Guild Wars 2

OniGiri.9461:

The different advantages to a squad or squad leader were mentioned over and over.
But these advantages are one of the things the “anti-meter-fraction” is opposed to.
Because many don’t want to be called out for doing something or not doing something. And so far you could just blame it on toxicty because no one could tell. Now there is a way to monitor everyone. The ones using it to advance welcome it.

Well my point is that giving someone advantage that is directly connected to usage of something (especially 3rd party tool) over someone who does not use it is actually violation of the original policy that was stated to us (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Policy-3rd-Party-Programs-Multi-Boxing-Macros/first#post6142609) and from some point of view it forces others to use that tool as well for the sake of “keeping up”.

Uzunari.1964:

OniGiri.9461:

The different advantages to a squad or squad leader were mentioned over and over.
But these advantages are one of the things the “anti-meter-fraction” is opposed to.
Because many don’t want to be called out for doing something or not doing something. And so far you could just blame it on toxicty because no one could tell. Now there is a way to monitor everyone. The ones using it to advance welcome it.

Well my point is that giving someone advantage that is directly connected to usage of something (especially 3rd party tool) over someone who does not use it is actually violation of the original policy that was stated to us (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Policy-3rd-Party-Programs-Multi-Boxing-Macros/first#post6142609) and from some point of view it forces others to use that tool as well for the sake of “keeping up”.

That was already adressed by Arenanet. Advantages gained by monitoring group performance is not what is meant here. Any tool that lets you click faster, jump higher, teleport (without using the class skills), create gold (outside of game mechanics), etc is what is meant here.

lucadiro.4519:

What have this to do with a dps meter? I mean, you don’t need a dps meter to understand if you have poor alacrity (or every other buff) uptime.

It is waaaaaaaay easier to spot problems in buff uptime with a meter. Also, poor buff uptime might be caused by poor play by the buffer, but it also might be caused by poor positioning on your side. There’s no way to tell this without a meter, unless you’re constantly checking other people’s buffs as well as your own, instead of paying attention to the fight’s mechanics.

Uzunari.1964:

What I am trying to say is that DPS meter is made to give you ADDITIONAL info about certain situations. Squad leader/commander, whatever name you choose, now has the ability to modify his squad to some degree – low dps, low condi dps, little buff uptime and so on. He does not have to observe the game itself anymore and he can act based on some outputs given to him by script. As this info is not visible to anyone else (except those who use DPS meter) we might say, that it gives him advantage. How? Well let’s just say that someone decides to play without DPS meter. He has no info whatsoever about the damage people do and have to make decision based on what he actually sees (uptime of banners, stacks of might, chrono buffs, w/e) this task requires time, knowledge and skill (to be able to handle all of that in situation such as raid). Now this might seem minor to a lot of people but to me it seems like DPS meter in such form gives advantage to party who actually have them as it can make chances of going through raid for them better with less effort to actual team build and plays itself. Thus forcing other users to usage of that DPS meter as well in order to gain higher chances.

So you’re basically saying “dps meters help people become better players and hence push other people into doing the same”? And this is bad becaaaaause…?

So you’re basically saying “dps meters help people become better players and hence push other people into doing the same”? And this is bad becaaaaause…?[/quote]

Uh, no? I am saying that leader with DPS meter can pay less attention to details that are necessary for successful raid such as buff uptime, dps an other details that were currently only available through throughout observation and it required players attention. Therefore he can make ratio of his squad/party more successful with less effort then leader who does not use the dps meter.

Oh, I see. So focusing on the fight instead of looking at buff bars is the bad thing. I stand corrected. /s

Feanor.2358:

Oh, I see. So focusing on the fight instead of looking at buff bars is the bad thing. I stand corrected. /s

what..

are you.. I can’t.. whuuaat??

noo…..

Uzunari.1964:

So you’re basically saying “dps meters help people become better players and hence push other people into doing the same”? And this is bad becaaaaause…?

Uh, no? I am saying that leader with DPS meter can pay less attention to details that are necessary for successful raid such as buff uptime, dps an other details that were currently only available through throughout observation and it required players attention. Therefore he can make ratio of his squad/party more successful with less effort then leader who does not use the dps meter.

A captain who cares only about the DPS and not about anything else is not a party you should worry yourself with so much

The thing is that alot of players like to get carried in different ways, without ever thinking as to how much they contribute to the gain. For example, I did install a DPS meter a few days ago, and have been doing alot of Fractal 40 farm with it.
I was obviously searching for an expert group, since you want to get as much out of the farm as possible. And let me tell you, its unbelievable how many people 1) think they are exp, but are not, 2) dont care about requirements at all or 3) just lie to get what they want. Before the meters you had a group, if it went well – fine. If it didn’t however, you had no reliable way to tell WHICH PART was the reason for it, so you basically had to search for a whole new group. NOW you can see who is responsible, and tell him he doesn’t meet your requirements (in a friendly manner of course). It’s just way easier to cope with the whole thing. It also helps players in realizing on what level they actually play on. And it does keep snitches from lying their way into getting what they want, thats just a fact.

What I don’t understand is, how can you say you are AGAINST dps meters, because you don’t like to be monitored, and one sentence later say “Let Anet do a DPS meter ingame!!” – it’s the exact same thing? You still get monitored, you still (maybe) get called out for your performance. But honestly, how is that a bad thing? Some people want to take things seriously, and do smooth and/or effective runs. People that aren’t playing on top of their game are denying them that. How is it unfair to help these serious players? If you want to take a more relaxed approach to the game, no one is ever gonna blame you for that. Just don’t join exp groups or such then, you don’t really get any disadvantage by these tools.

