Anet Needs someone to Talk to the Forums
I absolutely believe that the Devs and Community Team have every reason to expect to be treated respectfully, and I fully support their right to not engage with those who refuse to do so. So my advice to them would be…don’t.
But since they weren’t they felt the need to post this 9 months ago.
We are heroes. This is what we do!
RIP City of Heroes
RIP City of Heroes
I worked in retail management for 10 years. I had a lot of contact with customers. Sometimes, when you are trying to help a customer out, they misinterpret what you are trying to say and have a negative reaction. It happens. Sometimes it was the way I phrased something. Sometimes it was just that that particular customer was, well, kind of a jerk and would have been unhappy and complaining no matter what I did or said.
But I never said to myself, “Hey, you know what? Since a few customers react negatively and treat me poorly, I’m just not going to interact with any of my customers at all.”
Yet there are CS reps who do slide right into that berth and call it home. Because it’s a whole lot easier to deal with people when you put that distance between you and them and only interact with them when the job requires you to. I’ve had people teaching me how to do CS say quietly, and without stepping on corporate doctrine, how it was imperative you not get remotely attached to the users you’re talking to. “To them, you aren’t even a person.”
I keep seeing in various threads ad nauseum that ANet can’t possibly tell us anything because then people will take it as a “promise” and get mad if anything goes awry. And some people so, no doubt about it. But be honest, it is a small percentage of people that do this, and that does not justify excusing yourself from communicating with the rest of your customer base.
Hey, you know what? It is a small percentage of the forum posters or Reddit users. But do you want to know what else? They still show up every time to remind people about ‘broken promises’. There are people who still post here who have nothing better to do than slip in and remind people about “The Manifesto Lie” let alone how people always love to bring up the “scavenger hunt” . . . which was little more than a “that sounds like it could be cool, we’ll see what we can do”.
Don’t engage with the hostiles. Let the mods delete their posts and ban their accounts if necessary. Problem solved.
Not really, the really bad problem cases move to Reddit or elsewhere and wear “banned from the official forums for criticizing the game” as a badge of honor. Most just take to other platforms and decry how terrible the game has become because Nexon/Cash Shop/Living Story/Trahearne . . .
But using a small percentage of rude people to justify not communicating with everyone else is a flimsy excuse that I could not see working in any other kind of business/client relationship, and it shouldn’t be here, either.
Let’s step back and also note nobody from ANet said that’s why they don’t communicate more often. It’s a supposition from people here on the forums, which is a slightly reasonable one.
If you take a look at a timeframe though, you’ll see they pretty much didn’t talk much for the last block of time because they were launching China. I think I saw a dev comment to the effect of “been really busy with getting China done” . . .
And all this said, I still disagree with them “needing” to designate a target . . . I mean, an envoy to come to the forums and communicate. Why? I’ve seen too many times where one face gets to be the company’s rep on the forums and they get crucified for the job they have to do.
See the individual I referenced up-thread or his later replacement for an idea of what I mean.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
The difference is all the customers who took what you did wrong weren’t all talking to each other. And it does make a difference.
Yes, I suppose that’s a fair point. There is the “mob mentality” thing to consider. However, I’d also point out that I had people yelling at me right to my face, on the salesfloor, and in front of subordinates and other customers. If I was able to get through that, surely ANet employees can endure text on a monitor, especially if it is being moderated.
If the mods are doing their jobs and moderating out all the hostility, and the Dev or Community Team member is making sure not to engage with the hostile ones (so that the mods can more easily do their job of excising them from the thread) doesn’t that go a long way toward fixing the problem?
I do understand that things can get a bit dicey on the internets, but hey, I’m sure that anyone who has started a “We Can Has Mounts?” thread in General Discussion (and suffered through the pitchforks and torches brandished at them) managed to live through the ordeal.
I’m just saying there’s a balance. Many people here have excellent points, and I do see the merit in what’s being said about hostile forum members. I just think that there has to be some middle ground, no?
The difference is all the customers who took what you did wrong weren’t all talking to each other. And it does make a difference.
Yes, I suppose that’s a fair point. There is the “mob mentality” thing to consider. However, I’d also point out that I had people yelling at me right to my face, on the salesfloor, and in front of subordinates and other customers. If I was able to get through that, surely ANet employees can endure text on a monitor, especially if it is being moderated.
If the mods are doing their jobs and moderating out all the hostility, and the Dev or Community Team member is making sure not to engage with the hostile ones (so that the mods can more easily do their job of excising them from the thread) doesn’t that go a long way toward fixing the problem?
I do understand that things can get a bit dicey on the internets, but hey, I’m sure that anyone who has started a “We Can Has Mounts?” thread in General Discussion (and suffered through the pitchforks and torches brandished at them) managed to live through the ordeal.
I’m just saying there’s a balance. Many people here have excellent points, and I do see the merit in what’s being said about hostile forum members. I just think that there has to be some middle ground, no?
I don’t think it’s what Anet employees have to endure. What if those kittened off customers weren’t yelling on the sales floor but had the email addys of every single one of your customers going back to the opening of your store?
