Guild Wars 2

DarcShriek.5829:

Totally uninterested in player housing. I am interested in new lands to conquer. I am not interested in progression that means I need silk curtains rather than linen curtains. I am here to save the world. If I want to decorate a home, I’ll play the sims. It does a much better job of home creation than GW2 ever could.

I doubt that player housing in GW2 would mainly be about choosing your curtains. Chris already mentioned tasks, events and challenges coming out of this – some content where other players are involved, if I heard him right.

How about Secret tome’s containing secret skills that are slightly above avg in PvE. So you need to find them from specail monsters to earn them and require a few tasks to thoroughly learn and unlock a new skill? that way it feels like we are learning a new skill that we earned.

the more I think of it, the more I doubt that new skills will ever be tied to lore. We already got new skills, just use up 25 skill points from the 100+ you’ve gathered already and that’s it.

They haven’t done it for these few, why should they do it for a larger number?

At release I thought it would be a splendid idea to unlock skillpoints with each levelup, even after lv.80 – but now I think it’s too easy to amass those because there is no real sink of them. Yes, you might need them for prestige items like Legendaries, but a lot of players don’t enjoy this journey because they see little progress + you might need a lot of money which you can’t simply get from playing the game only when enjoying certain playstyles.

An example would be WvW: I can’t say that I’m making money when playing WvW. I’m just collecting mats while I have no idea for what I should use them now since there might be a use of it later. Jumping puzzles don’t feel very rewarding for me either, nor does exploring zones. Both of these activities I love most though. I could run with one of the champion trains, but I’ve tried it and it just feels like boring zergfest to me. Zergs in WvW feel different because you have equal opponents often enough. But hitting on a champ who can’t do anything (damage… not really) is bland, and being proud of having these champion trains in your game… I don’t get it.

What I’m trying to say: I don’t feel that there is horizontal progression in some core aspects of the game yet. I don’t feel that I have accomplished anything when getting gold for an event. The season 1 reward in WvW was something I was progressing, but the reward was abyssimal and I doubt I’d do anything to complete it, ever again.

Skillpoints are too generic imho. No distinction between automatic ones via level up or beaten “challenges” (fast food challenges).

Chrispy.5641:

Everoyne Talking about Sub Classes (from the last 4 pages or so)

…snip…. (Unless you want me to get the Sherpas….)

As far as skill progression goes, Sub Classes are the Wrong Answer. What should be done (and is currently done) is that all skills in any given profession are made available to everyone in the profession (if they unlocked it, if not, then too bad pal!). Doing something like taking on a specialization should not offer you certain skills while locking you out of others. (while the Trait system does favor one skill’s effectiveness over another when you go down that line, it doesn’t outright lock you out of using any skill you darn well want to)

Nope, they are the perfect answer. Making all skilsl avaiable for all classes is the absolute wrong answer. Crap like that would totally trivialize the whole Skill System and Class System of this game for just only the point, that it would make the game more alt friendly. But thats the wrong way to destroy 2 gameplay systems, just so that you don’t have to think about it anymore, how many characters you have and what class they are.

Sub Classes would still have access to all of the skills and traits of the main profession, it isn’t so that only because you specialized yourself into something, that you out of a sudden forget all the basic knowledges of your class that you’ve already learned.
You can use racial skills also only, when you play the correct race.
So whats the stupid problem now with sub class skills, that you can use now only, when you play the correct sub class?

You can use sword skills also only, when you have a sword equipped. Just normal logic.
You can’t use sword skills, while you have an Axe equipped, regardless of how darn well you want to use them, it wouldn#t just make any sense if you could do it.

Sub Classes work like a multifunctional Unlock System, not only just for Skills due to giving new Weapons to your chosen Sub Class. ANet can use them for many different things to unlock step by step new class features that could allow players to customize their character and individualize them to your personal likings plus giving players the right feeling of character progression, visually as like mechanically, so that you can see and recognize in regard of the gameplay of your character, that you are with your Sub Class an more advanced profession over what you were just before.
It allows them to let our characters progress horizontally as like vertically.

I want to ask you directly:
What is your problem with there being Sub Class Skills, that you can use only, when you have chosen the correspondign Sub Class for it or with Armor Sets, that you can wear only, when you use the fitting Sub Class?
While you think about your answer, I want you, that you think also on the Racial Skills and Cultural Armors which actually work the same.

Orpheal.8263:

You can use racial skills also only, when you play the correct race.
So whats the stupid problem now with sub class skills, that you can use now only, when you play the correct sub class?

That’s the point: Who uses racial skills? They are designed to be weaker than the other skills because Anet doesn’t want to make any race required to be the best in what you do.

The same could be applied to subclasses. If subclass xy would be the best in doing dps, then it would feel as a requirement to choose this profession. Now because this would be wrong – what would we get? Generic skills like racial skills, which feel redundant.

I personally think racial skills are a failed design because no one want’s to / can use them in a serious build.

GW1 was a trinity type combat system. However, there were different ways to go about tanking, healing and dps. The secondary class of GW1 made it feasible that the specific role was never tied to one class. It allowed classes to perform in multiple roles. The game even expanded the three classic archtypes into more archtype which in combination were able to perform meta level gameplay. (Protter, Minion Swarmer, Shouter, Bonder, etc.)

Certainly, amongst the hardest of the hardcore, all that mattered was that one dungeon with that one class running that one task using that one build.

But beyond that, among the more mainstream guilds consisting of friends, the secondary class system was quite refreshing in how it allowed you to approach group play. GW2 is missing a lot of that. But not because of missing secondary classes, but mainly because of missing distinctive roles in group play. Each player has to provide for himself. You do not concentrate on providing either defensive or offensive shenanigans for the group, you need to be a complete package. The hammer protection spam guardian with all the reflections being somewhat of the exception to this rule, which is why people want him. Now imagine this situation in a GW1 context. You would not have to need to wait for the guardian to come and spam, any other class could go secondary guardian, pick up the hammer and provide that role.

This is what mainstream group play in GW1 was all about as opposed to group play in GW2.

That whole armor debate surrounding sub-classes, take it and toss it out the window.

A suggestion to fix racial skills (make them viable) and tie it to horizontal progression:

What if racial skills are for everyone, but can only be learned from a representative of that race? Now it would be a challenge to learn these (the specific race has the racials unlocked from the start) and you would have to use that skill in a task in order to unlock it…

…but finally the skills could become as powerful as the other utility skills + players had a huge variety of new skills to play with. It takes a bit of time to unlock all these skills, but they will be worth it. It goes without say that the skills need a serious redesign to be viable.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Orpheal.8263:

You can use racial skills also only, when you play the correct race.
So whats the stupid problem now with sub class skills, that you can use now only, when you play the correct sub class?

That’s the point: Who uses racial skills? They are designed to be weaker than the other skills because Anet doesn’t want to make any race required to be the best in what you do.

The same could be applied to subclasses. If subclass xy would be the best in doing dps, then it would feel as a requirement to choose this profession. Now because this would be wrong – what would we get? Generic skills like racial skills, which feel redundant.

I personally think racial skills are a failed design because no one want’s to / can use them in a serious build.

