Builds Are Now Outfits: Bye Choice Hi Clones
Current Staff Elementalist dps build:
6/2/2/2/2, getting all damage modifers and in general doing only damage.
V/VII/XI, VI, VI, VI, V total damage modifiers: 40%
With the new trait system I can get
6/6/6/0/0, get more survivability (GM Earth traits for “free” without affecting your DPS), have the same damage modifiers. It’s 40% with Enduring Damage over Vital Striking
So I will be losing Blasting Staff but gain access to many new abilities, will apply more vulnerability, get Access to GM Air trait, for example Tempest Defense for an extra damage modifier with a Frost Bow while I can choose between Diamond Skin and Stone Heart, based on the encounter for extra defense. All while keeping the same, if not MORE DPS than the old build. It’s a boost (can be a big one too) for a Staff Elementalist
I’m sure if you try you can modify any build to be better with the new system.
Go on, stack more than 25 vuln done by engie or Lightning storm, and never reach the defensive utility with a good guardian.
“Getting what you do not need for free” is what feels so cheap. You’re not getting it for free, you’re sacrificing what you need. You might need larger staff AoE which I find extremely useful, or longer blinks, or vigor on crit, or weapon CD reduction, or illusion CD reduction, but instead you get nearly useless stuff for free.
20 level 80s and counting.
Even those builds that use 4 or 5 trait lines can see a benefit from the new system.
Well they would get the benefit if it was just 4 added trait points but its a different since you can only have 3 trait lines so really they don’t get any benefit and quite the opposite since it makes that build impossible.
They are just making the subsets stronger since i doubt you could have a build that doesn’t completely specialize on a type of utility skill in this new system.
Thinking about it the new system feels like a typical adventure game where you chose one of 5 diverse looking characters to go through the story with and they have a unique skills and that’s it, with maybe a few choices of choosing different skills upgrades.
Current Staff Elementalist dps build:
6/2/2/2/2, getting all damage modifers and in general doing only damage.
V/VII/XI, VI, VI, VI, V total damage modifiers: 40%
With the new trait system I can get
6/6/6/0/0, get more survivability (GM Earth traits for “free” without affecting your DPS), have the same damage modifiers. It’s 40% with Enduring Damage over Vital Striking
So I will be losing Blasting Staff but gain access to many new abilities, will apply more vulnerability, get Access to GM Air trait, for example Tempest Defense for an extra damage modifier with a Frost Bow while I can choose between Diamond Skin and Stone Heart, based on the encounter for extra defense. All while keeping the same, if not MORE DPS than the old build. It’s a boost (can be a big one too) for a Staff Elementalist
I’m sure if you try you can modify any build to be better with the new system.Go on, stack more than 25 vuln done by engie or Lightning storm, and never reach the defensive utility with a good guardian.
“Getting what you do not need for free” is what feels so cheap. You’re not getting it for free, you’re sacrificing what you need. You might need longer blinks or vigor on crit or weapon CD reduction, but instead you get nearly useless stuff for free.
You choose to depend your entire build on having an engie, or a specific skill, or having a team mate (a Guardian) with a specific build so they can carry you and your “stack all damage modifiers” Elementalist? And you see no problem with it?
Even so, here is a newsflash since you didn’t even read the build. The 6/6/6 build does exactly what the 6/2/2/2/2 build does in terms of DPS, if not MORE with Tempest Defense and Frost bow, while it also does more things. That vulnerability is EXTRA from the other build, the extra defensive utility from Earth traits is also EXTRA from the other build. You get what you had, plus some extras, you might not want the extras, but surely other players might.
Even those builds that use 4 or 5 trait lines can see a benefit from the new system.
Well they would get the benefit if it was just 4 added trait points but its a different since you can only have 3 trait lines so really they don’t get any benefit and quite the opposite since it makes that build impossible.
They are just making the subsets stronger since i doubt you could have a build that doesn’t completely specialize on a type of utility skill in this new system.
Thinking about it the new system feels like a typical adventure game where you chose one of 5 diverse looking characters to go through the story with and they have a unique skills and that’s it, with maybe a few choices of choosing different skills upgrades.
Having 3 full trait lines allows access to more grandmaster traits, which are powerful and can define a build. Although it will be impossible to replicate a build that uses 4 or 5 trait lines, the access to extra grandmaster traits can really make up for it.
Diversity is confusing to new players therefore it needs to be removed…
Yeah they are confused and use bad useless traits and builds. Diversity for the sake of diversity isn’t good for any game.
you cant get real diversity with out having options some people dont like. lowering the amount of options does not intrinsicly increase the quality of options.
people are mistakenly linking having less options to having better options. There is no coorelation between number of options, and how good your options are.
It’s not a mistake. Less options available can be more easily balanced, so less options can also be better options.
less options are not always more easily balanced.
but even assuming it is.
easier to balance does not mean more viable options.
supposedly this game was already easier to balance, but ill tell you right now, with no uncertainty, GW1 had more viable options
Even those builds that use 4 or 5 trait lines can see a benefit from the new system.
Well they would get the benefit if it was just 4 added trait points but its a different since you can only have 3 trait lines so really they don’t get any benefit and quite the opposite since it makes that build impossible.
They are just making the subsets stronger since i doubt you could have a build that doesn’t completely specialize on a type of utility skill in this new system.
