Guild Wars 2

Nike.2631:

Going back to your “floppy” idea…

If the Mistlock Observatory were expanded or a new small, misty, mysterious bit of fantastical landmass were added (say, about the size of the sPvP training area) with slightly mobile “fractures” that you could identify and then use to enter the exact fractal of your choosing, you could acquire some sort of progress credits used to buy entry into a boss fractal for the big loot. When you have a complete floppy that has been run through ALL the fractals at least once, you can turn it in for a choice of the top tier rewards or maybe a huge infusion of fractal relics (like 800 plus a bonus based on the average difficulty level of your set)

You let people just intent on their daily pick their pieces – much smaller, discrete pieces that can be mix-and-matched over time making the single-sitting commitment smaller.

But to get the good stuff, you have to run them all at least once.

This way the Floppy could be used for a whole different thing. Scraping the whole anti-rolling thing. This could be used as you stated for rewards. In a way kind of like something that would record your progress as you go though fractals, but it wouldn’t do anything other than record it. Once the Floppy was filled, you turn it for rewards.

This is the idea I can stand behind. Given it would be RNG based because of nature of fractals coming up, but it would also give people initiative to roll for something other than Swamps. And it would be completely and utterly optional. Which gives people more options rather than taking them away. If something like this would be implemented, I’d be excited!

Also how many Floppys can we carry at once? Would they be account bound? Would they be soulbound to one character? Can we have more than one Floppy at the time? Would they take up inventory space or could they be somehow implemented into UI, where it would work like an in-game BINGO? Those are all questions that come to my mind.

Personally I’d be excited for a BINGO kind of thing where you get one ticket per account, and you can’t get another one till you fill the one you have. As long as the rewards are awesome, I’m all up for it
:D

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Cool because I have this dream whereby one day we get to the point in the CDI where our mutual trust as community and developer is so strong that my voice is no longer perceived as being any ‘louder’ than anyone elses.

That is my dream (-:

Getting teased IS being part of the gang. Count it as win we don’t fall back on formal language and fear of offending you. Much.

((And actually I was unclear – when I said “Woohoo! New Content ” I meant I was happy to see you as just another player casting a ‘vote’ for new content, not “Confirmed: new fractals”. However, the inadvertent joke may be funnier ))

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Just a quick note to let you know i am up to date.

I am assuming that you all feel that for example a Dredge rework is higher priority than say a rework to rolling?

Chris

Absolutely. The dredge isn’t bad at low scales, but that clown car becomes an absolute pain as it scales up to the point that with some groups you might be better quitting and starting over!

Compared to that, having the reduced variety that is a result of rolling is a dysfunction that should probably be addressed. But it is not one that really keeps anyone from enjoying Fractals.

timmyf.1490:

Romo.3709:

I, myself, keep forgetting that you guys are in fact players as well. With things you like and dislike about the game. Things you’re passionate about and things you really couldn’t care for less. It’s nice to know that rather than just designing fractals, you guys actually play them as well. Which helps a ten-fold in understanding the frustrations, accomplishments and rewards we all encounter.

I hope this doesn’t come off as Mr. Creepy Stalker or anything, but whenever I see somebody with the Anet badge in-game, I’ll add them to my friends list. You might be surprised at how often they play the game.

There’s a handful of devs on my server (SoR) and most of them play without the Anet badge most of the time I see them running around.

I’ve only seen two devs on my server. Once a week/month in LA. But since LA is no more I haven’t seen either of them since last time I fought Tequatl. Gate of Madness here, so I don’t expect many devs around since we’re mostly PvE server

Regardless, each time I see Wide Charr, I’m sure to /wave his way. Not much expecting a wave back or anything, but more of a “thanks for making this game” kind of thing. And thus I’m on my way.

I’m super late to this CDI, but figured I toss in a crazy idea.
Proposal Overview
Integrate Fractals with the Living Story updates by creating small, possibly temporary fractals relevant to the Living Story itself. A new form of Fractal.

