Guild Wars 2

ascended gear and things that make you grind aka new items that cost 100 g are the burger and fries in your example

Reikou.7068:

I do think that with some of the newer PvE things, specifically Liadri, that Anet is finally getting the picture. IMO, all bosses in this game should be similar to Liadri in terms of “difficulty.” From the Shatterer, to the wurm in Twilight Arbor.

ilr.9675:

I go where the difficulty is. Lots of people in the dungeon forums went there too. And not long after release, no one but Hrouda was listening to them until he was moved out of that department as well. So this is really a chicken and the egg of “Who gave up on who”…

And now look what they’ve done… they’ve completely RUINED ORR. Seriously, go fight some of the more broken D.E.‘s in orr with a 12+ man group. Theres’ some Rehash Champion corruptor that’s like Kohler on 9000+ supersaiyancrack. He’ll AOE-pull everyone at BEYOND longbow range and then insta-kill them while they’re getting back up. And yes he spawns on an Escort where when the NPC’s die, it FAILS. It’s almost impossible to fight him much less beat him before all the NPC’s insta-die.

Then there’s a bunch of other ridiculous crap like Subjugators and PlagueBearers on the final Balthazaar push dropping massive AOE wells all over the place like they have no Cooldown on them and they last way longer than 10 seconds.

Oh and Jester Champions spawning on other Escorts too. It’s like these changes were made out of spite which makes even less sense since barely anyone was even doing the DE’s anymore in Orr. And now there’s even fewer people willing to put up with all that crap above. I still try, b/c that’s where the difficulty still is. But I’m sure everyone else who’s seen this stuff in action lately is scratching their heads wondering why Anet suddenly HATES them so much :p

I juxtaposed these two points for a reason.

I’ve been thinking that Liadri is a test, that ANet is seeing how many people will get the achievement for beating her. This might give them a picture of what percentage of the player-base wants, appreciates and can do this type of content.

However, then I look at the shape of things in Orr. Events seem to be anti-fun to the point that someone who claims to want difficult content thinks they are broken. It’s at that point I begin to wonder whether ANet knows what they’re doing.

^fair enough.

Though there’s only 1 person stating Reikou’s case (him) b/c the rest of us know that ratcheting up the difficulty through “Artificial Difficulty” just discriminates against several classes. We completed every piece of Orr we usually do and it only took 20 minutes longer than our fastest times while also getting the Pact to Balthazar with not less than 100% morale so I supposed there’s something to be said about adapting. But that’s only “interesting” to people like Reikou and Me (and the other 20 regs who pitch in on these hardest parts). I believe the word is “Cloistering”…

The same thing happened with Asc Catacombs when they “redid” that. It just created even more disparity between the players who already had experience, and the players who needed a chance to learn it first before some parts of it got turned into “Hard Mode” …never mind that it’s usually the first introduction they get to Explorables…

Does Anet know what they’re doing here? Obviously. They had incredibly gimmicky content in the first game too that they “UpTuned” when they noticed the Hardcores like Reikou and the masochists like me were rolling through it unscathed. U.W. being a prime example b/c they needed to tone down the Ecto farming there too. But the changes they made (which we adapted to by HAVING to recruit a “Shadowform Tank” every single time)… just destroyed the uniqueness and the “fun” of the area. It made bringing along even 1 new player in an 8 man party a huge Risk. …forget trying to bring 2 or 3.

.

….and that’s the direction I’m seeing these D.E.‘s now heading in too except we don’t have any power over who comes along anymore, who AFK’s in the town nearby and still causes the Event diff to Scale up, and least of all: any control whatsoever over the NPC’s we have to keep alive.

Challenge is good. Challenge is a situation where things are difficult but you can change their outcomes because you have some control over them. …what they’re doing now, is just Chaotic Gimmicks; until no one but the most adamant hardcores are left still attempting it—does it succeed. How does anyone else learn from that? Watch videos of it that just spawns a bunch of copy cats?…until those Builds get nerfed b/c there’s too many copy cats? This is the Pattern where yes Anet seems to know what they’re doing but at the same time it just creates even more work for Anet too and an endless cycle of nerfing that NO ONE likes.

ilr.9675:

(which we adapted to by HAVING to recruit a “Shadowform Tank” every single time)…

I don’t recall doing that when I did it, I just would pack blinding skills like “Throw Dirt” or such and others would do similar.

Unleashed.6195:

You can’t blame people playing the game for how they play. They will play the way you reward them to play. The reason they zerg instead of perform team tactics is because due to design, it is -more effective- to zerg than to perform team tactics. It is more effective because unlike real combat or high end structured PvP, you do not have perfect command line authority over your subordinates and it is impossible, even properly coordinated, for a 20 person group to overcome a 50 or 80 person group.

People were not as enthralled by the events because the events gave them nothing. Movies are an experience. The first time you complete an event it’s like a short story movie. Once you’ve done it once, twice, maybe three times, the excitement of the experience is gone and all that remains is the question of whether or not it is rewarding.

This is why you will never, never outpace the player with content. It can’t be done. People made fun of Guild Wars 1 (or just lovingly poked at it) calling it Build Wars. That’s kind of the point though, they hit on a solution to the content chase. You put it in the build. Like Magic the Gathering or other card games. Your content is the build variety you can introduce by bringing in new skills. All your content, far more expensive to build than new abilities, is then fresh again. You have a new way to conquer it.

Players are not to blame for what they do, what they do is something you can know very easily in advance. The design is to blame if its not reaching its goals. Events would be wildly popular if they added stacks of magic find stacks for their completion, no matter where they are, you would have a group chasing them down before doing their champ runs. WvW would be more tactical if there were friendly fire damage for players not inside a party together (increase party sizes in WvW to compensate). Design can solve these things, players will be who they are.

I agree that content is fresh again when you have another way to play it. That’s something that is great about the original Guild Wars, you could make up for a lack of skill with strategy. Not that you can’t in Guild Wars 2, but the variety in combat mechanics is drastically different between the two games, as is the life but that’s not much of an excuse since it’s ArenaNet that did both games.

I am excited about the potential of new skills being added to the game. However, the gates discouraging players from using different builds are a huge issue I have. Penalizing players for changing builds is rampant. Gear is expensive if you want rare, exotic, or, ascended. Gear is a primary driver as to whether you are a bunker, DoT damage, Spike damage or something in between. Gear mods are the worst, superior sigils and rune costs are way up there too. Then there’s the chipping away at player coin for modifying traits.

I prefer the Guild Wars take on build diversity over the take Guild Wars 2 has, but that won’t completely work as it did due to the differences between the games. That said I don’t see why players can’t have the flexibility to create whatever build they want for no cost like in Guild Wars. Players just got their max armor part way through the story picked up 3 extra headpieces, runes, then insignias and then could freely change builds forever after at no cost. And the initial investment for max gear was hardly noticeable, imagine paying like 10 gold to forever customize your build at no cost extra ever unless you want to customize your look.

Efficiency is the main goal of every player. All want the easiest way to obtain what they want: shinnies. Fun is an effect of what you do and not a goal in itself.
The world if too big to be everywhere plus the events not showing on the world map makes people see the world only as the zone they play in.
Showing 50 events on the map in the same time, I bet people will jump to do more because it is faster farming
Also a Server chat would improve the communication between zones for people who are not in a guild

Zelkovan.2630:

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I think you mis-interpreted my post and brought up the argument that most people use: If you’re not enjoying it then don’t play, otherwise you’re a grinder/farmer and ruining the game and/or making life hard for yourself.

To clarify, I still play the game and still enjoy it (alt-aholic here), but when people say “only play for fun” I kind of don’t agree. What I meant in my previous post and in this post, is that while playing for fun is indeed a merit of itself, you have to understand that MMO’s are repetitive by nature. They have to be. An MMO is different from a single player RPG, like Skyrim. MMO’s need playerbases to thrive and something to keep them playing. In GW1, it was all the vast amount of skills you had to unlock.

