Guild Wars 2

Hi Chris!

First and foremost I want to thank you for your time in initiating and speaking with us all on this CDI. Character progression is something I’m relatively passionate about in games, and I’ve truly enjoyed reading everyone’s ideas and your responses.

You wanted to move the conversation now to one more focused on Horizontal progression, and this is the topic I came here to discuss. I will not mention ascended gear at all in this post (except for this little snippit) because it has been covered quite thoroughly already (and quite frankly, I personally take little issue with it).

Now on to Horizontal progression:

There are two topics I’d like to talk about that I think are the best ways to expand upon horizontal progression and really toss things up in the meta.

Topic 1: Horizontal Progression in the form of Sub-Classes/Jobs

You’ve stated a few times in a couple different ways that the Anet team has been discussing Horizontal progression in the form of a type of job system or “sub-classes” if you will.

This in my opinion is an excellent idea, and I would love to see something like this implemented in GW2. I think this is one of the best possible ways to expand upon horizontal progression. This is one of the reasons to why I have now participated in this CDI. I want to weigh in on this topic a bit more with my expectations/ideas for a system such as this.

1: Furthar fleshing out the roles of “Control, Damage, Support” for each of the classes

In a lot of interviews with devs before this game came out, it was stated that GW2 wanted to do away with the original holy trinity of MMOs, and replace it with a trinity of Control, Damage, and Support. I feel like in the current meta of the game, this is new trinity is barely existent. Most content is easier the faster you burn something down, so there is a very heavy reliance on DPS (even Tequatle is literally just a 15 minute DPS check with other mechanics thrown in). This is something I would LOVE to see expanded upon in the form of a Sub-class system. New traits, new skills, new passive bonuses that the player has the choice to have active/slotted that can buff one of the three roles. This sort of leads into my second point.

2: New exclusive skills to each job (both weapon, utility, and passive).

This is touched a bit more on the next section, but new exclusive skills would really mix the meta up, and make it feel like No two Warriors/Thieves/Mesmers/etc are the same (which again, makes the game so much more engaging in my opinion)

3: Sub-Class development shouldn’t end with selecting a sub-class

This portion of my opinion might come under fire a bit because a lot of the GW2 community has lot of people don’t want things to feel too grindy (which is a completely fair and valid point). I still think there should be ways developing a sub-class furthar upon selection. A skill tree that uses your skill points would probably not be the way to go on this considering that makes it ALL about grind. Instead, perhaps, your sub-class or job could earn sub-class or job exp based on activities that the job performs well.

For the sake of example, suppose a thief has the Sub-Class “Nightshade” — a support based subclass that focuses on stealthing, healing, and buffing itself and its allies with the sacrifice of some DPS. This player should earn “Nightshade” exp by Stealthing, healing, and buffing it’s allies.

As the Sub-Class/Job increases in level, new passive and slot-able skills become available.

Topic 2: Horizontal Progression in the form of new weapon skills (not new weapons)

Some have mentioned new weapons, which is great and I’d still like to see, but I’m talking about multiple sets of skills for each 1 – 5 slot on each weapon. New sills for each weapon would increase build diversity exponentially, and it would make creating a build so much more engaging. There would be new combos to figure out, more diversity in combat — I’m sure there would be new animations etc. Generally speaking I think this another item for Horizontal progression that would be extremely healthy for the game, and the game’s meta. This can even tie back to sub-classes — certain sub-classes could have some exclusive weapon skills. The mixing and matching of weapon skills would be very engaging.

In Closing

Simply thinking about these sort of things being implemented into GW2 gets me excited — it would certainly make me want to play a lot more.

Also, for all those that took the time to read I want to emphasize that all of this is just my opinion — you may disagree, and I’m perfectly okay with that. If you’d like to expand upon or discount any of my ideas, I will not be offended.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi All,

This is my last day at work before the holiday season and I am going to be very busy!

Once I am on vacation I will have more time to respond and engage.

I am therefore going to postpone the focused discussion on Horizontal Progression until tomorrow. I will catch up post page 36 today (or at least try).

Meanwhile I have a question. This thread is BIG. Would the folks who have already commented on Horizontal want a new thread which is just based on Horizontal or should we just carry on with this thread?

Chris

I vote for splitting the thread.

Khunvyel.3972:

Trying to catch the few things addressed directly at me;

About Order Missions;
I didn’t elaborate on it because of limited character space and wanting to see how people react to it. These missions should be themed accordingly. You get stealth, reconnaissance, sabotage, etc. missions for Whispers, you get up front beating things down BUT ALSO defending & escorting things straight up as Vigil, and you get to research stuff / test stuff / acquire stuff for the previous two as Priory.
These missions should vary between instanced and open world. The open world stuff could easily work like the hearts. Just do your job until a satisfactory bar has been reached. The instanced mode would and should scale up according to the people that are with you on that mission. They don’t need to necessarily be in the same Order, just your team helping you out. Group size scaling should work into the mission objectives.
This opens up more achievement sections, and rewards would be tokens which you can trade in for new skins or existing ones of the Order if you don’t want to spend the gold on those. And all that other good stuff available for Tokens, the game has plenty of possibilities what to do anyway.

Have you been watching Relics of Orr? :P

I talked a bunch about this on the show last night and agree 100% with the idea of order missions. I think it would be a great way to make the personal story less of an isolated chain. I totally agree with getting tokens as well. I would implement it differently by suggesting the missions be scaling open world events built in a similar manner to guild missions. This would be an amazing content update that fits well with the philsophy of the living story and it’s free content updates.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Meanwhile I have a question. This thread is BIG. Would the folks who have already commented on Horizontal want a new thread which is just based on Horizontal or should we just carry on with this thread?

A new thread for horizontal progression would probably make sense, it could theoretically end up even bigger than this one and starting an important subject on pg 40 of a forum thread is prob a bad idea.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

VOLKON.1290:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi All,

This is my last day at work before the holiday season and I am going to be very busy!

Once I am on vacation I will have more time to respond and engage.

I am therefore going to postpone the focused discussion on Horizontal Progression until tomorrow. I will catch up post page 36 today (or at least try).

Meanwhile I have a question. This thread is BIG. Would the folks who have already commented on Horizontal want a new thread which is just based on Horizontal or should we just carry on with this thread?

Regarding my reminders from you about comments on some kind of reward for the Fractal reset, I am still thinking about feelings around it.

Chris

Chris, I believe that horizontal chatter will explode and therefore will be worthy of it’s own thread. I’ll wager 23 copper that it grows larger than this one.

Oof! High roller! Hehe

He’d bet more, but spent it all trying to craft ascended items.

EgonVenkman.1907:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

VOLKON.1290:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi All,

This is my last day at work before the holiday season and I am going to be very busy!

Once I am on vacation I will have more time to respond and engage.

I am therefore going to postpone the focused discussion on Horizontal Progression until tomorrow. I will catch up post page 36 today (or at least try).

