Guild Wars 2

TooBz.3065:

DeathPanel.8362:

TooBz.3065:

DeathPanel.8362:

silvermember.8941:

stof.9341:

Red Falcon.8257:

they probably also partecipated guild missions

Not really. And even if he was ikittenerg guild, how will a level 20 player participate in a guild mission that sends him into Frostgorge Sound or Fireheart Rise ?

Edit: wth, since when is the three letters N A and Z censored and for what reason? XD

The question is WHY would a level 20 character be concern about Level 80 gear?

BTW I don’t agree with ARenanet stance on forcing players to join guilds to get gear, I wish the was another method to get rings, because I certainly WONT ever ever join a guild. Guilds change the way, I play games and I don’t want to be bound by anybody other than myself. And I wish I could craft them even if they require a lot of work or reasonable work.

For the 50th time, you are NOT forced to join guilds to get those items because you have the option to get those SAME items from the laurel vendor for laurels/ectos.

Sure, but there is certainly a STRONG incentive to do so. For each piece of ascended gear there is one way of getting it that is much more efficient than the alternative methods.

You have no evidence to suggest that it’s more efficient to do it via the guild route.

Even if that is the case, the fact stands that you have an alternate way to obtain these items which means you aren’t “forced to join guilds to obtain these gear”.

Which I acknowledge first by saying “sure.” I’m not in a large guild, so I can’t speak to how hard it is to complete the guild missions. I know (from the wiki) that you can earn 2 guild commendations / type / week -> so up to 10 / week. But even if it’s 2 per week, you can get an earring in 42 days for 5 gold.

Running dailies it will take 45 days + 12g in ectos.

That’s if you show up for every single guild event on time and succeed. Far harder than simply just doing dailies which you can choose to finish on your own time.

Dailies are easy to achieve tasks that a time gated in order to incentive user’s to log in every day.

That sounds like mafia wars to me.

critickitten.1498:

Yes, on all counts. Grind is repetition.

It’s never a question of “is there grind or not” because there is always grind in everything you do. What matters is how meaningful the grind feels to you, and whether or not you feel adequately rewarded in exchange for that grind.

Which is why I said that their promise was a bad one to make. There’s no way they can make a zero grind game. Which is something I specifically pointed out.

However, that should not stop them from trying to reduce the existing grind in GW2, which is clearly not what they’re doing. In fact, they’re only introducing even more content that is even more difficult to grind for. Ergo, yes, this is a violation of that “promise” to provide a game with no grind. Yeah, it was a dumb promise to make, but they made it to reassure players that November would never happen again, and now they’re breaking it. It’s their own fault if they’re being called out on it.

Well see if you believe that but then you call them on it your kind of being a hypocrite. See the idea is that they are not making a grind game but you call it a grind game but your wrong. To call things like once a day only events as a grind is simply untrue therefor they are not doing wrong with what they are saying.
I am saying your problem IS that you see every actively as a grind you kind of proved my point.

I don’t mind the dailies, but I rather have them stick with a consistent cost for them. All the trinkets should cost 30 laurels each.

DeathPanel.8362:

Wrong, that’s exactly the correct term to describe someone who wants something without even putting in minimal effort.

I already stated it only takes 30-40 minutes every day to complete your dailies in order to get the item you want.

If you don’t even want to put that much time into the game yet you still want the item then you are lazy.

I’m not lazy, I just don’t want to do boring things. 30-40 minutes every day it 24h of doing boring stuff to get one earring (assuming the ectos come for free during that period).

I’m sorry that you cannot recognize busywork when it hits you up the head but I do. Those dailies are boring stuff time gated to make you not notice there’s nothing interesting left to do in the game.

You only need to kill one target not finish the guild quest to get the tokens.

DeathPanel.8362:

TooBz.3065:

DeathPanel.8362:

TooBz.3065:

DeathPanel.8362:

silvermember.8941:

stof.9341:

Red Falcon.8257:

they probably also partecipated guild missions

Not really. And even if he was ikittenerg guild, how will a level 20 player participate in a guild mission that sends him into Frostgorge Sound or Fireheart Rise ?

Edit: wth, since when is the three letters N A and Z censored and for what reason? XD

The question is WHY would a level 20 character be concern about Level 80 gear?

BTW I don’t agree with ARenanet stance on forcing players to join guilds to get gear, I wish the was another method to get rings, because I certainly WONT ever ever join a guild. Guilds change the way, I play games and I don’t want to be bound by anybody other than myself. And I wish I could craft them even if they require a lot of work or reasonable work.

For the 50th time, you are NOT forced to join guilds to get those items because you have the option to get those SAME items from the laurel vendor for laurels/ectos.

Sure, but there is certainly a STRONG incentive to do so. For each piece of ascended gear there is one way of getting it that is much more efficient than the alternative methods.

You have no evidence to suggest that it’s more efficient to do it via the guild route.

Even if that is the case, the fact stands that you have an alternate way to obtain these items which means you aren’t “forced to join guilds to obtain these gear”.

Which I acknowledge first by saying “sure.” I’m not in a large guild, so I can’t speak to how hard it is to complete the guild missions. I know (from the wiki) that you can earn 2 guild commendations / type / week -> so up to 10 / week. But even if it’s 2 per week, you can get an earring in 42 days for 5 gold.

Running dailies it will take 45 days + 12g in ectos.

That’s if you show up for every single guild event on time and succeed. Far harder than simply just doing dailies which you can choose to finish on your own time.

DeathPanel.8362:

TooBz.3065:

DeathPanel.8362:

Astralporing.1957:

DeathPanel.8362:

Astralporing.1957:

DeathPanel.8362:

Unless you take years to do that there’s no chance that will happen.

Ah, but we are talking about years for casuals.

If you can’t even muster the 30-40 minutes on average daily to do your daily then this game is not for you. That’s the bottom line.

Yes, this game is not for casuals (the people that are a significant majority of players here, by the way). That’s what i have been saying from the very beginning. Thank you for agreeing.

There’s a difference between casual players and lazy players.