Oh and PS:
That thing about gaining an advantage as a commander e.g. is a joke right? Yes, it does make things easier, but it only gives you something you could do anyways. Then you could also say it shouldn’t be allowed to play a mouse with side keys. Or to change your skill hotkeys, because Q,E,R,T are way easier to reach than 6 7 8 9 or F1 F2 F3 F4. What kind of argument is that?

Uzunari.1964:

Well my point is that giving someone advantage that is directly connected to usage of something (especially 3rd party tool) over someone who does not use it is actually violation of the original policy that was stated to us (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Policy-3rd-Party-Programs-Multi-Boxing-Macros/first#post6142609) and from some point of view it forces others to use that tool as well for the sake of “keeping up”.

Yeah but by that logic, Ascended gear is against the ToS. :P

I just did a fractal run and apparently everyone in the group had dps meters that let you see everyones dps and gear and all gave me a mouth full at the end for not using the ‘meta’ build. I didn’t concent to people being able to see my stuff they definitely need to not allow this!

Make an official dps meter and make it so people at least know when others are watching them, I can understand elitism in raids but I’ve never had problems in fractals until this and I dont want dps meter min maxxers running around in fractals to harass me when I’m trying to do dalies.

I’m pretty sure if I copy and pasted whatever meta battle and qt told me to I’d have amazing dps like they want as well.

ZoSo.4867:

I just did a fractal run and apparently everyone in the group had dps meters that let you see everyones dps and gear and all gave me a mouth full at the end for not using the ‘meta’ build. I didn’t concent to people being able to see my stuff they definitely need to not allow this!

Make an official dps meter and make it so people at least know when others are watching them, I can understand elitism in raids but I’ve never had problems in fractals until this and I dont want dps meter min maxxers running around in fractals to harass me when I’m trying to do dalies.

I’m pretty sure if I copy and pasted whatever meta battle and qt told me to I’d have amazing dps like they want as well.

they saw your gear? anet was very clear that any meter that shows equipment, gear, etc, is still a reportable offense. remember, all anet approved of was the reading of DPS, aka, the data that is already visual to you even without a meter. What stats and runes, etc you wield, are NOT allowed to be read. There’s a different meter in the grey zone, which shares the data with other people also have the app. In that case there’s a mutual agreement between with the addon. But if you don’t have that specific addon, anyone reading your data besides boons and dps, are clearly in the red and you should report them

Gear checks/build reading aren’t allowed in DPS meters you should report them for it.

Having said that, they can probably half guess what you’re running based on playing with you for 5 minutes. Most of us veterans can tell right off the bat what you’re running is “not meta” just by looking at any lack of or too many signets + weapon set.

fishball.7204:

Gear checks/build reading aren’t allowed in DPS meters you should report them for it.

Having said that, they can probably half guess what you’re running based on playing with you for 5 minutes. Most of us veterans can tell right off the bat what you’re running is “not meta” just by looking at any lack of or too many signets + weapon set.

Problem is, you can “kinda tell a little bit”
if it’s signets, you can see it, if it’s the wrong weapon, you can see it. But that only acounts for like 10% of the options. The rest comes from runes, sigils, stats, and traits, and there’s just no (legal) way of seeing that.

I often see during raids that people ask me why (as a warrior) I bring a hammer, instead of a shield, and then I have to give a 10 minute lecture why the shield may theoretically be better, my personal performance is better with the hammer, when we could’ve killed the boss during those 10 minutes

Amaimon.7823:

fishball.7204:

Gear checks/build reading aren’t allowed in DPS meters you should report them for it.

Having said that, they can probably half guess what you’re running based on playing with you for 5 minutes. Most of us veterans can tell right off the bat what you’re running is “not meta” just by looking at any lack of or too many signets + weapon set.

Problem is, you can “kinda tell a little bit”
if it’s signets, you can see it, if it’s the wrong weapon, you can see it. But that only acounts for like 10% of the options. The rest comes from runes, sigils, stats, and traits, and there’s just no (legal) way of seeing that.

I often see during raids that people ask me why (as a warrior) I bring a hammer, instead of a shield, and then I have to give a 10 minute lecture why the shield may theoretically be better, my personal performance is better with the hammer, when we could’ve killed the boss during those 10 minutes

The point is that people don’t need a DPS meter to be single-minded about “meta or bust.” At least with a DPS meter, people are using an objective measure of the damage done, even if they are still being subjective about how much that number matters.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

The point is that people don’t need a DPS meter to be single-minded about “meta or bust.” At least with a DPS meter, people are using an objective measure of the damage done, even if they are still being subjective about how much that number matters.

I’ve never really run dungeons for this reason. Before the expansion, most dungeon groups in LFG (as far as I could tell) specified that they were looking for a particular profession/build. I almost never even tried to run dungeons because I simply didn’t want to deal with the “meta or bust” crowd.

Now that there are some viable DPS meters, I’m personally more confident joining PUGs because I know, thanks to data, that I’m able to carry my own weight. I don’t need to run a meta build to be viable, and I can prove it.

This is why I don’t understand people who complain about DPS meters. Sure, they could have been used to discriminate, but people already did that. Instead, I used DPS meters to improve my play to the point that I don’t need to worry about discrimination. And as someone else mentioned, more than a few people in the “meta or bust” crowd aren’t nearly as good as they think they are. Just because you’re running a meta build doesn’t mean you have any idea how to play it.

