Guild Wars 2

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

killcannon.2576:

The Ghostcrawler quote was actually about Sunwell Plateau (one of the longest and hardest raids from BC era WoW) and has since been taken out of context more often than not to downplay the inclusion of difficult instanced content. Only 2 percent of the player base actually completed the raid (before the next expansion came out…and the expansion followed shortly on the heels of Sunwell Plateau), but he never gave stats on how many actually tried or attempted the content. It was one of the reasons given for the easier raiding content in WotLK.

Many people at the time were leery of starting up yet another raid when an expansion was releasing soon, which would institute yet another jump in power levels almost immediately just from completing 5 man instances and open world quest chains. It spoke more about timing of the release rather than the type of content itself. If 2 percent ever actually only played the content, they just wouldn’t include it.

Well Lotro stopped making raids altogether and they said 2% of the population raided, period end stop. This was very recent, within the last couple of months. But he said the forums didn’t reflect that at all.

They’ve been saying it since 2012. And guess what…they keep making raids.

Game developers, go figure. shrug.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1542434-LOTRO-Turbine-confirms-there-will-be-no-more-new-raids-or-instances-

@killcannon, read this link and tell me your impressions.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/07/03/turbine-raiders-make-up-the-smallest-player-group-in-lotro/

This isn’t the first time I’ve read or heard comments just like this.

Vayne.8563:

Sure it’s a possibility, but let’s look at it this way.

Almost all min-maxers are going to be on forums looking at that sort of thing. But almost all casual solo players aren’t going to be. We know a reasonably large percentage of people just solo through MMOs as if it’s a single player game. We know it from stuff said by other devs, and even Anet long before Guild Wars 2 launched, had information about soloing on the FAQ. If it wasn’t an anticipated question, I doubt it would have been there.

You don’t need to go on forums to play Guild Wars 2 like Skyrim and I strongly suspect most people don’t. Those people aren’t interested in dungeons and often aren’t interested in PvP, or even WvW. They just bang around the open world killing stuff. Some might find a champ train. They just hang out and have a good time and kill stuff.

It’s a pretty big segment of the population you’ll never really hear from on a forum.

So when people make statements like there’s nothing new in the game or there’s no content…I’ve heard complaints from people that there’s too much in the game and they keep feeling like they’re falling behind.

You don’t see that represented very often on the forums either.

There are definitely people, however, who asked for updates to be spaced further apart, to keep the pace more relaxed. But you don’t hear from those people all that often, even though I know they’re out there.

Noted, but try looking at it this way as well: The more casual someone is, the less important that person actually is to the longevity of the game. Think about it. Say you have a pool of 10,000 players and out of that 10k, only 100 are active on the forums.

Now imagine that 80 out of those 100 are people who play 6-7 days a week for hours at a time. And that the rest of the 10k goes on a sliding scale with a few hitting as much as 6-7 days, while moving quickly down to 3-4, or as little as 1 day a week for an hour or so.

The more casual it gets, the more we’re looking at a player who rarely contributes to making the game look active – who rarely buys anything from the store or has an impact on the game’s community in any way.

I know my numbers are rough as crap, but the point is: I think high forum activity is more likely to be an indicator of high play activity than it is an indicator of low/casual play. And the people who are playing the game all the time are the ones who are really the lifeblood of the community; they’re the ones who make it look active, even during slow times of the day, which makes the game more attractive to casual players (who want to find people to jump into stuff with at any old time).

Obviously there are people who are very active and don’t touch the forums as well, but the “casual majority” isn’t necessarily as important as it’s made out to be. They are more important in big chunks – not so much as individuals.

Anyway, I’m not trying to overblow the importance of listening to people who are, for some reason, obsessed with internet forums (such as myself). Just that I don’t think it’s something to dismiss based on conjecture.

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

Lord Kuru.3685:

Vayne.8563:

The 15% of the people who follow forums and reddit.

Source? Or did you make it up?

Anyone who isn’t trying to be completely disingenuous would know that I’m not talking about an exact number. We know from many many games over a very long time that somwhere between 10-20% of the player base ever visit the forums. The fact is so well known and been said so many times in so many places that I didn’t really think I needed to spell it out.

But I can if you haven’t heard it before. Most people who play games just play games. An overwhelming majority. They don’t visit forums. They don’t visit build sites. They don’t even visit Dulfy or the wiki.

We’re the small under 20%. You don’t have to believe it. But that’s what it is. Most people buy a game, play it and don’t think very deeply about the experience.

