Guild Wars 2

Yeah usually end up the same way. Overzealous zerks faceplant then me and a friend finish off the boss.

Most commonly it’s warriors laying there, dirtnapping. I would be tired too if I swung a sword like they do.

And still somehow those dirtnapping Berserker Warriors end up soloing whole dungeons.

I love people who use nothing but zerk gear in WvW (even my glass cannon ele has a couple PVT pieces). They’re a nearly endless source of badges. Only problem is they’re never worth any WXP.

SneakyErvin.3056:

Yeah usually end up the same way. Overzealous zerks faceplant then me and a friend finish off the boss.

Most commonly it’s warriors laying there, dirtnapping. I would be tired too if I swung a sword like they do.

Thank you for this post, because it describes 99% of all Zerker Wars. Most people don’t have any problem with people running zerker sets…it’s just when that person who has no idea how to stay alive with it.

He’s right though.
I built up a super strong dungeon build for my warrior with healing shouts, toughness, 20+ might stacks all the time and so on and so on.
In the end, berserker was still better because monsters died faster.

In theory yes, in practice – no…
Not everyone is perfect in this game and not everyone has 24/7 spare time to “get better” in every dungeon there is + WvW +sPvP in this game. If one can not survive, zerker gear is worthless. I run a war with 3k armor and ~28-30k health and I’m often the last man standing and many times are left to solo the last dungeon boss, when all the “standard” zerker teammates go down.
I also like the basic idea of being able to sustain some punishment and being able to run through trash mobs like they’re nothing, I can not do that with zerker gear as every smallest mistake can get me downed.

Arekai.5698:

He’s right though.
I built up a super strong dungeon build for my warrior with healing shouts, toughness, 20+ might stacks all the time and so on and so on.
In the end, berserker was still better because monsters died faster.

If the build you made was more fun, then it’s better for you than the one where “the monsters died faster.” In the end, this isn’t Math Wars 2, so any build is viable as long as you can make it work for you.

There are a great many players out there who do love maximizing DPS as a math game, and they are all entitled to their Berserker’s gear-I have no problem with that. The only thing is that such math is not actually “factual” for a great number of players who couldn’t care about doing things as fast or “efficiently” as possible if it means they have to sacrifice something more valuable to them (whether it is fun, individuality, etc.)

Also, the real problem I see with people preaching “DPS above all” is that people start believing it without actually trying other stuff, and what results is a lot of players dying way too fast not because Berserker’s gear is necessarily “bad”, but because it leaves ZERO margin for error during the most challenging encounters, and I don’t think the majority of the population is ready to handle the glass aspects of that cannon.

That said, as I said before, I disagree that non-berserker’s gear is “training gear” as many guides and people suggest. Berserker’s gear is not for “pros” but for people who like that playstyle. Someone may be a “pro” that only uses healing gear-he/she isn’t an idiot for doing so, nor does that mean that he/she doesn’t know how to dodge and all the silly stuff usually quoted to justify Berserker’s gear (really, don’t make excuses for Berserker’s stuff, just wear it if you want, but don’t claim it’s the one “superior way” to play the game, that’s all.)

To be fair, Berserker’s gear on a hard-hitting class is wonderful when backed by great support abilities granted by other Professions-it’s especially good if your teammates know what you do and help you survive to keep doing all that damage. Without that support, it’s still viable of course, but that glass is very fragile indeed. I don’t blame anyone for not wanting to use that gear, nor would I put their gaming skills into question. It’s a high risk, high reward playstyle that shouldn’t be forced on anyone, even though it works when properly executed.

As many others have mentioned, I have seen the results of players who went “full zerk warr” for CoF 1 only, and just can’t stop failing anywhere else. The morale of the story is: use gear because it works for you, not because it’s supposed to be the “best” for you as stated by players who may be very different than you are.

Berserker’s is all good and great, but not for 100% of the playerbase, and gear has no relation to skill anyway.

I find zerker gear boring. I want to be a meaty warrior who deals good damage and laughs in the face of my enemies.

PVT is the way to go. But even with that you still get one shots in places. GW2 has a lot of cheap moments.

Sometimes I think this game would be better if they just removed all the stats and made into a pure action game. If stacking PVT with soliders or dolyak doesn’t let hold off damage then what’s the point of even having it?

I believe this is why people end up just running zerker. You get one shotted either way so you might as well try to one shot right back.

Ezeriel.9574:

Why do people buy anything but berserker gear?

Some cleric geared ele giving you trouble? Use berserker gear.

Some bunker guard out there just wont die? Use berserker.

Some thief killing you in seconds? Use berserker and get the jump on him first!

..and if you get killed from AOE, just come to the forums and cry til they nerf AOE.

GW2’s shine is really starting to rub off.

For me it’s kinda the opposite, why do people buy berserker gear?
Being that squishy is not good in my opinion. But I prefer survivability over damage in almost every game.

LotusThief.4613:

I find zerker gear boring. I want to be a meaty warrior who deals good damage and laughs in the face of my enemies.

PVT is the way to go. But even with that you still get one shots in places. GW2 has a lot of cheap moments.

Sometimes I think this game would be better if they just removed all the stats and made into a pure action game. If stacking PVT with soliders or dolyak doesn’t let hold off damage then what’s the point of even having it?

I believe this is why people end up just running zerker. You get one shotted either way so you might as well try to one shot right back.

As an engineer with full knights, I can eat a 100b to the face and still walk away with a enough health to escape.

I think the real deal is that berserker gear has a direct effect on your skills, through dmg, however Vit, toughness, dont actually directly effect many skills. Even if toughness is useful, if it doesnt effect any actual skills, its going to be way more boring than berserker.

say for example, how long you could block was effected by toughness, or how much damage you could negate.

or if vitality effected condition duration, or how many conditions certain skills could remove.
essentially its a game that is played through ability use more than pure stats, so the stats that effect the effectiveness of ability use will always be the most attractive.