Crinn.7864:

Ashen.2907:

And once it is on my computer the data is mine, right? At that point I could not be prosecuted because the data belongs to me…because anything on my hard drive belongs to me.

Is the GW2 client private data that you nefariously stole from their office, or is the GW2 client a product that Anet has given you as a part of their service?

Is the chair you are sitting on yours, or does it still belong to the furniture store that you purchased it from?

Look, we can run in rhetoric circles all day, but at the end of the day there is no reasonable interpretation of the law where reading from your own RAM is illegal. That’s not it works, and making the law work that way would be a SOPA level of stupid.

I didn’t say that reading from my own RAM would be illegal. What I said was that something being in my RAM does not automatically mean that I own that thing.

You said that if data is on my (for example) computer, in my RAM, that meant I owned it. Period. Possession does not automatically mean ownership. If it did then the act of stealing would mean a transfer of ownership and would prevent prosecution for possession of stolen goods. After all prosecuting someone for possessing something that they own, unless the something is inherently illegal, would not work.

I can see it now, the police show up at my home after following a number of tips and attempt to arrest me for the Ferrari in my drive way. It used to belong to the dealership in town. I broke into the dealership to take it without paying for it. But the police have to back down because, as it is on my property, I own the car. In the end the local DA can only go after me for trespassing for my sojourn onto the dealership’s property. Perhaps breaking and entering. But not for grand theft auto, because, after all, the vehicle belongs to me.

No. possession of something does not automatically transfer ownership of that thing.

Ashen.2907:

Crinn.7864:

Ashen.2907:

And once it is on my computer the data is mine, right? At that point I could not be prosecuted because the data belongs to me…because anything on my hard drive belongs to me.

Is the GW2 client private data that you nefariously stole from their office, or is the GW2 client a product that Anet has given you as a part of their service?

Is the chair you are sitting on yours, or does it still belong to the furniture store that you purchased it from?

Look, we can run in rhetoric circles all day, but at the end of the day there is no reasonable interpretation of the law where reading from your own RAM is illegal. That’s not it works, and making the law work that way would be a SOPA level of stupid.

I didn’t say that reading from my own RAM would be illegal. What I said was that something being in my RAM does not automatically mean that I own that thing.

You said that if data is on my (for example) computer, in my RAM, that meant I owned it. Period. Possession does not automatically mean ownership. If it did then the act of stealing would mean a transfer of ownership and would prevent prosecution for possession of stolen goods. After all prosecuting someone for possessing something that they own, unless the something is inherently illegal, would not work.

I can see it now, the police show up at my home after following a number of tips and attempt to arrest me for the Ferrari in my drive way. It used to belong to the dealership in town. I broke into the dealership to take it without paying for it. But the police have to back down because, as it is on my property, I own the car. In the end the local DA can only go after me for trespassing for my sojourn onto the dealership’s property. Perhaps breaking and entering. But not for grand theft auto, because, after all, the vehicle belongs to me.

No. possession of something does not automatically transfer ownership of that thing.

To think of this another way, if what you say WASN’T true, software piracy wouldn’t be a crime. Load up a program, make a copy because it is on my hard drive or in my ram, and then give anyone a copy of ‘my’ copy.

DesiRe.1348:

The thing is that alot of players like to get carried in different ways, without ever thinking as to how much they contribute to the gain. For example, I did install a DPS meter a few days ago, and have been doing alot of Fractal 40 farm with it.
I was obviously searching for an expert group, since you want to get as much out of the farm as possible. And let me tell you, its unbelievable how many people 1) think they are exp, but are not, 2) dont care about requirements at all or 3) just lie to get what they want. Before the meters you had a group, if it went well – fine. If it didn’t however, you had no reliable way to tell WHICH PART was the reason for it, so you basically had to search for a whole new group. NOW you can see who is responsible, and tell him he doesn’t meet your requirements (in a friendly manner of course). It’s just way easier to cope with the whole thing. It also helps players in realizing on what level they actually play on. And it does keep snitches from lying their way into getting what they want, thats just a fact.

What I don’t understand is, how can you say you are AGAINST dps meters, because you don’t like to be monitored, and one sentence later say “Let Anet do a DPS meter ingame!!” – it’s the exact same thing? You still get monitored, you still (maybe) get called out for your performance. But honestly, how is that a bad thing? Some people want to take things seriously, and do smooth and/or effective runs. People that aren’t playing on top of their game are denying them that. How is it unfair to help these serious players? If you want to take a more relaxed approach to the game, no one is ever gonna blame you for that. Just don’t join exp groups or such then, you don’t really get any disadvantage by these tools.

Oh and PS:
That thing about gaining an advantage as a commander e.g. is a joke right? Yes, it does make things easier, but it only gives you something you could do anyways. Then you could also say it shouldn’t be allowed to play a mouse with side keys. Or to change your skill hotkeys, because Q,E,R,T are way easier to reach than 6 7 8 9 or F1 F2 F3 F4. What kind of argument is that?

Well, you don’t get the point I consider DPS meter an advantage as even in this state it does not provide only the calculated numbers of dmg but other data as well (buff uptimes, downed stats and so no..) To me this seems like advantage to some degree. I am totally okay with it if it comes from official source though, because I won’t just download some kitteny non-official software from whatever the source is right now (Sorry, this is madness and nobody should). But because of the advantage in my eyes I ask for same opportunities for everyone – make dps meter ingame. Is that not obvious solution? If this is not possible (I really see no reason why it shouldn’t be) then simply block the usage for everyone → easy as that.