Goal of Proposal
Give new purpose to fractals
Give insight into the thinking behind some of our foes/allies in dark times

Proposal Functionality
The idea is this: Create Fractals that are related to whatever is going on in the current Living Story. For example, what if we were given the chance to play through an important moment in our new allies’ past. See when Rox’s partner was killed, a moment of Braham kicking kitten with Eir and Knut Whitebeard. Or perhaps let us play as Scarlet underlings and get some insight into her insanity and see some behind the scenes of how/why she did some of the things she did.

*Another possibility: Make Fractal instability’s “leak” into the real world in a method similar to the Halloween “door” events. We could have fractal portals pop up on normal maps that you could then go on a hunt for and then tackle something related to that area. For example: There could be one in Kessex Hills that allows you to replay a portion of the Tower of Nightmares. Or one in Cursed Shore that allows us to relive the horror that was the Charr attack on Arah that resulted in the sinking of Orr. (something I’ve always wanted to see)

Associated Risks
-Potentially time consuming
-Requires more manpower then is currently allotted to Living Story updates.

Darmikau.9413:

What if we could send players forward in Fractal time?

I think doing this creates a longetivity expectation. If you can explain the futuristic aspects of the Fractal within the Fractal itself, that’s good. But, with Uncategorized for example, people see an abandoned Rata Sum, speculate that it might be a Rata Sum of the future, and then are stuck waiting for any kind of explanation or in-game event that may never come.

Never do anything relating to “the future” if there’s no guarantee it will ever be explained. Part of players’ issues with the current GW2 story now is that there were open-ended questions left at the end of GW1, almost all of which have yet to be addressed in GW2, in favor of Scarlet and other things.

Causing players to be curious sometimes is good. But you can’t constantly make players curious AND never reward their curiosity or give them answers.

I totally concur with this sentiment. I put up with The Wizard’s Tower as being a thing that will never be explained. I have all these stories swimming in my head about it. Livia picking up the Scepter at the end of EOTN though? That kind of thing not ever being addressed in game is irksome.

Chris,

I had proposed a Future Fractal in here earlier with the hopes that the story could be done as a Living Story update. Something would happen over a two week period and we would have to deal with it and get the story of it. The Fractal would contain offspring of NPCs in the LS. That way you could deliver a story without it impeding the replayability of the Fractal. Maybe offer a book like Marjory’s Journal in the Fractal Lobby so that players that missed the LS would still know what is going on.

The Fractal and story itself should deal with Livia :P Anyways, cheers man! Keep up the hard work!

Nike.2631:

Going back to your “floppy” idea…

If the Mistlock Observatory were expanded or a new small, misty, mysterious bit of fantastical landmass were added (say, about the size of the sPvP training area) with slightly mobile “fractures” that you could identify and then use to enter the exact fractal of your choosing, you could acquire some sort of progress credits used to buy entry into a boss fractal for the big loot. When you have a complete floppy that has been run through ALL the fractals at least once, you can turn it in for a choice of the top tier rewards or maybe a huge infusion of fractal relics (like 800 plus a bonus based on the average difficulty level of your set)

You let people just intent on their daily pick their pieces – much smaller, discrete pieces that can be mix-and-matched over time making the single-sitting commitment smaller.

But to get the good stuff, you have to run them all at least once.

Yeah, this would be nice. (The floppy is reminding me of the GW1 dungeon master guide now, which you could turn in after completing it, but also if you were just over halfway through)

In my mind there could be other instances there as well though. For different group sizes, with different lengths. The possibilities are endless once the structure is in, because of the flexible nature of the mists.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

This particular idea could be done through instability variables and it no where near as much work as creating an explorable version of the fractals (-:

FYI.

Chris

Oh yeah, this was just another thing I wanted to comment on. They were not directly related… though in some way they are…

Rebalancing some bosses to be more or less vulnerable to conditions wouldn’t cause any trouble through an instability. (Instabilities which, I might repeat, I have not reached because AR is preventing me from bringing guildies along at higher level fractals) But other, more extreme diversity in challenges may not function very well in our current system.

