Guild Wars 2

seems to be the case OniGiri.9461 but again knowing this will not change how most of us feel

thefinnster.6904:

seems to be the case OniGiri.9461 but again knowing this will not change how most of us feel

well no one can help you with that.

If a group of players felt offended about the traiding post – youd expect Arenanet to do something about that too?

At some point you should start being reasonable

OniGiri.9461:

thefinnster.6904:

seems to be the case OniGiri.9461 but again knowing this will not change how most of us feel

well no one can help you with that.

If a group of players felt offended about the traiding post – youd expect Arenanet to do something about that too?

At some point you should start being reasonable

if i was a minority then yeah i should just get with the programe or gtfo but the player base is prety split in its opinion of dps meters guess this varys depending on the circles you run in
but rather than make an unpopular suggestion like saying lets ban dps metters im aiming for something to keep everyone happy. As it stands Anet has made an unpopular decision and has offended some of us by allowing this intrusive form of squad monitoring equaly some are prety happy being given dps meters and would be unhappy if they where taken away
i dont realy see many options on the table and think my suggestion would be the simplest way to go other than changeing policy to only allow dps meters that calculate personal dps or shares info via networking like BDGM

thefinnster.6904:

OniGiri.9461:

thefinnster.6904:

seems to be the case OniGiri.9461 but again knowing this will not change how most of us feel

well no one can help you with that.

If a group of players felt offended about the traiding post – youd expect Arenanet to do something about that too?

At some point you should start being reasonable

if i was a minority then yeah i should just get with the programe or gtfo but the player base is prety split in its opinion of dps meters guess this varys depending on the circles you run in
but rather than make an unpopular suggestion like saying lets ban dps metters im aiming for something to keep everyone happy. As it stands Anet has made an unpopular decision and has offended some of us by allowing this intrusive form of squad monitoring equaly some are prety happy being given dps meters and would be unhappy if they where taken away
i dont realy see many options on the table and think my suggestion would be the simplest way to go other than changeing policy to only allow dps meters that calculate personal dps or shares info via networking like BDGM

Yes finding an optimal solution is what we should aim for.

But i can tell what will happen in the case that only meters like bgdm are allowed.
Thats the moment when you will see real exclusion. “You are hiding your dps → Kick”.

I dont see how this is better

thefinnster.6904:

As it stands Anet has made an unpopular decision and has offended some of us by allowing this intrusive form of squad monitoring equaly some are prety happy being given dps meters and would be unhappy if they where taken away
i dont realy see many options on the table and think my suggestion would be the simplest way to go other than changeing policy to only allow dps meters that calculate personal dps or shares info via networking like BDGM

Players have asked ANet to create an in-game meter for years. ANet did not add one. However, ANet has always left problems out there for players to solve. There is a player-based solution that would allow you to avoid squads that are using meters, you just don’t want to use it because doing so would be inconvenient for you.

thefinnster.6904:

Sykper.6583 feel better now you got that out your system?
depsite what you think Anet like any other company its policys need to be in acordance with the law and it dosent matter what country you live in they all have laws to protect your privacy thats why Anet has such a thing as a privacy policy in the first place and it is not just something they made up as they went along it is based on law’s that even they must follow
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/arenanet-privacy-policy/

Anet are not the all powerfull company you piant them out to be they do not have total control over my private info and canot do anything they like with it as you claim

The privacy policy refers to your personal information (your name, address, contact details and so on).

The data the game generates and uses (including all combat data) is not your private information. In fact you don’t own it, ArenaNet do, they create it and share it as required (your combat data is not actually your data at all).

thefinnster.6904:

Sykper.6583 feel better now you got that out your system?
depsite what you think Anet like any other company its policys need to be in acordance with the law and it dosent matter what country you live in they all have laws to protect your privacy thats why Anet has such a thing as a privacy policy in the first place and it is not just something they made up as they went along it is based on law’s that even they must follow
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/arenanet-privacy-policy/

Anet are not the all powerfull company you piant them out to be they do not have total control over my private info and canot do anything they like with it as you claim

A character’s dps in game is not your private information.