I don’t think it’s what Anet employees have to endure. What if those kittened off customers weren’t yelling on the sales floor but had the email addys of every single one of your customers going back to the opening of your store?
Not sure what you’re getting at. If you mean that they would contact the other customers and direct them to send me a nasty email, most of them wouldn’t. And anyone who did would have their email deleted and their address blocked.
Given that there will never be a day when someone on the internet isn’t being rude, it seems that you are now arguing in favor of ANet never saying anything on the forums, just in case someone should happen to respond rudely. Otherwise, what is the point of your debate with me?
Your OP suggested that ANet should be more vocal on the forums. I agree. Then other people suggested that they shouldn’t even bother because people will be mean, and mean people suck. So I made the point that yes, people do suck, but not everyone, and it’s not good business practice to decide not to communicate with any of your customers because a small percentage of them might be mean, and…suddenly you are arguing against that point?
I’m confused. Do you think ANet should communicate more, as per your OP, or not?
I don’t think it’s what Anet employees have to endure. What if those kittened off customers weren’t yelling on the sales floor but had the email addys of every single one of your customers going back to the opening of your store?
Not sure what you’re getting at. If you mean that they would contact the other customers and direct them to send me a nasty email, most of them wouldn’t. And anyone who did would have their email deleted and their address blocked.
Given that there will never be a day when someone on the internet isn’t being rude, it seems that you are now arguing in favor of ANet never saying anything on the forums, just in case someone should happen to respond rudely. Otherwise, what is the point of your debate with me?
Your OP suggested that ANet should be more vocal on the forums. I agree. Then other people suggested that they shouldn’t even bother because people will be mean, and mean people suck. So I made the point that yes, people do suck, but not everyone, and it’s not good business practice to decide not to communicate with any of your customers because a small percentage of them might be mean, and…suddenly you are arguing against that point?
I’m confused. Do you think ANet should communicate more, as per your OP, or not?
I think Anet should communicate more. I’m simply saying that it’s not a win/win situation. I think Anet is in a lose/lose situation.
If they don’t communicate they don’t care. If they do communicate they’re lying. That makes it easier not to communicate.
I’m saying it’s not that simple…but I still think they should.
Sorry, I disagree, overall players are a pretty whiny bunch, and if Anet says any one thing, people act as if it’s written in stone.
Players brought the lack of communication on themselves.
I’d much rather have the staff developing new content and features, and fixing bugs, then dealing with the large amount of unreasonable people and their ridiculous, beat-the-dead-horse-some-more topics on the forums.
I remember reading a thread where a developer answered someone’s question, then was immediately slapped in the face with a loaded question. Hilariously, this exact situation happened to me with someone I, and others, suspect is mentally handicapped.
I’d rather not risk anyone’s sanity just for interaction. I think the forum is well-contained as is, if “they” got their hands on a liaison it would be like a pinata at a Baseball camp.
We’ve had several threads started over this very topic over the last few months. Each ended with silence from ArenaNet. This one will be no different.
They know we want more communication from them. For whatever reason they’ve decided that they’re not going to communicate to the level that many of us want.
Is it right?
Kitten no.
But the sooner each of us accepts it as reality, the sooner we’ll stop expecting it and only being disappointed. Right now we’re just pounding on a brick wall and expecting it to turn into a human being with the ability to talk with us. Its not happening.
A surprise visit from a Dev would always be welcome, there is no doubt about that, but I’m no longer waiting for it. I will no longer expect it. I can’t afford to have any level of expectation of them, anymore.
ArenaNet has lowered the bar too far.
What do you guys really want ? “Communication” can mean anything.
You want Anet to comment on some threads but what do you really expect them to say.
Let’s take the weekly mount threads. Do you expect them to come in and say “we’re listening” ? Because that’d would mean that they are working on adding mounts and they surely won’t announce something like that through a forum post.
Or the megaserver thread. “We’re working on it” doesn’t mean anything until we get told what exactly they are planning.
This is their official forum. Of course they must have at least one person skimming through the threads and telling each team what’s happening. There’s no need for a pointless “we’re listening” post.
What do you guys really want ? “Communication” can mean anything.
You want Anet to comment on some threads but what do you really expect them to say.
Let’s take the weekly mount threads. Do you expect them to come in and say “we’re listening” ? Because that’d would mean that they are working on adding mounts and they surely won’t announce something like that through a forum post.
Hell no .. they want that they get the answer they want to hear.
So the “pro mount” faction wants to hear : yes .. you get mounts next week
and the “anti-mount” faction wants to hear : no mounts .. never.
Of course the other side will flame each of those answers. If they say we get mounts
but don’t when, or they say when but can not deliver in time, then also the pro mount
faction will flame them.
Any other answer would be flamed as :
“of course this answer says nothing at all .. why do you even wast your time .. typical ANet”
So .. that is more or less the situation .. and some of you really don’t understand why
they prefer to be silent ?
And btw.: i have seen the samm happening in nearly every other MMO .. the longer
the game was running, the more silent the devs got.
EVERY MMO is awesome until it is released then its unfinished. A month after release it just sucks.
