Guild Wars 2

This actually worked very well with Sony during development and launch of EQN Landmark, and during the on-going development of EQ Next.

With Landmark, the players/fans felt engaged, and the Devs were actively talking to the players. Yes, there were times when the players disagreed, but the Devs took the time to explain the rationale behind the decision. And they still had plenty of time to get their work done.

You didn’t have that feeling of “are the Devs even listening?” You knew they were. They might not agree with you, but you knew exactly where they stood.

Having ANet throw out the “wall of silence” is an excellent suggestion. The players wouldn’t have the feelings of resentment that they do now when they feel they aren’t being heard. A quick “we’re listening” every so often doesn’t cut it.

That was probably the best part of Landmark (for me): really feeling like you had input in the development of the game.

Don’t knock it based on armchair theories until you’ve actually experienced it. It would do ANet a world of good.

Edit: Oh, and Landmark is also a free to play game, and it doesn’t have an in-game shop (or it didn’t at the time), so the “they can’t without a subscription” excuse won’t fly either.

I think the players felt engaged during development of Guild Wars 2. There seems to be lots of posts mentioned how ‘the Devs used to be more communicative’.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

I think the players felt engaged during development of Guild Wars 2. There seems to be lots of posts mentioned how ‘the Devs used to be more communicative’.

I have seen that type of post in almost every game I have played. I am not sure if it is because of good old days thinking or if every game there comes a point where it is more trouble to engage than to focus efforts elsewhere.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

I think the players felt engaged during development of Guild Wars 2. There seems to be lots of posts mentioned how ‘the Devs used to be more communicative’.

The difference between Sony and ANet is that Sony didn’t suddenly stop the dialogue after Landmark launched. In fact, they became more active and responsive. ANet did the opposite. They clammed up.

@Yargash Not every game. Sony deliberately set out to go against that trend with Landmark, and they succeeded. The response from the players was overwhelmingly positive. People didn’t feel like posting an idea/suggestion/feedback was a lost cause.

Sony went against the trend…which makes it a trend. So one game does something different and suddenly this game is a problem..particularly when it’s doing what most games are doing?

And you know, I think Anet should buck the trend too, but it’s too early to see where that trend will end up leading Sony.

Mind you I like what they’re doing with Landmark, part of why I made this thread.

Yargesh.4965:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

I think the players felt engaged during development of Guild Wars 2. There seems to be lots of posts mentioned how ‘the Devs used to be more communicative’.

I have seen that type of post in almost every game I have played. I am not sure if it is because of good old days thinking or if every game there comes a point where it is more trouble to engage than to focus efforts elsewhere.

I suspect it’s that during betas and such (e.g. pre-release) devs have to be more communicative with the playerbase because they are wanting to iron out as many major problems as possible.

But once they have an established, working game, they don’t feel any need to engage, outside of the occasional post.

You also get different/smaller teams that you’re engaging with. A lot of companies will hire tons of temp devs for big development pushes and then they’ll keep on payroll a team that is relatively small by comparison.

I would not compare this with Sony in regards to Landmark. Landmark is a totally different animal, if then compare it to EQN – there it will remain to be seen how many of those round tables make it to the game at all, at start, a year after or where the idea has changed again because of this and that.

Rouven.7409:

I would not compare this with Sony in regards to Landmark. Landmark is a totally different animal, if then compare it to EQN – there it will remain to be seen how many of those round tables make it to the game at all, at start, a year after or where the idea has changed again because of this and that.

In the sense that it’s a game that was developed and has a player base, they are open for comparison, but I get what you’re saying. I still think ANet could incorporate the open dialogue component in GW2.

@Vayne: wishful thinking, I know, but if more companies went against that trend, then the new trend would be open dialogue with players. Companies think they know what players want, but do they ever stop and ask the players? Nope. Mind readers, all of them (ha).

And just because every other company does it, does that make it better? ANet has a history of bucking trends. They should make the silence trend one of them.

Pretty sure the devs are just sick of getting trash talked:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Bank-of-the-mists/first#post4278199

Dahkeus.8243:

Pretty sure the devs are just sick of getting trash talked:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Bank-of-the-mists/first#post4278199

This is the dark underbelly of the coin. Not that your linked example is anything truly atrocious, but devs getting verbally harassed/abused by players is a real problem in the game industry.

It’s a two-sided problem; companies treating players like numbers and players treating devs like punching bags. Which is sad because a lot of devs and players just want to treat people like human beings, but the rude players and the uncaring companies make it worse for everybody.

Dahkeus.8243:

Pretty sure the devs are just sick of getting trash talked:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Bank-of-the-mists/first#post4278199

It happens. Is it how it should be? No. Tempers get flustered, and people say things they shouldn’t. The problem is: going silent only makes the problem worse. With silence, the players have ammunition now rather than just flaring tempers.

You reminded me of something else that Sony Devs did on Landmark’s forums. When a player crossed the line, the Devs were by no means afraid to set the record straight on where the door was, and some were shown that door. That sort of behavior didn’t last long (players crossing the line into nonconstructive insults). Players learned to keep it civil and constructive. Players were still allowed to vent frustrations, but personal attacks were not tolerated, and the Devs were not afraid to bare fangs when necessary.

So if players are abusive, they should be permabanned by the forums. I get angry at stuff too, but I wouldn’t abuse a developer or even another forum members. The most you could say is that if someone annoys me I might get snarky…for which I get infracted.