Meanwhile I have a question. This thread is BIG. Would the folks who have already commented on Horizontal want a new thread which is just based on Horizontal or should we just carry on with this thread?

Regarding my reminders from you about comments on some kind of reward for the Fractal reset, I am still thinking about feelings around it.

Chris

Chris, I believe that horizontal chatter will explode and therefore will be worthy of it’s own thread. I’ll wager 23 copper that it grows larger than this one.

Oof! High roller! Hehe

He’d bet more, but spent it all trying to craft ascended items.

Good point, we should start a pool then.

A new thread, title change and a TLDR on the first or last page would probably be best.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi All,

This is my last day at work before the holiday season and I am going to be very busy!

Once I am on vacation I will have more time to respond and engage.

I am therefore going to postpone the focused discussion on Horizontal Progression until tomorrow. I will catch up post page 36 today (or at least try).

Meanwhile I have a question. This thread is BIG. Would the folks who have already commented on Horizontal want a new thread which is just based on Horizontal or should we just carry on with this thread?

Regarding my reminders from you about comments on some kind of reward for the Fractal reset, I am still thinking about feelings around it.

Chris

Hi Chris,

I definitely feel a separate thread would be the best way to go. For the handful of players (including myself) who posted about Horizontal Progression before the first half was directed to Ascended Gear, would it be considered reasonable to just encourage original posters to copy/paste their horizontal ideas from this thread into the other one? This might save you or any Anet moderation some time with regards to preserving ideas that originated in this thread for discussion in the other thread.

Thanks, and I can’t wait to get this Horizontal Train rolling!

Malchior Devenholm

This thread is 39 pages already. There’s a new focus to the discussion. → Two good reasons for a new thread.

Looking forward to tomorrow’s discussion in anew thread! Thanks for taking time out of your first day of vacation to hang out with us. My boss wouldn’t get the same out of me, but then I guess there aren’t many places on the internet for stimulating janitorial supply conversation :P

Part 1 – Some thoughts on vertical progression

I’ve been giving a lot of thought about vertical and horizontal progression in the hopes of contributing to this thread. A lot of my thinking has been tied to weapon skins and to ascended weapons to you’ll forgive me, I hope, if some or all of this has been covered before.

At the most basic level, vertical progression in GW2 is fairly limited. We have leveling and acquiring the higher gear tiers. This is the kind of progression that you have for increasing the raw numbers on your character’s stats. In as much as the last leg of vertical progression as the game currently stands is the acquisition of ascended gear for your character(s), there is a big issue where the design goals of the game are directly at odds with encouraging players to progress vertically.

GW2 by design encourages people to have many characters (easy leveling curve, multiple races, multiple stories, skill scrolls, tomes of knowledge, items that skip you through to level 20, shared bank and crafting mats, etc.). Also GW2 devs, by design, continue to work on increasing build diversity (more or less successfully). The outcome of this is that a good chunk of your active player base likely has multiple characters at level 80, each of which can (and probably should) be played differently in PvE, Dungeons, WvW, Fractals etc.

Personally, for most of my characters I have 2-4 full sets of exotic armor that I swap in and out of for different builds and different content. The cost and availability of exotic armor allows me to “cope” woyj buffs and nerfs to classes and resulting changes in the meta.

Not so with ascended gear. There are 17 stat combos for ascended gear, and for most players to maintain the same basic functionality as with exotic weapons and armor at this point the cost is incredibly prohibitive. For one character I would eventually want at least to be able to shift between 3-4 stat combos which means if I wanted to properly gear out a single character in ascended gear it would take me upwards of 3-5 months for the time gates alone and/or cost thousands of gold. Repeat for X characters.

We are always one patch away from “feeling” like a build/stat combo isn’t viable anymore. ANet has repeatedly demonstrated that it isn’t shy about making changes that drastically changes the functionality of certain weapons/utilities, usually changes that are perceived as nerfs.

There is a pretty strong contradiction between the design philosophy encouraging you to have many alts and many play styles, and this element of vertical progression (ascended gear) which explicitly punishes players for doing so.

The result of this situation is that even though I have the resources to craft ascended weapons, I don’t. With the systems that are in place, and the accumulated history of the game thus far, It is impossible for me to make a decision about which character to craft ascended gear for, which stats to pick, which build I should essentially lock myself into. So I just don’t engage.

I feel that the current state of vertical progression has me halted one step below the top because making that last step is associated with so much uncertainty and so much potential time/resources wasted that I simply can’t go there.

It seems like this is a major issue. You probably want all of your player base working toward vertical progression goals, to be encouraged and enthused about pursuing them. But the way ascended gear is setup, it is unavoidable that some or most individuals who have crafted it will be punished by future game changes.

So far just about the only solutions that I’ve come across that would alleviate that are the ascended gear stat-changing ability. This would also help to step in the direction where build templates are a real and viable thing. If this were a solution I would have no hesitation going head long into crafting ascended gear. Systems whereby gear stats are crafted once and then unlocked could also be interesting (several of them have been described).

Other solutions such as increasing drops or alternate routes of availability are only palliative if in the end I will still feel like I need to craft 2-4 full sets of gear for each character (for the characters I currently play that’s at least 24 sets of gear).

Moshari.8570:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi All,

This is my last day at work before the holiday season and I am going to be very busy!

Once I am on vacation I will have more time to respond and engage.

I am therefore going to postpone the focused discussion on Horizontal Progression until tomorrow. I will catch up post page 36 today (or at least try).

Meanwhile I have a question. This thread is BIG. Would the folks who have already commented on Horizontal want a new thread which is just based on Horizontal or should we just carry on with this thread?

Regarding my reminders from you about comments on some kind of reward for the Fractal reset, I am still thinking about feelings around it.

Chris

Yes, a new thread would be beneficial to focus discussion.

I agree. A fresh start for new ideas to spawn.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi All,

This is my last day at work before the holiday season and I am going to be very busy!

Meanwhile I have a question. This thread is BIG. Would the folks who have already commented on Horizontal want a new thread which is just based on Horizontal or should we just carry on with this thread?

Chris

Hi Chris,

I’m for starting a new thread. If we don’t, players who join this thread a week late won’t even know we already covered vertical progression and moved on to horizontal. Even though some players will have to repost their thoughts, I think it’s better to do their opinions justice in a new thread then to leave them buried behind 39 pages.

Part 2 – Horizontal progression – Cosmetic

In my experience, cosmetic horizontal progression is in a similar place as the ascended gear. There have been lots of great skins introduced in the game, but I’ve barely been able to bring myself to use any of them because I would only want to use then on best-in-slot gear, and I haven’t been able to bring myself to craft best in slot gear for the above stated reasons).

Again skin lockers like those that have been suggested elsewhere resolve this issue for me. There could be a moderate cost associated with producing a new duplicate skin if it is judged necessary to tax the players who want use the skins multiple times, but it should be affordable to even casual players. Skins are a great draw to almost all players but players shouldn’t feel punished if their one single use skin was used on a piece of gear that was obsoleted by a patch, or other change.