On the flip side, i will say that toughness and vit are probably very usefull. A person who can take a hit can do many usefull things, and tends to help a normal party a lot. Its just pretty boring

Ezeriel.9574:

Why do people buy anything but berserker gear?

Some cleric geared ele giving you trouble? Use berserker gear.

Some bunker guard out there just wont die? Use berserker.

Some thief killing you in seconds? Use berserker and get the jump on him first!

..and if you get killed from AOE, just come to the forums and cry til they nerf AOE.

GW2’s shine is really starting to rub off.

Lol, that is not true at all, especially NOT in pvp/wvw. I welcome any fight against a berserker geared class.

Berserker gear pve is only strong if the person who wears it is skilled. Others who wear it just end up dying 2-3 seconds into a boss fight – constantly.

Seveleniumus.5973:

In theory yes, in practice – no…
Not everyone is perfect in this game and not everyone has 24/7 spare time to “get better” in every dungeon there is + WvW +sPvP in this game. If one can not survive, zerker gear is worthless. I run a war with 3k armor and ~28-30k health and I’m often the last man standing and many times are left to solo the last dungeon boss, when all the “standard” zerker teammates go down.
I also like the basic idea of being able to sustain some punishment and being able to run through trash mobs like they’re nothing, I can not do that with zerker gear as every smallest mistake can get me downed.

If I can solo most of the dungeons with my Berserker Warrior that says something about being practical (with 5 guys it’s a lot more easier). You are feel free to try with your PVT-gear.
As you said, with Berserker-gear you have less room to make mistakes so people want to kill stuff as fast possible. Then if you have few guys rolling with low damage bunkers/tanks it gets much harder for glass-cannons because fight lasts longer. Also if you are supposed to be a tank and you aren’t protecting your teammates then what’s supposed to be your role?
Yes for skipping PVT-gear is obviously better because you aren’t dealing any damage, however all skips are quite easy.

Pukknub.7368:

For me it’s kinda the opposite, why do people buy berserker gear?
Being that squishy is not good in my opinion. But I prefer survivability over damage in almost every game.

In PvE, people just want to get it done fast.

Lafiel.9372:

—
Berserker gear pve is only strong if the person who wears it is skilled. Others who wear it just end up dying 2-3 seconds into a boss fight – constantly.

How much stronger do you think PVT-gear makes you? About 2 times stronger? So you last 4-6 seconds instead?

Pve wise, yes, damage is greater than anything else, cc is pointless, don’t need healing power if mobs are dead, don’t need toughness learn to dodge, get condition removal from group or kite until you can heal…wvw and sPvP though not so much, depends on the profession and player skill

I guess you guys are just uber-leet gamers who don’t make mistakes. I wish I could be just like you guys. You know, wearing tissue paper for armor, while dishing out tons of damage and never missing a dodge.

From my experience, a percentage of the player base is awesome, and a percentage of the playerbase sucks badly and most people are somewhere in the middle (like me).

Asssuming that the best players are a minority (which is a pretty good bet), that means that the best players would indeed be better off with beserker gear. But you can’t tell me all players are in the top 15-20 % in skill.

That’s why other sets of armor exist. I’m quite happy for all of you amazing berserker guys to play together, so I can play together with everyone else, and not have to worry about the pressure of being perfect in every dungeon.

More to the point, there are many MANY people who play MMOs who aren’t as good as they think they are. Spreading this zerker warriors are god myth fuels them into thinking that even though they play badly, they should still wear zerker gear. In fact, just the fact that cool people like those posting in this thread say it’s the most efficient insures a lot of really bad and mediocre players will be wearing zerker gear and blaming others when they go down.

Frankly, I’d rather be less impressive than you guys and have a bit of vitality and toughness…just in case I miss the occasional dodge.

Defensive Options:
- dodge rolls
- skills not linked to attributes (boon duration at best)
- right range at the right time, i.e. battlefield awareness

Offensive Options:
- activation of skills linked to attributes while being where they demand you to be in order to do damge.

Result 1:
In PvE all damage avoidable or too little of it (large dynamic events). Therefore boost offensive option as best as you can. Defensive option only suffers if you were playing under the assumption of getting hit. Insert player hybris here.

Result 2:
PvE creating players with wrong mindset. Not all damage avoidable in PvP against real human player. Hybris of zerker gear players will self-adjust over time.

Most likely solution:
Since defensive skill activations are still required, linking duration, recharge and/or efficiency to attributes is the potential gateway to push players off perma-zerker gear.

Which is never going to happen to put it mildly. Personally, I vote for complexer links between defensive skills and attributes any day, as well as an “armor change” button working the same way weapon change does.

Goodbye trinity, hello berzerker.

Flamenco.3894:

Goodbye trinity, hello berzerker.

Basically, this. There is no trinity in this game…because dps is all you need, especially in pve. And sometimes it is the only feasible approach.

As someone said above, the defensive stats should have more importance. Change invulnerabilty in vitality*x damage avoided, blocks parry for toughness/y seconds and so on, or something similar. Make healing power matter, instead of the near-useless stat that is now. And find a way to make condition damage on par of the direct one. Then we can have some variety, while being efficient.

Getting instantly downed in one hit while doing arah or fractals 25+… Yeaa, i will pass and stick to my Pow/tough/vit build

Homonavn.6348:

Getting instantly downed in one hit while doing arah or fractals 25+… Yeaa, i will pass and stick to my Pow/tough/vit build

True but any serious player will have a dps and tanker set of gear. I have at least 2 sets on 4 level 80’s and my main has 3 sets. I only used the tanker sets if I didn’t care about worse than usual drops. I don’t care what anyone says the more damage you do the better drops you can get.

I have tested two play styles, I have a Condition Warrior with a full Rampager set and a Turret Engineer with a mix of Rabid/Apothecary set.

While yes it is possible to do any content with a full glasscanon build, I saw something very particular, I was always able to be the last guy alive when I was playing with my Warrior. It is funny, because monsters weren’t realy paying attention to me while I was dishing out tons of damage. All I had to do was to watch out boss animations and dodge whenever I needed.

