Guild Wars 2

This will be a general long talk about the game’s focus on how to reward the differently commited parts of the community (casual <-> hardcore)

So please try to understand the both sides of the coin and dont bring hate on the replies.

I consider following points to be the main pillars of defining GW2’s gameplay :

No treadmill-Gearing -> Which results in players reaching the end of vertical progression very fast and thus makes it a game of horizontal progression. This is where the skins come in play.
Easy to reach LevelCap -> Which shifts the focus a of a player to be better in using his/her profession than running after infinite stats and ever higher DPS.
No Holy Trinity -> Along with not permanent builds, this encourages players to play with many alts and explore the different builds. Also enables players to clear most PvE
content Solo as each profession is capable of tanking/dps/utility.
Shared Loot and Dynamic Grouping -> Enables players to Solo content more easily, eliminates trolling and griefing in PvE and encourages grouping while making it as easy as standing near someone without even talking to him.

I can add more to this but I think you can follow where I want to point at.
GW2 is in its core a very very Solo friendly MMO, in fact I strongly believe this is why this game has such a high success.
I also believe that the core playerbase of GW2 are players who mainly Solo content but are also in a Guild and have friends in game, but use the community only to clear content which is otherwise not soloable. What I mean by this, I believe GW2 players do not play in groups If the content doesnt need it.

To add to this, as the horizontal progressive nature of the Game is dominant, that creates a “completionist” mind in the core solo playars. With other words, I believe, Achievement hunting, skin collecting, and world completion are the main goal of this veteran solo player base.

Now, If you accept that analysis I put forward about the veteran player base, the worst type of content you can add to the game is the type which awards exclusive content that not obtainable through solo/casual PUG play.

Rais for an example, I understand completely the need of having content for a hardcore minorty of the players. I am happy about it, In fact I even consider myself not casual and want to do raids myself.

But do you really need to add otherwise unobtainable content to the raids (i.e. Legendary Armor) to reward this players? Every other skin/item in the game is obtainable through gold farming. Why do I need suddenly commit myself to a hardcore 10 man content to get an armor-set? I can PUG WvW skins, I can pug PvP skins, I can Pug Dungeon skins, I can pug Fractal skins.
Why can’t I pug Raid skins?

You could reward Raid players 100 gold per Wing clear I wouldnt care. But do not reward minorities with exclusive content please.
If the Raid minority demands exclusive content, that means only that their original motivation was only to show off and not really challenging content.

Please add legendary armor to be obtainable out of Raids, and do not reward minorities withe exclusive skins/items.

PS: Raids here is just an example, that mindset should be maintained through all future content.

I agree with everything you said.

Having exclusive rewards per Gamemode is fine it shows what you did to accomplish it, now they need to make sure all Gamemodes have access to the same quality rewards, i.e. New Legendary Armor for WvW, PvP and possibly a way to craft Legendary Armor for PvE all with Different Skins so that they are distinguished by what they did. Game modes having monopolies on quality of rewards is a problem, Anet shows they are slowly fixing that issue with the latest PvP update, they just need to expand the effort

I think exclusive rewards for completing challenging content is not only acceptible, but mandatory to ensure that there is a healthy pool of players (regardless of their intentions) willing to complete the content.

Let’s be honest. There are a significant amount of people who do content specifically for the prestige rewards, specifically to show them off . You cannot blame or punish them for that attitude, because if they do not assist the playerbase that does challenging content for the sake of challenging content, they will have a harder time grouping up to do the content. I do not know to what extent grouping for raids will suffer, but it would behoove you to ensure that the players, regardless of their determination, can share a common goal.

This is Guild Wars. I think your ability to organize, lead, or adequately be part of a well-forged group should determine the complexity of the content you can complete, including raids. And I think that it’s certainly fine to have specific rewards for doing specific content a certain way. You dont need anything in this game that is prestiged to play or do well.

If there is no reward for minority, there is no minority.
If there is no minority to look up to everyone is equal.
If everyone is equal the game end up in a stand still.
If the game is in a stand still, player end up with no goal.
Players with no goal are quickly bored.
Bored player quit the game.
Eventually the game lacking in player will die out like the vast majority of the games out there.

The minority that you talk about invest time into the game, they overcome difficulties and expect to be rewarded in a way that make them outstanding. This minority have to exist and have to stand out “visually” in order to give other player a goal to achieve. You can put all the content you want as difficult as you want, if there is no reward that allow this minority to stand out, the majority won’t long to it and the minority won’t have any reason to stay on the game. In the end both the minority and the majority will leave for something else.

As someone of the majority, you to know that the minority is only here to show you that it’s possible to reach the goal. Content which is hard to obtain is a necessity for every game. It make the majority (who don’t have it) to long after it because it’s a way to show one’s own achievment in the game, a way to satisfy one’s ego. If it was easy to obtain, there would be absolutely no interest at all and you wouldn’t even open a thread about it.

As for “pug raid” and all the river of tear that it generate, this is an issue that’s brought in the game by players and only players. These players want to achieve a result and assume that they have to follow the path of the minority to do that which create the “meta”. Even when the minority show that this meta is not a necessity, the majority still cling to it because it give them a sense of safety. Your own issue with raids is probably due to how hard those players of the majority cling to this artificial safety that is the “meta”.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Having exclusive rewards per Gamemode is fine it shows what you did to accomplish it, now they need to make sure all Gamemodes have access to the same quality rewards, i.e. New Legendary Armor for WvW, PvP and possibly a way to craft Legendary Armor for PvE all with Different Skins so that they are distinguished by what they did. Game modes having monopolies on quality of rewards is a problem, Anet shows they are slowly fixing that issue with the latest PvP update, they just need to expand the effort

I agree. And granted, raiders will have a head start on legendary armor but I guess its still a long way to go until they actually release them and I wouldnt rule out that upon release of legendary armor, they may add additional ways to obtain it is well.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

I think exclusive rewards for completing challenging content is not only acceptible, but mandatory to ensure that there is a healthy pool of players (regardless of their intentions) willing to complete the content.

Let’s be honest. There are a significant amount of people who do content specifically for the prestige rewards, specifically to show them off . You cannot blame or punish them for that attitude, because if they do not assist the playerbase that does challenging content for the sake of challenging content, they will have a harder time grouping up to do the content. I do not know to what extent grouping for raids will suffer, but it would behoove you to ensure that the players, regardless of their determination, can share a common goal.