Heh, I used to use the Charr landmine in my Immobilize Warrior build, before Leg Specialist got a ICD. Although I didn’t pick Charr for that reason.

Orpheal.8263:

I want to ask you directly:

What is your problem with there being Sub Class Skills, that you can use only when you have chosen the corresponding Sub Class for it or with Armor Sets, that you can wear only, when you use the fitting Sub Class?

Personally, the issue I have with sub-classes is that it it limits choice even further.

We’re already limited by:

• Prechosen weapon skills and skill slots
• Professions
• Traits

Now, I’m not saying limitations are a bad thing entirely. However, when they force you into a particular set to build your character a particular way, then it is. What if I feel a skill from subclass A would go well with my build, but I’m subclass B? The only way to do that is lock viable skills with the subclasses, and that just takes away all of the depth of the system.

This is the main issue I have with weapon skills. The lack of choice. I like the aesthetics of the swords. However, since they’re a condition damage weapon, I can’t use them in a viable direct damage build. What if I could choose to swap the bleed out for, say, a bit of extra damage against Vulnerable foes?

You’re also talking about tying cosmetics to sub-classes, which, IMO, is kind of dumb in a game where you have the freedom to build your own look.

The problem lies not in a class being best in something .. the problem with this game lies at the moment, that DPS is everything and all other builds are just useless.

If the game would support properly all kinds of build types, damage, support, as like control, then there would be no problem with it of a clas beign best in one of those 3 aras, because of the other 2 areas also being good enough, to be successful with them in the game, just with other styles of gameplay.

So what ANet has to fix is making Support and Control equal to Damage, then there is no problem when say for example a Rogue is superior for Control, when you would be same as good as an Saboteur with your Support or as an Infiltrator for Damage.

Its all also just a matter of naturally also too the Skill Design and what Skills enable to player to do in the game. If the Skill Design of a Skill for A just feels more useful overall in the game, than Skill B, its clear that people will think, that A is better than B.

But if all the skills are balance wise designed to be same as useful, then everything is just a matter of taste, what kind of gameplay type you prefer for your character/class, if you like more to play your Class focused on Damage, Control or Support with erach class performing in these 3 areas differently.

We already have this drive for just DPS only, without Sub Classes, because if you just seek for massive DPS, you just run a Team Build like 4 Warriors + 1 Mesmer, then you have the most highest Team DPS.

Sub Classes however could be used to balance this out. They are the needed layer that could be put on top of the existign classes to balance out all the strneths and weaknesses of the current game design, so that if you seek for perfect DPS, your choice of team build would be not only just 4 Warriors + Mesmer, but you could have many different team build combinations then, whose synegies would be equal to that of the current 4W+ 1M- Meta Group Build for perfect DPS.

@Dai: Tieing Cosmetics to Sub Classes isn#t dumb, its quite in fact very smart, and clever, because its the real only way how you could guarantee for this game, that players receive more ways how you can look different, than tons of other players.
Thats also the reason, why we have cultural armors, because that way you know, there are armor,s that give you a look, that only characters of the same race can wear.
So this mechanic reduces the possibility to ever met on an exact clone of you by 80%, because the other 20% o chance that you can meet a clone character of you in the game ever would happen only, if that clone character is of the same race, as your character.

Limitations are in that aspect very important, because they are the only way to guarantee that you can have unique and individual characters. Any other opinion just trivializes the sense of there beign any kind of different options in the game at all and why we have a mechanic in the game, liek Weapon Skills

If we could just swap Sub Class Skill A out for Sub Class Skill B, while being Sub Class A, then it would make no sense at all to have Sub Classes at all that allow us to customize our characters ,more and become more unique and individual over other players, that have made for their characters other different decisions.

However, as I have said already multiple times, those decisions should be permanent.
There should be an option, to change your Sub Class, just like players can change also their Crafting Job without losign any progression in your Sub Classes.

Means, if you think, you need to havea Skill from Sub Class B to make for the situation your build better, than what you could have with Skilsl from Sub Class A, nobody will stop you to go to one of those new Master NPC’s of the fitting Sub Class to let you change for a small fee to the other Sub Class to get your SKill that you need for your Build.
But there should not be the option to have all the Skilsl from all Sub Classes at the same time We also can’t be all crafting professions at the same tinme, we have to specialize us onto maximum 2 and if we need for the moment an other craftign job, we either change to an other character, who is specialized in then eeded craftign job, or we change with our current character one of its crafting jobs out for that one, that we need in the moment by talking with the fitting NPC’s.

StriderShinryu.6923:

The question about a housing system should really be, given the limitations that it is absolutely going to have, is it still worth pursuing above other horizontal progression options?

Or, in other words, is the disappointment you’re likely to have with the housing system we do get going to be something you’re going to be okay with accepting knowing that some other item may have been put in place instead?

Well you are probably right in this.

That’s why I try to advocate a housing system involving sandbox content where you, as the player, get the tools to develop your own content. I know it might be hard to get it right, but if they made new instanced maps that revolved about sandbox elements, it isn’t necessarily impossible.

ArenaNet needs to think toward the future. A lot of games are straying from themepark models, because the content runs out at one point or another. Fractals are in theory a good example of a sandbox. The player creates his own difficulties by going higher levels and adding in a random damage factor: agony.

Sure, you don’t have to do fractals, but if you don’t have anything else for you to do… fractals will always offer you a new challenge.

My hope is that ArenaNet is able to do something similar with housing, letting the players serve their own entertainment. We can’t expect them to create content fast enough to keep us busy. We can expect them to create base content with which we can entertain ourselves.

Is housing worth it without sandbox elements? Probably not.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Orpheal.8263:

You can use racial skills also only, when you play the correct race.
So whats the stupid problem now with sub class skills, that you can use now only, when you play the correct sub class?

That’s the point: Who uses racial skills? They are designed to be weaker than the other skills because Anet doesn’t want to make any race required to be the best in what you do.

The same could be applied to subclasses. If subclass xy would be the best in doing dps, then it would feel as a requirement to choose this profession. Now because this would be wrong – what would we get? Generic skills like racial skills, which feel redundant.

I personally think racial skills are a failed design because no one want’s to / can use them in a serious build.

I actually use Racial skills on all my character except for my Engi- who uses supply drop- I am also I huge fan of Cultural Armour as well as Order Armour.
But then most of my Characters are Sylvari’s and the Take Root is an awesome skill.

So I totally see subclass skills a s working like racial skills because they add flavour- same for subclass armour.

Orpheal.8263:

The problem lies not in a class being best in something .. the problem with this game lies at the moment, that DPS is everything and all other builds are just useless.

This says everything. Before thinking of introducing new skills, new class variety etc, you have to see whether it’s even worth doing all that in a system where DPS = only way.

Orpheal.8263:

What is your problem with there being Sub Class Skills, that you can use only, when you have chosen the corresponding Sub Class for it or with Armor Sets, that you can wear only, when you use the fitting Sub Class?
While you think about your answer, I want you, that you think also on the Racial Skills and Cultural Armors which actually work the same.

