Guild Wars 2

^Stop making things up.

Dusty Moon.4382:

chemiclord.3978:

DiogoSilva.7089:

In my opinion, GW1’s “unmitigated balance mess” offered more challenging content, more build diversity, a healthier pvp scene, and a more satisfying sense of horizontal progression than GW2’s look-this-game-was-simplified-to-be-easier-to-balance-but-it’s-balance-is-still-bad build stagnation.

And ya know… I just don’t see the build diversity in GW1 you and others do. I get the theory, but in actual gameplay, if you wanted to actually accomplish the “more challenging content”, you were pretty much required to pigeonhole yourself into one or two very specific builds.

Sure, for general “open” content with henchmen and heroes, you could pretty much run whatever… but that’s kinda true in GW2’s open world as well. You can run out freakin’ Nomad gear with a 0/0/6/6/2 build and any weapon in your collection and complete open-world content.

Don’t get me wrong, I get the numbers game of GW1’s skill variety and the sheer number of builds you could run if you so wanted to; but the practical application of that variety was… unimpressive, in my opinion.

Chemilord has it spot on. People are looking at GW1 through rose-colored glasses. In Gw1, if you wanted to make it through Nightfall, (after EotM was introduced) everyone used the Ursan skill – it was so OP as to be ludicrous. When they nerfed it, every Mesmer had to carry PI. So, yes even though it had more skills, it has less usable skills.

Confused. How did folks get through NF before EoTM came out? Would that mean it was done without ursan? I didn’t buy EoTN till after I had done the three campaigns. Obviously I wasn’t able to finish those campaigns without PI, but I did. Very confused.

Apparently I used a bunch of builds that don’t actually exist. I was also late to the game and just had Proph at first, in spite of the “meta” having skills from Factions, NF and EoTN. Bizarre that I made it through without meta builds I guess. With hench, no less. Must have been lucky getting by with so many “unusable” skills.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Vayne.8563:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

Being the least mediocre in a sea of mediocre game releases isn’t a revolution in gaming.

Terrible analogy. It would work a lot better if for the last 8 years, the genre hasn’t been leading people around by the nose like sheep. You can’t go from what the genre has become to something totally revolutionary because no one would buy or play it. You have to change culture in baby steps.

Really. Given a context (land of the blind) and a slight advantage (one eye) elevates that slight advantage to a very substantial one.. in context.

Given a context (bland, carbon copy MMO releases) and a slight advantage (in my eyes, art and environment) elevates that slight advantage to a substantial one. In context.

or….

Given a context (8 years of sheep herding) and a slight advantage (a baby step) elevates that slight advantage to a substantial one.

/shrug. Slight advantage is slight. IMO from my POV.

The analogy reflects my point of view. My opinion. In that, from my POV, it is valid.

End of topic on my end. Infractions, ya know.

It’s a bad analogy because it takes vision to know how much the market can take. That’s the thing. You’re assuming choices were made blindly. I’m assuming they discussed things that they wanted to do and decided the market couldn’t stand that drastic a change.

Just like they wanted to make the game all DEs and added hearts because people needed that direction.

You can call anyone a one-eyed man if you want, but you weren’t there at development meetings. You don’t really know if it’s a one-eyed man making these decisions or someone with two eyes, who had to drag an entire genre out of the spood-fed dark ages.

Believe me, MMO players are their own worst enemies.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Dusty Moon.4382:

chemiclord.3978:

DiogoSilva.7089:

In my opinion, GW1’s “unmitigated balance mess” offered more challenging content, more build diversity, a healthier pvp scene, and a more satisfying sense of horizontal progression than GW2’s look-this-game-was-simplified-to-be-easier-to-balance-but-it’s-balance-is-still-bad build stagnation.

And ya know… I just don’t see the build diversity in GW1 you and others do. I get the theory, but in actual gameplay, if you wanted to actually accomplish the “more challenging content”, you were pretty much required to pigeonhole yourself into one or two very specific builds.

Sure, for general “open” content with henchmen and heroes, you could pretty much run whatever… but that’s kinda true in GW2’s open world as well. You can run out freakin’ Nomad gear with a 0/0/6/6/2 build and any weapon in your collection and complete open-world content.

Don’t get me wrong, I get the numbers game of GW1’s skill variety and the sheer number of builds you could run if you so wanted to; but the practical application of that variety was… unimpressive, in my opinion.

Chemilord has it spot on. People are looking at GW1 through rose-colored glasses. In Gw1, if you wanted to make it through Nightfall, (after EotM was introduced) everyone used the Ursan skill – it was so OP as to be ludicrous. When they nerfed it, every Mesmer had to carry PI. So, yes even though it had more skills, it has less usable skills.

Confused. How did folks get through NF before EoTM came out? Would that mean it was done without ursan? I didn’t buy EoTN till after I had done the three campaigns. Obviously I wasn’t able to finish those campaigns without PI, but I did. Very confused.

Apparently I used a bunch of builds that don’t actually exist. I was also late to the game and just had Proph at first, in spite of the “meta” having skills from Factions, NF and EoTN. Bizarre that I made it through without meta builds I guess. With hench, no less. Must have been lucky getting by with so many “unusable” skills.

Sure you could use less optimal builds. I did too. Just like you can play Guild Wars 2 without running pure zerker and still get through content. Not forcing yourself into zerker does open up other possibilities. In fact the story is pretty congruent.

The difference is in Guild Wars 1 you could do most of the game with heroes and no one could tell you not to use certain skills or you can’t join their party. That only generally happens in Dungeons in Guild Wars 2.

And if you run your own groups or join a guild you can still do anything.

Where as I had trouble finding parties in Guild Wars 1 if I didn’t use the build of the month. Sure you ckittene anything you want….until you’re trying to find a group to kill Duncan Black, or trying to get into a DOA group.

Vayne.8563:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Vayne.8563:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

Being the least mediocre in a sea of mediocre game releases isn’t a revolution in gaming.

Terrible analogy. It would work a lot better if for the last 8 years, the genre hasn’t been leading people around by the nose like sheep. You can’t go from what the genre has become to something totally revolutionary because no one would buy or play it. You have to change culture in baby steps.

Really. Given a context (land of the blind) and a slight advantage (one eye) elevates that slight advantage to a very substantial one.. in context.

Given a context (bland, carbon copy MMO releases) and a slight advantage (in my eyes, art and environment) elevates that slight advantage to a substantial one. In context.

or….

Given a context (8 years of sheep herding) and a slight advantage (a baby step) elevates that slight advantage to a substantial one.

/shrug. Slight advantage is slight. IMO from my POV.

The analogy reflects my point of view. My opinion. In that, from my POV, it is valid.

End of topic on my end. Infractions, ya know.

It’s a bad analogy because it takes vision to know how much the market can take. That’s the thing. You’re assuming choices were made blindly. I’m assuming they discussed things that they wanted to do and decided the market couldn’t stand that drastic a change.

Just like they wanted to make the game all DEs and added hearts because people needed that direction.

You can call anyone a one-eyed man if you want, but you weren’t there at development meetings. You don’t really know if it’s a one-eyed man making these decisions or someone with two eyes, who had to drag an entire genre out of the spood-fed dark ages.

Believe me, MMO players are their own worst enemies.

Wow. Just… wow. The analogy has nothing to do with blindness or one eyed persons. Or development decisions. Or vision. Nothing. It is an adage, an idiom.
http://www.usingenglish.com/reference/idioms/in+the+land+of+the+blind+the+one-eyed+man+is+king.html

It is not an assumption. It is the only reason I play this game, at this time. My decision to play this is as much based on the failure of ESO and Wildstar, among many others, as it is anything GW2 has to offer. I am pretty much the “expert” on my own decisions, thanks. The idiom holds. It describes my viewpoint.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Vayne.8563:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Vayne.8563:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

Being the least mediocre in a sea of mediocre game releases isn’t a revolution in gaming.