Uzunari.1964:

DesiRe.1348:

The thing is that alot of players like to get carried in different ways, without ever thinking as to how much they contribute to the gain. For example, I did install a DPS meter a few days ago, and have been doing alot of Fractal 40 farm with it.
I was obviously searching for an expert group, since you want to get as much out of the farm as possible. And let me tell you, its unbelievable how many people 1) think they are exp, but are not, 2) dont care about requirements at all or 3) just lie to get what they want. Before the meters you had a group, if it went well – fine. If it didn’t however, you had no reliable way to tell WHICH PART was the reason for it, so you basically had to search for a whole new group. NOW you can see who is responsible, and tell him he doesn’t meet your requirements (in a friendly manner of course). It’s just way easier to cope with the whole thing. It also helps players in realizing on what level they actually play on. And it does keep snitches from lying their way into getting what they want, thats just a fact.

What I don’t understand is, how can you say you are AGAINST dps meters, because you don’t like to be monitored, and one sentence later say “Let Anet do a DPS meter ingame!!” – it’s the exact same thing? You still get monitored, you still (maybe) get called out for your performance. But honestly, how is that a bad thing? Some people want to take things seriously, and do smooth and/or effective runs. People that aren’t playing on top of their game are denying them that. How is it unfair to help these serious players? If you want to take a more relaxed approach to the game, no one is ever gonna blame you for that. Just don’t join exp groups or such then, you don’t really get any disadvantage by these tools.

Oh and PS:
That thing about gaining an advantage as a commander e.g. is a joke right? Yes, it does make things easier, but it only gives you something you could do anyways. Then you could also say it shouldn’t be allowed to play a mouse with side keys. Or to change your skill hotkeys, because Q,E,R,T are way easier to reach than 6 7 8 9 or F1 F2 F3 F4. What kind of argument is that?

Well, you don’t get the point I consider DPS meter an advantage as even in this state it does not provide only the calculated numbers of dmg but other data as well (buff uptimes, downed stats and so no..) To me this seems like advantage to some degree. I am totally okay with it if it comes from official source though, because I won’t just download some kitteny non-official software from whatever the source is right now (Sorry, this is madness and nobody should). But because of the advantage in my eyes I ask for same opportunities for everyone – make dps meter ingame. Is that not obvious solution? If this is not possible (I really see no reason why it shouldn’t be) then simply block the usage for everyone -> easy as that.

By Anets own words:

The best way for a player to determine whether a specific third-party program could have any impact on another player or a PvP opponent is to ask:

“Does this program allow someone to play faster, better, longer, or more accurately than someone who doesn’t use it?”

“Does this program allow someone to ‘play’ when he/she is not at the computer?”

“Does this program allow the user to gain undeserved rewards?”

DPS Meters do not do any of those things, all they do is provide information already provided by the game in a consolidated manner and Anet has laid for the rules for “legal” DPS Meyers to abide by, so far the two main ones follow Anets Rules on the matter.

There is no advantage given by dps meters that allow anyone to play faster, longer, or more accurately, they don’t magically give players rewards and they don’t allow people to play while AFK.

people complaining about DPS meters have yet to provide any real reasons why dps meters should be removed besides their feelings.

DPS meters are a blessing they allow people to be judged based on their actual performance and not arbitrary things like LI quantity or Kill Proof, or because someone feels like a Player isn’t pulling their weight.

Moonyeti.3296:

To think of this another way, if what you say WASN’T true, software piracy wouldn’t be a crime. Load up a program, make a copy because it is on my hard drive or in my ram, and then give anyone a copy of ‘my’ copy.

I don’t think you understand what piracy is.

Software Piracy is the duplication of software that you do not have distribution rights to.

Software copyright law is just that, COPYright law. Not viewing law. It is illegal for you to distribute copies of the GW2 client because you do not hold the copyright. You can however read it’s memory.

Also illegal duplication only counts as duplication if the copy is removed from the machine.

http://digital-law-online.info/lpdi1.0/treatise20.html

Uzunari.1964:

Well, you don’t get the point I consider DPS meter an advantage as even in this state it does not provide only the calculated numbers of dmg but other data as well (buff uptimes, downed stats and so no..) To me this seems like advantage to some degree. I am totally okay with it if it comes from official source though, because I won’t just download some kitteny non-official software from whatever the source is right now (Sorry, this is madness and nobody should). But because of the advantage in my eyes I ask for same opportunities for everyone – make dps meter ingame. Is that not obvious solution? If this is not possible (I really see no reason why it shouldn’t be) then simply block the usage for everyone -> easy as that.

The problem with the idea of “official” meter is that it takes time and effort to develop. I’m sure the devs already have similar functionality in place, however it won’t be in a form they’d want to present to public. Dev tools are built by programmers for their own use. They are functional, but often messy and very rarely user friendly.

So essentially you’re asking ANet to spend time and resources on something to achieve an already existing effect. It’s pointless. And it doesn’t really affect a large part of the player base, so I don’t think it’s going to happen. At least not any time soon.

Damage meter cons:

-It makes a % of the populace uncomfortable
-A % of the populace that would otherwise not criticize others feel empowered by statistics to criticize (or worse) other people.
-A % of people will kick others based on a statistic
-It is just not needed outside highly tuned raid fights.
-It encourages subjective tunnel vision
-It does not measure altruistic behavior and in fact discourages it.

positives

It is good for highly tuned raid fights
Some people like to use stats to improve
Some people enjoy winning at meters and see it as part of the meta game

pros do not outweigh the cons in a game like GW2 where there is a power ceiling imo.