Lazy is not a good term to use here. Lazy means to be disinclined to activity or exertion. Just because someone doesn’t do dailies doesn’t make them lazy. Also it’s a pejorative that you are using because you don’t have an argument.

Wrong, that’s exactly the correct term to describe someone who wants something without even putting in minimal effort.

I already stated it only takes 30-40 minutes every day to complete your dailies in order to get the item you want.

If you don’t even want to put that much time into the game yet you still want the item then you are lazy.

I´m sorry but i think you don´t understand the real problem here.

We DON´T want for easy content (ascended earings in this case) we want for NO GATED content.
Right now 2 earings (aside for guild missions) requieres 80 laurel (60 daily and 2 monthlys, if i play all days). Like you said dailys and mothlys are extremely easy (based on skill, no on time), so we need 2 months of very easy activities to get 2 ascended.
Why we can´t get this items for, just for example, 2000 dungeons tokens? o 2000 fractals relics? I hope you agree with me that way are much harder than dailys (again, based on skill no on time). Is simple, this kind of method isn´t gated. We just want for this.

lol? a month here a month there and you have an amulet. you also will get full ascended gear witch is another month here and there, and then you have 8 characters.

so there is years of content to look forward to:P

im loosing interest in this game fast which looked almost impossible only 2 weeks ago. only reason is what some of you call “time gating” with quote as if its not really there.

common guys, no one can claim that this game isn’t becoming a “to do list”. it disgusts me personally. if you enjoy it hf:)

ExaDal.2017:

DeathPanel.8362:

TooBz.3065:

DeathPanel.8362:

Astralporing.1957:

DeathPanel.8362:

Astralporing.1957:

DeathPanel.8362:

Unless you take years to do that there’s no chance that will happen.

Ah, but we are talking about years for casuals.

If you can’t even muster the 30-40 minutes on average daily to do your daily then this game is not for you. That’s the bottom line.

Yes, this game is not for casuals (the people that are a significant majority of players here, by the way). That’s what i have been saying from the very beginning. Thank you for agreeing.

There’s a difference between casual players and lazy players.

Lazy is not a good term to use here. Lazy means to be disinclined to activity or exertion. Just because someone doesn’t do dailies doesn’t make them lazy. Also it’s a pejorative that you are using because you don’t have an argument.

Wrong, that’s exactly the correct term to describe someone who wants something without even putting in minimal effort.

I already stated it only takes 30-40 minutes every day to complete your dailies in order to get the item you want.

If you don’t even want to put that much time into the game yet you still want the item then you are lazy.

I´m sorry but i think you don´t understand the real problem here.

We DON´T want for easy content (ascended earings in this case) we want for NO GATED content.
Right now 2 earings (aside for guild missions) requieres 80 laurel (60 daily and 2 monthlys, if i play all days). Like you said dailys and mothlys are extremely easy (based on skill, no on time), so we need 2 months of very easy activities to get 2 ascended.
Why we can´t get this items for, just for example, 2000 dungeons tokens? o 2000 fractals relics? I hope you agree with me that way are much harder than dailys (again, based on skill no on time). Is simple, this kind of method isn´t gated. We just want for this.

If you don’t see why your latter suggestion doesn’t work, you haven’t been around these forums long enough.

Does this sound familiar?:

“This isn’t fair for people who don’t run fractals!” (Rings)
“This isn’t fair for people who don’t like the ____ dungeon!” (People who want Arah gear, but only want to do CoF)
“This isn’t fair for people who don’t do guild missions!” (Accessories)
“This isn’t fair for people who don’t play the TP!” (Market)
“This isn’t fair for people who have lag issues!” (Moving JPs)

Your proposed solution isn’t a solution. It just shifts the complaints to a different group of people.

To this end, the Ascended accessories are available through a specific, content based method (Guild Missions), and also available through a generic, generalized method (laurels). This is indeed the simplest and fairest way to do it.

The second you try to expand it to fractals or dungeons or whatnot, you will see the same hilariously long trail of tears on this forum. Which brings me to this: To be honest, I agree with the previous statement that this is a problem with laziness, and beyond that, entitlement. Most (by which I just mean the denizens of this forum. Most of the game population is OK) seem to think that they deserve the equipment, but don’t really want to do what is necessary to acquire it.

Actually, when Anet said they were adding new ways to get ascended gear, I kind of expected them to add new ways to get the existing gear (rings and backpieces). Not to add new nearly exclusive ways to get the next part.

Put all ascended trinkets in the fractals, put them all in the dungeons, and in WvW, and in craft, and in the laurel vendor. And now in the guild commendation vendor too.

This is a general problem with ascended gear. They need to make them more available, PERIOD. Whether through the fractal vendor, or through karma, or whatever, they need to be more accessible.

Laurels are terribly prohibitive. If you have many characters, the idea of gearing them all is a complete nightmare.

LFk.1408:

ExaDal.2017:

DeathPanel.8362:

TooBz.3065:

DeathPanel.8362:

Astralporing.1957:

DeathPanel.8362:

Astralporing.1957:

DeathPanel.8362:

Unless you take years to do that there’s no chance that will happen.

Ah, but we are talking about years for casuals.

If you can’t even muster the 30-40 minutes on average daily to do your daily then this game is not for you. That’s the bottom line.

Yes, this game is not for casuals (the people that are a significant majority of players here, by the way). That’s what i have been saying from the very beginning. Thank you for agreeing.

There’s a difference between casual players and lazy players.

Lazy is not a good term to use here. Lazy means to be disinclined to activity or exertion. Just because someone doesn’t do dailies doesn’t make them lazy. Also it’s a pejorative that you are using because you don’t have an argument.

Wrong, that’s exactly the correct term to describe someone who wants something without even putting in minimal effort.

I already stated it only takes 30-40 minutes every day to complete your dailies in order to get the item you want.

If you don’t even want to put that much time into the game yet you still want the item then you are lazy.

I´m sorry but i think you don´t understand the real problem here.