I mean, if the game is all about the fun and experience, why do we have armor types? Why do we have classes and leveling? To hell with it I say! We must explore the world and enjoy it in our underwear because it is enjoyable to stare at scenery and repeat events over and over! When people say “play for fun. Don’t grind/farm do whatever bro” (or something along those lines) you’re essentially saying: Play this way, because any other way shouldn’t be the way the game is played.

People enjoy working for a task, because it makes them feel like what they did was meaningful. That’s why very little people play sPvP, or why many complain WvW is lacking, because there is little rewards that actually make it feel meaningful, that make us say “Wow, I want to do that again because not only did I enjoy myself I got cool shinies too!”. Rather than, “Wow I enjoyed myself, but i didn’t get anything…I guess i’ll play this one or two more times for the fun of it and drop it when I get bored”.

It’s a little hard to explain my point without going into very big detail, unfortunately.

Ugh. I can’t think of anything good to say to this because you’re right but I absolutely abhor this mindset. Not that I dislike those with it, just the general mindset, since I don’t know you personally. I can’t stand repetition in games. I can’t stand grind. I can’t stand farming. I can’t stand deriving purpose or meaning from what is essentially expendable.

It’s utter insanity to me. Let me put it to you from my perspective, with a different game, but the same basic concepts are employed:

Player A spawns in a world in Minecraft. Player A explores, builds a shelter, survives, starts a mine and stockpiles materials, maybe starts some farms. Slowly but surely A begins to build up a nice place. With it as nice as A wants it, A decides to stop playing for awhile.

Player B does much the same, but the place is never nice enough. Simple farms must be automated. Cobblestone and obsidian must be constantly produced. Complex combination lock doors to absurdly large stockpiles must be built. But…Player B is all alone. There is no one the food, stone, or obsidian is being produced for. There is no one trying to steal B’s stockpiles.

It’s all nice and impressive…But there’s no point to it. It’s just going to sit there…For nothing. I’m sure B enjoyed making it all, and I might enjoy hearing about it or seeing it, but it’s entirely unnecessary.

Fortunately B doesn’t really affect anyone there.

In online games though, B really makes things awkward. B is the one keeping the world looking both dead and alive. B is the one that is always hovering around the most efficient gathering spots. B is also often the one encouraging efficiency over all else.

You might say, well, that’s mischaracterizing those sorts of players, but look around. The people you are sort of defending seem to mostly be that way. It’s not about the purpose or meaningfulness of the rewards. It’s about gritty, tedious efficiency. And for what? The sense of purpose? A piece of gear that by then they’ll have tired themselves of the game too much to go around with?

I just can’t begin to fathom it.

Ya just gotta ask why people play MMOs, specifically Guild Wars 2.
If the game—any MMO game—doesn’t provide essentially what people are looking for in real life, you’re going to see all the complaints people have raised in this and many other posts;

In a nutshell, the player wants some or all of these (Not in any particular order):

A) To experience, participate in, and affect the story, or a story relevant to all
B) To become rich and more powerful over time through effort and skill
C) To feel famously important, useful and needed
D) To portray themselves fully, the way they want, aesthetically
E) To conquer and rise above others either through direct combat or other means

Does Guild Wars 2 deliver?

A) Yes: Personal Story/Dynamic Events; but their meaning is significantly reduced due to the fact that no one else cares about anyone else’s Personal Story, and, Dynamic Events repeat too often, are too few, and have no real impact on the main story arc.

B) Yes: Level to 80 and get gear. but “every man and his dog” are at level 80, and once there, further vertical progression is miniscule to none. Legendary weapons are acquired almost purely through random means and provide no advantage over regular weapons.

C) No: Everyone is level 80 and everyone has the same ‘power’, therefore while Thieves and Mesmers are sometimes ‘useful’ or ‘needed’ in the general sense, they are so by reason of class ability, not for reason of the player’s personal skill and power.

D) Yes: Character customization is excellent, but there are serious issues with variety in armour, hair styles and emotes

E) Yes & No: Players can defeat others, in front of others, in a limited way (WvW and SPvP) but ultimately, theoretically (subconsciously) everyone has the same power. See ‘C’ above.

Final Answer
Guild Wars 2 delivers in part on most of the crucial points, however the “buts” are serious obstacles to true success that are bringing about a great deal of dis-satisfaction by players on the forums.

Finally, (and this is implied in the above already) rewards are disproportionate to effort and often ultimately irrelevant to each of the above points—i.e. that new weapon or armour makes no difference whatsoever to any sense of fame, fortune or vertical progression that anyone else needs to care about. Therefore, you see a large portion of people ignoring the greater breadth of the game to focus purely on grinding in a desperate attempt to satiate that desire for wealth, fame and power (gold, aesthetics, reputation). There is currently no other way to have these human needs met in this game.

It’s not surprising. We’re talking a company (ANet) which is comprised of a bunch of people who only know content that is all about grind and farming for shinies. But it is what many MMO players are conditioned to want. Which is just sad.

To have a “living world” it needs to be populated by “living characters”. Modern AI is pretty much stagnant and hasn’t changed much at all in the past decade. Especially in MMO’s.

Want to create a game world where a player can make a meaningful and lasting change? You won’t find it in a game like WoW or GW. I don’t expect to really find it in the upcoming TES. It can only be found in the ideal sand box. A game that is specifically designed to depend on it’s player base to make up it’s population.

I’ve said it before that there is much they can do. The game has a day/night cycle but the npc’s don’t have a daily routine that would be expected of an actual person. Their dialog doesn’t change at all. Not after something a player or group of players has done. Not even after something ‘big’ happening in the Living Story will you hear your typical, out in some village, npc say anything about it. Still saying their one or two lines since release.

The world is only as alive as the population it’s made up of. Focusing on making the npc’s that comprise the world feel as alive as possible should be a must for wanting a “living world”.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

ilr.9675:

(which we adapted to by HAVING to recruit a “Shadowform Tank” every single time)…

I don’t recall doing that when I did it, I just would pack blinding skills like “Throw Dirt” or such and others would do similar.

You’re serious? … the 4 Horsemen, AND their pack of 20 Dryders on both sides, and the 6-8 Dhuum Skellies that also piled in with them?… blinding spellcasters? what is this I don’t even… You must have done it way before they changed everything by adding Dhuum and the Extra Dryders (also this …which was just as bad usually)

ilr.9675:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

ilr.9675:

(which we adapted to by HAVING to recruit a “Shadowform Tank” every single time)…

I don’t recall doing that when I did it, I just would pack blinding skills like “Throw Dirt” or such and others would do similar.

You couldn’t blind the 4 Horsemen, AND their pack of 20 Dryders on both sides, and the 6-8 Dhuum Skellies that also piled in with them… what is this I don’t even… You must have done it way before they changed everything by adding Dhuum and the Extra Dryders (also this …which was just as bad usually)

I wonder how much of the Guild Wars 2 community has any idea of what this means, lol. This conversation is nostalgic.

GW2 just needs a full expansion with a new take on everything talked about in this post.,

Shockwave.1230:

ilr.9675:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

ilr.9675:

(which we adapted to by HAVING to recruit a “Shadowform Tank” every single time)…

I don’t recall doing that when I did it, I just would pack blinding skills like “Throw Dirt” or such and others would do similar.

You couldn’t blind the 4 Horsemen, AND their pack of 20 Dryders on both sides, and the 6-8 Dhuum Skellies that also piled in with them… what is this I don’t even… You must have done it way before they changed everything by adding Dhuum and the Extra Dryders (also this …which was just as bad usually)

I wonder how much of the Guild Wars 2 community has any idea of what this means, lol. This conversation is nostalgic.