While on the other side of the fence, when I was playing with my Engineer, it was a whole different story. I could survive very well a lot of encounters, give a bit of support for my team and myself, but I also drew a lot more attention (wich is needed if I want my turrets to stay alive). During those fights a lot of my teammates surviability (playing glasscanon builds) was related to the fact I was kiting ennemies a lot, blinding them with smoke fields and stunning or immobilising them when needed. Able to soak up more damage also helped a lot when fighting veterants and champion NPCs and I see a very big difference whenever I go down and they need to stay alive on their own. It usualy don’t end well.

I heard a lot of “playing Zerker is more challenging, bla bla stuff”, to be truth, it isn’t. Yeah you surely are more fragile, but if you have any decent guy playing with toughness in your team it just get bland and boring and all you realy have to do is dodging away instant gib attacks and watch out for AoE. While that other guy with toughness has to do a lot more like checking multiple ennemies attack, check his cooldown and micro manadging his health while checking everything else people already have to do.

There is also an issue with people exploiting every single dongeons in this game. Everytime I do one of those instances, someone has to bypass some obstacle in some way or us an exploit to avoid a specific power or adds from a boss supposed to make the fight more “interesting”. I would love to see how well you zerkers would do if all those exploits were removed from the game. Would full zerkers team still do well? I’m not so sure about that depending on the fights… Would it still be possible, yes but it would requiere a lot more support utilities like reflects, blocks and all that kind of stuff.

Because zerkers are so easy to counter… In WvW and SPvP I know when I see a glass cannon it’s a free kill. Besides most people who run zerker gear have no idea how to run it and survive more than 3 seconds.

zerker gear is only useful assuming you know how to play the encounters. To say that zerker > everything is assuming that you know how to pve/pvp masterfully. I’ve seen people in zerker gear drop like flies in cof1 (which, you know, actually reduces overall dps since we waste 2 people to get him up [him and another to res]), and i’ve seen zerker people own in wvw. zerker gear rewards people for playing the best that they can, and punishes heavily if they suck at it. In the same manner, defensive gear are more forgiving if you fail, but less rewarding if you’re good at the game. Seems like a fair trade-off to me.

People fail to assume that just because one or everyone in the party is in zerker gear, they only need to 100b the mob once to kill it. A lot of mobs are not like this, especially boss encounters. The prob is cof1 is such a faceroll that the skill cap for players is very low and zerkers are indeed the most efficient. In a lot of other dungeons (AC, TA, CM for instance, where a lot of mobs have knockbacks, takedowns, aoe damage) it is very hard to pull off a full zerker party.

penatbater.4710:

zerker gear is only useful assuming you know how to play the encounters. To say that zerker > everything is assuming that you know how to pve/pvp masterfully. I’ve seen people in zerker gear drop like flies in cof1 (which, you know, actually reduces overall dps since we waste 2 people to get him up [him and another to res]), and i’ve seen zerker people own in wvw. zerker gear rewards people for playing the best that they can, and punishes heavily if they suck at it. In the same manner, defensive gear are more forgiving if you fail, but less rewarding if you’re good at the game. Seems like a fair trade-off to me.

People fail to assume that just because one or everyone in the party is in zerker gear, they only need to 100b the mob once to kill it. A lot of mobs are not like this, especially boss encounters. The prob is cof1 is such a faceroll that the skill cap for players is very low and zerkers are indeed the most efficient. In a lot of other dungeons (AC, TA, CM for instance, where a lot of mobs have knockbacks, takedowns, aoe damage) it is very hard to pull off a full zerker party.

Not necessarily hard. See my friend has a warrior in all zerker gear and my Ele is trained for max healing and has all apothecary gear with healing accessories and I can spam water heals on him and each splash is about 500 healing and the big heal can heal a ton so he can almost sit on a boss and dps and never go down.

Of course my drops if any are horrible with healing gear but zerker gear is always the best.

Drew.1865:

penatbater.4710:

zerker gear is only useful assuming you know how to play the encounters. To say that zerker > everything is assuming that you know how to pve/pvp masterfully. I’ve seen people in zerker gear drop like flies in cof1 (which, you know, actually reduces overall dps since we waste 2 people to get him up [him and another to res]), and i’ve seen zerker people own in wvw. zerker gear rewards people for playing the best that they can, and punishes heavily if they suck at it. In the same manner, defensive gear are more forgiving if you fail, but less rewarding if you’re good at the game. Seems like a fair trade-off to me.

People fail to assume that just because one or everyone in the party is in zerker gear, they only need to 100b the mob once to kill it. A lot of mobs are not like this, especially boss encounters. The prob is cof1 is such a faceroll that the skill cap for players is very low and zerkers are indeed the most efficient. In a lot of other dungeons (AC, TA, CM for instance, where a lot of mobs have knockbacks, takedowns, aoe damage) it is very hard to pull off a full zerker party.

Not necessarily hard. See my friend has a warrior in all zerker gear and my Ele is trained for max healing and has all apothecary gear with healing accessories and I can spam water heals on him and each splash is about 500 healing and the big heal can heal a ton so he can almost sit on a boss and dps and never go down.

Of course my drops if any are horrible with healing gear but zerker gear is always the best.

The question is, can you sustain the same party momentum (not necessarily healing him per se) with you in zerker gear as well? I’m sure you can. But the difference in ease will probably be evident, and one’s personal skill (and group skill for that matter) will be more fleshed out.

Ambrecombe.4398:

I have tested two play styles, I have a Condition Warrior with a full Rampager set and a Turret Engineer with a mix of Rabid/Apothecary set.

While yes it is possible to do any content with a full glasscanon build, I saw something very particular, I was always able to be the last guy alive when I was playing with my Warrior. It is funny, because monsters weren’t realy paying attention to me while I was dishing out tons of damage. All I had to do was to watch out boss animations and dodge whenever I needed.