That said, those making the argument that ANet surely had their legal team look into matters and so must be on solid ground are being naive. Companies, with more money than Anet to spend on legal counsel, make mistakes, or outright flaunt the law with some degree of frequency. That doesnt seem to apply here, but the, “their lawyers signed off on it so they arent doing anything wrong,” is silly.

IndigoSundown.5419:

thefinnster.6904:

As it stands Anet has made an unpopular decision and has offended some of us by allowing this intrusive form of squad monitoring equaly some are prety happy being given dps meters and would be unhappy if they where taken away
i dont realy see many options on the table and think my suggestion would be the simplest way to go other than changeing policy to only allow dps meters that calculate personal dps or shares info via networking like BDGM

Players have asked ANet to create an in-game meter for years. ANet did not add one. However, ANet has always left problems out there for players to solve. There is a player-based solution that would allow you to avoid squads that are using meters, you just don’t want to use it because doing so would be inconvenient for you.

This.

Not sure what all the drama is about. I would not want to play with anyone who would kick over DPS anyway, so I am not losing out on anything. Why make a fuss because someone you do not want to play with, won’t let you play with them?

thefinnster.6904:

Sykper.6583 feel better now you got that out your system?
depsite what you think Anet like any other company its policys need to be in acordance with the law and it dosent matter what country you live in they all have laws to protect your privacy thats why Anet has such a thing as a privacy policy in the first place and it is not just something they made up as they went along it is based on law’s that even they must follow
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/arenanet-privacy-policy/

Anet are not the all powerfull company you piant them out to be they do not have total control over my private info and canot do anything they like with it as you claim

The damage your character does in game, in fact ANYTHING related to your characters metrics such as number of deaths, equipped items/traits, etc. Has nothing to do with your privacy. Because all of that information is not yours. You are not entitled to any privacy with that information because you do not own it, arenanet does. Any information regarding your characters that they keep hidden is done because they choose to do so, not because they have to do so. The privacy policy is regarding information of yours that you do own, things like your email address, your real name, your credit card information. You have no ownership of your dps, your character’s build, or even your account.

I thought the DPS meters only work for those actually using the meters, since the data is communicated via a central server.

In other words, other players in your squad cannot “sniff” your DPS because they use a DPS meter. You’d have to use the same DPS meter too.

The visibility of damage data within a party may be different. If you can see other players damage in the log, then it’s visible. Otherwise I’d say it’s the same as being in a squad — you’d have to be running the DPS meter plugin.

thefinnster.6904:

OniGiri.9461:

thefinnster.6904:

seems to be the case OniGiri.9461 but again knowing this will not change how most of us feel

well no one can help you with that.

If a group of players felt offended about the traiding post – youd expect Arenanet to do something about that too?

At some point you should start being reasonable

if i was a minority then yeah i should just get with the programe or gtfo but the player base is prety split in its opinion of dps meters guess this varys depending on the circles you run in

You have to remember that the tool was designed for Raids, so the group of players that the discussion is relevant for, is the raiding community. if anyone kicks you for bad dps in fractals or dungeons, then they’re stupid people and you shouldn’t have associated with them anyway. But we’re talking about raids, but I honestly believe that the majority of the raiding community agrees that if you sign up for a DPS role, then there should be nothing wrong with a tool that proves whether or not you’re actually DPS’ing

juno.1840:

I thought the DPS meters only work for those actually using the meters, since the data is communicated via a central server.

In other words, other players in your squad cannot “sniff” your DPS because they use a DPS meter. You’d have to use the same DPS meter too.

The visibility of damage data within a party may be different. If you can see other players damage in the log, then it’s visible. Otherwise I’d say it’s the same as being in a squad — you’d have to be running the DPS meter plugin.

Different meters handle this differently. Some only show dps of people in group running the same meter and some show (estimated) dps of everyone in the group.
The fuss i believe is caused by the one showing your dps without you giving your consent.

