Guild Wars 2

zamalek.2154:

lordkrall.7241:

The main issue with measuring skill by reaction time is that it automatically makes people …

Completely valid point, but there is an easier counter-argument to reaction time (and other skill-based systems): elitism.

Edit: Removed a counterargument regarding fractals. This thread is not a fractal discussion.

So you agree that reaction time is a skillbased System ? since you say and other skillbased System.. so you just don’t want have skillchallenges in the game because you are afraid that People Show off they’re accomplishments and you feel like they’re elitists cause of that? And even if so what? just ignore em. Like I needed to ignore all those accusations of *************** things that I can’t mention but were mentioned a lot in the fractured dicussion. And This thread is not about fractals but about Progression. And RESETING Progression is a VERY IMPORTANT Topic when talking about Progression. Is it a true Progression if it can be reseted at any time? If somthing can be deleted/reseted did you truly Progress?

This is one of the definitions of the word:

noun

1 [mass noun] the process of developing gradually towards a more advanced state:

good opportunities for career progression

[count noun]:
a steady progression towards your goals

•movement towards a destination:

their mode of progression through the forest

• [count noun] Music a passage or movement from one note or chord to another:

a blues progression

• [count noun] Astrology a predictive technique in which the daily movement of the planets, starting from the day of birth, represents a year in the subject’s life.

2a number of things in a series:

the vista unfolds in a progression of castles and vineyards as seemingly endless as the Rhine itself

“the process of developing gradually towards a more advanced state” does this really happen if you can be thrown back to a state before? Because you don’t gradualy advance if a reset is part of the Progression. You might not realize because you weren’t hurt by this whole update. Maybe if all your account would be reseted all your items and achievments deleted you would also ask question if all things you did before to Progress your account really was a Progression if it can be reseted at any time…

Patrikan Habaton.2548:

VOLKON.1290:

Patrikan Habaton.2548:

There is no way in measuring skill without taking reaction time into consideration.

Ever watch a chess match?

You seem to never watched one or you would know you don’t have unlimited time to decide what you do next. You know why Computer started beating the best chess Players?
Because there is for each combinations on the deck a best way to answer, to be a semi profi you Need to know the best answer to the first 10 moves if you are a profi chess Player you Need to know the best answer for moves for about the 32 moves is it skill? Yeah it is the skill to remember the right moves but if a chessplayer like a gamer has the posibility to look up things it’s meaning less since he could just take a Manual and win ( This is how the Computer wins the chess match against the profi Players:))

You said there was no way to measure skill without taking reaction time into account. There’s no twitch in chess.

The Lost Witch.7601:

cesmode.4257:

I disagree that the WXP system is verticle. You become stronger but not in the sense that it makes it verticle. In a straight up fight between you and me using only the class abilities at our disposal, pure skill (and, yes gear) will determine who wins. Having a fully maxed out Siege Mastery or Guard Mastery(I cannot remember the name) will make little difference.

The difference between ascended and exotic gear is also little. But it is there. And the thing is… it is not always a straight up fight between you and me.

Let’s put it like this:

You have siege mastery and guard mastery and are therefor better at using siege and fighting guards.

I only have guard mastery. This makes me less in potential in the grand scheme of battle. (I may still be a better player, though unlikely , but not having siege mastery makes it so that you have more potential than I have)

What I propose is a system in which you’d have to choose between guard mastery and siege mastery. You just cannot have both. You may have unlocked more different options, and through earning ‘respec’ points, you may be more flexible. But you would not simply be stronger. Sure, the ability to respec in more different directions can be useful in niche situations, but I would not ever feel like I am worse than you. Since I have my own niche to shine in. (Slaying guards… ok, not so shiny a niche )

Ofcourse, in this regard, you may be able to spec into more than one such lines. But there should be a limit, and it should be reachable for casual players.

How does that change anything? Yeah you can unlock only one thing but how about somebody who has not unlocked it yet. Then it also says nothing about the skills.

I think the solution is to make it all more in reach. Maybe make it so then you can earn all points even in 4 hours of playing but they reset after one week.

Did you ever play Wolfenstein ET? There they have a system like that. You can ‘level up’. And it’s pretty easy leveling up. Just a few hours and your fully leveling up with your class but you will lose your points after some time.

Then you still have a benefit from playing but everything is easily in reach for everybody it stays interesting and you never have the problem that new players get behind to much.

We already have the normal char level as level. No need to add other types of level on top of that.

ColinJohanson.2394:

A lot of the ideas boiled down into variations of one of these two options, and really both have a lot of cool concepts and ideas. Can folks think of anything else that’s a bit more outside the box for something bigger?

My thoughts outside of boxs seems to go mainly for EXPLORATION.

IMAGINE: We get map over Frostgeorge in Living Story? and pact is getting into there and fight off Jormag minions, on the next update we get some bases built in there and for next month story could be frozen as Pact gathers resources (or some little tweaks planed) and at that time we can go look for some frozen masters, joutan ancient forges from the time they were mighty, we might explore do some mini dungeons, learn some skills or recipes in there. After that we go even deeper into Jormags territory. We might tie some alliances, trade some or our skills (like creating weapons for pact or joutans that would tie our character to work in camp and log out for some time, after that time we could log in). Those skills, weapons etc could be used on that second map to change the map control. You can use some kind of mini WvW on that map and each day we hold some points we progress few steps ahead with front line.

The idea would be to do things various ways, use our skills to gather informations, gather resources use war schematics (WvW) to progress into enemies territories and move front line. In that ares there should be almost no WPs (3-5 per map), there should be more populated with each update by mostly military forces, we should get works in there to help in various ways, but it should be kind of permanent investment. Our actions should move front line by little over time, not like in WvW when zerg comes and crushes as pleased. We should not be able to do it with elder dragon minions. We need to see fortresses being build from the scratch, getting stronger, with more supplies that we get them (like event to get supplies every 2 hours). Our effort should be awarded with fractions progression (after making system that would count actions in LS like that and hearts toward support to selected fractions). With participation our rank should increase (thats a hard part after being just below Trehern) to allow us access to cool ares or more dangerous parts of those new maps (ares where monsters would outlevel you maybe for 1 then 2 levels). Those would also come with better drops and nodes with new kind of materials, non-craftable for us but materials that would be used by Joutans or other special crafters that would make weapons for solders only which would again give us support for fraction (capped weekly).

Well this is only a war idea, but there are way more that you can do with few additional systems in game. Fracion support system is the most important for me and it should be tied with the idea, that even char what did a great dids for Krytans could became one of them and use seraphs armors as a honorable reward for his effort.

I like the idea of expanding interaction and instances with the orders.

Each of the orders have strongholds and it would be amazing to see these places expanded with both maps and instances. You could also tie them in with existing events. Maybe a character would have to participate in certain little-participated in portal event to get a “hint of residue” from the portal that would drop if you got a hit in on it You would need to return it to your order for study that would lead to another discovery and another event in the world that they would have to participate in.

I see this as not only a way to advance story line but also the reward at the end of an arc could be new skill points. Also less populated events and areas could be revived.

If these chains could be linked in with existing events, it would mitigate the need for entirely new content although a certain amount of new would need to be mixed in I believe.

I would love to see new skills and story linked to further horizontal progression.

Devata.6589:

The Lost Witch.7601:

cesmode.4257:

I disagree that the WXP system is verticle. You become stronger but not in the sense that it makes it verticle. In a straight up fight between you and me using only the class abilities at our disposal, pure skill (and, yes gear) will determine who wins. Having a fully maxed out Siege Mastery or Guard Mastery(I cannot remember the name) will make little difference.

The difference between ascended and exotic gear is also little. But it is there. And the thing is… it is not always a straight up fight between you and me.

Let’s put it like this:

You have siege mastery and guard mastery and are therefor better at using siege and fighting guards.

I only have guard mastery. This makes me less in potential in the grand scheme of battle. (I may still be a better player, though unlikely , but not having siege mastery makes it so that you have more potential than I have)

What I propose is a system in which you’d have to choose between guard mastery and siege mastery. You just cannot have both. You may have unlocked more different options, and through earning ‘respec’ points, you may be more flexible. But you would not simply be stronger. Sure, the ability to respec in more different directions can be useful in niche situations, but I would not ever feel like I am worse than you. Since I have my own niche to shine in. (Slaying guards… ok, not so shiny a niche )

Ofcourse, in this regard, you may be able to spec into more than one such lines. But there should be a limit, and it should be reachable for casual players.

How does that change anything? Yeah you can unlock only one thing but how about somebody who has not unlocked it yet. Then it also says nothing about the skills.

I think the solution is to make it all more in reach. Maybe make it so then you can earn all points even in 4 hours of playing but they reset after one week.

Did you ever play Weinstein ET? There they have a system like that. You can ‘level up’. And it’s pretty easy leveling up. Just a few hours and your fully leveling up with your class but you will lose your points after some time.

Then you still have a benefit from playing but everything is easily in reach for everybody it stays interesting and you never have the problem that new players get behind to much.

We already have the normal char level as level. No need to add other types of level on top of that.

I am afraid that I haven’t played many different games.

My idea would change the game in that it wouldn’t take literally forever to max out your character.

Now don’t get me wrong: I wouldn’t want to see this idea happen in PvE. But if it comes, then I would much rather see it in a specialisation version than the current WxP version.