Best MMOs are the ones that never make it. Therefore Stargate Online wins.
Best MMOs are the ones that never make it. Therefore Stargate Online wins.
I’ve been waiting for a thread like this to come up. I think this is a significant issue for ArenaNet, and should definitely be a part of their strategy going forward. Why?
Unless you are buying gems on the regular, you aren’t really a customer, you are a past customer. They’ve already got your money, and they delivered what you paid for, which is GW2 as it was exactly at that time, so what more do they owe you?
This is true, except All Forum users are potential customers – they all own the game, and are therefore the target market for any Gem Store items/upgrades. Coming up to the 2 year anniversary of release means GW2 is probably well into the tail end of its box sales (excluding China). So what should matter more to GW2 is establishing repeat business from those purchasing Gems. Customers buy products when they are happy with the service and see value in the goods. (You don’t shop at the same supermarket every week whilst continuing to talk to friends about how much you hate it)
Forum users are a small, vocal, and important subset of the player base. Why are they important? – Because they are vocal. Some will be keen to pass their views on to others – even when it may be an unpopular viewpoint, while others may be extremely knowledgeable about specific areas of the game and enjoy sharing that knowledge with others. They are the people who will also be the biggest vocal supporters of the game and most likely to share any official information on a subject.
I think the real problem is we have no real concept of where the game is going from here.
I think this is spot on, we currently have no real explanation of upcoming plans, which will foster uncertainty and disappointment. Just like if a company on wall street never announced any plans to its investors. Yes sometimes they might miss targets, but its still better to know what is being aimed for, even if it misses than to not know anything at all. Announcing plans, changes peoples mindset from uncertainty to hope. (Like the upcoming Ranger changes discussed in Ready Up! )
If Anet came in and said, look we understand certain people have problems with the megaserver, but new people coming in have a much higher stay in the game rate since it’s been implement (which I believe would naturally be the case) it’s an answer. They have those stats and we don’t.
Finally, I think this is important too, addressing the communities concerns like this would alleviate a lot of the negative feelings toward updates that people might disagree with. Having more sight on what the Devs intended and why the changes are valuable means we can make a more informed opinion.
I think any business that wants to keep customers happy has to accept that that also means at times making people unhappy. Only the Dev team can see the full impact of changes they make, and I know sometimes they won’t be at liberty to discuss the reasons. When they can though I think showing the intention and scope of their thinking will be beneficial for everyone.
As an example, this is a totally made up response about a hot potato issue on the forums:
Watchwork mining pick – example response
This is actually a really interesting case, we understand the frustrations of those who may have bought another endless mining pick, however we wanted to experiment with an item that contained a small perk to measure the impact it had on sales.
As a result, going forward it is likely that other endless gathering tools may come with additional perks. However, as a means to ensure these items also still provide value to those with existing tools, we are looking into the possibility of developing a wardrobe type system for tool animations and bonuses, where once unlocked, the player is able to choose between which animation is used and which bonus perk is applied to the gathering tool.
We can’t give a definite timescale on this, as for now the idea exists and we are only investigating the feasibility of it from a programming perspective.
(edited by Asyntyche.4827)
Yeah communication right now feels kidna slow for tha past few months.
While they address concerns to the LS2 and other parts here and there (I am not familiar with the other parts since I am mostly casually here for the story and world, aka PvE), they are mostly aknowledging a bug, or trying to “calm down” a bit.
However this is “all” (?). A red dev post is great, but there is rarely a follow up.
Right now the problem is not only with the lack of information from ANet but also the way they use their other mediums.
“Points of Interest”, the nice little webshow they are bringing every two weeks is mostly a mixture of “patting each other on the back” (which sadly happens too often in everything they put out. “you did amazing xyz…” Yes, we know about it, we have seen it, however the forum at this point is flooded with praise and concernes… they really need to get them sorted out first. Everything else feels just like an extended comercial.) and some little casual chit chat, with some “questions” thrown in.
Combine that “official” outlet with the lack of forum information and the whole “secrecy” in general (in other media, interviews, etc..) leaves us hanging blind.
“Ready up” is faring far better, though, since they tend to explain a lot more (from what have seen)
An offcial unoffical, who gives us the same information like Gaile Gray gives us at the moment.
We get notified what has resolved with her posts.
It would be nice to have someone informing us as well, maybe weekly, what ANet has “heard” from us.
Like:
Here are the contoveries of this week:
- Mounts: We hear you calling from them, but they are not in our design planning at the moment
- WvW is left behind: We heard your concern, WvW is actively worked on, however it is really hard to work in this constant changing enviroment, so the only thing we can ask for is your patience. I can however say, that there some things in the work, which still need to be tested though…
- etc..
Watchwork mining pick – example response
This is actually a really interesting case, we understand the frustrations of those who may have bought another endless mining pick, however we wanted to experiment with an item that contained a small perk to measure the impact it had on sales.
As a result, going forward it is likely that other endless gathering tools may come with additional perks. However, as a means to ensure these items also still provide value to those with existing tools, we are looking into the possibility of developing a wardrobe type system for tool animations and bonuses, where once unlocked, the player is able to choose between which animation is used and which bonus perk is applied to the gathering tool.