In my personal experience, the current state of legendries and legendary crafting is fine. Legendary armor, Dyes, Back pieces etc… are all items that could (should?) be pursued and could be very interesting. I strongly feel that the stat-changing ability of current legendries should be transposed to ascended weapons and armor. The only “core” aspect of legendary gear should be the unique look.

Horizontal progression – Weapon skills

Other kinds of horizontal progression should cover skills and skills and utilities acquisition.

When I first heard of the skill system for GW2 (as an avid GW1 player) I never imagined that it would be so static. For instance, I fully expected that although swords would come with 3 skills, that there would be more than 3 “sword” skills with multiple types of swords with different skill combos to be found. I expected some swords would be more offensive and others more defensive.

For example:

• Bonetti’s rapier: (1) Auto attack, (2) Riposte, (3) Bonetti’s defence.
• Gladius: (1) Auto attack, (2) Gash, (3) Hamstring.

Introducing skill variety within weapons could be a great way to introduce build diversity. This seems very long term.

Horizontal Progression – Elite Skills

I also feel that a good avenue for horizontal progression would be to have a long and hard look at Elite skills in GW2.

There is a pretty big difference in philosophy regarding the role of elite skills in GW1 and GW2: GW1 elite skills were build defining and the majority of GW2 elites are not.

GW2 elite skills have such high cooldowns that they are often an afterthought (with some exceptions like war banner in a banner build on warrirors). In general, GW2 elites are in an odd place, they have low uptime, high cooldown, and their impact is debatable across different play types (PvE, PvP, WvW).

It would be nice to see some progression related to class skills and class elites in the following forms:
Class-related personal story elements
Class-related crafting

This would lead to unlocks of new and reworked elites (think necro guild, warrior guild, etc.).

I really would like to see “build-around-me” elites that really help define a build. These elites could have a lower immediate battlefield impact than something like the Guardian tomes, but a more sustained and reliable impact on gameplay.

For example (forgive me if my examples aren’t the best but you’ll get my point):

• A skill like GW1’s broadhead arrow (i.e., a low cooldown source of daze) could open up more controlling builds for rangers.
• Warriors could have elite battle stances that either increase adrenaline gain or reduce the cooldown on certain types of skills.
• Necromancers could have an elite effect similar to aura of the lich (on a signet with with a drawback maybe?) that could really support minion master builds.

I think that there is a lot of potential to be found in elite skills, and in as much as it doesn’t strictly involve a level/stat/gear upgrade I think it’s something that should seriously be considered as a key aspect of horizontal progression.

I’m probably forgetting a few things but I’ll probably end this post here.

Thanks for reading.

Melliarc.5870:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Meanwhile I have a question. This thread is BIG. Would the folks who have already commented on Horizontal want a new thread which is just based on Horizontal or should we just carry on with this thread?

I think that whichever is best for you since you’ll be the ones reading it and compiling the answers.

Inverydeed this. You Mr. Whiteside are the one who is doing the dedicated work of siphoning every single page with hawk’s eyes and every replying meticulously, so whatever gets you more feedback with less time required to do so is better for the greater good. I guess the more specialized a topic is that you’d like to have feedback on, the less offtopic we can get. As long as you provide a very tight frame of what you want us to say, that is

Shongaqu.5279:

Have you been watching Relics of Orr? :P

I’m sorry, what? *reads on*

Okay, no, I don’t have time for podcasts, vlogs, livestreams or any sort of that kind, no matter if it is just audio. Or rather, I would have time for that if certain circumstances could be met, but I wouldn’t talk about these in a public forum.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi All,

This is my last day at work before the holiday season and I am going to be very busy!

Once I am on vacation I will have more time to respond and engage.

I am therefore going to postpone the focused discussion on Horizontal Progression until tomorrow. I will catch up post page 36 today (or at least try).

Meanwhile I have a question. This thread is BIG. Would the folks who have already commented on Horizontal want a new thread which is just based on Horizontal or should we just carry on with this thread?

Regarding my reminders from you about comments on some kind of reward for the Fractal reset, I am still thinking about feelings around it.

Chris

I think we can continue in this thread. And fractal reward? I dont know what but i can suggest how. It would be good to rewad us for every level above 30. So level 42 would get better reward then 35, but also difference in reward for 40 should not be significantly higher then for 39 becouse there is just one level difference. Reward should just naturaly scale with every level.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi All,

This is my last day at work before the holiday season and I am going to be very busy!

Once I am on vacation I will have more time to respond and engage.

I am therefore going to postpone the focused discussion on Horizontal Progression until tomorrow. I will catch up post page 36 today (or at least try).

Meanwhile I have a question. This thread is BIG. Would the folks who have already commented on Horizontal want a new thread which is just based on Horizontal or should we just carry on with this thread?

Regarding my reminders from you about comments on some kind of reward for the Fractal reset, I am still thinking about feelings around it.

Chris

Normally I’d have said keep it here, but being at work right up until Xmas Eve, keeping track on this thread is becoming a nightmare. I’d like to see this thread closed with a summary from yourself of suggestions/proposals etc then a new one on horizontal that will be easier to follow. Or just a part two with a summary thread that highlights the important discussion points in this thread those who haven’t been able to catch up fully.

Have to say, wasn’t expecting to follow this thread, but it has been vastly superior to the Living World one and have especially found Izzy’s background info into your design reasons really interesting to read.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

This is my last day at work before the holiday season and I am going to be very busy!

Once I am on vacation I will have more time to respond and engage.

There’s a joke to be had about the distinct lack of (office) elves in Tyria to hold down the fort over the holiday, but I can’t quite string it together .

Either way, I’m stocking up on egg nog.

I am therefore going to postpone the focused discussion on Horizontal Progression until tomorrow. I will catch up post page 36 today (or at least try).

Your mailbox too, time permitting .

Meanwhile I have a question. This thread is BIG. Would the folks who have already commented on Horizontal want a new thread which is just based on Horizontal or should we just carry on with this thread?

I wish we could link/plug in voice clips from the game on the boards, because there’s a perfect one for my feelings spoken by and Asuran gate operator in Lion’s Arch…

“My Ears! What an intriguing question. I don’t have the faintest idea…”

Even before you mentioned it there’s been a steady trickle of people voicing concern that they might be putting their foot wrong adding to the conversation since they haven’t read the entire thread. Its not that the thread is big, it’s that the thread is becoming scary. Definitely something to discuss in the next ‘evolution’ thread.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi All,

This is my last day at work before the holiday season and I am going to be very busy!

Once I am on vacation I will have more time to respond and engage.

I am therefore going to postpone the focused discussion on Horizontal Progression until tomorrow. I will catch up post page 36 today (or at least try).

Meanwhile I have a question. This thread is BIG. Would the folks who have already commented on Horizontal want a new thread which is just based on Horizontal or should we just carry on with this thread?