Real abuse should be punishable by a ban, and then the rest of us could have our communication.

This entire thread is rediculous – half of it is bandying definitions in attempt for each ‘side’ of the argument to squirm out of accusations.

Let’s look at the facts.. pre launch they touted a more casual anti-grind design and cosmetic progression. At launch they had this. Two months after launch they tossed the apparent intention aside to put in an obviously hastily conceived gear-grind for max stats. They attempted to PR it into acceptance.

Why do I say obviously hastily conceived?

1. Because they just finished this new gear tier more than a year after launch.
2. The first iteration of it was so bad that it caused enormous uproar
3. The FOTM level progression it was linked to was extremely unfriendly when it was first released, apparently by lack of forethought
4. They cannibalized the ‘worth’ of the cosmetic system that was in place at launch – there so many nice, intuitive ways to achieve cool looks in exotic gear that are now relatively worthless.

The game at launch had systems in place that were obviously intended to be ‘the end game’ – exotic gear scattered all over the freaking place, LOTS of skins. I can not believe it was all intended from the beginning to all be a ‘stepping stone’ to a gear tier with one single look.

In addition, the ways to get that exotic gear were CLEAN. They were simple, easy to understand systems – karma, dungeon tokens, pvp tokens. What’s been put into place since except a hodgepodge of complicated methods to get ascended gear that’s obviously reaching deep into the barrel? You have to track the crap you have to accumulate on a spreadsheet to understand where you are in the process!

That’s why I think it was a hasty retreat to a different course and not the original intention: the sheer clumsiness of the execution. Not to mention how much time it took to put it all together!

Let’s not fudge words. Let’s not argue over definitions between god danged stupid stuff like the difference between ‘bis’ and ‘best statistical’. When an engineer announces his plans to put the wings on the plane in a certain orientation – and after it’s gone through a test flight, takes them off and puts them on backwards with duct tape – there’s obviously been a change of plans. Any argument to the contrary is sheer obfuscation.

While I feel part of it is personal “abuse”/attacks during their attempts to converse, it’s more about every little word they type gets used at some point in the future to further someone’s torch and pitchfork agenda (like a quote from a 2011 interview being used to call Devs liars 3 years later….).

Also, we have no idea WHAT the Devs are being told by their bosses that can be said or not said here. (and from the above examples, I’m guessing not much). If they can’t say anything 100% for sure, what do they gain by saying anything at all (even if they CAN say anything at all)?

Lheimroo.2947:

This entire thread is rediculous – half of it is bandying definitions in attempt for each ‘side’ of the argument to squirm out of accusations.

Let’s look at the facts.. pre launch they touted a more casual anti-grind design and cosmetic progression. At launch they had this. Two months after launch they tossed the apparent intention aside to put in an obviously hastily conceived gear-grind for max stats. They attempted to PR it into acceptance.

Why do I say obviously hastily conceived?

1. Because they just finished this new gear tier more than a year after launch.
2. The first iteration of it was so bad that it caused enormous uproar
3. The FOTM level progression it was linked to was extremely unfriendly when it was first released, apparently by lack of forethought
4. They cannibalized the ‘worth’ of the cosmetic system that was in place at launch – there so many nice, intuitive ways to achieve cool looks in exotic gear that are now relatively worthless.

The game at launch had systems in place that were obviously intended to be ‘the end game’ – exotic gear scattered all over the freaking place, LOTS of skins. I can not believe it was all intended from the beginning to all be a ‘stepping stone’ to a gear tier with one single look.

In addition, the ways to get that exotic gear were CLEAN. They were simple, easy to understand systems – karma, dungeon tokens, pvp tokens. What’s been put into place since except a hodgepodge of complicated methods to get ascended gear that’s obviously reaching deep into the barrel? You have to track the crap you have to accumulate on a spreadsheet to understand where you are in the process!

That’s why I think it was a hasty retreat to a different course and not the original intention: the sheer clumsiness of the execution.

Let’s not fudge words. Let’s not argue over definitions between god danged stupid stuff like the difference between ‘bis’ and ‘best statistical’. When an engineer announces his plans to put the wings on the plane in a certain orientation – and after it’s gone through a test flight, takes them off and puts them on backwards with duct tape – there’s obviously been a change of plans. Any argument to the contrary is sheer obfuscation.

There are a few shortcomings in your post, however.

First and foremost, no one said they were going to introduce the new tier of gear as they ended up introducing it. They only said they’d always planned another tier of gear. That’s a big difference.

I’m not claiming they didn’t change direction. I’ve always said they did. But that doesn’t mean they lied when they said they always intended a tier of gear above exotics.

But saying that they wouldn’t have had just one skin for it is the real error in the thought process. Look at racial armors, which are NOT exotics. The idea has always been to unlock the skins and get people to use transmutation stones.

Brother Grimm.5176:

While I feel part of it is personal “abuse”/attacks during their attempts to converse, it’s more about every little word they type gets used at some point in the future to further someone’s torch and pitchfork agenda (like a quote from a 2011 interview being used to call Devs liars 3 years later….).

Also, we have no idea WHAT the Devs are being told by their bosses that can be said or not said here. (and from the above examples, I’m guessing not much). If they can’t say anything 100% for sure, what do they gain by saying anything at all (even if they CAN say anything at all)?

Good point. It’s a big part of gaming forum culture for people to “lobby” for certain ideas because they want the game to be X way.