Unlocking shouldn’t take ages either. I would be fine with it taking about… say 30 hours to get all of the unlocks. And about 10 to get all of the points. The progression would lay more in specialising than in getting better. And unlocking more things to specialize could be done on a whim. (Oh let’s go for this! And then spend an hour unlocking it through… I don’t know what yet?)

As for the weekly reset… I think it may become tiresome to ‘prepare’ for the week? And it could be a bit weird to lose your progression? (But… didn’t I learn how to shoot a cannon properly last week?)

But I am all for ‘in reach’, because that is what is putting me off so much about the WxP system aswell as ascended gear… it is out of reach.

To be honest, I have no idea how sub-classes or elite classes would work for “Horizontal Progression.”

• If it’s just 1 subclass per class, then it will feel vertical because it’s one linear path that while it may not be required, player psychology considers it as “more powerful” or “better.”

• If it’s even just 2-3 subclasses per class, then that’s 16-24 NEW CLASSES Arenanet has to design, which even if done at a basic level, would take an enormous amount of time!

• Basically, even if the intent would be “Horizontal Progression,” the player mentality and design would point to Vertical Progression.

• The only logical way I see of adding Horizontal Progression with regards to improved gameplay (cosmetics/visuals excluded) is to increase versatility and flexibility between the class roles/styles of play and to add new skills, traits, and perhaps even weapons to the existing classes.

• For sub-classes, Horizontal Progression doesn’t make sense to me. If sub-classes were to be designed, I’d expect them to be the next baby step of Vertical Progression. This way, they could be given all the flare, new mechanics, new skills, new trait lines, etc…that would make them unique, powerful, and something every player would WANT to achieve for ALL of their characters.

ColinJohanson.2394:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Remember GW1’s Hall of Monuments, where the winning team got a game-wide chat message announcing their victory? Using that as an inspiration, but thinking of something completely different (without involving pvp), what about some content being unlocked at the end of epic dynamic events, and rewarding access to unique content?

But hey, this already happens with some mini-dungeons, don’t they? Maybe this concept could be expanded upon.

CONCEPT FOR OPEN-WORLD MINI-SCENARIOS

The teams that would complete specific and long challenging dynamic event chains would unlock access to unique mini-dungeons, with some interesting stories, scenarios and challenges behind them, all leading to a mini-story conclusion and a flavored reward to those players. The reward could be anything, including a new subclass tier, or mastery, or something.
…

…and a ray of light would shine upon them for all other players to see. Another message would automatically be generated in the map, this time announcing the players who have advanced through a mastery, and all other players in the map would be like “wow, how did you get your name in the chat? What did you do to get that mastery? I want to get it too!”

Very cool, something we’ve discussed a lot internally as well in regards to some of our concepts of what future maps would look like

Some of this seems a little bit silly or over the top to me when I read it, but I can tell you that I still have the screenshot that a guildie took for me in GW1 of the LA chat box that said something along the lines of:

Ayelet Feldspar has achieved the title God Walking Amongst Mere Mortals.

So, while reading it in the post seems kinda cheesy, there is some value to the player name showing up in the chat box or I wouldn’t have saved the screenie, or even had someone standing in LA to take it.

I also made sure to get my full beam of light in the HoM and I was very sad to see that absolutely none of the statues, or the light, remained in GW2.

So, think about this type of reward or progression — a beam of light doesn’t help kill that skale in Queensdale any quicker at all, but it could still be something that players devote a lot of time and effort to achieving.

Coming late to the discussion, I’ll just post my idea about the potential sub-class system or skill-and-trait-unlock system.
I will stick to the subclass idea, as the other one can be extracted from that:
If I get a subclass, I want to get a new classname OR a title to show what I achieved. (Engineer > Grenadier)
This should be the result of some work and either the finish line of all efforts (you have mastered grenades, you are now a grenadier) or the early middle (you are now a grenadier, master it).
The unlock-progress should have at least some scripted story part which gives an idea of the flavour of the class.

Examples set, here is what I want in a more abstract level:
1. A certain feat unlocks a story.
2. The story introduces me to the option of picking a certain subclass.
3. The story is interspersed or followed by more free tasks over the map which are related to the playstyle I am going for. Tasks include:
a) The Tracking Down of mobs.
b) The finding of hidden places.
c) The completion of Jumping Puzzles
d) The finishing of meta events
e) The acquisition of certain items, possibly as a result of meta events.
4. The completion of these subtasks introduces me to new skills and traits. If possible, there are instances with mini-missions that require me to apply these.
5. The newly acquired sub-class skills/traits are the key to finishing the story.

But the most universal and important rule is this:
The progress of my character should be the reward of a feat, not a grind.
I want to be rewarded for doing something right, not for doing something repeatedly over 20 hours That means: No currency, no skill points. Force me to play this game in its whole variety.

VOLKON.1290:

Patrikan Habaton.2548:

VOLKON.1290:

Patrikan Habaton.2548:

There is no way in measuring skill without taking reaction time into consideration.

Ever watch a chess match?

You seem to never watched one or you would know you don’t have unlimited time to decide what you do next. You know why Computer started beating the best chess Players?
Because there is for each combinations on the deck a best way to answer, to be a semi profi you Need to know the best answer to the first 10 moves if you are a profi chess Player you Need to know the best answer for moves for about the 32 moves is it skill? Yeah it is the skill to remember the right moves but if a chessplayer like a gamer has the posibility to look up things it’s meaning less since he could just take a Manual and win ( This is how the Computer wins the chess match against the profi Players:))

You said there was no way to measure skill without taking reaction time into account. There’s no twitch in chess.

A fast reaction is relative to the challenge you are dealing with to give a good answer and make a good reaction to a chess Situation you have a bigger timewindow than on other things. Still you have a time window and a certain timelimit to react and if you don’t react in that timelimit it Fails so there is a reaction time. Especially when talking about Computer games. Take a Computer Quizshow with 1 Million reward if you don’t have a certain timeframe in wich you Need to get the answer People just Google all answers and are fine. Same with reacting right to a certain sittuation in an MMORGP if you have unlimited time to make a move you can just go step for step and do the challenge in 8 hours because you can wikilook up all things you Need to do. You get my Point or you just discussing out of boredom?

zamalek.2154:

Those points are a summary of only your suggestion, suggestions (regarding subclasses)

As you point out, multiple summaries of ideas have been done, but that’s not what I was doing.

I was attempting to pinpoint a broader near-consensus the majority of the community seems to be developing throughout this long discussion, concerning elements and methods the myriad posters have said they will or will not find desirable or even acceptable in a specialization concept.

The three listed components are of course not expressed parts of that perceived consensus itself, but serve as prime examples of pieces that do not go against it. Yes, two of them were also used in my own recent suggestion. Others have used them before and since, and that suggestion sprouted from a mental draft of these very same community-originated pseudo-guidelines, instead of the other way around. After removing everything people have roundly said they don’t want changed, these are a few of the most obvious and effective existing pieces of the game that are left available.

(I know I also reused the word “archetype,” but “subclass” tends to get a negative reaction in this thread, and the former is my favorite alternative.)

This whole CDI has been a great font of creativity, and I am eager to see what else people come up with!

The Lost Witch.7601:

Devata.6589:

The Lost Witch.7601:

cesmode.4257:

I disagree that the WXP system is verticle. You become stronger but not in the sense that it makes it verticle. In a straight up fight between you and me using only the class abilities at our disposal, pure skill (and, yes gear) will determine who wins. Having a fully maxed out Siege Mastery or Guard Mastery(I cannot remember the name) will make little difference.

The difference between ascended and exotic gear is also little. But it is there. And the thing is… it is not always a straight up fight between you and me.

Let’s put it like this:

You have siege mastery and guard mastery and are therefor better at using siege and fighting guards.

I only have guard mastery. This makes me less in potential in the grand scheme of battle. (I may still be a better player, though unlikely , but not having siege mastery makes it so that you have more potential than I have)

What I propose is a system in which you’d have to choose between guard mastery and siege mastery. You just cannot have both. You may have unlocked more different options, and through earning ‘respec’ points, you may be more flexible. But you would not simply be stronger. Sure, the ability to respec in more different directions can be useful in niche situations, but I would not ever feel like I am worse than you. Since I have my own niche to shine in. (Slaying guards… ok, not so shiny a niche )

Ofcourse, in this regard, you may be able to spec into more than one such lines. But there should be a limit, and it should be reachable for casual players.

How does that change anything? Yeah you can unlock only one thing but how about somebody who has not unlocked it yet. Then it also says nothing about the skills.

I think the solution is to make it all more in reach. Maybe make it so then you can earn all points even in 4 hours of playing but they reset after one week.

Did you ever play Weinstein ET? There they have a system like that. You can ‘level up’. And it’s pretty easy leveling up. Just a few hours and your fully leveling up with your class but you will lose your points after some time.

Then you still have a benefit from playing but everything is easily in reach for everybody it stays interesting and you never have the problem that new players get behind to much.

We already have the normal char level as level. No need to add other types of level on top of that.

I am afraid that I haven’t played many different games.

My idea would change the game in that it wouldn’t take literally forever to max out your character.

Now don’t get me wrong: I wouldn’t want to see this idea happen in PvE. But if it comes, then I would much rather see it in a specialisation version than the current WxP version.

Unlocking shouldn’t take ages either. I would be fine with it taking about… say 30 hours to get all of the unlocks. And about 10 to get all of the points. The progression would lay more in specialising than in getting better. And unlocking more things to specialize could be done on a whim. (Oh let’s go for this! And then spend an hour unlocking it through… I don’t know what yet?)