Regarding my reminders from you about comments on some kind of reward for the Fractal reset, I am still thinking about feelings around it.

Chris

Yeah, I would really like to see a new thread, with a “Horizontal Progression” title on it. Also, don’t forget to use at least some of your vacation time doing some vacation-y things, Chris.

draxynnic.3719:

Yoh.8469:

So in a sense I would like to see whatever added to focus on bringing up tanking, support, healing and control to be on equal footing as DPS, and scale better in groups.
This might mean having the Holy Trinity in a way return, however it’s not an issue even thou people might think that it is.

There is nothing inherently wrong with healer/tank/dps, it’s only when the entirely of the content is build around only it in mind is when it becomes a problem, and that won’t happen here, they will merely be play styles, as they are now. Just a little more powerful then they are now.

The risk is that you come to the “what isn’t forbidden is mandatory” concept. If you get to the point where classic trinity (or even just the GW1 style DPS-control-heal/protect trinity) is sufficiently more optimised than other team builds, then either the designers have to build encounters with that behaviour in mind, or trinity groups will start walking over content that was intended to be challenging for non-trinity groups. Either way, any group looking to succeed with maximum efficiency and minimum risk will want to go with the trinity party build – it’s just a question of whether this is to trivialise content that was designed for non-trinity groups, or because non-trinity groups have been locked out by encounters that assume the trinity. Either way, the end result becomes the same.

That said, in PvE at least, I do think the current system has gone too far the other way and made DPS the only thing that matters – but I think that’s an issue with encounter design. Unshakeable needs to be replaced with something that, while preventing stunlocking of bosses, doesn’t make using control effects against bosses all but pointless. There need to be more encounters that rely on pressure rather than big hits, allowing pressure mitigation – particularly pressure mitigation over an area, like the staff water elementalist – to be more viable (at the moment, they really aren’t, because most of the time remaining in an area opens you up to take more damage than you recover). In a PvE context, I think these should be the opening steps – before enhancing the control and support we’ve got, remove or mitigate some of the things that make it not worth taking.

Once the encounters are less, let’s call a spade a spade, outright hostile to control and half of the support effects in game, then I think we’d have a better baseline to see how much the non-DPS legs of the trinity can and should be ramped up.

You make a compelling case good sir.
Quite right. I’m not entirely certain that bring up everything else other then DSP wouldn’t in the process make new problems, but it can be inched up over time, and your suggestion is a good a place as any to start, because the over reliance in seemingly all forms of play on DPS really does hurt it in the long run.
It effectively says that all other forms combat are in a way, invalid, and not worth it.

Honestly, GW2 has some of the most restrictive play styles I’ve ever seen in an MMO, and DPS gets so bloody dull after awhile to boot.
Give me healing any day of the week.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi All,

This is my last day at work before the holiday season and I am going to be very busy!

Once I am on vacation I will have more time to respond and engage.

I am therefore going to postpone the focused discussion on Horizontal Progression until tomorrow. I will catch up post page 36 today (or at least try).

Meanwhile I have a question. This thread is BIG. Would the folks who have already commented on Horizontal want a new thread which is just based on Horizontal or should we just carry on with this thread?

Regarding my reminders from you about comments on some kind of reward for the Fractal reset, I am still thinking about feelings around it.

Chris

Yes, although might I suggest that perhaps it be more focused then that.
There seems to be at least three separate discussions going on here as it relates to Horizontal progression.

1) Class balance + addition of new skills/weapons/traits, etc.
2) Ascetic and the addition of new skins + a Wardrobe to collect them.
3) Exterior challenges, dungeons, events, fractals, and so on.

Maybe we should have a thread on each one, one at a time maybe?
It just seems we a all talking pass each other to some extent, the subject seems to be a little too board atm.

In either case, have pleasant holidays.
I wish you well.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi All,

This is my last day at work before the holiday season and I am going to be very busy!

Once I am on vacation I will have more time to respond and engage.

I am therefore going to postpone the focused discussion on Horizontal Progression until tomorrow. I will catch up post page 36 today (or at least try).

Meanwhile I have a question. This thread is BIG. Would the folks who have already commented on Horizontal want a new thread which is just based on Horizontal or should we just carry on with this thread?

Regarding my reminders from you about comments on some kind of reward for the Fractal reset, I am still thinking about feelings around it.

Chris

Please split it up into more focused threads about topics like:

- Sub Classes (something I sadly haven’t heard any special thoughts from you, other than only so far, that this topic makes you excited like a player …)
I personally would like to hear more from you (or the other devs), what their thouhts are about, how you/they could think about making this idea happen.
Would it be something in the direction maybe, kitten i keep on suggesting, with like 3 Subs per Class, or do you personally prefer maybe something else, like only 2 Subs per Class or maybe even more (4?)
I#d appreciate it to hear something more from you and the other devs about this special topics, other than so far only, that it makes you excited … because thats not basically what we wanted to read from you guys…
We, or besser said – I have expect a little bit more than just this to read, because I know fully well, that it is a topic, that makes alot of people very excited and that its something, that lets people brainstorm like crazy because of all the unendless possibilities and all the potential, that lies in something as big as adding Sub Classes to the game.
I can only speak for myself now, but I’d really love to hold a more specialized discussion in an own thread about this, because naturally, it would make all of it alot more overviewable, when there are not countless other discussion topics interfering and crossing over permanently every second to next posting someone makes…

- Ascendent Gear
- Fractals
ect …

FeveredDreamer.2693:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Meanwhile I have a question. This thread is BIG. Would the folks who have already commented on Horizontal want a new thread which is just based on Horizontal or should we just carry on with this thread?

A new thread for horizontal progression would probably make sense, it could theoretically end up even bigger than this one and starting an important subject on pg 40 of a forum thread is prob a bad idea.

I also think a new thread is warranted.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Meanwhile I have a question. This thread is BIG. Would the folks who have already commented on Horizontal want a new thread which is just based on Horizontal or should we just carry on with this thread?

I would say: lets make new one, everyone will do a summary of their thoughts in there and we will start from there.

Mixchimmer.7230:

Hi Chris!

Topic 1: Horizontal Progression in the form of Sub-Classes/Jobs

You’ve stated a few times in a couple different ways that the Anet team has been discussing Horizontal progression in the form of a type of job system or “sub-classes” if you will.

This in my opinion is an excellent idea, and I would love to see something like this implemented in GW2. I think this is one of the best possible ways to expand upon horizontal progression. This is one of the reasons to why I have now participated in this CDI. I want to weigh in on this topic a bit more with my expectations/ideas for a system such as this.

1: Furthar fleshing out the roles of “Control, Damage, Support” for each of the classes

In a lot of interviews with devs before this game came out, it was stated that GW2 wanted to do away with the original holy trinity of MMOs, and replace it with a trinity of Control, Damage, and Support. I feel like in the current meta of the game, this is new trinity is barely existent. Most content is easier the faster you burn something down, so there is a very heavy reliance on DPS (even Tequatle is literally just a 15 minute DPS check with other mechanics thrown in). This is something I would LOVE to see expanded upon in the form of a Sub-class system. New traits, new skills, new passive bonuses that the player has the choice to have active/slotted that can buff one of the three roles. This sort of leads into my second point.

