Guild Wars 2

Hi, I’m Pawstruck, and I’m quitting Guild Wars 2 for a while.

This isn’t meant to be a complain thread, a “nerf X, buff Y” thread, or anything like that. I’m not looking to start a flame war or rag on how bad this game is. It’s a great game, and in many ways revolutionary to the MMORPG genre. I look forward to the day I can come back. But for now… I might hop on SPVP just for yucks or something once in a while, but for the most part, I’m done.

What I want to do now is to recount my personal experience of this game. If you’d like to call me a noob or a baddie or whatever, feel free to do so, but please make it constructive. I don’t mind being called ignorant so long as there’s some information I can use to educate myself alongside it. Let’s avoid ad hominim.

So after watching the countless beta videos, I chose Thief for my “main” on GW2. I loved the idea of a non-perma-stealth rogue-class character. It appeared from the footage that the Thief would have tons of clever evasive skills, combined with the dodge system, to keep itself alive in PVP and PVE alike. I was excited!

Once I hit 80, I experimented with several (PVE) builds… first backstab, then Pistol Whip, then tanky/evasive, and then back to backstab. What I noticed was that every single time I would go into melee, I would die. No. Matter. What. I tried to watch for the animations and dodge at the right time. I tried using Signet of Malice and Caltrops to heal-tank some of the time. I’ve tried literally every utility bar setup I can think of.

Bottom line is, Thief go melee, Thief go splat.

“Okay, fine.” I thought, “A-net just need to buff our survivability a bit. Maybe we’re just a low-damage, glass canon class.” One of my best RL friends’ main was a Warrior. I would often struggle with one or two enemies in a dungeon while I would see him ripping through mobs with his Greatsword without batting an eye. He was able to run full offense spec and basically stand there rolling face while I was over here dodging, healing, picking my fights… all while he was out-damaging me by miles.

I watched the various crazes go by and get nerfed. I saw Mesmers go from vital to “okay.” I saw the Guardian-stacking, 50-retaliation-stack groups get taken down. These things are gimmicky challenges to class balance, I thought, and I was glad to see them go. From my point of view, it’s good to be able to run a group full of one class only, but having mandatory or optimized groups with 4-5 of the same class is unhealthy for the game.

So.

“Alright,” I told myself, “I’ll roll and Elementalist. They should be good at group support and always desirable.” I got to 80, super excited to run a staff support build… and found that it wasn’t that great. All I was doing was tossing down combo fields when they were off cooldown, sometimes combining Earth 2 with Water 3 for some heals… that’s it.

But Pawstruck, you say, why not try a different build? Why not a ranged Thief or a Dagger/ Ele?

Well, first off, I have tried ranged Thief builds. P/P is extraordinarily underwhelming in DPS, although very fun. Meanwhile, right next to me, my Warrior friend is chopping people in half spamming greatsword while he’s munching cheetos and taking naps…. and I’m struggling to get 5k Unloads. Have you ever tried using Shortbow on a Thief in PVE? It’s the dumbest thing in the world, standing there spamming #2, shooting ghetto little twirly projectiles that move slower than molasses. This isn’t what I signed up for as a ninja class. I’m looking at some dagger builds on my Ele, but then, I’m not sure… didn’t they just get smoked in the Apr. 30 patch?

So this leaves me here. The same three classes (Mesmers, Guardians, Warriors) continue to dominate PVE, while the remaining 5 seem under-designed. I can’t speak for the rest of them, but many skills on the Thief just seem like they were rushed and not designed very well (Pistol #2 and the old S/D #3 being prime examples, with Venoms following closely behind).

The classes that work well work extraordinarily well, while the classes that feel underdesigned (don’t get me started on Rangers!) are incredibly far behind. It’s not that I can’t get a dungeon group, either. I play with 4 friends. This content is not hard enough to merit min/maxing. That’s not the point.

The point is that as a Thief who plays PVE, I can’t go melee. As an Elementalist who plays support, I don’t feel like I’m “supporting” much… just like I’m spamming AoE’s. Class design in an MMO is everything. Everything! For me, it’s what keeps me engaged even if the endgame content isn’t the greatest. I mean look, we could go play God of War if we wanted great PVE, right? We’re here because of strategic class design and massive social experiences.

I just feel so defeated. As I said, I don’t hate this game, I think it’s great… but for the past few months I have felt my interest in it hemorrhaging. There is no reason for my favorite class (Thief) to exist. We’re out-DPS’d, we go splat in a millisecond when we go melee, and I didn’t roll Thief to shoot a stupid Shortbow, especially after the ridiculous SB#1 nerf this patch. I’ve already sunk hundreds of hours into the game leveling up and experiencing what content I have so far. So no, I will not roll a Warrior/Mesmer/Guaridan alt. I just don’t have the time or interest.

I hope to return in a few months if the class design gets better, and the balance issues are resolved. But… what about others like me who aren’t so fanboyish? I worry that the future of this game is being threatened by imbalance. It can really ruin a game, especially an MMO. Anyway, any advice, feedback, criticism, and etc. are welcomed. Just… if you flame me or call me a whiner or whatever without actually giving reasons, I’ll just ignore you. /shrug.

Thieves are underpowered in PvE? Maybe. But at least you can still go to WvW and /faceroll people.

If you’re this uptight about your thief being weak, your head would probably explode if you even tried to play a ranger.

Be glad you didn’t pick an Engineer.

That thing you mentioned where you noticed how the warrior can totally be all defense mode in a dungeon and just roll face with the damage without thinking of dying? Yeah that’s what we were supposed to have. They decided somewhere that engineers weren’t meant to be soldiers so they reclassified us as adventurer class (which would be fine if they redid our traits so we could actually burst damage like the other adventurer classes) yeah we can’t even reach your burst damage on a thief. I’ve tried them all in PVE.

The problem is yes, alot of what they did was leave some traits half finished. They also misclassified engineers, and made the ui for the pets not only completely stupid but so weak that it takes just a couple of hits for much of them to die instantly. It really is that sad.