We DON´T want for easy content (ascended earings in this case) we want for NO GATED content.
Right now 2 earings (aside for guild missions) requieres 80 laurel (60 daily and 2 monthlys, if i play all days). Like you said dailys and mothlys are extremely easy (based on skill, no on time), so we need 2 months of very easy activities to get 2 ascended.
Why we can´t get this items for, just for example, 2000 dungeons tokens? o 2000 fractals relics? I hope you agree with me that way are much harder than dailys (again, based on skill no on time). Is simple, this kind of method isn´t gated. We just want for this.

If you don’t see why your latter suggestion doesn’t work, you haven’t been around these forums long enough.

Does this sound familiar?:

“This isn’t fair for people who don’t run fractals!” (Rings)
“This isn’t fair for people who don’t like the ____ dungeon!” (People who want Arah gear, but only want to do CoF)
“This isn’t fair for people who don’t do guild missions!” (Accessories)
“This isn’t fair for people who don’t play the TP!” (Market)
“This isn’t fair for people who have lag issues!” (Moving JPs)

Your proposed solution isn’t a solution. It just shifts the complaints to a different group of people.

To this end, the Ascended accessories are available through a specific, content based method (Guild Missions), and also available through a generic, generalized method (laurels). This is indeed the simplest and fairest way to do it.

The second you try to expand it to fractals or dungeons or whatnot, you will see the same hilariously long trail of tears on this forum. Which brings me to this: To be honest, I agree with the previous statement that this is a problem with laziness, and beyond that, entitlement. Most (by which I just mean the denizens of this forum. Most of the game population is OK) seem to think that they deserve the equipment, but don’t really want to do what is necessary to acquire it.

1) I´m in the forums from the first day when the game is released and i see the qq.
2) My post is a part of the solution. I think laurles are a good way to obtain ascended earing. My problem is the lack of others ways to obtain it (aside Guild mission thats just a joke). Why we can´t obtain this through Fotm too?. The ascended ring are a good example, you can get one from drop, tokens or laurels. So, you have a way according to you playstyle.

ANET just listen hardore players. Players who consume the new content in days, so they need to inclued content that can not be consumed rapidly (in a wrong way, because guild mission are easy for hardcore players). And, at the end, the only prejudiced is the casual player.

stof.9341:

Actually, when Anet said they were adding new ways to get ascended gear, I kind of expected them to add new ways to get the existing gear (rings and backpieces). Not to add new nearly exclusive ways to get the next part.

Put all ascended trinkets in the fractals, put them all in the dungeons, and in WvW, and in craft, and in the laurel vendor. And now in the guild commendation vendor too.

This. Is really simple.

Asia Skyly.7198:

This is a general problem with ascended gear. They need to make them more available, PERIOD. Whether through the fractal vendor, or through karma, or whatever, they need to be more accessible.

Laurels are terribly prohibitive. If you have many characters, the idea of gearing them all is a complete nightmare.

I definitely agree with this. In practice it may be difficult to balance so that one method isn’t far more efficient than another, causing more complaints about the devs favoring one set of players over another, but the principle is sound.

I think what the devs were originally trying to achieve with the laurel system is to give you a little perk for putting time into the game. Obviously any game company is going to try to find ways to get you to spend more time on their game, but I saw the laurels as a nice side-effect of me logging on to play the game I enjoy, not the main reason to play the game everyday. However, attaching exclusive top-tier gear to it tips the balance away from “nice to have” to “need to have” for a lot of players, which is totally understandable. I wish they had gone with a cosmetic reward instead — if they made some new legendaries and made them cost 485 laurels, I’d be ok with that.

Anyway, to stay true to their “play how you want” motto (which honestly I think they’ve done a surprisingly good job adhering to, mostly), they should make Ascended gear accessible through all avenues of play (i.e. purchasable with all types of currency).

As for the time-gating, I can appreciate your point that, for each additional character you want to gear up, you are forced by the time-gating to wait a full cycle longer; however, I think it’s been shown elsewhere that taking away artificial gating can result in players engaging in counter-productive behavior. WoW used to have a limit of 25 daily quests per day, and when they removed it, a lot of players felt compelled to do every daily in the current tier (which is over 40), resulting in player burn-out. I think this is a pretty good example of giving the players what they want resulting in decreased enjoyment of the game. And, taking in consideration that there are already people who talk about grinding CoF endlessly for gold or grinding fractals until their eyes bleed, I think it’s not a bad thing for devs to be wary of lifting time-gates.

So far, the only complain I have found to be valid in this thread is that there isn’t enough ways to get some of the ascended gear in the game, that it needs more variety.

A solution to that would be to add more ways to get ascended gear.

Arenanet has stated a few months back that they were working on new ways to get ascended gear.

Since that statement was made, the laurels were implemented as one way to get ascended gear.

Since the implementation of laurels, guild missions we’re added as another way to get ascended gear.

I have yet to read anything from Arenanet that even remotely suggest that they are done implementing new ways to get ascended gear.

As such, the only valid complain has already been answered. That answer being that they are still working on new ways to get ascended gear.

Now if you find that they’re being to slow about it, I will remind you that patience is a virtue and that good things come to those who wait.

I’ll also remind you that you’re not paying a dime in subs for the game, and if you don’t want to wait, you can always go play something else for a month or two (something I’ve done from mid october to mid december and that ended up making me enjoy the game even more since late december).

P.S. Get ascended gear.

DeathPanel.8362:

silvermember.8941:

stof.9341:

Red Falcon.8257:

they probably also partecipated guild missions

Not really. And even if he was ikittenerg guild, how will a level 20 player participate in a guild mission that sends him into Frostgorge Sound or Fireheart Rise ?

Edit: wth, since when is the three letters N A and Z censored and for what reason? XD

The question is WHY would a level 20 character be concern about Level 80 gear?

BTW I don’t agree with ARenanet stance on forcing players to join guilds to get gear, I wish the was another method to get rings, because I certainly WONT ever ever join a guild. Guilds change the way, I play games and I don’t want to be bound by anybody other than myself. And I wish I could craft them even if they require a lot of work or reasonable work.