Which is nonsene imo.

thefinnster.6904:

For those of you that think contemplateing the legal ramifications of dps meters are insane take a moment to consider this dont you think Anet had there legal team look in to it before given it the green light ?
But apparently its insane for me to think about it and want to question it, take your head outa your ase Sykper.6583 and look at the biger picture.

I only bring this stuff up coz i genuinely dont know where i stand on just what Anet consider to be private info and whats not
despite what most of you think loging in and clicking acept dose not just give Anet blanket permission to do what they like with our PRIVATE DATA they do have an obligation to protect certain stuf i am simply curious to know where that privacy ends.
i mean what next apps to read our private whispers coz Anet green lighted it and its there data ?
prety sure all of you would be kittened at that if it happend and not so quick to argue that it is there data to do with as they please

I don’t think you even know what private data means. The only private data Anet has from you is your email and any contact information you give them if you save it in the gem store. If they are giving out this information to other players, by all means go ahead and bring it up in court. You would have a case there. That is YOUR data and you have agreed to share it with them under certain restrictions. Anything generated by their game, even when you are the one playing and generating that data is theirs. That answers your question as to where your privacy begins and ends, and this was already answered earlier in the thread.

And yes this includes ‘private’ whispers hosted, composed and sent on their hardware with their software. Would I like it? No, but that doesn’t mean they don’t have the legal right.

Moonyeti.3296 this is exactly the point i was makeing Sykper.6583 makes out Anet is all powerfull and can do anything they like with any any and all of the data at there disposal but we know otherwise thankfully there are laws in place keeping big companys like this in check
as to not knowing what is private and whats not i do know somethings we have a fundamental right to privacy on but allso feel like big companys like this blur the line and mess around in grey areas all the time
its like theres an invisible line most of us cant see and thats why i feel its important to question it

Private Data: data concerns you in real life, aka, health, position, living location, age, gender, etc etc.
Game Data: dps, skills, really any kind of information that’s generated ingame, and is only of use ingame.

E.g., DPS meters can only see Game Data, and not Private Data, as a result, you cannot bring this on a legal level. The judge is just gonna sigh and fine you for wasting the courts’ time

thefinnster.6904:

Moonyeti.3296 this is exactly the point i was makeing Sykper.6583 makes out Anet is all powerfull and can do anything they like with any any and all of the data at there disposal but we know otherwise thankfully there are laws in place keeping big companys like this in check
as to not knowing what is private and whats not i do know somethings we have a fundamental right to privacy on but allso feel like big companys like this blur the line and mess around in grey areas all the time
its like theres an invisible line most of us cant see and thats why i feel its important to question it

You don’t seem to understand. You don’t have any right to privacy regarding any of your dps information or anything like that. Because, again, it is not your information. You have no expectation of privacy of that stuff because it’s not yours. It is public information that you do not own or control.

This kind of reminds me of the phrase “if you’ve done nothing wrong, then you have nothing to fear”.

Lahmia.2193:

This kind of reminds me of the phrase “if you’ve done nothing wrong, then you have nothing to fear”.

famousely quoted in the recent snowden movie :^P

feel like this is going in a tinfoil hat direction lol

thefinnster.6904:

Lahmia.2193:

This kind of reminds me of the phrase “if you’ve done nothing wrong, then you have nothing to fear”.

famousely quoted in the recent snowden movie :^P

feel like this is going in a tinfoil hat direction lol

Well more that people in favour of party dps metres will say people, that are opposed to them, are just trying to hide that they do bad dps.