Thinking about it the new system feels like a typical adventure game where you chose one of 5 diverse looking characters to go through the story with and they have a unique skills and that’s it, with maybe a few choices of choosing different skills upgrades.
Having 3 full trait lines allows access to more grandmaster traits, which are powerful and can define a build. Although it will be impossible to replicate a build that uses 4 or 5 trait lines, the access to extra grandmaster traits can really make up for it.
in terms of power? sure, in terms of being able to get what you really want? not really.
Diversity is confusing to new players therefore it needs to be removed…
Yeah they are confused and use bad useless traits and builds. Diversity for the sake of diversity isn’t good for any game.
you cant get real diversity with out having options some people dont like. lowering the amount of options does not intrinsicly increase the quality of options.
people are mistakenly linking having less options to having better options. There is no coorelation between number of options, and how good your options are.
It’s not a mistake. Less options available can be more easily balanced, so less options can also be better options.
less options are not always more easily balanced.
but even assuming it is.
easier to balance does not mean more viable options.
supposedly this game was already easier to balance, but ill tell you right now, with no uncertainty, GW1 had more viable options
Had more viable options out of how many available options? 10 viable options out of 100 possible ones is a 10%, 100 valid options out of 10000 is 1%. GW1 might have had more viable options, but it had way way more completely trash options too.
You choose to depend your entire build on having an engie, or a specific skill, or having a team mate (a Guardian) with a specific build so they can carry you and your “stack all damage modifiers” Elementalist? And you see no problem with it?
Welcome to the well-known endgame of the veteran players of GW2: clearing group content in the most efficient way.
Even so, here is a newsflash since you didn’t even read the build. The 6/6/6 build does exactly what the 6/2/2/2/2 build does in terms of DPS, if not MORE…
Doesn’t it sound hilarious to you that a build with 4 more trait points does exactly the same or maybe even more?
20 level 80s and counting.
The funny thing is that with every restriction of build diversity someone stand up and say: “But now we will have better balance!”.
It was the same when Guild Wars 2 originally released and the old Guild Wars 1 fans complained about locket Weaponskills. So I´m really interessed if that promised “better balance” really happened. Unfortunaly I am not really into PvP and in PvE you can do what you want (unless you want to do speedrun). So hopefully anyone can answer me if we know have that paradies of balance which justifies the 90% reduction of Build Choices at the start of GW2?
(edited by Gomes.5643)
You choose to depend your entire build on having an engie, or a specific skill, or having a team mate (a Guardian) with a specific build so they can carry you and your “stack all damage modifiers” Elementalist? And you see no problem with it?
Welcome to the well-known endgame of the veteran players of GW2: clearing group content in the most efficient way.
And the trait change will allow you to do just that as you always did without changing playstyle. Although with slightly more DPS allowing your group to finish content even more efficiently. Sure the Staff Ele is just an example I haven’t gone and played with all builds out there because we still don’t know the rest of the changes to the traits and skills. They might surprise everyone with dumb changes that make no sense and really really ruin builds but I’d rather be positive than negative.
Even so, here is a newsflash since you didn’t even read the build. The 6/6/6 build does exactly what the 6/2/2/2/2 build does in terms of DPS, if not MORE…
Doesn’t it sound hilarious to you that a build with 4 more trait points does exactly the same or maybe even more?
Well it all depends on the new GM traits and how they change the skills.
I’d rather focus on those exact specific changes though as from what we DO know the new system does sound better than the old one. It will be a huge buff to anyone not using 4 or 5 trait lines and for anyone else it will all depend on how the reworked / tweaked GM traits will be like.
I DO hope they release information on the actual trait lines like they did with Water Magic BEFORE it goes live. And that’s one thing Anet has been known to do the bad way. I hope they learned their lesson
Diversity is confusing to new players therefore it needs to be removed…
Yeah they are confused and use bad useless traits and builds. Diversity for the sake of diversity isn’t good for any game.
you cant get real diversity with out having options some people dont like. lowering the amount of options does not intrinsicly increase the quality of options.
people are mistakenly linking having less options to having better options. There is no coorelation between number of options, and how good your options are.
It’s not a mistake. Less options available can be more easily balanced, so less options can also be better options.
less options are not always more easily balanced.
but even assuming it is.
easier to balance does not mean more viable options.
supposedly this game was already easier to balance, but ill tell you right now, with no uncertainty, GW1 had more viable options
Had more viable options out of how many available options? 10 viable options out of 100 possible ones is a 10%, 100 valid options out of 10000 is 1%. GW1 might have had more viable options, but it had way way more completely trash options too.
if your goal is viable options it doesnt matter how many trash options there are. All that matters is how many viable thing you get in the end.
If your goal is for people not to make crappy choices, then it helps, but those are two different reasons.
You would be better off creating standard builds for people who make crappy choices. and letting people customize.
take a look at their plan, its not really about creating more viable builds. Its about more about less options so people pick meta builds without trying too hard. I highly doubt changes like what they showed for water will create more viable builds than were there before.
the focus is simplification not an increase in quality of choice.
Even those builds that use 4 or 5 trait lines can see a benefit from the new system.
Well they would get the benefit if it was just 4 added trait points but its a different since you can only have 3 trait lines so really they don’t get any benefit and quite the opposite since it makes that build impossible.
They are just making the subsets stronger since i doubt you could have a build that doesn’t completely specialize on a type of utility skill in this new system.
