Guild Wars 2

Lmfao, “create elitism.”

Such an ignorant thing to say. Elitism exists on all games and is already and has been rampant throughout GW2 since launch and will always exist. As long as there’s a disparity of skill level, which there always will be, then there will always be people who get fed up with crappy players being on their team and will try to avoid it happening.

There’s literally no possible way to completely eliminate elitism from happening in combat oriented settings unless you normalise any and all possible output from every single piece of equipment, skill, and level of all players in the game.

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

Nemesis.8593:

…

However without a damage meter i fear we are looking at another 2 years of “meta builds” which work from about 50% less of what they are advertised at via math-in-a-void all… the way to 5% based on the encounter’s mechanics.
…

Essentially this guys.

Unfortunately or fortunately (depending on how you look at it), there will always be a “meta”. A mass amount of people will accept like always, and will doing the normal/expected thing of excluding casuals and whatnot… It’s unavoidable, undeniable, inevitable – get over it.

So, why not have the proper tools to do it right? To actually build a meta on solid data rather than napkin notes. It’s not as harmful as people think. Of course they can make the dps meter just show personal dps, so that dps isn’t the reason someone is kicked (since other’s still can’t see it).

a damage meter is very harmful for the community it will destroy the very fabric of what makes guild war great! Guild war at its current state is a very friendly game. For example I just completely a level 100 fractal after 20 wipes and nobody complained we just kept trying until we succeed! now imagine what a damage meter will do? people will whine complain and boot, it is not the game i want!
plus I think a lot of the fun is not knowing how good your build really is, it is about experimenting and feeling the game and the character!

Couple of things…

The dps meter can be either personal or not-personal (group can see it), it will have different effects. In the event that the group can see your dps, that will be the reason they kick you. In the event that the group can’t see your dps, you will be kicked due to not complying with the “meta” (which WILL exist, regardless of having a meter or not.)

Having a personal dps meter, which will leading to creating a meta based on factual data will lead to better meta builds.

The fact that you wiped 20 times and no one complained, isn’t because a dps meter didn’t exist. It’s because the group allowed it, they weren’t impatient. Perhaps, they didn’t even care for meta builds either.

Having a personal dps meter will lead to no change in community, but will lead to solid meta builds with real numbers as proofs. Since, let me explain it again, since people won’t be able to kick you for dps (since they can’t see it), they will still kick you for not complying to the meta if it’s something they care about (which already happens!). Which again, in your case of wiping 20 times, people perhaps weren’t impatient and maybe didn’t care for the meta…

You’re not afraid of a personal dps meter, you’re afraid of the meta and the people that care too much for it.

---

Hell, it will even help you experiment properly with different builds.

I honestly don’t see any harm from having personal dps meters.

we dont need a dps meter for meta, as I have played many RPG I know all the harm a dps meter can do to a group moral. When I was raid leading in world of warcraft one of the biggest rules is never insult me the raid leader, because as a raid leader I am responsible for group moral. Usually what happens is a tank who thinks he is so valuable to the raid he can say whatever he want and insult anyone he wants, and it usually is a big surprise when I boot his kitten . You see where I am going? if people join raid, get booted, get harassed, get kicked, get insulted, this ripple effect will effect every other part of the game, and over time guild war 2 will become just like wow, and I did not buy guild war 2 because it is like wow, i bought guild war 2 excatly because it is not wow. I also strongly believe the best part of the game is not have a damage meter, this allows me to try different build and to get a feel for different build, that alone is worth the price of admission!

Okay, clearly you’re either not reading or/and or comprehending the things I’ve said.

Thanks for the small argument we had.

i can say the same thing about what u said! you dont seem to understand me clearly either! have you played diablo 3? do you see a damage meter in that game? and does everyone in that game optimize for best build and can everyone run high great rift? i mean very high? you are obviously a noob to mmo!

Yet, meta builds in that game still exist. Groups still don’t take you seriously if you don’t run a certain class and certain build.

Not sure how that’s different or better. It’s the same, and a personal dps meter will not change that.

its fine if a group does not want certain build, see you dont get my point, my point is all about the harm a dps meter will bring to the friendly community which is guild war 2! if you cant see that then you are not very smart!

HOW can a personal dps meter bring more harm.

Personal dps meter meaning, you will only see your own dps, you will not see anyone else.

PLEASE EXPLAIN.

Hell, maybe I’m not smart. Care to enlighten me?

Btw, your personal attacks, are really showing how friendly the gw2 community is. Keep at it buddy.

Purple Miku.7032:

Lmfao, “create elitism.”

Such an ignorant thing to say. Elitism exists on all games and is already and has been rampant throughout GW2 since launch and will always exist. As long as there’s a disparity of skill level, which there always will be, then there will always be people who get fed up with crappy players being on their team and will try to avoid it happening.

There’s literally no possible way to completely eliminate elitism from happening in combat oriented settings unless you normalise any and all possible output from every single piece of equipment, skill, and level of all players in the game.

did you even read my post friend? if you have then you would of know elitism is only part of the argument and the other part is about maintaining a friendly atmosphere where everyone can learn and excel at the game together!

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

we dont need a dps meter for meta, as I have played many RPG I know all the harm a dps meter can do to a group moral. When I was raid leading in world of warcraft one of the biggest rules is never insult me the raid leader, because as a raid leader I am responsible for group moral. Usually what happens is a tank who thinks he is so valuable to the raid he can say whatever he want and insult anyone he wants, and it usually is a big surprise when I boot his kitten . You see where I am going? if people join raid, get booted, get harassed, get kicked, get insulted, this ripple effect will effect every other part of the game, and over time guild war 2 will become just like wow, and I did not buy guild war 2 because it is like wow, i bought guild war 2 excatly because it is not wow. I also strongly believe the best part of the game is not have a damage meter, this allows me to try different build and to get a feel for different build, that alone is worth the price of admission!

You’re conflating so many things in this wall of text.

You like trying different builds but you just don’t want to have any idea of the effectiveness of those builds in different encounters. Alright.

As for the community, I don’t know what game you’re playing or if you just play in a bubble. You must not play a necro or ranger either. I can tell you, back when dungeons were a thing, I had to justify my place in a number of groups before the run even started for stupid crap like CoE because a good number of people who PUG follow metabattle like it’s the gospel. Nevermind if metabattle ranks your build as “Great” no no no, it has to be “Meta”.

This isn’t a big secret, but I’ll fill you in since you seem unaware, “elitists” have been here since CoF p1 farm started right after launch. It’s fine if you don’t pay attention to this kind of thing but for the broader PvE community the theoretical math and meta builds have a big influence.

And on the subject of the community itself, we’re all MMO players. Most people who play GW2 have probably played WoW and a number of other MMOs. There is nothing inherently different about this group of nerds because it’s basically the same as the group of nerds playing that game over there. WoW, Wildstar, and FF14 all have their adorable Reddit posts and maymays too, I assure you. And like those games, you PUG a group and usually people don’t say a word.

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

Nemesis.8593:

…

However without a damage meter i fear we are looking at another 2 years of “meta builds” which work from about 50% less of what they are advertised at via math-in-a-void all… the way to 5% based on the encounter’s mechanics.
…

Essentially this guys.

Unfortunately or fortunately (depending on how you look at it), there will always be a “meta”. A mass amount of people will accept like always, and will doing the normal/expected thing of excluding casuals and whatnot… It’s unavoidable, undeniable, inevitable – get over it.

So, why not have the proper tools to do it right? To actually build a meta on solid data rather than napkin notes. It’s not as harmful as people think. Of course they can make the dps meter just show personal dps, so that dps isn’t the reason someone is kicked (since other’s still can’t see it).

a damage meter is very harmful for the community it will destroy the very fabric of what makes guild war great! Guild war at its current state is a very friendly game. For example I just completely a level 100 fractal after 20 wipes and nobody complained we just kept trying until we succeed! now imagine what a damage meter will do? people will whine complain and boot, it is not the game i want!
plus I think a lot of the fun is not knowing how good your build really is, it is about experimenting and feeling the game and the character!

Couple of things…

The dps meter can be either personal or not-personal (group can see it), it will have different effects. In the event that the group can see your dps, that will be the reason they kick you. In the event that the group can’t see your dps, you will be kicked due to not complying with the “meta” (which WILL exist, regardless of having a meter or not.)

Having a personal dps meter, which will leading to creating a meta based on factual data will lead to better meta builds.

The fact that you wiped 20 times and no one complained, isn’t because a dps meter didn’t exist. It’s because the group allowed it, they weren’t impatient. Perhaps, they didn’t even care for meta builds either.

Having a personal dps meter will lead to no change in community, but will lead to solid meta builds with real numbers as proofs. Since, let me explain it again, since people won’t be able to kick you for dps (since they can’t see it), they will still kick you for not complying to the meta if it’s something they care about (which already happens!). Which again, in your case of wiping 20 times, people perhaps weren’t impatient and maybe didn’t care for the meta…

You’re not afraid of a personal dps meter, you’re afraid of the meta and the people that care too much for it.

---

Hell, it will even help you experiment properly with different builds.

I honestly don’t see any harm from having personal dps meters.

we dont need a dps meter for meta, as I have played many RPG I know all the harm a dps meter can do to a group moral. When I was raid leading in world of warcraft one of the biggest rules is never insult me the raid leader, because as a raid leader I am responsible for group moral. Usually what happens is a tank who thinks he is so valuable to the raid he can say whatever he want and insult anyone he wants, and it usually is a big surprise when I boot his kitten . You see where I am going? if people join raid, get booted, get harassed, get kicked, get insulted, this ripple effect will effect every other part of the game, and over time guild war 2 will become just like wow, and I did not buy guild war 2 because it is like wow, i bought guild war 2 excatly because it is not wow. I also strongly believe the best part of the game is not have a damage meter, this allows me to try different build and to get a feel for different build, that alone is worth the price of admission!

Okay, clearly you’re either not reading or/and or comprehending the things I’ve said.

Thanks for the small argument we had.

i can say the same thing about what u said! you dont seem to understand me clearly either! have you played diablo 3? do you see a damage meter in that game? and does everyone in that game optimize for best build and can everyone run high great rift? i mean very high? you are obviously a noob to mmo!

Yet, meta builds in that game still exist. Groups still don’t take you seriously if you don’t run a certain class and certain build.

Not sure how that’s different or better. It’s the same, and a personal dps meter will not change that.

its fine if a group does not want certain build, see you dont get my point, my point is all about the harm a dps meter will bring to the friendly community which is guild war 2! if you cant see that then you are not very smart!

HOW can a personal dps meter bring more harm.

Personal dps meter meaning, you will only see your own dps, you will not see anyone else.

PLEASE EXPLAIN.

For example before each raid, the raid leader ask each member of the raid to post their best raid dps average on some website or in the chat or through instant messaging! and those who do not qualify are asked to leave immediately!

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

Nemesis.8593:

…

However without a damage meter i fear we are looking at another 2 years of “meta builds” which work from about 50% less of what they are advertised at via math-in-a-void all… the way to 5% based on the encounter’s mechanics.
…

Essentially this guys.