2: New exclusive skills to each job (both weapon, utility, and passive).

This is touched a bit more on the next section, but new exclusive skills would really mix the meta up, and make it feel like No two Warriors/Thieves/Mesmers/etc are the same (which again, makes the game so much more engaging in my opinion)

3: Sub-Class development shouldn’t end with selecting a sub-class

This portion of my opinion might come under fire a bit because a lot of the GW2 community has lot of people don’t want things to feel too grindy (which is a completely fair and valid point). I still think there should be ways developing a sub-class furthar upon selection. A skill tree that uses your skill points would probably not be the way to go on this considering that makes it ALL about grind. Instead, perhaps, your sub-class or job could earn sub-class or job exp based on activities that the job performs well.

For the sake of example, suppose a thief has the Sub-Class “Nightshade” — a support based subclass that focuses on stealthing, healing, and buffing itself and its allies with the sacrifice of some DPS. This player should earn “Nightshade” exp by Stealthing, healing, and buffing it’s allies.

As the Sub-Class/Job increases in level, new passive and slot-able skills become available.

WOW you and me are thinking a like i was talking about this in game about how sub classes can be in guild wars 2. I was thinking about how all the weapons will be available to all classes it got me thinking about the class i currently use. Which is ranger and i thought to myself “huh if ranger had a staff it would have a separate build that is based around spirits and nature magic enhanced even further. perhaps a name for it could be druid or shaman” But yeah so glad someone is thinking of that

EgonVenkman.1907:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

VOLKON.1290:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi All,

This is my last day at work before the holiday season and I am going to be very busy!

Once I am on vacation I will have more time to respond and engage.

I am therefore going to postpone the focused discussion on Horizontal Progression until tomorrow. I will catch up post page 36 today (or at least try).

Meanwhile I have a question. This thread is BIG. Would the folks who have already commented on Horizontal want a new thread which is just based on Horizontal or should we just carry on with this thread?

Regarding my reminders from you about comments on some kind of reward for the Fractal reset, I am still thinking about feelings around it.

Chris

Chris, I believe that horizontal chatter will explode and therefore will be worthy of it’s own thread. I’ll wager 23 copper that it grows larger than this one.

Oof! High roller! Hehe

He’d bet more, but spent it all trying to craft ascended items.

I know how you feel…

Yoh.8469:

The next, and arguably the biggest sticking point for me is build crafting.
This coming from someone who spend many years playing GW1, which was the build crafters wet dream. (or maybe that’s Path of Exile now?)

Unless they’ve changed things since the beta Path of Exile is arguably worse than the ascended gear situation. Respeccing was about as fast as watching paint dry since respec points were rare/expensive. The fastest way to respec was to level another character.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi All,

This is my last day at work before the holiday season and I am going to be very busy!

Once I am on vacation I will have more time to respond and engage.

I am therefore going to postpone the focused discussion on Horizontal Progression until tomorrow. I will catch up post page 36 today (or at least try).

Meanwhile I have a question. This thread is BIG. Would the folks who have already commented on Horizontal want a new thread which is just based on Horizontal or should we just carry on with this thread?

Regarding my reminders from you about comments on some kind of reward for the Fractal reset, I am still thinking about feelings around it.

Chris

If it makes more sense to repost horizontal progression topics in a new thread that’s fine. It seems like some people’s ideas on horizontal progression may have been forgotten or overlooked in the early pages.

Out of left field question:

How many people know that when you want to level a skill from 400 to 500 it costs between a fifth to a third less to do so on Thursdays?

(I ask because I keep seeing what I consider insanely high numbers thrown around for how much it costs. I just leveled my leatherworker to 500 with mats lying around in my bank. …But as a dedicated crafter I also know (nearly) every dirty trick in the book…)

obrien.1470:

Mixchimmer.7230:

Hi Chris!

Topic 1: Horizontal Progression in the form of Sub-Classes/Jobs

You’ve stated a few times in a couple different ways that the Anet team has been discussing Horizontal progression in the form of a type of job system or “sub-classes” if you will.

This in my opinion is an excellent idea, and I would love to see something like this implemented in GW2. I think this is one of the best possible ways to expand upon horizontal progression. This is one of the reasons to why I have now participated in this CDI. I want to weigh in on this topic a bit more with my expectations/ideas for a system such as this.

1: Furthar fleshing out the roles of “Control, Damage, Support” for each of the classes

In a lot of interviews with devs before this game came out, it was stated that GW2 wanted to do away with the original holy trinity of MMOs, and replace it with a trinity of Control, Damage, and Support. I feel like in the current meta of the game, this is new trinity is barely existent. Most content is easier the faster you burn something down, so there is a very heavy reliance on DPS (even Tequatle is literally just a 15 minute DPS check with other mechanics thrown in). This is something I would LOVE to see expanded upon in the form of a Sub-class system. New traits, new skills, new passive bonuses that the player has the choice to have active/slotted that can buff one of the three roles. This sort of leads into my second point.

2: New exclusive skills to each job (both weapon, utility, and passive).

This is touched a bit more on the next section, but new exclusive skills would really mix the meta up, and make it feel like No two Warriors/Thieves/Mesmers/etc are the same (which again, makes the game so much more engaging in my opinion)

3: Sub-Class development shouldn’t end with selecting a sub-class

This portion of my opinion might come under fire a bit because a lot of the GW2 community has lot of people don’t want things to feel too grindy (which is a completely fair and valid point). I still think there should be ways developing a sub-class furthar upon selection. A skill tree that uses your skill points would probably not be the way to go on this considering that makes it ALL about grind. Instead, perhaps, your sub-class or job could earn sub-class or job exp based on activities that the job performs well.

For the sake of example, suppose a thief has the Sub-Class “Nightshade” — a support based subclass that focuses on stealthing, healing, and buffing itself and its allies with the sacrifice of some DPS. This player should earn “Nightshade” exp by Stealthing, healing, and buffing it’s allies.

As the Sub-Class/Job increases in level, new passive and slot-able skills become available.

WOW you and me are thinking a like i was talking about this in game about how sub classes can be in guild wars 2. I was thinking about how all the weapons will be available to all classes it got me thinking about the class i currently use. Which is ranger and i thought to myself “huh if ranger had a staff it would have a separate build that is based around spirits and nature magic enhanced even further. perhaps a name for it could be druid or shaman” But yeah so glad someone is thinking of that

Yes!! This is exactly my line of thinking! I like your example — ranger earns the sub-class of Druid, so he can use staff, has more spell-like abilities and has other bonuses that really change the game-play.