We can’t give a definite timescale on this, as for now the idea exists and we are only investigating the feasibility of it from a programming perspective.
And you think that answer would make anyone happy ?
Some folks want them to remove that pick → unhappy → flaming
Other want to know if they get refund for their other tools if we ever get a wardorbe,
i for example have 13 picks, 7 sickles and 9 axes.
Or they want to know if it even make sense to buy any of the other tools because
they feel cheated when there is suddenly a “better” tool
And so on .. in the end that answer will help nobody and make nobody happy, and so
some will again flame against it.
EVERY MMO is awesome until it is released then its unfinished. A month after release it just sucks.
Best MMOs are the ones that never make it. Therefore Stargate Online wins.
Best MMOs are the ones that never make it. Therefore Stargate Online wins.
Unreasonable people will always be unhappy, but I don’t think most people are unreasonable. In fact, I think most people are reasonable. They’re not usually the loud ones, but you know…there are other people here reading who aren’t posting.
Watchwork mining pick – example response
This is actually a really interesting case, we understand the frustrations of those who may have bought another endless mining pick, however we wanted to experiment with an item that contained a small perk to measure the impact it had on sales.
As a result, going forward it is likely that other endless gathering tools may come with additional perks. However, as a means to ensure these items also still provide value to those with existing tools, we are looking into the possibility of developing a wardrobe type system for tool animations and bonuses, where once unlocked, the player is able to choose between which animation is used and which bonus perk is applied to the gathering tool.
We can’t give a definite timescale on this, as for now the idea exists and we are only investigating the feasibility of it from a programming perspective.
And you think that answer would make anyone happy ?
Some folks want them to remove that pick -> unhappy -> flaming
Other want to know if they get refund for their other tools if we ever get a wardorbe,
i for example have 13 picks, 7 sickles and 9 axes.Or they want to know if it even make sense to buy any of the other tools because
they feel cheated when there is suddenly a “better” toolAnd so on .. in the end that answer will help nobody and make nobody happy, and so
some will again flame against it.
I don’t expect my attempt to solve a problem to be anywhere near accurate to what might be happening behind the wall of silence.
I also am aware that whatever happens in many cases there will be some people who are angry and some who a happy with any given outcome.
In this case there are a few different issues, like you address, those who purchased multiple copies of tools is a major one, and one that was made more complicated by the decision to make the gathering tools account bound.
All i’m trying to suggest is that there must be some strategy behind the scenes for these decisions, and having a bit more understanding of it would make us not feel quite so much like changes are being made by picking options out of a hat.
i dont think they should really post JUST to see we hear you, but they should post with overall plans, and try to understand the nature of the feedback being presented.
Its not easy dealing with irate customers, and handling customer expectations, but it really is a part of business. Communication brings you more than you lose. This is why virtually every other successful business out there discusses plans, overviews, releases teasers/promo s etc.
When is the last time you saw a movie without a trailer?
how long ahead of time did you know your favorite game was coming out? (years?)
what happens when you ask questions in a retail shop?
Businesses do this because its profitable, people who interact with a person tend to like them more, even if its bull. Yeah you get some salty people, but by and large you gain way more than you lose.
Sorry, I disagree, overall players are a pretty whiny bunch, and if Anet says any one thing, people act as if it’s written in stone.
Players brought the lack of communication on themselves.
I’d much rather have the staff developing new content and features, and fixing bugs, then dealing with the large amount of unreasonable people and their ridiculous, beat-the-dead-horse-some-more topics on the forums.
Darn customers are the bane of business, fersure! Who needs to know what THEY think!!
Unless you are buying gems on the regular, you aren’t really a customer, you are a past customer. They’ve already got your money, and they delivered what you paid for, which is GW2 as it was exactly at that time, so what more do they owe you?
.When and how much I spend is none of your concern, I’m sure Anet knows.
What defines a “customer” here isn’t your call.
Ok bud. Go ahead and get all defensive over nothing, no skin off my back. I was speaking from a general perspective on all players, not you in particular.
(edited by calyx.9086)
Unreasonable expectations will always have disappointment. I prefer A.Net work on the game than come in to the forums to coddle posters who feel they need their opinions validated by someone from A.Net.
For A.Net it is a lose/lose situation. They get banged on if they post (OH that is NOT what they said – the Manifesto is a great example) and get banged on if they don’t post. People can’t have it both ways.
Like:
Here are the contoveries of this week:
- Mounts: We hear you calling from them, but they are not in our design planning at the moment
- WvW is left behind: We heard your concern, WvW is actively worked on, however it is really hard to work in this constant changing enviroment, so the only thing we can ask for is your patience. I can however say, that there some things in the work, which still need to be tested though…
- etc..
I think WvW already got that kind of answer recently. And it was completely useless. “We’ve been working on things” oh no kitten ! Who knew ?
…
Of course they are working on it. They have teams for pretty much every aspect of the game (do they have a dungeon team ? I can’t recall what happened after the lead designer left).
But what the players want to know, is what is going to change and how. A “we like your idea” is useless if it doesn’t come with “and we’ll revamp it a bit to include it in the game”.