Ahum…starting to push the credulity barrier a bit there. If you got the stats to back up that claim would love to see em.

He basically said that he made it up.

Labjax.2465:

Noted, but try looking at it this way as well: The more casual someone is, the less important that person actually is to the longevity of the game.

I’ve seen the opposite position argued very effectively. A casual player might not play as much but might want all of the same goodies in game as the hardcore player with thousands of gold from dungeon speedruns, farming, etc…so how is he going to get that cool stuff?

…with his credit card of course. A hard core player doesn’t need to spend a dime because his play style, or volume rather, covers his needs.

See, Labjax, I’m not actually trying to dismiss anyone. I understand that people have problems with things. I’m not saying they shouldn’t. I am saying that believing you are a majority because of what you see on the forums can be a mistake.

Rift focused at first on raids and dungeons to the exclusion of the open world and people left in droves. I was one of those people. They apologized on their forums afterwards and tried to make some content for people who didn’t want to raid, but for many, including me, it was too little too late. They were in that position because they listened to the forums, which didn’t accurately represent a lot of the player base. Because a lot of people who play like me have no reason to post.

I’m saying that people are coming out and saying I have a clear majority the forum seems to say so. I’m saying that doesn’t necessarily mean anything. I could mean something but it also might not. It’s certainly not conclusive by any means.

Which gets back to the use of the word exciting. I don’t believe, and never have believed that most of those blog posts target us. I believe they target people who go to the website occasionally, as opposed to reddit or the forums. Certainly the lack of detail would back that idea up.

I never really felt the website was aimed at me. Most of it is pretty basic stuff.

Vayne.8563:

@killcannon, read this link and tell me your impressions.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/07/03/turbine-raiders-make-up-the-smallest-player-group-in-lotro/

This isn’t the first time I’ve read or heard comments just like this.

I think the guy is trying to defend the company’s move away from raids and towards that weird pseudo raid/ instance thing they got going on now is what I think. It’s nothing new certainly, they’ve been saying the same thing since 2012 (like the link you posted) but they continued to produce instanced content.

It’s hard to make that content, and I’m sure that they have scaled back quite a bit in their personnel department and have limited resources. It’s spin.

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

@killcannon, read this link and tell me your impressions.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/07/03/turbine-raiders-make-up-the-smallest-player-group-in-lotro/

This isn’t the first time I’ve read or heard comments just like this.

I think the guy is trying to defend the company’s move away from raids and towards that weird pseudo raid/ instance thing they got going on now is what I think. It’s nothing new certainly, they’ve been saying the same thing since 2012 (like the link you posted) but they continued to produce instanced content.

It’s hard to make that content, and I’m sure that they have scaled back quite a bit in their personnel department and have limited resources. It’s spin.

So he made up the numbers about both the forum and the playerbase? That’s your answer? Even though I’ve heard other devs say similar things in the past?

You asked for a quote. I gave you a quote. Now you’re saying the quote is spin. Gotcha.

Ashen.2907:

I’ve seen the opposite position argued very effectively. A casual player might not play as much but might want all of the same goodies in game as the hardcore player with thousands of gold from dungeon speedruns, farming, etc…so how is he going to get that cool stuff?

…with his credit card of course. A hard core player doesn’t need to spend a dime because his play style, or volume rather, covers his needs.

Maybe, maybe not. That’s assuming most casual players have money to throw around.

Vayne.8563:

See, Labjax, I’m not actually trying to dismiss anyone. I understand that people have problems with things. I’m not saying they shouldn’t. I am saying that believing you are a majority because of what you see on the forums can be a mistake.

Rift focused at first on raids and dungeons to the exclusion of the open world and people left in droves. I was one of those people. They apologized on their forums afterwards and tried to make some content for people who didn’t want to raid, but for many, including me, it was too little too late. They were in that position because they listened to the forums, which didn’t accurately represent a lot of the player base. Because a lot of people who play like me have no reason to post.

I’m saying that people are coming out and saying I have a clear majority the forum seems to say so. I’m saying that doesn’t necessarily mean anything. I could mean something but it also might not. It’s certainly not conclusive by any means.

Which gets back to the use of the word exciting. I don’t believe, and never have believed that most of those blog posts target us. I believe they target people who go to the website occasionally, as opposed to reddit or the forums. Certainly the lack of detail would back that idea up.

I never really felt the website was aimed at me. Most of it is pretty basic stuff.