Unfortunately or fortunately (depending on how you look at it), there will always be a “meta”. A mass amount of people will accept like always, and will doing the normal/expected thing of excluding casuals and whatnot… It’s unavoidable, undeniable, inevitable – get over it.

So, why not have the proper tools to do it right? To actually build a meta on solid data rather than napkin notes. It’s not as harmful as people think. Of course they can make the dps meter just show personal dps, so that dps isn’t the reason someone is kicked (since other’s still can’t see it).

a damage meter is very harmful for the community it will destroy the very fabric of what makes guild war great! Guild war at its current state is a very friendly game. For example I just completely a level 100 fractal after 20 wipes and nobody complained we just kept trying until we succeed! now imagine what a damage meter will do? people will whine complain and boot, it is not the game i want!
plus I think a lot of the fun is not knowing how good your build really is, it is about experimenting and feeling the game and the character!

Couple of things…

The dps meter can be either personal or not-personal (group can see it), it will have different effects. In the event that the group can see your dps, that will be the reason they kick you. In the event that the group can’t see your dps, you will be kicked due to not complying with the “meta” (which WILL exist, regardless of having a meter or not.)

Having a personal dps meter, which will leading to creating a meta based on factual data will lead to better meta builds.

The fact that you wiped 20 times and no one complained, isn’t because a dps meter didn’t exist. It’s because the group allowed it, they weren’t impatient. Perhaps, they didn’t even care for meta builds either.

Having a personal dps meter will lead to no change in community, but will lead to solid meta builds with real numbers as proofs. Since, let me explain it again, since people won’t be able to kick you for dps (since they can’t see it), they will still kick you for not complying to the meta if it’s something they care about (which already happens!). Which again, in your case of wiping 20 times, people perhaps weren’t impatient and maybe didn’t care for the meta…

You’re not afraid of a personal dps meter, you’re afraid of the meta and the people that care too much for it.

---

Hell, it will even help you experiment properly with different builds.

I honestly don’t see any harm from having personal dps meters.

we dont need a dps meter for meta, as I have played many RPG I know all the harm a dps meter can do to a group moral. When I was raid leading in world of warcraft one of the biggest rules is never insult me the raid leader, because as a raid leader I am responsible for group moral. Usually what happens is a tank who thinks he is so valuable to the raid he can say whatever he want and insult anyone he wants, and it usually is a big surprise when I boot his kitten . You see where I am going? if people join raid, get booted, get harassed, get kicked, get insulted, this ripple effect will effect every other part of the game, and over time guild war 2 will become just like wow, and I did not buy guild war 2 because it is like wow, i bought guild war 2 excatly because it is not wow. I also strongly believe the best part of the game is not have a damage meter, this allows me to try different build and to get a feel for different build, that alone is worth the price of admission!

So you’re upset that someone calls you out for being useless?

In a raid situation, the group can not afford to have multiple people like you ‘experimenting’ with different builds. It’s more than than just being ‘meta’, it’s showing how much work you put out. If you are a bit weaker than other people, then it doesn’t matter. But if you’re considerably weaker, then there is an issue. And if you’re downed most of the time on top of that, then you’re an even bigger issue. And if you bring no useful utility on top of that, you’re almost a liability. Raids are supposed to be considerably harder compared to dungeons or fractals, and wiping on it twenty times is not my idea of fun.

Even with the DPS meters, you don’t have to play with the meta build if you can find another build that works. But you’re different, you actually don’t want the meter so you can slack off, as revealed by your countless HoT nerf threads. If you don’t want to work for the rewards, don’t do the content.

I never understand the argument for “how great a DPS meter is”, since we can go to games right now with a DPS meter and see how “wonderful” it is.

And while you can argue that the mighty few will use it properly to find the correct dps build, guess what the majority of players (you know, the ones that either don’t visit the forums at all, or very rarely), will do? Abuse the heck out of it or misuse it, causing more annoyances than needed.

People will be paying more attention to their numbers on the meter than what’s in the screen, thus missing when to dodge and just end up dying but “i hit 10k dps!”. Some people are downed and need help back up (note, not the dead dead, downed state), “but if I do that, my dps will suffer!”.

This is why even a personal one can cause problems, as again, focus will be on the meter and not the screen. Looking at it from a macro point of view, its a bad idea.

We can look at WoW and its Dps meters, and let me ask you this, how balanced are those classes in numbers? They aren’t? But they have so much outsourcing and people showing them the numbers to be adjusted!

How many instances in a dungeon group in WoW did you have someone linking the dps meter? In other words, their eyes weren’t on the screen, but on the meter. Or how often did you see someone in a raid standing in fire, continuing to dps because numbers?

So you can argue all you want how it can “make the game better”. I can already draw up current implementations and see how a dps meter hasn’t made a game any better at all.

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

For example before each raid, the raid leader ask each member of the raid to post their best raid dps average on some website or in the chat or through instant messaging! and those who do not qualify are asked to leave immediately!

This wouldn’t matter. People can still make a pug group that says “Experienced 10k+ DPS” and parsers do exist so they can check. Not having an official damage meter isn’t actually going to help at all it’s just going to cause more problems and false accusations of who isn’t pulling their weight in groups.

Serophous.9085:

So you can argue all you want how it can “make the game better”. I can already draw up current implementations and see how a dps meter hasn’t made a game any better at all.

Stupid people do stupid things. People already continue to DPS instead of rezing. People already continue to DPS while standing in fire. Not giving players a very useful tool because idiots will be idiots is just hurting people that actually want to try. If you’re really that bad it’s not like you’re going to be better off without it.

Anet needs to limit peoples posting… The OP if flooding the forums with his/her garbage.

Serophous.9085:

I never understand the argument for “how great a DPS meter is”, since we can go to games right now with a DPS meter and see how “wonderful” it is.

And while you can argue that the mighty few will use it properly to find the correct dps build, guess what the majority of players (you know, the ones that either don’t visit the forums at all, or very rarely), will do? Abuse the heck out of it or misuse it, causing more annoyances than needed.

People will be paying more attention to their numbers on the meter than what’s in the screen, thus missing when to dodge and just end up dying but “i hit 10k dps!”. Some people are downed and need help back up (note, not the dead dead, downed state), “but if I do that, my dps will suffer!”.

This is why even a personal one can cause problems, as again, focus will be on the meter and not the screen. Looking at it from a macro point of view, its a bad idea.

We can look at WoW and its Dps meters, and let me ask you this, how balanced are those classes in numbers? They aren’t? But they have so much outsourcing and people showing them the numbers to be adjusted!

How many instances in a dungeon group in WoW did you have someone linking the dps meter? In other words, their eyes weren’t on the screen, but on the meter. Or how often did you see someone in a raid standing in fire, continuing to dps because numbers?

So you can argue all you want how it can “make the game better”. I can already draw up current implementations and see how a dps meter hasn’t made a game any better at all.

thank you and you bring out very good points! I agree with you 100%

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

Nemesis.8593:

…

However without a damage meter i fear we are looking at another 2 years of “meta builds” which work from about 50% less of what they are advertised at via math-in-a-void all… the way to 5% based on the encounter’s mechanics.
…

Essentially this guys.

Unfortunately or fortunately (depending on how you look at it), there will always be a “meta”. A mass amount of people will accept like always, and will doing the normal/expected thing of excluding casuals and whatnot… It’s unavoidable, undeniable, inevitable – get over it.

So, why not have the proper tools to do it right? To actually build a meta on solid data rather than napkin notes. It’s not as harmful as people think. Of course they can make the dps meter just show personal dps, so that dps isn’t the reason someone is kicked (since other’s still can’t see it).

a damage meter is very harmful for the community it will destroy the very fabric of what makes guild war great! Guild war at its current state is a very friendly game. For example I just completely a level 100 fractal after 20 wipes and nobody complained we just kept trying until we succeed! now imagine what a damage meter will do? people will whine complain and boot, it is not the game i want!
plus I think a lot of the fun is not knowing how good your build really is, it is about experimenting and feeling the game and the character!

Couple of things…

The dps meter can be either personal or not-personal (group can see it), it will have different effects. In the event that the group can see your dps, that will be the reason they kick you. In the event that the group can’t see your dps, you will be kicked due to not complying with the “meta” (which WILL exist, regardless of having a meter or not.)

Having a personal dps meter, which will leading to creating a meta based on factual data will lead to better meta builds.

The fact that you wiped 20 times and no one complained, isn’t because a dps meter didn’t exist. It’s because the group allowed it, they weren’t impatient. Perhaps, they didn’t even care for meta builds either.

Having a personal dps meter will lead to no change in community, but will lead to solid meta builds with real numbers as proofs. Since, let me explain it again, since people won’t be able to kick you for dps (since they can’t see it), they will still kick you for not complying to the meta if it’s something they care about (which already happens!). Which again, in your case of wiping 20 times, people perhaps weren’t impatient and maybe didn’t care for the meta…

You’re not afraid of a personal dps meter, you’re afraid of the meta and the people that care too much for it.

---

Hell, it will even help you experiment properly with different builds.

I honestly don’t see any harm from having personal dps meters.

we dont need a dps meter for meta, as I have played many RPG I know all the harm a dps meter can do to a group moral. When I was raid leading in world of warcraft one of the biggest rules is never insult me the raid leader, because as a raid leader I am responsible for group moral. Usually what happens is a tank who thinks he is so valuable to the raid he can say whatever he want and insult anyone he wants, and it usually is a big surprise when I boot his kitten . You see where I am going? if people join raid, get booted, get harassed, get kicked, get insulted, this ripple effect will effect every other part of the game, and over time guild war 2 will become just like wow, and I did not buy guild war 2 because it is like wow, i bought guild war 2 excatly because it is not wow. I also strongly believe the best part of the game is not have a damage meter, this allows me to try different build and to get a feel for different build, that alone is worth the price of admission!

Okay, clearly you’re either not reading or/and or comprehending the things I’ve said.

Thanks for the small argument we had.

i can say the same thing about what u said! you dont seem to understand me clearly either! have you played diablo 3? do you see a damage meter in that game? and does everyone in that game optimize for best build and can everyone run high great rift? i mean very high? you are obviously a noob to mmo!

Yet, meta builds in that game still exist. Groups still don’t take you seriously if you don’t run a certain class and certain build.

Not sure how that’s different or better. It’s the same, and a personal dps meter will not change that.

its fine if a group does not want certain build, see you dont get my point, my point is all about the harm a dps meter will bring to the friendly community which is guild war 2! if you cant see that then you are not very smart!

HOW can a personal dps meter bring more harm.

Personal dps meter meaning, you will only see your own dps, you will not see anyone else.

PLEASE EXPLAIN.

For example before each raid, the raid leader ask each member of the raid to post their best raid dps average on some website or in the chat or through instant messaging! and those who do not qualify are asked to leave immediately!

What?

So the member can’t lie about their numbers? Now, that’s not really an effective way to check, so why would one even check.