For the 50th time, you are NOT forced to join guilds to get those items because you have the option to get those SAME items from the laurel vendor for laurels/ectos.

I do know that, but it cost me less laurels or time and stuff. I would rather they be other ways to achieve them that doesn’t screw over or at least push you into joining a guild, which is really my problem.

i bought up 100 ectos in preparation the first night i saw them. i just never know if it is going to change (my guess is no change) in price.

they want us to try out the new guild content, so they used high pricing to do it. it’s up front info and choices (guild missions or laurels+ectoplasms), so while i do not agree with the setup for Earrings, compared to waiting for a bunch of guild players to log on and help find NPCs to kill for the bounty, i am more worried about my guild’s performance during the bounty once we get it unlocked.

A select few of my guild doesn’t like carrying the Cliffside Hammer or using the Dredge Buckets. I’d hate to find they don’t like to run around a specific part of the zone to go find the bounty because “they simply do not like the area or it’s foes there”.

TLDR: Laurels and Ectos i hate, but are okay alternative compared to possible PvE issues in current Guild.

LFk.1408:

If you don’t see why your latter suggestion doesn’t work, you haven’t been around these forums long enough.

Does this sound familiar?:

“This isn’t fair for people who don’t run fractals!” (Rings)
“This isn’t fair for people who don’t like the ____ dungeon!” (People who want Arah gear, but only want to do CoF)
“This isn’t fair for people who don’t do guild missions!” (Accessories)
“This isn’t fair for people who don’t play the TP!” (Market)
“This isn’t fair for people who have lag issues!” (Moving JPs)

Your proposed solution isn’t a solution. It just shifts the complaints to a different group of people.

To this end, the Ascended accessories are available through a specific, content based method (Guild Missions), and also available through a generic, generalized method (laurels). This is indeed the simplest and fairest way to do it.

No, the simplest and fairest way to do it is to make them accessible through all and every method that exotic gear was accessible, at comparable price/effort (so, if they’d have half the exotic drop chance, they would also have twice the cost in karma, dungeon tokens, crafting resources etc compared to exotics). No specific method should be visibly preferable, and all should be equally viable approaches.
Not what we have now.

DeathPanel.8362:

It doesn’t take a year kitten troll. If it takes you a year you fail.

Let me see. Amulet 30 laurels, rings 35 each, earrings 40+ 50 ecto each. Total 180 (+100 ecto, just for added fun). That’s nearly five months including monthlies. If you can log in every day for at least half an hour to hour.
Hint, there are lot of people that play only on weekends. That doesn’t mean they are lazy, or fail. Usually it means something exactly opposite.

silvermember.8941:

DeathPanel.8362:

silvermember.8941:

stof.9341:

Red Falcon.8257:

they probably also partecipated guild missions

Not really. And even if he was ikittenerg guild, how will a level 20 player participate in a guild mission that sends him into Frostgorge Sound or Fireheart Rise ?

Edit: wth, since when is the three letters N A and Z censored and for what reason? XD

The question is WHY would a level 20 character be concern about Level 80 gear?

BTW I don’t agree with ARenanet stance on forcing players to join guilds to get gear, I wish the was another method to get rings, because I certainly WONT ever ever join a guild. Guilds change the way, I play games and I don’t want to be bound by anybody other than myself. And I wish I could craft them even if they require a lot of work or reasonable work.

For the 50th time, you are NOT forced to join guilds to get those items because you have the option to get those SAME items from the laurel vendor for laurels/ectos.

I do know that, but it cost me less laurels or time and stuff. I would rather they be other ways to achieve them that doesn’t screw over or at least push you into joining a guild, which is really my problem.

Wrong. It does not push you to joining a guild because you have an alternate way to get the item.

You are simply complaining because the alternate way is not kitten easy. It has nothing to do with guilds. You would be here complaining regardless even if the only way to get it was through laurels and ectos.

DeathPanel.8362:

silvermember.8941:

DeathPanel.8362:

silvermember.8941:

stof.9341:

Red Falcon.8257:

they probably also partecipated guild missions

Not really. And even if he was ikittenerg guild, how will a level 20 player participate in a guild mission that sends him into Frostgorge Sound or Fireheart Rise ?

Edit: wth, since when is the three letters N A and Z censored and for what reason? XD

The question is WHY would a level 20 character be concern about Level 80 gear?

BTW I don’t agree with ARenanet stance on forcing players to join guilds to get gear, I wish the was another method to get rings, because I certainly WONT ever ever join a guild. Guilds change the way, I play games and I don’t want to be bound by anybody other than myself. And I wish I could craft them even if they require a lot of work or reasonable work.

For the 50th time, you are NOT forced to join guilds to get those items because you have the option to get those SAME items from the laurel vendor for laurels/ectos.

I do know that, but it cost me less laurels or time and stuff. I would rather they be other ways to achieve them that doesn’t screw over or at least push you into joining a guild, which is really my problem.

Wrong. It does not push you to joining a guild because you have an alternate way to get the item.

You are simply complaining because the alternate way is not kitten easy. It has nothing to do with guilds. You would be here complaining regardless even if the only way to get it was through laurels and ectos.

You intentionally misinterpret silvermember.
What he/she is arguing is that the cost of attaining ascended earrings is unfair, because it is far lower for people who happen to be in large guilds than it is for people who don’t like to join large guilds. And this is the case, because ArenaNet has admitted that the laurel vendor cost is intentionally higher than the guild commendation vendor cost.

It would be fair if the laurel vendor cost would be on par with guild commendatino vendor cost, so that people in large guilds and people not in large guilds would both need to spend the same amount of effort for the same ascended earrings.
—
So please do not confuse a sense of justice for laziness.
—
And please do not argue that participating in one Guild Mission per week for 12 weeks in a row plus earning 4 more gold is about the same amount of effort as completing your dailies AND monthlies for 2 months in a row plus earning 100 ectoplasm.
—
And also do not argue that being a member of a large guild is hard work. Clicking “represent” once per character and logging in every day (whether you’re actually going to play or not) is not hard work.

earrings are ridiculous over the top item grind.

sorry, but yeah.

game is about gear grind.

white blue green gold ? vendor/salvage trash.
soon; exo too!

onward to the grind !