This is Guild Wars. I think your ability to organize, lead, or adequately be part of a well-forged group should determine the complexity of the content you can complete, including raids. And I think that it’s certainly fine to have specific rewards for doing specific content a certain way. You dont need anything in this game that is prestiged to play or do well.

I can blame them. Egos are silly things and so easily damaged. :P

But, I don’t fault the game for having unique rewards based on game modes. I feel it should be encouraged. It’s healthy for a game as broad as an MMO.
One caveat, I don’t want to see time-limited awards, except perhaps for titles. Having assets that are only attainable at one very specific event isn’t good for retaining those assets. Less people will use them as attrition continues, and newer players will never have a chance at them. It’s a waste of those assets.
On that note, holographic/shattered wings. Make ’em gliders and re-release ’em!

Raids are not the only conctent that have excluxive items linked to it which is quite obvious so i presume that was just badly worded on your part.

One of the strongest reasons for linking specific rewards to specific content is to incentivize players to do that content and rewarding them with something apart from just currency.

The problem with just beeing able to buy everithing by doing everything you want to in the game is that there always is a most efficient way to get currency, at the moment it’s obviously auric basin.
And since many players, regardless of if they play solo or in groups, try to work towards their goals as efficiently as possible, which results in them feeling forced to run that most rewarding content and reduces the ammount fo players in other parts of the game. The other problem is that running the same thing over and over speeds up peoples burnout on guild wars.

And you can pug raids, i’m not saying its pleasant because the nature of the content requires coordination, but you can

Your same argument can be applied to WvW, PvP, and Fractals. It doesn’t make sense that for something that’s designed to be the hardest content in the game, they aren’t allowed to have any story or exclusive skins.

Dadnir.5038:

If there is no reward for minority, there is no minority.
If there is no minority to look up to everyone is equal.
If everyone is equal the game end up in a stand still.
If the game is in a stand still, player end up with no goal.
Players with no goal are quickly bored.
Bored player quit the game.
Eventually the game lacking in player will die out like the vast majority of the games out there.

Well, not really. Look;
I do not need to see another player and say cool, I want his armor. Every skin in the game is listed in the wardrobe. Every achievement in the game is listen in the Hero Panel.
In extreme terms GW2 is nothing more than a Single Player game with a very very extensive amount of content you can collect, in a world shared with other players.
It is like playing All assasins creed games and collecting all the collectibles to reach 100% completion.
That should be your goal, not the “I want to have an armor just for myself”

The Game needs to decide in which direction it is going. Until now, Guild wars 2 succeeded in containing a healthy competitive motivation.
Motivation was the competition itself. You played PvP for the sake of fighting with other players. Not to get skins so you can show off.

At the time competition becomes “having more exclusives others cant get to show off”. You will basically turn down all the new players. If the casual player base gets the feeeling no matter how much time they invest, if they cant get some specific things, they will stop caring.

Maybe I am way too completionist minded.

Revilrad.1962:

Dadnir.5038:

If there is no reward for minority, there is no minority.
If there is no minority to look up to everyone is equal.
If everyone is equal the game end up in a stand still.
If the game is in a stand still, player end up with no goal.
Players with no goal are quickly bored.
Bored player quit the game.
Eventually the game lacking in player will die out like the vast majority of the games out there.

Well, not really. Look;
I do not need to see another player and say cool, I want his armor. Every skin in the game is listed in the wardrobe. Every achievement in the game is listen in the Hero Panel.
In extreme terms GW2 is nothing more than a Single Player game with a very very extensive amount of content you can collect, in a world shared with other players.
It is like playing All assasins creed games and collecting all the collectibles to reach 100% completion.
That should be your goal, not the “I want to have an armor just for myself”

The Game needs to decide in which direction it is going. Until now, Guild wars 2 succeeded in containing a healthy competitive motivation.
Motivation was the competition itself. You played PvP for the sake of fighting with other players. Not to get skins so you can show off.

At the time competition becomes “having more exclusives others cant get to show off”. You will basically turn down all the new players. If the casual player base gets the feeeling no matter how much time they invest, if they cant get some specific things, they will stop caring.

Maybe I am way too completionist minded.

The Game since Launch in 2012 has always had Exlusive skins behind All Game Modes that you cannot get anywhere else……

Not every Skin is Listed in the Wardrobe unless you already own the skin.

Exclusives promote a healthy reason to try different game modes.

And if players are conpletionist minded then be should be fine with and familiar with all Gamemodes since there are exclusives behind all Gamemodes both skins and achievements, if they are an actual completion it’s they don’t get to pick and choose what they deem counts for being a completionist since it means doing/getting everything which means doing everything the game offers, which negates the whole exclusive skins argument since you would need to complete all content to be a completionist….

I agree with each game mode needs its own rewards and I am okay with that. What i am not okay with is Legendary Armor just being in Raids. I would like to hope that in the future they have a set for WvW and PvP and hopefully another set for the rest of PvE. I also agree you need to put work into these very nice rewards, but it would be nice to have something for the people that can’t get to a certain degree of skill but can still work towards slowly and over time.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Revilrad.1962:

Dadnir.5038:

If there is no reward for minority, there is no minority.
If there is no minority to look up to everyone is equal.
If everyone is equal the game end up in a stand still.
If the game is in a stand still, player end up with no goal.
Players with no goal are quickly bored.
Bored player quit the game.
Eventually the game lacking in player will die out like the vast majority of the games out there.

Well, not really. Look;
I do not need to see another player and say cool, I want his armor. Every skin in the game is listed in the wardrobe. Every achievement in the game is listen in the Hero Panel.
In extreme terms GW2 is nothing more than a Single Player game with a very very extensive amount of content you can collect, in a world shared with other players.
It is like playing All assasins creed games and collecting all the collectibles to reach 100% completion.
That should be your goal, not the “I want to have an armor just for myself”

The Game needs to decide in which direction it is going. Until now, Guild wars 2 succeeded in containing a healthy competitive motivation.
Motivation was the competition itself. You played PvP for the sake of fighting with other players. Not to get skins so you can show off.

At the time competition becomes “having more exclusives others cant get to show off”. You will basically turn down all the new players. If the casual player base gets the feeeling no matter how much time they invest, if they cant get some specific things, they will stop caring.

Maybe I am way too completionist minded.