And although some great arguments come from it, there’s also a lot of bullkitten rationalizations on all sides and liberal use of dev quotes to support arguments one way or another.

I feel like if Anet was giving more “yes/no/maybe” feedback, then the forum community would be less likely to attempt to lobby. With little to no feedback, there’s that feeling like, “If I just push my argument loud enough and long enough, a dev is bound to see it and make the game into Y instead of X.”

But yes, you’re right that your average dev probably can’t say much. I imagine the game director has the most know-how for what can and can’t be said. If he isn’t super busy directing the game, he would be the ideal person to give these yes/no/maybe answers. I’ve seen it done in other MMOs (from the game director) and it was very much appreciated; he also had claws, which helped for those moments when people were being a bit too snarky.

Actually, I guess I shouldn’t speak in the past tense, cause that game is still going strong AFAIK.

Vayne.8563:

There are a few shortcomings in your post, however.

First and foremost, no one said they were going to introduce the new tier of gear as they ended up introducing it. They only said they’d always planned another tier of gear. That’s a big difference.

I’m not claiming they didn’t change direction. I’ve always said they did. But that doesn’t mean they lied when they said they always intended a tier of gear above exotics.

But saying that they wouldn’t have had just one skin for it is the real error in the thought process. Look at racial armors, which are NOT exotics. The idea has always been to unlock the skins and get people to use transmutation stones.

I still say the number of methods and skins in the exotic gear tier is too great to have been anything but intended to be the final goal – it’s a sheer matter of scale. You dig up a 300 meter square building with gold decor and walls 2 meters thick, it belonged to royalty or aristocracy, QED. It ain’t no villager’s shanty house.

What’s most objectionable about it to me is what others in this thread have mentioned – not the mere fact of the direction change, but the clumsy and disingenuous way it was communicated.

I think perhaps ‘disingenuous’ is a better word for it than lying. Lying is something that depends on technicalities in language. Disingenuous, meanwhile, meaning they didn’t adhere to the spirit of the words. I think it’s fairly obvious they wheedled. And played definition games. Basically they tried a very immature thing – a kid with his hand in the cookie jar, twisting on his heels, trying to explain how he didn’t INTEND to eat the cookie just this moment, therefore it’s okay for him to have it in his possession until he’s permitted to eat it. That sort of deal.

The communication around the whole subject was clumsy and came out feeling false on multiple levels even if arguably within the definitions of previous statements. And it’s not like we haven’t seen companies skewer themselves like this before: making obviously false statements to sell goods, getting caught in it, then being utterly and humanly AWFUL at fixing it, chiefly by failing to admit publicly to error.

Lheimroo.2947:

The communication around the whole subject was clumsy and came out feeling false on multiple levels even if arguably within the definitions of previous statements. And it’s not like we haven’t seen companies skewer themselves like this before: making obviously false statements to sell goods, getting caught in it, then being utterly and humanly AWFUL at fixing it, chiefly by failing to admit publicly to error.

I have no idea whether what’s being discussed here was actually a miscommunication, but I would like to point out that when companies talk to the public, it’s basically their job to look like they know what they’re doing. I mean, it’s one thing to apologize for an obvious error that the company can quickly fix, but to admit that their plans went in a different direction than originally intended is kind of like saying, “Whoops, we’re bad at being true to our word. Please don’t trust us in the future.”

I love honesty as much as the next guy, but I don’t think my confidence in a company would go up if they admitted to mucking up their vision, or changing it in a big way. Especially if they were in a position where “fixing” that vision would require a massive amount of work – cause then I’d know I’m basically stuck with their failure.

So yeah… if it was a miscommunication, then I think a little word twisting hurts less than the truth in this sort of scenario.

Lheimroo.2947:

Vayne.8563:

There are a few shortcomings in your post, however.

First and foremost, no one said they were going to introduce the new tier of gear as they ended up introducing it. They only said they’d always planned another tier of gear. That’s a big difference.

I’m not claiming they didn’t change direction. I’ve always said they did. But that doesn’t mean they lied when they said they always intended a tier of gear above exotics.

But saying that they wouldn’t have had just one skin for it is the real error in the thought process. Look at racial armors, which are NOT exotics. The idea has always been to unlock the skins and get people to use transmutation stones.

I still say the number of methods and skins in the exotic gear tier is too great to have been anything but intended to be the final goal – it’s a sheer matter of scale. You dig up a 300 meter square building with gold decor and walls 2 meters thick, it belonged to royalty or aristocracy, QED. It ain’t no villager’s shanty house.

What’s most objectionable about it to me is what others in this thread have mentioned – not the mere fact of the direction change, but the clumsy and disingenuous way it was communicated.

I think perhaps ‘disingenuous’ is a better word for it than lying. Lying is something that depends on technicalities in language. Disingenuous, meanwhile, meaning they didn’t adhere to the spirit of the words. I think it’s fairly obvious they wheedled. And played definition games. Basically they tried a very immature thing – a kid with his hand in the cookie jar, twisting on his heels, trying to explain how he didn’t INTEND to eat the cookie just this moment, therefore it’s okay for him to have it in his possession until he’s permitted to eat it. That sort of deal.

The communication around the whole subject was clumsy and came out feeling false on multiple levels even if arguably within the definitions of previous statements. And it’s not like we haven’t seen companies skewer themselves like this before: making obviously false statements to sell goods, getting caught in it, then being utterly and humanly AWFUL at fixing it, chiefly by failing to admit publicly to error.