I didn’t mention it, but you bring a good point — sub-classes could have exclusive weapon options. Ranger normally can’t use staff, but if he sub-classes into Druid, he can, which opens up a lot more skills and variety!

I like it a lot

Chris Whiteside.6102:

/snip

Meanwhile I have a question. This thread is BIG. Would the folks who have already commented on Horizontal want a new thread which is just based on Horizontal or should we just carry on with this thread?

/endsnip

Yes, please….

In fact (although I know it may be too late) I personally think this huge mega thread needs to be divided into a few threads…

1. Horizontal progression (involving the current state, suggestions, and thoughts about what HP should be)

2. Vertical Progression (see item 1)

3. Fractals (mostly because Fractals are their own entity as far as I am concerned. There is nothing else in the game like them, and they don’t affect the rest of the game in their mechanics, even though their rewards do.)

I think that it would definitely clear a few things up for those of us who are looking for focused discussions concerning issues that are pertinent to each of us without having to hunt for them through pages of discussions concerning things we have only minor interest in following.

It’s funny, I don’t even play ranger, but I think the druid flavor would be perfect for staff rangers.

Brainstorming some sub-class ideas for the guardian, just for the fun of it:

Guardian

• Knight/ Paladin – Staying close to allies and covering them. Hammer, Mace, Shield. Defensive symbol support. Stronger hammer and shield spirit weapons.
• General – Focused on team mobility and team playing. Staff and something else. Stronger shouts. Stronger virtue’s actives. Stronger shield and bow spirit weapons.
• Smiter/ Punisher/ Judgemaster – Punishing gameplay with retaliation and strong damage support. Greatsword, Scepter + Torch, retaliation buffs, burning.
• Spiritmancer – Uses all spirit weapons. Spirit weapons are tied to virtues. Passive effects that only end when the active effect is triggered.

Ya, I know, most of them can already be acchieved with the correct trait combos…

Which raises a few questions: what can subclasses offer that traits already don’t? Or would they replace them? If so, would people accept possibly more “build restriction” for the sake of flavored subclasses?

EDIT: What if subclasses had their own individual trait trees, even if at a smaller scale?

Nike.2631:

DESSA’S CHAMPIONS: FOR SERVICES RENDERED!
This is a proposal for recognition of the creativity and skill displayed in assisting Dessa’ investigations into the Fractals of the Mist above and beyond what had at first appeared possible.

Hey really appretiate the work done here. Since you got already a very good answer I won’t answer it again. Still I think speaking of AR there need to be Major changes. I think to Hand us out AR infusions would basicaly mean you will need em to advance.
Basicaly I hope that they just remove the fix aplying of AR(Gearchecks) so you can advance again with skill and without all These infusions. If they wanna Keep those gearchecks I think a semi good Solutions is to give us accountbound AR(somehow the same as Magic find) for each instability completed firsttime so that People who completed all previous Fractals always have enough AR to advance. Still I think removing the gearchecks and x0 Levels would be the best solution.

For the one who asked about the Karma I never looked about it but I looked it up for you :

(640 + 8 * Completed difficulty) * (Personal reward level – Completed difficulty) = Karma awarded The (Personal reward level – Completed difficulty) factor is capped at 10.
All bonuses (from achievements, banners etc.) are applied to the Karma reward.

this if Rom the wiki accourding to this: I would get around 10-12k Karma at the end. This is without boosts so with guild boosts Banners ect you might be around 12k for sure no matter what fractal completed. This Means 20* 12k for leveling up again = 240k Karma I already didn’t get. This are about 3*240 Events wich is about Karma awarded in 750 Events completed. Another reason I think a 1 time flat Karma reward would be nice and doesn’t harm anybody:)

Mixchimmer.7230:

obrien.1470:

Mixchimmer.7230:

Hi Chris!

Topic 1: Horizontal Progression in the form of Sub-Classes/Jobs

You’ve stated a few times in a couple different ways that the Anet team has been discussing Horizontal progression in the form of a type of job system or “sub-classes” if you will.

This in my opinion is an excellent idea, and I would love to see something like this implemented in GW2. I think this is one of the best possible ways to expand upon horizontal progression. This is one of the reasons to why I have now participated in this CDI. I want to weigh in on this topic a bit more with my expectations/ideas for a system such as this.

1: Furthar fleshing out the roles of “Control, Damage, Support” for each of the classes

In a lot of interviews with devs before this game came out, it was stated that GW2 wanted to do away with the original holy trinity of MMOs, and replace it with a trinity of Control, Damage, and Support. I feel like in the current meta of the game, this is new trinity is barely existent. Most content is easier the faster you burn something down, so there is a very heavy reliance on DPS (even Tequatle is literally just a 15 minute DPS check with other mechanics thrown in). This is something I would LOVE to see expanded upon in the form of a Sub-class system. New traits, new skills, new passive bonuses that the player has the choice to have active/slotted that can buff one of the three roles. This sort of leads into my second point.

2: New exclusive skills to each job (both weapon, utility, and passive).

This is touched a bit more on the next section, but new exclusive skills would really mix the meta up, and make it feel like No two Warriors/Thieves/Mesmers/etc are the same (which again, makes the game so much more engaging in my opinion)

3: Sub-Class development shouldn’t end with selecting a sub-class

This portion of my opinion might come under fire a bit because a lot of the GW2 community has lot of people don’t want things to feel too grindy (which is a completely fair and valid point). I still think there should be ways developing a sub-class furthar upon selection. A skill tree that uses your skill points would probably not be the way to go on this considering that makes it ALL about grind. Instead, perhaps, your sub-class or job could earn sub-class or job exp based on activities that the job performs well.

For the sake of example, suppose a thief has the Sub-Class “Nightshade” — a support based subclass that focuses on stealthing, healing, and buffing itself and its allies with the sacrifice of some DPS. This player should earn “Nightshade” exp by Stealthing, healing, and buffing it’s allies.

As the Sub-Class/Job increases in level, new passive and slot-able skills become available.

WOW you and me are thinking a like i was talking about this in game about how sub classes can be in guild wars 2. I was thinking about how all the weapons will be available to all classes it got me thinking about the class i currently use. Which is ranger and i thought to myself “huh if ranger had a staff it would have a separate build that is based around spirits and nature magic enhanced even further. perhaps a name for it could be druid or shaman” But yeah so glad someone is thinking of that

Yes!! This is exactly my line of thinking! I like your example — ranger earns the sub-class of Druid, so he can use staff, has more spell-like abilities and has other bonuses that really change the game-play.

I didn’t mention it, but you bring a good point — sub-classes could have exclusive weapon options. Ranger normally can’t use staff, but if he sub-classes into Druid, he can, which opens up a lot more skills and variety!

I like it a lot

Oh yes! i personally think and feel that gw2 is still that pioneering game they always intended to be with more variety it makes the game more fun and exploring new possibilities to enhance your gameplay experience

Dev post recap: part 3

Page 31-39

Earlier recaps:

Dev post recap: part 1

Dev post recap: part 2

General:

Isaiah on ascended runes and sigils

Isaiah on ascended and alt issues

Chris’s final proposal on ascended gear going forward

Dev questions and discussion requests:

Should we make a new thread for horizontal progression?