As for the weekly reset… I think it may become tiresome to ‘prepare’ for the week? And it could be a bit weird to lose your progression? (But… didn’t I learn how to shoot a cannon properly last week?)

But I am all for ‘in reach’, because that is what is putting me off so much about the WxP system aswell as ascended gear… it is out of reach.

You don’t really have to prepare. It just comes along the way (like in W:ET)

Have a look at the video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mTl47fsf0E&t=4m30s in the left bottom you see his ‘levels’ 0-4. Two are general based and can every class get, one is class based. You can do something similar in WvW. You play kitten a class or maybe your profession is a class. For example, only a warrior can unlock the treb stuff, a ranger the arrow-card or so meting like that. Then professions would also get a better role.

Anyway, the think is, leveling up is very easy and it’s really not something you need to prepare for, it just happens along the way. (at 4:55 you see him level up one of the general lines)

Hmm one thing I think we need is dual-spec, maybe even triple-spec.

I play WvW most of the time and all my gear and traits are speced to WvW. But use it in PvE or sPvP, and it’s kidda useless or a lot harder to play.
Even in WvW sometimes you want to run with the zerg and other times you want to roam, but again your gear and traits need to be changed to make yourself more effective

So if we add dual/triple-spec, people can enjoy the game more as they can swap out their entire gear and switch trait lines with a single click, or two.

Omaris Mortuus Est.2738:

Hmm one thing I think we need is dual-spec, maybe even triple-spec.

I play WvW most of the time and all my gear and traits are speced to WvW. But use it in PvE or sPvP, and it’s kidda useless or a lot harder to play.
Even in WvW sometimes you want to run with the zerg and other times you want to roam, but again your gear and traits need to be changed to make yourself more effective

So if we add dual/triple-spec, people can enjoy the game more as they can swap out their entire gear and switch trait lines with a single click, or two.

I definitely feel it’s needed as well, but it’s not “progression.” That’s a Quality of Life improvement, such that it would improve the way a player plays the game right now in its current form.

Patrikan Habaton.2548:

So you agree that reaction time is a skillbased System ? since you say and other skillbased System.. so you just don’t want have skillchallenges in the game because you are afraid that People Show off they’re accomplishments and you feel like they’re elitists cause of that?

I don’t think any of us are against having skill challenges in the game. It is more about how they should be recognized and rewarded.

When Tequatl came out, I’ve spend days co-organizing the server for a kill. The difficulty lay mostly in getting everyone together and explaining what needs to be done. Reaction time wasn’t really a factor in that.

Getting that kill was arguably harder for me than for most other players there. (I’ve spend more time and effort on making it work) Yet I did not get any rewards for it. (In fact, it cost me a small fortune on feasts and potions to share )

The reward lay in getting the kill, accomplishing something that was difficult for me to do. I was rewarded by the joy on teamspeak.

On another occasion I was slaying a troll champion of the group event kind on my own. I got butchered a few times, but made a few build changes to eventually come out on top. My reward was a champion bag, but more importantly, the thrill of a challenging victory. Reaction time certainly was a factor in this fight, and probably the reason why I had so much trouble with it. Because I’m lousy at thinking fast.

There are two things that I am getting at with these anekdotes:

• Not all ‘skills’ that should be valuable in this game is based on reaction times. (In my opinion… the focus lays too much on dodging )

• Challenge doesn’t always need to be rewarded through status or wealth in order to be satisfying. Although I agree… something would be nice.

But what can we give as a skill based reward that isn’t either:

a) too awesome to lock out for those without the required skills. (Be it strategic, social, linguistical, mathematical, musical, memory or reflex based) For instance, access to Elona would be too awesome.

b) making the economical difference between those with the preferred skills and those without too big. (If skilled players suddenly start earning twice the money, that means that those without those skills will have to pay much more for all the things they would like to get due to inflation)

c) making the game easier for those who are good at it. (Locking combat-improvements behind skill-gates sounds like a terrible idea)

d) locking off player interaction. (If doing things alone is more rewarding than playing in a group… I don’t think that works well for an MMORPG)

e) gating players into groups. (This is what fractals are doing in a way: they seperate the skilled veterans from the newbies with an agony lock.) This makes it harder for guildmembers to play with one another.

f) offending. (Imagine all ‘unskilled’ players having a green aura, while all ‘skilled’ players have a blue one…)

g) infuriating. (RNG coming in to make the difference between the players skilled enough to beat the challenge once or twice, and those who can do it five times a day)

And we’re down to a pretty short list.

Especially if we take into account that hiding skins behind a skill-gate is also slightly problematic:

If we hide too many skins behind skill-gates, then the masses won’t get many skins since there are only so many dev resources. And if they are too awesome… we’re not complying to rule a).

If we hide too few skins behind skill-gates, then all the skilled players get the same thing. And what’s the fun in everyone looking the same? (Though the obsidian armor-masses in GW1 beg to differ I guess.)

Unless… it’s all just to show off your accomplishments.

A title, or a hat/backpiece of some sort? Or a trophy to put next to the fireplace?

At the very least, a harmless achievement would be nice. Perhaps one of those that you cannot see on the list, or that doesn’t give any achievement points… an achievement that is just there to tell you that you’ve accomplished something awesome… but not part of a ‘to do list’.

But from what I hear … the skilled players want more than that. For me it is enough. And all the text before this was just to explain why I think that it should be enough.

I have several posts in the work first one is…

Global Dominance

I love the idea of global dominance. It would be cool if each successful defense at 80% of zone control or above rewarded champ bags shifting champ farming from circle killing and incentivizing event completion and zone control. Getting a zone to 100% grants a guaranteed daily rare and jug of karma. Those rewards can also be gained by helping to defend a zone that is at 100% from the world boss and their army that spawns to take the zone back. (Think karaka queen, but without the crazy event spawn rates in South Sun).

If tied to the factions and faction missions, helping to complete 100% domination in a zone could replace the HM vanquishing that was required to max out factions in GW1. This would tie the system in to character progression and incentivize players to complete the zone. Unique skins/stat combos could be available when the zone is at 80-100%

If it is possible to track total number of players logged into the server and not include players in SPvP and WvW GD could scale to make it easier on players during off hours. They wouldn’t get the epic sieges that primetime would, but they could complete DEs to help maintain world control and buff up base defenses and supply lines. A server wide announcement detailing an off hour siege could also serve to bring off hour players together in the open world.

By modifying the map interface to display a percentage of the map under control would help players choose which map they want to join. Overflow maps will have the same events going but do not contribute to overall server ranking. The percentage control display will transition from green to red based on how full the map. Green means you can get in right away, yellow means it is nearly full and red would let you know that there are overflows on this map. If a guild has used their ability to claim an outpost on the map guild members will receive priority queuing (guilds could only claim on outpost in all of tyria).

Outpost claiming would serve as a nice mechanic for guild progression as it would invest them in a location and give them a place to (at least for a day or two) call home.

Forst.5863:

That means: No currency, no skill points. Force me to play this game in its whole variety.

Great post with a minor change…

Force me to play this game in ALMOST its whole variety…

Many players have a problem with just one area of the game — jump puzzles for me are very difficult, but for some people with disabilities they are, quite literally, impossible. Make 5 things and require 4 of them — 10 things and require 8 of them — give people one or two outs for the type of game play that they truly do not enjoy.

Devata.6589:

You don’t really have to prepare. It just comes along the way (like in W:ET)

Have a look at the video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mTl47fsf0E&t=4m30s in the left bottom you see his ‘levels’ 0-4. Two are general based and can every class get, one is class based. You can do something similar in WvW. You play kitten a class or maybe your profession is a class. For example, only a warrior can unlock the treb stuff, a ranger the arrow-card or so meting like that. Then professions would also get a better role.

Anyway, the think is, leveling up is very easy and it’s really not something you need to prepare for, it just happens along the way. (at 4:55 you see him level up one of the general lines)

Hmm, I kind of liked the quick in-game progression of DotA 3.7 (Don’t know exactly how the later iterations like LoL and DotA 2 work, but I guess in a similar fashion)

You would work towards ‘critical’ level (usually at about 6 out of the max of 10 levels, at which you unlocked your ‘ultimate’ skill) and then prepare for a massive siege. The progression was partly done by leveling but also by getting buffs and items.

The difference was that it didn’t really feel like ‘my character’ in the next game though. It was a brand new hero that I’d start out with every game. Oh and the progression was much more impactful of course.

I don’t know if it’d work so well within GW2. But perhaps you can convince me?

A few questions to start with:

• Would you suggest this as a replacement of the WxP system in WvW, or also as a method of progression in PvE? And if so… what would we be progressing? Our stats, or something else?

• How do we go about changing builds, would this reset the progression aswell? So that we can pick a new specialisation to complement our build?

• Would it benefit all characters, or just the one you’ve progressed with? (This may lead to alt-players being at a disadvantage perhaps)

More to come if I can find the time, and in response to your answers.

I think the most interesting route to take with subclasses would be putting in variations of existing profession mechanics, but it would take a lot of work to implement.

Example: Necromancer who uses his life-force to summon a Demon or turn into a Skeletal Form.