Terrible analogy. It would work a lot better if for the last 8 years, the genre hasn’t been leading people around by the nose like sheep. You can’t go from what the genre has become to something totally revolutionary because no one would buy or play it. You have to change culture in baby steps.

Really. Given a context (land of the blind) and a slight advantage (one eye) elevates that slight advantage to a very substantial one.. in context.

Given a context (bland, carbon copy MMO releases) and a slight advantage (in my eyes, art and environment) elevates that slight advantage to a substantial one. In context.

or….

Given a context (8 years of sheep herding) and a slight advantage (a baby step) elevates that slight advantage to a substantial one.

/shrug. Slight advantage is slight. IMO from my POV.

The analogy reflects my point of view. My opinion. In that, from my POV, it is valid.

End of topic on my end. Infractions, ya know.

It’s a bad analogy because it takes vision to know how much the market can take. That’s the thing. You’re assuming choices were made blindly. I’m assuming they discussed things that they wanted to do and decided the market couldn’t stand that drastic a change.

Just like they wanted to make the game all DEs and added hearts because people needed that direction.

You can call anyone a one-eyed man if you want, but you weren’t there at development meetings. You don’t really know if it’s a one-eyed man making these decisions or someone with two eyes, who had to drag an entire genre out of the spood-fed dark ages.

Believe me, MMO players are their own worst enemies.

Wow. Just… wow. The analogy has nothing to do with blindness or one eyed persons. Or development decisions. Or vision. Nothing. It is an adage, an idiom.
http://www.usingenglish.com/reference/idioms/in+the+land+of+the+blind+the+one-eyed+man+is+king.html

It is not an assumption. It is the only reason I play this game, at this time. My decision to play this is as much based on the failure of ESO and Wildstar, among many others, as it is anything GW2 has to offer. I am pretty much the “expert” on my own decisions, thanks. The idiom holds. It describes my viewpoint.

I know the idiom, thanks for the link. The definition one gets from that is that to blind people a man with one eye sees a lot more… but it also implies a man with two eyes sees even more. It really is the implication.

So what you’re saying is that this game is the best of a bad lot. You’re saying it’s mediocre, but you’ve said all along that Anet doesn’t really have the vision it needs to make the game great…from your point of view. It’s not like this is secret hidden knowledge. I’m not guessing here. You’re disenchanted with the company for the decisions they made.

And I’m saying they could have very well had “two eyes” and made those same design decisions based on what they thought the MMO player base could accept, or convert too.

It’s all very nice to have high lofty ideals and make the perfect game. However, I suspect the perfect game for most of us wouldn’t do very well, because it would be tailored for us, and games, particularly MMOs are expensive to make. A single demographic is generally not going to pay the bills.

Not for a huge project like this. Using the expression has certain implications. You may have applied it to the game but plenty of people are applying it to the company that makes the game.

If you read some of the threads, there are plenty of people who simply couldn’t see past the stuff that already existed, and those people, unfortunately are like a leash on the genre.

If you’re stating the fact that this game could be better, I agree. If you’re stating the fact that this game could be better and remain somewhat successful, I’d agree a lot more cautiously.

Dusty Moon.4382:

In Gw1, if you wanted to make it through Nightfall, (after EotM was introduced) everyone used the Ursan skill – it was so OP as to be ludicrous. When they nerfed it, every Mesmer had to carry PI. So, yes even though it had more skills, it has less usable skills.

Complete and utter fabrication. No more accurate than if I were to say that no one used Ursan and no mesmer ever carried PI.

Inventing, “facts,” to support your position is a pretty solid indication that it doesn’t have a leg to stand on.

Of course if you can provide proof of your claim (PS: we both know you cannot) that would be something different.

Ashen.2907:

Dusty Moon.4382:

In Gw1, if you wanted to make it through Nightfall, (after EotM was introduced) everyone used the Ursan skill – it was so OP as to be ludicrous. When they nerfed it, every Mesmer had to carry PI. So, yes even though it had more skills, it has less usable skills.

Complete and utter fabrication. No more accurate than if I were to say that no one used Ursan and no mesmer ever carried PI.

Inventing, “facts,” to support your position is a pretty solid indication that it doesn’t have a leg to stand on.

Of course if you can provide proof of your claim (PS: we both know you cannot) that would be something different.

I am NOT inventing facts. I was playing GW1 at that time. Pretending that GW1 had no balance issues, is ludicrous to say the least. Ursan was the build of choice for more than 6 months after EotN was released. PI was always wanted as people were spamming for that in LFG. They were the player Meta flavor of the day.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Talk:Ursan_Blessing/Archive_1\

Proof – don’t need any more. Anyone who played GW1, during that time will tell you the exact same thing. Luckily, those were PvE only skills and could not be used in HoH, GvG or any Faction Arena.

Dusty Moon.4382:

Ashen.2907:

Dusty Moon.4382:

In Gw1, if you wanted to make it through Nightfall, (after EotM was introduced) everyone used the Ursan skill – it was so OP as to be ludicrous. When they nerfed it, every Mesmer had to carry PI. So, yes even though it had more skills, it has less usable skills.

Complete and utter fabrication. No more accurate than if I were to say that no one used Ursan and no mesmer ever carried PI.

Inventing, “facts,” to support your position is a pretty solid indication that it doesn’t have a leg to stand on.

Of course if you can provide proof of your claim (PS: we both know you cannot) that would be something different.

I am NOT inventing facts. I was playing GW1 at that time. Pretending that GW1 had no balance issues, is ludicrous to say the least. Ursan was the build of choice for more than 6 months after EotN was released. PI was always wanted as people were spamming for that in LFG. They were the player Meta flavor of the day.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Talk:Ursan_Blessing/Archive_1\

Proof – don’t need any more. Anyone who played GW1, during that time will tell you the exact same thing. Luckily, those were PvE only skills and could not be used in HoH, GvG or any Faction Arena.

I don’t know how anyone could say that Guild Wars 1 had no balance issues. I think people took your “everyone” as a literal statement instead of a casual one. The use of the listed skills was prevalent, and many many people required you to use those specific skills in parties.

Oh, I think everyone understands GW1 had a TON of balance issues. I think if they were really honest with themselves, they’d agree it was even WORSE than the balance issues GW1 has.

But the diversity was worth the lack of balance, because to them most of the fun was FINDING those OP builds and testing them against what other people found.

chemiclord.3978:

Oh, I think everyone understands GW1 had a TON of balance issues. I think if they were really honest with themselves, they’d agree it was even WORSE than the balance issues GW1 has.

But the diversity was worth the lack of balance, because to them most of the fun was FINDING those OP builds and testing them against what other people found.

No – not even close. GW1 was so out of balance and A.net actually said it was a mistake to have primary and secondary professions and that was the biggest cause of imbalance because of unintended synergies.

The diversity was not worth the imbalance. Also, as I pointed out, there were many ‘flavor of the day builds’ that were so OP. If you GvG or HoH with a balanced group you were pigeon-holed into one or 2 specific builds – that is not diversity.

Dusty Moon.4382:

Ashen.2907:

Dusty Moon.4382:

In Gw1, if you wanted to make it through Nightfall, (after EotM was introduced) everyone used the Ursan skill – it was so OP as to be ludicrous. When they nerfed it, every Mesmer had to carry PI. So, yes even though it had more skills, it has less usable skills.

Complete and utter fabrication. No more accurate than if I were to say that no one used Ursan and no mesmer ever carried PI.

Inventing, “facts,” to support your position is a pretty solid indication that it doesn’t have a leg to stand on.

Of course if you can provide proof of your claim (PS: we both know you cannot) that would be something different.