Thinking about it the new system feels like a typical adventure game where you chose one of 5 diverse looking characters to go through the story with and they have a unique skills and that’s it, with maybe a few choices of choosing different skills upgrades.
Having 3 full trait lines allows access to more grandmaster traits, which are powerful and can define a build. Although it will be impossible to replicate a build that uses 4 or 5 trait lines, the access to extra grandmaster traits can really make up for it.
Giving me more power doesn’t make up for the less diversity to me. I like to feel unique and not run what everyone is running but the new trait system (if i guess correctly) will make it so the advantage for purely specializing for one utility skill type will be grossly more powerful then a build that tries to mix and match with anything. I mean obviously every trait option won’t effect utility skills but they will be more obviously optimal for them, leading everyone who specializes in lets say trap ranger, to go into every trait that gives the most condition benefits. They wont bother putting in points somewhere else for nice traits they might give condi cleanse or movespeed since they will have to give up a whole other trait line and that is just not worth it.
Diversity is confusing to new players therefore it needs to be removed…
Yeah they are confused and use bad useless traits and builds. Diversity for the sake of diversity isn’t good for any game.
you cant get real diversity with out having options some people dont like. lowering the amount of options does not intrinsicly increase the quality of options.
people are mistakenly linking having less options to having better options. There is no coorelation between number of options, and how good your options are.
It’s not a mistake. Less options available can be more easily balanced, so less options can also be better options.
less options are not always more easily balanced.
but even assuming it is.
easier to balance does not mean more viable options.
supposedly this game was already easier to balance, but ill tell you right now, with no uncertainty, GW1 had more viable options
Had more viable options out of how many available options? 10 viable options out of 100 possible ones is a 10%, 100 valid options out of 10000 is 1%. GW1 might have had more viable options, but it had way way more completely trash options too.
if your goal is viable options it doesnt matter how many trash options there are. All that matters is how many viable thing you get in the end.
If your goal is for people not to make crappy choices, then it helps, but those are two different reasons.
You would be better off creating standard builds for people who make crappy choices. and letting people customize.
take a look at their plan, its not really about creating more viable builds. Its about more about less options so people pick meta builds without trying too hard. I highly doubt changes like what they showed for water will create more viable builds than were there before.
the focus is simplification not an increase in quality of choice.
It all depends how the rest of the traits will work, however just by having 3 full trait lines you unlock a lot of viable builds. Of course with builds that use 4 or 5 trait lines it will tricky but for builds that use 3 trait lines, I think there will be more viable builds as variations of the original one.
For example, a 6/6/0/0/6 D/D Thief will be similar to the current 6/6/0/0/2 Thief, only with extra abilities from having Trickery maxed, reduced Steal cd, master and GM traits to choose from etc
Since the rest of the build has the potential to be the same (we don’t if it will be 100% the same yet) and the 6/6/0/0/2 is a viable one, then the extra traits can only be seen as more variety for that Thief build. You can do what you always could do, only with some extra options so in a sense it will create more viable options.
How many builds are you using each day? hundreds or thousands? Which fraction of the currently available build pool, are you using each day? 1%, 20% or 80%? How many builds have you played and tested so far? 5k or over 20k?
I am very eager to know it in order to get an imagination how drastic the consequences of reduce build diversity are for players
How many builds are you using each day? hundreds or thousands? Which fraction of the currently available build pool, are you using each day? 1%, 20% or 80%? How many builds have you played and tested so far? 5k or over 20k?
I would use at least 3 builds a day if we got build templates. However a core feature of GW1 seems to be impossible for developers to execute in the sequel.
How many builds are you using each day? hundreds or thousands? Which fraction of the currently available build pool, are you using each day? 1%, 20% or 80%? How many builds have you played and tested so far? 5k or over 20k?
I would use at least 3 builds a day if we got build templates. However a core feature of GW1 seems to be impossible for developers to execute in the sequel.
They changed how traits work multiple times, it makes sense for them to be waiting for the traits to become stable before releasing save / load trait functionality. Let’s all hope this trait change is the last one so save / load might become a reality soon as well.
Btw, this is from the AMA thread:
This also means we’ll be going over every single trait in their current iteration in our development environment
Let’s hope it means more than just the Water Magic traits, if they show us a good variety of them we will be able to discuss actual build variety and choice tomorrow.
How many builds are you using each day? hundreds or thousands? Which fraction of the currently available build pool, are you using each day? 1%, 20% or 80%? How many builds have you played and tested so far? 5k or over 20k?
I would use at least 3 builds a day if we got build templates. However a core feature of GW1 seems to be impossible for developers to execute in the sequel.
They changed how traits work multiple times, it makes sense for them to be waiting for the traits to become stable before releasing save / load trait functionality. Let’s all hope this trait change is the last one so save / load might become a reality soon as well.
Btw, this is from the AMA thread:
This also means we’ll be going over every single trait in their current iteration in our development environment
Let’s hope it means more than just the Water Magic traits, if they show us a good variety of them we will be able to discuss actual build variety and choice tomorrow.
Yeah, I expect it’s time for this game to move from beta state, after 3 years you know.
This is why this game can’t be better. They are changing all the time core functions, everything is being blowed up and created again. This is why we have no content for 3 years. Because they seem to have no plan.
How many builds are you using each day? hundreds or thousands? Which fraction of the currently available build pool, are you using each day? 1%, 20% or 80%? How many builds have you played and tested so far? 5k or over 20k?
