Guild Wars 2

Very enjoyable post. Thank you for sharing. =)

Very enjoyable posts indeed.

Good post. Thanks for sharing.

Stark.1350:

I frequent the forums quite a bit and have read many posts about the end game and raids and such like that.

I liked your post, so please don’t take the following as criticism.

I suspect much of the desire for “raids” and “end-game” comes from a more basic desire for challenging content. We don’t need boring treadmills for entertainment, and I hope future MMOs refuse to milk players through such a tedious mechanic.

I think those of us who want depth—and this seems to be a rather large number of players if you have followed the fan forums, blogs, etc. since release—will be satisfied when dungeons become more than dps vs. hp sponge fights and rewards are commensurate with the level of effort and skill players demonstrate in dungeons. (For example, a hard mode could have a chance to drop a rare weapon skin.) Mechanics will need to be overhauled, but it can be done in such a way that the game is easy to learn but difficult to master—accessible to all, fun for all. (I don’t think this can be done until an expansion, however.)

There will always be people who don’t understand this game and want raiding progression tiers, but if ArenaNet satisfies the need for in-depth content, I suspect those kinds of posts will diminish significantly.

I say this as someone who has 100% map completion and done most of the activities you’ve mentioned in your list. I commend you for posting them, but I think something else is, at least in part, driving the discontent you see.

2.) WvW – afraid you’re not good at PvP? Or feel you don’t enjoy it? At least give this a shot. I was really frustrated with PvP myself and would like to see more modes, but WvW is on a different level and the giant battles can be an absolute riot.
3.) sPvP – why am I putting this here when I said I don’t enjoy it? I’ll tell you why. Once custom arenas are out, man it’ll be awesome having your own guild arena and doing guild matches for fun.

I think when WvW makes some necessary changes (AoE cap anyone?) and sPvP is finally balanced and fixed, we’ll see more people playing and enjoying the game. I know for any MMO I’ve played, PvP was the ultimate end-game, since the most stimulating challenge is competing against another human being. I’m not saying it’s that way for everyone, but I know for many it’s what keeps them coming back day after day.

Custom arenas are exciting, but without a reworking of the skills and traits in this game, I am not sure they will last as a competitive scene.

Most of the people that complain here on the forums aren’t casual players, so you’re kinda preaching to the wrong crowd. What you’re describing as features, will simply seem like a waste of time to any player looking for a challenge, in PvE. Sure there are plenty of things you can do. The problem is a lack of content that offers any attentive to requirements, and goals to strive for. Fractals is the only thing worth mentioning. Everything ells is simple just “something to do”. That is the problem.

Nice list. Apparently, I have much to do

nice post thanks for sharing.

Guns and Giblets.9308:

Stark.1350:

I frequent the forums quite a bit and have read many posts about the end game and raids and such like that.

I liked your post, so please don’t take the following as criticism.

I suspect much of the desire for “raids” and “end-game” comes from a more basic desire for challenging content. We don’t need boring treadmills for entertainment, and I hope future MMOs refuse to milk players through such a tedious mechanic.

I think those of us who want depth—and this seems to be a rather large number of players if you have followed the fan forums, blogs, etc. since release—will be satisfied when dungeons become more than dps vs. hp sponge fights and rewards are commensurate with the level of effort and skill players demonstrate in dungeons. (For example, a hard mode could have a chance to drop a rare weapon skin.) Mechanics will need to be overhauled, but it can be done in such a way that the game is easy to learn but difficult to master—accessible to all, fun for all. (I don’t think this can be done until an expansion, however.)

There will always be people who don’t understand this game and want raiding progression tiers, but if ArenaNet satisfies the need for in-depth content, I suspect those kinds of posts will diminish significantly.

I say this as someone who has 100% map completion and done most of the activities you’ve mentioned in your list. I commend you for posting them, but I think something else is, at least in part, driving the discontent you see.

2.) WvW – afraid you’re not good at PvP? Or feel you don’t enjoy it? At least give this a shot. I was really frustrated with PvP myself and would like to see more modes, but WvW is on a different level and the giant battles can be an absolute riot.
3.) sPvP – why am I putting this here when I said I don’t enjoy it? I’ll tell you why. Once custom arenas are out, man it’ll be awesome having your own guild arena and doing guild matches for fun.

I think when WvW makes some necessary changes (AoE cap anyone?) and sPvP is finally balanced and fixed, we’ll see more people playing and enjoying the game. I know for any MMO I’ve played, PvP was the ultimate end-game, since the most stimulating challenge is competing against another human being. I’m not saying it’s that way for everyone, but I know for many it’s what keeps them coming back day after day.

Custom arenas are exciting, but without a reworking of the skills and traits in this game, I am not sure they will last as a competitive scene.