I am NOT inventing facts. I was playing GW1 at that time. Pretending that GW1 had no balance issues, is ludicrous to say the least. Ursan was the build of choice for more than 6 months after EotN was released. PI was always wanted as people were spamming for that in LFG. They were the player Meta flavor of the day.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Talk:Ursan_Blessing/Archive_1\

Proof – don’t need any more. Anyone who played GW1, during that time will tell you the exact same thing. Luckily, those were PvE only skills and could not be used in HoH, GvG or any Faction Arena.

I was playing GW at that time too. Not everyone was using Ursan. I, for example, did not use Ursan. Neither did the people I played with. so your claim that everyone was using Ursan is a fabrication, an invented fact.

I am not pretending that GW did not have balance issues. I do not claim that it was perfectly balanced. I do prefer GW1’s balance over what we have here. That does not mean that I think GW1 lacked balance issues.

Not every mesmer had to carry PI. My mesmer, for example, did not have PI in any of his builds. Your claim there is yet another invented fact.

Were Ursan and PI popular skills ? Of course they were, but claiming that everyone used or relied on them is ludicrous.

chemiclord.3978:

Oh, I think everyone understands GW1 had a TON of balance issues. I think if they were really honest with themselves, they’d agree it was even WORSE than the balance issues GW1 has.

But the diversity was worth the lack of balance, because to them most of the fun was FINDING those OP builds and testing them against what other people found.

Purely a matter of opinion whether it was worth it or not. A lot of the PvP crowd left the game because of balance issues, so for those people that left, it wasn’t worth it.

And I still had the problem of not being able to get into groups to do hard content if I didn’t run a specific build. Diversity was little help to me then.

I never used Ursan. Not even sure what it was. If PI is Pain Inverter, I did use that, but not on my Mesmer.

Just saying… everyone didn’t do what maybe the majority did. =)

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

I never used Ursan. Not even sure what it was. If PI is Pain Inverter, I did use that, but not on my Mesmer.

Just saying… everyone didn’t do what maybe the majority did. =)

Did you spend a lot of time trying to get into DOA or UW groups though?

I still to this day don’t understand how people can defend the LS so ferociously.

If you add up everything the LS has given the game since the first LS patch to this date it’s really nothing to brag about, far from it.

And the patch every 2 weeks most of the time to me, feels insulting that it’s labeled as ‘content’.

Where’s the actual long term lasting maps?
Where’s the new races?
Where’s the new weapons?
Where’s the (good) new skills?
Where’s the new traits (we’ve had almost none added, since launch)
Where’s the new weapons for professions? (Staff warriors for example)
Where’s the frequent balance updates?
Where’s the new mini games?
Where’s the new PvP game modes?
Where’s the new PvP maps? Production on this seemingly stopped.
Where’s the PROPER PvP rewards? If I pvp I want pvp stuff, not PvE materials T_T
Where’s the new classes?
Where’s the new fractals? (Actual 100% fresh new ones?)
Where’s the new PvP reward track skins?
Where’s the new dungeons?

When I read such comments as “You’ve outdone yourself Anet!” and so on in regards to the new patches, and the Dry top map it makes me want to cry, that people are so easily pleased with such minimal content being added.

People like to say the complainers are overly negative, and so some degree they are right depending on what the person is complaining about.

But I think it’s actually the reverse, that people are far too easily pleased with the amount of actual solid good content we get and the speed it’s delivered.

Like someone stated it’s going to take several months to get the full Dry top, it’s laughable.

Mjgander.1905:

I still to this day don’t understand how people can defend the LS so ferociously.

If you add up everything the LS has given the game since the first LS patch to this date it’s really nothing to brag about, far from it.

And the patch every 2 weeks most of the time to me, feels insulting that it’s labeled as ‘content’.

Where’s the actual long term lasting maps?
Where’s the new races?
Where’s the new weapons?
Where’s the (good) new skills?
Where’s the new traits (we’ve had almost none added, since launch)
Where’s the new weapons for professions? (Staff warriors for example)
Where’s the frequent balance updates?
Where’s the new mini games?
Where’s the new PvP game modes?
Where’s the new PvP maps? Production on this seemingly stopped.
Where’s the PROPER PvP rewards? If I pvp I want pvp stuff, not PvE materials T_T
Where’s the new classes?
Where’s the new fractals? (Actual 100% fresh new ones?)
Where’s the new PvP reward track skins?

Sure I play this game, but I seriously don’t understand this games vocal forum playerbase when I read such high praise on the new patches, “You’ve outdone yourselves Anet!” so on, people think the complains are overly negative, I actually think the people who are happy with the current content and speed of it are too easy to please.

Like someone stated it’s going to take several months to get the full Dry top, it’s laughable.

I don’t understand how people can go see shows on Broadway. I mean you see them and after you leave, well, it’s done. You’ve nothing left but the memories. But people still go see shows. And they spend a lot more on them than they do on playing Guild Wars 2.

I really enjoyed the Marionette fight. I can’t do it now, but I had that experience. To say that I got nothing out of it would be understating it. And…there’s nothing I’ve played in ANY game that was as much fun for me as that.

I really enjoyed saving the people in LA. I haven’t played anything in any MMO like that. I thought it was well designed and a lot of fun. I really loved the Nightmare Tower.

I don’t have to defend the Living World, because I enjoyed it. I can understand if it’s not your thing.

But you know, If the Marionette was here now, I wouldn’t be doing it, any more than I still do Tequatl. I’ve moved on to other things.

Those who like the living world aren’t necessarily “defending” it, so much as talking about how much they personally enjoyed it.

And you know, I can see why people don’t like it. I don’t understand people who can’t why someone would though.

Yes I understand it’s each to their own.

And the LS could be great, better than an expansion easily, if they actually did what they said it would be capable of.

I do believe Anet stated that LS will cover an expansions worth of content, which it hasn’t by far, not even close.

The point I was making in my post is that the LS just simply falls so horribly short of an expansions worth of content it really is silly, and that if you add up total content it has provided us with and you see how little there really is, I can’t understand how people can log in each patch and legitimately be happy with it all.

People want what I listed, they said LS is capable of doing such things so my question is: Where is it all?

Mjgander.1905:

Yes I understand it’s each to their own.

And the LS could be great, better than an expansion easily, if they actually did what they said it would be capable of.

I do believe Anet stated that LS will cover an expansions worth of content, which it hasn’t by far, not even close.

The point I was making in my post is that the LS just simply falls so horribly short of an expansions worth of content it really is silly, and that if you add up total content it has provided us with and you see how little there really is, I can’t understand how people can log in each patch and legitimately be happy with it all.

People want what I listed, they said LS is capable of doing such things so my question is: Where is it all?

First of all the expansions worth of content comment was explained many times in the past, and it’s was corrected, so people would understand what it actually meant. This was long before most of the living story was delivered in Season 1. Bringing it up now isn’t particularly useful because even before the best stuff in Season 1 we knew it was spoke out of turn. It was a bad use of language that people latched onto. It’s done.

However, what was also said and explained was that Season 1 was like a test. No one was doing that in any other game. They had to see what worked and didn’t work.

In Season 2 the content is permanent, repeatable and we are uncovering a new zone.

Season 1 was the learning bit, Season 2 is the delivery bit. People act like this sort of thing is done in every game all the time. It’s not. There’s a learning curve. Anet is learning.

And this kind of learning can’t be rushed.

Vayne.8563:

Mjgander.1905:

Yes I understand it’s each to their own.

And the LS could be great, better than an expansion easily, if they actually did what they said it would be capable of.

I do believe Anet stated that LS will cover an expansions worth of content, which it hasn’t by far, not even close.

The point I was making in my post is that the LS just simply falls so horribly short of an expansions worth of content it really is silly, and that if you add up total content it has provided us with and you see how little there really is, I can’t understand how people can log in each patch and legitimately be happy with it all.

People want what I listed, they said LS is capable of doing such things so my question is: Where is it all?