On a personal level, because it
1. Won’t be optional I don’t know about you but I expect to have/will get every skill on my characters unlocked.
2. Would make a major problem worse, classes are no where near balanced in any aspect and Warriors/Thieves have a clear advantage at the moment, adding more skill subsets before fixing the base problem will complicate things.
3. I don’t think it’s horizontal progression, it’s class diversity which is a thing but a separate thing to horizontal progression, Hp changes nothing in combat it’s about goals and challenges to make you feel like you’ve accomplished stuff and stand out from the crowd.
4. Gives very little on the time to effort ratio, I spend an hour unlocking all the stuff for my subclass and I’m done? that was not a lot of playtime gained or new experiences. If you pad it out so you say have to re-level to 80 or something it still doesn’t add because you are just repeating the same content.

Counter question, How does your idea add playtime?, what new goals and objectives does it give a player to pursue in the short,medium and long term? What is my reward, if subclasses are added they will be a requirement because you can be sure that one will do dungeons better, one will pvp better and one will be more useful in Wvw?

A compromise you might consider would be a prestige version of each class it would allow you to differentiate which I think is your objective?, similar to the royal alcehmists from mabinogi (http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Royal_Alchemist).

The 100 best (by certain criteria) alchemists each week (could be a permanent thing in gw2) get a special pose (arms crossed when idle as opposed to hands down) special uniform (prestiege armor for gw) and title. In addition they were given the ability to enter solo missions with another player to help them (a nice and unique feature but not really useful in gw). They also had access to special missions that others did not.

It would need to be tweaked to suit guildwars but could work? It would need to be a series of solo challenges, and the difficulty would need to be quite high to make sure that only a few could complete it.

I haven’t really read this thread, only skimmed few pages. I have few things that may or may not be related to anything…

1. I’d love love love player housing, but I don’t currently have any thoughts about it. But since it seems to be talked about a bit, I’ll start waiting for it. :P

2. Unlock quests bother me to no end. I’m thinking back to the structure of Final Fantasy XIV as it was at lauch and as it is now: Even game mechanics apparently need to be unlocked with some errands ran around. I can’t stand it. I’m only throwing this here since I see discussion about questlines or similar for housing and other things…
I guess this goes for things like faction ranks and such.

3. Underflow servers… (I saw this few pages back) I’d rather be on my server.
I don’t care about events. I enjoy peace and most definetely don’t need to see a lot of people around, in fact I like to stay away from hordes of people and it is not only because of my poor slideshow machine that otherwise does pretty well. I don’t like being demanded things and for some reason I have this idea that people do that.
If that kind of system gets implemented don’t force us on them.

4. Tiered utility skill have always bothered me, and I wish so much that the tiers would not exist and that I could get refund of unwanted utilities I have had to get to reach the next tier.
(I have a lot of characters of my most favorite few classes)

Orpheal.8263:

The problem lies not in a class being best in something .. the problem with this game lies at the moment, that DPS is everything and all other builds are just useless.

If the game would support properly all kinds of build types, damage, support, as like control, then there would be no problem with it of a clas beign best in one of those 3 aras, because of the other 2 areas also being good enough, to be successful with them in the game, just with other styles of gameplay..

This is a very good point. Personally, I really like the idea of sub classes or class specialization. The only reason I can see why these ideas may not work right now is also because there is one build that is so far and away the best that it wouldn’t matter. The system would be broken not because it’s a bad idea, but because the game balance as it exists now doesn’t really support it.

Sirendor.1394:

StriderShinryu.6923:

The question about a housing system should really be, given the limitations that it is absolutely going to have, is it still worth pursuing above other horizontal progression options?

Or, in other words, is the disappointment you’re likely to have with the housing system we do get going to be something you’re going to be okay with accepting knowing that some other item may have been put in place instead?

Well you are probably right in this.

That’s why I try to advocate a housing system involving sandbox content where you, as the player, get the tools to develop your own content. I know it might be hard to get it right, but if they made new instanced maps that revolved about sandbox elements, it isn’t necessarily impossible.

ArenaNet needs to think toward the future. A lot of games are straying from themepark models, because the content runs out at one point or another. Fractals are in theory a good example of a sandbox. The player creates his own difficulties by going higher levels and adding in a random damage factor: agony.

Sure, you don’t have to do fractals, but if you don’t have anything else for you to do… fractals will always offer you a new challenge.

My hope is that ArenaNet is able to do something similar with housing, letting the players serve their own entertainment. We can’t expect them to create content fast enough to keep us busy. We can expect them to create base content with which we can entertain ourselves.

Is housing worth it without sandbox elements? Probably not.

Exactly. If there could be a total sandbox system, it could be great. It could be something that would actually be it’s own form of content as opposed to just being a place to show visual versions of your achievements. The problem is, based on what we have seen of GW2 so far, I surmise that this just isn’t possible.

I don’t think it’s an issue of “well, it would just take a lot of work” or “the devs could do it if they really wanted to.” I’m guessing a proper sandbox system technically can’t work within the GW2 engine and, regardless of how much the devs would like to see it happen, they aren’t going to rewrite the GW2 engine from scratch just to allow it.

Orpheal.8263:

@Dai: Tieing Cosmetics to Sub Classes isn#t dumb, its quite in fact very smart, and clever, because its the real only way how you could guarantee for this game, that players receive more ways how you can look different, than tons of other players.

Quite the opposite. Limiting the choices never results in increased diversity. The only way for players to receive more options to look different is to make much more options available to every player. Otherwise, hey, there are specific cosmetics tied to Assassins! Great! Now every Assassin will look exactly the same…

Instead of making some class-specific cosmetics, the better option would be to go the other way – allow cosmetic transmutations across armor types (light, medium, heavy).

Orpheal.8263:

@Dai: Tieing Cosmetics to Sub Classes isn#t dumb, its quite in fact very smart, and clever, because its the real only way how you could guarantee for this game, that players receive more ways how you can look different, than tons of other players.

How does restricting what people can wear by subclass give more ways for people to look different?

Forgive me for not seeing the logic in what you’re saying.

I picked new skills, housing and faction-related content initially.

The most important one to me is Housing. I can live with the bad and boring combat system if the grinding I do is for a reason, that reason being the development of my house.

What I would really like to see is player-run towns, with town-based progression and challenges that affect the whole community. Let me explain:

Towns and Housing Overview

The town is a group of players. This can either be defined as any group of players that want to live together in a specific town, or all the players of a single guild having a town, or an alliance of guilds controlling a town. While the whole town thing may or may not be instanced, the houses should never be: The outside location of a house should represent ONE actual player’s home and plots in a town should be limited (but the amount of towns themselves do not have to be). Towns and their surrounding land should be at least half the size of a current game map, as there will be plenty of things to do OUTSIDE the gates as well.

Houses should be customizable to a certain degree (maybe put together with modular blocks or something) and should be decorable with furniture items. Furniture can be crafted, earned in events and from achievements, bought with tokens, bought in cash shop etc. Minipets can be assigned to roam inside the house or in the yard.

I like the idea of assigning rooms in the house to your various characters.