Well said reply, and good post OP. This is a good primer for people looking for something to occupy their time if they have not done so already, thanks

Kasama.8941:

Most of the people that complain here on the forums aren’t casual players, so you’re kinda preaching to the wrong crowd. What you’re describing as features, will simply seem like a waste of time to any player looking for a challenge, in PvE. Sure there are plenty of things you can do. The problem is a lack of content that offers any attentive to requirements, and goals to strive for. Fractals is the only thing worth mentioning. Everything ells is simple just “something to do”. That is the problem.

The entire point of video games is to give us “something to do”.

darkace.8925:

Kasama.8941:

Most of the people that complain here on the forums aren’t casual players, so you’re kinda preaching to the wrong crowd. What you’re describing as features, will simply seem like a waste of time to any player looking for a challenge, in PvE. Sure there are plenty of things you can do. The problem is a lack of content that offers any attentive to requirements, and goals to strive for. Fractals is the only thing worth mentioning. Everything ells is simple just “something to do”. That is the problem.

The entire point of video games is to give us “something to do”.

I strongly disagree. Gaming has a far larger entertainment value then simply wasting your time. There’s a reason why it’s the fastest growing entertainment industry in the world.

Great post Op, that is my “end game”
Just running around exploring and hanging out with my guild makes up for any thing I could consider to be missing from GW2 gameplay mechanics wise, There is still room to improve, but GW2 is still just in its infancy, great games take lotsa tweaking and expanding to make them legendary!

@Kasama , what could be the pragmatical “larger value” of gaming, regardless of its growing tendencies?

could it be that some like actually doing stuff rather than just watching others do stuff? or find that more entertaining?

Totally agree with the OP. Just made lvl 80 on my main, and I’m just getting started in this game.

I never felt the carrot in GW. I loved doing the dungeons there and missions, testing out my skill bar and heroes. Usually grabbed a new player or two while I done this and helped them complete the mission they were stuck on. I guess I like a carrot that I manage to get my teeth onto while I’m having fun. Christ I saved up for Obby armour just doing random and dailies etc. In this game, I don’t really have that option.

Thanks for the replies, hoping that list helps people out.

Kasama.8941:

darkace.8925:

Kasama.8941:

Most of the people that complain here on the forums aren’t casual players, so you’re kinda preaching to the wrong crowd. What you’re describing as features, will simply seem like a waste of time to any player looking for a challenge, in PvE. Sure there are plenty of things you can do. The problem is a lack of content that offers any attentive to requirements, and goals to strive for. Fractals is the only thing worth mentioning. Everything ells is simple just “something to do”. That is the problem.

The entire point of video games is to give us “something to do”.

I strongly disagree. Gaming has a far larger entertainment value then simply wasting your time. There’s a reason why it’s the fastest growing entertainment industry in the world.

Giving you something to do is very different than wasting your time. Movies are entertainment. They give you something to do. They dont’ waste your time (unless you don’t like them in which case, you could consider a waste of time).

All any MMO ever really does is give you things to do. Whether you have to get this gear, or get this achievement, or beat this boss. It’s just something to do. If you enjoy it, it’s not a waste of time. It’s still something to do.

Darn from this list all i got left is finish my legendary and finish all the crafting :/
(i think i played too much).
OP you forgot to add thirst slayer on that check list.

I think the biggest reason why gear treadmills are effective is because it is a quantifiable improvement. When players grind out endlessly for these things, they can manage it because it truly feels like self improvement to them. The irony is thick here. At the end you get bigger numbers, get shinier gear, and become part of a more exclusive club.

I’m an immigrant from City of Heroes, though, so I’m full of alts with different builds and wearing spandex while shouting cheesy catchphrases from atop buildings.

While the post contained no new info for me, I applaud the OP on the format (question and answer) and quality of his post. Nicely done! Artificial achievements (dungeon master, etc) are, unfortunately, not my thing though. I prefer to set my own goals, I get a kick out of achieving those instead usually doesn’t give me a title or points though, but they’re usually harder than the fixed ones.

Vayne.8563:

Kasama.8941:

darkace.8925:

Kasama.8941:

Most of the people that complain here on the forums aren’t casual players, so you’re kinda preaching to the wrong crowd. What you’re describing as features, will simply seem like a waste of time to any player looking for a challenge, in PvE. Sure there are plenty of things you can do. The problem is a lack of content that offers any attentive to requirements, and goals to strive for. Fractals is the only thing worth mentioning. Everything ells is simple just “something to do”. That is the problem.

The entire point of video games is to give us “something to do”.

I strongly disagree. Gaming has a far larger entertainment value then simply wasting your time. There’s a reason why it’s the fastest growing entertainment industry in the world.

Giving you something to do is very different than wasting your time. Movies are entertainment. They give you something to do. They dont’ waste your time (unless you don’t like them in which case, you could consider a waste of time).