Astralporing.1957:

Let me see. Amulet 30 laurels, rings 35 each, earrings 40+ 50 ecto each. Total 180 (+100 ecto, just for added fun). That’s nearly five months including monthlies. If you can log in every day for at least half an hour to hour.
Hint, there are lot of people that play only on weekends. That doesn’t mean they are lazy, or fail. Usually it means something exactly opposite.

“Nearly 5 months” != 1 year.

at least give the option to buy them with gems.

it would still suck, but less.
at least i can spend my few time enjoying the game or doing other activities witout feeling rushed “ok gotta finish this quick quick, map chat; any events going on?? any dead people to raise??”

DeathPanel.8362:

Irrelevant. As I’ve already explained progression doesn’t go to infinity, therefore being behind by 60ish laurels doesn’t matter.

Everyone will hit the ceiling in gear obtainable by laurels at a fixed point so being ahead is irrelevant when it comes to “catching up”.

And as I’ve already said, you’re wrong. Progression will continue beyond Ascended. Ascended was stated as the beginning of their “initiative”, and the devs have openly said that they will continue with vertical progression moving forward. Ergo, there is no “end” to the progression curve until they change their minds on that policy. So, simply put, you are incorrect, and the devs have said as much.

Jski.6180:

Well see if you believe that but then you call them on it your kind of being a hypocrite. See the idea is that they are not making a grind game but you call it a grind game but your wrong. To call things like once a day only events as a grind is simply untrue therefor they are not doing wrong with what they are saying.
I am saying your problem IS that you see every actively as a grind you kind of proved my point.

Everything is a grind. I’m not sure why this is confusing for you.

Grind is repetition of content. There is no way that you can claim that performing a certain number of tasks every single day for 30 days is not repetition. Ergo, it is a grind by definition.

Now the grind may not bother you personally (thus why you claim that it isn’t a grind), but by the actual definition of the term, it most certainly is. So let’s stop trying to argue semantics here, because the definition of “grind” in the dictionary and every other major source is quite clear, and it doesn’t agree with your chosen definition.

As I said, they promised a no-grind game. Yes, that was a dumb promise and I do not think it’s fair to say “this is a grind” when it’s virtually impossible to create lasting content without some form of grind.

However, when they claim to be creating a no-grind game, continuing to release new content that actively increases the amount of grinding a player must do in order to achieve the new item? That is 100% against what they promised, and yes, they deserve to be called on that.

It leaves an especially bad taste in my mouth this time around because the devs are quoted as saying that they purposely overpriced the items specifically to encourage players to run guild missions for the new items instead. That’s wrong, and it violates their promise of a game that can be “played the way you want”.

So in summation: Yes, they are breaking promises. And yes, they should be called out on it. I appreciate that you don’t agree, but it’s very clear that what they are doing here doesn’t match up with the promises they’ve made in the past.

DeathPanel.8362:

If you can’t even muster the 30-40 minutes on average daily to do your daily then this game is not for you. That’s the bottom line.

“You don’t play the same way I do, therefore this game is not for you.”

Again, the developers disagree with you. They did claim that this game would allow people to “play the way they want to”.

So, sorry, but your arguments are being dismissed by the developers’ own list of prior comments and promises.

It’s nice to know that our fundamental disagreement hinges on this point, though. You apparently believe that someone who cannot log into the game 30-40 minutes per day is “lazy”. I suppose we’ll have to agree to disagree on that, because I think that’s a ludicrous point of view.

stof.9341:

Actually, when Anet said they were adding new ways to get ascended gear, I kind of expected them to add new ways to get the existing gear (rings and backpieces). Not to add new nearly exclusive ways to get the next part.

Yes I think we all thought that, at least everybody except anet. Funny think is they’ll probably think this is why we don’t announce things early when the fault is entirely on their side for not doing what they promised or for not planning things correctly.

stof.9341:

Put all ascended trinkets in the fractals, put them all in the dungeons, and in WvW, and in craft, and in the laurel vendor. And now in the guild commendation vendor too.

Maybe not dungeons but everything else I agree on, this is what I expected. And they did promise they would be available through WvW.

critickitten.1498:

DeathPanel.8362:

Irrelevant. As I’ve already explained progression doesn’t go to infinity, therefore being behind by 60ish laurels doesn’t matter.

Everyone will hit the ceiling in gear obtainable by laurels at a fixed point so being ahead is irrelevant when it comes to “catching up”.

And as I’ve already said, you’re wrong. Progression will continue beyond Ascended. Ascended was stated as the beginning of their “initiative”, and the devs have openly said that they will continue with vertical progression moving forward. Ergo, there is no “end” to the progression curve until they change their minds on that policy. So, simply put, you are incorrect, and the devs have said as much.

Jski.6180:

Well see if you believe that but then you call them on it your kind of being a hypocrite. See the idea is that they are not making a grind game but you call it a grind game but your wrong. To call things like once a day only events as a grind is simply untrue therefor they are not doing wrong with what they are saying.
I am saying your problem IS that you see every actively as a grind you kind of proved my point.

Everything is a grind. I’m not sure why this is confusing for you.

Grind is repetition of content. There is no way that you can claim that performing a certain number of tasks every single day for 30 days is not repetition. Ergo, it is a grind by definition.

Now the grind may not bother you personally (thus why you claim that it isn’t a grind), but by the actual definition of the term, it most certainly is. So let’s stop trying to argue semantics here, because the definition of “grind” in the dictionary and every other major source is quite clear, and it doesn’t agree with your chosen definition.

As I said, they promised a no-grind game. Yes, that was a dumb promise and I do not think it’s fair to say “this is a grind” when it’s virtually impossible to create lasting content without some form of grind.

However, when they claim to be creating a no-grind game, continuing to release new content that actively increases the amount of grinding a player must do in order to achieve the new item? That is 100% against what they promised, and yes, they deserve to be called on that.