…That was awful with only one other person and our heroes. We never got past it, but also never tried the “cheap” build.

Yeah sorry for getting off track…

Look some people find purpose in being compulsive in general.
When real life doesn’t reward them for it, MMO’s usualy DO.

And this one is no exception. The first one wasn’t exactly pure skill based EITHER when it came to actually showing off Weapon skins (frog scepter, BDS, IDS, etc…). They were all RNG too just like Precursors. Some people would run the same dungeon for months before just giving up and buying it from some lucky SOB who got theirs after less than 10…

But yeah, there was also some really good points in here and elsewhere about why D.E.’s by themselves let the Players down first, way before the players let Anet down.

Pure Heart.1456:

In a nutshell, the player wants some or all of these (Not in any particular order):

A) To experience, participate in, and affect the story, or a story relevant to all
B) To become rich and more powerful over time through effort and skill
C) To feel famously important, useful and needed
D) To portray themselves fully, the way they want, aesthetically
E) To conquer and rise above others either through direct combat or other means

My take on these:

A) While GW2 personal story has its moments, it was not as engaging as GW story, which was on a par with cheap fantasy novels. I’m not sure a lot of MMO players care about story; 11M plus played WoW, which has good lore but is very bad about generating any sense that the player is involved in a story that progresses through plot points.
B) My experience in GW2 has been that the ceiling on skill is quite high, at least for players without fantastic twitch reflexes and/or great systems/connections. These players find ample opportunity to get more powerful by becoming more effective through the development of skill. Power through gear? Number inflation only leads to number inflation in the content, so that feeling of power is artificial. Unfortunately, GW2 has decided to cater to that want, which diminishes the game.
D) GW2 offers a lot of skins and customization, but there are issues with some of the options, maybe many of the options depending on race/profession choice.

Your C and E both relate to ego stroking. I wonder how many players feel that way. I don’t. And you left out:

Is the game fun to play?

ilr.9675:

You’re serious? … the 4 Horsemen, AND their pack of 20 Dryders on both sides, and the 6-8 Dhuum Skellies that also piled in with them?… blinding spellcasters? what is this I don’t even… You must have done it way before they changed everything by adding Dhuum and the Extra Dryders (also this …which was just as bad usually)

A spirit spammer also worked. Which we used. I thought you were with us back then. Don’t you remember ilr?

ilr.9675:

But yeah, there was also some really good points in here and elsewhere about why D.E.’s by themselves let the Players down first, way before the players let Anet down.

This might sound somewhat accusing but, Anet has been making changes to GW2 the game in a way that seems suspecting according to the feedbacks on this forum (from personally what I saw for nearly a year now).

Even though I can’t be sure of this; but from the outside looking in, it seems Anet only responds to feedbacks that fits their pre-constructed personal and cultural idea for the game even if some aspects of the game play designs would be better off going in another direction than where it currently is headed. [of course, these are just my personal view of the game’s progression since GW2 launched several months ago]

FluffyDoe.7539:

ilr.9675:

But yeah, there was also some really good points in here and elsewhere about why D.E.’s by themselves let the Players down first, way before the players let Anet down.

This might sound somewhat accusing but, Anet has been making changes to GW2 the game in a way that seems suspecting according to the feedbacks on this forum (from personally what I saw for nearly a year now).

Even though I can’t be sure of this; but from the outside looking in, it seems Anet only responds to feedbacks that fits their pre-constructed personal and cultural idea for the game even if some aspects of the game play designs would be better off going in another direction than where it currently is headed. [of course, these are just my personal view of the game’s progression since GW2 launched several months ago]

Logically speaking, a company can do nothing else. Because feed back on forums is very seldomly one sided.

Even when they’ve increased rewards (which was based on feedback) there were people posting here saying rewards should be nerfed.

It’s very easy to get the idea that the feedback you see is what most players want…the problem is most players don’t give feedback and the most vocal players also tend to be the hardest core, or at least those with the most stake.

Take the dragon events. They were sort of fun before Anet increased the rewards. They went from relatively fun events to horrible zerg events. The loot effectively destroyed the events, but they were more popular than ever. I don’t think Anet ever saw their game as a loot train…but they still made the change.

So no, I don’t think this analysis is necessarily accurate. By the same token, they won’t make a change that derails what they want to do with the game, because there are people who like that stuff too.

I mean every time a new patch comes out, the place gets mad crowded. Someone must be playing it and liking it.

Lucky.9421:

ilr.9675:

You’re serious? … the 4 Horsemen, AND their pack of 20 Dryders on both sides, and the 6-8 Dhuum Skellies that also piled in with them?… blinding spellcasters? what is this I don’t even… You must have done it way before they changed everything by adding Dhuum and the Extra Dryders (also this …which was just as bad usually)

A spirit spammer also worked. Which we used. I thought you were with us back then. Don’t you remember ilr?

yeeeeaah…. I do … i think toad says hi btw
(haven’t seen steph tho who was usually the SS)

I feel like the DE system would be a bit more engaging ArenaNet implemented a sort of instanced mode for the explorable areas where you have to vanquish/complete all of the events on the map (so it’d hearken back to GW1’s vanquish mode or even some dungeons) with a party or a small group, though that might cause some trouble with group events or world boss encounters that generally involve far more than a small party.

I would certainly love to get a small group together to do events all across the map without it becoming a tiresome zergfest, and they could pepper in weapon/armor skin rewards or perhaps even new skills when they’re implemented — although something akin to the whole Signet of Capture deal from GW1 would also be nice, be it from world bosses or events.

Add in a hard mode and I’d be even happier. Maybe an event vanquish mode would help people notice DEs more and give the feedback that the system deserves. Some of these are wonderfully well written at the very least, and deserve some amount of attention (the Enhanced Ettin event in Timberline Falls was actually something that I found really humorous, and I enjoyed completing it).

Vayne.8563:

FluffyDoe.7539:

ilr.9675:

But yeah, there was also some really good points in here and elsewhere about why D.E.’s by themselves let the Players down first, way before the players let Anet down.

This might sound somewhat accusing but, Anet has been making changes to GW2 the game in a way that seems suspecting according to the feedbacks on this forum (from personally what I saw for nearly a year now).

Even though I can’t be sure of this; but from the outside looking in, it seems Anet only responds to feedbacks that fits their pre-constructed personal and cultural idea for the game even if some aspects of the game play designs would be better off going in another direction than where it currently is headed. [of course, these are just my personal view of the game’s progression since GW2 launched several months ago]

Logically speaking, a company can do nothing else. Because feed back on forums is very seldomly one sided.

Even when they’ve increased rewards (which was based on feedback) there were people posting here saying rewards should be nerfed.

It’s very easy to get the idea that the feedback you see is what most players want…the problem is most players don’t give feedback and the most vocal players also tend to be the hardest core, or at least those with the most stake.

Take the dragon events. They were sort of fun before Anet increased the rewards. They went from relatively fun events to horrible zerg events. The loot effectively destroyed the events, but they were more popular than ever. I don’t think Anet ever saw their game as a loot train…but they still made the change.

So no, I don’t think this analysis is necessarily accurate. By the same token, they won’t make a change that derails what they want to do with the game, because there are people who like that stuff too.

I mean every time a new patch comes out, the place gets mad crowded. Someone must be playing it and liking it.

To me it sounds like you are on the side that supports Anet, and also on the side that doesn’t actually believe there is a solution. aka. the side that’s objectively doing nothing because they’re afraid to screw up a mediocre game (sorry if that sounded harsh although – that’s imo the solid truth).

digiowl.9620:

i suspect ANet honestly thought a larger portion of the player base were explorers.

Oddly enough I am an explorer and feel that exploration is an area in which GW2 struggles the most. Its not really exploration if your map has icons telling you where everything is.