Town Challenges

Towns should ‘grow’ (maybe not in actual size, but in options available to them) based on the amount of active players in them and the ‘net worth’ of player houses that have been constructed (calculated from house material, house size and furniture inside). Once a certain growth level has been reached, challenges appear, that require the citizens to rally. Challenges may be:

• Dynamic events start spawning on the town map: Sieges, caravans that require escorts, etc.
• Dungeon instance entrances appearing on the town map: Cultist lair, Destroyer cave, etc. These dungeons can be completed a finite amount of times by their citizens, then a boss spawns on the town map for all to kill and the dungeon entrance collapses.
• Gathering event: A magistrate from the queen or whoever the city owns fealty to requires X amount of resource Y, which can either be a base product or a bulk order for a particular crafted good (hint hint make crafting profitable). Citizens should rally to gather this stuff.

Successfully completing these dynamic events should reward the players based on their contribution. Failure to complete the events in time should have a drawback in the resource nodes available on the town map (Farm could burn down, mine could collapse, etc) or their quality or their output.

Special Town Structures

While the houses belong to individual players, towns that have overcome challenges should be able to construct special structures inside or around the town. Examples of such special buildings are:

• Guild Halls!
• Mayor’s residence
• Structure spawning resource nodes: Farms, mines, lumber camps
• Crafting stations: Smiths, weavers, etc
• Shops (general goods vendors, house component vendors, furniture vendors)
• Bank and trading post structure

As far as as Horizontal progression goes I find that when playing through the game it is the Personal Story that leaves me feeling the least satisfied. When I first began playing I appreciated the diversity in the first few teirs of personal story, but the further up in level you get the less diverse and unique the story becomes. It eventually reaches a point where the character creation decisions and even the choice of Order makes no real difference to how the story plays out. It has made it so that completing the personal story over and over beyond the initial racial story is unsatisfying and I feel no desire to do so.

New rewards for later tiers of personal story would go a long way towards fixing this. I was also disappointed that when you earn a new “Rank” within one of the orders in Personal Story, or when you successfully help Trahearne cleanse Orr or even when you are named a commander of the pact you do not earn matching character titles for completion of these milestones. I would love to see a “Hero of Shaemoore” base title, or a “Lightbringer” title etc. Title farming was one of the things I enjoyed doing in the original Guild Wars and I found the lack of variety of titles in GW2 to be disappointing at best. To me, at least, adding personal story based titles would give me more incentive to complete the story more than once. What I would REALLY love to see is more story diversity added to later tiers of the story itself.

Just another opinion, sorry if these all have been discussed

I would love to see some more interaction options between characters, as part of the horizontal progression. Like unlockable emotes, dancing moves, etc. for karmas/skill points/whatever.

Also relationships between characters would be a nice addition, like marriage, friendship or family. It would be even more fun to get some boons while in party with your relatives, like crafting/luck/gold whatever bonus. (Could be a progression too there, the more you play in party with the other, the better will be the bonus you get)

Also in the intro of the game you hear… you’ll make an impact on the world. I’d love to see our special home instance to evolve as my character do. Like the npc cheering when I enter, or they get me a statue after participating successfully in some dragon killing or whatever would be fun. I’m a hero, am I not? I want to feel like one

I agree with most of that, Mirelitkitten (is kitten actually part of the name? D’aww). But extra bonuses for forming relationships turns that into a vertical power up, so any such thing should remain cosmetic rather than game mechanic advantages.

That’s one of the problems I’ve had with Orpheal’s beloved subclass system. More than once, Orpheal, you’ve commented that more power could come with adding subclasses. Boom, you’re talking vertical game revamps. So while it’s certainly worth discussing, I’m not sure it fits in this particular CDI.

Vis a vis housing, same issue with those asking for game bonuses from building up the house. In every MMO I’ve been iffy about turning a house into a convenience center for banking and such. Here that in particular might not be such an issue given how easy it is to get to banking and crafting throughout the world. But I want a residence to feel like a residence. I saw the video of WoW’s new “housing.” Excuse me? That looks like a military fortress with no choice of architectural style or furniture customization, holding must-have services to power you up in other parts of the game. No thanks!

Horizons had open world housing (to which I remain adamantly opposed), so adding services made sense. You could set permissions building by building as to how large a set of the population could use things or rearrange things. Personal > Friends > Guild > Everyone, as I recall.

Given GW2’s structure, I’d ask more micro control of permissions. You could pick “Friends,” or name individuals by character/account to get specific permission. After all, a Friends list here can include “that random person I offered JP help to from the forums.” That doesn’t mean I want that person able to carry away my fancy Canthan rug.

Donari.5237:

I agree with most of that, Mirelitkitten (is kitten actually part of the name? D’aww). But extra bonuses for forming relationships turns that into a vertical power up, so any such thing should remain cosmetic rather than game mechanic advantages.

That’s one of the problems I’ve had with Orpheal’s beloved subclass system. More than once, Orpheal, you’ve commented that more power could come with adding subclasses. Boom, you’re talking vertical game revamps. So while it’s certainly worth discussing, I’m not sure it fits in this particular CDI.

Vis a vis housing, same issue with those asking for game bonuses from building up the house. In every MMO I’ve been iffy about turning a house into a convenience center for banking and such. Here that in particular might not be such an issue given how easy it is to get to banking and crafting throughout the world. But I want a residence to feel like a residence. I saw the video of WoW’s new “housing.” Excuse me? That looks like a military fortress with no choice of architectural style or furniture customization, holding must-have services to power you up in other parts of the game. No thanks!

Horizons had open world housing (to which I remain adamantly opposed), so adding services made sense. You could set permissions building by building as to how large a set of the population could use things or rearrange things. Personal > Friends > Guild > Everyone, as I recall.

Given GW2’s structure, I’d ask more micro control of permissions. You could pick “Friends,” or name individuals by character/account to get specific permission. After all, a Friends list here can include “that random person I offered JP help to from the forums.” That doesn’t mean I want that person able to carry away my fancy Canthan rug.

There’s nothing wrong with housing having benefits and unique gains as long as they aren’t combat/vertical so no +50 power bonus’s etc. but having a farm with a few nodes, a unique home related armor/weapon/mini + the convenience of banking/crafting doesn’t really present a problem more a reward for effort invested.

I’m looking for the video you talk about but the only one I can find is 30 mins long so will edit once I’ve watched it all.

Conski Deshan, I concede the point to you. I think I was unclear or even rambling a bit, conflating various housing posts including those who want bonuses from it (usually the same people want competition for real estate).

I would want the conveniences you mention to be part of the home’s landscape, though. Not some creepy person standing in the living room, or random nodes in bizarre locations like the skill point in the norn home instance. Make a garden look like a garden, with harvestable spots. Have a personal banker sitting behind a desk in a side office. Let the home’s kitchen be a chef station but look like a furnished kitchen, not a stand alone oven surrounded by bare tile. Go to a wardrobe to open it up to pull out skins, and have that wardrobe vary in design, preferably crafted by players.

Not that I want to have to always go to a spot to get at my skins, the skins wardrobe QoL in this game means instant access to all learned skins wherever one is in the world. That was just an example of blending services into the surroundings.