Right, finally caught up on this entire thread in one sitting. Around page 2-3 I was very happy with how many rational but differing opinions were being voiced, there were some comments that I was going to reply to, but by pages 4-5 I was getting tired and less patient/optimistic of a decent outcome, so it’s probably just easier for me to blanket agree with most of what Miku has said up to this point and leave it at that. My personal favourite part was the vial of poison bit. Very nearly applauded irl but that would have made reading this on my phone even more difficult.

puts on the snooty voice
You have all been judged based on your RPP (reasoning per post) output, as measured by my RPP meter, some of you may find yourselves kicked for underperforming, it’s simpler for me to just remove you from my immediate environment than try to enlighten you, however feel free to start up your own forum elsewhere if you’re happy with your current RPP output level.
=P

(^this is intended to be lighthearted, and I’m well aware it’s not a properly functioning analogy, but again, tired, hope it doesn’t cause offence to anyone here)

thefinnster.6904:

Moonyeti.3296 this is exactly the point i was makeing Sykper.6583 makes out Anet is all powerfull and can do anything they like with any any and all of the data at there disposal but we know otherwise thankfully there are laws in place keeping big companys like this in check
as to not knowing what is private and whats not i do know somethings we have a fundamental right to privacy on but allso feel like big companys like this blur the line and mess around in grey areas all the time
its like theres an invisible line most of us cant see and thats why i feel its important to question it

How was that the point you were making? Did you read that like I was agreeing with you? Anyway, no there is no ‘invisible line’. There are various laws that anyone that is curious is free to look up for further understanding. Instead, however, you make arguments based on how you assume the law works and when people repeatedly point out that that no, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of things you then change the argument to say the laws are some hand waving intangible force that is impossible to comprehend.

But you know what? You are convinced that this is an epic legal breach, so go ahead and hire a lawyer and file a suit. Come back to us with the results.

For better or worse, ANet now allows DPS meters; it seems very, very unlikely that they will revisit that decision — they were very clear about why they changed their stance. They aren’t going to offer the option to block such meters because it’s unfeasible to do so. If you don’t want them used, you’ll have to start a group and include no-meter as a condition of joining.

All the same, people who don’t want them used don’t have to justify their dislike or distrust. It’s enough to say you don’t want them in your group.

The good news is that since they are allowed, people will likely be upfront about usage and so each of us can include use of a DPS meter as we decide whether we want to join a group or not, invite someone or not, kick someone or not.

Fatalyz.7168:

I suppose that would depend on who owns the numbers that the dps meters read. My best guess would be that Anet owns the numbers, therefore, it would be their information to release or not.

Anet actually does not own the numbers. The meters are reading the RAM of the computer they are running on. The data on a computer’s RAM is considered the property of the person that owns the computer.

Legally DPS meters are just reading the end user’s own property and thus are not in any way a privacy concern.

Lahmia.2193:

thefinnster.6904:

Lahmia.2193:

This kind of reminds me of the phrase “if you’ve done nothing wrong, then you have nothing to fear”.

famousely quoted in the recent snowden movie :^P

feel like this is going in a tinfoil hat direction lol

Well more that people in favour of party dps metres will say people, that are opposed to them, are just trying to hide that they do bad dps.

And this is exactly why dps meters are a bad thing.

Great rpg have great synergies and allows for altruistic gameplay. GW2 in particular has boons, heals, razzes, boon removals, cc, break bars. ‘’do bad dps’ is the often used declaration by the raider that watches those damage meters oh so very closely and focusing on strategies that eliminate any variation in gameplay, simplifying into a dps race as much as possible where altruism and dynamic play is meaningless – rote rote rote right.

Crinn.7864:

Fatalyz.7168:

I suppose that would depend on who owns the numbers that the dps meters read. My best guess would be that Anet owns the numbers, therefore, it would be their information to release or not.

Anet actually does not own the numbers. The meters are reading the RAM of the computer they are running on. The data on a computer’s RAM is considered the property of the person that owns the computer.

Really?

Aren’t game files stored in my RAM during my play sessions? Does that mean that I own GW2?

Does data become one’s property merely by existing on one’s hard drive? If such is the case then one could not be prosecuted for data theft so long as one stored the supposedly stolen data on one’s hard drive…after all one cannot have stolen it if it belongs to oneself right?