I would use at least 3 builds a day if we got build templates. However a core feature of GW1 seems to be impossible for developers to execute in the sequel.
^ Build crafting is fun. Saving builds and tweaking them later or running them in certain places in the game would be cool. This new system is paring things down immensely.
I will be OK with them doing this if it means we get skill splits for WvW/PvP/PvE. There is zero reason we can’t get skill splits now. Which in turn would mean templates would be really beneficial. Select a preset and go from format to format at a whim.
My conclusion from all of this is that ArenaNet is catering to a wholly different audience than it once did. Creativity is being stifled for players who can actually play. It’s too bad.
Leader of The Guernsey Milking Coalition [MiLk] Sanctum of Rall
Wow, my interest for GW2 just dropped to minus 10.
First they destroyed WvW with the Stab changes.
I thought fine, i will just play PvP; With the Specialisation, we will get another layer of complexity. But now it seems that they dumb down the Build-system even more. Definitely not going to the Expansion on release, i will just wait and see.
Remember when they said:
“We want it to be much easier to experiment with and learn new builds as you explore the world of Tyria.”
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/traits-unleashed-forty-new-traits-and-more/
Remember what we actually got with the trait system redesign? Remember the big thread about it? Remember the dev responses in that thread? Remember the new thread about it, and the dev responses there? Remember how NPE was subject to ‘over a year’s worth of testing’ and yet still managed to wreak havoc on the personal story, among other things? Remember how long its taken for them to get around to doing anything positive or constructive about any of this?
Why would anyone here think this is going to be any different?
The table is a fable.
Remember when they said:
“We want it to be much easier to experiment with and learn new builds as you explore the world of Tyria.”
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/traits-unleashed-forty-new-traits-and-more/
Remember what we actually got with the trait system redesign? Remember the big thread about it? Remember the dev responses in that thread? Remember the new thread about it, and the dev responses there? Remember how NPE was subject to ‘over a year’s worth of testing’ and yet still managed to wreak havoc on the personal story, among other things? Remember how long its taken for them to get around to doing anything positive or constructive about any of this?
Why would anyone here think this is going to be any different?
dunno, the game is in beta state for 3 years to me, I kinda got used to it and stopped buying gems.
For those who think that the number of possible builds is low:
You get to chose 3 out of 6 (5 old + 1 new spec) trait lines. This gives you:
6!/((6-3)!*3!)) = 20 possible ways to select trait lines.
each line has 3 points of 3 choices so:
3*3*3 = 3^3 per line or
(3^3)^3 = 19683 in total.
This results in 19683 * 20 = 393 660 different builds by traits alone.
Yes this is lower than the current number of possible different trait setups (only calculated the number of builds with 2 lines with 6 points and already got ~250k different builds), but i believe that is enough so that people can be different if they want to. Optimal builds will always only be a handfull or less, no matter if it’s the old or the new system. That some current builds will not be possible is also not surprising, every trait change destroys some old build but also allows some new ones.
For those who think that the number of possible builds is low:
You get to chose 3 out of 6 (5 old + 1 new spec) trait lines. This gives you:
6!/((6-3)!3!)) = 20 possible ways to select trait lines.
each line has 3 points of 3 choices so:
33*3 = 3^3 per line or
(3^3)^3 = 19683 in total.
This results in 19683 * 20 = 393 660 different builds by traits alone.Yes this is lower than the current number of possible different trait setups (only calculated the number of builds with 2 lines with 6 points and already got ~250k different builds), but i believe that is enough so that people can be different if they want to. Optimal builds will always only be a handfull or less, no matter if it’s the old or the new system. That some current builds will not be possible is also not surprising, every trait change destroys some old build but also allows some new ones.
dont count the new trait line, thats only for HOT, better compare same with same, which gives you 10 options.
dont count the new trait line, thats only for HOT, better compare same with same, which gives you 10 options.
Why? It’s about the total number of possible trait combinations now and in HoT. Yes you can currently not specialize, but in hot you cant take more than 3 lines.
dont count the new trait line, thats only for HOT, better compare same with same, which gives you 10 options.
Why? It’s about the total number of possible trait combinations now and in HoT. Yes you can currently not specialize, but in hot you cant take more than 3 lines.
because if they hadnt done this change, you would have had a 6th line with 13 possible options and be able to use lower teirs in higher teired slots, which would have been an even greater variety of choices than before.
also, not everyone will buy HoT. So the fact that Hot would double their options is no balm for the variety they lost.
For those who think that the number of possible builds is low:
You get to chose 3 out of 6 (5 old + 1 new spec) trait lines. This gives you:
6!/((6-3)!*3!)) = 20 possible ways to select trait lines. each line has 3 points of 3 choices so: 3*3*3 = 3^3 per line or (3^3)^3 = 19683 in total. This results in 19683 * 20 = 393 660 different builds by traits alone.Yes this is lower than the current number of possible different trait setups (only calculated the number of builds with 2 lines with 6 points and already got ~250k different builds), but i believe that is enough so that people can be different if they want to. Optimal builds will always only be a handfull or less, no matter if it’s the old or the new system. That some current builds will not be possible is also not surprising, every trait change destroys some old build but also allows some new ones.
You can either take 3 core lines or 2 core lines and 1 elite line, not always 3 lines.