Now you’ll hear all kinds of naysaying to your observations, you’ll even be called some names but at the end of the day know this, you are not alone, we all see it, the difference is the people who are naysaying telling us it’s really not as bad as we think it is, they all play one of the three OP PVE classes so really they aren’t going to see it.

It took my friends 10 year old son 20 minutes of playing engineer and then trying another class to play to see that there’s huge holes in the PVE damage and he’s no slouch he raids in WoW and multiple other games so he spends hours crunching the numbers for these games. My point is even a 10 year old can see there’s a big problem here in PVE it’s that obvious.

Why people think its fine that it takes one class 3 times the moves that these three other classes can 3 shot is beyond me. Combat equality indeed….

Pawstruck.9708:

Hi, I’m Pawstruck, and I’m quitting Guild Wars 2 for a while.

Bottom line is, Thief go melee, Thief go splat.

“Okay, fine.” I thought, “A-net just need to buff our survivability a bit. Maybe we’re just a low-damage, glass canon class.” One of my best RL friends’ main was a Warrior. I would often struggle with one or two enemies in a dungeon while I would see him ripping through mobs with his Greatsword without batting an eye. He was able to run full offense spec and basically stand there rolling face while I was over here dodging, healing, picking my fights… all while he was out-damaging me by miles.

The design and balance of skills and the various classes in this game is very poor.

While other aspects of the game have clearly received a lot of fine detail work that’s a result of several iterations, their skill design looks like it never received a design check. Similarly big chunks of their skill set has never received a balance pass.

Is it threatening the game? I don’t know. This is a casual friendly game without a monthly fee. That big chunks of their end game design (such as character depth and their reward structure) are hilariously bad doesn’t necessarily threaten the game if they’re making all their money off people who don’t put 100 hours into the game, let alone 1000.

Is it a long run concern that hurts the replay value of the game? Absolutely. It’s absurd that their combat system boils down to ‘swing and axe, now swing an axe again’, but that’s what they have at the moment on the PvE side.

The elephantine irony in all this is that ANet keeps boosting various aspects of the warrior, because it is the worst performing SPVP profession.

It all boils down to them having SPVP as something of a main focus, and you can see why now that they finally got spectator mode working. The web is exploding with various groups setting up tournaments that they plan to stream the finals off, and are offering various prizes for the winning teams.

So while the lions share of the art effort has gone into the expansive PVE world, game balance have had a laser focus on SPVP.

ANet is however starting to own up to the fact that this did not work out as they had hoped, and we may well see various skills get numeric tweaks for different game modes (PVE, WVW, SPVP) in the following months.

digiowl.9620:

ANet is however starting to own up to the fact that this did not work out as they had hoped, and we may well see various skills get numeric tweaks for different game modes (PVE, WVW, SPVP) in the following months.

One can only hope that they are listening now as I suspect (as many have) that their time is running out on making this work.

I feel like a simple internal DPS test could reveal these problems. I don’t understand how Anet don’t have access to this information.

Like… if it was something more subjective, like healing or utility or survivability — something that depended on skill use or dodge or scaling — that would be one thing. But DPS is the easiest factor in a game to balance. You grab some specs, run the numbers in some different scenarios, and presto. Results. I don’t get why this is an issue 7 months into the game’s life.

Thieves can do a lots of things in PvE that warriors can’t do.
The thief profession is better at adaptation, tricks, evasion, attrition.
But these things are useless in dungeons because GW2 is not an adventure game.
The word adventure implies the unexpected.
When the essence of the gameplay becomes speedruns there is just efficiency in repetitions of the same moves.
In this category it’s hard to beat the warrior.

There is no room for adventurers in dungeon farming.
If you want to enjoy the thief profession, and play an adventure game, go roam solo the maps in PvE (or WvW).

Unfortunately, this game is turning out to be another Diablo 3. Unbalanced classes, a deteriorating economy, and a dwindling playerbase make Guild Wars 2 a lackluster game. I honestly knew that deviating from the normal Tank/DPS/Healing tradition of mmorpg’s would make nerfs inevitable, but I didn’t expect this many nerfs to take place. It’s gotten to the point where I’m moving on to other mmorpgs like Neverwinter, Aion, and even WoW. After leveling a ranger to 80, looking at the numbers, comparing those to other classes, and then crying, I decided to move on to Neverwinter.

Well if you “quitting the game for a long time” that means at one point your coming back. Most ppl do not see to get this that GW2 is free to play after you buy it so unless your going to destroy your code or give away your account one way or another your not quitting your just taking time off form the game and that by designee. Even GW1 was this way ppl come and go but there accounts are still there to be played.

As for balancing its still a new game in that view. We have games that have been out for 3 years + and there still bad balancing lol.
When it comes to pve if you feel that your numbers are lower then others they may very well be but GW2 is not a max min game and to try to make it into one will only lead to pain on your part.

Galtrix.7369:

I decided to move on to Neverwinter.

Ive never seen so clunky game in my life. How do you people even like it?

Funset.7893:

Galtrix.7369:

I decided to move on to Neverwinter.

Ive never seen so clunky game in my life. How do you people even like it?

Its the next thing ESO will be next (some how that game is dieing before its even out lol) then Wildstar then something else. You will find a lot of ppl like this in GW2 because GW2 at one point was the next thing we just had a down time for new mmorpg and now we have a new one.

Funset.7893:

Galtrix.7369:

I decided to move on to Neverwinter.

Ive never seen so clunky game in my life. How do you people even like it?

It may be clunky, but I’d rather play a clunky game that knows how to balance classes than a game with great graphics that sucks at everything.

Ayochak.8293:

Thieves can do a lots of things in PvE that warriors can’t do.
The thief profession is better at adaptation, tricks, evasion, attrition.
But these things are useless in dungeons because GW2 is not an adventure game.
The word adventure implies the unexpected.
When the essence of the gameplay becomes speedruns there is just efficiency in repetitions of the same moves.
In this category it’s hard to beat the warrior.