It leaves an especially bad taste in my mouth this time around because the devs are quoted as saying that they purposely overpriced the items specifically to encourage players to run guild missions for the new items instead. That’s wrong, and it violates their promise of a game that can be “played the way you want”.

So in summation: Yes, they are breaking promises. And yes, they should be called out on it. I appreciate that you don’t agree, but it’s very clear that what they are doing here doesn’t match up with the promises they’ve made in the past.

DeathPanel.8362:

If you can’t even muster the 30-40 minutes on average daily to do your daily then this game is not for you. That’s the bottom line.

“You don’t play the same way I do, therefore this game is not for you.”

Again, the developers disagree with you. They did claim that this game would allow people to “play the way they want to”.

So, sorry, but your arguments are being dismissed by the developers’ own list of prior comments and promises.

It’s nice to know that our fundamental disagreement hinges on this point, though. You apparently believe that someone who cannot log into the game 30-40 minutes per day is “lazy”. I suppose we’ll have to agree to disagree on that, because I think that’s a ludicrous point of view.

Just what you posted for me:
I am saying YOU see every thing as a grind so your views are going to always be one way and looking at things in such a way for you to call them out on saying there is no grind is wrong.

Jski.6180:

Just what you posted for me:
I am saying YOU see every thing as a grind so your views are going to always be one way and looking at things in such a way for you to call them out on saying there is no grind is wrong.

Read what you quoted again.

It doesn’t say what you think it says.

critickitten.1498:

However, when they claim to be creating a no-grind game, continuing to release new content that actively increases the amount of grinding a player must do in order to achieve the new item? That is 100% against what they promised, and yes, they deserve to be called on that.

It leaves an especially bad taste in my mouth this time around because the devs are quoted as saying that they purposely overpriced the items specifically to encourage players to run guild missions for the new items instead. That’s wrong, and it violates their promise of a game that can be “played the way you want”.

So in summation: Yes, they are breaking promises. And yes, they should be called out on it. I appreciate that you don’t agree, but it’s very clear that what they are doing here doesn’t match up with the promises they’ve made in the past.

Reposting because I agree 100% with it and its a point that should be emphasised to any devs reading this.

Jornophelanthas.1475:

You intentionally misinterpret silvermember.
What he/she is arguing is that the cost of attaining ascended earrings is unfair, because it is far lower for people who happen to be in large guilds than it is for people who don’t like to join large guilds.

Show me where I misrepresented him?

You have no evidence to support your statements that the cost is “far lower” since you haven’t quantified what the exact costs are and compared them.

anyway it sucks.

i cant do an alt now so i faceroll the maps i havent done with my lvl 80, bascially scrapping nice content, because i need (i feel compeled to) do these dailies to get laurels instead of just enjoying these maps i havent done with an alt.

critickitten.1498:

Jski.6180:

Just what you posted for me:
I am saying YOU see every thing as a grind so your views are going to always be one way and looking at things in such a way for you to call them out on saying there is no grind is wrong.

Read what you quoted again.

It doesn’t say what you think it says.

No its right you seen grind every where so you cant see means of countering it.

Avatar.1923:

anyway it sucks.

i cant do an alt now so i faceroll the maps i havent done with my lvl 80, bascially scrapping nice content, because i need (i feel compeled to) do these dailies to get laurels instead of just enjoying these maps i havent done with an alt.

Why cant you do your daily on an alt? The rewards are not that much less then they are at 80 at least where they count.

As a primarily solo PvEer in a tiny guild, 50 ectos is not too much, and isn’t all that difficult to get. This year I’ve turned about 100 ectos into 40 mystic clovers and I play very casually.

45 laurels is a lot though to someone who only gets them through dailies/monthlies. I would imagine that would be a nightmare to someone who likes to play lots of alts and wants to gear them all up.

DeathPanel.8362:

Jornophelanthas.1475:

You intentionally misinterpret silvermember.
What he/she is arguing is that the cost of attaining ascended earrings is unfair, because it is far lower for people who happen to be in large guilds than it is for people who don’t like to join large guilds.

Show me where I misrepresented him?

You have no evidence to support your statements that the cost is “far lower” since you haven’t quantified what the exact costs are and compared them.

In answer to your question, let me quote myself quoting ArenaNet. (If the post seems familiar to you, it was on page 1 of this thread.) I have added the bolded line for your convenience.

Jornophelanthas.1475:

I’m going to quote Isaiah Cartwright on the cost of ascended accessories:

Isaiah Cartwright.8569:

These items are mainly earned through guild content, we included them on the laurels vendor to give players the opportunity to earn them if they are not in a guild but they are priced high to encourage players to try and accomplish them via the guild content.

source: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Holy-kitten-Cleric-Ascended-Accessory/page/3#post1516124

Further quantification:
Laurel vendor cost for 2 ascended accessories:
2x (40 laurels + 50 ectoplasm) = 80 laurels + 100 ectoplasm
80 laurels are earned through performing 2 monthly achievements + 60 daily achievements.
100 ectoplasm are earned through spending approximately 100 * 35 silver = 35 gold on the trading post, slightly lessened by what you may salvage from yellow items or may still have in stock. Daily rewards do not include ectoplasm or yellow items.

Commendation vendor cost for 2 ascended accessories:
2x (12 guild commendations + 5 gold) = 24 guild commendations + 10 gold
24 guild commendations are earned through performing 12 guild missions in 12 different weeks (each of which awards 2 guild commendations). This time period of 12 weeks can be halved or more if you have access to more than only Guild Bounties.
10 gold is earned partly through those same 12 guild missions (50s per guild mission x 12 guild missions = 6 gold). The remaining 4 gold must be earned in other ways.

There, quantified enough?

Without an agreed definition of “Grind” this whole discussion is moot…

While one may wish to paint any form of repition as a grind, in this context the term stems from that it was technique used to pad game play time stats back in the day where advertising a game had 200hrs of game play was the norm – back when games were on carts that couldn’t be content patched and noone had interenet at home.