20 level 80s and counting.
dont count the new trait line, thats only for HOT, better compare same with same, which gives you 10 options.
Why? It’s about the total number of possible trait combinations now and in HoT. Yes you can currently not specialize, but in hot you cant take more than 3 lines.
because if they hadnt done this change, you would have had a 6th line with 13 possible options and be able to use lower teirs in higher teired slots, which would have been an even greater variety of choices than before.
Who says anything that we would have gotten a 6th line if they had not changed the system? That is just an assumption. Maybe they said “when we change the trait system we take away to many possibilities, so let’s add a new trait line”, which would mean only because they changed the trait system they added specializations. (also only an assumption of course, but based on as much information as you have)
You can either take 3 core lines or 2 core lines and 1 elite line, not always 3 lines.
For the moment those are identical, only when they add a second specialization does it get difficult.
edit: Ok it does not get difficult, the number of possible trait line combinations would become:
5! /((5-3)!*3!) + 5!/((5-2)!*2!) * number of specializations
(3 core lines) + (2 core lines) * number of spec
currently: 10 + 10*1 = 20
This also shows that every spec they add, adds 196 830 new trait builds.
(edited by Bohantopa.5729)
So you are basically saying that to get things done faster and more easily than intended you exploit the flaws and loopholes in balance, things that should have never been possible in the first place but ArenaNet completely overlooked, and now that they are making changes may or may not get rid of some of them, you have no intentions to adapt to the new system, or even give it a chance to see if you can work with it, without even seeing the full list of changes.
For all you know all the ‘damage traits’ you are complaining about could have been rolled into the same line.
Well… how do you expect me to sympathize with that?
After the AMA today we might have enough information to compare some of the old builds with the new ones, then we can see for real, with actual data, if variety and diversity will be increased or reduced.
As people mentioned before, the current amount of meta builds is rather low, despite the large variety of options. Let’s see if with the new system we will get more viable builds or less, I could care less about the overall amount of possible builds, viable / playable builds matter the most.
After the AMA today we might have enough information to compare some of the old builds with the new ones, then we can see for real, with actual data, if variety and diversity will be increased or reduced.
As people mentioned before, the current amount of meta builds is rather low, despite the large variety of options. Let’s see if with the new system we will get more viable builds or less, I could care less about the overall amount of possible builds, viable / playable builds matter the most.
you will likely get the same or less. truth is most trait lines had at least 9 good traits in them already.
just a matter of what you were interested in doing.
looking at their example, they will merge most traits together.
there simply is not enough variety with only 3 choices per line to make a noticeable impact on viability. many traits are linked to certain playstyles.
the thing that has a chance of increasing viability is decoupling stats from traits, but that did not require the other changes in order to work.
the other thing that may help, is making better traits, but since they are cutting total traits, that wont effect much since it will have to canabalize or become a part of some other build that already existed, and not be a real option.
but if i am wrong, i am wrong. time will soon tell us
They are getting rid of a lot of traits, preventing you from using adept traits in master slots and forcing you to only use 3 trait lines. We now will only have 3 trait options per slot which is severely limiting.
How anyone can say that increases build diversity is beyond me as its far more restrictive and many builds will no longer exist as a direct result.
Then add the fact certain stats such a +boon duration are not on armour but were tied to trait lines. How will Anet address that? or will they at all? Most likely they will expect us to eat the stat & trait loss without having any option to do anything about it.
(edited by Victuswolf.5286)
So you are basically saying that to get things done faster and more easily than intended you exploit the flaws and loopholes in balance, things that should have never been possible in the first place but ArenaNet completely overlooked, and now that they are making changes may or may not get rid of some of them, you have no intentions to adapt to the new system, or even give it a chance to see if you can work with it, without even seeing the full list of changes.
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub
For all you know all the ‘damage traits’ you are complaining about could have been rolled into the same line.
Well… how do you expect me to sympathize with that?
For one, try reading my initial post where I talk about anything but damage traits.
20 level 80s and counting.
After the AMA today we might have enough information to compare some of the old builds with the new ones, then we can see for real, with actual data, if variety and diversity will be increased or reduced.
As people mentioned before, the current amount of meta builds is rather low, despite the large variety of options. Let’s see if with the new system we will get more viable builds or less, I could care less about the overall amount of possible builds, viable / playable builds matter the most.
you will likely get the same or less. truth is most trait lines had at least 9 good traits in them already.
just a matter of what you were interested in doing.looking at their example, they will merge most traits together.
there simply is not enough variety with only 3 choices per line to make a noticeable impact on viability. many traits are linked to certain playstyles.
the thing that has a chance of increasing viability is decoupling stats from traits, but that did not require the other changes in order to work.
the other thing that may help, is making better traits, but since they are cutting total traits, that wont effect much since it will have to canabalize or become a part of some other build that already existed, and not be a real option.
but if i am wrong, i am wrong. time will soon tell us
Although metabattle is not the only place to get builds it’s a good way to count builds before and after the trait change. There are now 16 meta/great/good Dungeon builds on metabattle, will there be more or less after the trait revamp? If there are more, then although we got less traits to choose from, the trait change actually helped with variety. If there are less, then there was indeed a reduction in viable choices.
We will see how it goes, and today’s Ready Up might reveal some full builds too so we can do a more accurate comparison before and after.
Then add the fact certain stats such a +boon duration are not on armour but were tied to trait lines. How will Anet address that? or will they at all? Most likely they will expect us to eat the stat & trait loss without having any option to do anything about it.