The character feels and plays different, and that change is visible to other players. It isn’t just a new trait that you may or may not use. It doesn’t just encourage new builds, it encourages new playstyles. Existing traits like: Unyielding Blast Life Blast pierces and causes vulnerability could have a second description added: Unyielding Blast Your summoned Demon’s Morgrath’s Flame grants Stability to nearby allies. The other F commands could be used to trigger specific abilities or control it like a Ranger’s Pet. Death Shroud provides a defensive life-bar, whereas the summoned Demon might be far more offensive in nature with burning AoE attacks with the caveat that the necro is left very squishy.

Septemptus.7164:

ColinJohanson.2394:

A lot of the ideas boiled down into variations of one of these two options, and really both have a lot of cool concepts and ideas. Can folks think of anything else that’s a bit more outside the box for something bigger?

My thoughts outside of boxs seems to go mainly for EXPLORATION.

IMAGINE: We get map over Frostgeorge in Living Story? and pact is getting into there and fight off Jormag minions, on the next update we get some bases built in there and for next month story could be frozen as Pact gathers resources (or some little tweaks planed) and at that time we can go look for some frozen masters, joutan ancient forges from the time they were mighty, we might explore do some mini dungeons, learn some skills or recipes in there. After that we go even deeper into Jormags territory. We might tie some alliances, trade some or our skills (like creating weapons for pact or joutans that would tie our character to work in camp and log out for some time, after that time we could log in). Those skills, weapons etc could be used on that second map to change the map control. You can use some kind of mini WvW on that map and each day we hold some points we progress few steps ahead with front line.

The idea would be to do things various ways, use our skills to gather informations, gather resources use war schematics (WvW) to progress into enemies territories and move front line. In that ares there should be almost no WPs (3-5 per map), there should be more populated with each update by mostly military forces, we should get works in there to help in various ways, but it should be kind of permanent investment. Our actions should move front line by little over time, not like in WvW when zerg comes and crushes as pleased. We should not be able to do it with elder dragon minions. We need to see fortresses being build from the scratch, getting stronger, with more supplies that we get them (like event to get supplies every 2 hours). Our effort should be awarded with fractions progression (after making system that would count actions in LS like that and hearts toward support to selected fractions). With participation our rank should increase (thats a hard part after being just below Trehern) to allow us access to cool ares or more dangerous parts of those new maps (ares where monsters would outlevel you maybe for 1 then 2 levels). Those would also come with better drops and nodes with new kind of materials, non-craftable for us but materials that would be used by Joutans or other special crafters that would make weapons for solders only which would again give us support for fraction (capped weekly).

This idea sounds awesome. That way we can use the LS to gradually explore new areas with a reason and keep them explored, changing the scenery over time with every new release.

The Lost Witch.7601:

Devata.6589:

You don’t really have to prepare. It just comes along the way (like in W:ET)

Have a look at the video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mTl47fsf0E&t=4m30s in the left bottom you see his ‘levels’ 0-4. Two are general based and can every class get, one is class based. You can do something similar in WvW. You play kitten a class or maybe your profession is a class. For example, only a warrior can unlock the treb stuff, a ranger the arrow-card or so meting like that. Then professions would also get a better role.

Anyway, the think is, leveling up is very easy and it’s really not something you need to prepare for, it just happens along the way. (at 4:55 you see him level up one of the general lines)

Hmm, I kind of liked the quick in-game progression of DotA 3.7 (Don’t know exactly how the later iterations like LoL and DotA 2 work, but I guess in a similar fashion)

You would work towards ‘critical’ level (usually at about 6 out of the max of 10 levels, at which you unlocked your ‘ultimate’ skill) and then prepare for a massive siege. The progression was partly done by leveling but also by getting buffs and items.

The difference was that it didn’t really feel like ‘my character’ in the next game though. It was a brand new hero that I’d start out with every game. Oh and the progression was much more impactful of course.

I don’t know if it’d work so well within GW2. But perhaps you can convince me?

A few questions to start with:

• Would you suggest this as a replacement of the WxP system in WvW, or also as a method of progression in PvE? And if so… what would we be progressing? Our stats, or something else?

• How do we go about changing builds, would this reset the progression aswell? So that we can pick a new specialisation to complement our build?

• Would it benefit all characters, or just the one you’ve progressed with? (This may lead to alt-players being at a disadvantage perhaps)

More to come if I can find the time, and in response to your answers.

- Mainly to replace WxP. It could also work in some PvE situations like Fractals but not so much in the overall open world I think. However here I was specifically talking about WvW.
You could unlock specific skills based on your profession (one complain you hear a lot is that people miss roles i GW2. This would help a little with that). The unlocks you can now get in WvW can be used. So you then unlock that but only a warrior can unlock the treb options / unlocks, a ranger can unlock arrow cards and so on. In addition you would also be able to unlock maybe skills or other abilities. For example the ability to see a stealth person or to use an enemy portal. Options are endless really.
After they have retested you might want to go in with another profession. It helps to make content more repayable and make the game more alt-friendly without a big never ending grind to unlock stuff. (Similar things can also work in fractals or even boos fights but I will keep the examples to WvW)

- It’s not so much a build. It’s an unlock (of skills or abilities) and there can be general unlocks and profession / role (you might even be able to pick a specific role in WvW) based unlkittens. You can always go on another profession (or role) to unlock those. So it’s not a build.

- The general unlocks work on all chars (are account-bound) while the profession based should only work on one char or at least all the chars you have with the same role. But you can not unlock a specific lets say thief ability (having +5 supply as an example) and then go in with your warrior and then have that thief unlock. On the warrior you can then only get your treb unlocks because they are for the warriors.

But lets say one of the general unlocks is a permanent speedboost then all your chars will have then until the reset.

To point again to Wolfenstein. In that video you did see 3 bars you could level in. The most left one is based on your role. When moving to another role there will be a bar specific for that role. The other two are general and will be active in whatever role you play without having to unlock them again when you switch roles.

For general PvE I stay on my previous statements that collecting things like mini’s, leveling crafts, farming and so on (see my big 2 comment post about that https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/46#post3468933) should be more a game element to get more horizontal progression in the PvE world.

These temporary unlocks (what is something else as temporary content) really work well in separate ‘instanced’ repayable combat mechanisms like WvW.

VOLKON.1290:

Patrikan Habaton.2548:

VOLKON.1290:

Patrikan Habaton.2548:

There is no way in measuring skill without taking reaction time into consideration.

Ever watch a chess match?

You seem to never watched one or you would know you don’t have unlimited time to decide what you do next. You know why Computer started beating the best chess Players?
Because there is for each combinations on the deck a best way to answer, to be a semi profi you Need to know the best answer to the first 10 moves if you are a profi chess Player you Need to know the best answer for moves for about the 32 moves is it skill? Yeah it is the skill to remember the right moves but if a chessplayer like a gamer has the posibility to look up things it’s meaning less since he could just take a Manual and win ( This is how the Computer wins the chess match against the profi Players:))

You said there was no way to measure skill without taking reaction time into account. There’s no twitch in chess.

Guys? Please chill over the analogy dissections. It’s not getting anywhere, and while chess can always be pointed to as a “pure skill-based game”, it’s very likely not in tune with what everyone here wants to be playing.

Let’s just put one thing out here which can be agreed upon – I’m pretty sure nobody wants “skill gates” to be of a type where their hardware determines their success instead of their skill. And I’m definitely sure none of us want to have to play “I Want To Be The Ghostly Hero” to get some horizontal progression options for skills/abilities.

(Cosmetic rewards are okay.)

ColinJohanson.2394:

Say for example, we decided to allow your profession to gain an additional mastery as Nike and Chuggs in particular discussed above. I think we have a lot of fun ideas in here for the journey unlock specific aspects of that mastery, but what if you first had to unlock the core “mastery” track, which then allowed you collect the smaller components? What kind of experience do you think would be compelling here as an over-all journey?

I’d go with the new story branches unlocking those master tracks. Things like “upper level character enlightenment” are very personal to the character level. I think it would be inappropriate to tie this to server wide events or something else similar. The “collect smaller components” part could be though.

If it’s meant to be a higher tier of skills, it should be also only attainable after demonstrating one’s mastery of previous class abilities. So kind of a challenge run different for each class?

What comes to mind is the chain of missions in GW1’s Crystal Desert meant to ascend a character. A chain of challenges (real challenges) that could be tackled with friends is a compelling way to do this. It means instances however but I don’t know how you can make sure a character proves his mastery of his class without instances since in the open world anybody can be a train passenger at anytime and breeze through the content. What I mean is it’s not because I get gold reward in a successful event that I really proved I’m skillful. It’s still possible to be ran through instances by others but it’s less easy/probable.

The Lost Witch.7601:

But what can we give as a skill based reward that isn’t either:

a) too awesome to lock out for those without the required skills. (Be it strategic, social, linguistical, mathematical, musical, memory or reflex based) For instance, access to Elona would be too awesome.

b) making the economical difference between those with the preferred skills and those without too big. (If skilled players suddenly start earning twice the money, that means that those without those skills will have to pay much more for all the things they would like to get due to inflation)

c) making the game easier for those who are good at it. (Locking combat-improvements behind skill-gates sounds like a terrible idea)

d) locking off player interaction. (If doing things alone is more rewarding than playing in a group… I don’t think that works well for an MMORPG)

e) gating players into groups. (This is what fractals are doing in a way: they seperate the skilled veterans from the newbies with an agony lock.) This makes it harder for guildmembers to play with one another.

f) offending. (Imagine all ‘unskilled’ players having a green aura, while all ‘skilled’ players have a blue one…)

g) infuriating. (RNG coming in to make the difference between the players skilled enough to beat the challenge once or twice, and those who can do it five times a day)

And we’re down to a pretty short list.