I have been reading many of the posts about housing and would like to throw out a different idea that might spark some more ideas about what housing could be like in GW2. My idea includes: Housing + PVE + Factions + WvW elements. It also has many elements that would help build a strong community I envision player housing being more than just somewhere you put your stuff, it should include the main mechanics of the game and feel like a community where you are fighting to keep what is yours, while also gaining rewards to make the experience more epic. Since this idea is very large scale it probably cannot be implemented, but like I said the main reason for this post is to spark more ideas.

Districts
There will be 10 housing districts total
5 will be for Faction A, 5 will be for Faction B
There will be 2 Districts (one for each faction) per each race homeland
This will give players the option of what environment they would like to live in
Each District has 5 Sectors or neighborhoods
Possible player District Leaders??

Sectors
Houses
Town Squares – merchants, crafting, banking, etc
Supply Camps – holds the supply, 1 in each sector and 1 in the town square
Tower / Walls – to protect against PVE mobs, have to be built with supply
NPCs (guards, mercenaries, etc)
Possible Sector Commanders??

Houses
Customizable – in size, color, furniture, garden, etc

Inside will have similar features to the Hall of Monuments in GW1
display weapons, armor, mini-pets, titles, achievements, etc

Nodes (plants, trees, ore), usable once every ___hrs
will cost gold + laurels to obtain certain higher types of nodes

Supply
6 supply camps per district

Costs certain tokens / currency that players give to the supply NPC at each camp to get a certain amount of supply

Tokens can be obtained in a variety of ways including: defending your sector/ district, other districts / sectors that are apart of your faction, renown hearts / dynamic events located in your districts homeland

Gain more tokens by completing events that have not been completed recently or helping defend districts / sectors that are not your own

All players in a certain sector share all the supply in the camp, player will have to manage how they will spend their supply (houses, defense, merchants, etc)

Each sector has the ability to move some of their supply to the town square’s supply camp where they can share it with the other sectors in their districts. **Will be a great way to help build a great community base, since everyone will be working towards rewards they share as either a district or a faction

Factions
Players will be able to choose what faction they want to represent (character or account based???)
Each faction will have different types of mobs fighting for them
Players will obtain rewards based on their success as a district and as a faction as a whole
Each faction will have 5 districts that are interrelated by a reward system
Your individual district will be able to help other districts defend, build, resupply

Rewards
Defensive: increase build rate, different upgrades to walls and towers, siege similar to the WvW system. Rewards gained per district

Offensive: increase the level / quantity of mobs attacking the other factions districts, how often mobs attack others, mobs with siege, veteran and champ mobs, dragons?? Rewards gained per District

Faction rewards: increase xp, karma, gold by 1% permanently each week, decrease crafting mat costs, token drop rate, size of houses / town halls, etc

Rewards will be granted at the end of a certain period of time to the Faction who has the least amount of damage done to their districts. Could be a point system??

Rewards for districts (defensive and offensive) will be gained by completing certain achievements or goals.
Example: 90% of houses have no damage done to them during a 24hr. period, districts will have a 1% decrease in build cost per structure (Max of 10%??). If goal is not reached then district loses 1% buff or may have a 1% increase in costs.

PVE
Mobs from each faction attack different districts, usually focusing on one particular sector, this will be random. A message similar to the Scarlett one will be displayed on the players screen informing them of an attack.

Mobs can destroy all buildings including: houses, town squares, walls/towers, etc

**Don’t worry they stuff in your house will not be destroyed, you will just not be able to access it until you rebuild it with supply

Mobs don’t come in endless wave after wave, there is either a certain amount you have to defeat or a time limit before the mobs leave

Buildings are damaged like in WvW, there is a health bar that can be replenished with supply

Here’s my personal top 3 :
1 – Wardrobe system : at least a PvE locker like the PvP one where we could store weapons, armours, skins AND town clothes/costumes. I’d be more willing to pay for gem store items if I have some place to store them and use them at will as often as I want instead of having to manage transmuting things and sometimes having to decide which skin to keep or trash away. (note that skins we get via achievement chests are great because they’re stored somewhere are re-usable — more should be like this) But to add to this it would be nice to be able to swap gear between 2-3 different outfits (outside of combat) at the click of a button (like we can swap weapons right now… but a whole set of armour and weapons instead). Also currently, I think that the selection of weapons is great. There are different tiers of weapons obtainable outside of crafting that have a varying cost attached to them. We have regular drops, rare drops (like named exotics), crafting tiers, precursors, weapons crafted in the Mystic Forge. The variety is great overall. However, the diversity isn’t up par yet with the armour sets. We have only three options outside of crafting (if I’m not mistaken) : named exotic set, temple karma set and mid-level karma set. I’m not taking into account the gem store sets because they can be bought with money. In other words, there’s not a great ladder of armour diversity. The feeling of getting a prestigious armour set is missing from the game.
Look at GW1 armour tiers for reference of what I’m talking about. (Normal armour -> low cost elite -> elite -> higher cost elite like obsidian)

2 – More skills; better elite skills; better skill acquisition system (maybe only for elite). Elite skills are really lack luster. You could put together a system where we have to work for our elite skills with quests/events/dungeons/bosses just like in GW1. That was great fun. Collecting skills by doing epic quests is way more interesting than collecting skills by acquiring skill points. The new healing skills you put in the game at 25 SP… they cost so much vs the other regular skills that unless I really need them I won’t buy them. And just paying 25 SP (or going out to grind 25 SP) isn’t what I would call fun horizontal progression. On top of new skills and skill acquisition, please add skill templates that we could swap out like in GW1. Also, since we’re talking about new skills… this also means new weapon types… since some skills are tied to weapons. Or maybe 2-3 different skill sets per weapon type?

3 – Giving importance to factions. First, guild halls/home improvement so that our home become useful. It’s a bit tied up with the personal story, so I guess maybe some personal story progress would be required for home progress as well, unless they’re untied eventually. I’d rather have a customisable guild hall (with vendors and everything and a “go to guild hall button” like GW1) before home improvement though. Guild halls unlocks could be tied to factions (per example Order of Whispers guild manager starts an event or instance which upon completion unlocks a purchasable guild hall with the faction’s look — make them possible to do for small guilds as well please… that means 5-man or less — so scalable). On top of that, daily tasks could be converted to daily faction tasks. Each faction have a daily event that you can start by talking to a faction representative in various locations. That said event could be rotated daily. More events could be added to the rotation as time goes on. Add to this achievement tracks for each faction with titles (like GW1) and you have quite a big new daily/faction/achievement system that are more fun to do than regular daily tasks.

I’d like to add a 4th point which isn’t totally horizontal progression… but somewhat. Simply more story content.
I’ll “quote” GW1 again on this. Right now, if I want to go back with a level 1 character in GW1 and do everything I can, I have :
– Prophecies campaign
– Factions campaign
– Nightfall campaign
– Eye of the North campaign
– Hard mode campaigns of the above three
– Dungeons
– Elite dungeons (or stuff like UW/Urgoz etc.)
– Different PvP modes
– Character bound achievement progression (including map completion)
– Elite skills hunting

In GW2, if I want to do the same thing, here are my options :
– Personal story (amount to one GW1 campaign maybe)
– Map completion
– Dungeons
– Fractals
– WvW
– One PvP mode

What I mean is, there isn’t much content to do once you hit 80 with a new character unless you dive into Fractals or WvW. The main reason behind that is because the Living World story content is gone and can’t be replayed. So if I wish to come back to GW2 with a new character, I’m done in a couple of weeks where it would take months to complete the story in GW1. It’s horizontal progression in a sense… since I’m not gaining any stats but I’m progressing “horizontally” with the story itself. Anyway, I think it’s important to note that the replay value of the GW2 story is somewhat low (due to its length and quality) thus diminishing an important aspect of character progression.