Actually I disagree completely because it was a question asked in an interview without preparation. There’s a difference between couching stuff in dipolmatic terms and saying screw you we changed it. No company would do that. What they did say was likely true.

I don’t know how many cons you’ve been to, but they’re very busy and you don’t get a lot of sleep. I’ve been on panels as guests at cons and you just perform. Sometimes well, sometimes not as well. This wasn’t some prepared statement. It was someone put on the spot and spouting off an answer, without too much forethought.

Vayne.8563:

Actually I disagree completely because it was a question asked in an interview without preparation. There’s a difference between couching stuff in dipolmatic terms and saying screw you we changed it. No company would do that. What they did say was likely true.

I don’t know how many cons you’ve been to, but they’re very busy and you don’t get a lot of sleep. I’ve been on panels as guests at cons and you just perform. Sometimes well, sometimes not as well. This wasn’t some prepared statement. It was someone put on the spot and spouting off an answer, without too much forethought.

I’m not drawing any evidence from the statements at this point.

I’m drawing my conclusions from what was put into the game. At launch – simple systems for attaining max stat gear. After launch – complex, clumsy systems for attaining grind-based gear that took a year to be implemented in their entirety.

The statements made before launch could be erased from history and I would still be asking what is UP with that change in direction. I would still be calling it a bait and switch. And the clumsiness of the post-FOTM communication on the subject would remain.

For me the actions speak far louder. For you, you’re willing to write excuses into interviews regardless of the fact that what was said in the interview turned out precisely accurate on launch day.

Lheimroo.2947:

Vayne.8563:

Actually I disagree completely because it was a question asked in an interview without preparation. There’s a difference between couching stuff in dipolmatic terms and saying screw you we changed it. No company would do that. What they did say was likely true.

I don’t know how many cons you’ve been to, but they’re very busy and you don’t get a lot of sleep. I’ve been on panels as guests at cons and you just perform. Sometimes well, sometimes not as well. This wasn’t some prepared statement. It was someone put on the spot and spouting off an answer, without too much forethought.

I’m not drawing any evidence from the statements at this point.

I’m drawing my conclusions from what was put into the game. At launch – simple systems for attaining max stat gear. After launch – complex, clumsy systems for attaining grind-based gear that took a year to be implemented in their entirety.

The statements made before launch could be erased from history and I would still be asking what is UP with that change in direction. I would still be calling it a bait and switch. And the clumsiness of the post-FOTM communication on the subject would remain.

For me the actions speak far louder. For you, you’re willing to write excuses into interviews regardless of the fact that what was said in the interview turned out precisely accurate on launch day.

No, you miss my point. No one has said they haven’t changed direction. People came into this thread and said Anet lied and did something bad. You’re saying they’ve been disingenuous. Based on a single interview for which they likely how no preparation.

If people wouldn’t say they lied and talked about how bad Anet’s behavior was on this point, there wouldn’t even be a conversation.

I’ve always seen Ascended gear as targeting the min/max hard core crowd and not for the general masses. They threw them a bone and made kitten sure it would take a while for them to get it, requiring them to level their crafting and make it themselves. You can’t buy them on the TP or the basic ascended materials, requiring you to get them from certain events. The bar for owning a set is high if you absolutely need the to have the very best gear.

But to the audience the game was originally aimed at, nothing has changed from my PoV. I can get exotics from either the TP for gold or temples for karma.

My characters don’t need to have the penultimate gear for their class. I’m not a PvPer and the times I play WvW I go expecting to be owned since my keyboard/mouse skills aren’t FPS caliber. The smallish boost from ascended gear won’t help survive any better.

And since they haven’t announced either a level increase or yet another level of gear above ascended, I’m content with what I have. To me the whole ascended debacle was a tempest in a teapot.

I have more of a problem with the min/max hard core crowd controlling the bulk of the PUGs for dungeons insisting on specific gear, skill and trait loadouts. It’s like going to a public basketball court and finding out the crowd already there are only letting guys over 6ft or the ball handling skills of Nate Robinson play.

To be fair, they did have th CDI posts. Then they stopped dead cold with those, for whatever reasons.

Vayne.8563:

No, you miss my point. No one has said they haven’t changed direction. People came into this thread and said Anet lied and did something bad. You’re saying they’ve been disingenuous. Based on a single interview for which they likely how no preparation.

If people wouldn’t say they lied and talked about how bad Anet’s behavior was on this point, there wouldn’t even be a conversation.

No, no. Once again, I’m not relying on the interview. I really don’t care about it.

The game changed tone dramatically on the FOTM/Lost Shores patch day. And then they wheedled about it and tried to claim it hadn’t really.

Forget the interview. It’s worthless red herring at this point. I liked the game almost without reservation from launch day until Lost Shores. Then.. I had enormous enough reservations about the change that I actually got a refund.

Bought it back later for half off – and didn’t spend money in the gem store again until they had implemented real alternate methods that were less painful to attain this stupid new gear.

Since the even more painful new armor crafting has come in, no money from me. Since the traits changes have come in, no money from me.

They’ve essentially lost me as a customer; not because of what they said but what they DID. The fact that they were ‘disingenuous’ is just a black icing on this cake for me. As far as I’m concerned the CDI thread on progression was a far worse example of ‘disingenuousness’; to put something like that up and then to go cold-fish silent forever on it? Have the only visible result of it be the horribly mucky new trait system, visibly designed with the exact same ‘lets waste their time!’ mentality as the ascended gear was? Horrible.