No, I agree that we as players certainly shouldn’t think we speak for anyone other than ourselves, unless we’re directly speaking for other people (such as guildies). I wish that went without saying, but I don’t think it does.

Also, Rift is not a strong example. I feel that Rift was always trying to be a raiding game most of all; in fact, AFAIK, many of the devs were in high-end raiding guilds (they just kept quiet about what their in-games names were). So it made perfect sense that their main focus was raiding.

Heck, there were moments when I stepped back and felt like the majority of the game’s activity centered around the raiding community. It wasn’t like this game where events have a life of their own. It was like “events” were driven almost entirely by raiders who needed some kind of gear/token from them.

Side note: I thought (and still think) the basis of this thread is silly. If I spent months working on something while being told to keep my mouth shut about the majority of it, I would be very excited to reveal it when the time finally came. And I would be proud of what I produced. Doesn’t need any more explanation than that, IMO.

Well writers write for a specific audience. I’m assuming that lots of exclamation marks and excited would indicate I wasn’t that audience. However, since I don’t really know the target audience I really can’t make suggestions about how Anet should approach communicating with them.

But I suspect that they probably do word the releases right for the people they’re trying to reach.

Vayne.8563:

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

@killcannon, read this link and tell me your impressions.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/07/03/turbine-raiders-make-up-the-smallest-player-group-in-lotro/

This isn’t the first time I’ve read or heard comments just like this.

I think the guy is trying to defend the company’s move away from raids and towards that weird pseudo raid/ instance thing they got going on now is what I think. It’s nothing new certainly, they’ve been saying the same thing since 2012 (like the link you posted) but they continued to produce instanced content.

It’s hard to make that content, and I’m sure that they have scaled back quite a bit in their personnel department and have limited resources. It’s spin.

So he made up the numbers about both the forum and the playerbase? That’s your answer? Even though I’ve heard other devs say similar things in the past?

You asked for a quote. I gave you a quote. Now you’re saying the quote is spin. Gotcha.

Uh, you gave me a quote from one game, from a specific time frame, from one forum from that game, and again….he only mentioned posters…not actual users.

If we take the 1% rule into account, and we use his statement that there are only slightly more forum posters than raiders, then we get a very broad idea of how many people are using the forums. that would be more than 10% multiplied by 8 or 9 which gives you 80 or 90 percent of all players use the forums to some extent. So…I’m not sure what you’re trying to get me to accept here.

And yes, devs do indeed lie sometimes. No I don’t have a percentage, and yes we have discussed it before.

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

@killcannon, read this link and tell me your impressions.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/07/03/turbine-raiders-make-up-the-smallest-player-group-in-lotro/

This isn’t the first time I’ve read or heard comments just like this.

I think the guy is trying to defend the company’s move away from raids and towards that weird pseudo raid/ instance thing they got going on now is what I think. It’s nothing new certainly, they’ve been saying the same thing since 2012 (like the link you posted) but they continued to produce instanced content.

It’s hard to make that content, and I’m sure that they have scaled back quite a bit in their personnel department and have limited resources. It’s spin.

So he made up the numbers about both the forum and the playerbase? That’s your answer? Even though I’ve heard other devs say similar things in the past?

You asked for a quote. I gave you a quote. Now you’re saying the quote is spin. Gotcha.

Uh, you gave me a quote from one game, from a specific time frame, from one forum from that game, and again….he only mentioned posters…not actual users.

If we take the 1% rule into account, and we use his statement that there are only slightly more forum posters than raiders, then we get a very broad idea of how many people are using the forums. that would be more than 10% multiplied by 8 or 9 which gives you 80 or 90 percent of all players use the forums to some extent. So…I’m not sure what you’re trying to get me to accept here.

And yes, devs do indeed lie sometimes. No I don’t have a percentage, and yes we have discussed it before.

Right, I found the most recent quote by the most recent dev that I remember off the top of my head. By now we come to devs lie sometimes, so what’s the point of finding any other quote.

You choose to believe more people raid, I believe that’s not the case. I think tons and tons of people bang around in the open world, often solo, never join a guild, no idea of the meta game at all, or even the concept that there is a meta game. They kill stuff in the easiest content, and feel like they’re doing something. That’s enough for a whole lot of people.

Anet themselves have said in the past (and no I can’t find the quote) that by percentage, only a small percentage of players ever attempted the more difficult content in Guild Wars 1. Do you really think years later I can find the quote?