The result was gaps in content and encounter requirements that could only be closed by repitious behaviour that served no other purpose than the above padding. GW2 has gone down this path somewhat in some ways, but no means as much as MOST.

I also see that the concept of infinite verticle progression has been snuck in to the discussion, if that little gem of unchallenged speculation is ignored we are back to a handful of people who want rewards with less input… I can’t be too hard on that – greed is human after all!

How players get Ascended items:

Rings: RNG used in FotM; lucky? get them sooner; unlucky…
Bypass RNG, iirc, by doing FotM daily for x days
Alternative Rings: 25 minimum (dailies + monthly) each
Amulets: 20 days minimum (dailies + monthly)
Earrings: 30 days minimum + globs (" + ") OR guild commendations

This design is an attempt by ANet to slow people down. People are using the term time gated. I would say, rather, time required. Of all of the methods available, only someone who gets lucky with RNG, or is part of a large guild and is fortunate enough to be able to participate fully in guild missions gets stuff “sooner.”

This all stems from their reaction to the “Nothing to work toward!” posts that were common in October and even in September. The words used in Linsey Murdock’s blog were, “…much sooner than we expected.” People wanted progression, now we’ve got it. It should not be a surprise that this progression is designed to take time.

It is in ANet’s best interests to keep people playing. They are trying to walk a fine line between giving people the goodies and having them leave because of nothing to do, and making acquisition costly in terms of resources and/or time and having them leave out of frustration.

We are players, and as a collective we will never, ever be patient, or satisfied.

Jornophelanthas.1475:

Commendation vendor cost for 2 ascended accessories:
2x (12 guild commendations + 5 gold) = 24 guild commendations + 10 gold
24 guild commendations are earned through performing 12 guild missions in 12 different weeks (each of which awards 2 guild commendations). This time period of 12 weeks can be halved or more if you have access to more than only Guild Bounties.
10 gold is earned partly through those same 12 guild missions (50s per guild mission x 12 guild missions = 6 gold). The remaining 4 gold must be earned in other ways.

There, quantified enough?

You make a lot of assumptions here.

You assume that the player in question will make it to EACH and every guild mission without fail.

You assume that you earn gold through the mission.

You assume that the guild would have enough INFLUENCE to trigger those missions on the exact intervals.

Those requirement for your comparison to work is far more restrictive than simply doing dailies since you have a 24 hour timeframe every day to do it on your own terms whereas the guild bounties you must be on exactly when the guild is doing it and it must have sufficient influence to trigger them.

There’s also the time spent in actually doing those guild events, which is in itself a cost as well as the influence spent.

At the end of the comparison, your original statement of “far less” is still not substantiated by even your own numbers.

TooBz.3065:

Dailies are easy to achieve tasks that a time gated in order to incentive user’s to log in every day.

That sounds like mafia wars to me.

i wouldn’t mind if it didn’t take 12 months + to get all the stuff i want….

DeathPanel.8362:

You assume that the guild would have enough INFLUENCE to trigger those missions on the exact intervals.

The influence cost to start a bounty is really not a problem. Unlocking them is darn expensive, building one bounty isn’t.

stof.9341:

DeathPanel.8362:

You assume that the guild would have enough INFLUENCE to trigger those missions on the exact intervals.

The influence cost to start a bounty is really not a problem. Unlocking them is darn expensive, building one bounty isn’t.

These are still all costs associated with actions not taken into account by the poster I responded to.

DeathPanel.8362:

These are still all costs associated with actions not taken into account by the poster I responded to.

One bounty costs 200 influence to launch XD That’s 40s if you buy it with money. 40s spread around all the guild members doing it. That’s hardly worth mentioning.

Can you rework their numbers correctly to illustrate the error mate?
Ta.

DeathPanel.8362:

Jornophelanthas.1475:

Commendation vendor cost for 2 ascended accessories:
2x (12 guild commendations + 5 gold) = 24 guild commendations + 10 gold
24 guild commendations are earned through performing 12 guild missions in 12 different weeks (each of which awards 2 guild commendations). This time period of 12 weeks can be halved or more if you have access to more than only Guild Bounties.
10 gold is earned partly through those same 12 guild missions (50s per guild mission x 12 guild missions = 6 gold). The remaining 4 gold must be earned in other ways.

There, quantified enough?

You make a lot of assumptions here.

You assume that the player in question will make it to EACH and every guild mission without fail.

Guilds are free to start a guild mission multiple times during a week. Every participating member can only receive the full reward (with commendations) once per week. It is really not a stretch to assume that a guild can start each mission type 3 or 4 times per week (or even daily) in order to make sure that all their members who want to participate get to participate.

DeathPanel.8362:

You assume that you earn gold through the mission.

The weekly reward for a Guild Bounty is 2 commendations, 50 silver and 2 rare (or better) items. My calculations include the 50 silver that accompany the commendations. I have even left out whatever the rares/exotics/precursors that ALSO accompany the commendations could fetch on the Tradepost.

DeathPanel.8362:

You assume that the guild would have enough INFLUENCE to trigger those missions on the exact intervals.

Ordering a guild mission costs 200 influence. Unless this is a guild that could not afford its MF, Karma and EXP banners (which each cost the same) before the February patch, I highly doubt this is an issue.
If the guild can afford to unlock guild missions for 10,000 influence, it will have the funds to pay 200 influence per week to order a mission. Logging in with 3 different representing characters on my acount every day already earns my guild 210 influence per week. Now imagine that even half the members will do that.

DeathPanel.8362:

Those requirement for your comparison to work is far more restrictive than simply doing dailies since you have a 24 hour timeframe every day to do it on your own terms whereas the guild bounties you must be on exactly when the guild is doing it and it must have sufficient influence to trigger them.

These requirements are very reasonable, as I have shown above. Repeating an argument does not make it stronger.

DeathPanel.8362:

There’s also the time spent in actually doing those guild events, which is in itself a cost as well as the influence spent.