Hasn’t this debate gone on long enough – time to close thread?

They won’t be blocked – they are a useful tool in the right hands.
People will kick/abuse others with/without a DPS meters for screwing up.
Stop using the meter as an excuse when you play badly – if you’re using this as an excuse to stop DPS metres – sry learn to play better. Previously people had to guess who was playing badly or running in Soldier armor in dungeons thinking they were pro cause they were the last one alive. Now we have some more info if you aren’t playing as a selfish sort like this. Getting 1K DPS instead of 10K DPS – yes you should be called out and encouraged to play the game better.

Facts are you won’t like being called out for being bad – guess what unless you are you won’t improve ever or know there is a better way.

TPMN.1483:

Hasn’t this debate gone on long enough – time to close thread?

They won’t be blocked – they are a useful tool in the right hands.
People will kick/abuse others with/without a DPS meters for screwing up.
Stop using the meter as an excuse when you play badly – if you’re using this as an excuse to stop DPS metres – sry learn to play better. Previously people had to guess who was playing badly or running in Soldier armor in dungeons thinking they were pro cause they were the last one alive. Now we have some more info if you aren’t playing as a selfish sort like this. Getting 1K DPS instead of 10K DPS – yes you should be called out and encouraged to play the game better.

Facts are you won’t like being called out for being bad – guess what unless you are you won’t improve ever or know there is a better way.

I mean what I don’t understand is how something like this quoted opinion comes into existence without peers mocking you mercilessly for it.
So there’s that.

TPMN.1483:

Stop using the meter as an excuse when you play badly

What?

TPMN.1483:

if you’re using this as an excuse to stop DPS metres – sry learn to play better.

What?!?!

TPMN.1483:

Previously people had to guess who was playing badly or running in Soldier armor in dungeons thinking they were pro cause they were the last one alive.

So… is this like the opposite of survivors guilt? You died so it must be the fault of the person who survived?

TPMN.1483:

Now we have some more info if you aren’t playing as a selfish sort like this.

… riiight… you’re one of those sort.

Like seriously, what fathomless pit spawns the “opinion” “less mechanical skill = selfish player”?

Well, I’m calling your opinion out as being bad, let’s see how much you like it and if you use it as a chance to improve. Now you know that there’s a better way.

*edited after breakfast to be less biting

vesica tempestas.1563:

Damage meter cons:

-It makes a % of the populace uncomfortable
-A % of the populace that would otherwise not criticize others feel empowered by statistics to criticize (or worse) other people.
-A % of people will kick others based on a statistic
-It is just not needed outside highly tuned raid fights.
-It encourages subjective tunnel vision
-It does not measure altruistic behavior and in fact discourages it.

positives

It is good for highly tuned raid fights
Some people like to use stats to improve
Some people enjoy winning at meters and see it as part of the meta game

pros do not outweigh the cons in a game like GW2 where there is a power ceiling imo.

thats because your list is heavily biased. I could also make a biased list where the pros outweigh the cons. so thats not much of an argument.

-A % of the population is uncomfortable with it.
Another % is of the population is comfortable with it.
this point means jack skritt without a number.

-A % of people will kick others based on a statistic
This is true?
and why is it true?
DPS is a valid role in the composition of a raid. If you say “I will DPS” and then proceed to do less than 10K dps, you’ve been blatantly lying to your teammates, and the dps meter isn’t at fault.

-It encourages subjective tunnel vision
perhaps, it depends on how good the commander of your team is. A good commander won’t think DPS is all that matters in a raid. A commander who does think so, deserves to fail every run, so you don’t need to have a heart attack over those people.

-It does not measure altruistic behavior and in fact discourages it.
By this you mean people won’t have time to care about others? then you’re right. it’s not the DPS’ place to take care of others. You have the druids for that, you have the chronos for that, you have booners, and the PS for that. It’s called being part of a team where everyone has a role.

vesica tempestas.1563:

pros do not outweigh the cons in a game like GW2 where there is a power ceiling imo.

That’s why ANet hasn’t made one. Point taken I suppose. But why would they be against modding the client, a feature absolutely positive in other MMORPGs which sadly is quite undersupported in GW2?

Being able to do something about the UI in general would be amazing. And since nothing the DPS meter does is actually some kind of magic (it checks the combat log for you), there’s no real magic there either. In the end, it’s a different view of the combat log, and little else.

But importantly, much of the current UI are elements I’d like to change. The raid frames, the HP bar, the cooldown wipers, everything like that. The UI is functional, but needlessly difficult to pay attention to.

Modding is good. Everyone can set things up as they want. Importantly though, DPS meters are ultimately just a visual UI mod.

You cannot argue away facts and i wasn’t suggest that this impacted the majority, that was not the point.

vesica tempestas.1563:

Damage meter cons:

-It makes a % of the populace uncomfortable
-A % of the populace that would otherwise not criticize others feel empowered by statistics to criticize (or worse) other people.
-A % of people will kick others based on a statistic
-It is just not needed outside highly tuned raid fights.
-It encourages subjective tunnel vision
-It does not measure altruistic behavior and in fact discourages it.

positives

It is good for highly tuned raid fights
Some people like to use stats to improve
Some people enjoy winning at meters and see it as part of the meta game

pros do not outweigh the cons in a game like GW2 where there is a power ceiling imo.