Having a dps meter that produces logs that could be uploaded/posted somewhere counter-acts the personal aspect of a personal dps meter. It is also a feature that you’ve made up on the spot, it may not be implemented.

Sure, screen shotting can occur, but it will be more of a hassle of getting that screen shot across to the guy requesting it, and if that guy had set up various means for you to get that screen shot across, that guy would have probably kicked you later down the road for smelling funny (judging by his initial attitude). And of course this would all have to happen relatively fast upon joining a group – else you would join a group and wait 30-40 minutes for everyone to post their screen shots somewhere – Yeah like people will accept that kitten (well, maybe like a very tiny populace will, but, they would be too few). Come up with a simple way of getting a screen shot across for this purpose.

Nemesis personally said most DPS assesments ingame (and around it, in VLOGS and build sites like Metabattle) are false, with people using spike/burst values instead of sustained DPS. A DPS meter is useless as sustained DPS is DPS/time, not only the spikes and not only the base DPS, and even if implemented I fear the majority of players would be unaware of its actual use and ways of interpretation.

Having an actual DPS meter really wouldn’t be nice, It would result in a fixed meta, cause people would all be scared to be kicked, (both the casuals and the elitists) and why?
Because there would be a need for outperforming others….

A DPS meter doesn’t measure:

• fraction of DPS not related to personal play (by booning banners, or buffs),
• heals or reductions of dmg taken keeping people up or
• numer and time spend on resses (will it lower DPS due to dead/downstate, or just stop measuring giving a false number , would ressing lower dps or stop measuring? also ging false values?
• combo’s and comparables
• outgoing conditions, and cleans
• CC’s and or interrupts keeping you or them from getting killed and or adding to DPS?
• DOT or effective DOT
• Average DPS/Time
• Time spend facerubbing the floor
  *
  and thus:
• A value easily interpreted wrong when narrowminded.

Leaving Max-DPS something like MAX speed of a car on a mountainroad to the top of the mountain full of hairpins with oncoming traffic…. You could reach your max speed, but you’ll likely fly of the road, or kill someone else cause you are focussing something else, and in those (and likely other) cases not achieving your goal of reacing the top….

Lastly it will influence people to try and get cheats/hacks/manipulators ingame to manipulate the meters…. whichs will be 3rd party add-ons and will read memory (breaking TOS and geetting themselves kicked/banned/removed from play) mostly added this as I saw someone admitting he was manipulating DPS meters in WoW….

I personally feel people would go as far aas manipulating the game would be very bad, due to the party no longer knowing what and where problems come from, and if actual dmg was manipulated (other then the meter) I’d suggest all 10 being stipped of gains and the offender insteantly losig his account for manipulating gameplay and getting unfair advantages. I also thing a DPS meter would be an incentive for manipulation of the game… Maybe not for me, but for some it would be….

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

Nemesis.8593:

…

However without a damage meter i fear we are looking at another 2 years of “meta builds” which work from about 50% less of what they are advertised at via math-in-a-void all… the way to 5% based on the encounter’s mechanics.
…

Essentially this guys.

Unfortunately or fortunately (depending on how you look at it), there will always be a “meta”. A mass amount of people will accept like always, and will doing the normal/expected thing of excluding casuals and whatnot… It’s unavoidable, undeniable, inevitable – get over it.

So, why not have the proper tools to do it right? To actually build a meta on solid data rather than napkin notes. It’s not as harmful as people think. Of course they can make the dps meter just show personal dps, so that dps isn’t the reason someone is kicked (since other’s still can’t see it).

a damage meter is very harmful for the community it will destroy the very fabric of what makes guild war great! Guild war at its current state is a very friendly game. For example I just completely a level 100 fractal after 20 wipes and nobody complained we just kept trying until we succeed! now imagine what a damage meter will do? people will whine complain and boot, it is not the game i want!
plus I think a lot of the fun is not knowing how good your build really is, it is about experimenting and feeling the game and the character!

Couple of things…

The dps meter can be either personal or not-personal (group can see it), it will have different effects. In the event that the group can see your dps, that will be the reason they kick you. In the event that the group can’t see your dps, you will be kicked due to not complying with the “meta” (which WILL exist, regardless of having a meter or not.)

Having a personal dps meter, which will leading to creating a meta based on factual data will lead to better meta builds.

The fact that you wiped 20 times and no one complained, isn’t because a dps meter didn’t exist. It’s because the group allowed it, they weren’t impatient. Perhaps, they didn’t even care for meta builds either.

Having a personal dps meter will lead to no change in community, but will lead to solid meta builds with real numbers as proofs. Since, let me explain it again, since people won’t be able to kick you for dps (since they can’t see it), they will still kick you for not complying to the meta if it’s something they care about (which already happens!). Which again, in your case of wiping 20 times, people perhaps weren’t impatient and maybe didn’t care for the meta…

You’re not afraid of a personal dps meter, you’re afraid of the meta and the people that care too much for it.

---

Hell, it will even help you experiment properly with different builds.

I honestly don’t see any harm from having personal dps meters.

we dont need a dps meter for meta, as I have played many RPG I know all the harm a dps meter can do to a group moral. When I was raid leading in world of warcraft one of the biggest rules is never insult me the raid leader, because as a raid leader I am responsible for group moral. Usually what happens is a tank who thinks he is so valuable to the raid he can say whatever he want and insult anyone he wants, and it usually is a big surprise when I boot his kitten . You see where I am going? if people join raid, get booted, get harassed, get kicked, get insulted, this ripple effect will effect every other part of the game, and over time guild war 2 will become just like wow, and I did not buy guild war 2 because it is like wow, i bought guild war 2 excatly because it is not wow. I also strongly believe the best part of the game is not have a damage meter, this allows me to try different build and to get a feel for different build, that alone is worth the price of admission!

Okay, clearly you’re either not reading or/and or comprehending the things I’ve said.

Thanks for the small argument we had.

i can say the same thing about what u said! you dont seem to understand me clearly either! have you played diablo 3? do you see a damage meter in that game? and does everyone in that game optimize for best build and can everyone run high great rift? i mean very high? you are obviously a noob to mmo!

Yet, meta builds in that game still exist. Groups still don’t take you seriously if you don’t run a certain class and certain build.

Not sure how that’s different or better. It’s the same, and a personal dps meter will not change that.

its fine if a group does not want certain build, see you dont get my point, my point is all about the harm a dps meter will bring to the friendly community which is guild war 2! if you cant see that then you are not very smart!

HOW can a personal dps meter bring more harm.

Personal dps meter meaning, you will only see your own dps, you will not see anyone else.

PLEASE EXPLAIN.

For example before each raid, the raid leader ask each member of the raid to post their best raid dps average on some website or in the chat or through instant messaging! and those who do not qualify are asked to leave immediately!

What?

So the member can’t lie about their numbers? Now, that’s not really an effective way to check, so why would one even check.

Having a dps meter that produces logs that could be uploaded/posted somewhere counter-acts the personal aspect of a personal dps meter. It is also a feature that you’ve made up on the spot, it may not be implemented.

Sure, screen shotting can occur, but it will be more of a hassle of getting that screen shot across to the guy requesting it, and if that guy had set up various means for you to get that screen shot across, that guy would have probably kicked you later down the road for smelling funny (judging by his initial attitude). And of course this would all have to happen relatively fast upon joining a group – else you would join a group and wait 30-40 minutes for everyone to post their screen shots somewhere – Yeah like people will accept that kitten (well, maybe like a very tiny populace will, but, they would be too few). Come up with a simple way of getting a screen shot across for this purpose.

look I will be ok with a DPS meter as long as it will not be used to boot people, harrass people, intimidate people, and get people kicked out of a raid before they even had a shot at raiding! However, I am afraid that will not happen, because the very nature of a dps meter is elitist and it will cause a lot of grief among-est plaeyrs!

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

Nemesis personally said most DPS assesments ingame (and around it, in VLOGS and build sites like Metabattle) are false, with people using spike/burst values instead of sustained DPS. A DPS meter is useless as sustained DPS is DPS/time, not only the spikes and not only the base DPS, and even if implemented I fear the majority of players would be unaware of its actual use and ways of interpretation.

Having an actual DPS meter really wouldn’t be nice, It would result in a fixed meta, cause people would all be scared to be kicked, (both the casuals and the elitists) and why?
Because there would be a need for outperforming others….

A DPS meter doesn’t measure:

• fraction of DPS not related to personal play (by booning banners, or buffs),
• heals or reductions of dmg taken keeping people up or
• resses (will it lower DPS due to dead/downstate, or just stop measuring giving a false number
• combo’s and comparables
• outgoing conditions, and cleans
• interrupts keeping you or them from getting killed.
• DOT or effective DOT
• Average DPS/Time
  and thus:
• A value easily interpreted wrong when narrowminded.

Leaving DPS something like MAX speed of a car on a mountainroad to the top of the mountain full of hairpins with oncoming traffic…. You could reach your max speed, but you’ll likely fly of the road, or kill someone else cause you are focussing something else, and in those (and likely other) cases not achieving your goal of reacing the top….

Lastly it will influence people to try and get cheats/hacks/manipulators ingame to manipulate the meters…. whichs will be 3rd party add-ons and will read memory (breaking TOS and geetting themselves kicked/banned/removed from play) mostly added this as I saw someone admitting he was manipulating DPS meters in WoW….

I personally feel people would go as far aas manipulating the game would be very bad, due to the party no longer knowing what and where problems come from, and if actual dmg was manipulated (other then the meter) I’d suggest all 10 being stipped of gains and the offender insteantly losig his account for manipulating gameplay and getting unfair advantages. I also thing a DPS meter would be an incentive for manipulation of the game… Maybe not for me, but for some it would be….

WOW, you make such strong points, I didnt even think of all those things! thank you for your imput!

Serophous.9085:

…
People will be paying more attention to their numbers on the meter than what’s in the screen, thus missing when to dodge and just end up dying but “i hit 10k dps!”. Some people are downed and need help back up (note, not the dead dead, downed state), “but if I do that, my dps will suffer!”.

This is why even a personal one can cause problems, as again, focus will be on the meter and not the screen. Looking at it from a macro point of view, its a bad idea.

…
How many instances in a dungeon group in WoW did you have someone linking the dps meter? In other words, their eyes weren’t on the screen, but on the meter. Or how often did you see someone in a raid standing in fire, continuing to dps because numbers?

…

Like the other guy said, idiots will be idiots.

How do you know that someone isn’t texting his best-friend-forever during a fight?

It’s like, saying there will be more car crashes from installing rear-view and side-view mirrors – since some people won’t be able to take their eyes off them. SOME PEOPLE.

Serophous.9085:

I never understand the argument for “how great a DPS meter is”, since we can go to games right now with a DPS meter and see how “wonderful” it is.

And while you can argue that the mighty few will use it properly to find the correct dps build, guess what the majority of players (you know, the ones that either don’t visit the forums at all, or very rarely), will do? Abuse the heck out of it or misuse it, causing more annoyances than needed.