The fact is we don’t know yet. Just because they haven’t revealed it doesn’t mean they decided to scrap it.
Although metabattle is not the only place to get builds it’s a good way to count builds before and after the trait change. There are now 16 meta/great/good Dungeon builds on metabattle, will there be more or less after the trait revamp? If there are more, then although we got less traits to choose from, the trait change actually helped with variety. If there are less, then there was indeed a reduction in viable choices.
Meta build before: get the maximum amount of optimal traits from 5 lines – and as little as possible of the useless stuff you’re forced to take in lower points.
Meta build soon: get the maximum amount of optimal traits from 3 lines (or 2 lines) – and as little as possible of the useless stuff you’re forced to take in lower and higher points.
Regardless, the non-meta builds will suffer way more. Like those designed for specific challenging encounters, for enjoyable PvE roaming, for map completion etc.
20 level 80s and counting.
Although metabattle is not the only place to get builds it’s a good way to count builds before and after the trait change. There are now 16 meta/great/good Dungeon builds on metabattle, will there be more or less after the trait revamp? If there are more, then although we got less traits to choose from, the trait change actually helped with variety. If there are less, then there was indeed a reduction in viable choices.
Meta build before: get the maximum amount of optimal traits from 5 lines – and as little as possible of the useless stuff you’re forced to take in lower points.
Meta build soon: get the maximum amount of optimal traits from 3 lines (or 2 lines) – and as little as possible of the useless stuff you’re forced to take in lower and higher points.
Regardless, the non-meta builds will suffer way more. Like those designed for specific challenging encounters, for enjoyable PvE roaming, for map completion etc.
Yet you don’t know that. I can already recreate several meta builds using only 3 trait lines (at max), keeping the same playstyle, same DPS for DPS builds and even adding some extra functionality to them. You might find those extras useless, but if the rest of the build functionality can mostly be preserved then I don’t see a problem with having them.
But of course using 3 trait lines doesn’t make much sense yet since we don’t know how other traits will change. IF they release all the trait info and allow us to beta test it before getting the change live, I’m sure many changes can happen (if needed) to “save” some builds.
(Veteran) Players have this idea that more options, in videogames, makes them intrinsically better. Well, that’s not exactly how it works. Games have proved once and once again that offering a massive amount of “customisation options” only leads to a graveyard/ pile of filler. It makes any game a lot less user-friendly, and it adds a lot of clutter, for no meaningful gain.
It’s not by chance that game design has been evolving out of this. It’s not because players are “stupid”. It’s because focusing on quality over quantity pays off.
A high customisation system that only allows for virtually 1-2 optimal builds gives the illusion of something that it is not, and ends up with a high barrier of entry for the sake of something that does not even happens (diversity).
A lesser customisation system that, in theory, can allow for as many virtually optimal builds, if not more thanks to easier balancing, only gets to gain by being naturally more elegant, user friendly and clearly focused.
Yes, if we were to strip all options from gaming, we would be left with interactive movies. But the opposing extreme does not leads to anywhere either. There must exist some sort of balance, between enough meaningful options to make players happy with customisation, while at the same time not overloading the game with those options so devs can have an easier time to maintain the quality of those options. It’s a win-win scenario if/ when done right.
And the new specialization system will still offer that balance. With 3 different traits per tier, and a selection of 3 tiers out of 6, players will still be able to adapt their characters to the style they most like. It won’t be a highly detailed level of customisation anymore, but the meaningful number of builds that will exist out of it will not be any less. Probably, we’ll get more optimal builds because trait stats are no longer an obstacle, trait replacement will no longer be so arbitrary, and the gap between better and worse traits will be a lot shortened.
On a final note, many of the examples the OP has given are flawed by themselves. One such example is the one given for the staff elementalist. The fact that the build itself is already based on “camping Fire attunement after the initial rotation” does not helps, but if we disregard that, the reason why a staff elementalist goes 6-2-2-2-2 is to collect as many damage modifiers as possible. There’s no diversity in here, just maximizing. With the new trait system, a staff elementalist will be able to, for example, get two damage modifiers from water magic spec alone.
(edited by DiogoSilva.7089)
(Veteran) Players have this idea that more options, in videogames, makes them intrinsically better. Well, that’s not exactly how it works. Games have proved once and once again that offering a massive amount of “customisation options” only leads to a graveyard/ pile of filler. It makes any game a lot less user-friendly, and it adds a lot of clutter, for no meaningful gain.
It’s not by chance that game design has been evolving out of this. It’s not because players are “stupid”. It’s because focusing on quality over quantity pays off.
A highly customisation system that only allows for 1-2 virtually optimal builds gives the illusion of something that is not, and has a high barrier of entry for the sake of something that does not happens (diversity).
A lesser customisation system that, in theory, can allow for as many virtually optiomal builds, if not more thanks to easier balancing, only gets to gain by being naturally more elegant, user friendly and clearly focused.
Yes, if we were to stirp all options from gaming, we would be left with interactive movies. But the opposing extreme does not leads to anywhere either. There must exist some sort of balance, between enough meaningful options to make players happy with customisation, while at the same time not overloading the game with those options so devs can have an easier time to maintain the quality of those options. It’s a win-win scenario if/ when done right.