While on the other side of the fence, when I was playing with my Engineer, it was a whole different story. I could survive very well a lot of encounters, give a bit of support for my team and myself, but I also drew a lot more attention (wich is needed if I want my turrets to stay alive). During those fights a lot of my teammates surviability (playing glasscanon builds) was related to the fact I was kiting ennemies a lot, blinding them with smoke fields and stunning or immobilising them when needed. Able to soak up more damage also helped a lot when fighting veterants and champion NPCs and I see a very big difference whenever I go down and they need to stay alive on their own. It usualy don’t end well.

Yeah, the aggro system is not exactly helping. If you happen to have just 1 more armor than the zerkers you end up being a mob magnet, no matter if you can handle it or not.

I swear i have seen mobs cross the room to get at me while multiple people are in melee with them. And that was with me plinking away as a staff necro at max range.

Recently i had the dubious fortune of accompanying some friends on a COF run. This with me playing a recently L80 engineer in a random hodgepodge of story gear, while they were rocking exotic sets. Even so i ended up the mob magnet, first with the slave driver effigy and then the acolyte room. The latter being particularly insane as i swear i had close to 10 mobs following me around.

penatbater.4710:

Drew.1865:

penatbater.4710:

zerker gear is only useful assuming you know how to play the encounters. To say that zerker > everything is assuming that you know how to pve/pvp masterfully. I’ve seen people in zerker gear drop like flies in cof1 (which, you know, actually reduces overall dps since we waste 2 people to get him up [him and another to res]), and i’ve seen zerker people own in wvw. zerker gear rewards people for playing the best that they can, and punishes heavily if they suck at it. In the same manner, defensive gear are more forgiving if you fail, but less rewarding if you’re good at the game. Seems like a fair trade-off to me.

People fail to assume that just because one or everyone in the party is in zerker gear, they only need to 100b the mob once to kill it. A lot of mobs are not like this, especially boss encounters. The prob is cof1 is such a faceroll that the skill cap for players is very low and zerkers are indeed the most efficient. In a lot of other dungeons (AC, TA, CM for instance, where a lot of mobs have knockbacks, takedowns, aoe damage) it is very hard to pull off a full zerker party.

Not necessarily hard. See my friend has a warrior in all zerker gear and my Ele is trained for max healing and has all apothecary gear with healing accessories and I can spam water heals on him and each splash is about 500 healing and the big heal can heal a ton so he can almost sit on a boss and dps and never go down.

Of course my drops if any are horrible with healing gear but zerker gear is always the best.

The question is, can you sustain the same party momentum (not necessarily healing him per se) with you in zerker gear as well? I’m sure you can. But the difference in ease will probably be evident, and one’s personal skill (and group skill for that matter) will be more fleshed out.

You’re going to laugh but with the way loot is given in this game there is just no reason reward wise to play in any other gear except zerker gear. That is just my opinion and I have played support which I prefer but there is no point in playing support unless you’re in wvw, a guild run or spvp.

Another thing about support is it makes the dungeon run take so much longer with how bad the dungeon mobs are set up in this game and the health pools. One person running support is just going to slow the group down and people are going to get one shot by a boss anyway. This is of course what Anet wants because slowing down rewards equals more gem purchases.

Drew.1865:

penatbater.4710:

Drew.1865:

penatbater.4710:

zerker gear is only useful assuming you know how to play the encounters. To say that zerker > everything is assuming that you know how to pve/pvp masterfully. I’ve seen people in zerker gear drop like flies in cof1 (which, you know, actually reduces overall dps since we waste 2 people to get him up [him and another to res]), and i’ve seen zerker people own in wvw. zerker gear rewards people for playing the best that they can, and punishes heavily if they suck at it. In the same manner, defensive gear are more forgiving if you fail, but less rewarding if you’re good at the game. Seems like a fair trade-off to me.

People fail to assume that just because one or everyone in the party is in zerker gear, they only need to 100b the mob once to kill it. A lot of mobs are not like this, especially boss encounters. The prob is cof1 is such a faceroll that the skill cap for players is very low and zerkers are indeed the most efficient. In a lot of other dungeons (AC, TA, CM for instance, where a lot of mobs have knockbacks, takedowns, aoe damage) it is very hard to pull off a full zerker party.

Not necessarily hard. See my friend has a warrior in all zerker gear and my Ele is trained for max healing and has all apothecary gear with healing accessories and I can spam water heals on him and each splash is about 500 healing and the big heal can heal a ton so he can almost sit on a boss and dps and never go down.

Of course my drops if any are horrible with healing gear but zerker gear is always the best.

The question is, can you sustain the same party momentum (not necessarily healing him per se) with you in zerker gear as well? I’m sure you can. But the difference in ease will probably be evident, and one’s personal skill (and group skill for that matter) will be more fleshed out.

You’re going to laugh but with the way loot is given in this game there is just no reason reward wise to play in any other gear except zerker gear. That is just my opinion and I have played support which I prefer but there is no point in playing support unless you’re in wvw, a guild run or spvp.

Another thing about support is it makes the dungeon run take so much longer with how bad the dungeon mobs are set up in this game and the health pools. One person running support is just going to slow the group down and people are going to get one shot by a boss anyway. This is of course what Anet wants because slowing down rewards equals more gem purchases.

afaik you only need to deal a certain threshold of damage per mob to be eligible for loot. Even on my support guard, I can dish out enough damage for me to be able to loot. And let’s face it, most loot from mobs is trash anyway. And support only makes the dungeon longer only if everyone knows the dungeon like the back of their hand, know the mechanics, when to dodge, activate utilities, etc. If you’re still learning, having a support-oriented playstyle might be better. Once you “graduate” from a dungeon/encounter (like most people with the old ac), you can opt for a zerker build to increase efficiency.