Do I want improved communication? Yer kitten right I do. I’d appreciate it more if they gave any sign that they actually want me as a customer any more.

Sethren.8472:

This actually worked very well with Sony during development and launch of EQN Landmark, and during the on-going development of EQ Next.

With Landmark, the players/fans felt engaged, and the Devs were actively talking to the players. Yes, there were times when the players disagreed, but the Devs took the time to explain the rationale behind the decision. And they still had plenty of time to get their work done.

You didn’t have that feeling of “are the Devs even listening?” You knew they were. They might not agree with you, but you knew exactly where they stood.

Having ANet throw out the “wall of silence” is an excellent suggestion. The players wouldn’t have the feelings of resentment that they do now when they feel they aren’t being heard. A quick “we’re listening” every so often doesn’t cut it.

That was probably the best part of Landmark (for me): really feeling like you had input in the development of the game.

Don’t knock it based on armchair theories until you’ve actually experienced it. It would do ANet a world of good.

Edit: Oh, and Landmark is also a free to play game, and it doesn’t have an in-game shop (or it didn’t at the time), so the “they can’t without a subscription” excuse won’t fly either.

As one of the people in alpha of EQL, you have to remember that was during the alpha and beta of the game. In the official launch, we don’t know if they will be as communative as they are now.

Vayne.8563:

Lheimroo.2947:

Vayne.8563:

Actually I disagree completely because it was a question asked in an interview without preparation. There’s a difference between couching stuff in dipolmatic terms and saying screw you we changed it. No company would do that. What they did say was likely true.

I don’t know how many cons you’ve been to, but they’re very busy and you don’t get a lot of sleep. I’ve been on panels as guests at cons and you just perform. Sometimes well, sometimes not as well. This wasn’t some prepared statement. It was someone put on the spot and spouting off an answer, without too much forethought.

I’m not drawing any evidence from the statements at this point.

I’m drawing my conclusions from what was put into the game. At launch – simple systems for attaining max stat gear. After launch – complex, clumsy systems for attaining grind-based gear that took a year to be implemented in their entirety.

The statements made before launch could be erased from history and I would still be asking what is UP with that change in direction. I would still be calling it a bait and switch. And the clumsiness of the post-FOTM communication on the subject would remain.

For me the actions speak far louder. For you, you’re willing to write excuses into interviews regardless of the fact that what was said in the interview turned out precisely accurate on launch day.

No, you miss my point. No one has said they haven’t changed direction. People came into this thread and said Anet lied and did something bad. You’re saying they’ve been disingenuous. Based on a single interview for which they likely how no preparation.

If people wouldn’t say they lied and talked about how bad Anet’s behavior was on this point, there wouldn’t even be a conversation.

Vayne.. you are in every single Forum Sub section.

do you just search through forums everyday?

i have a feelign you are some undercover ANET staff member trying to make this game sound amazing.. when we are all trying to discuss its faults.

Zardul.3952:

Vayne.. you are in every single Forum Sub section.

do you just search through forums everyday?

i have a feelign you are some undercover ANET staff member trying to make this game sound amazing.. when we are all trying to discuss its faults.

So.many.people. have said this to him. I actually believe it more after reading through this thread and how he is jumping through hoops to try and disprove what others are saying. I’d say half this thread is of him finding 2 words in someone paragraph and saying “This isn’t true, so nothing in the rest of what you said is true”, or “They didn’t mean this, so you can’t take it as a fact”.

I’ll tell something to y’all about myself, though.

I am the worst godkitten customer anybody has ever had. Not because I kitten or complain.. but because I quit. I walk out on stupid presentations in the middle. I walked off a cruise ship two hours before it left because they had changed my room to a windowless third class piece of tripe one without notice and refused me any recompense.

I am the canary in the coalmine. I am proud of that.

sirflamesword.3896:

So.many.people. have said this to him. I actually believe it more after reading through this thread and how he is jumping through hoops to try and disprove what others are saying. I’d say half this thread is of him finding 2 words in someone paragraph and saying “This isn’t true, so nothing in the rest of what you said is true”, or “They didn’t mean this, so you can’t take it as a fact”.

And yet, he created this thread asking a red tag to comment “I’m listening” on suggestions, complaints, etc.

Either he has a double personality problem, or like a lot of people around here, he’s “addicted” to the forums.

Zardul.3952:

Vayne.8563:

Lheimroo.2947:

Vayne.8563:

Actually I disagree completely because it was a question asked in an interview without preparation. There’s a difference between couching stuff in dipolmatic terms and saying screw you we changed it. No company would do that. What they did say was likely true.

I don’t know how many cons you’ve been to, but they’re very busy and you don’t get a lot of sleep. I’ve been on panels as guests at cons and you just perform. Sometimes well, sometimes not as well. This wasn’t some prepared statement. It was someone put on the spot and spouting off an answer, without too much forethought.

I’m not drawing any evidence from the statements at this point.

I’m drawing my conclusions from what was put into the game. At launch – simple systems for attaining max stat gear. After launch – complex, clumsy systems for attaining grind-based gear that took a year to be implemented in their entirety.

The statements made before launch could be erased from history and I would still be asking what is UP with that change in direction. I would still be calling it a bait and switch. And the clumsiness of the post-FOTM communication on the subject would remain.