Like challenges that require more players. Or challenges that require a very specific approach. Like heavy healing or massive cc. Challenges that require a lot of preparation to make it through. Preparation that we can’t do halfway during fractals because it would take so much time. (Players would just reroll until they had another tier 3 fractal) (For some inspiration here are some examples.)

Now these challenges could be introduced as dungeons, but that wouldn’t allow for the amazing lore-potential of fractals. Where in a flexible explorable fractals of the mist area, instances of all types and sizes could have a home. Oh the potential! (And oh… the amount of work to create! :P)

I haven’t been able to follow this thread in detail. I also, at this point, don’t have a proposal, but a question.

What is the design purpose behind requiring players to do three fractals plus boss in a row in order to get rewards? How does it enhance Fractals to gate rewards behind dungeon roulette?

My question comes from a place of being willing and able to take on challenging content, but not necessarily to commit to the time needed to run through three fractals plus the boss fractal.

Is there a different way that whatever design goal the 3+1 fractal grouping answers could be satisfied?

I suppose there is a proposal in there somewhere, but I don’t know fractals enough to really be able to anticipate problems, and I don’t know why the 3+1 grouping was originally created, so I feel unprepared to put forth a proposal by which those of us who don’t even bother with fractals due to single session time commitment might be able to tackle them one at a time.

Thanks.

The Lost Witch.7601:

Rebalancing some bosses to be more or less vulnerable to conditions wouldn’t cause any trouble through an instability. (Instabilities which, I might repeat, I have not reached because AR is preventing me from bringing guildies along at higher level fractals) But other, more extreme diversity in challenges may not function very well in our current system.

Like spoj said before, the way agony works could make this type of instability a problem. You can’t expect players to have to switch to a different gear to succeed at a specific level, as they then wouldn’t have the required AR to survive agony.

If we had only avoidable agony, then this type of instability would be possible. I personnaly think it could be a nice one, but it can only work if you make it possible to survive the encounters without a big amount of AR.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi Nike,

I am hoping that we can inject more lore and epic moments into the fractals. That we can transport player’s to even more iconic periods of Guild Wars history.

What if we could send players forward in Fractal time?

I am hoping that we can build on the strong foundation that we have with base Fractal mechanics and continue to build challenging encounters through strategic gameplay and strong ‘team’ centric inter-dynamics.

I as a player also hope that we can make fractals more rewarding, especially in regard to ascended acquisition.

I hope this answers some of your questions. Fractals are one of my favorite parts of the game and these are some of my wishes for their evolution.

Chris

Edit: I was also asked what my thoughts on rolling are: As a player i have no issue with that particular system as it currently stands.

I was also asked about Dredge: As a player I would love to see some work done on dredge.

Since many people aren’t satisfied with the Arah story part, would you like the idea of a different fight vs. Zhaitan as boss fractal?

I was practicing my html/js so figured id make a site to make the proposal more visual.

http://ampbucketspace.s3-website-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/

Proposal Overview
seperating fractal difficulty from fractal options/playtypes

Goal of Proposal
In the evolution of fractals, there are many possibilities for gametypes, and specific modes or options, however the current fractal system is linear and ties all changes to level. The problem occurs when new options and content types become further gated behind the ever increasing difficulty.

The goal of this proposal is to keep fractal as a variable difficulty team instance, and structure a scalable system that allows for easy addition of new modes without heavily gating it, or having to take away difficulty progress
Proposal Functionality

• Create a fractal liscence, categorized with various classes, different classes allow you to access different modes, with a shallower progression. New content/modes can be placed into existing liscense classes.

• Split difficulty into a separate category, you can put difficulty on any mode you have earned.
  • difficulty multiplies your reward modifiers for various item/gold drops
  • difficulty is a fairly mechanically generated metric, increased dmg/hp attack speed

• getting a license of a certain class unlocks Fractal Modes
  • modes are where general qualitative differences occur -essentially something new
  • Examples
    • 10+ would be its own mode (the addition of agony and new enemy skills)
    • 20+ would be its own mode (addition of new enemy distributions)
    • instabilities would be its own mode
  • different modes have different reward options, whereas difficulty multiplies your chances at the drops.
  • new mode examples
    • competitive: Fixed fractal with for uniformity in competition/leaderboards
    • survival: how long can you go with no deaths (or possibly full wipe)
    • story: low level mode for story:lore people with lore events
    • explorable: select a fractal, spawns scale to 3 players. primarily for achievements, practice: exploration
    • Chaotic: more random special events, bosses, more varied enemy spawn possibilities

Associated Risks
possibly fracturing the playerbase among many modes, but i would design the modes to hit different demographics, and purposes. However since fractals is primarily instanced, i dont know if this would be a big issue.