I’d actually reckon there’s no reason not to run full damage in wvw and spvp, mainly coz wvw is a zergfest anyway, and spvp (not tpvp) boils down to two basic builds: damage (whether direct damage or condi damage) and bunkers.

penatbater.4710:

Drew.1865:

penatbater.4710:

Drew.1865:

penatbater.4710:

zerker gear is only useful assuming you know how to play the encounters. To say that zerker > everything is assuming that you know how to pve/pvp masterfully. I’ve seen people in zerker gear drop like flies in cof1 (which, you know, actually reduces overall dps since we waste 2 people to get him up [him and another to res]), and i’ve seen zerker people own in wvw. zerker gear rewards people for playing the best that they can, and punishes heavily if they suck at it. In the same manner, defensive gear are more forgiving if you fail, but less rewarding if you’re good at the game. Seems like a fair trade-off to me.

People fail to assume that just because one or everyone in the party is in zerker gear, they only need to 100b the mob once to kill it. A lot of mobs are not like this, especially boss encounters. The prob is cof1 is such a faceroll that the skill cap for players is very low and zerkers are indeed the most efficient. In a lot of other dungeons (AC, TA, CM for instance, where a lot of mobs have knockbacks, takedowns, aoe damage) it is very hard to pull off a full zerker party.

Not necessarily hard. See my friend has a warrior in all zerker gear and my Ele is trained for max healing and has all apothecary gear with healing accessories and I can spam water heals on him and each splash is about 500 healing and the big heal can heal a ton so he can almost sit on a boss and dps and never go down.

Of course my drops if any are horrible with healing gear but zerker gear is always the best.

The question is, can you sustain the same party momentum (not necessarily healing him per se) with you in zerker gear as well? I’m sure you can. But the difference in ease will probably be evident, and one’s personal skill (and group skill for that matter) will be more fleshed out.

You’re going to laugh but with the way loot is given in this game there is just no reason reward wise to play in any other gear except zerker gear. That is just my opinion and I have played support which I prefer but there is no point in playing support unless you’re in wvw, a guild run or spvp.

Another thing about support is it makes the dungeon run take so much longer with how bad the dungeon mobs are set up in this game and the health pools. One person running support is just going to slow the group down and people are going to get one shot by a boss anyway. This is of course what Anet wants because slowing down rewards equals more gem purchases.

afaik you only need to deal a certain threshold of damage per mob to be eligible for loot. Even on my support guard, I can dish out enough damage for me to be able to loot. And let’s face it, most loot from mobs is trash anyway. And support only makes the dungeon longer only if everyone knows the dungeon like the back of their hand, know the mechanics, when to dodge, activate utilities, etc. If you’re still learning, having a support-oriented playstyle might be better. Once you “graduate” from a dungeon/encounter (like most people with the old ac), you can opt for a zerker build to increase efficiency.

I’d actually reckon there’s no reason not to run full damage in wvw and spvp, mainly coz wvw is a zergfest anyway, and spvp (not tpvp) boils down to two basic builds: damage (whether direct damage or condi damage) and bunkers.

I run full healing support in wvw zergs and you wouldn’t believe the healing and with dagger dagger I can make thieves really angry so support is fun in wvw just not rewarding as far as loot is concerned.

I see a few arguments that deal on opinion here and there. This isn’t really about opinion. It’s about how the game is designed. The game is designed using player skill as the base, with stats used to bolster player skill. In most other mmorpgs it’s the exact opposite, with stats as a base and player skill used to boost the effectiveness of those stats.

It’s simple. In other games your gear is there to make up for your mistakes, you can take the hits, you can face tank, you automatically block on a percentage, you automatically dodge on a percentage, all based on gear. All you have to do is run your rotation, count on others people gear to heal you while they run their rotation, and occasionally move from spot A to spot B.

In this game it’s on you. It’s about your skill with your gear enhancing those skills you have as a gamer and those you currently have slotted. Power and crit are the only attributes which scale well with skills, either yours or your characters. Toughness and vitality go directly against the game’s design and fall back on the other game’s design, which is gear over players skill and thats why they don’t work as well. Healing power scales somewhere in the middle, but is still not very active. Condition dmg is good in pvp against some player types and open world mobs, not as effective in dungeons.

Toughness, vitality, and healing power need to scale and be linked to player skill and character skill in compelling ways in order to be used as effectively as P/C does now. At the moment in the current metagame, they are only a crutch, or useful in only some situations. P/C is useful in all situations.

This isn’t about elitism, this isn’t about player hubris, this isn’t about farming dungeon paths easier, this isn’t about bragging rights.
It’s about what works with in game mechanics the way they are set up, it’s about the way the game is designed, and about wanting compelling reasons to have different armor sets (besides being one shotted). The game is set up to encourage player skill and active defense, not face tanking and huge health pools.

Zerker is not better than everything else…
its just the meta. There are people that try different things and find really good combinations of class/gear/builds out there… But if there are not 100+ youtube videos explaining the whole thing, then its not very known…

Its amazing what you can do with combo fields in a organized group

Wethospu.6437:

And still somehow those dirtnapping Berserker Warriors end up soloing whole dungeons.

No they dont. You are talking about a select amount of zerk warriors that actually know how to play in their zerk gear, not dirtnappers.

And regarding the “zerk > everything else”, pre the guild mission patch I ran with a very small guild, we had a 5 man that did fractals, switched one guy from time to time depending if our regular was on or not.

Our group was made up of a tanky warrior, my engi, a guardian, a mesmer and then another engi or mesmer depending on who was on. We never had issues with dps, 3 of us were full out zerk at the time, my engi, the guardian and the mesmer. Still we managed to take bosses down very quickly.

Dredge suit/Elemental usually died during the second cauldron drop.
Old Tom died after the second switch.

And so on…

This was with classes that are said to be weak when it comes to damage in PvE or damage in general. I’ve been in plenty of full zerk groups that just fail over and over, because people just die.

A dead person deals zero damage.