For me the actions speak far louder. For you, you’re willing to write excuses into interviews regardless of the fact that what was said in the interview turned out precisely accurate on launch day.

No, you miss my point. No one has said they haven’t changed direction. People came into this thread and said Anet lied and did something bad. You’re saying they’ve been disingenuous. Based on a single interview for which they likely how no preparation.

If people wouldn’t say they lied and talked about how bad Anet’s behavior was on this point, there wouldn’t even be a conversation.

Vayne.. you are in every single Forum Sub section.

do you just search through forums everyday?

i have a feelign you are some undercover ANET staff member trying to make this game sound amazing.. when we are all trying to discuss its faults.

I’m in what, four threads, maybe five? How silly.

sirflamesword.3896:

Zardul.3952:

Vayne.. you are in every single Forum Sub section.

do you just search through forums everyday?

i have a feelign you are some undercover ANET staff member trying to make this game sound amazing.. when we are all trying to discuss its faults.

So.many.people. have said this to him. I actually believe it more after reading through this thread and how he is jumping through hoops to try and disprove what others are saying. I’d say half this thread is of him finding 2 words in someone paragraph and saying “This isn’t true, so nothing in the rest of what you said is true”, or “They didn’t mean this, so you can’t take it as a fact”.

Or it could be that I’ve seen in my life too many people judging other people on completely insufficient evidence who are completely 100% totally wrong. Or hadn’t you considered that possibility.

I know this is the internet generation and everyone has an opinion on anything. However, saying anything you want about anybody publicly was considered…I don’t know…rude. Calling someone a liar meant something in my day. Calling them a liar because they made a change to a game you didn’t like wouldn’t have flown.

People, anonymously, sit in their chairs and sling mud. You don’t have to be a Anet employee to find it distasteful, or even more, find it simply wrong.

If I were an Anet employee why would I be trashing the new trait system, or even saying Anet needs to talk more here? Maybe you’re doing here what others in this thread are doing to Anet employees.

Jumping to completely unwarranted conclusions without a shred of evidence.

Vayne.8563:

If I were an Anet employee why would I be trashing the new trait system, or even saying Anet needs to talk more here? Maybe you’re doing here what others in this thread are doing to Anet employees.

I don’t’ know why you think you said any “harsh criticism” about Anet. What you said about the new trait system or this post is no where even close to criticism. Some of them more inline called suggestion.

It’s almost like you make GW2 sounds so amazing, any remote suggestion from you is called criticism.

You know when you trash other games? That’s harsh criticism.

You know when poster like me or many others says negative things about GW2? Those are harsh criticism. And you are very eager to defend.

Have I ever suspect you are affiliated with NCsoft, sure i have. That’s understandable because your behavior does make you look like it. There are thousands of people throwing out misleading market information on the stock market. That’st what people do. But obviously that’s just suspecting. You could very well be just a guy who is very passionate about GW2. There is no way of telling. If I would to spend 24/7 talking trash about GW2 on the forum, people would suspect me to be ghost writer for other game company too. Obviously that could be false too, I could just be a hater who like to complain. But you shouldn’t be surprise people suspect you.

Wait, so posting a lot on an internet forum for a game and arguing in favor of that game makes you a suspect for being an undercover employee? What exactly are “fans” then?

Not that Vayne even sounds like some kind of “fanboy” to me. I see what he’s doing and I understand it because I’ve done it before; he’s fighting for an ideal (in this case, treating people like people and being realistic). He probably doesn’t have any investment beyond that. One doesn’t need any investment beyond that.

What you guys are doing by saying that he is an undercover Anet employee is called “Circumstantial Ad Hominem.” Rather than addressing his arguments independent of his motivations, you’re trying to destroy his credibility, so that his arguments will be destroyed in the process. It is asinine and childish.

If his arguments are incorrect, you need only demonstrate how.

#BringbackGaile

Labjax.2465:

Wait, so posting a lot on an internet forum for a game and arguing in favor of that game makes you a suspect for being an undercover employee? What exactly are “fans” then?

Not that Vayne even sounds like some kind of “fanboy” to me. I see what he’s doing and I understand it because I’ve done it before; he’s fighting for an ideal (in this case, treating people like people and being realistic). He probably doesn’t have any investment beyond that. One doesn’t need any investment beyond that.

What you guys are doing by saying that he is an undercover Anet employee is called “Circumstantial Ad Hominem.” Rather than addressing his arguments independent of his motivations, you’re trying to destroy his credibility, so that his arguments will be destroyed in the process. It is asinine and childish.

If his arguments are incorrect, you need only demonstrate how.

I’m in no position say he is. I’m saying it’s possible. The possibility maybe really “really” low. I’m not targeting anyone. I’m saying it is very possible for game studio to do that right?

Take the fan voting on mmorpg to score games. Do you really believe those number aren’t tempered at all?

Or take for example there is a guy who do 50 negative post on GW2 everyday on mmorpg.com. Obviously that guy could be a hater, but quite honestly, I always suspect that guy have wow stock or something.

The truth is I have suspect people before. That’s that. And quite honestly, to defend Vayne a bit, I dont’ really think he is hired by Anet. Just because I don’t think Anet would hire someone who would cause a disturb on the forum. Did I suspect him before, yes, but I don’t think he is very professional if he is really hired by Anet. So I think he’s just a passionate player.