Especially if we take into account that hiding skins behind a skill-gate is also slightly problematic:

If we hide too many skins behind skill-gates, then the masses won’t get many skins since there are only so many dev resources. And if they are too awesome… we’re not complying to rule a).

If we hide too few skins behind skill-gates, then all the skilled players get the same thing. And what’s the fun in everyone looking the same? (Though the obsidian armor-masses in GW1 beg to differ I guess.)

Unless… it’s all just to show off your accomplishments.

A title, or a hat/backpiece of some sort? Or a trophy to put next to the fireplace?

At the very least, a harmless achievement would be nice. Perhaps one of those that you cannot see on the list, or that doesn’t give any achievement points… an achievement that is just there to tell you that you’ve accomplished something awesome… but not part of a ‘to do list’.

But from what I hear … the skilled players want more than that. For me it is enough. And all the text before this was just to explain why I think that it should be enough.

I would consider skins to be harmless enough as a reward, this seems to be an issue exclusive to guildwars, a unique skin was always an acceptable reward for completing hard content.
Titles are good and all but, you are limited to one and they add no visual flavor, I often miss what title a person has unless I’m fighting a mesmer.

Your points appear to be getting nearly as hyperbolic as mine (skill locking an entire continent?), I was only ever suggesting skins primarily ( I did suggest non-specific title to new skill unlocks to but that wasn’t a fully fleshed out idea).

on your point about locked skins, we have very few locked skins, fractal skins being the only kittene, Dungeons could be considered a medium one?, other than that people are able to buy all the skins.
We could do with some rare skins in the game, I mean genuinely rare not because you need a ticket from the black lion rare. I would like to see situations where I go “I’ve never seen anyone carry that before” , “Oh wow is that? it is! a holy moon staff only 100 people on our server have those so far, maybe if I work hard enough I might get it some day”

I disagree on your point about skilled players being unable to earn more too but would like that to be treated as separate from my desire for unique skins.
Having to farm for something is always a punishment, getting better or playing actively should naturally reward more, all players can improve over time a skill gate in not forever in most cases.

So one line sum up:
I vote for unique skins gated behind skill content, both group and solo.

Ok sorry all looking to have up to page 46 summarised by the end of tomorrow evening.

The Lost Witch.7601:

Especially if we take into account that hiding skins behind a skill-gate is also slightly problematic:

If we hide too many skins behind skill-gates, then the masses won’t get many skins since there are only so many dev resources. And if they are too awesome… we’re not complying to rule a).

If we hide too few skins behind skill-gates, then all the skilled players get the same thing. And what’s the fun in everyone looking the same? (Though the obsidian armor-masses in GW1 beg to differ I guess.)

Unless… it’s all just to show off your accomplishments.

A title, or a hat/backpiece of some sort? Or a trophy to put next to the fireplace?

At the very least, a harmless achievement would be nice. Perhaps one of those that you cannot see on the list, or that doesn’t give any achievement points… an achievement that is just there to tell you that you’ve accomplished something awesome… but not part of a ‘to do list’.

But from what I hear … the skilled players want more than that. For me it is enough. And all the text before this was just to explain why I think that it should be enough.

I think you mentioned some good Points here. I don’t think a skillchallenge should give you some big ammount of Money personaly. Although I would love to be able to get my ascended armor while playing fractals on the highest scales or at least the AR needed to advance to the next Levels but I guess this geargate topic is offtopic so I leave it.I also don’t think there should be many Skins that can only be aquired like that. I personally remember the first tentaql kill of my Server as well cause they wanted to make it as the first german Server. You are completly right the Joy of the Moment is an achievment, and I just chatted with a friend that came back I played fractals over a year ago, there was some nice moments while playing as well but what I miss is somthing that I will remember those moments also maybe some years from now. So here’s my proposal:

Maybe a big META achievment that holds all sorts of challenges ( It should be really hard to get and maybe not completed until new challenges are released ). You get ap for it maybe only 1 if it harms other Players to much I don’t care. But you have Kind of a checklist what you have done. Than you can get for certain achievments a reward.

- A title ( I think 1 title is ok if you have like the whole achievment or a Special kittene like light up the dark)
- A Skin ( I think might be more difficult to hold the Balance)

If you don’t agree with either of These Idea I have a solution for you.

What if you just get rewards for your home instance?

You don’t have Special Skins that others can’t get for whatever reason.
You don’t have an elitism title.
And you have a hall of fame for yourself like the hall of monuments. I think many People woulnd’t have a Problem if I had a Tentaql trohpy somwhere in my home instance or some Special Fractal capitor on a Podest with a text written. This Fractal Capitor is a reminder that was handed out for all the People that Reached the highest scales of fractals ( scale 80) Before the instabilities hit Fractals.

I mean would that really harm anybody If I just had this fractal carpitor somwhere on a Podest in my home instace ? For mee it would be a nice reward that keeps my memories alive and can be cool to look over. And it woulnd’t be somthing that leads to elitsm ( I don’t assume People will check everyones home instance before they can join a Group)

What do you think of this Idea?

This got me thinking more on the following, some of which I already briefly mentioned in an earlier post:

Journey Challenge:
A mission directs you to an NPC scout (located at the zone’s entrance or one of the camps) to activate this mode. You remain in the open world, but this mode deactivates all waypoints in the zone and gives you several enemies to defeat and/or places to reach for clues, puzzles and the like. If you die, you will respawn at the scout’s location. That would inject some good old fashioned fear of dying into traveling. This Journey Challenge could be linked to a mission to unlock archetypes.

Additionally, this could be available for every zone as a zone completion challenge mode. You will have to discover the entire zone (again ..!), including the waypoint locations (though they are deactivated) to unlock your zone reward: a themed armour set as well as a page with the lore of the zone, added to your personal ingame Tyria encyclopaedia tab (as mentioned in my earlier post).

Players are rewarded with a title when they complete the Journey Challenges for a group of zones: all Kryta maps, all Ascalon maps, etc. A further title could be rewarded for completing all the zone challenges in the world.

So in short, Journey Challenges:

• Get players into the world and encourage them to traverse the various gorgeous environments of Tyria.
• Instil a sense of progression easily tracked by the already existing map completion meter, and offer a tangible reward for completing it.
• Expand on the Guild Wars 2 core gameplay elements with minimal alterations. The challenges are comprised of elements already in the game, with the exception of UI elements, rewards and deactivation of waypoints on a character basis.
• Could be challenging and potentially time-consuming depending on player skill, but very doable.
• Are fairly long term and give players something substantial to do (unless you’re super hardcore of course).
• Are entirely optional, but give access to titles, fashion and lore.

Sorry, I can’t keep up with this thread. I just jump in every so often, and then jump out.

On the subject of subclasses, I really feel like in this system class specialization is accomplished with weapon skills. Aesthetically it would be nice to say, “I’m an assassin thief” or “I’m a templar guardian,” but as far as mechanics and playstyle, that role is determined by weapon and utility choices. I feel like adding more weapons would be a better way to add diversity rather than subclasses.

A hammer warrior is a different beast from a greatsword or rifle warrior or from a hammer guardian. I wonder how subclasses would be any more of or a different distinction, other than being a more permanent choice. I would think that the better design process at this point would be to look at each class and decide what it is missing and build from there, either with new utilities, traits or weapons. I think there are so many good (and bad) weapons that could be added that would accomplish the task.

darkfiremew.5937:

This idea sounds awesome. That way we can use the LS to gradually explore new areas with a reason and keep them explored, changing the scenery over time with every new release.

That sounds somewhat what I was hoping to have out of the Living Story. Colin, Chris, please jot this stuff down for that topic too

Malchior.5042:

To be honest, I have no idea how sub-classes or elite classes would work for “Horizontal Progression.”

• If it’s just 1 subclass per class, then it will feel vertical because it’s one linear path that while it may not be required, player psychology considers it as “more powerful” or “better.”

• Basically, even if the intent would be “Horizontal Progression,” the player mentality and design would point to Vertical Progression.

How would you get around this mentality issue? I’ve been thinking on it, and the answer which keeps coming to mind is:

“No matter what the developers do at this stage, it’s going to be cited as an example as ‘yet more necessary grind into vertical progression’ by a non-zero number of people.”

• If it’s even just 2-3 subclasses per class, then that’s 16-24 NEW CLASSES Arenanet has to design, which even if done at a basic level, would take an enormous amount of time!

Not necessarily. One of the reasons I picked up with naming them after Insignia sets in my posts is simply because that lends a direction to each thing. They were part of the horizontal gear progression in GW1 – you only had so many spaces to apply bonuses which were sometimes situational at best, but none were explicitly better than others.

So go back, pick up the document about the Insignia and dust it off, start looking at them and figuring out where you can work with them among the eight classes we have now. Extrapolate them into a philosophy, for instance:

- “Lieutenant’s shortened hex duration, so let’s put this into a Guardian subclass which can promote condition-curing with benefits. Treating it like a Virtue which passively reduces the time conditions last but can be activated to clear all conditions from one target ally.”
- “Beastmaster’s gave extra defense while the pet was alive, so let’s make this so Rangers can synergize with their pets more. Maybe remove their F2 trigger and give them a weapon skill which will make the pet attack go off on hit.”
- “Prismatic gave bonuses to Elementalists who didn’t fully specialize in one element, so let’s work it over to offer up effects if your attunements are on cooldown to switch.”