And whatever they think about mounts, or anything else, they will never completely brush off something. Because by saying “no” they are driving potential customers away. By being silent, the only harm done is having a mount thread every week.
Skipping through I did not see this mentioned and I feel it’s related – does anyone know whatever happened to the “Collaborative Development Initiative (CDI)”?
Last thing I remember was along the lines "sorry for the delay, it will be up ‘soon’ ".
“Whose Kitten is this?” – “It’s a Charr baby.”
“Whose Charr is this?”- “Ted’s.”
“Who’s Ted?”- “Ted’s dead, baby. Ted’s dead.”
“Whose Charr is this?”- “Ted’s.”
“Who’s Ted?”- “Ted’s dead, baby. Ted’s dead.”
Skipping through I did not see this mentioned and I feel it’s related – does anyone know whatever happened to the “Collaborative Development Initiative (CDI)”?
Last thing I remember was along the lines "sorry for the delay, it will be up ‘soon’ ".
There was a CDI for Rangers in the Ranger forums that mysteriously disappeared last month. About a week after it was removed we were told about the upcoming skill changes for Ranger and Engineer.
i dont think they should really post JUST to see we hear you, but they should post with overall plans, and try to understand the nature of the feedback being presented.
I disagree with this sentiment, primarily because of the above comment I made. I don’t think the forum will be any more pleased if they do this, because there’s already people who aren’t pleased Living Story is still being continued . . . who aren’t pleased X isn’t on the radar of upcoming material . . .
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
Apparently they are reading and responding in the forums
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Double-Black-Lion-Claim-Tickets/first#post4270577
Thanks for reporting this. I can confirm that the dates in the blog post are correct and we will be correcting the launcher to match soon. The added chance for Black Lion Tickets is through August 11, not the 14th.
Now if we could only get them to respond in topics that we have made suggestions in to improve the game
Now if we could only get them to respond in topics that we have made suggestions in to improve the game
And what do you want them to say ? “Cool suggestion” ?
In the end, it doesn’t matter if they find a suggestion “cool” if there’s absolutely no plans at all to include it in the game. And if they do plan to include it, they are just going to keep quiet because that’s how they work : they stay quiet until it’s nearly done and then over hype it when it’s almost there.
If you don’t understand something written in a blog post, if you have technical problems or file a bug report, they will more than likely answer.
If you have a suggestion or if you are voicing your opinion on anything, they aren’t going to bother posting a useless “we have people reading our own official forum”.
I agree that having a person on staff whose job was to interact with the general forums, to reassure, acknowledge, etc., would be a good idea. That said, and with all due respect to the rest of you, they’d have to pay me an awful lot of money to take that job.
I actually disagree. Not, of course, to the fact that ANet needs to actually speak to it’s player base. ANet needs that desperately. The part I disagree with is that it should be someone who is not actually working in development on the game. Getting a customer service rep or PR shill is the last thing they need. In fact, I’d actually say that someone who has no actual job in the development of the game doling out empty platitudes about how the player base is being listened to might actually be worse than the current cone of silence we’ve been placed under.
I actually disagree. Not, of course, to the fact that ANet needs to actually speak to it’s player base. ANet needs that desperately. The part I disagree with is that it should be someone who is not actually working in development on the game. Getting a customer service rep or PR shill is the last thing they need. In fact, I’d actually say that someone who has no actual job in the development of the game doling out empty platitudes about how the player base is being listened to might actually be worse than the current cone of silence we’ve been placed under.
This I definitely disagree with. Most programmers deal better with machines than people. Taking them away from stuff they need to do for the game is the wrong move. Those people are going to be paid a lot more than the person they need to do this.
The person that needs to do this needs to be social, intelligent, and have a calm demeanor first and foremost. They have to be able to take notes and talk to programmers, sure. But devs themselves shouldn’t be here to talk to us.
Whatever they generally have to say can go through a person the designate to speak for them. What’s wrong with a spokesman? That doesn’t automatically translate to a PR shill.
If they do communicate they’re lying.
Probably not as much of an issue if they communicated better. Unfortunately they now have a reputation for being less than honest in the eyes of some portion of both their own playerbase and the gaming/MMO community at large.
One’s statements are far more likely to be scrutinized closely, and have inconsistencies called out for possible dishonesty, if one has demonstrated dishonesty in the past.
Still don’t recall them out and out lying maliciously to the players, but hey, since the perception is apparently already there . . .
It’s like trying to explain how Kormir didn’t “steal” anything from the player in Nightfall. All I get is that darn Youtube link over and over.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
Can’t say I’ve ever really heard it argued either way about Kormir stealing/not stealing anything from players in NF.
I have, however, seen blatant falsehoods stated as truth by company reps. Maliciously ? Probably not. I am sure the goal was not malice but rather self interest.
I have, however, seen blatant falsehoods stated as truth by company reps. Maliciously ? Probably not. I am sure the goal was not malice but rather self interest.
Are we talking “we are increasing the chocolate ration to 2 grams from 4 grams” type falsehoods, or “McDonalds is delicious” type falsehoods?