People will be paying more attention to their numbers on the meter than what’s in the screen, thus missing when to dodge and just end up dying but “i hit 10k dps!”. Some people are downed and need help back up (note, not the dead dead, downed state), “but if I do that, my dps will suffer!”.

This is why even a personal one can cause problems, as again, focus will be on the meter and not the screen. Looking at it from a macro point of view, its a bad idea.

We can look at WoW and its Dps meters, and let me ask you this, how balanced are those classes in numbers? They aren’t? But they have so much outsourcing and people showing them the numbers to be adjusted!

How many instances in a dungeon group in WoW did you have someone linking the dps meter? In other words, their eyes weren’t on the screen, but on the meter. Or how often did you see someone in a raid standing in fire, continuing to dps because numbers?

So you can argue all you want how it can “make the game better”. I can already draw up current implementations and see how a dps meter hasn’t made a game any better at all.

We can visually see things like that.
If you run in, pew pew, die to AoE, ignore downed, only auto attacks, face tank…
Then we know if you did something or not, giving us visual feedback, which is already in the game. You will know if someone is inexperienced if they constantly do things that get them ( or others ) killed.

It’s not going to be a secret when Phil or Bob decide to stand somewhere and die. They can’t hide that fact.

It’s not a secret when John runs over to revive Jack, and stops attacking for a moment.

If someone has eyes glued to the numbers, then they have bigger issues to worry about.

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

Nemesis.8593:

…

However without a damage meter i fear we are looking at another 2 years of “meta builds” which work from about 50% less of what they are advertised at via math-in-a-void all… the way to 5% based on the encounter’s mechanics.
…

Essentially this guys.

Unfortunately or fortunately (depending on how you look at it), there will always be a “meta”. A mass amount of people will accept like always, and will doing the normal/expected thing of excluding casuals and whatnot… It’s unavoidable, undeniable, inevitable – get over it.

So, why not have the proper tools to do it right? To actually build a meta on solid data rather than napkin notes. It’s not as harmful as people think. Of course they can make the dps meter just show personal dps, so that dps isn’t the reason someone is kicked (since other’s still can’t see it).

a damage meter is very harmful for the community it will destroy the very fabric of what makes guild war great! Guild war at its current state is a very friendly game. For example I just completely a level 100 fractal after 20 wipes and nobody complained we just kept trying until we succeed! now imagine what a damage meter will do? people will whine complain and boot, it is not the game i want!
plus I think a lot of the fun is not knowing how good your build really is, it is about experimenting and feeling the game and the character!

Couple of things…

The dps meter can be either personal or not-personal (group can see it), it will have different effects. In the event that the group can see your dps, that will be the reason they kick you. In the event that the group can’t see your dps, you will be kicked due to not complying with the “meta” (which WILL exist, regardless of having a meter or not.)

Having a personal dps meter, which will leading to creating a meta based on factual data will lead to better meta builds.

The fact that you wiped 20 times and no one complained, isn’t because a dps meter didn’t exist. It’s because the group allowed it, they weren’t impatient. Perhaps, they didn’t even care for meta builds either.

Having a personal dps meter will lead to no change in community, but will lead to solid meta builds with real numbers as proofs. Since, let me explain it again, since people won’t be able to kick you for dps (since they can’t see it), they will still kick you for not complying to the meta if it’s something they care about (which already happens!). Which again, in your case of wiping 20 times, people perhaps weren’t impatient and maybe didn’t care for the meta…

You’re not afraid of a personal dps meter, you’re afraid of the meta and the people that care too much for it.

---

Hell, it will even help you experiment properly with different builds.

I honestly don’t see any harm from having personal dps meters.

we dont need a dps meter for meta, as I have played many RPG I know all the harm a dps meter can do to a group moral. When I was raid leading in world of warcraft one of the biggest rules is never insult me the raid leader, because as a raid leader I am responsible for group moral. Usually what happens is a tank who thinks he is so valuable to the raid he can say whatever he want and insult anyone he wants, and it usually is a big surprise when I boot his kitten . You see where I am going? if people join raid, get booted, get harassed, get kicked, get insulted, this ripple effect will effect every other part of the game, and over time guild war 2 will become just like wow, and I did not buy guild war 2 because it is like wow, i bought guild war 2 excatly because it is not wow. I also strongly believe the best part of the game is not have a damage meter, this allows me to try different build and to get a feel for different build, that alone is worth the price of admission!

Okay, clearly you’re either not reading or/and or comprehending the things I’ve said.

Thanks for the small argument we had.

i can say the same thing about what u said! you dont seem to understand me clearly either! have you played diablo 3? do you see a damage meter in that game? and does everyone in that game optimize for best build and can everyone run high great rift? i mean very high? you are obviously a noob to mmo!

Yet, meta builds in that game still exist. Groups still don’t take you seriously if you don’t run a certain class and certain build.

Not sure how that’s different or better. It’s the same, and a personal dps meter will not change that.

its fine if a group does not want certain build, see you dont get my point, my point is all about the harm a dps meter will bring to the friendly community which is guild war 2! if you cant see that then you are not very smart!

HOW can a personal dps meter bring more harm.

Personal dps meter meaning, you will only see your own dps, you will not see anyone else.

PLEASE EXPLAIN.

For example before each raid, the raid leader ask each member of the raid to post their best raid dps average on some website or in the chat or through instant messaging! and those who do not qualify are asked to leave immediately!

What?

So the member can’t lie about their numbers? Now, that’s not really an effective way to check, so why would one even check.

Having a dps meter that produces logs that could be uploaded/posted somewhere counter-acts the personal aspect of a personal dps meter. It is also a feature that you’ve made up on the spot, it may not be implemented.

Sure, screen shotting can occur, but it will be more of a hassle of getting that screen shot across to the guy requesting it, and if that guy had set up various means for you to get that screen shot across, that guy would have probably kicked you later down the road for smelling funny (judging by his initial attitude). And of course this would all have to happen relatively fast upon joining a group – else you would join a group and wait 30-40 minutes for everyone to post their screen shots somewhere – Yeah like people will accept that kitten (well, maybe like a very tiny populace will, but, they would be too few). Come up with a simple way of getting a screen shot across for this purpose.

look I will be ok with a DPS meter as long as it will not be used to boot people, harrass people, intimidate people, and get people kicked out of a raid before they even had a shot at raiding! However, I am afraid that will not happen, because the very nature of a dps meter is elitist and it will cause a lot of grief among-est plaeyrs!

The very nature nature of a dps meter is being a tool.

Like a ruler.

Zero Day.2594:

Serophous.9085:

…
People will be paying more attention to their numbers on the meter than what’s in the screen, thus missing when to dodge and just end up dying but “i hit 10k dps!”. Some people are downed and need help back up (note, not the dead dead, downed state), “but if I do that, my dps will suffer!”.

This is why even a personal one can cause problems, as again, focus will be on the meter and not the screen. Looking at it from a macro point of view, its a bad idea.

…
How many instances in a dungeon group in WoW did you have someone linking the dps meter? In other words, their eyes weren’t on the screen, but on the meter. Or how often did you see someone in a raid standing in fire, continuing to dps because numbers?

…

Like the other guy said, idiots will be idiots.

How do you know that someone isn’t texting his best-friend-forever during a fight?

It’s like, saying there will be more car crashes from installing rear-view and side-view mirrors – since some people won’t be able to take their eyes off them. SOME PEOPLE.

because there are many things a rare view mirrior just like a dps meter cant measure.
quote from paxthegreatone
A DPS meter doesn’t measure:
fraction of DPS not related to personal play (by booning banners, or buffs),
heals or reductions of dmg taken keeping people up or
resses (will it lower DPS due to dead/downstate, or just stop measuring giving a false number
combo’s and comparables
outgoing conditions, and cleans
interrupts keeping you or them from getting killed.
DOT or effective DOT
Average DPS/Time
and thus:
A value easily interpreted wrong when narrowminded

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

Nemesis personally said most DPS assesments ingame (and around it, in VLOGS and build sites like Metabattle) are false, with people using spike/burst values instead of sustained DPS. A DPS meter is useless as sustained DPS is DPS/time, not only the spikes and not only the base DPS, and even if implemented I fear the majority of players would be unaware of its actual use and ways of interpretation.

Having an actual DPS meter really wouldn’t be nice, It would result in a fixed meta, cause people would all be scared to be kicked, (both the casuals and the elitists) and why?
Because there would be a need for outperforming others….

A DPS meter doesn’t measure:

• fraction of DPS not related to personal play (by booning banners, or buffs),
• heals or reductions of dmg taken keeping people up or
• numer and time spend on resses (will it lower DPS due to dead/downstate, or just stop measuring giving a false number , would ressing lower dps or stop measuring? also ging false values?
• combo’s and comparables
• outgoing conditions, and cleans
• CC’s and or interrupts keeping you or them from getting killed and or adding to DPS?
• DOT or effective DOT
• Average DPS/Time
• Time spend facerubbing the floor
  *
  and thus:
• A value easily interpreted wrong when narrowminded.

Leaving DPS something like MAX speed of a car on a mountainroad to the top of the mountain full of hairpins with oncoming traffic…. You could reach your max speed, but you’ll likely fly of the road, or kill someone else cause you are focussing something else, and in those (and likely other) cases not achieving your goal of reacing the top….

Lastly it will influence people to try and get cheats/hacks/manipulators ingame to manipulate the meters…. whichs will be 3rd party add-ons and will read memory (breaking TOS and geetting themselves kicked/banned/removed from play) mostly added this as I saw someone admitting he was manipulating DPS meters in WoW….

I personally feel people would go as far aas manipulating the game would be very bad, due to the party no longer knowing what and where problems come from, and if actual dmg was manipulated (other then the meter) I’d suggest all 10 being stipped of gains and the offender insteantly losig his account for manipulating gameplay and getting unfair advantages. I also thing a DPS meter would be an incentive for manipulation of the game… Maybe not for me, but for some it would be….

And to add on, while the small minority of people will understand what the dps meter doesn’t measure, the majority will not, leading to all the problems.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

A DPS meter doesn’t measure:

• fraction of DPS not related to personal play (by booning banners, or buffs),
• heals or reductions of dmg taken keeping people up or
• numer and time spend on resses (will it lower DPS due to dead/downstate, or just stop measuring giving a false number , would ressing lower dps or stop measuring? also ging false values?
• combo’s and comparables
• outgoing conditions, and cleans
• CC’s and or interrupts keeping you or them from getting killed and or adding to DPS?
• DOT or effective DOT
• Average DPS/Time
• Time spend facerubbing the floor
  *
  and thus:
• A value easily interpreted wrong when narrowminded.

Uh, it’s been awhile since I played WoW and thus used a dps meter, but Recount (the most popular dps meter when I was playing) told you all of this stuff.

It’s literally your combat log aggregated into an easy to read format. I was the heal lead for my guild’s raids back then so I was generally more interested in the non-dps parts like conditions removed, activity, healing done (and to whom), HPS, deaths, mana recovered, etc.