May take away incentives for climbing extremely high (no exclusive content) but i dont think the hardcore need/want exclusive content, as long as its hard, and rewarded. (hard modes in GW had better rates, but same drops)

It would be great have a 8 group fractal that would essentially bring back the Underworld, Domain of anguish, Slaver’s Exile and other great endgame type content similar to GW1.

The key things I am talking about are:

1. Hard content that requires coordination from the group — Have situations that require specific actions (combo healing spam, specific build to mitigate temporary dmg, etc)

2. Is not linear – Being able to run around the entire zone and do your own content with a set number of ppl was great. ( I remember doing underworld runs and only focusing on a certain area back in the day.)

Why 8?
Because if it is 5 it’s just going to make people feel like its a regular dungeon.

Why not open zone?
Balancing and setting up game mechanics taking into consideration a zerg of ppl will take away from the sense that it requires too many people to do, that the content is balanced and challenging, etc.

Don’t get me wrong, the Zone Content is great with world bosses but having hard content that requires a larger group to do will unify guilds/groups and increase fun times!

If you think having 8 mans will make it too much like other MMO’s I ask the following:

How many other mmo’s had the feel that underworld, nightfall endgame had where the entire area was explorable and it was endgame content?

This fractal type would not be random and would have harder “zones/areas” tiered.

P.S. If all this was instead done in 5 mans i guess it would be ok :p

Chris Whiteside.6102:

The Lost Witch.7601:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Doing something like you have suggested really comes down to man power and global GW2 development priority.

Chris

But wouldn’t it be absolutely awesome?

Terkov.4138:

Proposal Overview
Rebalance of vitality and toughness of bosses.

Goal of Proposal
- Increasing viablity of condition based builds.
- Increasing build/gear diversity.

Proposal Functionality
Lowering health pool and increasing armor of bosses would encourage players to use condition based builds up to stacking limit before going into full berserker team. Rebalance should be done in a way that’d keep kill times same as they are now for full power oriented team.

Associated Risks
- Going from one extreme into another – too high toughness to vitality ratio could make condition builds too good. It’d be mostly fixed by conditions stacking limit.

I think it would be nice to have a variety of boss fights in this regard. Some where conditions really shine, others where they’re not quite as good.

This particular idea could be done through instability variables and it no where near as much work as creating an explorable version of the fractals (-:

FYI.

Chris

this is partially why i made my sugesstion in my last proposal, while instabilities are offering a new gameplay to make fractals more varied and fun, they are locked behind the level 30 gate, any new instabilities would be locked behind the level 50 gate. As it progresses, it will become really difficult to get new people to want to climb up to 50 to get to the cool new stuff. And if you keep the difficulty curve low, people are losing their ability to select their own difficulty/hardcoreness

one of the reasons i think agony seems more like a grind now, is that whereas before many players kind of settled at a difficulty they liked/didnt hate, now there is a need to climb, at the same time agony is designed to not work well with climbing without repeating old levels. but now its required for new content

Rallar.2986:

It would be great have a 8 group fractal that would essentially bring back the Underworld, Domain of anguish, Slaver’s Exile and other great endgame type content similar to GW1.

The key things I am talking about are:

1. Hard content that requires coordination from the group — Have situations that require specific actions (combo healing spam, specific build to mitigate temporary dmg, etc)

2. Is not linear – Being able to run around the entire zone and do your own content with a set number of ppl was great. ( I remember doing underworld runs and only focusing on a certain area back in the day.)

Why 8?
Because if it is 5 it’s just going to make people feel like its a regular dungeon.