The Game since Launch in 2012 has always had Exlusive skins behind All Game Modes that you cannot get anywhere else……

Not every Skin is Listed in the Wardrobe unless you already own the skin.

Exclusives promote a healthy reason to try different game modes.

And if players are conpletionist minded then be should be fine with and familiar with all Gamemodes since there are exclusives behind all Gamemodes both skins and achievements, if they are an actual completion it’s they don’t get to pick and choose what they deem counts for being a completionist since it means doing/getting everything which means doing everything the game offers, which negates the whole exclusive skins argument since you would need to complete all content to be a completionist….

Yes but all the Gamemodes besides Raids can be completed without changing the principals I explained in my OP.
PvP -> PUG/Solo Cue OK
WvW -> PUG/Solo OK
Dungeons -> PUG OK
Fractals -> PUG OK
PvE World -> PUG/Solo OK

Raids -> Needs commited 10 Men to form a almost job like relationship to clear.

Raids alone stand against to all the other content in the way it is designed.
also PUGable or Soloable doesnt mean “Easy” in my wording.
Doing Master rank fractals is hard. But I can Watch some videos and go and PUG it.

With RAIDs that is not possible. Not because it is hard but becasue it demands time and coordination of whopping 10 people.

Wooden Potatoes did a very good explanation of this why Raids are misimplemented.

And Adding exclusive Skins, Armor, AP and even masteries to such content is wrong IMO. Just remove the exclusive part then it is good to go. Add the legendary armor to out of raids and problem solved. Or make the Raids 5 men content and leave it as hard it is.

Revilrad.1962:

In extreme terms GW2 is nothing more than a Single Player game with a very very extensive amount of content you can collect, in a world shared with other players.

It is like playing All assasins creed games and collecting all the collectibles to reach 100% completion.

First point: No it isn’t. This game is geared specifically toward working with others to achieve objectives in all the major game spheres. It’s not at all like Assassin’s creed. You can certainly play it solo, or with the mentality that you are solo; but that doesn’t affect the fact that the mechanics are built around grouping up to do content.

While I understand that the endgame rewards require an incredible amount of objectives to obtain, at some point you need to step back and either accept that the game is so vast that unless you play around the clock there will be some things you don’t get, or focus on getting everything eventually.

Leave the exclusives where they are. They encourage people that like certain content to continue to play it, or draw people who otherwise may not even give that content a chance to at least try it.

Raids were deveoped as a specific answer to players that wanted difficult content that forced cohesion and pushed limits. To implement that without a goal to work towards to show that you can consistently do that content seems half baked.

I understand that building a ten man group may be off putting to some, but there are people on the otherside that despise pugs and easily achievable skins/items, and they’re back here now because raids filled that lack they had. Instead of asking the skill ceiling to step down, I would encourage you to step up to the challenge of organizing that setup yourself.

Revilrad.1962:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Revilrad.1962:

Dadnir.5038:

If there is no reward for minority, there is no minority.
If there is no minority to look up to everyone is equal.
If everyone is equal the game end up in a stand still.
If the game is in a stand still, player end up with no goal.
Players with no goal are quickly bored.
Bored player quit the game.
Eventually the game lacking in player will die out like the vast majority of the games out there.

Well, not really. Look;
I do not need to see another player and say cool, I want his armor. Every skin in the game is listed in the wardrobe. Every achievement in the game is listen in the Hero Panel.
In extreme terms GW2 is nothing more than a Single Player game with a very very extensive amount of content you can collect, in a world shared with other players.
It is like playing All assasins creed games and collecting all the collectibles to reach 100% completion.
That should be your goal, not the “I want to have an armor just for myself”

The Game needs to decide in which direction it is going. Until now, Guild wars 2 succeeded in containing a healthy competitive motivation.
Motivation was the competition itself. You played PvP for the sake of fighting with other players. Not to get skins so you can show off.

At the time competition becomes “having more exclusives others cant get to show off”. You will basically turn down all the new players. If the casual player base gets the feeeling no matter how much time they invest, if they cant get some specific things, they will stop caring.

Maybe I am way too completionist minded.

The Game since Launch in 2012 has always had Exlusive skins behind All Game Modes that you cannot get anywhere else……

Not every Skin is Listed in the Wardrobe unless you already own the skin.

Exclusives promote a healthy reason to try different game modes.

And if players are conpletionist minded then be should be fine with and familiar with all Gamemodes since there are exclusives behind all Gamemodes both skins and achievements, if they are an actual completion it’s they don’t get to pick and choose what they deem counts for being a completionist since it means doing/getting everything which means doing everything the game offers, which negates the whole exclusive skins argument since you would need to complete all content to be a completionist….

Yes but all the Gamemodes besides Raids can be completed without changing the principals I explained in my OP.
PvP -> PUG/Solo Cue OK
WvW -> PUG/Solo OK
Dungeons -> PUG OK
Fractals -> PUG OK
PvE World -> PUG/Solo OK

Raids -> Needs commited 10 Men to form a almost job like relationship to clear.

Raids alone stand against to all the other content in the way it is designed.
also PUGable or Soloable doesnt mean “Easy” in my wording.
Doing Master rank fractals is hard. But I can Watch some videos and go and PUG it.

With RAIDs that is not possible. Not because it is hard but becasue it demands time and coordination of whopping 10 people.

Wooden Potatoes did a very good explanation of this why Raids are misimplemented.

And Adding exclusive Skins, Armor, AP and even masteries to such content is wrong IMO. Just remove the exclusive part then it is good to go. Add the legendary armor to out of raids and problem solved. Or make the Raids 5 men content and leave it as hard it is.

Raids are highly PuGable look in the LFG, and the Main Raiding community keeps increasing the Accessibility/PuGability of Raids by constantly updating Guides and Strategies per Boss going very in depth to help as much as possible.

And as I stated in the earlier posts every game mode should have access to their own unique Legendary Armor.

You say Leave Raids as hard as they are and make it 5 man content boy do I have news for you, those statements completely contradict each other and for one, every boss has been low manned some as low as 3 people beating the boss….

I disagree with the very premise of the OP. We are not all created equal, but ANET gives us equal opportunities to complete the content. Failure to do so is our issue regardless if it is real life, insufficient skill or any other of a myriad of excuses.

Otherwise have a special little snowflake slide bar that everyone can set for themselves. That slide bar will indicate the level of difficulty the individual user wants in order to acquire things in the game. The low setting is “Push one button, give me everything” to what it is now.