I’m sure there are others people could come up with by looking at them. It’s not easy to balance, but it can be easier to build from because the ideas are already there.

• The only logical way I see of adding Horizontal Progression with regards to improved gameplay (cosmetics/visuals excluded) is to increase versatility and flexibility between the class roles/styles of play and to add new skills, traits, and perhaps even weapons to the existing classes.

That’s sort of what I’ve been suggesting overall, just using this “subclass” idea as a catch-all where it can be stored into without getting made very restrictive about what you can/can’t do.

• For sub-classes, Horizontal Progression doesn’t make sense to me. If sub-classes were to be designed, I’d expect them to be the next baby step of Vertical Progression. This way, they could be given all the flare, new mechanics, new skills, new trait lines, etc…that would make them unique, powerful, and something every player would WANT to achieve for ALL of their characters.

To be honest, I suspect even if it was pure Horizontal Progression, the people expecting Vertical Progression would still see it there. And if you made them like you suggest, it’d immediately set off the people complaining about grind for completion and being “forced” to do it.

I want them powerful but not made necessary because they are so powerful. I want them cool and neat without being pushed to the point where everyone feels they need to have it or else they’re no good.

This is my first post in the forums I believe and I am making it because of how much I have enjoyed reading all of your ideas and hope I can contribute to the discussion even in a small way.

I was thinking about the acquisition side of things, specifically the mission based ones revolving either around the orders or a kind of personal quest line to unlock/acquire the desired step in the progression.

I think player triggered dynamic events for single steps in the process of the unlocking could be one option.

DiogoSilva mentioned this in his mini-dungeons post except I am thinking the player currently pursuing mastery etc. would be the Only trigger as opposed to it being a timed event, or the result of an open dynamic event chain. To me, making it something more personal in scale.

As an example:
A character could receive notice of a dangerous risen enemy that has popped up in the Maguma Jungle and the Vigil has asked the Character, as a champion of the order, to go deal with it.

When the player arrives in the area of the report the player would specifically choose to trigger the event. It would be an open event in which other players in the area would receive a dynamic event notice for and can participate in.
The player would receive a completion for the, for lack of a better term, step and the other players participating could receive the usual dynamic event completion rewards.

To try and explain a little further; I was thinking of this simply as a mechanic in how the player could pursue the horizontal progression. I was not thinking of the full system of mechanics that would could be needed or used. I saw a few posts about the different variety of mission types and themes that the player could be required to complete to unlock skills, weapons, traits, armors etc. and I think this could be One way of doing those missions. It might not be for each step, but maybe as the culmination/end of a number of prior steps or the result of meeting certain conditions. One tool in the box so to speak.

The “player events” could not be limited to just Kill X creatures or kill Veteran Y but could use the exiting dynamic event styles such as escorts, collection, scavenger hunts etc. or possibly introduce new ones/hybrids such as a race between an NPC. Through gangs of enemies or not, possibly with a timer: “stop him before he reaches the ship or we’re sunk!”

Players participating in the “player event” could also receive some kind of reward relating to the horizontal progression the triggering player is working on. If for example all the steps are linear they could receive partial credit for that step, or perhaps unlock it for themselves. The dynamic event UI notice could also be updated to so say something to the effect of “CHARACTER NAME is fighting for their life – help them!”

Participation and completion of the player triggered events could also be used as a way to communicate to other players the existence of the horizontal progression that is available them in the future through the completion text. In the case of the Master suggestion, when the player receives their completion notice the text could read “You helped TRIGGERING PLAYER NAME defeat Oogalook The Wrathful and learn their prestige skill” or something to that effect.

One of the reasons this appeals to me is that it gets people, out in the world participating and working together which is one of my favorite things about GW2 and I myself would enjoy seeing that in the horizontal progression. It also has the feel of me affecting the world a little more in that I am making the event happen rather than me responding to the events of the world.

I don’t know what technical limitations this would come up against, or what ramifications this might result in play-wise for all players in the zones, but wanted to try and contribute.

Dreaude.9205:

This is my first post in the forums I believe and I am making it because of how much I have enjoyed reading all of your ideas and hope I can contribute to the discussion even in a small way.

I was thinking about the acquisition side of things, specifically the mission based ones revolving either around the orders or a kind of personal quest line to unlock/acquire the desired step in the progression.

I think player triggered dynamic events for single steps in the process of the unlocking could be one option.

DiogoSilva mentioned this in his mini-dungeons post except I am thinking the player currently pursuing mastery etc. would be the Only trigger as opposed to it being a timed event, or the result of an open dynamic event chain. To me, making it something more personal in scale.

As an example:
A character could receive notice of a dangerous risen enemy that has popped up in the Maguma Jungle and the Vigil has asked the Character, as a champion of the order, to go deal with it.

When the player arrives in the area of the report the player would specifically choose to trigger the event. It would be an open event in which other players in the area would receive a dynamic event notice for and can participate in.
The player would receive a completion for the, for lack of a better term, step and the other players participating could receive the usual dynamic event completion rewards.

To try and explain a little further; I was thinking of this simply as a mechanic in how the player could pursue the horizontal progression. I was not thinking of the full system of mechanics that would could be needed or used. I saw a few posts about the different variety of mission types and themes that the player could be required to complete to unlock skills, weapons, traits, armors etc. and I think this could be One way of doing those missions. It might not be for each step, but maybe as the culmination/end of a number of prior steps or the result of meeting certain conditions. One tool in the box so to speak.

The “player events” could not be limited to just Kill X creatures or kill Veteran Y but could use the exiting dynamic event styles such as escorts, collection, scavenger hunts etc. or possibly introduce new ones/hybrids such as a race between an NPC. Through gangs of enemies or not, possibly with a timer: “stop him before he reaches the ship or we’re sunk!”

Players participating in the “player event” could also receive some kind of reward relating to the horizontal progression the triggering player is working on. If for example all the steps are linear they could receive partial credit for that step, or perhaps unlock it for themselves. The dynamic event UI notice could also be updated to so say something to the effect of “CHARACTER NAME is fighting for their life – help them!”

Participation and completion of the player triggered events could also be used as a way to communicate to other players the existence of the horizontal progression that is available them in the future through the completion text. In the case of the Master suggestion, when the player receives their completion notice the text could read “You helped TRIGGERING PLAYER NAME defeat Oogalook The Wrathful and learn their prestige skill” or something to that effect.

One of the reasons this appeals to me is that it gets people, out in the world participating and working together which is one of my favorite things about GW2 and I myself would enjoy seeing that in the horizontal progression. It also has the feel of me affecting the world a little more in that I am making the event happen rather than me responding to the events of the world.

I don’t know what technical limitations this would come up against, or what ramifications this might result in play-wise for all players in the zones, but wanted to try and contribute.

I am pressed for time so I just want to say I really really like this

Patrikan Habaton.2548:

If you don’t agree with either of These Idea I have a solution for you.

What if you just get rewards for your home instance?

I think this is a highly underutilized part of five cities and while the team seems to know it (adding neat trophies of sorts to them via the Living Story achievements) they don’t have a lot to put in.

What about taking the bits people mentioned for personal house customization or decoration and it was possible to use them to improve the home instance? How about allowing the vendors there to stock certain items by selling them off to them . . . like “you sold me these Orrian weapons, I took one off to some weaponsmiths I know and had it cleaned up, how do you like this new look for it?” and now you can have a new weapon model.

Or selling things to the armorsmith in the human and he one time waves you over and goes “you know all that pirate gear you were dumping on me? Yeah I didn’t know what to do with it either but then I had a visitor who told me this story about the legendary corsairs and I just had to commemorate it in these new styles” . . . and you can buy armor models based off the pirate gear but with something different on it, dare I say some Elonian flair?

And of course, the option of telling the weaponsmith/armorsmith to “just keep this handy” and you get a transmutation item you can buy at any time to transmute your weapon/armor appearance on the vendors.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

VOLKON.1290:

Patrikan Habaton.2548:

VOLKON.1290:

Patrikan Habaton.2548:

There is no way in measuring skill without taking reaction time into consideration.

Ever watch a chess match?

You seem to never watched one or you would know you don’t have unlimited time to decide what you do next. You know why Computer started beating the best chess Players?
Because there is for each combinations on the deck a best way to answer, to be a semi profi you Need to know the best answer to the first 10 moves if you are a profi chess Player you Need to know the best answer for moves for about the 32 moves is it skill? Yeah it is the skill to remember the right moves but if a chessplayer like a gamer has the posibility to look up things it’s meaning less since he could just take a Manual and win ( This is how the Computer wins the chess match against the profi Players:))

You said there was no way to measure skill without taking reaction time into account. There’s no twitch in chess.

Guys? Please chill over the analogy dissections. It’s not getting anywhere, and while chess can always be pointed to as a “pure skill-based game”, it’s very likely not in tune with what everyone here wants to be playing.

Let’s just put one thing out here which can be agreed upon – I’m pretty sure nobody wants “skill gates” to be of a type where their hardware determines their success instead of their skill. And I’m definitely sure none of us want to have to play “I Want To Be The Ghostly Hero” to get some horizontal progression options for skills/abilities.