First of all the expansions worth of content comment was explained many times in the past, and it’s was corrected, so people would understand what it actually meant. This was long before most of the living story was delivered in Season 1. Bringing it up now isn’t particularly useful because even before the best stuff in Season 1 we knew it was spoke out of turn. It was a bad use of language that people latched onto. It’s done.

However, what was also said and explained was that Season 1 was like a test. No one was doing that in any other game. They had to see what worked and didn’t work.

In Season 2 the content is permanent, repeatable and we are uncovering a new zone.

Season 1 was the learning bit, Season 2 is the delivery bit. People act like this sort of thing is done in every game all the time. It’s not. There’s a learning curve. Anet is learning.

And this kind of learning can’t be rushed.

Season 1 was the learning bit? So what exactly did they learn?

That temporary content was a bad thing so they now make it permanent? It should have never been temporary to begin with, any one with any sense could have told Anet this, and we did, for how long?

And such things as making events one time only and so on, another thing they supposedly learnt? The thing I’m trying to say, is that alot of the things they have/are correcting in the LS should have never been a problem in the first place.

And we’re now uncovering a new map? Should I be happy about this? It’s been a month and look at the size of it compared to other maps, it’s small. Seriously nothing to be defending.

I really can’t stress enough, that the LS doesn’t deliver at all, and I really don’t see it stepping up to the level it should and needs to be at any time soon, given Anets track record. Whether it’s poor management, budget problems I don’t know, but something inside of Anet is going wrong for this amount of content and the speed it’s coming out to be happening.

Vayne.8563:

Mjgander.1905:

Yes I understand it’s each to their own.

And the LS could be great, better than an expansion easily, if they actually did what they said it would be capable of.

I do believe Anet stated that LS will cover an expansions worth of content, which it hasn’t by far, not even close.

The point I was making in my post is that the LS just simply falls so horribly short of an expansions worth of content it really is silly, and that if you add up total content it has provided us with and you see how little there really is, I can’t understand how people can log in each patch and legitimately be happy with it all.

People want what I listed, they said LS is capable of doing such things so my question is: Where is it all?

First of all the expansions worth of content comment was explained many times in the past, and it’s was corrected, so people would understand what it actually meant. This was long before most of the living story was delivered in Season 1. Bringing it up now isn’t particularly useful because even before the best stuff in Season 1 we knew it was spoke out of turn. It was a bad use of language that people latched onto. It’s done.

However, what was also said and explained was that Season 1 was like a test. No one was doing that in any other game. They had to see what worked and didn’t work.

In Season 2 the content is permanent, repeatable and we are uncovering a new zone.

Season 1 was the learning bit, Season 2 is the delivery bit. People act like this sort of thing is done in every game all the time. It’s not. There’s a learning curve. Anet is learning.

And this kind of learning can’t be rushed.

This i am totally agree. The living story approach was in my mind 10 years ago, what a surprise it finally come true. Actually it is quite similar to what i was imagine, some players doesn’t like it, but, i loved it.

Mjgander.1905:

Vayne.8563:

Mjgander.1905:

Yes I understand it’s each to their own.

And the LS could be great, better than an expansion easily, if they actually did what they said it would be capable of.

I do believe Anet stated that LS will cover an expansions worth of content, which it hasn’t by far, not even close.

The point I was making in my post is that the LS just simply falls so horribly short of an expansions worth of content it really is silly, and that if you add up total content it has provided us with and you see how little there really is, I can’t understand how people can log in each patch and legitimately be happy with it all.

People want what I listed, they said LS is capable of doing such things so my question is: Where is it all?

First of all the expansions worth of content comment was explained many times in the past, and it’s was corrected, so people would understand what it actually meant. This was long before most of the living story was delivered in Season 1. Bringing it up now isn’t particularly useful because even before the best stuff in Season 1 we knew it was spoke out of turn. It was a bad use of language that people latched onto. It’s done.

However, what was also said and explained was that Season 1 was like a test. No one was doing that in any other game. They had to see what worked and didn’t work.

In Season 2 the content is permanent, repeatable and we are uncovering a new zone.

Season 1 was the learning bit, Season 2 is the delivery bit. People act like this sort of thing is done in every game all the time. It’s not. There’s a learning curve. Anet is learning.

And this kind of learning can’t be rushed.

Season 1 was the learning bit? So what exactly did they learn?

That temporary content was a bad thing so they now make it permanent? It should have never been temporary to begin with, any one with any sense could have told Anet this, and we did, for how long?

And such things as making events one time only and so on, another thing they supposedly learnt? The thing I’m trying to say, is that alot of the things they have/are correcting in the LS should have never been a problem in the first place.

And we’re now uncovering a new map? Should I be happy about this? It’s been a month and look at the size of it compared to other maps, it’s small. Seriously nothing to be defending.

I really can’t stress enough, that the LS doesn’t deliver at all, and I really don’t see it stepping up to the level it should and needs to be at any time soon, given Anets track record. Whether it’s poor management, budget problems I don’t know, but something inside of Anet is going wrong for this amount of content and the speed it’s coming out to be happening.

I can’t really stress enough that the LS delivers brilliantly, it’s one of the best things about this game, and probably one of the main reasons I still play it. That and my guild.

The temporary content thing is a good idea if you don’t know what’s good and what’s not good. Anet explained it was a learning process. Some people didn’t want to hear it.

But they learned a lot of things not just to make content permanent. The story telling is better. The focus is more on your character (people calling you boss etc). The continuity is greater. That it’s repeatable as well as permanent is a big thing (they are different). The journal came out of that learn and that’s a pretty cool thing.

The nature of the new zone was probably a learned lesson too and a lot of people seem to like it. Anet had to find the balance between too difficult for most people, and stuff that rewarded people for showing up but still rewarded people more for organizing and figuring out how to beat the content.

Some people, though, prefer the Living Story approach to content delivery. It seems harsh, to me, to judge the system on its first iteration. Maybe we can all remember the first time we tried to do something we had never done before, and how it did not always go as well as we thought it would. But, we learned what worked and what didn’t work, and we improved at what we were trying to accomplish. Sometimes it feels, to me, that players forget that the Devs are humans just like us. Ah, well. Sometimes it is difficult to see the good in things, when we are disappointed.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Some people, though, prefer the Living Story approach to content delivery. It seems harsh, to me, to judge the system on its first iteration. Maybe we can all remember the first time we tried to do something we had never done before, and how it did not always go as well as we thought it would. But, we learned what worked and what didn’t work, and we improved at what we were trying to accomplish. Sometimes it feels, to me, that players forget that the Devs are humans just like us. Ah, well. Sometimes it is difficult to see the good in things, when we are disappointed.

Gotta agree. I don’t expect Anet to really hit their stride with the living story until season three. They will make their mistakes, hopefully learn from them, and continue to improve their processes and their delivery.

I do like posts that talk of Anet as if it were an indie game company, together with the associated ’they’re still learning’ patting on the back, and all that in a supposedly AAA+ title.
You people…. are every company’s dream customer. Kiu

Welcome to two days ago

KarlaGrey.5903:

I do like posts that talk of Anet as if it were an indie game company, together with the associated ’they’re still learning’ patting on the back, and all that in a supposedly AAA+ title.
You people…. are every company’s dream customer. Kiu

Actually this is the most telling thing you said.

Professional artists of all kinds are always experimenting, always learning. This game is made by artists. If you’re not growing and learning, you’re not being creative. This isn’t some driving game, where you make a track, throw some cars on it and maybe figure out a few power ups.

The very idea that a AAA game company that takes chances and tries new things should get it right the first time is amazing to me. Maybe if they were making a pacman clone it wouldn’t be that way, but when a company goes into unchartered territory, almost by definition, they have to make it up as they go along.