A DPS meter is far more than the name implies.

A very simple solution to the meter is to add a bigger and better meter.

One that tracks everything, like the PvP panel at the end of a match, detailing damage, boons, conditions, boon strips, Condi cleanse, Condi damage, revives, healing, interrupts,

Then, add a reset button and a menu that allows you to see those numbers, but not in real time. Maybe 10 seconds out of combat, so idiots will avoid staring at it while pressing 1.

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

Nemesis.8593:

…

However without a damage meter i fear we are looking at another 2 years of “meta builds” which work from about 50% less of what they are advertised at via math-in-a-void all… the way to 5% based on the encounter’s mechanics.
…

Essentially this guys.

Unfortunately or fortunately (depending on how you look at it), there will always be a “meta”. A mass amount of people will accept like always, and will doing the normal/expected thing of excluding casuals and whatnot… It’s unavoidable, undeniable, inevitable – get over it.

So, why not have the proper tools to do it right? To actually build a meta on solid data rather than napkin notes. It’s not as harmful as people think. Of course they can make the dps meter just show personal dps, so that dps isn’t the reason someone is kicked (since other’s still can’t see it).

a damage meter is very harmful for the community it will destroy the very fabric of what makes guild war great! Guild war at its current state is a very friendly game. For example I just completely a level 100 fractal after 20 wipes and nobody complained we just kept trying until we succeed! now imagine what a damage meter will do? people will whine complain and boot, it is not the game i want!
plus I think a lot of the fun is not knowing how good your build really is, it is about experimenting and feeling the game and the character!

Couple of things…

The dps meter can be either personal or not-personal (group can see it), it will have different effects. In the event that the group can see your dps, that will be the reason they kick you. In the event that the group can’t see your dps, you will be kicked due to not complying with the “meta” (which WILL exist, regardless of having a meter or not.)

Having a personal dps meter, which will leading to creating a meta based on factual data will lead to better meta builds.

The fact that you wiped 20 times and no one complained, isn’t because a dps meter didn’t exist. It’s because the group allowed it, they weren’t impatient. Perhaps, they didn’t even care for meta builds either.

Having a personal dps meter will lead to no change in community, but will lead to solid meta builds with real numbers as proofs. Since, let me explain it again, since people won’t be able to kick you for dps (since they can’t see it), they will still kick you for not complying to the meta if it’s something they care about (which already happens!). Which again, in your case of wiping 20 times, people perhaps weren’t impatient and maybe didn’t care for the meta…

You’re not afraid of a personal dps meter, you’re afraid of the meta and the people that care too much for it.

---

Hell, it will even help you experiment properly with different builds.

I honestly don’t see any harm from having personal dps meters.

we dont need a dps meter for meta, as I have played many RPG I know all the harm a dps meter can do to a group moral. When I was raid leading in world of warcraft one of the biggest rules is never insult me the raid leader, because as a raid leader I am responsible for group moral. Usually what happens is a tank who thinks he is so valuable to the raid he can say whatever he want and insult anyone he wants, and it usually is a big surprise when I boot his kitten . You see where I am going? if people join raid, get booted, get harassed, get kicked, get insulted, this ripple effect will effect every other part of the game, and over time guild war 2 will become just like wow, and I did not buy guild war 2 because it is like wow, i bought guild war 2 excatly because it is not wow. I also strongly believe the best part of the game is not have a damage meter, this allows me to try different build and to get a feel for different build, that alone is worth the price of admission!

Okay, clearly you’re either not reading or/and or comprehending the things I’ve said.

Thanks for the small argument we had.

i can say the same thing about what u said! you dont seem to understand me clearly either! have you played diablo 3? do you see a damage meter in that game? and does everyone in that game optimize for best build and can everyone run high great rift? i mean very high? you are obviously a noob to mmo!

Yet, meta builds in that game still exist. Groups still don’t take you seriously if you don’t run a certain class and certain build.

Not sure how that’s different or better. It’s the same, and a personal dps meter will not change that.

its fine if a group does not want certain build, see you dont get my point, my point is all about the harm a dps meter will bring to the friendly community which is guild war 2! if you cant see that then you are not very smart!

HOW can a personal dps meter bring more harm.

Personal dps meter meaning, you will only see your own dps, you will not see anyone else.

PLEASE EXPLAIN.

For example before each raid, the raid leader ask each member of the raid to post their best raid dps average on some website or in the chat or through instant messaging! and those who do not qualify are asked to leave immediately!

What?

So the member can’t lie about their numbers? Now, that’s not really an effective way to check, so why would one even check.

Having a dps meter that produces logs that could be uploaded/posted somewhere counter-acts the personal aspect of a personal dps meter. It is also a feature that you’ve made up on the spot, it may not be implemented.

Sure, screen shotting can occur, but it will be more of a hassle of getting that screen shot across to the guy requesting it, and if that guy had set up various means for you to get that screen shot across, that guy would have probably kicked you later down the road for smelling funny (judging by his initial attitude). And of course this would all have to happen relatively fast upon joining a group – else you would join a group and wait 30-40 minutes for everyone to post their screen shots somewhere – Yeah like people will accept that kitten (well, maybe like a very tiny populace will, but, they would be too few). Come up with a simple way of getting a screen shot across for this purpose.

look I will be ok with a DPS meter as long as it will not be used to boot people, harrass people, intimidate people, and get people kicked out of a raid before they even had a shot at raiding! However, I am afraid that will not happen, because the very nature of a dps meter is elitist and it will cause a lot of grief among-est plaeyrs!

The very nature nature of a dps meter is being a tool.

Like a ruler.

You mean that tool that people use to hit each other with as well? In essence, using a tool not for its intended purposes?

Which again, you can argue the minority will use the tool properly, the majority will be the people abusing it.

Serophous.9085:

And to add on, while the small minority of people will understand what the dps meter doesn’t measure, the majority will not, leading to all the problems.

Majority, minority, who knows. They would be the same people who think they’re pulling 15k dps in all situations despite what the numbers popping up on their screen are saying, because somebody came up with that number in a spreadsheet.

Dumb people are dumb, though I would argue it’s harder to be that dumb when you have your actual DPS up on the screen.

OnionXI.6735:

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

A DPS meter doesn’t measure:

• fraction of DPS not related to personal play (by booning banners, or buffs),
• heals or reductions of dmg taken keeping people up or
• numer and time spend on resses (will it lower DPS due to dead/downstate, or just stop measuring giving a false number , would ressing lower dps or stop measuring? also ging false values?
• combo’s and comparables
• outgoing conditions, and cleans
• CC’s and or interrupts keeping you or them from getting killed and or adding to DPS?
• DOT or effective DOT
• Average DPS/Time
• Time spend facerubbing the floor
  *
  and thus:
• A value easily interpreted wrong when narrowminded.

Uh, it’s been awhile since I played WoW and thus used a dps meter, but Recount (the most popular dps meter when I was playing) told you all of this stuff.

It’s literally your combat log aggregated into an easy to read format. I was the heal lead for my guild’s raids back then so I was generally more interested in the non-dps parts like conditions removed, activity, healing done (and to whom), HPS, mana recovered, deaths, mana recovered, etc.

A DPS meter is far more than the name implies.

And the only people to ever look at those other numbers were the raid leaders. In fact, Recount gave you the option to turn off all those other gathering tools and focus just on dps because the creator knew the majority wouldnt care about them.

OnionXI.6735:

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

A DPS meter doesn’t measure:

• fraction of DPS not related to personal play (by booning banners, or buffs),
• heals or reductions of dmg taken keeping people up or
• numer and time spend on resses (will it lower DPS due to dead/downstate, or just stop measuring giving a false number , would ressing lower dps or stop measuring? also ging false values?
• combo’s and comparables
• outgoing conditions, and cleans
• CC’s and or interrupts keeping you or them from getting killed and or adding to DPS?
• DOT or effective DOT
• Average DPS/Time
• Time spend facerubbing the floor
  *
  and thus:
• A value easily interpreted wrong when narrowminded.

Uh, it’s been awhile since I played WoW and thus used a dps meter, but Recount (the most popular dps meter when I was playing) told you all of this stuff.

It’s literally your combat log aggregated into an easy to read format. I was the heal lead for my guild’s raids back then so I was generally more interested in the non-dps parts like conditions removed, activity, healing done (and to whom), HPS, mana recovered, deaths, mana recovered, etc.

A DPS meter is far more than the name implies.

Yeah most of the guys arguing against meters don’t actually understand what they are or how they’re used. I mean this guy just said that a DPS meter doesn’t measure DPS. What do you think it does? Meters in wow give you all of the things you just said they don’t minus the DPS increase caused by supportive buffs but it shows outgoing buffs and their uptime along with a ton of other useful information.

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

because there are many things a rare view mirrior just like a dps meter cant measure.
quote from paxthegreatone
A DPS meter doesn’t measure:
fraction of DPS not related to personal play (by booning banners, or buffs),
heals or reductions of dmg taken keeping people up or
resses (will it lower DPS due to dead/downstate, or just stop measuring giving a false number
combo’s and comparables
outgoing conditions, and cleans
interrupts keeping you or them from getting killed.
DOT or effective DOT
Average DPS/Time
and thus:
A value easily interpreted wrong when narrowminded

Yes when narrow minded.

“fraction of DPS not related to personal play (by booning banners, or buffs),”
- Hmm my dps was 21k with that warrior, without that warrior it’s at 15k… I wonder…

“heals or reductions of dmg taken keeping people up or”
- DPS meters often include a heal meter as well.

“resses (will it lower DPS due to dead/downstate, or just stop measuring giving a false number”
- Get your kitten in order, Ress’ing someone > personal DPS. Since once the person is ress’ed you as a group will produce more DPS than you not ress’ing him and continuing to DPS. BUT if you can’t understand that, or when that’s appropriate to do, it’s on you.

“combo’s and comparables”
- Hmm I did 21k with that warrior putting down a fire field, but now that warrior isn’t putting down a fire field… I wonder…

“outgoing conditions, and cleans”
- What? you’re saying the DPS meter won’t keep track of conditions? As for the cleans, that was never part of the judgment even in WoW. If damage was to be scarficed in order to keep the group alive, so be it. Hell in WoW it was a whole dedicated role that didn’t do (significant) damage.

“interrupts keeping you or them from getting killed.”
- Like wise, WoW had mechanics where you need to press a button or something to not cause a wipe, it was accepted that people would do that – and of course the dps numbers would be lower.

“DOT or effective DOT”
- Conditions again? Pretty sure it, if implemented properly can keep track of that. Damage over time in general – isn’t that what a dps meter is? Damage per second – or Damage per time unit.

“Average DPS/Time”
- What? Again, once you have the real damage number, you can slice and dice it anyway you like. Damage over seconds, Damage over 10 minutes, damage over 10 years. Average damage of 10 fights… You just need to know the numbers, which the damage meter can provide, given how it’s implemented.

And at the end of it all, with a personal dps meter – only you will see it and only you will be judging yourself if you will/want to.