And the new specialization system will still offer that balance. With 3 different traits per tier, and a selection of 3 tiers out of 6, players will still be able to adapt their characters to the style they most like. It won’t be a highly detailed level of customisation anymore, but the meaningful number of builds that will exist out of it will not be any less. Probably, we’ll get more optimal builds because trait stats are no longer an obstacle, trait replacement will no longer be so arbitrary, and the gap between better and worse traits will be a lot shortened.
On a final note, many of the examples the OP has given are flawed by themselves. One such example is the one given for the staff elementalist. The fact that the build itself is already based on “camping Fire attunement after the initial rotation” does not helps, but if we disregard that, the reason why a staff elementalist goes 6-2-2-2-2 is to collect as many damage modifiers as possible. There’s no diversity in here, just maximizing. With the new trait system, a staff elementalist will be able to, for example, get two damage modifiers from water magic spec alone.
I can say what you said much more forum friendly: “games are getting more stupid so lazy new players don’t have to learn them so we can sell more boxes; p.s. who cares about veterans, they’ve already paid”
see? I said the same without wall of text
I can say what you said much more forum friendly: “games are getting more stupid so lazy new players don’t have to learn them so we can sell more boxes; p.s. who cares about veterans, they’ve already paid”
see? I said the same without wall of text
And I can make your post even more forum friendly:
“There’s no such thing as lazy players”.
See? I said the same as you with even less words.
“There’s no such thing as lazy players”.
This is a lie because for example I am a player and I am very lazy. But I don’t deny other people right to not be as lazy as me so when something is taken away to cater lazy audience I am and always will be against it.
I can understand the OP’s (and many others’) concern regarding the trait changes. On some classes, it’s not an issue for me, for other classes it’s a concern.
For example, on my mesmer, when I’m going to be doing a lot of reflecting, it’s not uncommon for me to spec 6 points in Inspiration and take Glamour Mastery, Warden’s Feedback, and Temporal Enchanter. Which is an adept and two master traits. So being forced to use one and only one of each tier is a cause for concern.
However we know that some traits are getting merged. Other traits are getting dropped and having their functionality implemented directly into the game. The perfect example of this is the one they gave with Necro wells. Wells will now be ground target by default, because that trait no longer exists. I could see them doing something similar with Warden’s Feedback. Merge the cool down reduction with a different trait, and let the focus 4 and 5 reflect naturally by default. I could also see them taking Glamour Mastery and Temporal Enchanter and rolling it into a single trait. Which, depending on how they shuffle all that around, I could still end up with all the current build functionality that I use when reflecting.
Until we know for certain how things are actually changing, it might be a bit premature to start having fits. Be concerned; I’m definitely concerned. However, don’t overreact regarding it. Anet is more likely to listen if we present our concerns in a logical and rational way. They have stated that they are trying to preserve as many of the currently used builds as possible, so lets give them a chance to show us what they’ve come up with, and then we can offer our thoughts and suggestions on how we might like to see it tweaked (cause there’s still time, they’ve told us what we see today isn’t set in stone).
Don’t look at me like that. Whatever you’ve heard, it’s probably not true.
(Veteran) Players have this idea that more options, in videogames, makes them intrinsically better. Well, that’s not exactly how it works. Games have proved once and once again that offering a massive amount of “customisation options” only leads to a graveyard/ pile of filler. It makes any game a lot less user-friendly, and it adds a lot of clutter, for no meaningful gain.
It’s not by chance that game design has been evolving out of this. It’s not because players are “stupid”. It’s because focusing on quality over quantity pays off.
A highly customisation system that only allows for 1-2 virtually optimal builds gives the illusion of something that is not, and has a high barrier of entry for the sake of something that does not happens (diversity).
A lesser customisation system that, in theory, can allow for as many virtually optiomal builds, if not more thanks to easier balancing, only gets to gain by being naturally more elegant, user friendly and clearly focused.
Yes, if we were to stirp all options from gaming, we would be left with interactive movies. But the opposing extreme does not leads to anywhere either. There must exist some sort of balance, between enough meaningful options to make players happy with customisation, while at the same time not overloading the game with those options so devs can have an easier time to maintain the quality of those options. It’s a win-win scenario if/ when done right.
And the new specialization system will still offer that balance. With 3 different traits per tier, and a selection of 3 tiers out of 6, players will still be able to adapt their characters to the style they most like. It won’t be a highly detailed level of customisation anymore, but the meaningful number of builds that will exist out of it will not be any less. Probably, we’ll get more optimal builds because trait stats are no longer an obstacle, trait replacement will no longer be so arbitrary, and the gap between better and worse traits will be a lot shortened.
On a final note, many of the examples the OP has given are flawed by themselves. One such example is the one given for the staff elementalist. The fact that the build itself is already based on “camping Fire attunement after the initial rotation” does not helps, but if we disregard that, the reason why a staff elementalist goes 6-2-2-2-2 is to collect as many damage modifiers as possible. There’s no diversity in here, just maximizing. With the new trait system, a staff elementalist will be able to, for example, get two damage modifiers from water magic spec alone.
I can say what you said much more forum friendly: “games are getting more stupid so lazy new players don’t have to learn them so we can sell more boxes; p.s. who cares about veterans, they’ve already paid”
see? I said the same without wall of text
You just converted that omnipresent management/PR talk into what they actually think when making those dumbing down decisions. Thanks.
20 level 80s and counting.