There is no room for adventurers in dungeon farming.
If you want to enjoy the thief profession, and play an adventure game, go roam solo the maps in PvE (or WvW).

Now this I actually find fascinating. Thanks for the insight, Ayochack.

It IS intriguing that, say, Warriors are great in PVE while Thieves are fine in PVP. PVP requires more intricate timing of cooldowns/dodges, the ability to react to the unknown, and elements of freedom (who to attack and when) that PVE doesn’t. I wonder if it’s really “too late” for GW2 to incorporate some of this into their PVE, though. You never know. Either way, interesting point.

And yes, the great thing about GW2 is that it’s B2P. I will be coming back at some point for sure.

Galtrix.7369:

Funset.7893:

Galtrix.7369:

I decided to move on to Neverwinter.

Ive never seen so clunky game in my life. How do you people even like it?

It may be clunky, but I’d rather play a clunky game that knows how to balance classes than a game with great graphics that sucks at everything.

Because u had the time to explore the endgame (pvp and pve wise) on every single class in a freshly released game in open beta? Really?

Funset.7893:

Galtrix.7369:

Funset.7893:

Galtrix.7369:

I decided to move on to Neverwinter.

Ive never seen so clunky game in my life. How do you people even like it?

It may be clunky, but I’d rather play a clunky game that knows how to balance classes than a game with great graphics that sucks at everything.

Because u had the time to explore the endgame (pvp and pve wise) on every single class in a freshly released game in open beta? Really?

I’m going purely off of Perfect World’s other games for my opinion on Neverwinter. If they know how to balance classes in 15 games, then I think they can do it one more time.

Galtrix.7369:

Funset.7893:

Galtrix.7369:

Funset.7893:

Galtrix.7369:

I decided to move on to Neverwinter.

Ive never seen so clunky game in my life. How do you people even like it?

It may be clunky, but I’d rather play a clunky game that knows how to balance classes than a game with great graphics that sucks at everything.

Because u had the time to explore the endgame (pvp and pve wise) on every single class in a freshly released game in open beta? Really?

I’m going purely off of Perfect World’s other games for my opinion on Neverwinter. If they know how to balance classes in 15 games, then I think they can do it one more time.

There is a big difference between a developer (studio) and a publisher.

i do think the threat is that they fixated too much about class balance.
every patch its about balance balance balance and bugfix.!!
they should’ve finished those headstart!! not still doin it 8 months into its lifespan!!
and… no one likes their toys taken from them repeatedly. (class capabilities)
some wouldn’t stand it and leave…
and the content we get so far.. its all gimmic!! they put every ounce of manpower to fix the smallest issue in balance and fix things people whine about!
games need progress to keep costumer preoccupied.! many . new area. new skill, new monster. new skins. class advancement. new toys.. (temporary holiday stuff is not good enough)
instead.. they keep taking them away.. and have little to no progress for the core of the game! and when many new games are coming out, i doubt gw2 will have the power to hold on to its costumer.. and stand its ground.!

sorry for the QQ!! i love this game, but lately, its kinda stale..

How is this suddenly a thread about Neverwinter. lol.

Still, this shows, I think, how important it is to MMORPG players that they feel like they can contribute as much as the next guy to a group. Some folks like to get carried, but it’s much more fun to feel like you’re needed.

Funset.7893:

Galtrix.7369:

I decided to move on to Neverwinter.

Ive never seen so clunky game in my life. How do you people even like it?

It doesn’t seem clunky to me at all.

You can melee with thief just fine. Just don’t charge into silver mobs surrounding you, because quite frankly only guardians and warriors live through that anyways.

Thief isn’t that weak in melee as you claim. The dps and burst are huge. In fact a lot of Citadel of Flame path 1 (CoF p1) speed farming groups now use thieves. That dungeon path is all about killing fast. Previously it was 4 warriors + 1 mesmer. Now it can be 2-3 thieves 1-2 warriors + 1 mesmer.

I also have a thief and I haven’t had the survivability issues you noted. Thief can solo most of the game bosses alone. Surely thief cannot facetank like a warrior does, but let’s face it: ONLY the heavy armor professions (guardians, warriors), bunker D/D elementalists and necromancers can do that so easily. With a thief you gotta use the dodge button. But dodge button is even more important for engineer, because it is also medium armor and lacks the easy tools of escape thief has (no easy access to stealth, no shadowstepping).

The shortbow spam + caltrops is actually pretty effective against the monster mobs despite the clusterbomb travels so slow (you just need to learn to place those AoE circles where the monsters will be). Pistol #5, Black Powder can be used to blind the mobs almost non-stop. Most monsters attack so slowly. You just gotta time your blinds correct. It won’t work against monsters who are immune to blind e.g. dredges, but those dredges are a painful thing to solo for most professions.

Staff elementalist is okay, not as bad as you claim, but the problem is: dual dagger elementalist is still (after all these nerfs) one of the most overpowered combinations in the game. Everytime I play D/D elementalist is feels such a face roll. Soloing all the Orr maps was easier than with my warrior or engineer. And my d/d ele was then underleveled and undergeared.

However I fully agree that the professions are not balanced at all when it comes to WvWvW and pve. Sadly Arenanet balances the professions based on one game mode only: tournament level pvp, which is mostly about holding points. You cannot contest a point while being in stealth, thus thief is not that strong in pvp and thieves have been in fact buffed too much when it comes to WvWvW. The recent 3 s revealed revert was badly thought out mistake. Thieves are extremely common in WvWvW, at least in euro tier #1. They are almost as common as guardians and warriors, which are the most common professions. The combination of stealth on demand, lots of shadowsteps and high mobility + burst damage, allows thieves to do stealth stomping, spam dagger storm at enemy zergs and pick of victims from the rear and sides without much any risk. Thieves are the perfect trolling profession, contesting enemy controlled areas while enemy has trouble finding them. Low risk, high reward. One could also argue that thief is the best profession for solo roaming in WvWvW.