@killcannon.2576: You forget that toughness helps with aggro control, something that adds alot for someone going the support route. Rabid necros for instance are aggro magnets and can take a good beating while still dealing nice damage. If you are very confident with avoiding attacks through dodge and other means, toughness will benefit your group greatly, since those that might not be so great at dodging will have aggro less often. On a warrior it’s just amazing, since you have infinite dodge juice.

Balance is the best way to go.

No actually, I’m just talking about myself.
Also there’s nothing magical here (like opinions). If you survive easily you have too much defense and could have more offense and do things faster.

Anyways I’m bit curious, how do you people know everyone melting in seconds is running Berserkers or if pvt-gear would even make any difference? Do you ask them to link their gear? Play with them again when they use pvt-gear?

SneakyErvin.3056:

Wethospu.6437:

And still somehow those dirtnapping Berserker Warriors end up soloing whole dungeons.

No they dont. You are talking about a select amount of zerk warriors that actually know how to play in their zerk gear, not dirtnappers.

And regarding the “zerk > everything else”, pre the guild mission patch I ran with a very small guild, we had a 5 man that did fractals, switched one guy from time to time depending if our regular was on or not.

Our group was made up of a tanky warrior, my engi, a guardian, a mesmer and then another engi or mesmer depending on who was on. We never had issues with dps, 3 of us were full out zerk at the time, my engi, the guardian and the mesmer. Still we managed to take bosses down very quickly.

Dredge suit/Elemental usually died during the second cauldron drop.
Old Tom died after the second switch.

And so on…

This was with classes that are said to be weak when it comes to damage in PvE or damage in general. I’ve been in plenty of full zerk groups that just fail over and over, because people just die.

A dead person deals zero damage.

@killcannon.2576: You forget that toughness helps with aggro control, something that adds alot for someone going the support route. Rabid necros for instance are aggro magnets and can take a good beating while still dealing nice damage. If you are very confident with avoiding attacks through dodge and other means, toughness will benefit your group greatly, since those that might not be so great at dodging will have aggro less often. On a warrior it’s just amazing, since you have infinite dodge juice.

Balance is the best way to go.

Aggro : http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aggro
Base toughness is only one way out of many to manage aggro.
Dodging, vigor, speed, stability, protection, cc skills, other active skills are all greater than using toughness as a simple stat to mitigate damage. In other words: active defense> toughness stat.
I am not arguing that people who use toughness and vit are bad players. I am saying that tough and vit don’t scale as well as pow/crit. I want more reasons in game to use tough/vit. I want them tied to skills, I want them tied to dodging in a compelling way, I want them to affect my stability times, my prot times, cc skills. Power and crit affect many, many skills. How many skills can you name that tough/vit affect?

SneakyErvin.3056:

Yeah usually end up the same way. Overzealous zerks faceplant then me and a friend finish off the boss.

Most commonly it’s warriors laying there, dirtnapping. I would be tired too if I swung a sword like they do.

and those bads would die regardless of what gear they are in. point of the discussion is with skilled players bersker > all.

Wethospu.6437:

No actually, I’m just talking about myself.
Also there’s nothing magical here (like opinions). If you survive easily you have too much defense and could have more offense and do things faster.

Anyways I’m bit curious, how do you people know everyone melting in seconds is running Berserkers or if pvt-gear would even make any difference? Do you ask them to link their gear? Play with them again when they use pvt-gear?

So you are a dirtnapping warrior soloing exps? How does that add up? No j/k, but then yes you are part of the exception when it comes to dirtnapping, congrats to you, but it doesnt mean berserk gear is superior to everything else.

And regarding second paragraph. Because the difference in survivability is very obvious between zerk and mixed zerk+survival gear. Some things just doesnt one hit someone in mixed gear. I’ve noticed it easily myself when I made the changes to my gear. Things that would one hit me in zerk gear just shaves off part of my health instead.

So if someone gets one shot, they most likely are in full zerk gear. Also you say people have too much defense if they survive easily, but where does the line go? I find it’s nice to have alot of dodge juice, I also find it very nice to have enough toughness to survive if I do get hit, that way I will deal constant damage instead of going down on an unlucky hit.

As I said before, balance is the best way. In my opinion atleast. If someone gets downed, they deal less damage and their group needs to stop dealing damage in order to get the person up. And this happens alot.

@killcannon.2576: They do effect skills, your enemies skill, they make them weaker or force them to attacking you more times.

@Sprawl.3891: Nice subtle way of claiming you are skilled. Still other attributes would make it easier for the rest of the group, so you just come off as sounding selfish and ignorant to the greater good of the situation.

And food for thought. In WvW, what use is there for full zerk gear really? All you need is enough damage to make your enemy go to zero, anything above that is wasted and would be better spent on defensive stats to give you a higher chance to not reach zero as quickly. I guess it’s something that has stuck with me since WoW and SWToR, resilience and exprtise, it really is the same effect you get from toughness/armor.

It worked brilliantly in those games aswell. Here it’s just not a special PvP set, here people decide if they want glasscannon PvE gear (zerk) or resilience PvP gear (added toughness). Same concept. Expertise however increased damage done aswell as reduicing damage recieved, so 2 people with the same expertise didnt get a real boost versus eachother.

FourthVariety.5463:

Most likely solution:
Since defensive skill activations are still required, linking duration, recharge and/or efficiency to attributes is the potential gateway to push players off perma-zerker gear.

This is rather naive because you simply ignore what the stats do: offensive stats affect your attack skills against the foe, defensive stats affect the enemy’s attack skills against you.

Suggesting all defensive skills work twice, on your skills and on the enemy skills would be equivalent of suggesting berserker stats also affecting enemy attacks somehow because they only do anything to your own.

The Dunning-Kruger Effect

Unskilled people consistently overestimate their own skill level in all walks of life and at all tasks. Highly skilled people consistently underestimate their own skill level, since they are better equipped to see mistakes that others would miss.

That Zerk Warrior in your dungeon group that gets face-planted every boss and then blames lag (or his newbie group mates) doesn’t know that he’s bad, and wouldn’t believe anyone if they told him.