I agree that ANet should be more careful about which rewards they offer for challenging content, but I think they should continue to offer exclusive rewards for exclusive content.

The game has always offered exclusive rewards to those willing to engage in certain activities. There are skins exclusive to PvP, WvW, and PvE. There are minis available for PvP or PvE achievement. Legendaries require some commitment to WvW & PvE (although you can mostly ignore PvP, at least for now).

Similarly there are skins unique to Fractals, to Dungeons (or their reward tracks), from the new zones (or their reward tracks), and so on.

The single exception is that, as of now, Legendary Armor is only available with a certain amount of raiding. I agree that’s a weird choice by ANet: it’s great that challenging content has a unique reward, but why make it something that is more than just a skin?

However, that’s a far cry from “avoiding exclusive content to reward minorities” — that represents a massive change to how the game currently rewards us. Worse, I think it would be horrid for the community, as it would diminish the sense of accomplishment one feels.

So sure, ANet should be more careful about which rewards they offer for challenging content, but they shouldn’t stop offering exclusive rewards based on the content.

No vertical progression is why I limit my time in this game. I clear the raids, keep my placing in pvp, but other pve and wvw content there’s no point to playing.

Blockhead Magee.3092:

I disagree with the very premise of the OP. We are not all created equal, but ANET gives us equal opportunities to complete the content. Failure to do so is our issue regardless if it is real life, insufficient skill or any other of a myriad of excuses.

Otherwise have a special little snowflake slide bar that everyone can set for themselves. That slide bar will indicate the level of difficulty the individual user wants in order to acquire things in the game. The low setting is “Push one button, give me everything” to what it is now.

I completely disagree,
see being able to clear Raids do not indicate that you are a good player at all.
Someone who is very very good at PvP or master Rank Fractals know their profession at least as good as someone who raids.

In fact I consider Raids nothing more than memorizing patterns and copy/pasting a build from metabattle and buying food.
If you consider that hard content Ill leave you that.

And I never said I want press F to get skins.
What I want is that skins and APs are not blocked behind walls which has nothing to do with hardness of the content.

Raids are not harder than other high end content, they are just inaccessable.

Revilrad.1962:

Blockhead Magee.3092:

I disagree with the very premise of the OP. We are not all created equal, but ANET gives us equal opportunities to complete the content. Failure to do so is our issue regardless if it is real life, insufficient skill or any other of a myriad of excuses.

Otherwise have a special little snowflake slide bar that everyone can set for themselves. That slide bar will indicate the level of difficulty the individual user wants in order to acquire things in the game. The low setting is “Push one button, give me everything” to what it is now.

I completely disagree,
see being able to clear Raids do not indicate that you are a good player at all.
Someone who is very very good at PvP or master Rank Fractals know their profession at least as good as someone who raids.

In fact I consider Raids nothing more than memorizing patterns and copy/pasting a build from metabattle and buying food.
If you consider that hard content Ill leave you that.

And I never said I want press F to get skins.
What I want is that skins and APs are not blocked behind walls which has nothing to do with hardness of the content.

Raids are not harder than other high end content, they are just inaccessable.

How are raids inaccessible? The Raid community posts Guides on how to do every boss, guides on what the easiest strategy/comp is for every boss, there are raid training Guilds/groups to help inexperienced players get experience at raids , no gear gate stopping you from completing like High level Fractals, PuGs full Clear raids every week.

The only inaccessibility is on the individual making excuses on why they can’t raid.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Revilrad.1962:

Blockhead Magee.3092:

I disagree with the very premise of the OP. We are not all created equal, but ANET gives us equal opportunities to complete the content. Failure to do so is our issue regardless if it is real life, insufficient skill or any other of a myriad of excuses.

Otherwise have a special little snowflake slide bar that everyone can set for themselves. That slide bar will indicate the level of difficulty the individual user wants in order to acquire things in the game. The low setting is “Push one button, give me everything” to what it is now.

I completely disagree,
see being able to clear Raids do not indicate that you are a good player at all.
Someone who is very very good at PvP or master Rank Fractals know their profession at least as good as someone who raids.

In fact I consider Raids nothing more than memorizing patterns and copy/pasting a build from metabattle and buying food.
If you consider that hard content Ill leave you that.

And I never said I want press F to get skins.
What I want is that skins and APs are not blocked behind walls which has nothing to do with hardness of the content.

Raids are not harder than other high end content, they are just inaccessable.

How are raids inaccessible? The Raid community posts Guides on how to do every boss, guides on what the easiest strategy/comp is for every boss, there are raid training Guilds/groups to help inexperienced players get experience at raids , no gear gate stopping you from completing like High level Fractals, PuGs full Clear raids every week.

The only inaccessibility is on the individual making excuses on why they can’t raid.

+1. Raids are definitely not inaccessible. There are a multitude of in-depth boss guides on YouTube and Dulfy. There are tons of raid class guides on YouTube, Reddit, metabattle, qT’s site, etc. There are several guilds devoted to training runs, teaching people the mechanics of the fight, the optimal builds to use on your class, etc. There are training runs advertised in LFG for random pugs to join on a regular basis. There are plenty of resources for a casual gamer to take advantage of to break into raiding.

As for the desire to discontinue raid-exclusive rewards: no. I love that there are items exclusive to a game mode; that these items are linked to hard work, prestige, etc. I put in a lot of time and effort to complete my pre-legendary collection (as complete as it can be with missing steps in Tier II for the present moment) and stockpile all the mats needed. Raids aren’t the only mode with exclusive items. Take the Ascension PvP backpack, for example. I like the current setup and see zero reason to change it.

You can get your PvP backpack by having a ratio of 120 wins to 1200 losses in 5 seasons by absolving in nothing other than bronze.
You can get your dungeon Skins by PvP reward tracks or doing the easiest paths over and over again. You can ake a LFG yourself with “noobs welcome” and clear ARAH in 1,5 hours instead of a pro group in 30 min.
You can train yourself to fractals as it introduces you slowly to the difficulty of the content. AR is the only limit and it is just a lazy farm of infusions.
You can watch Walking Dead as you mindlessly zerg around in WvW to get badges of honor.

LFG for raids atm :
Full clear multiclass 150 Li
[US]Selling any raid boss <- lol
LF1dh/necro 150 LI+
VG 50LI+ Eternal

Why in gods name put a very very important item like legendary armor in such a toxic playmode in its core?