Warriors are super strong in pve and buffing them for pve was… unnecessary. Guardians have always been strong and while I rarely play my guardian I feel that guardian is one of the best designed professions and should not be altered much.

Arenanet should really look at the least played professions, engineer being probably the least played profession in pve and WvWvW. Why nobody is looking for engineer in a party? You see constantly people looking for a dungeon or high level fractal group saying stuff like “LF1M, warrior or thief only”, “LF2m, guardian only”, “mesmer only…”. Engineer are by far the most difficult profession to play effectively, requiring so many key presses and mouse clicks that D/D elementalist looks like a walk in a park after that. Engineers need something unique, something else with other professions don’t have. Turrets are not the thing as turrets are currently weak and turret health pool is ridiculously low e.g. compare healing turret having 5.9k health, vs ranger ursine pet having 2.6k armor and over 29k health. The former is immobile and self-destructs in 5 minutes (but lasts <2 seconds in WvWvW). The latter is mobile, can swapped into another pet, can inflict a lot of different conditions or do utility and doesn’t even require a skill slot. To add more salt to the wounds, turret-related traits are way too weak and at the moment they don’t even do anything. Yes, they are totally broken.

I am sure Arenanet has all the tools to make a better balanced game. They have access to real servers-wide usage statistics. They can analyze the map chat logs and so on. They should boost the least used professions and underused skills and weapons. They should not nerf too many things, like they have been constantly been doing with the engineer profession (yes, nerf bat swings with every patch, thieves at least got something useful in recent patch e.g. larcenous strike, buffed signets), because that only makes the player base more angry.

Well tbh everything seems underpowerd in PvE compared to GS warriors builds with 19k hp, 100% crit chance and ~19k hits from 100b…

The root of so much unhappiness in this game is envy. Everyone compares what they have to what someone else has. Want to know what my ranger has that your warrior doesn’t.

A pet. lol

I like the pet. I like collecting pets. I enjoy swapping out pets, like an extra weapon. And if I’m not as effiicient as a warrior, that’s okay.

Because playing my warrior bored me to tears.

The problem with game balance is multifaceted, but the root of it is in the philosophies behind each of the classes. Warriors are seen as a dps class. Engineers are seen as a versatility class which sacrifices damage for that versatility. Necromancers are seen as an attrition class.

There’s nothing wrong with class design philosophies, but roles are muddied in GW2. All classes can to some extent fulfill any role, and big damage spec characters can provide enough of the other roles in certain circumstances to get by.

Essentially, a philosophy of class differentiation was used in a game that was trying to homogenize classes to avoid the trinity.

IndigoSundown.5419:

The problem with game balance is multifaceted, but the root of it is in the philosophies behind each of the classes. Warriors are seen as a dps class. Engineers are seen as a versatility class which sacrifices damage for that versatility. Necromancers are seen as an attrition class.

There’s nothing wrong with class design philosophies, but roles are muddied in GW2. All classes can to some extent fulfill any role, and big damage spec characters can provide enough of the other roles in certain circumstances to get by.

Thats correct but the game rewards are based on one thing only, kills.

Funset.7893:

Galtrix.7369:

I decided to move on to Neverwinter.

Ive never seen so clunky game in my life. How do you people even like it?

Working CC for one. Love how i can win a fight with a big mob via a couple of skills that lock him down, rather than having to run circles all the time because the CC is miss it if you blink but the cooldown is half the fight.

morrolan.9608:

IndigoSundown.5419:

The problem with game balance is multifaceted, but the root of it is in the philosophies behind each of the classes. Warriors are seen as a dps class. Engineers are seen as a versatility class which sacrifices damage for that versatility. Necromancers are seen as an attrition class.

There’s nothing wrong with class design philosophies, but roles are muddied in GW2. All classes can to some extent fulfill any role, and big damage spec characters can provide enough of the other roles in certain circumstances to get by.

Thats correct but the game rewards are based on one thing only, kills.

Unless you count having fun as a game reward. I have more fun on just about any character other than my warrior. I play games to have fun. Fun rewards me.

If you play for in game rewards and nothing else, what you say is true.

Vayne.8563:

The root of so much unhappiness in this game is envy. Everyone compares what they have to what someone else has. Want to know what my ranger has that your warrior doesn’t.

A pet. lol

I like the pet. I like collecting pets. I enjoy swapping out pets, like an extra weapon. And if I’m not as effiicient as a warrior, that’s okay.

Because playing my warrior bored me to tears.

Mmm the benefits of being an altaholic. My engineer is also a lot more damaging than my warrior but that is not any accident. I would like ranger a lot more if dodging and 2 with sword wasn’t so unreliable. Pets do not really feel like they contribute enough given the attention investment.

Khisanth.2948:

Vayne.8563:

The root of so much unhappiness in this game is envy. Everyone compares what they have to what someone else has. Want to know what my ranger has that your warrior doesn’t.

A pet. lol

I like the pet. I like collecting pets. I enjoy swapping out pets, like an extra weapon. And if I’m not as effiicient as a warrior, that’s okay.

Because playing my warrior bored me to tears.

Mmm the benefits of being an altaholic. My engineer is also a lot more damaging than my warrior but that is not any accident. I would like ranger a lot more if dodging and 2 with sword wasn’t so unreliable. Pets do not really feel like they contribute enough given the attention investment.

I’m specced so my pets do maximum damage and I do a bit less. So I see my pets as vital. I take birds and cats in some areas, and spiders in places like dungeons, because they’re ranged and live longer.

It works quite well. I often catch people completely by surprise in WvW when they ignore my pet and focus me and I kite them and my pet downs them.

I think the main issue is, there is no longevity in Guildwars 2 everything that made its predecessor great and lasted a long time was thrown out because it was too hard to balance or not seen as needed (by Anet)..

It was needed.

Dante.1508:

I think the main issue is, there is no longevity in Guildwars 2 everything that made its predecessor great and lasted a long time was thrown out because it was too hard to balance or not seen as needed (by Anet)..