As for stats, well nobody is going to like the answer but here it is. Defensive stats exist to allow you to survive auto attacks. That’s it. Taking NPC auto attacks to the face isn’t “bad gameplay.” It’s just how GW2 is designed. You eat the weaker attacks and save endurance for the big “Special Moves.” There’s no magic super skill level about it. It’s just balancing endurance, incoming damage, and heal cooldowns. Zerker gear doesn’t normally allow you to do this, so the prevailing notion is to dodge/block/invuln everything and DPS the mobs down. This works great in a well-oiled guild group where everyone knows what everyone else is doing. In PUGs it’s pretty awful most of the time. Warriors can get away with being squishy a bit better simply because they get a bit of free HP and Armor from being Warriors , wearing plate, and having lots of access to Vigor.

I hate running full DPS gear because I PUG a lot. PUG Zerkers are rarely as skilled as they think they are, and I find it more useful to still be alive to rally them.

And on the topic of Healing output being bad in this game, I hope everyone realizes that Healing efficiency is based on 2 stats. If I heal my group members the effective healing is based on my Healing Power and their Armor value. Trying to use heals on someone in glass-cannon gear is beyond a waste of time.

And on the topic of Healing output being bad in this game, I hope everyone realizes that Healing efficiency is based on 2 stats. If I heal my group members the effective healing is based on my Healing Power and their Armor value. Trying to use heals on someone in glass-cannon gear is beyond a waste of time.

Not that I disbelieve you, but where exactly is the information that supports this statement?

Edit: Ahh, nm. It’s a made up thing. Efficiency is an opinion based off the premise that “Since toughness builds will live longer, and take less damage, it’s more efficient to heal them,lulz” Same can be said that it’s only efficient to heal skilled players versus non skilled because they will live longer/take less damage. It’s a cherry picked data example of healing, same thing goes on in other mmorpgs. Does nothing to actual output heal numbers.

killcannon.2576:

Not that I disbelieve you, but where exactly is the information that supports this statement?

AFAIK damage reduction can be viewed as “addition” to the one’s HP (10k HP, 50% DR = 15k EHP), so from the same HP healed, high damage reduction char will get more than lower one.

OTOH, healing condition damage will be identical regardless to the build as they go directly after HP pool.

Guardian is my main.
Full Cleric armor + Ascended rings.
I deal s!*t for damage (3-3.5k AoE GS skill) and really no one needs my heal when I’m playing with pugs – Dungeons and FoTM.

Started a Warrior a week ago, because glass cannons is the way to go in this game.
Damage > Everything else.

Nick.6972:

really no one needs my heal when I’m playing with pugs

Healing, maybe, but bringing stability, retaliation, blocks, might, condition removal, … will help — PUG or not PUG.

nekitten234:

killcannon.2576:

Not that I disbelieve you, but where exactly is the information that supports this statement?

AFAIK damage reduction can be viewed as “addition” to the one’s HP (10k HP, 50% DR = 15k EHP), so from the same HP healed, high damage reduction char will get more than lower one.

OTOH, healing condition damage will be identical regardless to the build as they go directly after HP pool.

This. It has nothing to do with player skill. It’s just how the stats work. If you take 40% less damage, then all healing you receive is worth 40% more.

Conditions ignore armor, so they shift the value from Damage Reduction to Healing Power. Also, they can be cleansed most of the time.

I find it’s often far less hassle when a party is all running relatively balanced builds with a bit of defensive stats rather than all glass-cannons. It doesn’t add all that much time to (perfect) runs, but makes the party far less vulnerable to bad luck and mistakes.

killcannon.2576:

And on the topic of Healing output being bad in this game, I hope everyone realizes that Healing efficiency is based on 2 stats. If I heal my group members the effective healing is based on my Healing Power and their Armor value. Trying to use heals on someone in glass-cannon gear is beyond a waste of time.

Not that I disbelieve you, but where exactly is the information that supports this statement?

Edit: Ahh, nm. It’s a made up thing. Efficiency is an opinion based off the premise that “Since toughness builds will live longer, and take less damage, it’s more efficient to heal them,lulz” Same can be said that it’s only efficient to heal skilled players versus non skilled because they will live longer/take less damage. It’s a cherry picked data example of healing, same thing goes on in other mmorpgs. Does nothing to actual output heal numbers.

Holy kitten derp batman. Way to completely not understand anything ever.

Healing efficiency is based on three things, the gross healing done, the relative rate at which those hp are lost, and the maximum hp pool remaining to heal. It’s really not that difficult a concept, if you heal someone for 1000 hp/sec while they’re losing 2000 hp/sec your efficiency is 50%. If you heal someone for 1000 hp/sec (same skill, same healing power) while they’re losing 1500 hp/sec (better toughness) your efficiency is 67%. Finally, if you’re healing someone for 1000 hp/sec while they’re losing 500 hp/sec, your efficiency is 200% while their HP isn’t full and 0% while it is.

There’s absolutely nothing “opinion” about it. However, you’d have to be a complete know-nothing to ever even consider thinking that “hurr-durr bigger heal number is are teh better one cause big number good.”

PinCushion.7390:

The Dunning-Kruger Effect

I have seen a few people reference this while having heated discussions on the internet. It may be the most arrogant, condescending thing you can due while debating, as you’re essentially saying, “I know you think you’re right, but it’s just because you fall into the category of ignorant people who think they’re right, but really aren’t.”

So much for intelligent debate.

Ezeriel.9574:

Why do people buy anything but berserker gear?

Some cleric geared ele giving you trouble? Use berserker gear.

Some bunker guard out there just wont die? Use berserker.

Some thief killing you in seconds? Use berserker and get the jump on him first!

..and if you get killed from AOE, just come to the forums and cry til they nerf AOE.

GW2’s shine is really starting to rub off.

Game mechanics need looking at, its pretty well known..at least with the player base..