Vayne.8563:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Dusty Moon.4382:

chemiclord.3978:

DiogoSilva.7089:

In my opinion, GW1’s “unmitigated balance mess” offered more challenging content, more build diversity, a healthier pvp scene, and a more satisfying sense of horizontal progression than GW2’s look-this-game-was-simplified-to-be-easier-to-balance-but-it’s-balance-is-still-bad build stagnation.

And ya know… I just don’t see the build diversity in GW1 you and others do. I get the theory, but in actual gameplay, if you wanted to actually accomplish the “more challenging content”, you were pretty much required to pigeonhole yourself into one or two very specific builds.

Sure, for general “open” content with henchmen and heroes, you could pretty much run whatever… but that’s kinda true in GW2’s open world as well. You can run out freakin’ Nomad gear with a 0/0/6/6/2 build and any weapon in your collection and complete open-world content.

Don’t get me wrong, I get the numbers game of GW1’s skill variety and the sheer number of builds you could run if you so wanted to; but the practical application of that variety was… unimpressive, in my opinion.

Chemilord has it spot on. People are looking at GW1 through rose-colored glasses. In Gw1, if you wanted to make it through Nightfall, (after EotM was introduced) everyone used the Ursan skill – it was so OP as to be ludicrous. When they nerfed it, every Mesmer had to carry PI. So, yes even though it had more skills, it has less usable skills.

Confused. How did folks get through NF before EoTM came out? Would that mean it was done without ursan? I didn’t buy EoTN till after I had done the three campaigns. Obviously I wasn’t able to finish those campaigns without PI, but I did. Very confused.

Apparently I used a bunch of builds that don’t actually exist. I was also late to the game and just had Proph at first, in spite of the “meta” having skills from Factions, NF and EoTN. Bizarre that I made it through without meta builds I guess. With hench, no less. Must have been lucky getting by with so many “unusable” skills.

Sure you could use less optimal builds. I did too. Just like you can play Guild Wars 2 without running pure zerker and still get through content. Not forcing yourself into zerker does open up other possibilities. In fact the story is pretty congruent.

The difference is in Guild Wars 1 you could do most of the game with heroes and no one could tell you not to use certain skills or you can’t join their party. That only generally happens in Dungeons in Guild Wars 2.

And if you run your own groups or join a guild you can still do anything.

Where as I had trouble finding parties in Guild Wars 1 if I didn’t use the build of the month. Sure you ckittene anything you want….until you’re trying to find a group to kill Duncan Black, or trying to get into a DOA group.

This +1… this is truly perplexing to me. in Gw1 a bad build could get you killed repeatedly yet here so many people state they never went with the best build and kept creating their own. Perfect thats what everyone should have done in my opinion. But then we come to Gw2, game still has 1000s of possible combinations but suddenly everyone acts like there is just one possible build, ironically in a game that no matter how much you mess your build you’re likely still succeed!

I just dont understand it.

You’d expect one’d understand that cars with square wheels can only go so far…but nope. I don’t think one needs to ‘take chances’ and try making content catered to the masses just to realize it’ll end up LQ and zerg-rewarding. Or that watering down game mechanics will in effect kill a large portion of depth and the associated character building.
Logical thinking must be so 2006, eh.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Vayne.8563:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Vayne.8563:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

Being the least mediocre in a sea of mediocre game releases isn’t a revolution in gaming.

Terrible analogy. It would work a lot better if for the last 8 years, the genre hasn’t been leading people around by the nose like sheep. You can’t go from what the genre has become to something totally revolutionary because no one would buy or play it. You have to change culture in baby steps.

Really. Given a context (land of the blind) and a slight advantage (one eye) elevates that slight advantage to a very substantial one.. in context.

Given a context (bland, carbon copy MMO releases) and a slight advantage (in my eyes, art and environment) elevates that slight advantage to a substantial one. In context.

or….

Given a context (8 years of sheep herding) and a slight advantage (a baby step) elevates that slight advantage to a substantial one.

/shrug. Slight advantage is slight. IMO from my POV.

The analogy reflects my point of view. My opinion. In that, from my POV, it is valid.

End of topic on my end. Infractions, ya know.

It’s a bad analogy because it takes vision to know how much the market can take. That’s the thing. You’re assuming choices were made blindly. I’m assuming they discussed things that they wanted to do and decided the market couldn’t stand that drastic a change.

Just like they wanted to make the game all DEs and added hearts because people needed that direction.

You can call anyone a one-eyed man if you want, but you weren’t there at development meetings. You don’t really know if it’s a one-eyed man making these decisions or someone with two eyes, who had to drag an entire genre out of the spood-fed dark ages.

Believe me, MMO players are their own worst enemies.

Wow. Just… wow. The analogy has nothing to do with blindness or one eyed persons. Or development decisions. Or vision. Nothing. It is an adage, an idiom.
http://www.usingenglish.com/reference/idioms/in+the+land+of+the+blind+the+one-eyed+man+is+king.html

It is not an assumption. It is the only reason I play this game, at this time. My decision to play this is as much based on the failure of ESO and Wildstar, among many others, as it is anything GW2 has to offer. I am pretty much the “expert” on my own decisions, thanks. The idiom holds. It describes my viewpoint.

Not that I feel entitled or even qualified to decide for you whats good or bad, obviously no one does but one thing I dont understand is you’re stating gw2 is bad, its just that everything is worst, hmmm thats kinda illogical. you idiom is essentially saying if something is slighly better but not the best compare to something else that’s essentially worst, that not ideal solution can still be your chosen solution. It just wouldnt work if it is reworded in the context you’re using it.

What I am trying to say is, nothing is ever perfect, everything can be improved. so how is bad and good decided? simply speaking by relation to each other. good is what meets your needs better then anything else. Coming up with a list of features on how something might be done better just doesnt work.

Think the first time humanity found they could use horses for transportation, they surely thought wow this is awesome, they didnt think ohh but horse can die, and they require feeding, and they’re slow and they dont move on water, or over mountains, etc… Years later we got model-T cars and yeah that was a better solution and after a while (as model-t fixed it quirks) horses became a bad solution, then we got modern cars, ships and planes. We’re all happy they’re good means of transport but in a few years time most likely what we currently have will also be considered a bad solution compared with what we have.

I dont think its fair to state what best meets your needs is bad. by definition that would be good. Has room for improvement? lacks stuff you’d wish it had? certainly I am sure everyone pro or against the game feels the same. I know I’d have a never ending list of things I wish the game would do that would make it simply perfect. If you’re wondering chief amongst them is having the gave provide a full holodeck like experience. Nothing would beat actually being then and slapping lord faren hard next time he does something stupid. Or fire a squirt gun at wet-o-tron next time it whines.

Ha! I’ve been waiting for the Holodeck for 45+ years!

KarlaGrey.5903:

You’d expect one’d understand that cars with square wheels can only go so far…but nope. I don’t think one needs to ‘take chances’ and try making content catered to the masses just to realize it’ll end up LQ and zerg-rewarding. Or that watering down game mechanics will in effect kill a large portion of depth and the associated character building.
Logical thinking must be so 2006, eh.

only we’re not talking about about cars with square wheels, we’re talking about flying cars here. Now most people think of flying cars as something amazing but creating a flying car is tricky business. You can have a big car manufacturer take the challenge but their years of experience will not make it any easier then if anyone else had to do it cause its an uncharted frontier. Experience helps when you’re doing the same thing everyone else is doing, when you try something new like Vayne said you need to learn.

That being said when someone succeeds in bringing a flying car to the market not everyone will like it. Even some who always stated they want one might realize it wasnt what they really needed after all. Like the saying goes, sometimes what you want isnt what you need. Others will love though, thats the nature of new things. So what would said company do? stick to the ones that love it and ignore the ones that dont? no they learn what is it the ones that love it enjoy, they learn what reasons the ones who hate it have for hating it and they try a new iteration that as much as possible keeps what people love and improves what people hate.

thats not being amateurish or indie, thats the right way to go about designing something thats new and hasnt been done before.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Ha! I’ve been waiting for the Holodeck for 45+ years!

step 1 should arrive by the end of next year max… the whole experience as it should.. .who knows… lord faren and lucky-o-tron are still safe for now

Ah, well, I’m sure I will be dead before it ever becomes commonplace enough to afford. =(

Still, perhaps my children will be able to enjoy the experience.