It was needed.

I guess we’ll see whether there’s longevity or not. We can definitely agree that Anet is trying to achieve longevity differently this time around though.

There are videos of thieves soloing dungeons. There are thieves doing just fine running about Orr. Thieves seem in a relatively good place in both forms pvp.

Warriors on the other hand have pretty much one viable spec, face melt for pve and er that’s it.

There are certainly balance issues though in general, one of the primary reasons for this is that skills and builds are shared between pve/wvw and spvp.

Thief is great in PvE.
Cycling teleports, evades, blinds, evades and smoke screen actually gives you very solid survivability, much more than you get with a Warrior.
Also, mix gear properly until you get 2500 armor and 16k health.
Unicorn build works wonders too.

Sadly most Thieves play it this way: go full DPS and stealth when you’re about to die.
But it’s really not how you play a thief.

I agree with the OP on the thief. I have leveled the engineer, the necromancer, and the thief to level 80, and so far the thief is the only one I really don’t like playing to much. Why? Well, it’s quite simple to just say what you said:

“Thief go melee, Thief go splat”.

The low amount of HP the class has makes it, in PVE, so frail that it is nearly impossible to fight any mob in melee that isn’t by itself. The main defense of the thief is dodging, but that doesn’t work at all. The weapon skills for dodging don’t interrupt animations from previous skills, and due to the lag behind ending animations and the use of the next skill, I never know whether that quarter-second dodge from Death Blossom will fire off immediately or fire off 3/4ths of a second later (and yes, I have timed that large of a delay in the skill). Given that the dodge skills have a margin for error of three times their own length, this makes any active evasion at its best a fluke on this class. Even the sword and the shortbow’s evasion won’t fire off when you need it.

The best strategy for melee I’ve found so far is to use sword/pistol. Fire off pistol #5 for the smoke cloud, then swing away with the sword’s auto attack, cleaving multiple enemies at once. The second best strategy is to spam death blossom on a condition build then hide while the conditions do the damage. Pretty much everything else I’ve tried really doesn’t work. S/D has some stuns but they are short duration, and the evade doesn’t work. D/P does laughable damage to a single target, with a signature skill that will just get you killed. D/D gives death blossom, but for anything that isn’t a condition thief will be killed when there is more than one target.

The worst part of this is that, at the end of the day, the DPS I’m getting from the thief is inferior to the necromancer and the engineer. The engineer has its own problems, sure, but at melee range the rifle in combination with the bomb kit or even the elixir kit can do good damage, and it does this in large AoEs. At a distance, grenades hit the condition cap by themselves and a coated bullets pistol can hit for 26k damage total over an enemy group with their auto attack alone. And that is coming from a support class. The necromancer’s dagger auto is, kitten for tat, stronger than the thieves identical attack chain. Even then, there are a ton of things to fall back on, such as wells and minions for high sustained damage and the always present death shroud for strong single target damage. Necros do their best AoE damage with conditions thanks to epidemic, which WILL melt the face off of everything in the room. That’s quite a lot coming from a class that is, by default, around 80% more durable than the thief.

The thief’s trick is high single target burst damage. This is decent in PVP (personally I’ve never had a problem with ambush thieves), but in PVE it is useless. First, most overworld enemies are too weak to use this on, and anything that is a veteran and higher has such a high HP count that burst damage is completely useless. Second, there is rarely ever a single enemy there to fight. In high level events on the overworld the game spawns more enemies than the computer can process, and in dungeons you’ll get 5 or so silver mobs with every single group encounter..

The only other trick they have is stealth, and while it is nice to sneak past a bunch of mobs in a dungeon and rez the dead without being hassled, ultimately stealth in PVE ends up being a 4 second “aggro free” time before the thief goes back to being pummeled. Other than a few miscellaneous tricks like Smoke Screen and Bountiful Theft, the thief doesn’t have any real useful support skills. And certainly not ones that work at melee range.

No, my main is a thief and like Fenrir said they can do very well at PvE.
I soloed a few dungeons myself (only finished Caudecus story tho), and I’m a champion hunter (I’m killing several champions each day, at least 2 or 3).
Maybe you need to read the thief forums and try a few different builds.
Personally I run a heal & bleed build and my DPS totally sux.
And I’m running D/D.
I melee.

My full zerker armor sleeps in my bags.
I’m no longer using it.

Vayne.8563:

morrolan.9608:

IndigoSundown.5419:

The problem with game balance is multifaceted, but the root of it is in the philosophies behind each of the classes. Warriors are seen as a dps class. Engineers are seen as a versatility class which sacrifices damage for that versatility. Necromancers are seen as an attrition class.

There’s nothing wrong with class design philosophies, but roles are muddied in GW2. All classes can to some extent fulfill any role, and big damage spec characters can provide enough of the other roles in certain circumstances to get by.

Thats correct but the game rewards are based on one thing only, kills.

Unless you count having fun as a game reward. I have more fun on just about any character other than my warrior. I play games to have fun. Fun rewards me.

If you play for in game rewards and nothing else, what you say is true.

Some players don’t care about maximum efficiency. Many do. Most complaints about game balance occur because players compare the results achieved by one class to those achieved by another and find one wanting. Usually, those complaints come from the players who do care. Saying, “Some players care more about viability than parity” does not mean that there are no balance issues.

GW2 class design is based on philosophies of diversification rooted in other MMO’s. Those other MMO’s offer diverse classes and specs, and enforce trinity play. They also provide content balanced around needing that diversity. GW2 primarily offers content that minimizes the impact of diversity.

MMO effectiveness is all about winning fights. This means keeping your side up while taking the other side down. Many of the tools to negate damage in GW2 are available to all classes. High DPS is not. The class design philosophies are responsible for this disparity.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

morrolan.9608:

IndigoSundown.5419:

The problem with game balance is multifaceted, but the root of it is in the philosophies behind each of the classes. Warriors are seen as a dps class. Engineers are seen as a versatility class which sacrifices damage for that versatility. Necromancers are seen as an attrition class.