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
Not going to search out the links again, but:
It was stated before launch that it was expected that we would have BiS gear by level 80.
It was subsequently stated, post launch, that it was never intended for us to have BiS gear that fast.
Changing their mind by saying, “we have determined that our original intention is not going to meet the needs of the game or the player base,” is one thing. To deny that the first statement was ever true means that either the first statement was a lie or the second one is.
We were told that grind would be reserved for cosmetics but not for stats.
The best stats are now gated behind grind.
“McDonalds is delicious,” isn’t a falsehood, its an opinion.
This is something that isn’t unique to Arena.net. Most companies are backing off on talking with their players, as they increasingly view it as a lose/lose proposition. It’s sad, it’s understandable, and it’s also a little stupid.
You don’t quell toxicity by running away and letting the trolls dominate the dialogue. Running away only encourages the trolls, and makes them think they’re right. If someone is kittening on your furniture, leaving the room isn’t going to make them stop.
Not going to search out the links again, but:
It was stated before launch that it was expected that we would have BiS gear by level 80.
It was subsequently stated, post launch, that it was never intended for us to have BiS gear that fast.
Yeah, I remember this chestnut. I also remember reading very very carefully over it and determining they really need to be more careful what they say and how they choose their words because then things like what you just said happen – and aren’t accurate.
Changing their mind by saying, “we have determined that our original intention is not going to meet the needs of the game or the player base,” is one thing. To deny that the first statement was ever true means that either the first statement was a lie or the second one is.
Or neither are, and it’s a complete fabrication of people who feel deceived without actually having a deception pulled on them. Happens all the time, and I deal with it at work a lot . . .
We were told that grind would be reserved for cosmetics but not for stats.
The best stats are now gated behind grind.
. . . said best stats not being remotely necessary to playing roughly 80% of the game, but hey why quibble over most of the game being completely able to be handled in greens when we can continue the fiction of Ascended being “necessary” because it’s best-in-slot?
“McDonalds is delicious,” isn’t a falsehood, its an opinion.
Which is demonstrably false. Ask anyone who has a good palate.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
You don’t quell toxicity by running away and letting the trolls dominate the dialogue. Running away only encourages the trolls, and makes them think they’re right. If someone is kittening on your furniture, leaving the room isn’t going to make them stop.
. . . if I come back with a loaded shotgun and say politely “please stop jumping on the couch” then leaving the room probably did make them stop.
One way or another.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
I will concede that it is entirely possible, though unlikely in my opinion, that Anet spokespersons were not aware of the content of the company’s marketing efforts.
. . . said best stats not being remotely necessary to playing roughly 80% of the game
Not necessarily accurate but sure lets say, for the sake of argument, that for most people and for the most part ascended gear is not necessary. I did not claim that the gear was necessary.
, but hey why quibble over most of the game being completely able to be handled in greens when we can continue the fiction of Ascended being “necessary” because it’s best-in-slot?
Which is of course completely irrelevant to the point that the claim was made and is not true. If I promise to give someone a hundred dollars to buy groceries then choose to not follow through on my promise the fact that the stated recipient does not need my money to buy groceries does not make my statement true.
Which is demonstrably false. Ask anyone who has a good palate.
Which merely proves that the individual with a supposedly, “good palate,” has an opinion about McDonalds. Again, opinion.
(edited by Ashen.2907)
I will concede that it is entirely possible, though unlikely in my opinion, that Anet spokespersons were not aware of the content of the company’s marketing efforts.
Not what I said, since we’re playing this particular game today . . .
I said they didn’t pick their words carefully, and I really think in the last year players have substituted words, terms, and such since “it means practically the same thing” until we hit a point where it no longer means the same thing. When these statements were made, Best-in-Slot was Legendary and not Exotic, by most people’s lexicons.
So when they said people acquired Legendary way faster than expected, people interpreted that as “Best-in-slot” and now you can see why this topic ticks me off anymore: it’s not spoken of accurately, and ANet spokespeople and devs didn’t phrase their words very carefully.
Which leads to them having to filter and craft responses so they don’t get called out for “that’s not what you said” when what the accuser is really saying is “that’s not what I understood”. And that, in turn leads into “they must be lying or being dishonest since they’re resorting to PR speak”.
. . . said best stats not being remotely necessary to playing roughly 80% of the game
Not necessarily accurate but sure lets say, for the sake of argument, that for most people and for the most part ascended gear is not necessary. I did not claim that the gear was necessary.
Well no, I’m sure 80% isn’t accurate but I backed it down from 95% when I realized more people think gear means something in WvW.
, but hey why quibble over most of the game being completely able to be handled in greens when we can continue the fiction of Ascended being “necessary” because it’s best-in-slot?
Which is of course completely irrelevant to the point that the claim was made and is not true. If I promise to give someone a hundred dollars to buy groceries then choose to not follow through on my promise the fact that the stated recipient does not need my money to buy groceries does not make my statement true.
That’s a pretty analogy. What does it have to do with what they said again?
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
Not going to search out the links again, but:
It was stated before launch that it was expected that we would have BiS gear by level 80.