Do physical objects become my property by default because they are in my home? If so am I immune to prosecution for grand theft so long as I store the stolen items in my home?

http://lifehacker.com/you-dont-own-your-data-1556088120

the answer at the moment is that we don’t know who owns what data. However, its a safe bet to say viewing dps data in a game is unlikely to be ever considered privacy invasion. Anet may or may not decide in the future however that it is damaging their product, that’s a different thing.

Was a bad idea from the start, people will leave over this and others will start becoming more strict in party forming and reduce interest in high end content.

It also makes it so people use specific builds and can’t handle changes when nerfs hit and have to wait for the new meta.

And one of the biggest draws this game has is the diversity of classes, dps meters take away from that and the game becomes less of this unique experiance and just another bland mmo ruined by a community of people who would quite easily move to a new game if it offered more raids.

Drakz.7051:

Was a bad idea from the start, people will leave over this and others will start becoming more strict in party forming and reduce interest in high end content.

It also makes it so people use specific builds and can’t handle changes when nerfs hit and have to wait for the new meta.

And one of the biggest draws this game has is the diversity of classes, dps meters take away from that and the game becomes less of this unique experiance and just another bland mmo ruined by a community of people who would quite easily move to a new game if it offered more raids.

It was a good idea from the start, more people will get into raiding when they can visually see exactly how good they are, and people are more likely to be open for pugs because you can see how good the people are who join your party.

It also makes people practice with different builds because just because something’s meta, doesn’t mean they personally will get the highest numbers. A small change in an utility skill, or a different trait, can raise or lower your personal dps. you can now actually visualize the impact of the changes in your build.

and one biggest boons to this is that you can see when you over-dps, or under-dps, so you can change the composition of your party to have more druids, more chronos, more condis, more dps, whatever it is that you need. it becomes more of a unique experience because until now you couldn’t visualize how good your build was, so everyone just ran the meta builds without being able to see whether or not they were actually doing it right. Now they can see whether or not the meta build is suitable for them.

—

Do you see my point, all things you consider to be the drawback, others consider to be the best thing that happened to this game since we finally got to put Caudecus on a cross. All I’m trying to say is, one may think only of the negative aspects, and others may only see the positive aspects. You can’t say that a dps meter will turn a game into a more vibrant and variant world, or into a bland generic hack’n’slash.

all you are talking about is dps dps dps, this is the problem with meters, tunnel vision that leads down a single strategic path.

vesica tempestas.1563:

all you are talking about is dps dps dps, this is the problem with meters, tunnel vision that leads down a single strategic path.

Tunnel vision is quite appropriate when you are in a tunnel.

the only tunnel is a tightly tuned raid boss that has an aggressive enrage timer.

vesica tempestas.1563:

all you are talking about is dps dps dps, this is the problem with meters, tunnel vision that leads down a single strategic path.

When discussing the benefits of DPS meters, of course you’re not going to talk about things that are not related at all to DPS.

Any group that only uses the DPS meter to decide who stays and who goes and disregards other aspects relevant to whatever content the group is doing, is not a group worth being in anyway.

Seera.5916:

vesica tempestas.1563:

all you are talking about is dps dps dps, this is the problem with meters, tunnel vision that leads down a single strategic path.

When discussing the benefits of DPS meters, of course you’re not going to talk about things that are not related at all to DPS.

Any group that only uses the DPS meter to decide who stays and who goes and disregards other aspects relevant to whatever content the group is doing, is not a group worth being in anyway.

well that’s the reality of things, people do indeed focus on dps over everything else otherwise there wouldn’t be a problem.

vesica tempestas.1563:

Seera.5916:

vesica tempestas.1563:

all you are talking about is dps dps dps, this is the problem with meters, tunnel vision that leads down a single strategic path.

When discussing the benefits of DPS meters, of course you’re not going to talk about things that are not related at all to DPS.

Any group that only uses the DPS meter to decide who stays and who goes and disregards other aspects relevant to whatever content the group is doing, is not a group worth being in anyway.

well that’s the reality of things, people do indeed focus on dps over everything else otherwise there wouldn’t be a problem.