There’s nothing wrong with class design philosophies, but roles are muddied in GW2. All classes can to some extent fulfill any role, and big damage spec characters can provide enough of the other roles in certain circumstances to get by.

Thats correct but the game rewards are based on one thing only, kills.

Unless you count having fun as a game reward. I have more fun on just about any character other than my warrior. I play games to have fun. Fun rewards me.

If you play for in game rewards and nothing else, what you say is true.

Some players don’t care about maximum efficiency. Many do. Most complaints about game balance occur because players compare the results achieved by one class to those achieved by another and find one wanting. Usually, those complaints come from the players who do care. Saying, “Some players care more about viability than parity” does not mean that there are no balance issues.

GW2 class design is based on philosophies of diversification rooted in other MMO’s. Those other MMO’s offer diverse classes and specs, and enforce trinity play. They also provide content balanced around needing that diversity. GW2 primarily offers content that minimizes the impact of diversity.

MMO effectiveness is all about winning fights. This means keeping your side up while taking the other side down. Many of the tools to negate damage in GW2 are available to all classes. High DPS is not. The class design philosophies are responsible for this disparity.

I’m not saying that people who want balance are wrong for wanting balance. I’m staying that when someone says “this is wrong and this is bad” well yeah…for some people. The people who care about it. Many don’t.

It’ll get fixed in time…but fixes take time. I’ve played so many MMOs so much more out of balance than this, it’s not funny. Sure there are problems…but the depth of those problems is greatly exaagerated, because other professions CAN do the content.

It really is pretty laughable. As a Thief, you are forced to stay at ranged most of the time in dungeons because of how dangerous melee is, but your ranged weapons are gimpy so you end up just not being very effective.

I think the main thing they need to do is close the defensive gap between classes a bit. Then they need to buff coefficients for certain weapons so that you don’t feel like you’re kitten by staying at range. Some classes should just have better offense than others to make up for defensive shortcomings. Currently they don’t, which is why Guardian and Warrior are significantly better than other professions in PvE.

They could do other innovative things as well, such as giving medium and light armor wearers some innate boons compared to heavy armor wearers like faster endurance regeneration and shorter cooldowns.

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

morrolan.9608:

IndigoSundown.5419:

The problem with game balance is multifaceted, but the root of it is in the philosophies behind each of the classes. Warriors are seen as a dps class. Engineers are seen as a versatility class which sacrifices damage for that versatility. Necromancers are seen as an attrition class.

There’s nothing wrong with class design philosophies, but roles are muddied in GW2. All classes can to some extent fulfill any role, and big damage spec characters can provide enough of the other roles in certain circumstances to get by.

Thats correct but the game rewards are based on one thing only, kills.

Unless you count having fun as a game reward. I have more fun on just about any character other than my warrior. I play games to have fun. Fun rewards me.

If you play for in game rewards and nothing else, what you say is true.

Some players don’t care about maximum efficiency. Many do. Most complaints about game balance occur because players compare the results achieved by one class to those achieved by another and find one wanting. Usually, those complaints come from the players who do care. Saying, “Some players care more about viability than parity” does not mean that there are no balance issues.

GW2 class design is based on philosophies of diversification rooted in other MMO’s. Those other MMO’s offer diverse classes and specs, and enforce trinity play. They also provide content balanced around needing that diversity. GW2 primarily offers content that minimizes the impact of diversity.

MMO effectiveness is all about winning fights. This means keeping your side up while taking the other side down. Many of the tools to negate damage in GW2 are available to all classes. High DPS is not. The class design philosophies are responsible for this disparity.

I’m not saying that people who want balance are wrong for wanting balance. I’m staying that when someone says “this is wrong and this is bad” well yeah…for some people. The people who care about it. Many don’t.

It’ll get fixed in time…but fixes take time. I’ve played so many MMOs so much more out of balance than this, it’s not funny. Sure there are problems…but the depth of those problems is greatly exaagerated, because other professions CAN do the content.

That’s just it. I don’t think it will get fixed, unless the devs adapt their design philosophies or make radical changes to the content — neither of which I think is in the cards. The current set-up, and tweaks to it based on the philosophies in place, is about all we can expect. If I’m right, there will always be gross imbalances in damage potential.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

morrolan.9608:

IndigoSundown.5419:

The problem with game balance is multifaceted, but the root of it is in the philosophies behind each of the classes. Warriors are seen as a dps class. Engineers are seen as a versatility class which sacrifices damage for that versatility. Necromancers are seen as an attrition class.

There’s nothing wrong with class design philosophies, but roles are muddied in GW2. All classes can to some extent fulfill any role, and big damage spec characters can provide enough of the other roles in certain circumstances to get by.

Thats correct but the game rewards are based on one thing only, kills.

Unless you count having fun as a game reward. I have more fun on just about any character other than my warrior. I play games to have fun. Fun rewards me.

If you play for in game rewards and nothing else, what you say is true.

Some players don’t care about maximum efficiency. Many do. Most complaints about game balance occur because players compare the results achieved by one class to those achieved by another and find one wanting. Usually, those complaints come from the players who do care. Saying, “Some players care more about viability than parity” does not mean that there are no balance issues.

GW2 class design is based on philosophies of diversification rooted in other MMO’s. Those other MMO’s offer diverse classes and specs, and enforce trinity play. They also provide content balanced around needing that diversity. GW2 primarily offers content that minimizes the impact of diversity.

MMO effectiveness is all about winning fights. This means keeping your side up while taking the other side down. Many of the tools to negate damage in GW2 are available to all classes. High DPS is not. The class design philosophies are responsible for this disparity.

I’m not saying that people who want balance are wrong for wanting balance. I’m staying that when someone says “this is wrong and this is bad” well yeah…for some people. The people who care about it. Many don’t.

It’ll get fixed in time…but fixes take time. I’ve played so many MMOs so much more out of balance than this, it’s not funny. Sure there are problems…but the depth of those problems is greatly exaagerated, because other professions CAN do the content.