It was subsequently stated, post launch, that it was never intended for us to have BiS gear that fast.
Changing their mind by saying, “we have determined that our original intention is not going to meet the needs of the game or the player base,” is one thing. To deny that the first statement was ever true means that either the first statement was a lie or the second one is.
We were told that grind would be reserved for cosmetics but not for stats.
The best stats are now gated behind grind.
“McDonalds is delicious,” isn’t a falsehood, its an opinion.
We were told before launch that this was an iterative company that changed things if they found they weren’t working. If something wasn’t working in their opinion they were always going to change it.
And there are 300 people in the company. I’m sure there are people who are antigrind in the company and people who aren’t. I’m sure there are factions of people who want different things. No company ever really speaks with one voice.
We know this is an MMO and things change. We’re not getting a new tier of gear every 3-4 months like other games.
Companies go into things with intentions and then something happens and they change what they do. That’s how MMOs work. If you don’t expect that at this point, I’m not sure what to tell you.
I think Anet should communicate more. I’m simply saying that it’s not a win/win situation. I think Anet is in a lose/lose situation.
Anet (and other mmo devs) will ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS be in a lose/lose situation. No matter what any of them do, someone will be angry and rant. If they implement one thing, it’ll kitten off someone else. If they try to then please that person, then another person will get kittened.
Getting feedback from the community is great, but players aren’t so much as giving feedback, but DEMANDING things to be implemented or else the game sucks. I sorta blame this on Indy devs and more alpha launches where devs work closely with the players to start the game. And while the revs can ask for new ideas when the game launches, the players should feel entitled to it anymore.
Think of it as this: during the alpha beta whatever cycle, the devs are the bicycle and the players are training wheels. The players are there to help the devs and catch them if they start to faulter.
But once the game launches, the training wheels come off. And while now they are riding on their own, once or twice they may look to the training wheels for assistance again, but the training wheels need to acknowledge that they aren’t needed as much for developement anymore.
I think Anet should communicate more. I’m simply saying that it’s not a win/win situation. I think Anet is in a lose/lose situation.
Anet (and other mmo devs) will ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS be in a lose/lose situation. No matter what any of them do, someone will be angry and rant. If they implement one thing, it’ll kitten off someone else. If they try to then please that person, then another person will get kittened.
Getting feedback from the community is great, but players aren’t so much as giving feedback, but DEMANDING things to be implemented or else the game sucks. I sorta blame this on Indy devs and more alpha launches where devs work closely with the players to start the game. And while the revs can ask for new ideas when the game launches, the players should feel entitled to it anymore.
Think of it as this: during the alpha beta whatever cycle, the devs are the bicycle and the players are training wheels. The players are there to help the devs and catch them if they start to faulter.
But once the game launches, the training wheels come off. And while now they are riding on their own, once or twice they may look to the training wheels for assistance again, but the training wheels need to acknowledge that they aren’t needed as much for developement anymore.
Excellent post and goes to the heart of the problem. The other thing is posters won’t admit this is what they are doing either.
Not going to search out the links again, but:
It was stated before launch that it was expected that we would have BiS gear by level 80.
Please seek out the link, else i say it is simly not true.
I can’t remember they ever used words like “BiS” in anything i read.
EVERY MMO is awesome until it is released then its unfinished. A month after release it just sucks.
Best MMOs are the ones that never make it. Therefore Stargate Online wins.
Best MMOs are the ones that never make it. Therefore Stargate Online wins.
Not going to search out the links again, but:
It was stated before launch that it was expected that we would have BiS gear by level 80.
It was subsequently stated, post launch, that it was never intended for us to have BiS gear that fast.
Changing their mind by saying, “we have determined that our original intention is not going to meet the needs of the game or the player base,” is one thing. To deny that the first statement was ever true means that either the first statement was a lie or the second one is.
We were told that grind would be reserved for cosmetics but not for stats.
The best stats are now gated behind grind.
“McDonalds is delicious,” isn’t a falsehood, its an opinion.
So is considering ascended a grind. That’s your opinion. It takes 5 minutes out of your day once you buy the silk and other mats you haven’t managed to salvage or loot, plus laurels for your dailies. Time-gated? Yes, for sure? A grind? Absolutely not.
John Smith in the Black Lion section is doing an excellent job, by the way. He’s giving insight to the economics of the game, and players are engaging.
It’s fantastic to see that after epic-fail silence from 99% of the forums.
What’s more, instead of offering platitudes and vagueries, he’ll actually go up to the limit that policy allows him to talk about, barring non-disclosure information, of course.
That is the kind of thing we’d like to see. Even a simple “we’re working on something we can’t disclose” would send relief through many who are just waiting on some kind of response. As for the rest of them, foo on ‘em. They’ll complain about anything, anyway, so it’s in the game’s best interest to ignore the more selfish of their responses. Shake it off, as it were. =P
Many alts; handle it!
“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632
“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632
Pretty much anyone who’s not me. lol
Something that’s a cross between public relations and customer service. Someone who can help to mollify irate fans, or at least assure them their concerns have been listened to.