Said players were also ignorantly abusing LIs as a form of measuring raid experience and skill. Just because there are bad raiders who fail to understand how a DPS meter is run in a raid setting doesn’t mean the tool itself is the fault here. The best course is simply not the raid with such players who can’t understand why you, as the healer, are not doing the DPS.

I use bdgm.. only to keep an eye on my own readings.. bdgm only allow people that has bdgm installed to view and we can’t see anyone else who doesn’t install this. As for people that use “arcdps”.. they are seeing everyone else numbers even without consent…
I am ok though for people to use dps meter .. but I do think anet should look into this more.. maybe anet should include in game dps meter for player that has option to share and not. I like to hv dps meter for myself.. way of improvement but I won’t die without it. I prefer to hv it on actually.

vesica tempestas.1563:

Seera.5916:

vesica tempestas.1563:

all you are talking about is dps dps dps, this is the problem with meters, tunnel vision that leads down a single strategic path.

When discussing the benefits of DPS meters, of course you’re not going to talk about things that are not related at all to DPS.

Any group that only uses the DPS meter to decide who stays and who goes and disregards other aspects relevant to whatever content the group is doing, is not a group worth being in anyway.

well that’s the reality of things, people do indeed focus on dps over everything else otherwise there wouldn’t be a problem.

And DPS meters didn’t suddenly make people focus solely on DPS. You can’t claim something that exists without DPS meters in the game as a con of DPS meters.

Seera.5916:

vesica tempestas.1563:

Seera.5916:

vesica tempestas.1563:

all you are talking about is dps dps dps, this is the problem with meters, tunnel vision that leads down a single strategic path.

When discussing the benefits of DPS meters, of course you’re not going to talk about things that are not related at all to DPS.

Any group that only uses the DPS meter to decide who stays and who goes and disregards other aspects relevant to whatever content the group is doing, is not a group worth being in anyway.

well that’s the reality of things, people do indeed focus on dps over everything else otherwise there wouldn’t be a problem.

And DPS meters didn’t suddenly make people focus solely on DPS. You can’t claim something that exists without DPS meters in the game as a con of DPS meters.

im not claiming anything really, the history of meters and their effect on mmorpg is there to be seen and pretty well known, and yes meters have changed player behaviours – hence the term ‘dps kitten’ for example which didn’t exist before meters in their modern form.

simply google ‘the history of damage meters and their effect on games’ this isn’t unique to GW2.

vesica tempestas.1563:

Seera.5916:

vesica tempestas.1563:

Seera.5916:

vesica tempestas.1563:

all you are talking about is dps dps dps, this is the problem with meters, tunnel vision that leads down a single strategic path.

When discussing the benefits of DPS meters, of course you’re not going to talk about things that are not related at all to DPS.

Any group that only uses the DPS meter to decide who stays and who goes and disregards other aspects relevant to whatever content the group is doing, is not a group worth being in anyway.

well that’s the reality of things, people do indeed focus on dps over everything else otherwise there wouldn’t be a problem.

And DPS meters didn’t suddenly make people focus solely on DPS. You can’t claim something that exists without DPS meters in the game as a con of DPS meters.

im not claiming anything really, the history of meters and their effect on mmorpg is there to be seen and pretty well known, and yes meters have changed player behaviours – hence the term ‘dps kitten’ for example which didn’t exist before meters in their modern form.

simply google ‘the history of damage meters and their effect on games’ this isn’t unique to GW2.

You mean, the perception of DPS meters isn’t new. I have yet to see evidence that the use of DPS meters changes otherwise helpful people into jerks.

well its pretty clear if you research a bit. as for being jerks, humans behavior is often influenced by environment and peer pressure.

But that’s not a reason to not allow DPS meters.

Until there’s evidence of widespread jerk behavior explicitly due to the DPS meter in this game, then I see no reason to ban them.

Ashen.2907:

Aren’t game files stored in my RAM during my play sessions? Does that mean that I own GW2?

You own your copy of the game client. You don’t own the franchise.