1,2 are irrelevant.
3 is a positive.
4 and 5 are not cons.
6 is a miss information.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

vesica tempestas.1563:

Damage meter cons:

-It makes a % of the populace uncomfortable
-A % of the populace that would otherwise not criticize others feel empowered by statistics to criticize (or worse) other people.
-A % of people will kick others based on a statistic
-It is just not needed outside highly tuned raid fights.
-It encourages subjective tunnel vision
-It does not measure altruistic behavior and in fact discourages it.

positives

It is good for highly tuned raid fights
Some people like to use stats to improve
Some people enjoy winning at meters and see it as part of the meta game

pros do not outweigh the cons in a game like GW2 where there is a power ceiling imo.

1,2 are irrelevant. its relevant to those people.
3 is a positive.
4 and 5 are not cons.
6 is a miss information.

lol this kind of attitude demonstrates exactly what im talking about – Kicking people is a good thing, tunnel vision is a good thing, think affecting people negatively for the sake of a niche mod is ‘irrelevant’ (actually what you are saying is other people being imapcted is irrelevant to you)

theres a well know and established behavior that directly correlates to dps meter use – dps kitten. You want to see the full effect of open meter use, go visit any wow raid any time – its the ultimate end product of meters.

vesica tempestas.1563:

lol this kind of attitude demonstrates exactly what im talking about – Kicking people is a good thing, tunnel vision is a good thing, think affecting people negatively for the sake of a niche mod is ‘irrelevant’.

Kicking people based on their performance instead of a prejudice is a good thing, tunnel vision is not a dps meter related problem, people getting offended by a .dll file is not a dps meter problem.

Carighan.6758:

vesica tempestas.1563:

pros do not outweigh the cons in a game like GW2 where there is a power ceiling imo.

That’s why ANet hasn’t made one. Point taken I suppose. But why would they be against modding the client, a feature absolutely positive in other MMORPGs which sadly is quite undersupported in GW2?

Being able to do something about the UI in general would be amazing. And since nothing the DPS meter does is actually some kind of magic (it checks the combat log for you), there’s no real magic there either. In the end, it’s a different view of the combat log, and little else.

But importantly, much of the current UI are elements I’d like to change. The raid frames, the HP bar, the cooldown wipers, everything like that. The UI is functional, but needlessly difficult to pay attention to.

Modding is good. Everyone can set things up as they want. Importantly though, DPS meters are ultimately just a visual UI mod.

I think one reasonable compromise is that meters could be permitted in raids only and perhaps training instances where there are target dummies. You could also allow dps meters outside of raids but only personal stats. best of both worlds, and more considerate towards the GW style of gameplay and culture.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

vesica tempestas.1563:

lol this kind of attitude demonstrates exactly what im talking about – Kicking people is a good thing, tunnel vision is a good thing, think affecting people negatively for the sake of a niche mod is ‘irrelevant’.

Kicking people based on their performance instead of a prejudice is a good thing, tunnel vision is not a dps meter related problem, people getting offended by a .dll file is not a dps meter problem.

As i said its a well know problem – ‘dps kitten’ is a recognized behavior. incidentally kicking someone based on performance is actually not a good thing in a game, its nasty. just the same as it would be nasty if you kicked a guildy out of a raid due to bad performance which ofc people do not do (its about respecting strangers as well as friends)

DPS meters make GW2 just another WoW.

Playing should be fun, not a competition.

vesica tempestas.1563:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

vesica tempestas.1563:

lol this kind of attitude demonstrates exactly what im talking about – Kicking people is a good thing, tunnel vision is a good thing, think affecting people negatively for the sake of a niche mod is ‘irrelevant’.

Kicking people based on their performance instead of a prejudice is a good thing, tunnel vision is not a dps meter related problem, people getting offended by a .dll file is not a dps meter problem.

As i said its a well know problem – ‘dps kitten’ is a recognized behavior. incidentally kicking someone based on performance is actually not a good thing in a game, its nasty. just the same as it would be nasty if you kicked a guildy out of a raid due to bad performance which ofc people do not do (its about respecting strangers as well as friends)

Really? Kicking someone for really bad performace is not ok but being unable to beat a boss is ok. So now because you can’t kick someone all the other 9 people need to pay the price that is wasting their time and not getting the kill because of 1 person?

Since when 1 person is more important than 9 other persons?

indeed, you value beating a boss (a bunch of pixels) more important than a group having fun together or screwing someone over. would they kick a friend? doubt it, its simply rudeness and lack of empathy.

vesica tempestas.1563:

indeed, you value beating a boss (a bunch of pixels) more important than a group having fun together or screwing someone over.

No, i value fun a lot, but what is fun that knowing that you never beat the boss because of this single person?
And most people would say that is way more fun to beat the boss than just getting wiped over and over again because of the same person.

you only have fun if you win/beat a boss?

if you were in a raid with 9 strangers and 1 friend and your friend was under performing – would you kick him, knowing he wants to stay and learn?

vesica tempestas.1563:

you only have fun if you wn/beat a boss?

if you were in a raid with 9 strangers and 1 friend and your friend was under performing – would you kick him, knowing he wants to stay and learn?

I’m not a child neither are my friends. We are all grown adults, so i can explain to him the mechanics, then if he keep failing, i can explain to him that we are not a training run, and we will need to replace him, and we will try again next time.
Him like an adult understand and dont cry “you are not my friend anymore snif snif”.

really lol, such is raiding these days i guess, go away! we wont have fun if we dont kill!

vesica tempestas.1563:

really lol, such is raiding these days i guess, go away! we wont have fun if we dont kill!