Having more time in hand to play or lucky to be in a Raid guild or have friends who play GW2 should not be the reason for rewarding players or punishing others.

Why not? Becaue rest of the game is like that.

Revilrad.1962:

You can get your PvP backpack by having a ratio of 120 wins to 1200 losses in 5 seasons by absolving in nothing other than bronze.
You can get your dungeon Skins by PvP reward tracks or doing the easiest paths over and over again. You can ake a LFG yourself with “noobs welcome” and clear ARAH in 1,5 hours instead of a pro group in 30 min.
You can train yourself to fractals as it introduces you slowly to the difficulty of the content. AR is the only limit and it is just a lazy farm of infusions.
You can watch Walking Dead as you mindlessly zerg around in WvW to get badges of honor.

LFG for raids atm :
Full clear multiclass 150 Li
[US]Selling any raid boss <- lol
LF1dh/necro 150 LI+
VG 50LI+ Eternal

Why in gods name put a very very important item like legendary armor in such a toxic playmode in its core?

Raids are less Toxic than dungeons were.
Those aren’t toxic posts those are people wanting experienced players to attempt a smooth run nothing more. You just looked at LFG outside of Primetime near the end of the week in most Timezones so the small amount of LFG is normal.

Revilrad.1962:

You can get your PvP backpack by having a ratio of 120 wins to 1200 losses in 5 seasons by absolving in nothing other than bronze.
You can get your dungeon Skins by PvP reward tracks or doing the easiest paths over and over again. You can ake a LFG yourself with “noobs welcome” and clear ARAH in 1,5 hours instead of a pro group in 30 min.
You can train yourself to fractals as it introduces you slowly to the difficulty of the content. AR is the only limit and it is just a lazy farm of infusions.
You can watch Walking Dead as you mindlessly zerg around in WvW to get badges of honor.

LFG for raids atm :
Full clear multiclass 150 Li
[US]Selling any raid boss <- lol
LF1dh/necro 150 LI+
VG 50LI+ Eternal

Why in gods name put a very very important item like legendary armor in such a toxic playmode in its core?

I’ll quote myself :

As for “pug raid” and all the river of tear that it generate, this is an issue that’s brought in the game by players and only players. These players want to achieve a result and assume that they have to follow the path of the minority to do that which create the “meta”. Even when the minority show that this meta is not a necessity, the majority still cling to it because it give them a sense of safety. Your own issue with raids is probably due to how hard those players of the majority cling to this artificial safety that is the “meta”.

Honnestly you can’t rant about flaw in a game when it’s players mentality that is at fault. Like other said, there is a whole community that dedicate itself to open raid to people that are not already experienced. You just have to take the opportunities and ignore the group that fear to stray out of the meta.

NB.: I am not an elitist and I didn’t even try to give any time to raids. Simply put raids have to many design flaw in themself for me to really consider investing time in them. Beside, I could careless about legendary armor. I know that whatever I’ll do I’ll be disappointed by the armor design. ( Optimus prime as a heavy armor… what a joke!)

Everything that you said also applies to my side of the “coin”. I have friends that have 7 or more legendaries, with 4 or more characters with 100% of the map, forge is a mini-game for them, they enjoy meta from maps such as Auric Basin and all other things like that, but i don’t. I’m a player that exclusively play the end-game PvE content, and one that hates with all might any sort of farm, and i’ve only ever done farming to get 1 set of ascended, all my other 5 ascended sets is through raids and fractals drops. I will never get my hands on a legendary, you know why? cause i’m lazy when it comes downs to farm, including the Legendary Armor, that i stopped as soon as i realized that farm was necessary in the second part. If you want to be able to get the Legendary Armor through gold farming like you can get the Legendary Weapons, then Legendary Weapons should be obtainable via raids. But, although it is an interesting idea, i like that there’s things that’s only obtainable in a unique way, i don’t play WvW or PvP, The Ascension is some sort of trophy that you worked hard in PvP, The Unclean title is that you managed to get through the Nightmare Fractal Challenge Mote, and etc… So i don’t think there’s anything wrong.

I am okay with raids having their own unique legendary armor. However I do not like that raids are the only way to acquire any kind of legendary armor. Hopefully they do what many of us hope and add legendary armor to other parts of the game; I don’t care how difficult it is to get but I’d like the options

Legendary armor is locked behind raids because that’s what raiding is known for. The only difference is that ArenaNet couldn’t offer vertical progression. Behind the scenes, it’s all about participation. If something doesn’t make the cut, they’ll simply abandon it. For now, legendary armor is the incentive to raiding, which is needed to bring in participation to justify further development. I wouldn’t count on seeing it anywhere else until the 3rd or 4th expansion, except maybe SPvP where it may be the esport tournament reward.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Revilrad.1962:

You can get your PvP backpack by having a ratio of 120 wins to 1200 losses in 5 seasons by absolving in nothing other than bronze.
You can get your dungeon Skins by PvP reward tracks or doing the easiest paths over and over again. You can ake a LFG yourself with “noobs welcome” and clear ARAH in 1,5 hours instead of a pro group in 30 min.
You can train yourself to fractals as it introduces you slowly to the difficulty of the content. AR is the only limit and it is just a lazy farm of infusions.
You can watch Walking Dead as you mindlessly zerg around in WvW to get badges of honor.

LFG for raids atm :
Full clear multiclass 150 Li
[US]Selling any raid boss <- lol
LF1dh/necro 150 LI+
VG 50LI+ Eternal

Why in gods name put a very very important item like legendary armor in such a toxic playmode in its core?

Raids are less Toxic than dungeons were.
Those aren’t toxic posts those are people wanting experienced players to attempt a smooth run nothing more. You just looked at LFG outside of Primetime near the end of the week in most Timezones so the small amount of LFG is normal.

No they were not you could make play how you want all welcome group and clear dungeons, You cant do that with raids.

Just becouse people saw 1 war 1 mesmer 3 elem berserk food speed clear groups in dungeons dont make them toxic, just pop up your p3 and it would fill most likely faster.

Saw a t4 fractal group the other night that said something read Qtf builds only.
Put up t4 dailys and when I was done with my run the same 3 ppl was still looking for Qtf builds only.

I just chuckled and continued on my way.