Devs responding to individual posts:

Isaiah posting two more replies on page 32

Chris may look back at the CDI in the future and let us know how it impacted design

The end of this part of the CDI: Character Progression – Ascended gear:

Chris thanks us for the input and takes the proposal to the team

Since the previous recap we have finetuned Chris’s proposal and had some aftertalk concerning timegating. It is now time to move on to horizontal progression. And that topic may very well get a new thread!

Thanks “The lost witch”, you’re doing great summaries!!

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Thanks “The lost witch”, you’re doing great summaries!!

No problem. This CDI topic is very important to me and there are a lot of good ideas posted in this thread. So I have some very good reasons to try and make this work as well as I can.

I think the way we value the current progression in the game is very hard to get through metrics. Since we may very well be doing things that we really don’t want to do. That means that the forums are probably the best way we currently have to let the devs know what we think about the game. (Maybe polls in the future?)

Getting as many people to share their ideas in this thread as possible would give the dev team a better idea of the overall thoughts about progression than if just a few people are sharing their ideas.

So by making the thread more accessible, I hope to pull more people in and make the outcome of the CDI weigh heavier in the devs discussion of these matters.

Thanks for all the posts so far! They are the fuel to keep me going when compiling these summaries. And a big thanks to the devs for being so active too! I couldn’t do these without their replies (obviously!).

Oh and since your mailbox is full, Chris: I think you could link my summary in the OP. When/if the new horizontal progression thread opens I might start a seperate thread as a CDI navigation system.

(I just don’t know how hard it will be to make a good structure for horizontal progression, which will probably be a much more horizontal discussion aswell.)

The Lost Witch.7601:

I think the way we value the current progression in the game is very hard to get through metrics. Since we may very well be doing things that we really don’t want to do. That means that the forums are probably the best way we currently have to let the devs know what we think about the game. (Maybe polls in the future?)

The Ellen vs Evon model would work for any number of things, by the way… the Arcane Council, for example, could plan to research ways to either 1) make crafting Ascended armor more efficiently, using less materials, or 2) develop a process to take an existing piece of Ascended armor and make a copy suitable for use by other heroes (read: alts) at a substantially lower cost than the original.

It’d be fun to see what the playerbase decides on so many of these issues.

First, I think a new thread for Horizontal Progression is a good idea.

Second, when you start the thread give us a really good definition of horizontal progression as it is understood by you folks.

Hopefully that will help guide the discussion constructively.

Okay, I’ve been chewing on this thought all day. On Ascended Armor gaining stat switching…

What if you increased the drop rate and availability of ascended armor pieces (with no sigils, runes or other upgrades). Then provide a way to merge two pieces of the same type but with different stat sets, creating one piece with the ability to switch between the stats. As the pieces gain more stats to switch between, add a stronger visual effect (perhaps a certain color for each stat set). Guess you could make a mystic forge recipe to merge the pieces, some new gem doodad or modify how the transmutation crystals work.

Anyway, had to get that thought out of my head.

I guess you could do the same thing with ascended weapons too. I’ve just been focused on armor. The main idea is instead of transmuting a bit from one item and a bit from another, ascended items merge to become stronger.

Okay, I’m done for now.

gotkitten ed.5318:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

The ability to change gear stats (Note there is still a lot of discussion about whether people want this or not)

I think this one should stay exclusive to legendaries and people should be able to get the stats they want easier through drops (e.g. let them choose stats AND weapon, because as mentioned above, wrong stats == useless to the player)

errrr no. just no. legendary weapons are ugly.
over priced.
the ability to swap to all stats barely justifies the ugliness and overpriced cost.

the quality of life function of able to swap stats should not be limited to legendary weapons only. ever.

guild wars 2 needs horizontal progression, not vertical progression.
being able to unlock stats & skin to swap for each gear (armor, trinket, weapon) is a good direction.

besides, it is very obvious that there clearly way more people who want gear to be able to swap stats, and not just limited to legendary weapons only.

only those selfish legendary weapon owners thinks that the weapon swapping stats should only be limited to legendary weapons. selfish.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi All,

Here is the next evolution of the original Vertical Progression proposal based on a summary of our discussions:

Regarding Ascended Gear we would like to see more ways to earn it and in terms of drop rates, a higher percentage chance of acquiring them through this method.

A review of current RNG metrics.

The ability to change gear stats (Note there is still a lot of discussion about whether people want this or not)

The ability to build up to Ascended Gear through drops rather than just relying on RNG.

Ascended Gear mats dropping more equally across the game, for example WvW.

No more new Gear tiers that make the existing tiers obsolete.

Additional ways to earn Ascended Gear at accelerated for Alts.

Note this is the formulation of a proposal for discussion. Once the proposal is finalized it will be discussed internally. However there will be no promise of actions or schedule.

Chris

I’m quite disappointed that this proposal does not seem to include other ways of earning the gear other than, generally, via crafting or RNG except for a very vague “more ways to earn it.” As pointed out numerous times in this thread, a decent portion of us hate crafting. Getting the mats easier or allowing more wide spread use of the gear after we’ve crafted it doesn’t really help all that much if the crafting process is the big problem.

Maybe I’m missing something, but I’m still not seeing why we can’t use any or all of the myriad other currencies already in game to purchase the gear. That way we would truly open up the gear to all players, which is how it should be.

Horizontal progression- A new idea about skills
Here’s an idea…

New skills could be built by the player based on mastery of certain subskills (learned from NPCs) combined to create a new skill within the home instance.

Let me give an example….
The player learns fire mastery from a certain NPC in the world and later learns whirling dirvish mastery from a seperate NPC and learns jump mastery from another.. He then goes to his home instance (maybe with a dojo in it or something) combines the subskills (like discovery within crafting) and then gets a “whirling fire tornado from above” skill. Combine them in a different order and get a different skill (possibly)
This would increase exploration throughout the PVE world or dungeons (to get to the NPCs), increase the number of unique skills and provide something else to work toward after you’re level 80.

Hi Chris. Thank you for creating this topic.

First of all, I was completely agaisnt the introduction of Ascended Gear, as I figured that it would lead to some major issues. Sadly, you guys at A-Net just started to acknowledge it now and began asking for feedback and possible changes to the Ascended Gear System.

While i think the current system is on a pretty bad state, regarding aquisition and customization, and fully support most of the ideas people gave in this topic (easier to aquire, changeable stats, …) you, as a developer, have to think that major changes can lead to some major backlash. You’re really walking on thin ice here! Failure to implement changes in a fair way can cost you a big ammount of players. For example:

Ascended Gear is kind of a “Status Item” right now. It shows dedication to the game and huge money investments. Make it much easier/cheaper to get and people who worked hard and paid huge sums of money for it will be kinda kittened! Changeable stats can also make people that bought multiple sets or crafted a Legendary feel ripped off.