FluffyDoe.7539:

Vayne.8563:

FluffyDoe.7539:

ilr.9675:

But yeah, there was also some really good points in here and elsewhere about why D.E.’s by themselves let the Players down first, way before the players let Anet down.

This might sound somewhat accusing but, Anet has been making changes to GW2 the game in a way that seems suspecting according to the feedbacks on this forum (from personally what I saw for nearly a year now).

Even though I can’t be sure of this; but from the outside looking in, it seems Anet only responds to feedbacks that fits their pre-constructed personal and cultural idea for the game even if some aspects of the game play designs would be better off going in another direction than where it currently is headed. [of course, these are just my personal view of the game’s progression since GW2 launched several months ago]

Logically speaking, a company can do nothing else. Because feed back on forums is very seldomly one sided.

Even when they’ve increased rewards (which was based on feedback) there were people posting here saying rewards should be nerfed.

It’s very easy to get the idea that the feedback you see is what most players want…the problem is most players don’t give feedback and the most vocal players also tend to be the hardest core, or at least those with the most stake.

Take the dragon events. They were sort of fun before Anet increased the rewards. They went from relatively fun events to horrible zerg events. The loot effectively destroyed the events, but they were more popular than ever. I don’t think Anet ever saw their game as a loot train…but they still made the change.

So no, I don’t think this analysis is necessarily accurate. By the same token, they won’t make a change that derails what they want to do with the game, because there are people who like that stuff too.

I mean every time a new patch comes out, the place gets mad crowded. Someone must be playing it and liking it.

To me it sounds like you are on the side that supports Anet, and also on the side that doesn’t actually believe there is a solution. aka. the side that’s objectively doing nothing because they’re afraid to screw up a mediocre game (sorry if that sounded harsh although that’s imo the truth).

You’re wrong. What I think we have is different things work for different people period. The farmers are happy that they can farm, but those who don’t want to farm and don’t enjoy finding end up far behind if they don’t farm. Inflation, because a portion of the population does have money, puts many things out of reach of those who don’t want to farm. Both sides can’t be pleased, because both sides what different things.

Anet’s job is to find a compromise that works for both sides, and that’s not going to happen for everyone. So the problem persists.

But that doesn’t mean I do nothing. I fight for the stuff important to my side.

Rexurus.3526:

Very well said.

To be honest the whole concept for this game is getting narrowed by the players most of all. It’s all about farming, looting, chests and farming… it’s not about venturing and traveling where you enjoy the atmosphere and events along the way anymore.

You can compare it to the way Diablo 2 was. "Run through tristram in a big group. Run through Cows, do baalruns etc. It’s all about having a big group rushing and smashing things while getting a reward for it. I don’t know why it’s fun but it is. It beats having to run alone for hours without anything happening. That way the game will die pretty kitten fast.

The world is only that big and the impressions of discovering it and seeing the dragons for the first time won’t last forever. You will get to a point where you need efficiency. On that note, I think it’s lazy from the developers that we need a 3rd party site to keep track of the boss events going on.

Chipster.6713:

Rexurus.3526:

Very well said.

To be honest the whole concept for this game is getting narrowed by the players most of all. It’s all about farming, looting, chests and farming… it’s not about venturing and traveling where you enjoy the atmosphere and events along the way anymore.

You can compare it to the way Diablo 2 was. "Run through tristram in a big group. Run through Cows, do baalruns etc. It’s all about having a big group rushing and smashing things while getting a reward for it. I don’t know why it’s fun but it is. It beats having to run alone for hours without anything happening. That way the game will die pretty kitten fast.

The world is only that big and the impressions of discovering it and seeing the dragons for the first time won’t last forever. You will get to a point where you need efficiency. On that note, I think it’s lazy from the developers that we need a 3rd party site to keep track of the boss events going on.

There’s a middle ground though. You can be in a smaller group with guildies, which many people enjoy (where as they don’t necessarily enjoy running with a zerg). So it’s not just play alone or play with a zerg.

You can play with friends and not zerg.

Vayne.8563:

Take the dragon events. They were sort of fun before Anet increased the rewards. They went from relatively fun events to horrible zerg events. The loot effectively destroyed the events, but they were more popular than ever. I don’t think Anet ever saw their game as a loot train…but they still made the change.
.

The dragon events? They were completely empty before the bonus chest came along. It was to a point where I actually quit the game because 90% of the time, I was the only guy there and my guildies didn’t want to come, because the “rewards” it gave weren’t even enough to cover the waypoint cost.

I think the loot increase was for the better. It has set the prices on Black lion higher and that’s a good thing. I had countless times tried to sell crafting mats there that couldn’t even go past vendor price. The game is not perfect but it’s getting better.

There’s a middle ground though. You can be in a smaller group with guildies, which many people enjoy (where as they don’t necessarily enjoy running with a zerg). So it’s not just play alone or play with a zerg.

You can play with friends and not zerg

The zerk is a side effect to the events actually giving something rather than before. I agree it isn’t challenging at all, but it indicates that it’s still worth doing.
When I play with friends we play dungeons

Lol… the answer to the OP’s question is yes. Yes they are.

Chipster.6713:

Vayne.8563:

Take the dragon events. They were sort of fun before Anet increased the rewards. They went from relatively fun events to horrible zerg events. The loot effectively destroyed the events, but they were more popular than ever. I don’t think Anet ever saw their game as a loot train…but they still made the change.
.

The dragon events? They were completely empty before the bonus chest came along. It was to a point where I actually quit the game because 90% of the time, I was the only guy there and my guildies didn’t want to come, because the “rewards” it gave weren’t even enough to cover the waypoint cost.

I think the loot increase was for the better. It has set the prices on Black lion higher and that’s a good thing. I had countless times tried to sell crafting mats there that couldn’t even go past vendor price. The game is not perfect but it’s getting better.

On my server, we often found enough people to do those events. But we didn’t do them on a treadmill.

Chancing upon stuff like that makes the world feel alive (which is what Anet is reportedly going for). Finding a timer, and following a zerg trivializes the content. I’m not the only one who feels this way. Right now, most of the meta events are jokes.

I’m pretty sure anet’s reaction to most of the players is something like

Vayne.8563:

Chipster.6713:

Vayne.8563:

Take the dragon events. They were sort of fun before Anet increased the rewards. They went from relatively fun events to horrible zerg events. The loot effectively destroyed the events, but they were more popular than ever. I don’t think Anet ever saw their game as a loot train…but they still made the change.
.

The dragon events? They were completely empty before the bonus chest came along. It was to a point where I actually quit the game because 90% of the time, I was the only guy there and my guildies didn’t want to come, because the “rewards” it gave weren’t even enough to cover the waypoint cost.

I think the loot increase was for the better. It has set the prices on Black lion higher and that’s a good thing. I had countless times tried to sell crafting mats there that couldn’t even go past vendor price. The game is not perfect but it’s getting better.

On my server, we often found enough people to do those events. But we didn’t do them on a treadmill.

Chancing upon stuff like that makes the world feel alive (which is what Anet is reportedly going for). Finding a timer, and following a zerg trivializes the content. I’m not the only one who feels this way. Right now, most of the meta events are jokes.

So I guess you haven’t explored the world yet. I have seen it all twice and it didn’t impress me much the second time. You’re not going to find me goofing around in the world doing nothing and then suddenly an event appears 5 minutes before I have to go to work. I have limited playtime and logging in daily to check timers and see if I can participate in an event and doing my dailies is, most of the time, all the time I can spare. So it works for me.

If we follow your suggestion and all timers should be shut down, then all events should give boss chests and bonus chest, otherwise you would have absolutely no chance of getting those. It’s not like there’s anything else to do in this game except for PvP and farming dungeons. At least it makes people go out in the open world and doing something there.