Even if I did, would it matter if you’re just going to say they’re lying anyway?

Vayne.8563:

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

@killcannon, read this link and tell me your impressions.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/07/03/turbine-raiders-make-up-the-smallest-player-group-in-lotro/

This isn’t the first time I’ve read or heard comments just like this.

I think the guy is trying to defend the company’s move away from raids and towards that weird pseudo raid/ instance thing they got going on now is what I think. It’s nothing new certainly, they’ve been saying the same thing since 2012 (like the link you posted) but they continued to produce instanced content.

It’s hard to make that content, and I’m sure that they have scaled back quite a bit in their personnel department and have limited resources. It’s spin.

So he made up the numbers about both the forum and the playerbase? That’s your answer? Even though I’ve heard other devs say similar things in the past?

You asked for a quote. I gave you a quote. Now you’re saying the quote is spin. Gotcha.

Uh, you gave me a quote from one game, from a specific time frame, from one forum from that game, and again….he only mentioned posters…not actual users.

If we take the 1% rule into account, and we use his statement that there are only slightly more forum posters than raiders, then we get a very broad idea of how many people are using the forums. that would be more than 10% multiplied by 8 or 9 which gives you 80 or 90 percent of all players use the forums to some extent. So…I’m not sure what you’re trying to get me to accept here.

And yes, devs do indeed lie sometimes. No I don’t have a percentage, and yes we have discussed it before.

Right, I found the most recent quote by the most recent dev that I remember off the top of my head. By now we come to devs lie sometimes, so what’s the point of finding any other quote.

You choose to believe more people raid, I believe that’s not the case. I think tons and tons of people bang around in the open world, often solo, never join a guild, no idea of the meta game at all, or even the concept that there is a meta game. They kill stuff in the easiest content, and feel like they’re doing something. That’s enough for a whole lot of people.

Anet themselves have said in the past (and no I can’t find the quote) that by percentage, only a small percentage of players ever attempted the more difficult content in Guild Wars 1. Do you really think years later I can find the quote?

Even if I did, would it matter if you’re just going to say they’re lying anyway?

Not sure why you are talking about raiding or why you segued over to it, but whatever.

We were speaking about people who use the forums and how posters =/= everyone who uses the forums.

Anyway, done for tonight, and way off topic.

OT: Anet, buy a thesaurus.

what’s next? don’t use english to communicate?

While zero sum table tennis is always fascinating the OP is kind of weird to suggest that a gaming company stop using upbeat terms. If it was a Marvin the android IP sure, otherwise no.

Here’s one from awhile back. I’m sure it has links or something to follow for more precise numbers: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?511077-The-number-of-players-playing-PvMP-in-LOTRO

LOL funny thread. I won’t mind if they do expand on their adjectives though. I’d like to see them use words such as groovy, melodramatic, intoxicating etc.. :/

http://thesaurus.com/browse/exciting

I demand they use the word “titillating” instead.

Lord Kuru.3685:

… in your announcements. You’re overusing it.

And it’s never really exciting…except SAB.

SAB is always exciting.

It is overuse of the word “awesome” that grates on me..

And people in EQ2 often said how bad SOE was in marketing .. i believe they would
have loved to see them use more often these words to make EQ2 a bigger success ^^

Vayne.8563:

Well someone I’m sure will find and post the Lotro dev interview about why they don’t do raids anymore. He was very clear about 2% of the gaming population raiding, compared to the number of people on the forums who talked about raiding. It’s the very thing we’re talking about here.

The forums don’t represent the majority of the playerbase at least at Lotro…which isn’t available on console. But it’s been like that in almost every game I’ve seen.

Ghostgrawler talked years about about how few people actually raided in WoW, but to read the forums you’d think everyone did.

Over the years many devs have made similar observations. Could I find any of those quotes now? No.

But yeah the 15% number was just a throwaway number. It wasn’t meant to be accurate. It was meant to say that gaming communities are seldom represented by forum posters in any way that is meaningful. This I truly believe and I truly believe most devs would probably agree.

Completely agree on all the things about the minority. I’ve been running/hosting and moderating game based forums for over 15 years. While the numbers may vary slightly and change with time or genre, it’s ALWAYS been the minority of players that actually use forums for any kind of communication or information. You really have to try hard to get the numbers higher than 10% in most cases. I’ve even run forums about forums and even then only 25% of the people that were invited to participate even bothered and these were all people moderating/administering forums!