I know that you, as a Dev, are probably more aware of this than I am! But, just in case: Find a balance that pleases both sides!

Have a nice day.

Get rid of levels and all will be fine. Levels have no meaning after lvl 30 when you unlock the elite skill. Levels don’t matter as long as we have the downscale system
Levels imply grinding no matter how you look at it.
Levels and level requirements are stopping this game to be apart from the whole mass of MMOs out there.

I stopped playing the game about 3 months ago. I haven’t posted to the forums since, but wanted to log in to contribute to this remarkable thread. My comments are only meant to reflect my observations/opinions.

I really think the game has great potential and gets many things very right (especially all things Asuran), which is why I haven’t completely given up on it yet. I was probably considered a “serious casual” player. I had 1300+ hours spread over 3 fully geared BIS level 80 characters, map completion, dungeon master title, and around 4400 AP. I didn’t have a main and was content to hang out in Rata Sum or Metrica helping guildies or newbies with quests, running dungeons, or soloing champs in Orr. As a former long time Diablo 2 player, I was planning on spending many years doing this and never felt that I needed vertical progression to keep me with the game. In short, I was very satisfied with the state of the game then.

I only started to play GW2 because of the initial marketing messages of no grind, no vertical progression, BIS exotics should be easy to get (and let’s be honest, that is how the game was marketed). I didn’t want the typical MMO experience. When the game changed focus abruptly and added the unnecessary, overly grindy and expensive ascended tier (in my opinion) and the overabundance of time gates, it went from the best gaming experience I had to one of the worst (again, in my opinion). I now no longer had BIS. I had an evergrowing list of tasks that I had to do each day or fall behind with no chance to catch up. And to top it all off, I had to craft (which is something I don’t care for in any game) to get ascended. I really tried to get with the new game direction because I really liked the Asuran immersion, but it was really no fun anymore for me so I just stopped playing.

The point of my post is to say that there have been a lot of great suggestions brought up in this thread (and I’ve read all 39 pages) which has lead to the proposal that Chris said he will discuss internally. If some of these ideas are actually implemented in game in a way that will lessen the impact of ascended gear and time gating, I’ll happily get my Asura out of storage and come back to Tyria.

I’ll be checking back every now and then to see if something substantive comes out of these efforts. I do commend the Chris and the ANET team for reaching out to us like this and am hopeful for the best.

To everyone still playing, I wish you all good game!

Subclasses, I’d have to say, have in the GW context always made me wonder just what they’d do that can’t already be done through trait and weapon selection (in GW2) and/or secondary professions (in GW1). The idea of a druidic ranger, for instance – does it really need any more than having access to druid-flavoured caster weapons and traits that back up the druidic flavour?

On voting: I’d be all for it as long as the voting isn’t mixing up story and mechanics, and is clearly intended primarily as a mechanical vote. The Kiel vs Gnashblade vote, for instance, had a lot of people split between the candidate they’d prefer to see in office and the fractal they’d prefer to see made – I’d prefer not to see such a situation again. Make it clear what the primary purpose of the vote is for, and don’t confuse it with side issues.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Meanwhile I have a question. This thread is BIG. Would the folks who have already commented on Horizontal want a new thread which is just based on Horizontal or should we just carry on with this thread?

Put me in with the people suggesting starting a new thread. This thread is big enough already without containing multiple topics, and it’ll probably be easier for all concerned if each subject had its own thread.

timmyf.1490:

The Ellen vs Evon model would work for any number of things, by the way… the Arcane Council, for example, could plan to research ways to either 1) make crafting Ascended armor more efficiently, using less materials, or 2) develop a process to take an existing piece of Ascended armor and make a copy suitable for use by other heroes (read: alts) at a substantially lower cost than the original.

It’d be fun to see what the playerbase decides on so many of these issues.

It would be a real poll only if you don’t give rewards for the votes. We know how many people voted for Kiel just for the reduced cost on waypoints, and how many voted for Gnashblade only for his fractal…

Nike.2631:

Estriella Faerie.4029:

Hope this answer your question.

((Solemn nod))

Thank you. It does.

Based on what you’ve told me, I think I’m going to have to start radiating my
‘pitchforks and torches’ buff, because if people were reaching those higher levels by skillful, coordinated play those achievements CANNOT be simply erased or forgotten.

In my MMO experience, there is no joy greater than exceeding Developer expectations. When a encounter is introduced amid fanfare of “this fight is so tough only a full party of the best geared, most skillful players can hope to triumph” I IMEDIATELY start thinking about how to pull it off with, oh let’s say half the expected number of players.

Bring. It. On.

To me that sort of thing is the best kind of test of manhood for the hardcore gamer. Who cares about beating an encounter that’s designed to be beaten. I don’t measure my awesome by winning what’s meant to be won, I measure it be how many times I achieve the impossible. Or at least what the Devs thought was impossible .

And how the Devs respond to that is crucial test of their chops too. If they can suck it up and go “Wow, that is amazing. Well done. We’ll step up our game next time and give you a chance to really shine!” You’re looking at a game you hope thrives for years. And if they get huffy that you didn’t bow down and follow the precise script as they intend it, that you leveraged your abilities in a way they just plain forgot about, you’re looking at a game that is on its way down.

While I see the necessity of a new scale for a new system (the fractals the old ranks were earned in simply do not exist anymore, don’t be fooled that the new and old ones share a numbering scheme), and I regret that the changes mean no one else will ever again have the opportunity to test themselves in that fashion, purely horizontal recognition of that skill and effort can be achieved. Achieved gracefully even.

I don’t think the Guildwars Devs are being huffy – signs are they just wanted to add something more rich and engaging rather than being cranky people trampled their expectations, but completely ignoring the prowess that was on display is wrong.

I will be thinking more on this.

I don’t have first hand experience of this so you’ll have to do your own research to check but while what was described may have been how some people did it there were also apparently some less wholesome approach. Getting through it by using a Revive Orb.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi All,

This is my last day at work before the holiday season and I am going to be very busy!

Once I am on vacation I will have more time to respond and engage.

I am therefore going to postpone the focused discussion on Horizontal Progression until tomorrow. I will catch up post page 36 today (or at least try).

Meanwhile I have a question. This thread is BIG. Would the folks who have already commented on Horizontal want a new thread which is just based on Horizontal or should we just carry on with this thread?

Regarding my reminders from you about comments on some kind of reward for the Fractal reset, I am still thinking about feelings around it.

Chris

will provide more details tomorrow.

horizontal progression…

step 1- hire more people (like you did for ls development) to seriously work on professions and combat. one of those people hired should be familiar with coh so they can help show you all what far superior character, ability, combat, progression… systems look like.

step 2- start by doing what I suggested earlier for horizontal progression.

step 3- open test server.

step 4- profit from long term retention and earn the respect of players who value quality profession and combat systems.