That’s just it. I don’t think it will get fixed, unless the devs adapt their design philosophies or make radical changes to the content — neither of which I think is in the cards. The current set-up, and tweaks to it based on the philosophies in place, is about all we can expect. If I’m right, there will always be gross imbalances in damage potential.

Well i do not think ppl should specialized in dmg out put tankly and supporting in effect ppl are trying to still play the game as if there is a 3 class type system and still running into the same problem. Take a thf as a class you can land a free stun drop in a burst dmg during that stun then pull out Sbow and start to help control the mob. Thf start to play all 3 rolls by doing this mixing burst dmg with the ability to control the mobs movement. You can run zerk war but if the mob live longer then 20 sec you will die as such a way and losing a lot of your dmg out put. Vs any real pve event that is more then just a dps rush this build is comply worthless.

Galtrix.7369:

I’m going purely off of Perfect World’s other games for my opinion on Neverwinter. If they know how to balance classes in 15 games, then I think they can do it one more time.

As an off/on STO and CO player, I really want to post this to those games’ forums and see how much of a laugh I’d get.

The problem with PvE is that it is currently geared towards “DPS with enough defense to avoid death”. Sadly, any build that doesn’t fit into this mold will just feel lackluster and a waste of time.

So it’s pretty funny, since all manners of successful characters regardless of professions go for “DPS with enough defense to avoid death”. Naturally the classes that lend themselves to this sort of gameplay are easier to play.

But this is too much of a simplification. This is with the context of speedruns.

Thus to improve matters, no amount of class balancing will work until

— People get out of CoF1.

Now the naturally unimaginative and lazy option is to simply nerf that place, but it is stupid because then people will just go to the 2nd most profitable cash cow. So what we should do is give people a reason to go elsewhere. How? By making the time spent vs reward ratio up to par. You should be rewarded well in any difficult content, and still do ok elsewhere.

If you made champions drop much better than they do now, wouldn’t it be more appealing to go back to Orr events. But no, you and a zerg spend 2 minutes beating on a champion with your autoattack and they drop a blue. Thanks?

Balance issues threatening the game

The Balance threat has already impacted Severe Damage to the game and will continually do so.

The question to ask is, How many will remain standing to this Balance Threat?

When there is, Injustice and Favoritism involve, the price to pay/ consequence will be severe; it is the way.

ArchonWing.9480:

The problem with PvE is that it is currently geared towards “DPS with enough defense to avoid death”. Sadly, any build that doesn’t fit into this mold will just feel lackluster and a waste of time.

So it’s pretty funny, since all manners of successful characters regardless of professions go for “DPS with enough defense to avoid death”. Naturally the classes that lend themselves to this sort of gameplay are easier to play.

But this is too much of a simplification. This is with the context of speedruns.

Thus to improve matters, no amount of class balancing will work until

— People get out of CoF1.

Now the naturally unimaginative and lazy option is to simply nerf that place, but it is stupid because then people will just go to the 2nd most profitable cash cow. So what we should do is give people a reason to go elsewhere. How? By making the time spent vs reward ratio up to par. You should be rewarded well in any difficult content, and still do ok elsewhere.

If you made champions drop much better than they do now, wouldn’t it be more appealing to go back to Orr events. But no, you and a zerg spend 2 minutes beating on a champion with your autoattack and they drop a blue. Thanks?

CoF p1 isn’t the only place that enables berzerker stacking. Pretty much every instance does, and for the harder ones you just throw one guardian in and the problem is solved.

Berzerker gear stats just need to be nerfed. Warrior and thief damage in pve needs to be brought in line with other classes — the problem is warriors and thieves burst and sustain too well and it makes boss fights extremely short.

I don’t think it’s intended that even certain harder bosses die in 4-6 minutes because of the raw damage warriors and thieves can frontload and sustain.

People will show the damage of rangers in a cof video but they won’t understand that the only reason it worked there is because the slave driver and other boss was burst down, with warrior banners and might/vulnerability stacking and thieves’ extreme sustain and burst.

You take a boss with higher HP or phases where he cannot be damaged, and the effectiveness of popping signet of the wild to burst a boss down goes away because after signet of the wild is used the ranger’s sustained and burst drops substantially and they can’t do it anymore for 42-60 seconds, whereas thieves and warriors keep their high sustained and their burst abilities are on much lower cd’s.

Same applies for necro lich form. You do great damage with the elite on, but after that it drops out and over long fights it averages out to much inferior total damage.

Berzerker gear stats just need to be nerfed. Warrior and thief damage in pve needs to be brought in line with other classes — the problem is warriors and thieves burst and sustain too well and it makes boss fights extremely short.

Warriors are the lame duck in pvp, if you nerf their damage down in pve (which is pretty much all they have), then you are going to have to significantly buff their non burst specs first.

Jski.6180:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

morrolan.9608:

IndigoSundown.5419:

The problem with game balance is multifaceted, but the root of it is in the philosophies behind each of the classes. Warriors are seen as a dps class. Engineers are seen as a versatility class which sacrifices damage for that versatility. Necromancers are seen as an attrition class.

There’s nothing wrong with class design philosophies, but roles are muddied in GW2. All classes can to some extent fulfill any role, and big damage spec characters can provide enough of the other roles in certain circumstances to get by.

Thats correct but the game rewards are based on one thing only, kills.

Unless you count having fun as a game reward. I have more fun on just about any character other than my warrior. I play games to have fun. Fun rewards me.

If you play for in game rewards and nothing else, what you say is true.

Some players don’t care about maximum efficiency. Many do. Most complaints about game balance occur because players compare the results achieved by one class to those achieved by another and find one wanting. Usually, those complaints come from the players who do care. Saying, “Some players care more about viability than parity” does not mean that there are no balance issues.

GW2 class design is based on philosophies of diversification rooted in other MMO’s. Those other MMO’s offer diverse classes and specs, and enforce trinity play. They also provide content balanced around needing that diversity. GW2 primarily offers content that minimizes the impact of diversity.