Serophous.9085:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

Nemesis.8593:

…

However without a damage meter i fear we are looking at another 2 years of “meta builds” which work from about 50% less of what they are advertised at via math-in-a-void all… the way to 5% based on the encounter’s mechanics.
…

Essentially this guys.

Unfortunately or fortunately (depending on how you look at it), there will always be a “meta”. A mass amount of people will accept like always, and will doing the normal/expected thing of excluding casuals and whatnot… It’s unavoidable, undeniable, inevitable – get over it.

So, why not have the proper tools to do it right? To actually build a meta on solid data rather than napkin notes. It’s not as harmful as people think. Of course they can make the dps meter just show personal dps, so that dps isn’t the reason someone is kicked (since other’s still can’t see it).

a damage meter is very harmful for the community it will destroy the very fabric of what makes guild war great! Guild war at its current state is a very friendly game. For example I just completely a level 100 fractal after 20 wipes and nobody complained we just kept trying until we succeed! now imagine what a damage meter will do? people will whine complain and boot, it is not the game i want!
plus I think a lot of the fun is not knowing how good your build really is, it is about experimenting and feeling the game and the character!

Couple of things…

The dps meter can be either personal or not-personal (group can see it), it will have different effects. In the event that the group can see your dps, that will be the reason they kick you. In the event that the group can’t see your dps, you will be kicked due to not complying with the “meta” (which WILL exist, regardless of having a meter or not.)

Having a personal dps meter, which will leading to creating a meta based on factual data will lead to better meta builds.

The fact that you wiped 20 times and no one complained, isn’t because a dps meter didn’t exist. It’s because the group allowed it, they weren’t impatient. Perhaps, they didn’t even care for meta builds either.

Having a personal dps meter will lead to no change in community, but will lead to solid meta builds with real numbers as proofs. Since, let me explain it again, since people won’t be able to kick you for dps (since they can’t see it), they will still kick you for not complying to the meta if it’s something they care about (which already happens!). Which again, in your case of wiping 20 times, people perhaps weren’t impatient and maybe didn’t care for the meta…

You’re not afraid of a personal dps meter, you’re afraid of the meta and the people that care too much for it.

---

Hell, it will even help you experiment properly with different builds.

I honestly don’t see any harm from having personal dps meters.

we dont need a dps meter for meta, as I have played many RPG I know all the harm a dps meter can do to a group moral. When I was raid leading in world of warcraft one of the biggest rules is never insult me the raid leader, because as a raid leader I am responsible for group moral. Usually what happens is a tank who thinks he is so valuable to the raid he can say whatever he want and insult anyone he wants, and it usually is a big surprise when I boot his kitten . You see where I am going? if people join raid, get booted, get harassed, get kicked, get insulted, this ripple effect will effect every other part of the game, and over time guild war 2 will become just like wow, and I did not buy guild war 2 because it is like wow, i bought guild war 2 excatly because it is not wow. I also strongly believe the best part of the game is not have a damage meter, this allows me to try different build and to get a feel for different build, that alone is worth the price of admission!

Okay, clearly you’re either not reading or/and or comprehending the things I’ve said.

Thanks for the small argument we had.

i can say the same thing about what u said! you dont seem to understand me clearly either! have you played diablo 3? do you see a damage meter in that game? and does everyone in that game optimize for best build and can everyone run high great rift? i mean very high? you are obviously a noob to mmo!

Yet, meta builds in that game still exist. Groups still don’t take you seriously if you don’t run a certain class and certain build.

Not sure how that’s different or better. It’s the same, and a personal dps meter will not change that.

its fine if a group does not want certain build, see you dont get my point, my point is all about the harm a dps meter will bring to the friendly community which is guild war 2! if you cant see that then you are not very smart!

HOW can a personal dps meter bring more harm.

Personal dps meter meaning, you will only see your own dps, you will not see anyone else.

PLEASE EXPLAIN.

For example before each raid, the raid leader ask each member of the raid to post their best raid dps average on some website or in the chat or through instant messaging! and those who do not qualify are asked to leave immediately!

What?

So the member can’t lie about their numbers? Now, that’s not really an effective way to check, so why would one even check.

Having a dps meter that produces logs that could be uploaded/posted somewhere counter-acts the personal aspect of a personal dps meter. It is also a feature that you’ve made up on the spot, it may not be implemented.

Sure, screen shotting can occur, but it will be more of a hassle of getting that screen shot across to the guy requesting it, and if that guy had set up various means for you to get that screen shot across, that guy would have probably kicked you later down the road for smelling funny (judging by his initial attitude). And of course this would all have to happen relatively fast upon joining a group – else you would join a group and wait 30-40 minutes for everyone to post their screen shots somewhere – Yeah like people will accept that kitten (well, maybe like a very tiny populace will, but, they would be too few). Come up with a simple way of getting a screen shot across for this purpose.

look I will be ok with a DPS meter as long as it will not be used to boot people, harrass people, intimidate people, and get people kicked out of a raid before they even had a shot at raiding! However, I am afraid that will not happen, because the very nature of a dps meter is elitist and it will cause a lot of grief among-est plaeyrs!

The very nature nature of a dps meter is being a tool.

Like a ruler.

You mean that tool that people use to hit each other with as well? In essence, using a tool not for its intended purposes?

Which again, you can argue the minority will use the tool properly, the majority will be the people abusing it.

Misuse of a tool comes from the user, not the tool so much. How the minority or majority use the tool, does not effect the essence of the tool.

OnionXI.6735:

Serophous.9085:

And to add on, while the small minority of people will understand what the dps meter doesn’t measure, the majority will not, leading to all the problems.

Majority, minority, who knows. They would be the same people who think they’re pulling 15k dps in all situations despite what the numbers popping up on their screen are saying, because somebody came up with that number in a spreadsheet.

Dumb people are dumb, though I would argue it’s harder to be that dumb when you have your actual DPS up on the screen.

No, there is no “who knows”. We already do know. We can already look at WoW and see the impact of the dps meter. We can already enter into the game and I can bet you go into a pug group, someone will link their dps meter at the end of a dungeon or raid boss, and not care about what the healers did, or buffs, or anything and just focus on damage.

Zero Day.2594:

Serophous.9085:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

Nemesis.8593:

…

However without a damage meter i fear we are looking at another 2 years of “meta builds” which work from about 50% less of what they are advertised at via math-in-a-void all… the way to 5% based on the encounter’s mechanics.
…

Essentially this guys.

Unfortunately or fortunately (depending on how you look at it), there will always be a “meta”. A mass amount of people will accept like always, and will doing the normal/expected thing of excluding casuals and whatnot… It’s unavoidable, undeniable, inevitable – get over it.

So, why not have the proper tools to do it right? To actually build a meta on solid data rather than napkin notes. It’s not as harmful as people think. Of course they can make the dps meter just show personal dps, so that dps isn’t the reason someone is kicked (since other’s still can’t see it).

a damage meter is very harmful for the community it will destroy the very fabric of what makes guild war great! Guild war at its current state is a very friendly game. For example I just completely a level 100 fractal after 20 wipes and nobody complained we just kept trying until we succeed! now imagine what a damage meter will do? people will whine complain and boot, it is not the game i want!
plus I think a lot of the fun is not knowing how good your build really is, it is about experimenting and feeling the game and the character!

Couple of things…

The dps meter can be either personal or not-personal (group can see it), it will have different effects. In the event that the group can see your dps, that will be the reason they kick you. In the event that the group can’t see your dps, you will be kicked due to not complying with the “meta” (which WILL exist, regardless of having a meter or not.)

Having a personal dps meter, which will leading to creating a meta based on factual data will lead to better meta builds.

The fact that you wiped 20 times and no one complained, isn’t because a dps meter didn’t exist. It’s because the group allowed it, they weren’t impatient. Perhaps, they didn’t even care for meta builds either.

Having a personal dps meter will lead to no change in community, but will lead to solid meta builds with real numbers as proofs. Since, let me explain it again, since people won’t be able to kick you for dps (since they can’t see it), they will still kick you for not complying to the meta if it’s something they care about (which already happens!). Which again, in your case of wiping 20 times, people perhaps weren’t impatient and maybe didn’t care for the meta…

You’re not afraid of a personal dps meter, you’re afraid of the meta and the people that care too much for it.

---

Hell, it will even help you experiment properly with different builds.

I honestly don’t see any harm from having personal dps meters.

we dont need a dps meter for meta, as I have played many RPG I know all the harm a dps meter can do to a group moral. When I was raid leading in world of warcraft one of the biggest rules is never insult me the raid leader, because as a raid leader I am responsible for group moral. Usually what happens is a tank who thinks he is so valuable to the raid he can say whatever he want and insult anyone he wants, and it usually is a big surprise when I boot his kitten . You see where I am going? if people join raid, get booted, get harassed, get kicked, get insulted, this ripple effect will effect every other part of the game, and over time guild war 2 will become just like wow, and I did not buy guild war 2 because it is like wow, i bought guild war 2 excatly because it is not wow. I also strongly believe the best part of the game is not have a damage meter, this allows me to try different build and to get a feel for different build, that alone is worth the price of admission!

Okay, clearly you’re either not reading or/and or comprehending the things I’ve said.

Thanks for the small argument we had.

i can say the same thing about what u said! you dont seem to understand me clearly either! have you played diablo 3? do you see a damage meter in that game? and does everyone in that game optimize for best build and can everyone run high great rift? i mean very high? you are obviously a noob to mmo!

Yet, meta builds in that game still exist. Groups still don’t take you seriously if you don’t run a certain class and certain build.

Not sure how that’s different or better. It’s the same, and a personal dps meter will not change that.

its fine if a group does not want certain build, see you dont get my point, my point is all about the harm a dps meter will bring to the friendly community which is guild war 2! if you cant see that then you are not very smart!

HOW can a personal dps meter bring more harm.

Personal dps meter meaning, you will only see your own dps, you will not see anyone else.

PLEASE EXPLAIN.

For example before each raid, the raid leader ask each member of the raid to post their best raid dps average on some website or in the chat or through instant messaging! and those who do not qualify are asked to leave immediately!

What?

So the member can’t lie about their numbers? Now, that’s not really an effective way to check, so why would one even check.

Having a dps meter that produces logs that could be uploaded/posted somewhere counter-acts the personal aspect of a personal dps meter. It is also a feature that you’ve made up on the spot, it may not be implemented.

Sure, screen shotting can occur, but it will be more of a hassle of getting that screen shot across to the guy requesting it, and if that guy had set up various means for you to get that screen shot across, that guy would have probably kicked you later down the road for smelling funny (judging by his initial attitude). And of course this would all have to happen relatively fast upon joining a group – else you would join a group and wait 30-40 minutes for everyone to post their screen shots somewhere – Yeah like people will accept that kitten (well, maybe like a very tiny populace will, but, they would be too few). Come up with a simple way of getting a screen shot across for this purpose.

look I will be ok with a DPS meter as long as it will not be used to boot people, harrass people, intimidate people, and get people kicked out of a raid before they even had a shot at raiding! However, I am afraid that will not happen, because the very nature of a dps meter is elitist and it will cause a lot of grief among-est plaeyrs!