I can say what you said much more forum friendly: “games are getting more stupid so lazy new players don’t have to learn them so we can sell more boxes; p.s. who cares about veterans, they’ve already paid”
see? I said the same without wall of text
And I can make your post even more forum friendly:
“There’s no such thing as lazy players”.See? I said the same as you with even less words.
More words coming, but also more precise:
Some people will complain about a game’s design without studying game design.
You hit the nail on the head, Diogo. Where other players kewkew about “dumbing down” and “removing options,” actual game designers are aiming for more elegant designs that give actual, useful choice instead of the illusion of choice.
What seems most ironic is that the people who want a thousand skills and traits, the illusion of choice, are the same ones who will follow metabuild guides limited to 3 or 4 optimizations, and then feel clever for doing so. Those same people will look at half of the traits and skills available and say “I never use those, ever. They suck. GAME NEEDS TO GIVE ME MORE SKILLS I WILL NEVER USE.”
Instead, the devs are looking at making each choice actually matter, much like Blizzard did with WoW. While it’s unfortunate that some of the non-6/6/2-6/4/4 builds aren’t going to be possible, it’s likely that the new traits will compress functionality into few, more potent options that might actually be desirable.
And people are mathing this out now. 196 thousand build combinations, before accounting for special class specs. Over 390 thousand including that. That is sufficient wiggle room, considering there will be maybe 50 meta builds that emerge.
Many alts; handle it!
“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632
“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632
The things I’m worried about are various utility traits that I take on several characters where I only put 2 points in for things like Warrior’s Sprint and Mug . Where I wouldn’t bother putting any more points in those lines for any of the other traits there even if I had the points.
The other thing I’m worried about are traits that I like to take multiple of from the same tier. In almost every build I use on my thief I take at least 2 of :
Shadow Protector
Shadow’s Embrace
Cloaked in Shadow
If it were possible, to put 8 points into Shadow Arts, I would probably do it to get all 3 of those plus Shadow’s Rejuvination . Heck, I think the fact that I generally want as many of those I can get is the reason I feel like I can’t play a venomshare build. Because if it were possible, and I had 18 points to cherry pick the traits I wanted, I’d probably end up going 6/0/12/0/0 so that I could get all four of:
Shadow Protector
Shadow’s Embrace
Cloaked in Shadow
Shadow’s Rejuvination
plus:
Venomous Aura
Leeching Venoms
Now that would be a support build.
But with these changes I’m going to be stuck with at most 1 of those first 3 I mentioned unless they combine or move some of them…
— Wow, this 6-2-2-2-2 staff ele build is great! So much power, but great utility and versatility! I love it!
Eeeehp! Say goodbye to being versatile. For one, the Vital Striking trait has been moved – sorry, merged! – from Adept to Master. And please remember you cannot trait into more than 3 lines anymore, yes. So if you want to get that damage trait, please fully take the healing line.
I think it short sighted to still view water as a healing line when stats are now separated from the trait lines. Choosing traits II, VI, and IX would all be damage boosters, combined with the right power/precision/ferocity boost gear would make water attunement now viable for dealing damage. Look at that…a new build option that wasn’t viable before the new system!
I simply don’t like that we can’t pick 2 Master’s or Adepts anymore. Though we’d have to wait and see on how they combine the traits, I am not too hopeful. In fact if this is as bad as I foresee and OP has predicted, it might actually push some players out of the game.
I know people always say that but this is a huge change to the way we play the game, and it will have huge consequences, whether overall positive or negative.
On the other hand, a spec like 6/6/0/0/2 will now be able to be 6/6/0/0/6 Which might be more powerful in the end, however the stat change is one I’m against.
Here is why: If gear gets boosted numbers then the 5% difference between Ascended and exotic will be even larger forcing you to play on less alts altogether if you want the optimum experience. It might not be the case but I am definitely concerned.
MORE BEARDS OR RIOT
I simply don’t like that we can’t pick 2 Master’s or Adepts anymore. Though we’d have to wait and see on how they combine the traits, I am not too hopeful. In fact if this is as bad as I foresee and OP has predicted, it might actually push some players out of the game.
I made a post here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/Water-Magic-trait-changes/first#post4999771 about the trait changes in the Water Magic trait line. It’s interesting to note that with the new system there appears to be far less competition (if any at all) for traits for the same playstyle on the same trait tier. If you want damage, you can get an adept, master and gm trait for damage, if you want survivability, there are traits for it, if you want party healing support, there is a different choice.
It’s too early to know for sure and we obviously don’t have enough information yet, however I believe they will address the issue of adept traits in master slots, by making the 3 traits available on each tier not competing with others for the same playstyle / role. For example, with the old system we have 2 traits in Water Adept that increase DPS and compete with each other, however with the new system there is no competition.
There is no denying that certain options will no longer be available once the new system rolls out and that really sucks for people who have grown to love playing their characters a certain way. However new options will also be available as a result of these changes and you can’t say you won’t enjoy playing those build options as much or maybe even more until you understand the full extent of the trait changes.
In the end there will be some people burned by this, but I don’t think that it will be a grand and “game-ending” as some people are trying to make it out to be.
The new system is MUCH different from the current system and we haven’t gotten a chance to feel it out and see how it will end up.
All the OP’s examples are centered around the way the current system and traits work, but the new systems function and trait details are getting totally overhauled.
You can’t make a valid arguement against apples by complaining about oranges.