MMO effectiveness is all about winning fights. This means keeping your side up while taking the other side down. Many of the tools to negate damage in GW2 are available to all classes. High DPS is not. The class design philosophies are responsible for this disparity.

I’m not saying that people who want balance are wrong for wanting balance. I’m staying that when someone says “this is wrong and this is bad” well yeah…for some people. The people who care about it. Many don’t.

It’ll get fixed in time…but fixes take time. I’ve played so many MMOs so much more out of balance than this, it’s not funny. Sure there are problems…but the depth of those problems is greatly exaagerated, because other professions CAN do the content.

That’s just it. I don’t think it will get fixed, unless the devs adapt their design philosophies or make radical changes to the content — neither of which I think is in the cards. The current set-up, and tweaks to it based on the philosophies in place, is about all we can expect. If I’m right, there will always be gross imbalances in damage potential.

Well i do not think ppl should specialized in dmg out put tankly and supporting in effect ppl are trying to still play the game as if there is a 3 class type system and still running into the same problem. Take a thf as a class you can land a free stun drop in a burst dmg during that stun then pull out Sbow and start to help control the mob. Thf start to play all 3 rolls by doing this mixing burst dmg with the ability to control the mobs movement. You can run zerk war but if the mob live longer then 20 sec you will die as such a way and losing a lot of your dmg out put. Vs any real pve event that is more then just a dps rush this build is comply worthless.

I’m not debating how people should build their characters. I’m debating whether there should be a large damage output difference between two characters who have similar damage stats. Your post supports what I’m saying, because it highlights how a high-burst class can offer something other than damage, while other classes damage is kitten supposedly because they offer those options.

Build is a different matter than class. However, the fact that an all-out Berserker build generates numbers that are easily 3-4 times what a more balanced build can generate on the same class/weapon also magnifies the gap between classes. The other reason differences get magnified is critical chance + damage percentage.

Galtrix.7369:

Funset.7893:

Galtrix.7369:

I decided to move on to Neverwinter.

Ive never seen so clunky game in my life. How do you people even like it?

It may be clunky, but I’d rather play a clunky game that knows how to balance classes than a game with great graphics that sucks at everything.

The tanks dont pull agro and so the Clerics are forced to tank. (Everything that has not been hit in the area has zero agro until it gets hit. Healing ticks pull agro and so all the smaller mobs go to the healer. Very annoying.)
The Great Weapon Fighter is a combination of dps and tank and so it is not good at either.
Look at their forums and you will see they have BIG problems with class balance…
(And yes I play Neverwinter.)

IndigoSundown.5419:

Jski.6180:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

morrolan.9608:

IndigoSundown.5419:

The problem with game balance is multifaceted, but the root of it is in the philosophies behind each of the classes. Warriors are seen as a dps class. Engineers are seen as a versatility class which sacrifices damage for that versatility. Necromancers are seen as an attrition class.

There’s nothing wrong with class design philosophies, but roles are muddied in GW2. All classes can to some extent fulfill any role, and big damage spec characters can provide enough of the other roles in certain circumstances to get by.

Thats correct but the game rewards are based on one thing only, kills.

Unless you count having fun as a game reward. I have more fun on just about any character other than my warrior. I play games to have fun. Fun rewards me.

If you play for in game rewards and nothing else, what you say is true.

Some players don’t care about maximum efficiency. Many do. Most complaints about game balance occur because players compare the results achieved by one class to those achieved by another and find one wanting. Usually, those complaints come from the players who do care. Saying, “Some players care more about viability than parity” does not mean that there are no balance issues.

GW2 class design is based on philosophies of diversification rooted in other MMO’s. Those other MMO’s offer diverse classes and specs, and enforce trinity play. They also provide content balanced around needing that diversity. GW2 primarily offers content that minimizes the impact of diversity.

MMO effectiveness is all about winning fights. This means keeping your side up while taking the other side down. Many of the tools to negate damage in GW2 are available to all classes. High DPS is not. The class design philosophies are responsible for this disparity.

I’m not saying that people who want balance are wrong for wanting balance. I’m staying that when someone says “this is wrong and this is bad” well yeah…for some people. The people who care about it. Many don’t.

It’ll get fixed in time…but fixes take time. I’ve played so many MMOs so much more out of balance than this, it’s not funny. Sure there are problems…but the depth of those problems is greatly exaagerated, because other professions CAN do the content.

That’s just it. I don’t think it will get fixed, unless the devs adapt their design philosophies or make radical changes to the content — neither of which I think is in the cards. The current set-up, and tweaks to it based on the philosophies in place, is about all we can expect. If I’m right, there will always be gross imbalances in damage potential.

Well i do not think ppl should specialized in dmg out put tankly and supporting in effect ppl are trying to still play the game as if there is a 3 class type system and still running into the same problem. Take a thf as a class you can land a free stun drop in a burst dmg during that stun then pull out Sbow and start to help control the mob. Thf start to play all 3 rolls by doing this mixing burst dmg with the ability to control the mobs movement. You can run zerk war but if the mob live longer then 20 sec you will die as such a way and losing a lot of your dmg out put. Vs any real pve event that is more then just a dps rush this build is comply worthless.

I’m not debating how people should build their characters. I’m debating whether there should be a large damage output difference between two characters who have similar damage stats. Your post supports what I’m saying, because it highlights how a high-burst class can offer something other than damage, while other classes damage is kitten supposedly because they offer those options.

Build is a different matter than class. However, the fact that an all-out Berserker build generates numbers that are easily 3-4 times what a more balanced build can generate on the same class/weapon also magnifies the gap between classes. The other reason differences get magnified is critical chance + damage percentage.

But it becomes that way when your talking about dmg out put in PvE. If we have ppl who are going for more of a balance build and there an all in dmg type in the pt that all in dmg type will seemingly be better then the balanced build but that only purely for boss fights. When it comes to more then dmg the all in dmg types become unless and some times a liability.