(Cosmetic rewards are okay.)

Let me say something about this. To make a game more skill-based requires 2 or 3 elements.

1 Very good AI. Don’t make a boss stronger by giving him more HP or damage or some by giving him some ‘tricks’ but by making him smarter, so a better AI. This however is also the hardest solution.

2 Add randomness to it (so also randomness in the AI). As an example I will not take AI but a JP. Once you master a JP it becomes a trick but what if you have to jump on moving stones however the movement, speed and so on are completely random. Then it becomes really a skill thing especially to do it multiple times. Only thing to be careful of then is that the randomness does not make it impossible in some situations meaning it becomes more luck then skill. But when done correctly also in AI then randomness is very important for requiring skills, else stuff becomes a trick you need to learn.

3 Roles.. If you want to also take the team-work skill into the overall picture that is. Then very specific roles that need each other to survive and reach the goal is a must. Not needed when you do not take the team-work skill into consideration.

Gaebriel.3754:

This got me thinking more on the following, some of which I already briefly mentioned in an earlier post:

(Snipped for brevity)

Interesting, we’re looking at solo instance? Also the idea of a journal to pick up lore or such was floated around during pre-beta I think but not included . . . I figured due to time constraints.

Might make a neat mechanic to include for people to just get out and see the world all over again as more than potential farming places.

adagiophoto.4512:

Sorry, I can’t keep up with this thread. I just jump in every so often, and then jump out.

On the subject of subclasses, I really feel like in this system class specialization is accomplished with weapon skills. Aesthetically it would be nice to say, “I’m an assassin thief” or “I’m a templar guardian,” but as far as mechanics and playstyle, that role is determined by weapon and utility choices. I feel like adding more weapons would be a better way to add diversity rather than subclasses.

A hammer warrior is a different beast from a greatsword or rifle warrior or from a hammer guardian. I wonder how subclasses would be any more of or a different distinction, other than being a more permanent choice. I would think that the better design process at this point would be to look at each class and decide what it is missing and build from there, either with new utilities, traits or weapons. I think there are so many good (and bad) weapons that could be added that would accomplish the task.

I’d like to give an example of subclasses via weapons. This is an imperfect example, granted but I think it illustrates the point and gives room to think about it.

In a lot of class suggestion threads, people ask for a druid class. Players then proceed to tell them to play a ranger or a norn elementalist. If we were to add a weapon to the ranger class that would make the ranger play more like a druid, it would give more options to the players who want that playstyle or aesthetic. For example, give the ranger a staff (not melee). The skills on that weapon would consist of nature-style magics. Combine that with the right set of traits and utilities and then you would have a good druid-like class. Though, ANet would have to make an armor set or two that would aesthetically support that character type.

Just a thought.

@Tobias: Ah no, I didn’t mean solo instances, though that could be interesting too!

What I meant was to be able to toggle a Zone Challenge mode at an NPC, which will then remove all waypoint access for that character only. You would still be in the open world, it’s just an additional self-imposed challenge for fame, glory and fashion. You could of course toggle it on/off at will, at the Challenge NPC.

Devata.6589:

Let me say something about this. To make a game more skill-based requires 2 or 3 elements.

1 Very good AI. Don’t make a boss stronger by giving him more HP or damage or some by giving him some ‘tricks’ but by making him smarter, so a better AI. This however is also the hardest solution.

I think it’s also the one which is more likely to have errors crop up or have the AI ‘break down’ . . . keeping this in mind for future releases down the line is the best course right now because they have more time to be tested than something being patched to live on existing things.

2 Add randomness to it (so also randomness in the AI). As en example I will not take AI but a JP. Once you master a JP it becomes a trick but what if you have to jump on moving stones however the movement, speed and so on are completely random. Then it becomes really a skill thing especially to do it multiple times. Only thing to be careful of then is that the randomness does not make it impossible in some situations meaning it becomes more luck then skill. But when done correctly also in AI then randomness is very important for kills, else stuff becomes a trick you need to learn.

I’d say with regards to jumping puzzles, the idea someone mentioned of adding “gambits” of sorts . . . “now do the jumping puzzle as a charr”, “your abilities are now locked”, sort of thing.

3 Roles.. If you want to also take the team-work skill into the overall picture that is. Then very specific roles that need each other to survive and reach the goal is a must. Not needed when you do not take the team-work skill into consideration.

There was that in Urgoz’s Warren where there was one room you absolutely needed Necrotic Traversal or similar skills to proceed through. I wasn’t very fond of the idea then and still am not now . . .

Weapon Unlocks
When a new weapon for your profession is introduced into the game there will be two ways to unlock it. In PvE you will receive a mail in game with an item. The item tool tip and the mail both inform you to take it to x dungeon or zone and activate it. When the item is activated an event spawns and the new weapon spawns as a bundle. The encounter has 3-5 phases as you enter each on the next skill on the weapon is unlocked. The first time you complete the encounter you are awarded with the ability to use the related weapon. Helping other players complete the event awards significant amounts of karma.

Unlocking the weapon in WvW will be very different. As you complete DEs in WvW you will be awarded weapon Fragments. These fragments can be brought to a keep lord and traded for access to the new weapon.

The weapon will be unlocked in SPvP immediately.

Skill Hunting

To gain new skills I like the idea of tying skill books to champions that relate to the skill. If you are human and you want asura racial skills you will need to hunt down inquest champions. If you want Norn racial skills kill son of svanir champs etc. Necromancer skill books would drop from undead and ghostly champs, Warrior books from large monster champs etc. Books would be account bound and tied to a specific skill. You can turn unneeded skill books in for karma or scraps of knowledge two scraps can be combined into a scroll of knowledge. Five scraps can be combined with a philosopher’s stone crystalline dust and a scroll of knowledge to make a tome of knowledge. It would also be interesting if scraps of knowledge could be gained from exploration chests like those in JPs and the like.

In WvW utility/healing skill books would drop off of tower lords while elite skills would drop off keep lords.

Secondary Professions and Decks

The more I read the sub-class systems the more they seem like interesting ways to get a secondary profession system back into GW. After a year of playing GW2 I feel that it would make a lot of sense to bring the GW1 concept of secondary professions to GW2. Secondary professions would unlock utility and elite skills from the secondary profession, but not the core mechanic, weapons, traits, or healing skills. Skills that exploit/recharge the core mechanic of a class would have to be either not available to secondary professions or adjusted to work with each profession’s core mechanic.

Rangers would be an exception. All secondary rangers could choose 1 pet to have out. Secondary rangers could not pet swap and they would have no direct control over the pet like necro minions. To unlock a secondary profession you would have to speak with a trainer for that profession and spend 50 skill points. You would then receive a mission to defeat a champion of that profession. )Liadri for necros, Anisse for mesmers, various members of Destinies edge etc. Trahern for necromezmardians). Once unlocked you can have the trainer remove your secondary prof at any time. You can unlock all the secondary profs and switch between them for a nominal fee similar to respecing.

To encourage players to mix things up Anet could use the deck system I described earlier;
@Orpheal Would a deck system that unlocks unique profession specific appearance items by using the ‘deck’ to complete content fulfil your idea of the sub-class? This does not require the addition of sub classes per se but creates recommended builds that when a player selects the deck it will change their skill bar and spend their trait points as well as recommend the optimal stats/sigils/runes. By completing content with the Deck equipped your xp gained would work towards unlocking unique cosmetic items. A necromancer who uses the corruptor ‘deck’ would unlock armor that leaves behind poison pool footsteps while a lich deck causes the character to gain a spectral sheen. As new skills and weapons become available new decks would incentivize players to try the new skills/weapons with their characters.

This system could start with some of the most popular builds rewarding players who have been using them as well as giving starting players a good goal to work towards. Not only can Anet create decks but they could have yearly contests where the players create and then vote on a new set profession decks.

Gaebriel.3754:

@Tobias: Ah no, I didn’t mean solo instances, though that could be interesting too!

What I meant was to be able to toggle a Zone Challenge mode at an NPC, which will then remove all waypoint access for that character only. You would still be in the open world, it’s just an additional self-imposed challenge for fame, glory and fashion. You could of course toggle it on/off at will, at the Challenge NPC.

Add in being allowed to toggle it off from the death prompt, such as:

“Oh you didn’t make it, one second while I send someone to scoop up your organs.”
“1. Thanks, did they have to hit so hard?” – Respawn at the challenge start.
“2. Oh, no, that’s okay, I’ll just lie here and bleed.?” – End challenge and open the waypoints again.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Gaebriel.3754:

This got me thinking more on the following, some of which I already briefly mentioned in an earlier post:

(Snipped for brevity)

Interesting, we’re looking at solo instance? Also the idea of a journal to pick up lore or such was floated around during pre-beta I think but not included . . . I figured due to time constraints.

Might make a neat mechanic to include for people to just get out and see the world all over again as more than potential farming places.

Well be aware that this is an MMO. Instances for dungeons and raids are fine but I would not put in to much solo stuff. I for one never do the personal story because of that.. When I play an MMO I want that big open world, not a single-player or co-op player game. Thats one of the main reasons GW1 was not my game. It’s already to bad that the world is not one open world but all instanced maps (still hope that can change in a expansion) but adding in more solo instances like the PS would make GW2 less of an MMO.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Patrikan Habaton.2548:

If you don’t agree with either of These Idea I have a solution for you.

What if you just get rewards for your home instance?