The very nature nature of a dps meter is being a tool.

Like a ruler.

You mean that tool that people use to hit each other with as well? In essence, using a tool not for its intended purposes?

Which again, you can argue the minority will use the tool properly, the majority will be the people abusing it.

Misuse of a tool comes from the user, not the tool so much. How the minority or majority use the tool, does not effect the essence of the tool.

True, it doesnt. But seeing a majority of people slapping each other with the ruler isn’t going to create a safe environment now is it?

Again, you’re thinking on the minority level where the very few will use this tool correctly, and the majority will abuse it. I’m not sure how I can make this anymore clear on thinking from a micro and macro level of impact.

A micro level, yes, I totally agree to give it to the people who know how to properly use it and understand what the meter would tell you.

On a macro level, there is no benefit at all to the tool other than to just add strife. Yeah, stupid people do stupid things. Watch two stupid people do something stupid by standing in fire. Now give them each a ruler and watch them hit each other with it while still in the fire. How did this get any better?

Serophous.9085:

Yeah, stupid people do stupid things. Watch two stupid people do something stupid by standing in fire. Now give them each a ruler and watch them hit each other with it while still in the fire. How did this get any better?

They’re already standing in the fire being stupid. You give them rulers it changes nothing. Meanwhile the people who know how to use rulers get them and can use them effectively.

If you have a problem with people being bad specifically because a DPS meter simply exists why are you playing with those people?

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

the other part is about maintaining a friendly atmosphere where everyone can learn and excel at the game together!

Yes and not having the main tool which allows you to analyze how you can improve somehow makes sense there.

The main way I improved in WoW was looking at DPS logs of better players and spending a lot of time practicing on target dummies and comparing different things with meters.

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

because there are many things a rare view mirrior just like a dps meter cant measure.
quote from paxthegreatone
A DPS meter doesn’t measure:
fraction of DPS not related to personal play (by booning banners, or buffs),
heals or reductions of dmg taken keeping people up or
resses (will it lower DPS due to dead/downstate, or just stop measuring giving a false number
combo’s and comparables
outgoing conditions, and cleans
interrupts keeping you or them from getting killed.
DOT or effective DOT
Average DPS/Time
and thus:
A value easily interpreted wrong when narrowminded

Yes when narrow minded.

“fraction of DPS not related to personal play (by booning banners, or buffs),”
- Hmm my dps was 21k with that warrior, without that warrior it’s at 15k… I wonder…

yes this one is easy but was it the warrior, or was it another player with a firefield, or the revenant, or influence of an elementalist, mesmer, or ranger??

“heals or reductions of dmg taken keeping people up or”
- DPS meters often include a heal meter as well.

And how would you interpret the heal contributing to dps? secondly casting the heal will lower DPS, the fact people receive it (or not) due to persoanl movement could influence values a lot.

“resses (will it lower DPS due to dead/downstate, or just stop measuring giving a false number”
- Get your kitten in order, Ress’ing someone > personal DPS. Since once the person is ress’ed you as a group will produce more DPS than you not ress’ing him and continuing to DPS. BUT if you can’t understand that, or when that’s appropriate to do, it’s on you.

Yes when facerubbing the ground you do not do any dmg, but the speed of ressing (warrior vs others/runes of mercy and so on) could give a big change in DPS uptime and effectiveness…

“combo’s and comparables”
- Hmm I did 21k with that warrior putting down a fire field, but now that warrior isn’t putting down a fire field… I wonder…

luckily you forget water/blast (heals), toxic/blast (weakness), light/blast retaliation, fire/whirl (burning stacks), chaosarmor, firearmor and so on… combo’s are more then just might, yes might will give more DPS, you you haave any idea’s how much damage a firewhirl does when executed well? or when you have fast attacks on you firearmor

“outgoing conditions, and cleans”
- What? you’re saying the DPS meter won’t keep track of conditions? As for the cleans, that was never part of the judgment even in WoW. If damage was to be scarficed in order to keep the group alive, so be it. Hell in WoW it was a whole dedicated role that didn’t do (significant) damage.

conditions could be nice but DOT/DPS through conditions could be very influentual
weakness, vulnerability blind will help your party, but sometimes will not add to damage at all. Even though they might have been influential to your party.

“interrupts keeping you or them from getting killed.”
- Like wise, WoW had mechanics where you need to press a button or something to not cause a wipe, it was accepted that people would do that – and of course the dps numbers would be lower.

Well interupts and the ability to break a breakbar are said to be very important, certain builds do not have much ability for breaking the bar, or only a limited amount…

“DOT or effective DOT”
- Conditions again? Pretty sure it, if implemented properly can keep track of that. Damage over time in general – isn’t that what a dps meter is? Damage per second – or Damage per time unit.

Well DOT is nice, stacking 15 burning and seeing 8k might be nice but if it only ticks 1 or 2 times the effect could be insignificant, either due to low uptime or fast cleansing, also the average duration could be nice and the % interupted/removed

“Average DPS/Time”
- What? Again, once you have the real damage number, you can slice and dice it anyway you like. Damage over seconds, Damage over 10 minutes, damage over 10 years. Average damage of 10 fights… You just need to know the numbers, which the damage meter can provide, given how it’s implemented.

DPS/s = burst spike, DPS/ period = average DPS per segment (during broken bars/or under x conditions/boons (if you can see it, preferably in graph), DPS/engagement overal combined DPS witout indvidual numers…..jut ask all values and you could work our dps/person… if the raid leader would combine this you could get actual values and/or untrue values… only requirement would be the actual hp estimate of the boss…

And at the end of it all, with a personal dps meter – only you will see it and only you will be judging yourself if you will/want to.

And if you would give this value to others your % effectiveness could be calculated, without any relevant other figures… also if you did say 8 or 9% of needed dps in a 10 ppl group would you be willing to tell, would you when you got 12 or 15%?

Understand if 4 ppl brag they did 60% together the other 6 would have been doing 6.667% on average, maybe some did actually do 10% then the values of the remaining players would drop even more….

Just having the numbers will mean some will use it to brag… also showing others are more likely NOT on the positive side….

Mallis.4295:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

the other part is about maintaining a friendly atmosphere where everyone can learn and excel at the game together!

Yes and not having the main tool which allows you to analyze how you can improve somehow makes sense there.

The main way I improved in WoW was looking at DPS logs of better players and spending a lot of time practicing on target dummies and comparing different things with meters.

this is not wow and if you like wow so much go back to that game! cause I am never going back to wow!

Lorath.2504:

Damage meters just make everyone unhappy. The elitists whining about newbies and casuals, newbies and casuals whining about being kicked, players in general whining about their favorite class being low on dps, devs whining about actually having to balance things…

lol this. Looking at you wow.

ps: dont forget the dps whinning about pure dps classes being out dps’ed by hybrid classes. And dps and tanks whining about when tank specs out dps dps specs. Fun times.

Zero Day.2594:

Like the other guy said, idiots will be idiots.

How do you know that someone isn’t texting his best-friend-forever during a fight?

It’s like, saying there will be more car crashes from installing rear-view and side-view mirrors – since some people won’t be able to take their eyes off them. SOME PEOPLE.

Put a (drivers) licence you have to pass before entering a raid in your argument and you have a point that cars should have mirrors but not only rely on them. Most states don´t just allow you to pilot a car without testing, and it´s not necessarily reflex testing but also environmental awareness. I don´t know about you, but I was advised to actually look over my shoulder when changing lanes instead of using the mirror all of the time. So a mirror is a tool that is not mandatory to use, but a DpS O meter surely would be used that way. Don´t have a mirror? Sorr,y no car driving for you.

Damage meter would create more elitism. Guild Wars 2 was made catering to the casual gamers. That’s why we have horizontal progression, the players that look better have spent more gold/money/time getting that gear.

When I played wow their were always bosses made to difficult to block content and give devs the time to create more content. Then the boss gets nerfed and every guild beats it. I remember in Wow their was a boss so hard that it required a guild stacking necros to beat it. I do not want guilds to exclude classes because of dps/healing.

Ulion.5476:

Damage meter would create more elitism. Guild Wars 2 was made catering to the casual gamers. That’s why we have horizontal progression, the players that look better have spent more gold/money/time getting that gear.

When I played wow their were always bosses made to difficult to block content and give devs the time to create more content. Then the boss gets nerfed and every guild beats it. I remember in Wow their was a boss so hard that it required a guild stacking necros to beat it. I do not want guilds to exclude classes because of dps/healing.

Elitism already exists in Guild Wars 2, worse then in games that have a damage meter because a few people decided to create metas based on math calculations.

Those math calculations are false in all accounts and they do not take into consideration the mechanics of the encounter…

The math showed the sinister engineer does 20K DPS and a zerker necromancer does 14K DPS without timewarp. In reality however the sinister engineer does about 10-12K, and the necromancer does 6-14K based on the encounter (if boss has perma prot & other anti-power invulnerabilities).

Based on these “facts”, the majority of the community used “the meta” for nearly 2 years, completely excluding necromancers and rangers… and playing full zerk melee even in places where the mechanics of the encounters were lowering their max DPS potential by about 80% to literally 2K DPS.

All condition, tank and healer builds were frowned upon.

I have never seen any other MMO, in over 15 years… where 2 classes are so aggressively excluded from the so called “meta”… that i personally received hundreds of PMs/emails with people telling me that they just got kicked at “hello”.

Guild Wars 2 already has a more elitist community then most other MMOs due to the fact an unknown % of the community look up to the “math-in-a-void” for guidance, and like i said… the math gives out insane DPS number differences between classes because it does not take into consideration the mechanics of the encounters which balance these numbers out.

HoT is out… Alacrity just took the complexity of the combat system up to the next level… math calculations will be 2 times worse then before.

When people fail raids they will turn towards math calculations once again… it will be total chaos.

All i am asking is for a personal damage meter, so that people see that the math never resembles reality… that their REAL DPS values are actually all over the place depending on the encounter, and that sometimes they do far more DPS with a lot less effort if they would be playing a condition build… vs targets with perma prot, stealth or blink… sometimes accepting a tank build will actually make their DPS look higher because they had more DPS uptime, and so on…

They can draw all these conclusions for themselves and in time form a correct opinion… and most importantly stop wrongfully excluding builds and classes from the so called “meta”.

Like i’ve always said, the only thing worse then elitism is delusional elitism.

Nemesis.8593:

All i am asking is for a personal damage meter, so that people see that the math never resembles reality… that their REAL DPSs are actually all over the place depending on the encounter, and that sometimes they do far more DPS with a lot less effort if they would be playing a condition build… vs targets with perma prot, stealth or blink… sometimes accepting a tank build will actually make their DPS look higher because they had more DPS uptime.

Or at least don’t ban people for using 3rd party parsers that read from memory. Jaxnx is really kitten in practicality.