Facepunch.5710:

PinCushion.7390:

The Dunning-Kruger Effect

I have seen a few people reference this while having heated discussions on the internet. It may be the most arrogant, condescending thing you can due while debating, as you’re essentially saying, “I know you think you’re right, but it’s just because you fall into the category of ignorant people who think they’re right, but really aren’t.”

So much for intelligent debate.

I don’t actually think, from my point of view, that I’d used that for the argument itself. I would however use it in regards to the number of zerker warriors out there who think they’re a whole lot better than they are.

I’ve met a few. It’s quite hilarious.

Facepunch.5710:

PinCushion.7390:

The Dunning-Kruger Effect

I have seen a few people reference this while having heated discussions on the internet. It may be the most arrogant, condescending thing you can due while debating, as you’re essentially saying, “I know you think you’re right, but it’s just because you fall into the category of ignorant people who think they’re right, but really aren’t.”

So much for intelligent debate.

I follow “One thing I know, is that I know nothing” and is why most of the time I use ‘I think’ ( or something along similar lines ) in a sentence even when im absolutely sure im right

Syeria.4812:

killcannon.2576:

And on the topic of Healing output being bad in this game, I hope everyone realizes that Healing efficiency is based on 2 stats. If I heal my group members the effective healing is based on my Healing Power and their Armor value. Trying to use heals on someone in glass-cannon gear is beyond a waste of time.

Not that I disbelieve you, but where exactly is the information that supports this statement?

Edit: Ahh, nm. It’s a made up thing. Efficiency is an opinion based off the premise that “Since toughness builds will live longer, and take less damage, it’s more efficient to heal them,lulz” Same can be said that it’s only efficient to heal skilled players versus non skilled because they will live longer/take less damage. It’s a cherry picked data example of healing, same thing goes on in other mmorpgs. Does nothing to actual output heal numbers.

Holy kitten kitten batman. Way to completely not understand anything ever.

Healing efficiency is based on three things, the gross healing done, the relative rate at which those hp are lost, and the maximum hp pool remaining to heal. It’s really not that difficult a concept, if you heal someone for 1000 hp/sec while they’re losing 2000 hp/sec your efficiency is 50%. If you heal someone for 1000 hp/sec (same skill, same healing power) while they’re losing 1500 hp/sec (better toughness) your efficiency is 67%. Finally, if you’re healing someone for 1000 hp/sec while they’re losing 500 hp/sec, your efficiency is 200% while their HP isn’t full and 0% while it is.

There’s absolutely nothing “opinion” about it. However, you’d have to be a complete know-nothing to ever even consider thinking that “hurr-durr bigger heal number is are teh better one cause big number good.”

It’s a holdover from stat over skill based gameplay made popular in other mmorpgs. It bears more importance in those games than it does here. Few things: No dedicated heal class here, Toughness stat takes a backseat to active defense abilities, healing a skillful player can have as much or more of an impact than healing the person with the highest toughness or vitality, you rely as much on your own abilities and your skill at when to use them as you do your teammates.

Healing efficiency is a made up thing created to make support builds feel better about themselves. They put the pressure on other teammates to build a certain way so that their heals and support can shine through. Just another attempt to return the trinity to the game, and a thinly veiled one. Heals build, tank build, then others dps. It’s not necessary, and honestly has very little impact here. Five engies can run a dungeon and complete it, five warriors can, five of anything can with any type of build they want. It all comes down to time spent.

Again, not arguing that other builds are worthless or pointless. Just that those two stats are not as compelling in the metagame as P/C. It’s good to have some toughness, and it’s good to have some vitality. But you don’t see builds that eschew power and crit totally like you see builds that do the same to toughness and vit. And it’s not because the players who chose to go that route are stupid or elitist.

Vayne.8563:

Asssuming that the best players are a minority (which is a pretty good bet), that means that the best players would indeed be better off with beserker gear. But you can’t tell me all players are in the top 15-20 % in skill.

The reality is more like 1% can pull off a tissue-paper build, and 15% claim they can but end up doing more harm to their groups than good by facerolling on so many pulls.

Its a bit like well… supporting the rich on the believe that you too will one day be rich, when in reality only 1% ever get there.

All these people championing Berserker gear then come back and complain that damage in this game can one-shot you (nothing can if you gear more balanced. There are no one-shots in GW2. NONE. Period), and then complain when exploits that let them skip half a dungeon get patched, and so on…
- Because only 1% of them can actually handle what amounts to a bad gear choice while still running content properly.

The rest aspire, and so give that 1% props, and then rage and blame when they faceplant.

Ambrecombe.4398:

While on the other side of the fence, when I was playing with my Engineer, it was a whole different story. I could survive very well a lot of encounters, give a bit of support for my team and myself, but I also drew a lot more attention (wich is needed if I want my turrets to stay alive). During those fights a lot of my teammates surviability (playing glasscanon builds) was related to the fact I was kiting ennemies a lot, blinding them with smoke fields and stunning or immobilising them when needed. Able to soak up more damage also helped a lot when fighting veterants and champion NPCs and I see a very big difference whenever I go down and they need to stay alive on their own. It usualy don’t end well.

Yep.

My guardian and my warrior both end up in the front and attracting a lot of attention when I PUG. When I do guild runs its more balanced because we don’t have zerkers in our guild (that I’ve spotted). We also don’t use exploits though we -do- run through some non-boss hallways (with mixed results and a self reminder to look into my warrior on that).

In PUGs, if I do go down, the team is going to faceplant. The only doesn’t happen when there is another teammate also running a balanced build – and in those cases the pulls are largely us balanced folks trading the support around while the glass canons faceplant on some AOE hit.

But I’m also very often the last one up. Quite often not only the last one up, but also I will end up resetting the encounter and walking back in doing rezzes on some people.

That even happens on my light armor characters. I’ve taken a level 40 elementalist with a pack of 80s… and yep, I had most of the aggro, did most of the resets, and never died. Sometimes even finishing off a single mob from a pack before resetting (as in, doing my share of damage also).

Having a balanced build means I can adapt to the situation.