The most common guild missions – guild bounties – are capped at 15 minutes per mission. I have to be very lucky to complete a daily achievement in that same time. Even if you fail a guild mission 6 times before you succeed on the 7th try, completing 7 daily achievements will STILL take longer.

DeathPanel.8362:

At the end of the comparison, your original statement of “far less” is still not substantiated by even your own numbers.

I have refuted your counterarguments (some of which were pathetic), and my point stands.

Now, if everyone will excuse me, I am done feeding the troll.

they take 15mins to do then everybody who was there is done for the week.

good luck to complete them if you re casual or semi casual.

this is for hardcore gamers.

not a complain here, even if id prefer it to be otherwise, i understand the feeding of the hardcores…

Jski.6180:

No its right you seen grind every where so you cant see means of countering it.

No, you’re not right. Go back and read my post again.

This is the absolute last time I will reiterate this, so burn it into your retinas because I won’t repeat myself a fourth time:

I don’t hold it against the staff that the game has “zero grind” because, as I acknowledged, I don’t think it’s possible to get rid of all grind. However, when they are claiming to be pursuing a game that has “zero grind”, creating new content that actually increases the amount of grinding required by players is a blatant violation of the promise they made back in November to pursue a zero-grind game.

Until you start reading my posts, there’s no reason for you to even bother trying to have a debate with me. Because if there’s one thing that infuriates me more than anything else, it’s when someone who is debating with me blatantly lies about what I’ve said in an attempt to spin it for their own gain. Dishonesty is not a respectable quality, and I won’t engage with those who perpetuate it. It’s a waste of my time and theirs.

So is it the cost or the fact they exist? We are blurring lines here.

DeathPanel.8362:

Astralporing.1957:

Let me see. Amulet 30 laurels, rings 35 each, earrings 40+ 50 ecto each. Total 180 (+100 ecto, just for added fun). That’s nearly five months including monthlies. If you can log in every day for at least half an hour to hour.
Hint, there are lot of people that play only on weekends. That doesn’t mean they are lazy, or fail. Usually it means something exactly opposite.

“Nearly 5 months” != 1 year.

I see you didn’t read further. 5 months only if you do every daily and monthly on the way. And, surprise surprise, most people do not play every day.
So, for many, many people it’s going to be a year or more. Even if they play a lot.
For those that play only on weekends…
Also, you missed that my calculation includes only amulet, rings and earrings. There will be 6 armor slots more (7 if they add backpacks, 8 in case of aquabreathers), and weapons. Those are going to push fastest pure laurel acquisition time to over a year, and the average one into multiple years.
Yes, i am sure hardcore players will be able to get those way faster. After all, even now theoretically you can get both earrings in a single day (you can get lucky with guild mission rng rewards, and also commendations seem to be earned separately for each guild, so you can get more if you jump representation between guilds). Yes, there will be people that will get these eq very fast.
Which is exactly the point – the gap between the small minority of top grinders and the rest of the community as a result of high costs and time gating is getting bigger and bigger, instead of decreasing.

thisolderhead.5127:

So is it the cost or the fact they exist? We are blurring lines here.

If they didn’t exist, the cost would not be a problem. If the cost was smaller, the problem would be smaller as well (though it would not just disappear).

@ critickitten.1498
If that what your trying to say then that works for me just hard to see that from your other post.

So to summarise – some people will get things faster than others, and that is difficult for some players to pallet.

Some people will input more and gain a return faster. This seems unfair when looking at two different input streams with the same output, but lets try to bear in mind that as big as the divide between player groups (as per above), is the divide between inputs between those groups.

It seems like some assume that time=reward, we input more into this game than just time (well assuming one is not faceroll grinding watching TV).

thisolderhead.5127:

So to summarise – some people will get things faster than others, and that is difficult for some players to pallet.

Wrong.

There are several problems being expressed, and that has never been one of them. Please listen to what people are saying and don’t distort it to suit your argument.

It seems like some assume that time=reward, we input more into this game than just time (well assuming one is not faceroll grinding watching TV).

Why shouldn’t time = reward?

If a player puts in 10 hours all in one day, and another player puts in 1 hour across ten days, why is the second player getting ten times the reward?

DeathPanel.8362:

silvermember.8941:

DeathPanel.8362:

silvermember.8941:

stof.9341:

Red Falcon.8257:

they probably also partecipated guild missions

Not really. And even if he was ikittenerg guild, how will a level 20 player participate in a guild mission that sends him into Frostgorge Sound or Fireheart Rise ?

Edit: wth, since when is the three letters N A and Z censored and for what reason? XD

The question is WHY would a level 20 character be concern about Level 80 gear?

BTW I don’t agree with ARenanet stance on forcing players to join guilds to get gear, I wish the was another method to get rings, because I certainly WONT ever ever join a guild. Guilds change the way, I play games and I don’t want to be bound by anybody other than myself. And I wish I could craft them even if they require a lot of work or reasonable work.

For the 50th time, you are NOT forced to join guilds to get those items because you have the option to get those SAME items from the laurel vendor for laurels/ectos.

I do know that, but it cost me less laurels or time and stuff. I would rather they be other ways to achieve them that doesn’t screw over or at least push you into joining a guild, which is really my problem.

Wrong. It does not push you to joining a guild because you have an alternate way to get the item.

You are simply complaining because the alternate way is not kitten easy. It has nothing to do with guilds. You would be here complaining regardless even if the only way to get it was through laurels and ectos.

Exactly as Jornophelanthas.1475 said. (btw I am a guy).

My issue is it unfairly reward guilds over the individual. If the was another way that took the exact amount of time or even comparably closer amount, I wouldn’t care. The current system punishes players that don’t want to subjugate themselves to a guild. I don’t want to be in a guild, my days in a guild are done.

If it cost 100 ecto and 100 laurel and everybody had to pay for that amount even people in a guild, i wouldn’t complain at all. As long as it is equally punishing players in a big or small guild, but the system doesn’t do that. I hate that. Obviously, i am not gonna join a big guild just go get kittenty earrings, my hope is that eventually Arenanet will figure out what they want to do and do the right thing.