Why not open zone?
Balancing and setting up game mechanics taking into consideration a zerg of ppl will take away from the sense that it requires too many people to do, that the content is balanced and challenging, etc.

Don’t get me wrong, the Zone Content is great with world bosses but having hard content that requires a larger group to do will unify guilds/groups and increase fun times!

If you think having 8 mans will make it too much like other MMO’s I ask the following:

How many other mmo’s had the feel that underworld, nightfall endgame had where the entire area was explorable and it was endgame content?

This fractal type would not be random and would have harder “zones/areas” tiered.

P.S. If all this was instead done in 5 mans i guess it would be ok :p

i honestly feel the larger scale raid like content, might be better in other modes. I think dungeons would better serve it. I too would enjoy the more open explorable dungeons like Underworld, but fractals are usually more compact and focused.

Rallar.2986:

It would be great have a 8 group fractal that would essentially bring back the Underworld, Domain of anguish, Slaver’s Exile and other great endgame type content similar to GW1.

-snip-

The issue here is because fractals as of now are:
– time consuming
– not very rewarding

Therefore finding a 5 man group that is experienced and geared enough is hard as it is. I’m not talking about pugging, because sometimes coordination is not always there. I’m talking about 5 people that know each other that are willing to do fractals as it is for rewards that they are right now.
Making it harder and requiring more coordination will not only turn away the casual players trying to have fun and/or learn fractals, but it will also put a strain on groups that were running fractals for almost a year together. Finding 3 more people to do such long content with and that are also willing to listen and coordinate with you would end up as another one of those wow raids that you spend hour to two hour gathering people rather than hopping in and playing with little time you have your friends for.

I say let’s go the other way. That is allowing to do fractals with less people hence making it more rewarding for doing so. We already have contents that require more and more people to do. 5 is just fine as of right now with people not wanting to go to fractals as it is.

Romo.3709:

Making it harder and requiring more coordination will not only turn away the casual players trying to have fun and/or learn fractals, but it will also put a strain on groups that were running fractals for almost a year together. Finding 3 more people to do such long content with and that are also willing to listen and coordinate with you would end up as another one of those wow raids that you spend hour to two hour gathering people rather than hopping in and playing with little time you have your friends for.

I say let’s go the other way. That is allowing to do fractals with less people hence making it more rewarding for doing so. We already have contents that require more and more people to do. 5 is just fine as of right now with people not wanting to go to fractals as it is.

I don’t believe fractals itself is designed for the casual in mind. I think the intent has been to make content that is challenging and increasing in difficulty. The agony to me acts as a kind of a buffer that literally segregates those unable to do a certain lvl fractal because they haven’t invested that much time and effort into fractals.

Although I am not opposed to having challenging solo content.

Rallar.2986:

Romo.3709:

Making it harder and requiring more coordination will not only turn away the casual players trying to have fun and/or learn fractals, but it will also put a strain on groups that were running fractals for almost a year together. Finding 3 more people to do such long content with and that are also willing to listen and coordinate with you would end up as another one of those wow raids that you spend hour to two hour gathering people rather than hopping in and playing with little time you have your friends for.

I say let’s go the other way. That is allowing to do fractals with less people hence making it more rewarding for doing so. We already have contents that require more and more people to do. 5 is just fine as of right now with people not wanting to go to fractals as it is.

I don’t believe fractals itself is designed for the casual in mind. I think the intent has been to make content that is challenging and increasing in difficulty. The agony to me acts as a kind of a buffer that literally segregates those unable to do a certain lvl fractal because they haven’t invested that much time and effort into fractals.

Although I am not opposed to having challenging solo content.

when you start introducing raids, you cross into a different type of casual, casual with respect to organisation/grouping etc. Theres many who like difficulty, but dont like hassle of getting larger groups organized. after reading his posts, i agree it might be difficult to get more people gathered for these raid like events

Rallar.2986:

I don’t believe fractals itself is designed for the casual in mind. I think the intent has been to make content that is challenging and increasing in difficulty. The agony to me acts as a kind of a buffer that literally segregates those unable to do a certain lvl fractal because they haven’t invested that much time and effort into fractals.