…eh, pug raiding has always been like that. Some but not all guild groups are similar; in my experience you can usually predict that based on things like “no drama” in their guild adverts.

Meanwhile, people raid on non-qtfy blessed builds, successfully, without meters or drama, all the time. They just don’t talk about it, because they are busy having fun and getting raids done.

OnizukaBR.8537:

vesica tempestas.1563:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

vesica tempestas.1563:

lol this kind of attitude demonstrates exactly what im talking about – Kicking people is a good thing, tunnel vision is a good thing, think affecting people negatively for the sake of a niche mod is ‘irrelevant’.

Kicking people based on their performance instead of a prejudice is a good thing, tunnel vision is not a dps meter related problem, people getting offended by a .dll file is not a dps meter problem.

As i said its a well know problem – ‘dps kitten’ is a recognized behavior. incidentally kicking someone based on performance is actually not a good thing in a game, its nasty. just the same as it would be nasty if you kicked a guildy out of a raid due to bad performance which ofc people do not do (its about respecting strangers as well as friends)

Really? Kicking someone for really bad performace is not ok but being unable to beat a boss is ok. So now because you can’t kick someone all the other 9 people need to pay the price that is wasting their time and not getting the kill because of 1 person?

Since when 1 person is more important than 9 other persons?

I was gonna say “worship the 1%” but they’re more like the 10%

Imo, Pugging should be the party experience with the lowest standards, I view it much like Quickplay in OW; a space where you trade the quality of your teammates for party building expedience, which is why I’m against things like DPS meters that can be used by everyone.
I see people who use DPS meters in the same way I see scummy players who throw matches when they see a hero they don’t like.
To those who say “why should I carry someone?” I say, “Because you chose to pug” You wanted speed over quality, if you aren’t willing to put in the effort, why should you get a high quality run?

For those who are truly interested in self improvement, I’d say join a guild and form a team dedicated to that exploit. I’d even support Anet making a DPSmeter as a Guild feature, but as it is now, it makes the lives of toxic players easier, and fosters a negative atmosphere in the PUG environment which I don’t care for. Wasn’t there that test golem too?
I find the very notion that you should have to form a guild or network of friends dedicated to doing Casual party play ridiculous.

Dual.8953:

Imo, Pugging should be the party experience with the lowest standards, I view it much like Quickplay in OW; a space where you trade the quality of your teammates for party building expedience, which is why I’m against things like DPS meters that can be used by everyone.
I see people who use DPS meters in the same way I see scummy players who throw matches when they see a hero they don’t like.
To those who say “why should I carry someone?” I say, “Because you chose to pug” You wanted speed over quality, if you aren’t willing to put in the effort, why should you get a high quality run?

For those who are truly interested in self improvement, I’d say join a guild and form a team dedicated to that exploit. I’d even support Anet making a DPSmeter as a Guild feature, but as it is now, it makes the lives of toxic players easier, and fosters a negative atmosphere in the PUG environment which I don’t care for. Wasn’t there that test golem too?
I find the very notion that you should have to form a guild or network of friends dedicated to doing Casual party play ridiculous.

Almost there, but you’re missing half of it

I really hope you realize the same exact same argument could be used to kick someone.

“Why did I get kicked?”
“Because you chose to pug. They have no obligation to play with you. You wanted convenience over effort”

For those of you that don’t want a hostile atmosphere filled with picky people, I’d say join a guild dedicated to not worrying about being optimal.

your suggesting its ok for pugs to have a potentially hostile atmosphere which is a bad thing in a community driven game right?

True story, 10 years ago people pugged in much much bigger raids and there was very little of the anti social behaviour we see now. Something changed, and that something has a lot to do with certain games and developers turning raids into a competitive thing (giving new skins with +x power is cheaper than developing new content)

vesica tempestas.1563:

Damage meter cons:

-It makes a % of the populace uncomfortable
-A % of the populace that would otherwise not criticize others feel empowered by statistics to criticize (or worse) other people.
-A % of people will kick others based on a statistic
-It is just not needed outside highly tuned raid fights.
-It encourages subjective tunnel vision
-It does not measure altruistic behavior and in fact discourages it.

positives

It is good for highly tuned raid fights
Some people like to use stats to improve
Some people enjoy winning at meters and see it as part of the meta game

pros do not outweigh the cons in a game like GW2 where there is a power ceiling imo.

1. Unless that % of players that are uncomfortable exceed a decent amount, then it’s not strong enough to use a reason to not have DPS meters. Because there’s a % of players that felt uncomfortable joining high end content due to not knowing if they were performing well enough to not be carried.

2. Very minor concern as the % of players here is likely small that would act in a negative way based on any judgements made. Kicking in and of itself is not negative, the how it’s done matters.

3. Those players will kick based on LI, AP, class, etc. It’s not a valid con as that % of players would kick based on other things. It’s actually lessens the problems of kicking based off of a single measurement. Because DPS is more of a indicator of skill at THAT specific boss, fight, etc than any of the other means players have used in the past to kick people based off of.

4. How is that a con? Just because it’s only wanted by those who do high end content doesn’t make it a con.

5. How is a specific number subjective? And if a group kicks based solely off of a number off of a DPS meter, then it’s their loss and not yours. You don’t want to play with them anyway.

6. How does a DPS meter discourage altruistic behavior? It only does if you’re playing with the group mentioned in #5 and you don’t want to play with those people anyway. Getting kicked by them isn’t a bad thing.

vesica tempestas.1563:

your suggesting its ok for pugs to have a potentially hostile atmosphere which is a bad thing in a community driven game right?