Nemesis.8593:

Ulion.5476:

Damage meter would create more elitism. Guild Wars 2 was made catering to the casual gamers. That’s why we have horizontal progression, the players that look better have spent more gold/money/time getting that gear.

When I played wow their were always bosses made to difficult to block content and give devs the time to create more content. Then the boss gets nerfed and every guild beats it. I remember in Wow their was a boss so hard that it required a guild stacking necros to beat it. I do not want guilds to exclude classes because of dps/healing.

Elitism already exists in Guild Wars 2, worse then in games that have a damage meter because a few people decided to create metas based on math calculations.

Those math calculations are false in all accounts and they do not take into consideration the mechanics of the encounter…

The math showed the sinister engineer does 20K DPS and a zerker necromancer does 14K DPS without timewarp. In reality however the sinister engineer does about 10-12K, and the necromancer does 6-14K based on the encounter (depending if the boss has perma prot & other anti-power invulnerabilities or not).

Based on these facts the majority of the community used “the meta” for nearly 2 years, completely excluding necromancers and rangers… and playing full zerk melee even in places where the mechanics of the encounters were lowering their max DPS by about 80% to literally 2K.
All condition, tank and healer builds were frowned upon.

I have never seen in any other MMO, in 15 years… for 2 classes to be excluded to such an extend that i personally received hundreds of PMs/emails with people telling me that they just got kicked.

Guild Wars 2 already has a more elitists community then most other MMOs due to the fact an unknown % of the community look up to the “math-in-a-void” for guidance, and like i said… the math gives out insane DPS number differences between classes because it does not take into consideration the mechanics of the encounters which balance these numbers out.

HoT is out… Alacrity just took the complexity of the combat system to the next level… math calculations will be 2 times worse then before.

When people fail raids they will turn towards math calculations once again… it will be total chaos.

All i am asking is for a personal damage meter, so that people see that the math never resembles reality… that their REAL DPSs are actually all over the place depending on the encounter, and that sometimes they do far more DPS with a lot less effort if they would be playing a condition build… vs targets with perma prot, stealth or blink… sometimes accepting a tank build will actually make their DPS look higher because they had more DPS uptime.

They can draw all these conclusions for themselves and in time form a correct opinion… and most importantly stop wrongfully excluding builds and classes from the so called “meta”.

if you think guild war 2 already have a more elitist community then any other mmo then you are delusional! Ok maybe for pvp it is true, but we are not talking about pvp and I am not a pvp player. For PVE rangers and necro are fine I see them at high level fractal all time. Man did you forget to take your medication?
personal damage meter is not ok! it will create elitism, people will start demanding your logs for everything, fractals, pve open world content, raids, dungeons! I am completely against that!

The thing about being an elitist in this game is that it is hard to do. You have to demand people ping gear, research all the specific classes to know what they do. then demand people run those specific builds. As to whether the player you are with is doing this, you have to take their word for it. In fact, most players probably won’t show up and deal with your nonsense. Because of this, there is a fairly heavy barrier that prevents players from being anal-retentive about everything.

Things like a DPS meter make it easy. You just look at the meter, and then if you don’t feel that someone is high enough, kick them. You don’t even have to know a lot about the game. Just glance at the meter, kick. Because it is so simple and easy, the amount of players who will start kicking will grow exponentially. Making it “personal” won’t help, either. Players will just demand you copy/paste the number. Don’t do it fast enough, kick

We’re not getting a DPS meter. The reason why is because DPS meters exist to discriminate. Anet doesn’t want you to discriminate against gear, classes, or even playstyle. Anet doesn’t want you doing DPS cals to find a perfect rotation. Most players are perfectly happy without a DPS meter, and Anet isn’t going to add one into the game just so a few people can satisfy their curiosity.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

The thing about being an elitist in this game is that it is hard to do. You have to demand people ping gear, research all the specific classes to know what they do. then demand people run those specific builds. As to whether the player you are with is doing this, you have to take their word for it. In fact, most players probably won’t show up and deal with your nonsense. Because of this, there is a fairly heavy barrier that prevents players from being anal-retentive about everything.

Things like a DPS meter make it easy. You just look at the meter, and then if you don’t feel that someone is high enough, kick them. You don’t even have to know a lot about the game. Just glance at the meter, kick. Because it is so simple and easy, the amount of players who will start kicking will grow exponentially. Making it “personal” won’t help, either. Players will just demand you copy/paste the number. Don’t do it fast enough, kick

We’re not getting a DPS meter. The reason why is because DPS meters exist to discriminate. Anet doesn’t want you to discriminate against gear, classes, or even playstyle. Anet doesn’t want you doing DPS cals to find a perfect rotation. Most players are perfectly happy without a DPS meter, and Anet isn’t going to add one into the game just so a few people can satisfy their curiosity.

i hope they dont add a dps meter but if this kitten op keeps insisting I dont know, maybe arenanet will just give in! and next thing you know guild war 2 becomes the most elitist game ever! But then I will just quite and go play another game!

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

if you think guild war 2 already have a more elitist community then any other mmo then you are delusional! Ok maybe for pvp it is true, but we are not talking about pvp and I am not a pvp player. For PVE rangers and necro are fine I see them at high level fractal all time. Man did you forget to take your medication?

It’s very true. In WoW people get excluded based on bad play or not meeting their requirements which isn’t elitist just practical. You have really bad logs and try to get into a group checking logs? You haven’t killed the boss before and try to join a group checking achievements? You step on a mine and kill your whole raid? You do really bad DPS? Get kicked.

In GW2 it’s very different. You get kicked just based on your class because people assume that you’re going to do lower DPS because of some spreadsheet math that no one has actually seen and there are no damage logs to show that even though your class has a lower DPS ceiling you can pull top numbers and do much better than those bad condi engi players.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

We’re not getting a DPS meter. The reason why is because DPS meters exist to discriminate. Anet doesn’t want you to discriminate against gear, classes, or even playstyle. Anet doesn’t want you doing DPS cals to find a perfect rotation. Most players are perfectly happy without a DPS meter, and Anet isn’t going to add one into the game just so a few people can satisfy their curiosity.

Increasing the count of stupid posts are we? DPS meters are a tool used to analyze DPS. People “discriminate” based on them in scenarios where it makes sense to do so. If I spend an hour wiping to an enrage timer on a boss I don’t want that guy consistently doing 70% of the DPS of the second lowest DPS player in the group. You say anet doesn’t want us doing DPS calcs for perfect rotations which is fine for open world or dungeons or even fractals. When it comes to raids which are meant to be very challenging and have hard enrage timers for DPS checks having a way to optimize DPS is essential.

Mallis.4295:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

if you think guild war 2 already have a more elitist community then any other mmo then you are delusional! Ok maybe for pvp it is true, but we are not talking about pvp and I am not a pvp player. For PVE rangers and necro are fine I see them at high level fractal all time. Man did you forget to take your medication?

It’s very true. In WoW people get excluded based on bad play or not meeting their requirements which isn’t elitist just practical. You have really bad logs and try to get into a group checking logs? You haven’t killed the boss before and try to join a group checking achievements? You step on a mine and kill your whole raid? You do really bad DPS? Get kicked.

In GW2 it’s very different. You get kicked just based on your class because people assume that you’re going to do lower DPS because of some spreadsheet math that no one has actually seen and there are no damage logs to show that even though your class has a lower DPS ceiling you can pull top numbers and do much better than those bad condi engi players.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

We’re not getting a DPS meter. The reason why is because DPS meters exist to discriminate. Anet doesn’t want you to discriminate against gear, classes, or even playstyle. Anet doesn’t want you doing DPS cals to find a perfect rotation. Most players are perfectly happy without a DPS meter, and Anet isn’t going to add one into the game just so a few people can satisfy their curiosity.

Increasing the count of stupid posts are we? DPS meters are a tool used to analyze DPS. People “discriminate” based on them in scenarios where it makes sense to do so. If I spend an hour wiping to an enrage timer on a boss I don’t want that guy consistently doing 70% of the DPS of the second lowest DPS player in the group. You say anet doesn’t want us doing DPS calcs for perfect rotations which is fine for open world or dungeons or even fractals. When it comes to raids which are meant to be very challenging and have hard enrage timers for DPS checks having a way to optimize DPS is essential.

well if the raid is that challenging then I hope they nerf it to an acceptable level! Because I really dont want to see exclusive content for the very few! I did not purchase this game just to be left out of some of the best content and I am sure 90% of the guild war 2 player base will find that unacceptable too!

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

well if the raid is that challenging then I hope they nerf it to an acceptable level! Because I really dont want to see exclusive content for the very few! I did not purchase this game just to be left out of some of the best content and I am sure 90% of the guild war 2 player base will find that unacceptable too!

Yeah how about no. Instead of Anet bringing the difficulty of content down to your level how about you try to actually improve so you can complete it. It’s not “exclusive content for the very few” it’s content accessible to anyone with HoT. You just have to actually put in some time and effort like everything else in the game that can’t be straight up bought with real cash.

tl;dr – git gud

Mallis.4295:

Increasing the count of stupid posts are we? DPS meters are a tool used to analyze DPS.

The only thing DPS is used for is discrimination. Picking one weapon over another, picking one gear prefix over another, picking one class over another. People will be using the DPS meters to discriminate against others constantly, regardless of the environment. The “need” to optimize DPS is wrong, because we already have a way of optimizing DPS: run GC gear and all damage traits/utilities. End of optimization. Anet didn’t build the raids to discriminate against classes, so any comp could do it.

Your example is poorly written, doesn’t make sense, and isn’t contradictory to what I’ve said in any way.

Mallis.4295:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

well if the raid is that challenging then I hope they nerf it to an acceptable level! Because I really dont want to see exclusive content for the very few! I did not purchase this game just to be left out of some of the best content and I am sure 90% of the guild war 2 player base will find that unacceptable too!

Yeah how about no. Instead of Anet bringing the difficulty of content down to your level how about you try to actually improve so you can complete it. It’s not “exclusive content for the very few” it’s content accessible to anyone with HoT. You just have to actually put in some time and effort like everything else in the game that can’t be straight up bought with real cash.

tl;dr – git gud

why do you assume I am not good enough for the new content? And no if it is too difficult for 90% of the people then it must be nerfed, I dont want this game to turn into wow, because as soon as it does thats when I quit!

Agreed. No damage meter, ever, personal or public. The effects it has on a game have already been shown (WoW) and if they add one to this game, I quit. Instantly and without hesitation.

DavidGX.7240:

Agreed. No damage meter, ever, personal or public. The effects it has on a game have already been shown (WoW) and if they add one to this game, I quit. Instantly and without hesitation.

i second that, I will just go play fallout 4, heck there are so many single player rpgs I am giving up so I can spend time playing guild war 2!

Man the stupidity is overwhelming. I’m done here. If you want a response you can look to my previous posts where I have already replied to the same things you keep saying over and over.

Mallis.4295:

Man the stupidity is overwhelming. I’m done here. If you want a response you can look to my previous posts where I have already replied to the same things you keep saying over and over.

and you are a genius!