Linken.6345:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Revilrad.1962:

You can get your PvP backpack by having a ratio of 120 wins to 1200 losses in 5 seasons by absolving in nothing other than bronze.
You can get your dungeon Skins by PvP reward tracks or doing the easiest paths over and over again. You can ake a LFG yourself with “noobs welcome” and clear ARAH in 1,5 hours instead of a pro group in 30 min.
You can train yourself to fractals as it introduces you slowly to the difficulty of the content. AR is the only limit and it is just a lazy farm of infusions.
You can watch Walking Dead as you mindlessly zerg around in WvW to get badges of honor.

LFG for raids atm :
Full clear multiclass 150 Li
[US]Selling any raid boss <- lol
LF1dh/necro 150 LI+
VG 50LI+ Eternal

Why in gods name put a very very important item like legendary armor in such a toxic playmode in its core?

Raids are less Toxic than dungeons were.
Those aren’t toxic posts those are people wanting experienced players to attempt a smooth run nothing more. You just looked at LFG outside of Primetime near the end of the week in most Timezones so the small amount of LFG is normal.

No they were not you could make play how you want all welcome group and clear dungeons, You cant do that with raids.

Just becouse people saw 1 war 1 mesmer 3 elem berserk food speed clear groups in dungeons dont make them toxic, just pop up your p3 and it would fill most likely faster.

Saw a t4 fractal group the other night that said something read Qtf builds only.
Put up t4 dailys and when I was done with my run the same 3 ppl was still looking for Qtf builds only.

I just chuckled and continued on my way.

Hmm after a simple search how your memory must be very selective and there are a lot more posts about the Toxic dungeons and Fractals.

I think its ok for raids to have exclusive skins. But I don’t think it’s ok for raids to be the only way of obtaining legendary armor. Let the raiders have that exclusive skin for legendary armor, but make another set of legendary armor with a different skin obtainable for other players. Wvw definitely needs a set of legendary armor. Having the ability to swap stats on armor is more important than it is in any other mode of the game. As a Wvw player i could care less about all the flashy effects on armor, and i have no desire to ever do any boring pve content in order to get something that would benefit me greatly for my preferred game mode. Just give us a different skin, but the same functionality of legendary armor in other game modes. All 3 game modes should have a way of obtaining legendary armor. Just give each set a different look depending on which game mode it comes from, that way everyone is happy, and no one is forced to play in a game mode they despise just for something that would help them in the game mode they like to play.

I like the idea of specific rewards tied to specific content, but only if enough can be produced to prevent a feeling of reward drought for the various types of content.

Thats the rub though. Rewards produced for general access apply, at least in theory, to all players. Rewards for specific cont apply only to a portion of the player base. So, to have content exclusive rewards while trying to reward all players, more rewards must be produced. Expensive.

Revilrad.1962:

But do you really need to add otherwise unobtainable content to the raids (i.e. Legendary Armor) to reward this players? Every other skin/item in the game is obtainable through gold farming.

What? This is actually one of the worse parts of GW2. Because of that sole reason things like Auric Basin Multi Loot is a thing and players will always farm the most efficent content that results in gold (Which is just so boring!). It also means that you can simply buy everything with real money which makes every reward in the game so meaningless.

Revilrad.1962:

LFG for raids atm :
Full clear multiclass 150 Li
[US]Selling any raid boss <- lol
LF1dh/necro 150 LI+
VG 50LI+ Eternal

Why in gods name put a very very important item like legendary armor in such a toxic playmode in its core?

LFG for Raids atm:
LFM exp Sloth
LF1M Druid Exp
Selling raids
Selling Raids
LFM Xera 100+LI
1Condi VG
Gors Exp looking for 2chrono

Look at that only one asking for LI, maybe it’s not the entire raid community that is acting in a manner that you deem to be ‘toxic’. If you look a little longer and a little more often you will find most groups are very flexible with the ‘requirements’.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Having exclusive rewards per Gamemode is fine it shows what you did to accomplish it, now they need to make sure all Gamemodes have access to the same quality rewards, i.e. New Legendary Armor for WvW, PvP and possibly a way to craft Legendary Armor for PvE all with Different Skins so that they are distinguished by what they did. Game modes having monopolies on quality of rewards is a problem, Anet shows they are slowly fixing that issue with the latest PvP update, they just need to expand the effort

That’s a simple solution. Or, just have a way of upgrading any armor to Legendary stats, so you can have the stats, but not the “show-off-ness” that the raid players desperately crave for some reason.

Gwaihir.1745:

No vertical progression is why I limit my time in this game. I clear the raids, keep my placing in pvp, but other pve and wvw content there’s no point to playing.

That’s the reason I play this game to start with and keep with it. It’s not a WoW clone, nor should it be.

ANets’ biggest problem, imo, is that it cannot produce sufficient high-tier rewards fast enough to keep the myriad demographics in the player base happy. The MMO business model requires that the developer keep players playing. Players keep playing to pursue rewards. However, players also have preferences as to what types of content they prefer to play.

ANet uses specific-content-tied rewards to add incentive for players who prefer not to to play that specific content. They do this because they cannot produce new stuff to do and new rewards to fuel the repetition necessary to the business model fast enough. The idea that players will attempt content they dislike (or despise) if they want the reward works in some cases. However, it fails in others. If a given player encounters enough such circumstances to break the camel’s back, as it were, they drop the game. I’d wager that every specific-content tied reward PO’s someone enough that they drop the game. How many, though? No clue.

Dropping revenue numbers are almost certainly due to a lot of factors. I believe, though, that rewards tied to despised content is one of them, especially when it’s the game’s ultimate carrot.

The only skins exclusive to raids should be the ones associated with the bosses themselves. Things like that half set of White Mantle weapons are just not acceptable, those should have been rewards in Bloodstone Fen.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Raids are less Toxic than dungeons were

No they aren’t. Raids are the toxic “DPS uber alles” meta of dungeons given an entire game mode, where you need optimal builds in order to win at all. Any 5 idiots can beat a dungeon bringing virtually anything, and the dungeon meta was just about beating it quicker.

AmaneSaiko.3417:

Revilrad.1962:

LFG for raids atm :
Full clear multiclass 150 Li
[US]Selling any raid boss <- lol
LF1dh/necro 150 LI+
VG 50LI+ Eternal

Why in gods name put a very very important item like legendary armor in such a toxic playmode in its core?