Galen Grey.4709:

only we’re not talking about about cars with square wheels, we’re talking about flying cars here. Now most people think of flying cars as something amazing but creating a flying car is tricky business. You can have a big car manufacturer take the challenge but their years of experience will not make it any easier then if anyone else had to do it cause its an uncharted frontier. Experience helps when you’re doing the same thing everyone else is doing, when you try something new like Vayne said you need to learn.

That being said when someone succeeds in bringing a flying car to the market not everyone will like it. Even some who always stated they want one might realize it wasnt what they really needed after all. Like the saying goes, sometimes what you want isnt what you need. Others will love though, thats the nature of new things. So what would said company do? stick to the ones that love it and ignore the ones that dont? no they learn what is it the ones that love it enjoy, they learn what reasons the ones who hate it have for hating it and they try a new iteration that as much as possible keeps what people love and improves what people hate.

thats not being amateurish or indie, thats the right way to go about designing something thats new and hasnt been done before.

Let’s take LS as an example of this supposed ‘different to other mmos’ argument. LS is basically an expansion broken up into pieces and delivered periodically (minus the quality and size of content you’d normally receive in an expansion) as to keep players occupied and ultimately to make them purchase items from the Gem store. However does the increased frequency of adding content (granted, if it is not one of temporary nature) warrant the many downsides that come with it? Are all the bugs, subpar plots, zerging and the associated lagging worth the novelty of it? Because of its biweekly release schedule, many would agree that LS content is rushed, unpolished, and launched “eh, good enough”, as one poster once termed it. Yet here we are, arguing it’s all fine because they’re ‘trying new things out’.
Call my cynical, but I believe the main reason LS was opted for instead of a real expansion is the simple fact a large portion of the hype and goodwill they initially had is long gone, and the many players they lost in the process will not be purchasing an expansion (which is usually one of the main points of an expansion – to bring in inactive players, next to appeasing the active ones).

Another thing many supporters forget to take into account is also that the company does not adjust their approach all that often based on player feedback. Or to be more exact, it ‘bases’ it around positive feedback while disregarding most of criticism.

LS is mostly farming content, not an expansion broken into several parts. But they knew they got several things right, like Molten Facility, Aetherblades, Zephyrite and Queen’s Pavilion – which is why they brought them back at the end of Season 1 or incorporated into fractals.

Even something has to be said about the popularity of SAB (which I personally really dislike).

KarlaGrey.5903:

Let’s take LS as an example of this supposed ‘different to other mmos’ argument. LS is basically an expansion broken up into pieces and delivered periodically snip…

Why is LS quality low? Dry top looks pretty good, they introduced the sandstorm phenomena thats also very well done. The story instances are really well done that also have different dialog based on race and profession thats a nice touch. They got voice overs. The cinematic are top notch. I fail which part of it lacks quality.

As for quantity, thats hard to judge. Suffice to say they have a large team and this team has only been expanded since launch. LS or expansion they’ve not been sitting around stairing so while an expansion might have brought a different type of content I dont imagine it would have brought more of it. At least to a certain degree… we’ve argued before there is a learning curve to do something new and part of that might include scarping of content that doesnt work. we have no clue if this happened or not but its essentially the only possible scenario where the quantity argument would stand.

KarlaGrey.5903:

However does the increased frequency of adding content (granted, if it is not one of temporary nature) warrant the many downsides that come with it? Are all the bugs, subpar plots, zerging and the associated lagging worth the novelty of it? snip…

bugs was something that plagued LS when it first started its true it was bad, currently though? I have yet to come across any bug in S2, thats not to say they’re not there but while I experianced issues in the first half of season 1 I have yet to come across any issue in S2.

Subpar plot, S1 had a good plot, not really out of the ordinary but I wouldnt call it subpar. Season 2 so far is excellent. I understand this is subjective and maybe the plot is not to your liking, thats fair enough. Considering feedback on Reddit and here though quite a few people seem engaged with this new plot (while the plot was good for season 1, it did lack in presentation which in turn made people feel disengaged. In my opinion it was a presentation issue rather then a plot issue.)

KarlaGrey.5903:

Call my cynical, but I believe the main reason LS was opted for instead of a real expansion is the simple fact a large portion of the hype and goodwill they initially had is long gone, and the many players they lost in the process will not be purchasing an expansion (which is usually one of the main points of an expansion – to bring in inactive players, next to appeasing the active ones).

I would argue your case scenario would actually dictate the opposite response. If a large portion of players lost their good will, LS would not provide income for Anet. Players who dont play dont buy stuff off the Cashshop thats for sure. LS is not going to reel them back but an expansion might. I mean just look at the forum, the people who dislike the direction the game is going often say they’ll stop playing until an expansion is released right? now it may be an idle threat, or it may not be a representative sample sure but I dont think there is doubt that an expansion has a bigger chance to reel players in and is sure to be bought by most if not all the players who still play. Not just that but even if they stop releasing LS content to work on an expansion it wouldnt stop them from still selling stuff on the cash shop. From this point of view I dont think they have much to loose and a lot to gain really. Of course there is the other issue thats more likely a factor. LS keeps people engaged. It has them playing a few days every 2 weeks at least thats quite an advantage in more ways then one. Players who play the game are more likely to buy stuff off the cash shop. Players who continously play your game are less likely to take a break and replace your mmo with another one. A busy world is more attractive to new players then a dead one.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Another thing many supporters forget to take into account is also that the company does not adjust their approach all that often based on player feedback. Or to be more exact, it ‘bases’ it around positive feedback while disregarding most of criticism.

What makes you say that?
Crafting using materials from the bank
Researching new recipes using materials from the bank
FoV adjustment,
Temporary content -> permanent content
Dragonite ore drop increase
Champions dropping loot bags
Dungeons Rewards revamp
Ascended gear <- unfortunately
Wardrobe
Wallet
Trait system revamp
Dailies revamp a few times
Ascended gear crafting instead of daily acquisition <- unfortunately too

are all changes based on negative feedback and thats what I can think off right now, no research done. Probably missed some.

Wolfheart.7483:

Lady Celtaine.3760:

Taygus.4571:

Lady Celtaine.3760:

Taygus.4571:

mrauls.6519:

Why should we not log in though :S we enjoy the game, it’s the reason we’re on the forums now posting our opinion. What you’re offering isn’t a solution but a pseudo feeling of receiving what we’re asking for

Ok log in, but don’t play LS

This is basically how it works in games that do expansions.No new content for months on end.
It’s what you’re asking for, so don’t play LS for 1 year. There’s your expansion.

LOL even if I just let the LS accumulate being that I go into it at already lvl 80 I could easily solo the story side alone within a week or two. Waiting a year for a few weeks of story is a waste of time. The person you are replying to would be better to just do the LS as they come out and then log out untill the next update. :P

except, that is exactly what would happen with an expansion.

You just think there’s more content because it comes in a box.

Not strictly true starting a character from scratch and going through the personal story took a great deal more time, even if you only also factor leveling on the way ontop of the fact that personal story is very long from the start and didn’t need to build up over time like the LS/LW.

Living world may well be as long overall as the PS but when I go into living world and I’m already level 80, already have a build set up and can just plough through it solo unlike the getting stuck of the Personal story I did before, climbing levels, with incomplete builds that required you to team up with other people from time to time because not starting at level 80 with decent kit makes the process more difficult.