Does data become one’s property merely by existing on one’s hard drive? If such is the case then one could not be prosecuted for data theft so long as one stored the supposedly stolen data on one’s hard drive…after all one cannot have stolen it if it belongs to oneself right?

Data theft is stealing someone else’s private data. As in removing data from a network/machine that isn’t yours.

Anet gave you the client as part of the service. That client is yours, just like any item purchased from a store is yours.
The chair that you are presumably sitting on is yours, you bought it from a store and it is your property now. However you do not own the patient for that chair. Software is the same way, you own the copy of the program that is on your PC, you just don’t own the IP and patients.

Moreover if we are going to interpret reading RAM as data theft, then every single C/C++ programmer that ever had a runaway pointer is a criminal.

Crinn.7864:

Data theft is stealing someone else’s private data. As in removing data from a network/machine that isn’t yours.

And once it is on my computer the data is mine, right? At that point I could not be prosecuted because the data belongs to me…because anything on my hard drive belongs to me.

Or am I misunderstanding your claim?

Ashen.2907:

And once it is on my computer the data is mine, right? At that point I could not be prosecuted because the data belongs to me…because anything on my hard drive belongs to me.

Is the GW2 client private data that you nefariously stole from their office, or is the GW2 client a product that Anet has given you as a part of their service?

Is the chair you are sitting on yours, or does it still belong to the furniture store that you purchased it from?

Look, we can run in rhetoric circles all day, but at the end of the day there is no reasonable interpretation of the law where reading from your own RAM is illegal. That’s not it works, and making the law work that way would be a SOPA level of stupid.

vesica tempestas.1563:

Seera.5916:

vesica tempestas.1563:

all you are talking about is dps dps dps, this is the problem with meters, tunnel vision that leads down a single strategic path.

When discussing the benefits of DPS meters, of course you’re not going to talk about things that are not related at all to DPS.

Any group that only uses the DPS meter to decide who stays and who goes and disregards other aspects relevant to whatever content the group is doing, is not a group worth being in anyway.

well that’s the reality of things, people do indeed focus on dps over everything else otherwise there wouldn’t be a problem.

but there isn’t a problem? people make it a problem
you’re a druid? we’re fine if your dps is 0
you’re a chronotank, your dps can be negative for all I care
only if you’re DPS or CondiDPS does your dps matter, and thats what this tool is for. those show the dps OF THAT SPECIFIC ROLE

OniGiri.9461:

The fuss i believe is caused by the one showing your dps without you giving your consent.

Which is nonsene imo.

Yeah I mean, ofc it is. That information is publicly broadcast in a way, combat log and all.

Just a reminder that DPS meters are usually run in conjunction with a Boon meter so as to make problems in a raid group easily diagnosable, instead of taking random guesses as to where the problems are and how to fix them.
If someone is using a DPS meter without looking at Boons at all, they are not using it correctly. Instead of moaning about people only looking at DPS you should be educating people on how best to use these tools for the benefit of all raiders, veteran and new.

As for people not liking DPS meters like arcdps that can display estimated DPS of anyone in the group, it’s fine that you don’t like it but trying to ban all DPS meters because of how one works is not going to go down well. If anything you will have those that find DPS meters to be an extremely useful tool doubling down on their use of it.
A better way of going about this would be to encourage the use of DPS meters that require you to be using it to display your DPS (BDGM) on the merit of them being just a better DPS meter. Instead of attaching some moral argument to it just keep recommending BDGM to people who ask, maybe pointing out that it has a wonderful Boon Meter that is way more important to look at than DPS…

Carighan.6758:

OniGiri.9461:

The fuss i believe is caused by the one showing your dps without you giving your consent.

Which is nonsene imo.

Yeah I mean, ofc it is. That information is publicly broadcast in a way, combat log and all.

I think you can group the people opposed to that in three categories:

(1) The ones that have had bad experiences with toxic people that screamed at them in map chat for doing something wrong or kicking them from fractal and dungeon groups because these toxic people felt that they screwed up.