Chipster.6713:

Vayne.8563:

Chipster.6713:

Vayne.8563:

Take the dragon events. They were sort of fun before Anet increased the rewards. They went from relatively fun events to horrible zerg events. The loot effectively destroyed the events, but they were more popular than ever. I don’t think Anet ever saw their game as a loot train…but they still made the change.
.

The dragon events? They were completely empty before the bonus chest came along. It was to a point where I actually quit the game because 90% of the time, I was the only guy there and my guildies didn’t want to come, because the “rewards” it gave weren’t even enough to cover the waypoint cost.

I think the loot increase was for the better. It has set the prices on Black lion higher and that’s a good thing. I had countless times tried to sell crafting mats there that couldn’t even go past vendor price. The game is not perfect but it’s getting better.

On my server, we often found enough people to do those events. But we didn’t do them on a treadmill.

Chancing upon stuff like that makes the world feel alive (which is what Anet is reportedly going for). Finding a timer, and following a zerg trivializes the content. I’m not the only one who feels this way. Right now, most of the meta events are jokes.

So I guess you haven’t explored the world yet. I have seen it all twice and it didn’t impress me much the second time. You’re not going to find me goofing around in the world doing nothing and then suddenly an event appears 5 minutes before I have to go to work. I have limited playtime and logging in daily to check timers and see if I can participate in an event and doing my dailies is, most of the time, all the time I can spare. So it works for me.

If we follow your suggestion and all timers should be shut down, then all events should give boss chests and bonus chest, otherwise you would have absolutely no chance of getting those. It’s not like there’s anything else to do in this game except for PvP and farming dungeons. At least it makes people go out in the open world and doing something there.

I understand your point, perfectly. There’s no easy answer to this. Those events are completely ruined for some people, even if they’re not ruined for you. There have been several threads about it on the forums, none of them by me.

But getting people into the zone, so they can AFK until the dragon appears and then hit 1 and AFK to get their free gold doesn’t strike me as being great for the game either. Sure they’re out in the world…but so what.

The real answer would be to make something else more profitable, so that not everyone does just that…at least I think that’s the answer.

But whether it works for you or not doesn’t stop it from being a problem for the game.

Shockwave.1230:

ilr.9675:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

ilr.9675:

(which we adapted to by HAVING to recruit a “Shadowform Tank” every single time)…

I don’t recall doing that when I did it, I just would pack blinding skills like “Throw Dirt” or such and others would do similar.

You couldn’t blind the 4 Horsemen, AND their pack of 20 Dryders on both sides, and the 6-8 Dhuum Skellies that also piled in with them… what is this I don’t even… You must have done it way before they changed everything by adding Dhuum and the Extra Dryders (also this …which was just as bad usually)

I wonder how much of the Guild Wars 2 community has any idea of what this means, lol. This conversation is nostalgic.

Folks, I cannot lie.

We did it after Dhuum. We did it with some tactics I can’t rightfully remember but I remember it was hilariously “win big or fail big” on the Four Horsemen. I remember they had me tank the invulnerable Aataxes with Blind while we hit the dryders supporting them hard. I remember feeling pumped we passed the Ice King because we almost always lost on that one OR Horsemen and we’d passed them both.

I remember chain GDW on my pet Elder Wolf making Dhuum a laughingstock.

And while I don’t remember ALL the details down to what builds everyone was running? I remember we beat it, it was hilarious fun, and the month after that we went to hit up Mallyx for some shinies.

Vayne.8563:

FluffyDoe.7539:

Vayne.8563:

FluffyDoe.7539:

ilr.9675:

But yeah, there was also some really good points in here and elsewhere about why D.E.’s by themselves let the Players down first, way before the players let Anet down.

This might sound somewhat accusing but, Anet has been making changes to GW2 the game in a way that seems suspecting according to the feedbacks on this forum (from personally what I saw for nearly a year now).

Even though I can’t be sure of this; but from the outside looking in, it seems Anet only responds to feedbacks that fits their pre-constructed personal and cultural idea for the game even if some aspects of the game play designs would be better off going in another direction than where it currently is headed. [of course, these are just my personal view of the game’s progression since GW2 launched several months ago]

Logically speaking, a company can do nothing else. Because feed back on forums is very seldomly one sided.

Even when they’ve increased rewards (which was based on feedback) there were people posting here saying rewards should be nerfed.

It’s very easy to get the idea that the feedback you see is what most players want…the problem is most players don’t give feedback and the most vocal players also tend to be the hardest core, or at least those with the most stake.

Take the dragon events. They were sort of fun before Anet increased the rewards. They went from relatively fun events to horrible zerg events. The loot effectively destroyed the events, but they were more popular than ever. I don’t think Anet ever saw their game as a loot train…but they still made the change.

So no, I don’t think this analysis is necessarily accurate. By the same token, they won’t make a change that derails what they want to do with the game, because there are people who like that stuff too.

I mean every time a new patch comes out, the place gets mad crowded. Someone must be playing it and liking it.

To me it sounds like you are on the side that supports Anet, and also on the side that doesn’t actually believe there is a solution. aka. the side that’s objectively doing nothing because they’re afraid to screw up a mediocre game (sorry if that sounded harsh although that’s imo the truth).

You’re wrong. What I think we have is different things work for different people period. The farmers are happy that they can farm, but those who don’t want to farm and don’t enjoy finding end up far behind if they don’t farm. Inflation, because a portion of the population does have money, puts many things out of reach of those who don’t want to farm. Both sides can’t be pleased, because both sides what different things.

Anet’s job is to find a compromise that works for both sides, and that’s not going to happen for everyone. So the problem persists.

But that doesn’t mean I do nothing. I fight for the stuff important to my side.

You are missing the point. Anet does not compromise the different sides of community, they only compromise “collected data results” with “community feedbacks”, so when you think Anet is simply our mediator (a person who gives compensations for different sides) for this virtual society right here, in fact Anet has total control of what happens.

And based on the amount of commotions in this forum for the past “10-11 months” (a long time), the lack of truly solid improvements of the game is questionable at this point of time.

IMO it is a marketing strategy like the Dallas Cowboys in American Football → every year they make you believe that they’ll do something special and every year they find a way to mess it up.

Take that analogy and put it beside GW2: every update they make you believe that a big change is coming to DEs and such and the every next update I see, all that happens is: player switch dungeons to zerg.

Vayne.8563:

I understand your point, perfectly. There’s no easy answer to this. Those events are completely ruined for some people, even if they’re not ruined for you. There have been several threads about it on the forums, none of them by me.

But getting people into the zone, so they can AFK until the dragon appears and then hit 1 and AFK to get their free gold doesn’t strike me as being great for the game either. Sure they’re out in the world…but so what.

The real answer would be to make something else more profitable, so that not everyone does just that…at least I think that’s the answer.

But whether it works for you or not doesn’t stop it from being a problem for the game.

I can see things from your side as well and I understand what you want.
It would indeed be cool if we had tons of things to do in the open world and suddenly out of nowhere, a huge boss appears.

The closest we can get to this is queensdale where people farm champion mobs (for some strange reason) and then behemoth spawns.. But the harsh truth about this is; You’re barely informed about him. There could be a sound or a map ping about it, because when you’re doing another event, you won’t see it on the “zone status”.. Currently you’ve got players typing in /map behe spawned (when he’s at 50% health).. and before you can even get to him, he’s dead and you missed out. The timers at least prevent this.

I do realize that the current system is not challenging and people with ranged weapons can pretty much /afk autoshot. Tbh it’s not really any more different than the zerkfest that is raidfinder in WoW. But I just don’t see how it can be drastically changed.