You do realize that we are playing an online game right? If anything I reckon the toxicity in raiding in general is still more mellow than previous open-world PvE content. Heaven forbid you fail a Silverwastes Vinewrath, or a guild opens up Tequatl early. The point we are trying to make here is that DPS meters are not going to cause a wipe-spread plague of toxicity throughout the whole game, they are specifically being used in a small part of the game intended for the most experienced players.

No one is going to pull up a DPS meter on Octovine,
No one is going to pull up a DPS meter in Fractals,
No one sees a need to run DPS meters in WvW and SPvP,
And certainly no one is going to pull up the DPS meter on any other known encounter in the game.

Only raids, which are difficult by design, see a productive use for the tool. Raids weren’t even intended to be pugged which seems to elude everyone discussing them, and yet everyone and their relatives wants in on them, for various reasons. And anyone pulling up an illegal DPS meter on the open world, calling out random players in map chat for doing so and so damage, and being a jerk in general deserves to be reported, and is likely a complete kitten even without the meter.

The DPS meter and how it is understood now by the players and how the devs have given their stance is fine now. It was smart of Arenanet to say that Gearchecking is illegal because it gives players a chance to show off what their builds can do in certain roles, maybe we will see some build be better than the meta, who knows?

Sykper.6583:

vesica tempestas.1563:

your suggesting its ok for pugs to have a potentially hostile atmosphere which is a bad thing in a community driven game right?

You do realize that we are playing an online game right? If anything I reckon the toxicity in raiding in general is still more mellow than previous open-world PvE content. Heaven forbid you fail a Silverwastes Vinewrath, or a guild opens up Tequatl early. The point we are trying to make here is that DPS meters are not going to cause a wipe-spread plague of toxicity throughout the whole game, they are specifically being used in a small part of the game intended for the most experienced players.

No one is going to pull up a DPS meter on Octovine,
No one is going to pull up a DPS meter in Fractals,
No one sees a need to run DPS meters in WvW and SPvP,
And certainly no one is going to pull up the DPS meter on any other known encounter in the game.

Only raids, which are difficult by design, see a productive use for the tool. Raids weren’t even intended to be pugged which seems to elude everyone discussing them, and yet everyone and their relatives wants in on them, for various reasons. And anyone pulling up an illegal DPS meter on the open world, calling out random players in map chat for doing so and so damage, and being a jerk in general deserves to be reported, and is likely a complete kitten even without the meter.

The DPS meter and how it is understood now by the players and how the devs have given their stance is fine now. It was smart of Arenanet to say that Gearchecking is illegal because it gives players a chance to show off what their builds can do in certain roles, maybe we will see some build be better than the meta, who knows?

i’ve already said if it was kept to raids it would be a decent compromise.

vesica tempestas.1563:

your suggesting its ok for pugs to have a potentially hostile atmosphere which is a bad thing in a community driven game right?

True story, 10 years ago people pugged in much much bigger raids and there was very little of the anti social behaviour we see now. Something changed, and that something has a lot to do with certain games and developers turning raids into a competitive thing (giving new skins with +x power is cheaper than developing new content)

I expect people to realize they need to be responsible for their own actions.

If you don’t want to drive fast, sure. But don’t go in the fast lane driving half the speed limit and pretend nothing is up. The converse is also true.

Both ends suffer from entitlement.

vesica tempestas.1563:

Kicking people is a good thing

Not truly what was said. Before, people were kicked over:

• LIs
• Achievement points
• Gear
• Weapon choice
• Skill choice

How is that better (or worse) than for DPS output? If anything, at least the DPS is related to the actual thing someone is doing, unlike the first 2 of those other points!

vesica tempestas.1563:

your suggesting its ok for pugs to have a potentially hostile atmosphere which is a bad thing in a community driven game right?

True story, 10 years ago people pugged in much much bigger raids and there was very little of the anti social behaviour we see now.

As someone who led raids, both guild and PUG runs, from Vanilla WoW all the way to the end of Cataclysm (Emerald Dream EU, same name), you are flat out wrong here.

Sorry to call you out like that. But if you truly believe that, you have a very strong case of rose-tinted nostalgia goggles.

I would say that in Vanilla, people were more or less like they were in GW2 since release (this hasn’t really changed recently, tbh, GW2 feels the same as ever). From TBC forward it became a lot more competitive as dungeons and raids could take a very long time so underperformers were immediately dealt with.

This relaxed only after LFR was added, but only for LFR. PUG a normal run, and it was the same as ever, understandably so as if anything fights had become even more mechanically challenging.

LFR was different by virtue of being so nerfed that it didn’t matter, plus the system built the raid for you. But in the end, really, LFR was too easy for even the most die-hards to truly care. You had the odd whining and complaints and yeah it was crazy to see DPSers do less damage than the healers, but no one had to care because the bosses died anyhow.

Anyhow the point is: No, it wasn’t like that. Really not.

As you can probably guess, you are not the only player who has raided. i raided from pre wow through to start of cata, including casual through to hardcore competing directly with IS on silvermoon. level of player is irrelevant though.

As i said 10 years ago which was before tbc and yes during vanilla time when people did indeed do 40 man pug raids – recall, random pug to MC, the only concern was decursing correctly and wearing fire res gear, there was never any booting people because they didnt do x dps etc.

And yes from end of vanilla onward it started to change, that’s what i said. and the competitive nature did in fact evolve alongside meters- that’s no coincidence.

Ever wonder why there wasn’t the same level of anti social behavior in GW1 raids?