LFG for Raids atm:
LFM exp Sloth
LF1M Druid Exp
Selling raids
Selling Raids
LFM Xera 100+LI
1Condi VG
Gors Exp looking for 2chrono

Look at that only one asking for LI, maybe it’s not the entire raid community that is acting in a manner that you deem to be ‘toxic’. If you look a little longer and a little more often you will find most groups are very flexible with the ‘requirements’.

Your “evidence” of non-toxicity is no more valid than his “evidence” of toxicity.

Gryphon.2875:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Having exclusive rewards per Gamemode is fine it shows what you did to accomplish it, now they need to make sure all Gamemodes have access to the same quality rewards, i.e. New Legendary Armor for WvW, PvP and possibly a way to craft Legendary Armor for PvE all with Different Skins so that they are distinguished by what they did. Game modes having monopolies on quality of rewards is a problem, Anet shows they are slowly fixing that issue with the latest PvP update, they just need to expand the effort

That’s a simple solution. Or, just have a way of upgrading any armor to Legendary stats, so you can have the stats, but not the “show-off-ness” that the raid players desperately crave for some reason.

Gwaihir.1745:

No vertical progression is why I limit my time in this game. I clear the raids, keep my placing in pvp, but other pve and wvw content there’s no point to playing.

That’s the reason I play this game to start with and keep with it. It’s not a WoW clone, nor should it be.

By Legendary stats you mean Ascended Armor ? Since they are the exact same stats.

I think they mean the stat switching ability

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Gryphon.2875:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Having exclusive rewards per Gamemode is fine it shows what you did to accomplish it, now they need to make sure all Gamemodes have access to the same quality rewards, i.e. New Legendary Armor for WvW, PvP and possibly a way to craft Legendary Armor for PvE all with Different Skins so that they are distinguished by what they did. Game modes having monopolies on quality of rewards is a problem, Anet shows they are slowly fixing that issue with the latest PvP update, they just need to expand the effort

That’s a simple solution. Or, just have a way of upgrading any armor to Legendary stats, so you can have the stats, but not the “show-off-ness” that the raid players desperately crave for some reason.

Gwaihir.1745:

No vertical progression is why I limit my time in this game. I clear the raids, keep my placing in pvp, but other pve and wvw content there’s no point to playing.

That’s the reason I play this game to start with and keep with it. It’s not a WoW clone, nor should it be.

By Legendary stats you mean Ascended Armor ? Since they are the exact same stats.

Linken.6345:

I think they mean the stat switching ability

Yes, have a PvE track that finishes with a way to upgrade any armor to Legendary Quality, whatever that brings.

I’d say make non-Raid PvE Legendary set in addition to the raid one, so that people can have both, or one or the other, but Anet hates making armor sets, so…

Gryphon.2875:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Gryphon.2875:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Having exclusive rewards per Gamemode is fine it shows what you did to accomplish it, now they need to make sure all Gamemodes have access to the same quality rewards, i.e. New Legendary Armor for WvW, PvP and possibly a way to craft Legendary Armor for PvE all with Different Skins so that they are distinguished by what they did. Game modes having monopolies on quality of rewards is a problem, Anet shows they are slowly fixing that issue with the latest PvP update, they just need to expand the effort

That’s a simple solution. Or, just have a way of upgrading any armor to Legendary stats, so you can have the stats, but not the “show-off-ness” that the raid players desperately crave for some reason.

Gwaihir.1745:

No vertical progression is why I limit my time in this game. I clear the raids, keep my placing in pvp, but other pve and wvw content there’s no point to playing.

That’s the reason I play this game to start with and keep with it. It’s not a WoW clone, nor should it be.

By Legendary stats you mean Ascended Armor ? Since they are the exact same stats.

Linken.6345:

I think they mean the stat switching ability

Yes, have a PvE track that finishes with a way to upgrade any armor to Legendary Quality, whatever that brings.

I’d say make non-Raid PvE Legendary set in addition to the raid one, so that people can have both, or one or the other, but Anet hates making armor sets, so…

They wouldnt even have to make a new set. Ask anyone that plays wvw seriously. We really couldn’t care less how it looks. Give it the same skin as the exotic wvw armor you can buy for badges. We just want it for the stat swapping utility. Let the raiders keep their fancy transforming armor. Just add something for proofs of heroics+badges and make it look generic but have stat swapping functionality. I hate pve and have no desire to do it for something that would be hugely beneficial for wvw. Its bad enough wvw players are forced to do pve for guild upgrades for wvw.

I’m sure pvers wouldn’t enjoy it if they were forced to complete all 4 maps in wvw for each raid armor piece or something as similarly stupid. no player should be forced to play a mode they despise for rewards that would be useful in another mode.

Also, so pvers cant whine about it, make a way for them to get gift of battle without doing wvw. They don’t want to be there, we dont want them there taking up queue space and afking in spawn or feeding enemies kills running around in their pve builds and getting stomped, giving the other team points. And in exchange, give us our own unique legendary armor without having to ever do pve. I’d say its a fair compromise.

Neural.1824:

AmaneSaiko.3417:

Revilrad.1962:

LFG for raids atm :
Full clear multiclass 150 Li
[US]Selling any raid boss <- lol
LF1dh/necro 150 LI+
VG 50LI+ Eternal

Why in gods name put a very very important item like legendary armor in such a toxic playmode in its core?

LFG for Raids atm:
LFM exp Sloth
LF1M Druid Exp
Selling raids
Selling Raids
LFM Xera 100+LI
1Condi VG
Gors Exp looking for 2chrono

Look at that only one asking for LI, maybe it’s not the entire raid community that is acting in a manner that you deem to be ‘toxic’. If you look a little longer and a little more often you will find most groups are very flexible with the ‘requirements’.

Your “evidence” of non-toxicity is no more valid than his “evidence” of toxicity.

That’s my exact point really. Depends on when you look at LFG, it’s all perceptions.

Nikkinella.8254:

Gryphon.2875:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Gryphon.2875:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Having exclusive rewards per Gamemode is fine it shows what you did to accomplish it, now they need to make sure all Gamemodes have access to the same quality rewards, i.e. New Legendary Armor for WvW, PvP and possibly a way to craft Legendary Armor for PvE all with Different Skins so that they are distinguished by what they did. Game modes having monopolies on quality of rewards is a problem, Anet shows they are slowly fixing that issue with the latest PvP update, they just need to expand the effort

That’s a simple solution. Or, just have a way of upgrading any armor to Legendary stats, so you can have the stats, but not the “show-off-ness” that the raid players desperately crave for some reason.