I wouldn’t say that Anet is disappointed by players as much as I’d say that I am disappointed by other players. What is going in in Guild Wars 2 isn’t new, and I have stories from the past to tell on the issue. For a historical example:

My ex-wife City of Heroes once released something called the Mission Architect; a tool which let players design instanced story missions using various in-game tools. Given the story driven nature of the game, this would’ve let players expand on the NPCs in any way they wanted, make their own custom enemy groups, make their own custom friendly groups, write stories for their characters or other characters, and make content as difficult or as easy as possible. They wanted to reward players for their work, so anyone running these missions would still receive money and experience as if it were normal play.

So, with expansive content-designing tools and story telling devices, along with access to nearly every map and NPC and customized character creator, what is it that the players as a whole did with this tool? By and large, players made farms and exploits. Just thousands upon thousands of farms, each one exploiting some mechanic in the experience reward system to give an inordinate amount of experience. Of course, the exploits themselves would get fixed, so there was always a new “farm” to run, and the old farms would clutter the system, and the player given ratings were often based on farms, so the quality assurance of any mission you went in to was shot because of this. Eventually, people stopped going to the Mission Architect because it was cluttered with broken farms, with no way to discern story driven, humorous, dramatic, fun, all around entertaining missions from the garbage that littered the Mission Architect.

This stands out to me as a pinnacle example of the way MMORPG players are. It isn’t ‘getting tired of old content" because there was oodles of new player-made content to play, with more getting released every day. It wasn’t about “having nothing else to do” because there was always new content, and the themselves can make something interesting. It wasn’t about flaws mission design because you made your own missions, and people could fix the problems they had with the game. It wasn’t for lack of storytelling because there were always good writers around, with CoH actively drawing the comic book crowd. The developers gave the tools to the players to make their own storis, expecting the influx of peer-reviewed stories and missions to provide exponentially more content and longevity than the developers themselves could ever hope to make. What they received were countless farming exploits that ruined the Mission Architect for everyone else.

I often hear the term “escapism” attributed to MMOs, and I’d have to say that I agree now. There are many things that you can have in an MMO: awe inspiring landscapes, exploration, a sense of wonder, competition, challenge, enthralling stories of tragedy and humor, interactive and engaging gameplay, etc. The problem with this is the fact that you can get all of these things elsewhere, from TV to books to other non-MMO videogames. So, you have to truly ask what is it that draws people to an MMO, when everything the MMO advertises is available elsewhere? In the end, it amounts to players wanting a skinner box to call home, and players wanting a sense of superiority over others through statistical values (better gear, more money, higher levels) rather than actual skill (AKA something like Street Fighter).

Chipster.6713:

I do realize that the current system is not challenging and people with ranged weapons can pretty much /afk autoshot. Tbh it’s not really any more different than the zerkfest that is raidfinder in WoW. But I just don’t see how it can be drastically changed.

In another game I play from time to time one of the world bosses moves around. As in around the zone. You cannot afk autoattack a boss that moves away. In order to take this boss out players generally coordinate so that groups stalk his known stopping points while asking for sightings in zone chat. I’m not suggesting that every boss hop around his zone, but there are ways to ensure that people are not akitteng (AFK’ing) encounters.

FluffyDoe.7539:

You are missing the point. Anet does not compromise the different sides of community, they only compromise “collected data results” with “community feedbacks”, so when you think Anet is simply our mediator (a person who gives compensations for different sides) for this virtual society right here, in fact Anet has total control of what happens.

And based on the amount of commotions in this forum for the past “10-11 months” (a long time), the lack of truly solid improvements of the game is questionable at this point of time.

It’s definitely worth reminding people ArenaNet is, in fact, the final arbiter of what they do with their game. Not the community, though they may listen and parse out what has been left on forums (not just this one, mind you) or said when they’re hanging around with their symbol out in game . . . but just because they listen, doesn’t make them beholden to do what we suggest.

And no, I don’t like a lot of things they do, and I agree a lot of the things (read: most) can be polished up better with some effort. But I also think maybe my definition of “better” isn’t necessarily for the best. So I just shrug, bear it . . . and if it gets too bad I play something else for a time to take my mind off it. Last month it was Catan. Before that it was Monster Hunter (gotta get them Heavenlies!) . . . again. Back at the start of the year I was wrestling DOSBox to allow me to replay UFO: Enemy Unknown.

I have a lot of games here . . . if I get bored with one I can play another for a time. And I don’t pay for the right to come back and play when it suits me. That’s why I like this game for all its faults.

Events are always exactly same and don’t really have meaningful impact on the world (finish an event, go afk for ~10 mins, get back and you might be middle of same event you just did while ago). It just feels that whatever you do, in about 1 hour it has been wiped clean.
I know it would be a lot of work to add much more events to have a long-lasting impact but they could at least randomize enemies you face/path you take.

Ashen.2907:

Chipster.6713:

I do realize that the current system is not challenging and people with ranged weapons can pretty much /afk autoshot. Tbh it’s not really any more different than the zerkfest that is raidfinder in WoW. But I just don’t see how it can be drastically changed.

In another game I play from time to time one of the world bosses moves around. As in around the zone. You cannot afk autoattack a boss that moves away. In order to take this boss out players generally coordinate so that groups stalk his known stopping points while asking for sightings in zone chat. I’m not suggesting that every boss hop around his zone, but there are ways to ensure that people are not akitteng (AFK’ing) encounters.

It sounds great, but I can’t help but being sceptic
Let’s say that we implement those bosses in GW2: I guess those bosses have spawn times as well. They are not just there 24/7 I imagine. If people learn their spawn timers, they will farm them the same way.

It would just be a question about players splitting up and running around in zones searching for the bosses and write in chat “found him”.
You cannot prevent efficient players from playing efficient.

The main reason for the /afk shoot’n’loot is the huge numbers of players doing these things. Trust me, I’ve tried taking on shatterer with only me and 2 other people. It wasn’t possible. On the other hand, the difficulty isn’t scaled for 100+ people constantly providing boons, cleanses and a ton of damage.

FluffyDoe.7539:

Vayne.8563:

FluffyDoe.7539:

Vayne.8563:

FluffyDoe.7539:

ilr.9675:

But yeah, there was also some really good points in here and elsewhere about why D.E.’s by themselves let the Players down first, way before the players let Anet down.

This might sound somewhat accusing but, Anet has been making changes to GW2 the game in a way that seems suspecting according to the feedbacks on this forum (from personally what I saw for nearly a year now).

Even though I can’t be sure of this; but from the outside looking in, it seems Anet only responds to feedbacks that fits their pre-constructed personal and cultural idea for the game even if some aspects of the game play designs would be better off going in another direction than where it currently is headed. [of course, these are just my personal view of the game’s progression since GW2 launched several months ago]

Logically speaking, a company can do nothing else. Because feed back on forums is very seldomly one sided.

Even when they’ve increased rewards (which was based on feedback) there were people posting here saying rewards should be nerfed.

It’s very easy to get the idea that the feedback you see is what most players want…the problem is most players don’t give feedback and the most vocal players also tend to be the hardest core, or at least those with the most stake.

Take the dragon events. They were sort of fun before Anet increased the rewards. They went from relatively fun events to horrible zerg events. The loot effectively destroyed the events, but they were more popular than ever. I don’t think Anet ever saw their game as a loot train…but they still made the change.

So no, I don’t think this analysis is necessarily accurate. By the same token, they won’t make a change that derails what they want to do with the game, because there are people who like that stuff too.

I mean every time a new patch comes out, the place gets mad crowded. Someone must be playing it and liking it.

To me it sounds like you are on the side that supports Anet, and also on the side that doesn’t actually believe there is a solution. aka. the side that’s objectively doing nothing because they’re afraid to screw up a mediocre game (sorry if that sounded harsh although that’s imo the truth).