I don’t think there is more content just because it comes in a box, (gosh how insulting are you?) but what content there is certainly seems to last longer that way when you remember GW2’s predecessor.
In gw1 when we got the Cantha expansion we could start a new character in that expansion or if our Prophecies chars were high enough level transport them over. But if you started with a character from scratch again it did last longer because you had to level as you did it.
Some may call that a grind. But sadly the less grindy it is the shorter it lasts because the developers can’t meet our demand for new content fast enough. Ideally whether new content comes in the form of an expansion or the LS (I don’t actually care which as long as it comes) they may eventually get that balance between flow of story and making it last long enough to keep players satisfied. But that’s a matter of perspective.

This may be semantics to some, but Factions and Nightfall were stand alone campaigns. Eye of the North was an expansion in the more traditional sense. So I think comparing EotN to the additional GW2 content is a bit more fair than comparing GW2s additional content to stand alone campaign releases.

Thanks.

And to the poster you quoted.
You’ll still be level 80 in a GW2 expansion……………………………………..

And my point of the box,
was that it seems like more content when you get it all at once instead of a little every 2 weeks. Seems like more, but actually isnt.

@KarlaGrey

ohh one important factor I forgot to touch upon is Zerg content.. Arenanet have tried hard to draw up content that will fail if zerged. And they managed, a lot of those “zergy” LS releases will fail when a map zergs them. Players still insisted on zerging them because failure was preferable to them then success as it was more profitable for the short term to fail then to win. Now content is instanced, I do hope we will still get some of those big scale map size events cause they were great and immersive. In anycase there is only two way to solve that. instance it or have mobs drop no rewards. Each approach has pretty negative consequences. Sometimes there is just no viable solution to an issue.

LS is nothing new.

http://eq2.zam.com/wiki/Category:EQ2_World_Events

700 plus

World storyline events introduced new Races, Zones, return of the deities, Guild Halls, Zones, transportation systems, Cities revamps, Neriak, lore content, etc etc.

Somehow SOE managed one expansion a year (average) on top of these. Still does. World events are in addition to expansions, and are always “free”.

How is Anet less capable with more employees? Why are consumers so happy with so much less?

I honestly thought This game would incorporate as much as standard MMOs, with the unique gameplay and vision they showed they were capable of in GW. Instead of that, I see cookie cutter zerg content, recycled “innovations” promoted as groundbreaking, and far less QOL features than games launched years ago. Don’t even get me started on the copypasted writing and characters.

That game I hoped for is still my hope, but I think another company will have to do it. One that focuses on selling me features instead of selling me hype.

When one does, the door won’t hit me on the way out. I’m not holding my breath in this LCD market waiting for that.

(edited to include the Zam comprehensive list)

nexxe.7081:

Content = Karka Queen, Triple Wurm, Tequatl, EotM, Skills, Weapons, Armor, Traits, Zones, Dungeons, Fractals, Jumping Puzzles, WvW, SPvP, World Bosses, Champions, Dynamic Events, Map Completions, Heart Tasks, Professions, Crafting, Races, Customization, Dyes, Wardrobe, etc…

GW2 has this content, and people want more of this. Some of it has been upgraded, changed, and implemented, but the rate at which it’s implemented has been really slow. This is the major complaint from most people. It’s not about adding raids.

Some parts are so slow that upgrading havent even happened to them. Look at pvp game modes.
Oh, wait, spectator mode is a game mode. I should be satisfied.

Vayne.8563:

KarlaGrey.5903:

I do like posts that talk of Anet as if it were an indie game company, together with the associated ’they’re still learning’ patting on the back, and all that in a supposedly AAA+ title.
You people…. are every company’s dream customer. Kiu

Actually this is the most telling thing you said.

Professional artists of all kinds are always experimenting, always learning. This game is made by artists. If you’re not growing and learning, you’re not being creative. This isn’t some driving game, where you make a track, throw some cars on it and maybe figure out a few power ups.

The very idea that a AAA game company that takes chances and tries new things should get it right the first time is amazing to me. Maybe if they were making a pacman clone it wouldn’t be that way, but when a company goes into unchartered territory, almost by definition, they have to make it up as they go along.

Some people will never understand that creativity is something that can’t be learned like repairing a car or whatever.

Also often people are so used to what they know that everything new seems bad at first.

So for some people it would be the best on the first look if Anet just said :
Yeah ok .. here you have 15 raid-dungeons with gear grind .. have fun the next year when we give you the next dungeons with a new level cap

However they wanted to try something else but they simply have to test what works and what not since beeing an AAA whatever doesn’t mean you are a prophet that knows already today what will work in the future, and sometimes you can have really brilliant ideas, however they don’t sell for what reason ever. And in the end ANet is of course a company and wants to make profit, so if their ideas don’t sell at all they simply have to try soemthing else .. or fall back to the same old stuff that everyone else does.

Galen Grey.4709:

Why is LS quality low? Dry top looks pretty good, they introduced the sandstorm phenomena thats also very well done. The story instances are really well done that also have different dialog based on race and profession thats a nice touch. They got voice overs. The cinematic are top notch. I fail which part of it lacks quality.

Well, one of the game’s saving graces is that it (supposedly) ‘looks good’. Unfortunately, looking good is only about …. the looks (shock). It has no relation to plot quality and ways of delivery. Neither do animations and cinematics (is this a troll?)

Galen Grey.4709:

As for quantity, thats hard to judge. snip .

You should be more concerned about the quality than the quantity. And no, I am not referring to voice overs nor cool cinematics (how are those even arguments for quality to start with? Unless I am being trolled, it seems you aren’t quite aware what is typically referred to when criticizing the quality of LS) . You might need to put down the rose-tinted fanboy glasses, as they seem to be affecting your perception.

Galen Grey.4709:

bugs was something that plagued LS when it first started its true it was bad, currently though? I have yet to come across any bug in S2, thats not to say they’re not there but while I experianced issues in the first half of season 1 I have yet to come across any issue in S2.

Bugs are something that has been plaguing the entire game start-on, and given the sheer amount of manpower the LS likely necessitates, you won’t be seeing fixes to the most basic ones, let alone those that come with ‘new content’. I’m surprised you at least admit there were many of them in LS1. Now proceed to scanning profession forums for list of proff bugs alone, and you’ll realize you could write a small novel with the amount of material collected and documented by the community.

Galen Grey.4709:

Subpar plot, S1 had a good plot

Well, some people also like McDonald’s burgers … delivered piece by piece, and burnt almost crisp. To each their own, I suppose.

Galen Grey.4709:

I would argue your case scenario would actually dictate the opposite response. If a large portion of players lost their good will, LS would not provide income for Anet. [snip] A busy world is more attractive to new players then a dead one.

I did not say ‘a large portion of players’ left the game (although I am certain only the hard-cover fans still play regularly), but simply stated that LS-styled content delivery caters to those who haven’t left (yet) and aims to keeping them engaged and therefore less likely to leave (as you – surprisingly – figured out). In doing so, a LS is likely the more cost-efficient method than a full-blown expansion, which would typically have to deliver more than a LS does (unless you’re seeing expansion-wide scope of content beyond some extra new maps and a couple of new skills make its way into LS somehow).
Expansions, on the other hand, usually also attempt to win back (some of) the lost playerbase. More effort and more risk in the long term, as not many might be staying to keep gem store revenues up, not to mention it might be a significant issue, if half the expansion would consist of gem-store-only items, as appears to be the case with LS-styled content additions.

P. S. Anet have stated numerous times that forum feedback is not very representative of the entire game population, so I doubt any and all expansion-promoting threads will have an effect in that regard.

Edit: The rest will be following in 10 mins …

Vayne.8563:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

I never used Ursan. Not even sure what it was. If PI is Pain Inverter, I did use that, but not on my Mesmer.

Just saying… everyone didn’t do what maybe the majority did. =)

Did you spend a lot of time trying to get into DOA or UW groups though?