Hey look, it’s the anti-Vayne crowd in again to push a derailment. And then further to push the agenda of witch-hunting on people who actually like the game and are willing to admit it.

This, this here? This is why I really think ArenaNet will never find someone willing to do the job Vayne asked for, for the amount of money they’d be paid to do so. I know even if they tripled my current wages, I’d still not touch it with a standard ten foot pole.

No, I really just don’t like bullying or anything that looks like it. I don’t like personal attacks on people trying to do a job. I don’t like people being accused of stuff with little or no evidence.

I’ve had too much of it in my own life. Seeing people accused who won’t even really be able to defend themselves is just wrong. I wish more people saw it.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Hey look, it’s the anti-Vayne crowd in again to push a derailment. And then further to push the agenda of witch-hunting on people who actually like the game and are willing to admit it.

This, this here? This is why I really think ArenaNet will never find someone willing to do the job Vayne asked for, for the amount of money they’d be paid to do so. I know even if they tripled my current wages, I’d still not touch it with a standard ten foot pole.

No different from you being part of the Anti- ANYTHING RESEMBLING CRITICISM towards GW2, you, Vayne and a half dozen other individuals destroy threads left and right by picking a single piece of information out of someones post and derailing a thread by bringing it up OVER AND OVER.

I know Vayne isn’t an Anet employee, and the ones who actually believe he is are way to cynical, but to not be able to see how insane some of you defend everything Anet does is sad.

sirflamesword.3896:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Hey look, it’s the anti-Vayne crowd in again to push a derailment. And then further to push the agenda of witch-hunting on people who actually like the game and are willing to admit it.

This, this here? This is why I really think ArenaNet will never find someone willing to do the job Vayne asked for, for the amount of money they’d be paid to do so. I know even if they tripled my current wages, I’d still not touch it with a standard ten foot pole.

No different from you being part of the Anti- ANYTHING RESEMBLING CRITICISM towards GW2, you, Vayne and a half dozen other individuals destroy threads left and right by picking a single piece of information out of someones post and derailing a thread by bringing it up OVER AND OVER.

I know Vayne isn’t an Anet employee, and the ones who actually believe he is are way to cynical, but to not be able to see how insane some of you defend everything Anet does is sad.

Except I’m not defending everything Anet does. In this thread, I’m actually saying Anet is doing the wrong thing by not communicating. In the thread on the trait system revamp, I said Anet got it wrong. They made the game less enjoyable. The idea is okay but the implementation is poor. I’ve always hated the RNG boxes in the cash shop.

But you know, I don’t hate a lot of things that other people hate and I may enjoy a lot of things others don’t enjoy.

What I don’t like is people using hyperbole to make things seem worse than they are (this game is dying), or people accusing people of lying with relatively little evidence, or personal attacks like many of the posts that respond to me. This forum can’t bully me, because I don’t care enough about the opinions of my detractors to take it personally. But you have to admit, attacking someone for liking stuff you don’t like doesn’t make you reasonable. If your arguments were stronger, maybe you wouldn’t have to get personal.

Vayne.8563:

Except I’m not defending everything Anet does. In this thread, I’m actually saying Anet is doing the wrong thing by not communicating. In the thread on the trait system revamp, I said Anet got it wrong. They made the game less enjoyable. The idea is okay but the implementation is poor. I’ve always hated the RNG boxes in the cash shop.

But you know, I don’t hate a lot of things that other people hate and I may enjoy a lot of things others don’t enjoy.

What I don’t like is people using hyperbole to make things seem worse than they are (this game is dying), or people accusing people of lying with relatively little evidence, or personal attacks like many of the posts that respond to me. This forum can’t bully me, because I don’t care enough about the opinions of my detractors to take it personally. But you have to admit, attacking someone for liking stuff you don’t like doesn’t make you reasonable. If your arguments were stronger, maybe you wouldn’t have to get personal.

I understand, and you know what, a couple weeks ago I saw for the first time(there may have been a couple before who knows) that you were actually giving criticism of GW2 and I actually said to my guildies: “Holy crap Vayne is actually saying something negative about GW2 the world is going to end”, that’s how bad it has become. For the first time in months I actually started to read your posts on these forums, but most of it was much the same as before. TBH most of my rant wasn’t towards you Vayne and I should have taken some time to show that. Most of your posts are well thought out and make me think, “Well ya, I understand that”.

I may seem negative of GW2, but it is by far my favorite game(even more so than GW1), but I can’t stand the lengths people go to to defend many of the things that Anet does. Blind defense does a good game make.

sirflamesword.3896:

Vayne.8563:

Except I’m not defending everything Anet does. In this thread, I’m actually saying Anet is doing the wrong thing by not communicating. In the thread on the trait system revamp, I said Anet got it wrong. They made the game less enjoyable. The idea is okay but the implementation is poor. I’ve always hated the RNG boxes in the cash shop.

But you know, I don’t hate a lot of things that other people hate and I may enjoy a lot of things others don’t enjoy.

What I don’t like is people using hyperbole to make things seem worse than they are (this game is dying), or people accusing people of lying with relatively little evidence, or personal attacks like many of the posts that respond to me. This forum can’t bully me, because I don’t care enough about the opinions of my detractors to take it personally. But you have to admit, attacking someone for liking stuff you don’t like doesn’t make you reasonable. If your arguments were stronger, maybe you wouldn’t have to get personal.