Not someone that works at Anet now that needs to take time out of their busy schedule. Not moderators. Not a developer.
If people’s complaints are being heard, Anet needs to say so…not just once in a while. They need to keep saying so. Otherwise, people will simply feel disenfranchised.
Yes, I agree, they need to interact us with us more there’s been hardly anything for some time now.
Perhaps if they created a position of a Community Manager who’s main job is to address the Forum concerns and community in general?
Like a community coordinator? Oh wait, we had one but they let her go because her contract expired. /facepalm
Anyway, I agree, communication would be really good at this point. I quit spending real money on this game for two reasons. The lack of expansions and the lack of communication. I hope one day ANET comes to their senses. I’m done supporting this game until if/when things get better.
Not going to search out the links again, but:
It was stated before launch that it was expected that we would have BiS gear by level 80.
Please seek out the link, else i say it is simly not true.
I can’t remember they ever used words like “BiS” in anything i read.
Colin or Eric said it in an interview. It really was said. I don’t know how easy it would be to find the link, because there’s no text search feature for videos.
Edit: That said, so what? It’s an MMO. They found too many people not staying and made the changes necessary to keep the game going. It’s what MMOs do.
Sorry my bump caused an argument. I really want this game to get better. @Vayne, I actually admire your level head, please don’t get this thread shut down/deleted.
There’s not much point. The most involved members of the community and the most knowledgeable were mostly perma banned from the forums a long time ago, or temp banned so many times they stopped coming back. What you’re left with isn’t really worth anet listening to.
Not going to search out the links again, but:
It was stated before launch that it was expected that we would have BiS gear by level 80.
It was subsequently stated, post launch, that it was never intended for us to have BiS gear that fast.
Changing their mind by saying, “we have determined that our original intention is not going to meet the needs of the game or the player base,” is one thing. To deny that the first statement was ever true means that either the first statement was a lie or the second one is.
We were told that grind would be reserved for cosmetics but not for stats.
The best stats are now gated behind grind.
“McDonalds is delicious,” isn’t a falsehood, its an opinion.
We were told before launch that this was an iterative company that changed things if they found they weren’t working. If something wasn’t working in their opinion they were always going to change it.
And there are 300 people in the company. I’m sure there are people who are antigrind in the company and people who aren’t. I’m sure there are factions of people who want different things. No company ever really speaks with one voice.
We know this is an MMO and things change. We’re not getting a new tier of gear every 3-4 months like other games.
Companies go into things with intentions and then something happens and they change what they do. That’s how MMOs work. If you don’t expect that at this point, I’m not sure what to tell you.
None of that addressed Ashen’s point. Forgive me for speaking for someone else, but his/her point WAS NOT that the direction changed, but rather ANet’s deceptive position that no change occurred and claiming the original statement was never made.
It’s like someone saying “My favorite food is pie” in June and then in July saying “My favorite food is cake.” When pressed about what caused the change, the person responds “I never said pie was my favorite.”
I’ve addressed this in other places before, and it’s not really on topic for this thread, but to make it short, who says what depends often on who you ask. We get little fast, truncated answers from people asking casually, not long involved detailed answers.
It’s entirely possible that they were going to have another tier before launch and didn’t get to put it in. I’m convinced the game launched early to get out before MoP and that’s why it was in the state it was when it came out…incomplete. This happens with lots of games.
Now, those involved in those conversations can say sure we planned to have this new tier, we thought about it. To another person who wasn’t as heavily involved in those convos, or came online after the plan was pushed back abandoned, they’d have a different recollection. Hell, I have a different recollection of things from my wife even though we were both there.
No one is researching answers to stuff before casual interviews which is where some of this info came from. Human memory? Not really all that accurate.
Fans hang on every single word Anet says, and then they memorize it, whether Anet employees are talking casually or not. People forget stuff all the time. A year or two after something happens, if someone asks a question, discrepancies in answers are bound to happen. That’s why historians want corroborating evidence.
It’s all very well and nice to say this person lied. People get stuff wrong all the time. That’s what makes us people. I wish we’d hold devs to the same standards we hold ourselves.
Again, you totally missed the point.
The problem doesn’t lie with ANet changing direction or priorities. That’s expected.
The problem lies with them denying they ever made very clearly documented statements to begin with.
If you have to try and type a 4 paragraph explanation of why that’s somehow okay, you might as well admit to yourself you’re just engaging in mental gymnastics.
Not going to search out the links again, but:
It was stated before launch that it was expected that we would have BiS gear by level 80.
Please seek out the link, else i say it is simly not true.
I can’t remember they ever used words like “BiS” in anything i read.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-09-27-guild-wars-2-preview?page=3
“Eurogamer: How are you handling endgame loot – will we be farming bosses?
Colin Johanson: Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base. The rare stuff becomes the really awesome looking armours. It’s all about collecting the unique looking stuff and collecting all the other rare collectable items in the game: armour pieces, potentially different potions – a lot of that is still up in the air and we’ll finalise a lot of those reward systems as we get closer to release. And those come off of things like the bosses at the end of dungeons – the raids."
Best statistical loot = BIS where I come from.