I think this is a highly underutilized part of five cities and while the team seems to know it (adding neat trophies of sorts to them via the Living Story achievements) they don’t have a lot to put in.

What about taking the bits people mentioned for personal house customization or decoration and it was possible to use them to improve the home instance? How about allowing the vendors there to stock certain items by selling them off to them . . . like “you sold me these Orrian weapons, I took one off to some weaponsmiths I know and had it cleaned up, how do you like this new look for it?” and now you can have a new weapon model.

Or selling things to the armorsmith in the human and he one time waves you over and goes “you know all that pirate gear you were dumping on me? Yeah I didn’t know what to do with it either but then I had a visitor who told me this story about the legendary corsairs and I just had to commemorate it in these new styles” . . . and you can buy armor models based off the pirate gear but with something different on it, dare I say some Elonian flair?

And of course, the option of telling the weaponsmith/armorsmith to “just keep this handy” and you get a transmutation item you can buy at any time to transmute your weapon/armor appearance on the vendors.

You know what would be perfect for this, housing.

On Skill achievements and skins,
I genuinely don’t understand the opposition to this, I noticed two people mentioned that these skill achievements shouldn’t appear on the achievements list or award AP either?
Unless I have my definition of an achievement horrifically wrong, displaying Skill is a major part of true achievements.

@Devata:
The Zone Challenge that I proposed is totally in the open world, the waypoint deactivation would be for your character only, for a personal challenge. :-)

Conski Deshan.2057:

You know what would be perfect for this, housing.

I know, and I’d find it much easier to build a fresh offshoot.

But I also don’t want to throw home instances out the window entirely, because they really could be so much more utilized as a means of acquiring each character’s ‘personal touch’ to things in ways OTHER than whether or not my Ranger has an orphanage or hospital burned down and the other might as well not exist . . .

On Skill achievements and skins,
I genuinely don’t understand the opposition to this, I noticed two people mentioned that these skill achievements shouldn’t appear on the achievements list or award AP either?
Unless I have my definition of an achievement horrifically wrong, displaying Skill is a major part of true achievements.

They don’t want it to feel like it is required by putting a value on it.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Devata.6589:

Let me say something about this. To make a game more skill-based requires 2 or 3 elements.

1 Very good AI. Don’t make a boss stronger by giving him more HP or damage or some by giving him some ‘tricks’ but by making him smarter, so a better AI. This however is also the hardest solution.

I think it’s also the one which is more likely to have errors crop up or have the AI ‘break down’ . . . keeping this in mind for future releases down the line is the best course right now because they have more time to be tested than something being patched to live on existing things.

2 Add randomness to it (so also randomness in the AI). As en example I will not take AI but a JP. Once you master a JP it becomes a trick but what if you have to jump on moving stones however the movement, speed and so on are completely random. Then it becomes really a skill thing especially to do it multiple times. Only thing to be careful of then is that the randomness does not make it impossible in some situations meaning it becomes more luck then skill. But when done correctly also in AI then randomness is very important for kills, else stuff becomes a trick you need to learn.

I’d say with regards to jumping puzzles, the idea someone mentioned of adding “gambits” of sorts . . . “now do the jumping puzzle as a charr”, “your abilities are now locked”, sort of thing.

3 Roles.. If you want to also take the team-work skill into the overall picture that is. Then very specific roles that need each other to survive and reach the goal is a must. Not needed when you do not take the team-work skill into consideration.

There was that in Urgoz’s Warren where there was one room you absolutely needed Necrotic Traversal or similar skills to proceed through. I wasn’t very fond of the idea then and still am not now . . .

1. Like I said, it’s a good but also the hardest solution.

2. Yeah that would also be a nice addition but still it’s a trick you learn. Multiple tricks but tricks. If you make it more random then it’s never a trick or a list of tricks you had to learn to master it. It will stay a challenge that require skills. Of course you could mix the two but I think the “gambits” would not be able to substitute what randomness will add.

3. While I would not mind that so much there are multiple ways to tackle that. Maybe a necro and a engineer are 2 professions but have the same ‘role’. You would still be needing that role but not that one profession, it can be a necro or an engineer.

Devata.6589:

2. Yeah that would also be a nice addition but still it’s a trick you learn. Multiple tricks but tricks. If you make it more random then it’s never a trick or a list of tricks you had to learn to master it. It will stay a challenge that require skills. Of course you could mix the two but I think the “gambits” would not be able to substitute what randomness will add.

Skill is knowing the tricks and when to apply them. It’s knowing when you see X, then Y is your response unless it’s not applicable, so Z instead. Skill isn’t “oh, you can beat this random combination lock of features, you are the best” . . . otherwise you wouldn’t see the same names near championships time and time again in games where chance takes a part.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Conski Deshan.2057:

You know what would be perfect for this, housing.

I know, and I’d find it much easier to build a fresh offshoot.

But I also don’t want to throw home instances out the window entirely, because they really could be so much more utilized as a means of acquiring each character’s ‘personal touch’ to things in ways OTHER than whether or not my Ranger has an orphanage or hospital burned down and the other might as well not exist . . .

I think leaving your personal instance tied to any story elements is fine and for future ones. But I don’t think they are in the ideal location for customization. They are locked in both location and style which really limits creativity.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

They don’t want it to feel like it is required by putting a value on it.

If people are still throwing around not being able to get everything, or all the AP as an issue, we need to have a serious look at the mentality of the players.
I would counter agrue that if you can obtain everything in an MMO then you have a massive problem, because players won’t stand out , won’t be different, you’ll turn your MMO into a single player game that has multi-player tacked on.

Edit:
Discussing this in one of my guilds at the moment and I though this quote was appropriate,

“and lets be honest, if asking to “play” the content in order to get something is being elitist, then perhaps we should change the whole concept of gaming"

The Mystery of Lazy People

Main issue about brainstorming new activities and Dynamic Events in this game is this: People are lazy. They are greedy. They want to get things (skins, skills, traits, sub professions, titles etc.) easy way, they don’t want to work for it. Yes, it does sound bad, but that is the truth.

Let’s think about: How many Dynamic Events Development team have been added in this game during this living story, what we have in here now? There are quite many of them, I think. And what I have been understood, some of them are still in the game. And how many players have been done them and are still doing them? I bet not so many. How many people are still doing all those Dynamic Events what have been in the game from the start? (I bet, most of those Dynamic Events what have been from the start, and what people are still doing, are part of the Champion train.) The new Dynamic Events and activities are only done when they are giving Achievement points or they are part of some reward in meta achievement. After that they are forgotten.

So this is the biggest issue: How to make these lazy people to want to do those Dynamic Events, and activities what we have been brainstormed in here? How to make these lazy people to want to do those dynamic events, what are already in the game? Should those Dynamic Events always be a part of some map reward system? And reward is something to worth to reach for. It could be a convenient item, luxury good, rarely precursor weapons or tokens to hunt and get with those tokens some luxury goods (account bound), skins (account bound), materials (account bound), people could even change those tokens to the money, like 10 gold / token (this option should be available only once and max token amount is 10 tokens / account, just because of bots). Would this be that kind of system which makes people to do all the dynamic Dynamic Events and activities from the map? And when people have got map reward from all Dynamic Events from the map, system start to count those Dynamic Events again from start and little by little people will get reward again when all Dynamic events from the map are done.

So, first we have to solve The Mystery of The Lazy People , and after that we should start to think new Dynamic Events, activities, titles, sub professions, traits, skills, skins and all other Horizontal progression.

Aye.8392:

Many players have a problem with just one area of the game — jump puzzles for me are very difficult, but for some people with disabilities they are, quite literally, impossible. Make 5 things and require 4 of them — 10 things and require 8 of them — give people one or two outs for the type of game play that they truly do not enjoy.

Yes.

ANet currently does this with dailies and monthlies.

Let me choose the challenges that best fit my enjoyment.

Sinope.5630:

So, first we have to solve The Mystery of The Lazy People , and after that we should start to think new Dynamic Events, activities, titles, sub professions, traits, skills, skins and all other Horizontal progression.

+1 for this statement. The Mystery of The Lazy People

I think it is the problem not only with GW2 but with all MMOs

Why many people download the F2P or B2P games and quit after a few weeks?
- they feel to far away from what they need to get
- they don’t feel it is worth the effort (they have other better things to do)
- they get bored by it (game play, mechanic, graphics, repetitiveness etc)
- they feel they need to pay to be the best and grinding takes too long

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Devata.6589:

2. Yeah that would also be a nice addition but still it’s a trick you learn. Multiple tricks but tricks. If you make it more random then it’s never a trick or a list of tricks you had to learn to master it. It will stay a challenge that require skills. Of course you could mix the two but I think the “gambits” would not be able to substitute what randomness will add.

Skill is knowing the tricks and when to apply them. It’s knowing when you see X, then Y is your response unless it’s not applicable, so Z instead. Skill isn’t “oh, you can beat this random combination lock of features, you are the best” . . . otherwise you wouldn’t see the same names near championships time and time again in games where chance takes a part.

“It’s knowing when you see X, then Y is your response unless it’s not applicable, so Z instead.” Thats exactly what you get with randomness, not with the “gambits”. With the “gambits” you learn to do it once, then you learn to do it again as a char, then you learn to do it without a skill-bar and so on. But reacting on behaviors ‘knowing when you see X, then Y is your response unless it’s not applicable, so Z instead’ is what you get with the randomness.