(2) The ones who are already afraid to join the hard content and feel like dps meters will be another hurd for them.

(3) The ones that know they are not good enough/geared enough/trained enough to clear that content and don’t want to be called out (this is not a raid specific thing – i had a lot of those in fractals)

I am also part of group 1 and was opposed to dps meters at first. After trying it for my self i just couldn’t deny the usefullness for my personal growth inside the game.
I have been raiding for about 5 months now and had one bad dps meter experience. But the usefullness just outweighs these minor bad experiences.

These pugs/coms/players that only focus on the numbers on the screen – you don’t want to play with them. Believe me! You don’t sign a contract by joining a pug. Just leave it and look for another one. Puging in raids is often a jumping around till you find a group you like to stick with for a couple of trys.

I tried to walk through the opinions on the forum and stumbled mostly about messages regarding the moral side of the DPS meter and what influence it has for the players who don’t want to use it. I am confused that nobody pointed out something that’s been bothering me from the beginning.

What I am trying to say is that DPS meter is made to give you ADDITIONAL info about certain situations. Squad leader/commander, whatever name you choose, now has the ability to modify his squad to some degree – low dps, low condi dps, little buff uptime and so on. He does not have to observe the game itself anymore and he can act based on some outputs given to him by script. As this info is not visible to anyone else (except those who use DPS meter) we might say, that it gives him advantage. How? Well let’s just say that someone decides to play without DPS meter. He has no info whatsoever about the damage people do and have to make decision based on what he actually sees (uptime of banners, stacks of might, chrono buffs, w/e) this task requires time, knowledge and skill (to be able to handle all of that in situation such as raid). Now this might seem minor to a lot of people but to me it seems like DPS meter in such form gives advantage to party who actually have them as it can make chances of going through raid for them better with less effort to actual team build and plays itself. Thus forcing other users to usage of that DPS meter as well in order to gain higher chances.

It may seem dumb, but it just feels to me like the person who decides not to use DPS meter is in virtual disadvantage. And for me that just feels like something I’d like to avoid. It’s not about the DPS meter itself but let’s be honest and give everyone same opportunities. For that I’d suggest either blocking/disallowing DPS meter or implementing one in the game itself.

Uzunari.1964:

I tried to walk through the opinions on the forum and stumbled mostly about messages regarding the moral side of the DPS meter and what influence it has for the players who don’t want to use it. I am confused that nobody pointed out something that’s been bothering me from the beginning.

What I am trying to say is that DPS meter is made to give you ADDITIONAL info about certain situations. Squad leader/commander, whatever name you choose, now has the ability to modify his squad to some degree – low dps, low condi dps, little buff uptime and so on. He does not have to observe the game itself anymore and he can act based on some outputs given to him by script. As this info is not visible to anyone else (except those who use DPS meter) we might say, that it gives him advantage. How? Well let’s just say that someone decides to play without DPS meter. He has no info whatsoever about the damage people do and have to make decision based on what he actually sees (uptime of banners, stacks of might, chrono buffs, w/e) this task requires time, knowledge and skill (to be able to handle all of that in situation such as raid). Now this might seem minor to a lot of people but to me it seems like DPS meter in such form gives advantage to party who actually have them as it can make chances of going through raid for them better with less effort to actual team build and plays itself. Thus forcing other users to usage of that DPS meter as well in order to gain higher chances.

It may seem dumb, but it just feels to me like the person who decides not to use DPS meter is in virtual disadvantage. And for me that just feels like something I’d like to avoid. It’s not about the DPS meter itself but let’s be honest and give everyone same opportunities. For that I’d suggest either blocking/disallowing DPS meter or implementing one in the game itself.

The different advantages to a squad or squad leader were mentioned over and over.
But these advantages are one of the things the “anti-meter-fraction” is opposed to.
Because many don’t want to be called out for doing something or not doing something. And so far you could just blame it on toxicty because no one could tell. Now there is a way to monitor everyone. The ones using it to advance welcome it.