I understand, and you know what, a couple weeks ago I saw for the first time(there may have been a couple before who knows) that you were actually giving criticism of GW2 and I actually said to my guildies: “Holy crap Vayne is actually saying something negative about GW2 the world is going to end”, that’s how bad it has become. For the first time in months I actually started to read your posts on these forums, but most of it was much the same as before. TBH most of my rant wasn’t towards you Vayne and I should have taken some time to show that. Most of your posts are well thought out and make me think, “Well ya, I understand that”.

I may seem negative of GW2, but it is by far my favorite game(even more so than GW1), but I can’t stand the lengths people go to to defend many of the things that Anet does. Blind defense does a good game make.

But it’s not blind defense. If you think my defense is blind you have no clue about me at all. I’ll comment on what I think is unfair. Some people think not liking a game entitles them to say whatever they want. I don’t think that’s true.

Do you realize there are 25 threads on the front page and I’m posting in 5 of them. That’s 20 threads I’m not posting in some of which are negative. I’m posting when I see personal attacks, name calling, accusations of lying. They don’t belong on the forums. They should never be acceptable.

Vayne.8563:

But it’s not blind defense. If you think my defense is blind you have no clue about me at all. I’ll comment on what I think is unfair. Some people think not liking a game entitles them to say whatever they want. I don’t think that’s true.

Do you realize there are 25 threads on the front page and I’m posting in 5 of them. That’s 20 threads I’m not posting in some of which are negative. I’m posting when I see personal attacks, name calling, accusations of lying. They don’t belong on the forums. They should never be acceptable.

Sorry I should have been more specific again since most of the first paragraph was about you. My 2nd paragraph is more in general and how I feel, even though I don’t like most of your opinions I know it’s not blind defense. You are one of the few that doesn’t just defend Anet no matter what it is, even if sometimes I feel that way because I don’t like your opinion lol.

You have to understand, that after years of seeing the potential of the MMO genre for someone of my playstyle, and never having seen a game cater to it, this game feels like a good fit for me. It still has some glaring flaws, but for my play style those flaws don’t particularly affect me personally.

The game needs more viable builds. The professions need to be brought more into line with each other as far as capability, and we need more skills, or at least more attributes to shake things up. Or more weapons. And I wouldn’t say no to an expansion or even mounts. Actually I quite like mounts.

But the actual game itself, not focused on raids or end game is what I’ve been waiting years to find in an MMO space. So naturally I"m happier with the game than other people.

There are things I’m unhappy with too, and I do talk about them or offer my support when others do.

But I’m convinced that if Anet communicated more, that we wouldn’t see quite the amount of negativity we do on the forums.

sirflamesword.3896:

No different from you being part of the Anti- ANYTHING RESEMBLING CRITICISM towards GW2, you, Vayne and a half dozen other individuals destroy threads left and right by picking a single piece of information out of someones post and derailing a thread by bringing it up OVER AND OVER.

Oh, please. Go on. I criticize this game a lot, mostly about how they handle their story. I don’t criticize what I don’t have enough experience in (PvP, or class balancing) because I have a tendency to not like going out on a limb for things I don’t really care about or know enough about.

But then, that sort of just vanishes when people need to bring up how I’m a “white knight”. No. I enjoy the game, and I have fun playing it. It could be much better, but I don’t necessarily agree with many of the suggestions.

I know Vayne isn’t an Anet employee, and the ones who actually believe he is are way to cynical, but to not be able to see how insane some of you defend everything Anet does is sad.

Everything?

Heh. No, please, continue.

Vayne.8563:

You have to understand, that after years of seeing the potential of the MMO genre for someone of my playstyle, and never having seen a game cater to it, this game feels like a good fit for me. It still has some glaring flaws, but for my play style those flaws don’t particularly affect me personally.

That’s about where I am, personally. It’s exactly the kind of game I can enjoy, rather than feel pressured about whether or not I’m doing X or Y. I departed a lot of games because I just couldn’t spend the time.

The game needs more viable builds. The professions need to be brought more into line with each other as far as capability, and we need more skills, or at least more attributes to shake things up. Or more weapons. And I wouldn’t say no to an expansion or even mounts. Actually I quite like mounts.

I don’t know about “viable builds” since that’s really an issue I can’t attack so well – anything is viable currently except for “naked” when it comes to PvE so long as you have the damage output to get credit or the skill to solo things.

I don’t really agree with “new skills/weapons/attributes” because I don’t think they would be as useful. All those skills of GW1 and most people maybe used only 25% of them at all during their play. I am not sure if reaching that level of skill diversity is worth the energy.

I heartily agree on class balancing. I don’t know how it can be achieved, but I think some nice ideas got thrown around in the CDIs for them to look at working with.

I’m not sure if “expansion” is enough of a magic bullet to “fix” anything. I also have little faith in ArenaNet to put together an expansion which would make everyone asking for it sit down and applaud. On the contrary, I expect if they spent substantial energies on an expansion and it was hyped even a little bit, we’d see “six months for an expansion and all we got was this garbage?”.

I’m okay with mounts so long as they’re cosmetic only and we don’t have massive stat boosts associated with them.

These stances may or may not change without warning.

But I’m convinced that if Anet communicated more, that we wouldn’t see quite the amount of negativity we do on the forums.

I’m convinced if they did, we’d see Abashi and Absor all over again.

Hi everyone,

Since this thread couldn’t stay constructive and has turned into an inflammatory and off topic discussion, we’ll now close it.

Thank you for your understanding.