Gwaihir.1745:

No vertical progression is why I limit my time in this game. I clear the raids, keep my placing in pvp, but other pve and wvw content there’s no point to playing.

That’s the reason I play this game to start with and keep with it. It’s not a WoW clone, nor should it be.

By Legendary stats you mean Ascended Armor ? Since they are the exact same stats.

Linken.6345:

I think they mean the stat switching ability

Yes, have a PvE track that finishes with a way to upgrade any armor to Legendary Quality, whatever that brings.

I’d say make non-Raid PvE Legendary set in addition to the raid one, so that people can have both, or one or the other, but Anet hates making armor sets, so…

They wouldnt even have to make a new set. Ask anyone that plays wvw seriously. We really couldn’t care less how it looks. Give it the same skin as the exotic wvw armor you can buy for badges. We just want it for the stat swapping utility. Let the raiders keep their fancy transforming armor. Just add something for proofs of heroics+badges and make it look generic but have stat swapping functionality. I hate pve and have no desire to do it for something that would be hugely beneficial for wvw. Its bad enough wvw players are forced to do pve for guild upgrades for wvw.

I’m sure pvers wouldn’t enjoy it if they were forced to complete all 4 maps in wvw for each raid armor piece or something as similarly stupid. no player should be forced to play a mode they despise for rewards that would be useful in another mode.

Also, so pvers cant whine about it, make a way for them to get gift of battle without doing wvw. They don’t want to be there, we dont want them there taking up queue space and afking in spawn or feeding enemies kills running around in their pve builds and getting stomped, giving the other team points. And in exchange, give us our own unique legendary armor without having to ever do pve. I’d say its a fair compromise.

I wouldn’t mind a Legendary quality Tribal outfit, come to think of it….

So you want the game to be all about endless/mindless grinding. I thought this game wasn’t about grind, something you forgot in your pillars of GW2

maddoctor.2738:

So you want the game to be all about endless/mindless grinding. I thought this game wasn’t about grind, something you forgot in your pillars of GW2

that went away a very very long time ago.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

I think exclusive rewards for completing challenging content is not only acceptible, but mandatory to ensure that there is a healthy pool of players (regardless of their intentions) willing to complete the content.

Nah. All it takes is for the content to be profitable enough.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Let’s be honest. There are a significant amount of people who do content specifically for the prestige rewards, specifically to show them off . You cannot blame or punish them for that attitude

No reason to reward them for it either.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

because if they do not assist the playerbase that does challenging content for the sake of challenging content, they will have a harder time grouping up to do the content.

So, you’re saying that the number of people interested in said challenging content is simply not big enough to sustain it on their own?

Azure The Heartless.3261:

I do not know to what extent grouping for raids will suffer, but it would behoove you to ensure that the players, regardless of their determination, can share a common goal.

An exclusive content that divides the community ensures that the players can share a common goal…
Right [/sarcasm]

Azure The Heartless.3261:

This is Guild Wars. I think your ability to organize, lead, or adequately be part of a well-forged group should determine the complexity of the content you can complete, including raids.

Well, that’s obvious. I see however no reason why that should impact the rewards

Azure The Heartless.3261:

And I think that it’s certainly fine to have specific rewards for doing specific content a certain way.

Perhaps. There’s however no reason why those rewards have to be better simply because you prefer playing the certain way.

As long as you’re having fun, there should not be the “right” or “wrong” way of playing this game.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

You dont need anything in this game that is prestiged to play or do well.

The same holds true for the “challenging content” players. They “need” those rewards about as much as everyone else.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Exclusives promote a healthy reason to try different game modes.

Exclusives that are here to make you try different game modes are okay. Exclusives that are there to make sure you invest a ton of time in a specific game mode, evein if you don’t like it, are far less okay. That second option just creates a situation, where if you happen to not like that mode, whatever you do, you lose.

You really shouldn’t want your players feeling this way about the game.

Alstreim.9507:

If you want to be able to get the Legendary Armor through gold farming like you can get the Legendary Weapons, then Legendary Weapons should be obtainable via raids.

Well, that sounds like a great idea. I was always all for making multiple paths leading to all the Legendaries.

maddoctor.2738:

So you want the game to be all about endless/mindless grinding. I thought this game wasn’t about grind, something you forgot in your pillars of GW2

Well, raid legendary is all about grind. It’s just grind in a single, specific part of content. Which, in many ways, makes it worse.

so.. this whole topic boils down to
> OP wants all content to be equally accessible everywhere, effectively nullifying any sense of accomplishment or value?

Astralporing.1957:

It’s just grind in a single, specific part of content. Which, in many ways, makes it worse.

That’s what makes it better, not worse.
First, it depends on your definition of grind, I don’t find the Raids a grind at all. You don’t even need to repeat them that often to make the Legendary Armor. The achievements do not require repetition at all (except for Gorseval who needs 4 tries)

Then you need 25 LI to make one part of the set. That’s 2 full runs (9) + a couple more (3) kills per piece so you are making enough progress easily. With the upcoming Wing 4 we’ll get 4 more per run for a total of 13. 2 full Raid runs (2 weeks) per piece of armor.

Future Raids might give more LI too.

Compared to getting the other gifts that are common with legendary weapons (like 15 mystic clovers) or the 100 of each t6 material, that’s absolutely nothing.

maddoctor.2738:

Astralporing.1957:

It’s just grind in a single, specific part of content. Which, in many ways, makes it worse.

That’s what makes it better, not worse.
First, it depends on your definition of grind, I don’t find the Raids a grind at all. You don’t even need to repeat them that often to make the Legendary Armor. The achievements do not require repetition at all (except for Gorseval who needs 4 tries)

Then you need 25 LI to make one part of the set. That’s 2 full runs (9) + a couple more (3) kills per piece so you are making enough progress easily. With the upcoming Wing 4 we’ll get 4 more per run for a total of 13. 2 full Raid runs (2 weeks) per piece of armor.

Future Raids might give more LI too.

Compared to getting the other gifts that are common with legendary weapons (like 15 mystic clovers) or the 100 of each t6 material, that’s absolutely nothing.

i can make a gift of fortune in 2 days grinding my butt off in pve. i need like 3 months of raiding to make a set. so yeah its a much higher grind. your also assuming perfect groups 1st try kills and every kill being on lfg within the week. im lucky to get 4 kills a week through lfg.