All any MMO ever really does is give you things to do. Whether you have to get this gear, or get this achievement, or beat this boss. It’s just something to do. If you enjoy it, it’s not a waste of time. It’s still something to do.

Psychologically it is the same thing. If you’re just doing something for no apparent reason, it is a waste of your time, considering that you could be spending that time on something that you have some form of emotional stake in. Why should game developers care about making valuable quality content in games, if all you expect from them is “something to do”? Sending the message that “I don’t have any expectations, as long as I have something to do” is a lazy and ignorant point of view. It’s a very big part of what’s dragging the overall quality of games down today.

I don’t just play a game so I have something to do, I have played games for the last 20 years because it’s something I love to do. And in the same respect, if I go watch a movie, I do it because it looks like it’s actually worth my time. Not just to give me something to do.

I agree completely.

I’ve said before I feel like I’m at an advantage sometimes because I came to this game from single-player RPGs and GW1. In both cases levelling up and getting gear was never presented as a goal in it’s own right, certainly not THE thing to aim for. It was just a tool to enable you to do the new content, and getting to experience and complete that content was the goal to aim for.

(Admittedly there was a fairly large group whose approach to GW1 was ‘power level, get a run to a few key missions, then go and farm UW/FoW forever more to get ecto/gold ASAP so you can buy…what I never knew. They already had max stat gear for one character, weren’t doing most of the game and seemed to have little/no interest in cosmetics. But it was easy to ignore that crowd if you weren’t interested in that type of play.)

So I never got into that ‘chasing the carrot’ mentality in the first place and never had that shock of trying to break out of it or not knowing what to do when I started this game. When I got to level 80 I felt like I still had 1,001 things to do. I did go and get a full set of exotic armor (bought with karma I already had saved up) first, but that was just to get it out of the way. Then I went right back to playing and enjoying the content I had been working my way through before.

I approach this game a lot like The Elder Scrolls. The point of playing is to see and do everything, or everything you’re interested in anyway. Stuff you get along the way is either just a tool to help you do it or a cool decoration to remind you/show off that you have.

I don’t know, the carrot on the stick is sorta like human nature isn’t it? If there was no carrot on the stick we’d still be banging rocks together.

Removing the carrot is like being happy you still live with mom and dad when you’re 50, not even having your drivers license ect.. It’s not good practice in real life, and it’s not good practice in video games.

Nappychappy.7046:

I don’t know, the carrot on the stick is sorta like human nature isn’t it? If there was no carrot on the stick we’d still be banging rocks together.

Removing the carrot is like being happy you still live with mom and dad when you’re 50, not even having your drivers license ect.. It’s not good practice in real life, and it’s not good practice in video games.

Carrots on sticks are not the same as having goals. That’s something many people seem to mistake. A carrot on a stick is a goal you will never reach or better a goal you reach but it gets immedeately devaluated because there is a new one. Gearprogression for example works this way. You reach the best possible gear but some weeks later there is new best gear and the chase begins again.

There is nothing wrong with having goals and wanting to achieve something but in my opinion this constant hunt for something is making someone as unhappy as having no goals at all.

Edit: Just to add an anecdote: Even my hamster was recognising that always running in the same direction while never getting anywhere is stupid. So he was running in his hamsterweel and tried to change the direction in between. Guess what happened. xD (No hamster was hurt^^)

The “carrot” is ultimately about giving players a feeling of competency. There’s nothing wrong with that. We always want to feel like we’re good at what we do, and that’s perfectly healthy.

If GW2 is able to improve upon/reinvent the “hamster wheel” system commonly used in MMOs, that would be great. Obviously, there’s room for improvement there. However, I feel that this game currently does a poor job of making you feel accomplished/competent (but it has improved since launch).

GW1 seemed to do a really good job of making people feel like they were achieving something without any gear progression after getting to max level. In terms of stats there weren’t any tiers at all after you reached level 20, and only 2 cosmetic tiers.

There were 2 kinds of armor: Regular ‘1k’ sets with maximum stats but relatively uninteresting skins which cost a small number of materials plus 1,000 gold a piece (there was no copper or silver so 1k gold was the equivalent of about 1g in GW2 money). Then there were elite sets which cost 15k each, plus more/rarer materials. They had exactly the same stats but (usually) better skins.

Admittedly the real cost was the insignias and runes you needed (armor itself only gave a defence bonus and a small boost to one stat), for popular builds it could cost several times what you paid for the armor but even then there were no tiers. You got the ones you wanted and you were done unless you wanted to change your build.

It was largely the same with weapons, they did have tiers very similar to this game (except the colours were in a different order – white, blue, purple, gold, green with green being like legendaries – different skins but no stronger) but getting max stat weapons was relatively easy and cheap and once you had the one(s) you wanted you were done. Aside from the introduction of green weapons shortly after release they never added a tier.

This is the post that I’ve wanted to write for a long time.

Anyway… I feel fractals should be added to the list.