Where GW2 misses the mark the most in my view is with its story (which is tied to character progression). Many elements of the personal story and the living story doesn’t make my character feel like he’s awesome… it just feels like he’s a pawn of every other NPC and that he could be replaced by any other next door Joe. Thus I don’t feel like I’m progressing anywhere with my character, story-wise. Sadly, the damage has already been done and it’s hard to build a tower upon a base that is already crooked.

StriderShinryu.6923:

Orpheal.8263:

The problem lies not in a class being best in something .. the problem with this game lies at the moment, that DPS is everything and all other builds are just useless.

If the game would support properly all kinds of build types, damage, support, as like control, then there would be no problem with it of a clas beign best in one of those 3 aras, because of the other 2 areas also being good enough, to be successful with them in the game, just with other styles of gameplay..

This is a very good point. Personally, I really like the idea of sub classes or class specialization. The only reason I can see why these ideas may not work right now is also because there is one build that is so far and away the best that it wouldn’t matter. The system would be broken not because it’s a bad idea, but because the game balance as it exists now doesn’t really support it.

These Two Posts are WAY too long to Quote for this Thread, but they were posts I made about two months ago on why DPS is better than everything else without exception :::

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Make-more-enemies-immune-to-crit-damage/2986332

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Make-more-enemies-immune-to-crit-damage/2989061

I did math comparing Power to Toughness in the Second post, but I did do the math for the first post as well, but never posted it (I will if you want to see it). (Also, you can never get to 3000 Toughness in this game, but it is easy to get 3,000 Power.)

The game does not support other build combinations very well, and introducing Subclasses won’t suddenly fix the issue, neither will suddenly balancing stats to be more inline with each other.

We are probably stuck with the current system, because in the effort to get rid of Tanks and Healers, they(anet) balanced every other stat to be less effective than Power, and also forgot that Control and Support are the basically the same thing as Tank and Healer, and rely on similar stats in other MMO’s (not including boon/condition duration)

The Problem is, they are useless most of the time because of how stats work in this game (that is debatable for Control, despite what this one guy keeps saying : draxynnic.3719, because control doesn’t rely on any specific stat, and the only thing nerfing it is a mechanic preventing 100% stunlock.)

I know I’ve suggested this before, but I will repeat it again: Underflow servers.

The root of all Horizontal Progression is the community. Chasing after nice aesthetics are pointless without other players to show it off to and interact with.

Please bring the community back to your game. We need underflow servers before Horizontal Progression even has a meaning.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

There has been a huge amount of discussion around sub classes. I would love to see you guys close out this particular area by either putting a sub class proposal together (Sentence detailing how it would work) or deciding as a group that it isn’t relevant at this point.

Personally I like the idea behind sub classes and see quite a few of the counter arguments based upon assumptions around balancing etc. Where possible we should try not to make decisions around feasibility of ideas through assumptions.

In short I would like to see if the CDI group thinks it is a relevant part of Horizontal Progression at this stage of GW2’s life?

Chris

While I do think it is relevant I think it is such a huge topic that it might warrant it’s own CDI.

Love the idea of sub-classes expanding the archetypes we already have to add more flavour the the 8 professions and more specialisation

I will leave the details to the people here who are good at that kind of thing

that said I do think the the Sociopolitical aspect of horizontal progression would make more of an immediate impact in game-play and that honestly remains my first choice

Chris Whiteside.6102:

There has been a huge amount of discussion around sub classes. I would love to see you guys close out this particular area by either putting a sub class proposal together (Sentence detailing how it would work) or deciding as a group that it isn’t relevant at this point.

In my eyes, Horizontal Progression is all about widening options, not limiting players.

With that in mind, this is how I’d personally like to see how sub-classes would work if they were ever to be implemented:

Players aren’t tied to a particular sub-class. That is, sub-classes are merely a means to unlock further options.

For example, a Thief might choose to go down the road of an Assassin, thus unlocking skills based around striking from the shadows. However, any skills unlocked from a sub-class can be used for the player to create their own builds. So a Thief who’s unlocked, say, Garrote from the Assassin sub-class and Blinding Poison from the Poisoner sub-class, would be able to use both of them skills in the same build. The only time players would be limited to using sub-class skills is during tasks that the player has to do to unlock skills for that sub-class.

Gaining mastery in a sub-class unlocks a weapon unique to that profession.

So, keeping in with the Thief, an Assassain might unlock a Crossbow, while a Poisoner might unlock a Blowgun.

As well as these, players would get cosmetic perks.

Such as unique armour pieces (along with an account-based title track, with the ultimate title ‘Nothing To Wear’), titles specific to that sub-class (Adept Assassin > Master Assassin). These cosmetic perks, again, aren’t tied to sub-class, but they are tied to that particular profession (so a Thief, for example, would be able to mix and match armour pieces from the Assassin and Poisoner sets).

Chris Whiteside.6102:

I would love to see you guys close out this particular area by either putting a sub class proposal together (Sentence detailing how it would work) or deciding as a group that it isn’t relevant at this point.

In short I would like to see if the CDI group thinks it is a relevant part of Horizontal Progression at this stage of GW2’s life?

I think that sub-classes (inside one main class) is actually a great idea for horizontal progression. I’d like to see some other things before that though… so to answer your last question, I think it should be put aside for a later addition…
It could be tied to lore/story though. With a new personal story segment later on, you could unlock a master of something within your class. For guardian per example, it could be a Master Monk giving access to new healing/protection utility skills upon completion of various tasks.
However, just like TheDaiBish just said, you shouldn’t be stuck in a sub-class forever and could mix match build between each you’ve unlocked.

BlackCabs, it certainly comes down to personal preference. I don’t want to have to fight to keep what’s mine, when it comes to player housing. I don’t even want to have to pay rent. Bottom line, I don’t want what I’ve built to decay just because I step away to do other things for a while. That being said, your proposal sounds like an interesting addition to the game so long as it’s not the only way to have a customizable personal space.

Chris, I do feel that subclassing is its own discussion. I’m not worrying about balance issues because I’m no theorycrafter and anyway I seem to always build the weakest possible character in MMOs and tabletops because I go for what looks fun. What does concern me is that it seems nearly impossible to add on specialized builds that don’t involve alterations in the power balance in some shape or form, which takes it out of this thread’s focus on more interesting things to do and see and shifts it to game mechanic alteration.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

There has been a huge amount of discussion around sub classes. I would love to see you guys close out this particular area by either putting a sub class proposal together (Sentence detailing how it would work) or deciding as a group that it isn’t relevant at this point.