You’re wrong. What I think we have is different things work for different people period. The farmers are happy that they can farm, but those who don’t want to farm and don’t enjoy finding end up far behind if they don’t farm. Inflation, because a portion of the population does have money, puts many things out of reach of those who don’t want to farm. Both sides can’t be pleased, because both sides what different things.

Anet’s job is to find a compromise that works for both sides, and that’s not going to happen for everyone. So the problem persists.

But that doesn’t mean I do nothing. I fight for the stuff important to my side.

You are missing the point. Anet does not compromise the different sides of community, they only compromise “collected data results” with “community feedbacks”, so when you think Anet is simply our mediator (a person who gives compensations for different sides) for this virtual society right here, in fact Anet has total control of what happens.

And based on the amount of commotions in this forum for the past “10-11 months” (a long time), the lack of truly solid improvements of the game is questionable at this point of time.

IMO it is a marketing strategy like the Dallas Cowboys in American Football -> every year they make you believe that they’ll do something special and every year they find a way to mess it up.

Take that analogy and put it beside GW2: every update they make you believe that a big change is coming to DEs and such and the every next update I see, all that happens is: player switch dungeons to zerg.

You’d be right if there weren’t players who didn’t feel the game is improving, but some people do.

It may not be improving for me, but it’s likely improving for someone. It’s obviously not improving for you. But that doesn’t mean it’s not improving.

You’re talking about improving as if there’s one thing or one way to improve. But different sides are still going to see different things as improvements.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

My ex-wife City of Heroes …

… In the end, it amounts to players wanting a skinner box to call home, and players wanting a sense of superiority over others through statistical values (better gear, more money, higher levels) rather than actual skill (AKA something like Street Fighter).

heh, did I ever mention I led one of the only teams that ever got Master of the Lord Recluse Strike Force without using a Perma-Dom Mind troller? …. Heh, used to brag about that like it was going out of style. The one thing I never mentioned though was that we used atleast 3 different other Exploits that no one knew about (b/c they were on powersets that no one else really played as the FotM/Meta).

Status is a motivator. Even if it’s just Nerd Status. Look at all these Hipsters who never would have gone anywhere near an RPG or Computer Game ~15 years ago b/c they “weren’t Cool then”. …I think that probably describes most of Anet’s marketing dept infact…

Chipster.6713:

Vayne.8563:

I understand your point, perfectly. There’s no easy answer to this. Those events are completely ruined for some people, even if they’re not ruined for you. There have been several threads about it on the forums, none of them by me.

But getting people into the zone, so they can AFK until the dragon appears and then hit 1 and AFK to get their free gold doesn’t strike me as being great for the game either. Sure they’re out in the world…but so what.

The real answer would be to make something else more profitable, so that not everyone does just that…at least I think that’s the answer.

But whether it works for you or not doesn’t stop it from being a problem for the game.

I can see things from your side as well and I understand what you want.
It would indeed be cool if we had tons of things to do in the open world and suddenly out of nowhere, a huge boss appears.

The closest we can get to this is queensdale where people farm champion mobs (for some strange reason) and then behemoth spawns.. But the harsh truth about this is; You’re barely informed about him. There could be a sound or a map ping about it, because when you’re doing another event, you won’t see it on the “zone status”.. Currently you’ve got players typing in /map behe spawned (when he’s at 50% health).. and before you can even get to him, he’s dead and you missed out. The timers at least prevent this.

I do realize that the current system is not challenging and people with ranged weapons can pretty much /afk autoshot. Tbh it’s not really any more different than the zerkfest that is raidfinder in WoW. But I just don’t see how it can be drastically changed.

The first time I saw the wurm in Caledeon Forest, it wasn’t on my radar at all. Out of nowhere, I’m doing this event, and this giant wurm came out of the ground, almost right on top of me. It was early on in the game and I never forgot that feeling.

How could it change? By Anet having some events that don’t always repeat, but happen rarely, randomly, and without warning, scattered around the world. It’s a lot of work to make it happen, but it would definitely be cool.

Vayne.8563:

The first time I saw the wurm in Caledeon Forest, it wasn’t on my radar at all. Out of nowhere, I’m doing this event, and this giant wurm came out of the ground, almost right on top of me. It was early on in the game and I never forgot that feeling.

How could it change? By Anet having some events that don’t always repeat, but happen rarely, randomly, and without warning, scattered around the world. It’s a lot of work to make it happen, but it would definitely be cool.

No doubt. It would indeed provide an awesome gameplay experience.. But I can’t help thinking, what are we supposed to do when there is no wyrm spawning? It’s not like escorting a caravan for 200 karma points is something I would use my day off on.. The zones will remain empty untill there’s something besides the bosses to do in those zones. it has to be important if the bosses should just be a bonus to being in that area.

And the chances that you were at that very place at the right time is very slim. You might never had seen that wyrm with that huge spawn time. I didn’t see any of the bosses while leveling my first character to 80. I had to search google, browsing home pages untill I finally found out how, where and when to go to them.

Chipster.6713:

Vayne.8563:

The first time I saw the wurm in Caledeon Forest, it wasn’t on my radar at all. Out of nowhere, I’m doing this event, and this giant wurm came out of the ground, almost right on top of me. It was early on in the game and I never forgot that feeling.

How could it change? By Anet having some events that don’t always repeat, but happen rarely, randomly, and without warning, scattered around the world. It’s a lot of work to make it happen, but it would definitely be cool.

No doubt. It would indeed provide an awesome gameplay experience.. But I can’t help thinking, what are we supposed to do when there is no wyrm spawning? It’s not like escorting a caravan for 200 karma points is something I would use my day off on.. The zones will remain empty untill there’s something besides the bosses to do in those zones. it has to be important if the bosses should just be a bonus to being in that area.

And the chances that you were at that very place at the right time is very slim. You might never had seen that wyrm with that huge spawn time. I didn’t see any of the bosses while leveling my first character to 80. I had to search google, browsing home pages untill I finally found out how, where and when to go to them.

I actually think most people underestimate how many people are actually playing in the open world. It doesn’t seem like a lot, because we’re not all in the same place at the same time, like we are for a dragon event. But I think a lot of people like the open world and spread out through it.

I don’t think the people standing at events are greater in number than all the people spread out everywhere but, of course, there’s no real way to tell.

Ronah.2869:

Efficiency is the main goal of every player. All want the easiest way to obtain what they want: shinnies.

No, it really isn’t, not ALL. See, these things are called “Massively Multiplayer ONLINE ROLEPLAYING Games”. Originally the main goal of players, particularly in the predecessors of these games (MUDs, MOOs, etc.) was to spend time in a “virtual world” and play a role for fun. They didn’t need to engage in rp proper (which is actually quite a difficult thing, although rewarding in its own way), but the idea was to play pretend, and to achieve things in a virtual world that allowed them to achieve things (particularly with the help of other players) that would be noticed by other players. Originally, sometimes it was shinies, but just as often it was more intangible things, like a position in a faction, or something like that.

But over time, this sort of changed, and especially with the development of the subscription models, developers realized that there was a sub-group of players who were into achievement for achievement’s sake, and that those players could be relied upon to keep subscribing so long as there were sufficient hamster wheels to keep running on.

And hamster wheels are always easier to make than meaningful content.

So the genre skewed its direction. On the one hand, this broadened its appeal, which was nice; on the other hand, the genre lost some of its original meaning. Farming for shinies is something you can dip into and out of more easily than committing to a virtual life in a virtual world. So it’s not that most players want shinies, it’s that most players are casual players, and want a reward for whatever time they’re putting in.

So nowadays, the general idea of MMOs is to be virtual lobbies to get together to farm stuff. The whole “virtual world” and “roleplaying” aspect of them is still catered to a bit, but it’s receded into the background.

Now, it’s hamster wheels all the way down.