Why? I did both with hero/merc groups and didn’t “ping” a build to anyone.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

LS is nothing new.

http://eq2.zam.com/wiki/Category:EQ2_World_Events

They may share the name but they share little else with the living story. They were/are just preludes to static content that will never change. Whilst the living story is an evolving story and from one release to the other things can change drastically. The whole point of living story, is the story and its flow and effect on things. Its like saying bungee jumping is the same thing like flying in a plane because in both cases you’ll be airborne.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

700 plus

World storyline events introduced new Races, Zones, return of the deities, Guild Halls, Zones, transportation systems, Cities revamps many many more than listed.

Somehow SOE managed one expansion a year on top of these. Still does. World events are in addition to expansions, and are always “free”.

How is Anet less capable with more employees? Why are consumers so happy with so much less?

Do you really need an answer to this? Do you think it takes the same amount of work to do a story instance in Gw2 than it takes to do a quest in Eq2?

Do you think it takes the same amount of work to design a zone in the both games?

Do you think it takes the same amount of work to populate said zones in both games?

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

I honestly thought This game would incorporate as much as standard MMOs, with the unique gameplay and vision they showed they were capable of in GW. Instead of that, I see cookie cutter zerg content, recycled “innovations” and far less QOL features than games launched years ago. Don’t even get me started on the copypasted writing and characters.

That game I hoped for is still my hope, but I think another company will have to do it.

When one does, the door won’t hit me on the way out.

(edited to include the Zam comprehensive list)

How can any game incorporate standard content with unique game-play and vision. Those things are intertwined together. To have unique game-play and vision you need unique content. A different paint-job doesnt create anything unique.

Perhaps you’re seeing what you want to see, cause like people have been pointing out for quite sometime, you dont like zergs? dont join them and you will not have a zergy game play experiance.

As for recycled innovation again similar story, its like people saying dynamic events existed already in rift or Living story is not something new. If you want to see a pattern you’re going to see a pattern. Nothing can ever be so unique as to not resemble anything that came before its just not possible. But if you stop and ask, what is this content trying to achieve?, how is it achieving that goal?, what kind if experiance am I getting doing this content compared with what i think its being copied from? you’ll see its pretty unique. The Living world is giving us an ever changing world, with new content to enjoy every two weeks. The whole thing is voice acted and events actually happen they’re not simply spoken of and thats it. Did Eq2 world events do all that? nope they were just an introduct to content thats going to be released, content that will not change the world anymore ever much less every 2 weeks. Implementation and Scope are entirely different.

None of this is to say Eq2 is a bad game, played it and loved it, but this is not what they were trying to do with World events.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Vayne.8563:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

I never used Ursan. Not even sure what it was. If PI is Pain Inverter, I did use that, but not on my Mesmer.

Just saying… everyone didn’t do what maybe the majority did. =)

Did you spend a lot of time trying to get into DOA or UW groups though?

Why? I did both with hero/merc groups and didn’t “ping” a build to anyone.

I assume this was after the 7 hero upgrade. I played before that, when you could only have three heroes. I don’t believe most people could have beat DOA with 3 heroes.

Galen Grey.4709:

None of this is to say Eq2 is a bad game, played it and loved it, but this is not what they were trying to do with World events.

All i wanted for long year was an EQ2 minus raiding .. i simply hate raiding and that was the main reason i left at some point.

Now talking about EQ .. just look what SOE has done with EQNext .. afaik they have trashed already 2 times completly what they had and restartet from zero.

And things like that will also happen at ANet since it take a while to produce content and maybe they started already a year ago something that however now turned out to don’t work really good. So they can either now release it even knowing that (mostly) everyone will hate it .. or trash all the work and start something new.

Galen Grey.4709:

Crafting using materials from the bank
Researching new recipes using materials from the bank
FoV adjustment,
Temporary content -> permanent content
Dragonite ore drop increase
Champions dropping loot bags
Dungeons Rewards revamp
Ascended gear <- unfortunately
Wardrobe
Wallet
Trait system revamp
Dailies revamp a few times
Ascended gear crafting instead of daily acquisition <- unfortunately too

I can counter with things from the ‘negative’ feedback they ‘missed’:

The grand majority of proffession bugs remain unfixed 2 years in

Updates lately seem to consist mostly of toolbar fixes to give the illusion of change, or the illusion of ’we’re working on things’

Rewards underwhelming and too generic (poop loot from special encounters and champs) – ironically, the best I’ve seen of loot was in pvp (dye crafting), which has a proverbially terrible reward system, and I have two level 80 characters (which I consider to be a major pve achievement for my standards, esp given the tiresome and repetitive grind to 80)

Balance is abysmal – damage and berserker are king, mob design remains unchanged last tie I checked (mostly big blobs of hp with slow hard hitting attacks), player co-op is low or non-existant (I don’t buy the argument that LS2 suddenly became the epitome of team play)

Lack of meaningful play interaction — players are rewarded for becoming “another faceless portion of a big blob of players” rather than actually giving individuals and small groups something to strive for

The concept behind guilds, competition, and ranks in pvp have been trivialized to the point of being redundant (it is hard to believe the same company designed these features in GW)

Ascended gear – something that should not have existed to start with, given their big talk of no generic mmo gear thread mill

Lack of stylish and more realistic looking weapons – see this thread for more info: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/More-slick-and-elegant-weapon-skins-please/page/4#post4243017

Trait revamp did more good than bad, and in effect made alt levelling an even greater pita (judging from the comments); also I found the new build making system a whole lot more impractical than the last one, and I believe they still haven’t added the option to subtract points when building. Seems like another attempt to dumb the game down even further, but I might be wrong

Build templates – where are they? One of the biggest QoL ever on GW, and yet there is none on GW2 2 years in.

Too much emphasis on the gem store, too little on features available from playing the game (without sacrificing your brain cells to an endless gold grind)

Wardrobe – well, I have no interest in studying up where all my weap and armor skins disappeared to when I log in the first time after 6 months of inactivity

Recycled and unimaginative map designs in pve – everything feels the same with a slight change of colour and landscape

Support and crowd control are redundant in pve due to mob design (defiant) and also because they were designed with pvp in mind

Some professions and proff concepts are still underperforming in pve (most notably pet-, condition-, and cc-specced classes), while others can faceroll it (guardians, warriors, eles, thieves)

Restrictions imposed on build making and build changing due to the gear-build dependance

…

And these are just the first few that come to mind.

An extra: You know something is off when a pvp-focused player starts listing issues in pve (yea pvp is a joke in and off itself)

Galen Grey.4709:

As for recycled innovation again similar story, its like people saying dynamic events existed already in rift or Living story is not something new. If you want to see a pattern you’re going to see a pattern. Nothing can ever be so unique as to not resemble anything that came before its just not possible.

Firstly, the ‘dynamic’ part of the events is merely about periodic repetitions of one and the same thing on one and the same spot. Over and over again. By that definition, the sun rising and setting must be the epitome of dynamic irl. Dynamic events are nothing new because they are merely automated quests on a repeat button. If you wanna call that innovation, be my guest.

Moreover, saying nothing can be truly unique does not an argument make – it does not make it fine that things are repetitive and recycled, or that they have such an impact.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Galen Grey.4709:

As for recycled innovation again similar story, its like people saying dynamic events existed already in rift or Living story is not something new. If you want to see a pattern you’re going to see a pattern. Nothing can ever be so unique as to not resemble anything that came before its just not possible.

Firstly, the ‘dynamic’ part of the events is merely about periodic repetitions of one and the same thing on one and the same spot. Over and over again. By that definition, the sun rising and setting must be the epitome of dynamic irl. Dynamic events are nothing new because they are merely automated quests on a repeat button. If you wanna call that innovation, be my guest.

Moreover, saying nothing can be truly unique does not an argument make – it does not make it fine that things are repetitive and recycled, or that they have such an impact.

Except that some events have different pass fails to them that trigger other events. Dawn and dusk don’t have that.