Personally I like the idea behind sub classes and see quite a few of the counter arguments based upon assumptions around balancing etc. Where possible we should try not to make decisions around feasibility of ideas through assumptions.

In short I would like to see if the CDI group thinks it is a relevant part of Horizontal Progression at this stage of GW2’s life?

Chris

Not sure personally if it is relevant at this stage since the core professions still need some work to make more builds viable , but I’m happy to read people’s reasonings as to why or further discussion on it.

It would be easier though to read a new thread on it. Trying to keep up with all the branching ideas in the thread is only going to become trickier and off putting for incoming posters.

Even if not a dev initated CDI specific thread, it is worth someone starting this up anew to keep the train of thought going and in one place.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

There has been a huge amount of discussion around sub classes. I would love to see you guys close out this particular area by either putting a sub class proposal together (Sentence detailing how it would work) or deciding as a group that it isn’t relevant at this point.

Personally I like the idea behind sub classes and see quite a few of the counter arguments based upon assumptions around balancing etc. Where possible we should try not to make decisions around feasibility of ideas through assumptions.

In short I would like to see if the CDI group thinks it is a relevant part of Horizontal Progression at this stage of GW2’s life?

Chris

I personally would prefer NOT to have subclasses, as classes and subclasses imply specialization and exclusiveness (skills/traits/gear/content only available to a particular class or subclass).

Instead I would like to see more options and our characters becoming more generalist: being able to equip skills from other classes or even doing away with classes alltogether and seeing a revamp of the attribute lines like GW1 had (without the class restrictions).

For reference, I really like Ultima Online’s system, where there are 50+ skill lines which go up to 120, and you can freely distribute 720 skillpoints between them and really build your own class that way. Sampire is a very popular one: Any weaponskill + Bushido for samurai weapon abilities + Necromancy to turn into a vampire and leech life + Chivalry for extra paladin damage buffs. Really making your own character class is much more exciting than being pigeonholed into a specialization.

So with GW2, this would mean you can put attribute points in attribute lines, and each attribute line has a selection of skills to pick from which improve when you spend points in the line. Each level of an attribute requires more and more attribute points to unlock, so you can either choose to be specialist and have 2-3 attributes maxed out, or generalist and spread your attribute points between lines and seek to gain your strenght from finding powerful combinations and synergy between the associated skills themselves.

The armor type you wear should simply cost you attribute points. Or, if an universal resource (energy) is re-introduced, affect your rate of recovery.

In my opinion the current stats (power vitality etc) should be removed from the game in lieu of attribute lines. Item properties should synergize with attribute lines or skill categories (+X armor when affected by a shout, +Y stance duration, etc)

Chris Whiteside.6102:

There has been a huge amount of discussion around sub classes. I would love to see you guys close out this particular area by either putting a sub class proposal together (Sentence detailing how it would work) or deciding as a group that it isn’t relevant at this point.

Personally I like the idea behind sub classes and see quite a few of the counter arguments based upon assumptions around balancing etc. Where possible we should try not to make decisions around feasibility of ideas through assumptions.

In short I would like to see if the CDI group thinks it is a relevant part of Horizontal Progression at this stage of GW2’s life?

Chris

This post basically puts forth my ideas for sub-classes in a way that can
*Provide a coherent way to introduce build diversity (You’re an inquisitor who specializes in keeping people still, that’s why you have so much CC and torment).
*Be flexible enough to put player decisions first (full sub class, “create your own”, enhance a certain mechanic).
*Uses current systems and mechanics as implementation (events, traits, skills).

Essentially, you’re just adding new skills and traits. They’re grouped together in ways that you can invoke a certain feel for the class, and not too restricting to prevent players from gaining the skills/effects they want which allows people to make their own sub-class. We almost see this in the forums with builds, and this idea only expands on that, rather than try to make 8 professions by 3 subclasses per.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

There has been a huge amount of discussion around sub classes. I would love to see you guys close out this particular area by either putting a sub class proposal together (Sentence detailing how it would work) or deciding as a group that it isn’t relevant at this point.

Personally I like the idea behind sub classes and see quite a few of the counter arguments based upon assumptions around balancing etc. Where possible we should try not to make decisions around feasibility of ideas through assumptions.

In short I would like to see if the CDI group thinks it is a relevant part of Horizontal Progression at this stage of GW2’s life?

Chris

I’ve been defending a subclass system pretty strongly in both this thread and the old one, but even several of my points are based on assumptions, and sometimes those assumptions would probably not fit at all together into the same system.

I think in order to push this discussion a little bit further, we’ll need some extra direction or information from you, Chris. For example, how ambitious is Anet willing to be if the subclass system concept were to go on? Do you simply want to expand on already existing systems, or do you believe new systems should be added into or even substitute current mechanics set in place? And if so, why? Another example, what do you think a subclass system would offer to GW2, that traits already can’t, Chris?

You don’t need to ask those questions directly, but some extra direction would help, imo.

Orpheal.8263:

I want to ask you directly:
What is your problem with there being Sub Class Skills, that you can use only, when you have chosen the correspondign Sub Class for it or with Armor Sets, that you can wear only, when you use the fitting Sub Class?
While you think about your answer, I want you, that you think also on the Racial Skills and Cultural Armors which actually work the same.

The only problem I have with Subclasses (other than thinking they might not work because of how stats work in this game (see my above Post)

Is that a subclass system might lock you out of certain build and skill choices. I know that is your whole point in your subclass idea and you have made several lengthy posts on why its not a bad thing, but, I like that currently you can access any of your profession skills, without any barrier. I like that I can use a Signet of the Hunt, a Muddy Terrain, and “Protect Me!” in the same build if that is how I want to play.

An idea I have for Subclasses would be to instead give players a bonus if they fully invest 30 points into any two of your Traitlines. They do not require a Trait, and unlock automatically once you hit 30 points into any traitline. If you want a more complex system, then the Subclass bonus can activate even with less than 30 points, the specific bonus changes depending on what exactly you invest in. (also at this point its more Diagonal progression than vertical or horizontal, but still what I would prefer)

It is a small bonus and doesn’t affect the game by a large margin. It can also give you a new Profession Icon right alongside your old one. For Example….

Subclasses for Ranger (I love this class, despite other people’s opinions!)

• Invest Fully into Marksmanship and Beastmastery, Become a Beastmaster, Increases the Duration of Signet effects by 15%, and Reduces the Cooldown on Signets by a further 15% (35% total with Signet Mastery)

• Invest Fully into Marksmanship and Precision, Become a Sniper, Increases Range on Shortbow and Axes by 300, and adds a 15% damage bonus to all Ranged weapons when shooting near Max. Range (within 300 units of max. range)

• Invest Fully into Skirmishing and Wilderness Survival, Become a Warden, You take 10% less damage from physical damage and conditions, and increases the radius of your Traps by a further 60.

• Invest Fully into Nature Magic and Beastmastery, Become a Druid, Increases Healing Effectiveness by 15% and increases the duration of all Boons by 15%.

• (I am against this personally), Maybe fully investing into two Traitlines gives you access to a new weapon. 5 Total, and different combinations give you access to different weapons. For example, the Druid and Warden I just gave would give you access to a Staff, and the Beastmaster and Sniper would give you access to Rifles.