Anet have tried to buck the trend, they tried to create a beautiful world to adventure in, with interesting stories that you’d come across if you were roleplaying a virtual wanderer, etc. But now they’ve found that basically only a minority is interested in that content, most (not all, but most) just want to farm, like in every other MMO these days.

So, I think they must be a) a bit disappointed, but also b) quite willing to oblige.

Tenshi.3598:

Largely agree with Sirendor, except his conclusion I guess – bit overboard. But yes, gold should play a minimal role, and particularly serve as a safety net. Also, it should be given not for massacring mobs, but for playing the game.

That is key. Stop making RNG loot the primary mechanism to get the things we work for. DE’s? Let the primary reward be from DE completion – instead of the loot from mobs killed. Make Jumping Puzzles rewarding.

USE the DE system to its full extent. Player needs lodestones? Give him DEs that reward lodestones upon completion (say, for clearing an elemental infestation), instead of mindlessly killing the mobs over and over.

Balance DEs. Is a DE popular? Lower its rewards. Impopular? Raise rewards. This could probably be automated, and should ensure players won’t just try to do the most rewarding DEs.

Make DEs meaningful and impacting the world. Don’t have a dragon minion spawn every 2 hours. Make it a series of event lasting several hours across at least an entire map, culminating in a serious battle. Reward players based on how many events they helped in. Say it’s a series of 10 DEs: the player who does the first 9 before logging, gets a major reward; he who just logs in to slay the dragon, gets little. Afterwards, plenty of DEs in rebuilding the villages that were burned down (/frozen solid/crystallized/undeaded/devoured by Oblivion gat…nvm).

And that’s just basic suggestions. Area gets neglected? Let it be overrun, with only main roads remaining safe (somewhat). Make visuals for players to see what maps need help, and make all rewarding for lvl 80 players.

Another one: fewer mobs. Exploration gets annoying if you’re just battling through mobs and hoping you don’t get respawns in your face. Just compare the landscapes of Skyrim and Tyria… and yes, it’ll mean some zones get almost cleaned out by players. So? That’ll give them some incentive to go somewhere they’re actually needed.

Could also make the map status impact the world. Most maps overrun? With trade routes broken, various costs increase, and DE npc’s can’t pay their saviours as much. As players help in taking back zones and rebuilding the settlements, those rewards will increase again.

Pretty much all of that, seems to me, is extending the DE system. Adding new DEs is a means to that end. Yes it’d take time to do that – how about doing that for monthly updates?

And while at it: make it all in tune with the endgame shinies. Legendaries and ascended gear should NOT be a matter of grinding, nor of doing stuff we don’t like. It should be goals you’re working towards just by playing the game – working for it just means you focus your efforts on something specific. Make it depend on skill, and some persistence. Minimize RNG, it’s cheap and if half the vision of GW2 is true, ANet can do better than that.

That’s enough for now I think. To respond to the topic title: if ANet’s disappointed in its players, it failed to take the lessons of the past. If you make your rewards depend on grind, people will do that, and once a bunch does that, the rest is drawn into that by the economy. Players respond to how the game behaves, and that’s how developers have that power. So make sure the game rewards the behaviour you wish to see; take action against players who’ll break rules in their farming behaviour; make the game interesting. DEs can do all this, and more. That’s why I saw it as vision – something that has yet to materialize. I understand Divity’s Reach wasn’t built in one day, but ANet’s had about a year to work out the child’s diseases and get a basic structure of year-round dynamic content. Now it’s time to start fulfilling the true promise of the game.

You have completely hit the point. My conclusion (no economy) was a bit exaggerated indeed, gold should just be of lesser importance. Anet doesn’t want us to “play the game” … then they should think about making everything in the game equally profitable.

I don’t really get what youre trying to say. What else are players going to do?

Btw there are plenty of non-grinder/farmer classic mmorpg players. They played the game, levelled up, played dynamic quests, played the personal story, completed a bunch of dungeons/fractals/jumping puzzles/guild missions, maybe got map completion, tried some spvp and wvw (and presumably didn’t like it or preferred other pvp games, or they would still play). They all have either quit or just log in for a short time every few weeks to check out new content. I would guess the majority of players fall into this category. Any player which plays longer is either pvp player or grinder (grinder because clearly they would be repeating content they have already done a LOT of). I would like to say i fall in this cateogry of “players who have basically stopped playing” but lol no i am a qqer, and i doubt most of these people bother posting on forums.

I wish I could spend hours and hours coming up with fun and unique builds that I could use in groups with my friends.

The ‘carrot’ for me was the skill system.

If an expansion had come out by now (that introduced new skills and weapon sets or classes) I may have purchased it.

The two-week interval Gem Store updates are a no go for me though.

Yes OP, Anet has been hurt and let down by their player base. As such has been made clear in several of the comments made by devs in the live streams and in interviews. One of the recent linked interviews states directly that it hurts to see so many rip apart the living story content that they (the devs) worked so hard to build, and felt good about.

Yes, some of the players feel let down by Anet, as GW2 didn’t turn out to be exactly what they hoped/dreamed/imagined it would be. However, we set ourselves up for this let down to some extent. We put GW2 on a pedestal before it was even launched. We didn’t take what we were told with a grain of salt, when they hyped the game. We took what they said, word for word as absolute ’ literal truth’ however, everyone’s interpretation of that truth is different. What Anet intended, or meant, may not have been how the player perceived or took it. However, that is not anets fault. We did not ask enough, or the right kinds, of questions apparently, in our searches to determine what they actually meant by what was being said. This is our failing, not theirs, and they have tried again and again to clarify but we refuse to listen.

And yet, they have stated again and again that they are listening to us, are still listening, and are trying to give us some of the things so many are crying for. They haven’t given up, even though they feel sucker punched. They havent given up on us, so why have so many given up on them?

While it is true that the game will never be everything to everyone, that is simply cannot be, it doesn’t mean that is not ‘good’ in its own right. Yes, it needs some work, but it isnt as broken, as messy, as bad kitten many seem to think it is. Its still young, and development takes time. They have a plan that they are following, but are still trying to be flexible in meeting some of the things we are asking for. I say people need to have patience. Take a break, play something else, come back later.

This initial year of GW2, is essentially their Prophecies phase. Prophecies was messy, had bugs, lacked direction, and overall had a story that was pretty kitten hard to follow, especially if you ended up getting things out of order because you missed a quest, or got lost. Anet is basically starting all over again from scratch. Yes, they have the knowledge they gained from making GW1, but it was a different animal. They are trying new things here, and it will take time to get things going smoothly. Again, I suggest simply having some patience. IF the current game isn’t your cup of tea, then walk away. Check back in 6 months, a year..see if it meets your ‘needs’ then, and if not, then perhaps its just not your game.

GW2 is not GW1. The soul is the same, but they are different entities….

Waar Kijk Je Naar.8713:

Dynamic events are hardly dynamic. Before launch we were told these would impact the world and bosses wouldn’t just respawn 10 minutes later as if nothing happened.

As it is, bosses do respawn in 10 minutes(sometimes more, or less) and the only way events impact the world is by a junk-selling merchant appearing or a dungeon entrance getting closed…

Perhaps people would bother with events if the rewards weren’t so meager (3s and <400 karma for a max-level event?) and if the impacts would be greater.

“Oh, you didn’t bother defending Nebo Terrace and the Ascalon Settlement? Well, Lion’s Arch is now under siege. All LA waypoints, merchants, banks, etc are disabled until the siege is lifted. The only way to leave or enter the city is by Asura gate. Centaurs are slaughtering all afk players in the city and bandits steal their armor and weapons.”

^ Nothing like that would ever happen. Chasing lost cows and chickens is dynamic enough for Anet.

Mmm…lost cows and chickens + my engineer and his flame thrower = BBQ!!

If only it were possible, to alter an event outcome like that. Many races, many professions but only one solution? Very odd.