Even though they only affect specific skills, they do not lock you out of other skills. That’s what I would rather see, but at this point, I am in favor of just about anything that increases my options when running out there killing things, as having to use the same 5 skills on my skillbar for almost two years (I played in beta), its starting to get extremely stale.

Last thing though, lets stop the back and forth and come up with something for a subclass proposal, because it is definitely something I want to see.

Hey Chris, all this discussion brings up one big question from me: how feasible is all of this? Cause players (and me too) are putting forward some pretty ambitious and detailed featurerequests. Features that currently do not exist in GW2 at all and kinda move away from the game design as it stands (For example, with the housing I see a lot of requests for sandbox features, while the game is technically a themepark MMO).

I’m currently a game designer in the real world and have designed some pretty big MMOs in the past. Even though I give lectures on crowdsourcing game design and involving the player communities in this process, as a game designer I’d be VERY unhappy if the community gets to make decissions like this: I personally see myself in charge of the game’s overall vision and when I was lead designer on an active MMO (sadly the plug got pulled out of that one due to IP licence being terminated), I had a multi-year plan in place for new features and content to add. I’d poll the community for popularity on each of the features which I had already for 90%+ finalized the design of, so I could prioritize and shuffle the order in which they would appear, so the community input might influence that last 10% which I’d still be unsure about and was still open to discussion.

But in the end it was I, and the rest of the design team, that held the vision for the game. Not the players.

So I kinda wonder how this works with Arenanet? Why are you asking us all this stuff? Is there no multi-year plan in place with features that you’re going to add next? Are you looking how to prioritize upcoming features? Do you have unfinished ideas for features but are you turning to us to fill in the details and get some fresh inspiration? Or did you have a vision but did it fail (Living Story? Manifesto up in flames? Dwindeling playerbase?), and are you now establishing a new vision and turning the players to help you with this?

So what is the role of this CDI and how far will you take it? How realistic is it for players to expect to see any of this stuff being added to the game? And why do you need us in the fist place, why don’t you have a game designer or creative director in charge that tells the team what to do next?

Not to bash this initiative, but I must say I personally prefer a dictatorship regarding game design over a democracy by the unwashed masses. A dictatorship led by CAPABLE people with a vision, talent and great attention to detail.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Kain Francois.4328:

I know I’ve suggested this before, but I will repeat it again: Underflow servers.

The root of all Horizontal Progression is the community. Chasing after nice aesthetics are pointless without other players to show it off to and interact with.

Please bring the community back to your game. We need underflow servers before Horizontal Progression even has a meaning.

Personally I think Underflow Servers are very important to. I do however think that your final sentence is a bit over the top (-:

Chris

Pardon me, but this is an MMO. I don’t see anything over the top about it.

Have you tried going to Lornar’s Pass and calling out events? How about Timberline Falls, and Brisban Wildlands?

This game was meant to be played with other players, as we did during launch. However, because of a flawed “server” system, where players are pointlessly segregated (WHY!?), 48 players in Fields of Ruin are split into 2 players each server. That makes it impossible to do events, or at least, make it un-fun.

Do you have any idea how long I waited for ONE other player to help with the Krait Witch during the Tower of Nightmares? HOURS. And that was during a Living Story arc, with an achievement attached to it! Do you think players would’ve cared otherwise?

Events are NOT fun to solo. Nor’ are they profitable. There for, you have a catch 22 of events which require other players to scale up and drop decent loot, but because other players aren’t coming, the event wont scale up. There for, players aren’t able to horizontally progress both in their profits or community. That is a flaw which needs fixing.

How are players supposed to feel accomplished if all they do all day is stand around in Lion’s Arch? There is no real sense of achievement if there is no one to clear an event with. Even back in the day of offline games, players still felt a sense of accomplishment because they could brag to their friends how they beat Contra. These days, ironically in an online world, most players don’t give a kitten if you escort a Dolyak, and they aren’t there to see your legendary weapon.

I mean, it’s your game, and you could pretend it’s not a problem. But don’t tell your fans they are over the top when they complain your game is dying. We really don’t care about your 460k statistics, when the actual experience itself segregates players and creates the impression of an abandoned, desolate area.

Suppose legendary weapons are the pinnacle of Horizontal Progression in GW2. But who would go after a Legendary if they were client side-only? Or better yet, what if the only areas in the game you could even use the weapon, are world bosses where players can’t see them anyways due to culling and particle effects?

At this current stage, you’ve created an environment where player sense of accomplishment hits a brick wall, and the player has no more incentive to horizontally progress.

My point is you need community. Aesthetics AND experience are meant to be shared with other players. Horizontal progression IS community!

Heck, you DON’T even need “Horizontal Progression” if there are other players to share an intense experience and memories with. It’s why WvW and Stonemist Castle are such a huge success, and it’s a little thing I like to call “Fun”.

Horizontal Progression should be there to compliment a memory and experience. It’s what creates “Fun”. Even if it is a grind, the community aspect of it is what makes the experience enjoyable. Without the “Fun”, you have what Extra Credits calls a “Skinner Box”.

I’m not against the idea of Sub-classes completely, I just feel that this isn’t the topic for it. I’d hate to see housing taking a backseat to this. As such I will be arguing against it in this thread.

In my eyes Horizontal progression is put bluntly about showing off, In my 1000 hours I have accomplished all this, this challenge you were unable to do, that Item you did’nt manage to get, this rare drop. It’s differentiation by adding enough challenges that no one person completes everything but each player has completed a unique set of challenges.

1. I still do not see what game-play this will add? I now have a subclass, what time investment will this take? it seems quite low at the moment or possibly like an instant gain on level 80? a new fighting style isn’t new game-play,I’m not going to replay all I’ve doen just because I have some new skills, I’m not playing an MMO for its combat.

2. I play a jack of trades Elementalist (and a mage of some form in every game I’ve ever played where it’s possible), Will the addition of subclasses prevent me doing this? I tank, CC and DPS all at once as every character was designed to do in this game. Will I now have to change my skills every time I switch from dungeon to open world, to fractal to Wvw ? I’ll ignore Pvp for that part.

3. All right you now have a subclass….along with everyone else, how have we progressed? gaining the subclass was not an achievement, it did’nt make you stand out from anyone else. Where is the Reward for your efforts?

4. It fails the is it Horizontal test suggested on the first page, any subclass added will have to change the way you play in combat in some form leading to either increased or decreased efficiency in your combat. i.e you kill the plains worm faster or slower.

I realize I’m coming across as very argumentative but I do honestly feel housing adds several times the Gameplay and objectives to the game. In addition it would be optional to those who for some reason really hate the idea.

I am not sure if this has been mentioned as I haven’t had chance to read all 36 pages but wanted to throw the idea out there anyway.

But having timed runs a little similar to wow where you run dungeons and get rewards for running the dungeon is a bronze, silver or gold time.

Getting all the dungeons in a gold time unlocks rewards (cosmetic) & achievements.

Apologies again if this has already been mentioned.

From what I have read, the suggestions have been fantastic.