Although I am not opposed to having challenging solo content.

Correct. Being one of the hardest things left in this game, they’re not designed with casuals in mind. The higher levels that is. Lower levels can be done with ease, which we at one point thought they were hard as well.

I’m just completely against an idea of getting a huge group together and willing to work together. Those kind of things take hours to gather a right group. Hours that not many of us have because of full time jobs, families and schools. Five man thing is fine as it is because it practically takes three people that work together and other two even if they’re not willing to play as a team to pass fractals. Gathering eight people would end up being a hassle of waiting around and asking people you know while others that are in your group are loosing interest and quitting before you even go in. We already have raid like contents where you wait around for an hour at the time because u don’t want to loose your spot. Tequatl and Jungle Wurm.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

What if we could send players forward in Fractal time?

steam creature fractal confirmeddddddd
proposal overview:

• players are tasked with preventing the steam mechagate from overwhelming the lake of lamentation
• in the end, were able to stop [some cool steam boss we dont currently have in game] from passing through the steam portal, but the mechagate was still constructed by minions

Hey guys, I thought I might try summarizing the discussion so far, as it’s reached a length that I think makes it tough for people to jump in and contribute. We’ve seen a few “I don’t have time to read this, but here’s my idea [that has already been discussed]” posts so far.

I’m going to do this differently from the link-heavy versions we’ve had others do here and try to summarize the discussion so far. Hopefully some people find this helpful.

Rewards

Rewards have been a heavy topic of discussion, perhaps the most-discussed topic so far. Opinions on rewards vary, but tend to fall into a few core statements that seem to resonate with the community. Overall, Fractal rewards are insufficient compared to rewards in other game types. Suggestions for improving rewards vary, but include: increasing gold, providing other uses for regular and pristine relics, and adding upgradable Fractal armor (beyond just the backpack).

Time Required, Barriers to Entry, AR, and Dredge

One theme we’ve seen come up a lot, in different ways, is that Fractals represent a relatively large investment of time and perhaps gold. Getting started with Fractals can be challenging as there is not necessarily an easy way to learn the encounters due to the randomness of shard choice. Having 4 Fractals at a time can represent a significant amount of gaming for a group and may exclude players who only have an hour or less to play. Progressing deep into Fractals requires Agony Resistance, but that is bound to a character and can make progressing multiple characters through Fractals difficult and expensive. And worst of all, a quick Fractals run can be sidelined by an unlucky Dredge roll which can take many groups twice as long as other Fractals.

Solutions for fixing these problems vary, but include “saving” Fractal progress so single shards can be done at a time, a Practice Mode that allows groups to choose a single Fractal to attempt, some sort of AR-avoidance mechanism as a group buff or bundle, or even account-bound AR.

Dredge has pages of suggested fixes, but most of them center around reducing the total number of mobs, especially in the “clown car” encounter, or removing one of the 4 “parts” to the Fractal: button, hallway, Champ/clown car, final boss.

Rolling For Swamp

The most controversial discussion so far has been on the topic of “rolling” for the Swamp Fractal. There does not appear to be a consensus on this issue – there isn’t even a consensus that rolling is “bad” – apart from variable rewards depending on Fractal difficulty could be a way to reduce rolling. Some players even suggested allowing the group to vote on the Fractal at every stage.

Additional Fractal Content

There has been discussion surrounding adding new Fractals as a way to introduce new lore into the game or revisit unanswered questions. Suggestions for new Fractals have included using alternate versions of GW1 missions or dungeons as well as Fractal versions of events from the three Guild Wars Novels.

This is my own personal view of what people who might not be following closely should know to “catch up” a bit. There were topics discussed which I left out, some on purpose, others by accident, but I still think this is a relatively representative summary.

timmyf.1490:

Solutions for fixing these problems vary, but include “saving” Fractal progress so single shards can be done at a time, a Practice Mode that allows groups to choose a single Fractal to attempt, some sort of AR-avoidance mechanism as a group buff or bundle, or even account-bound AR.

Thanks! This helps me to know that what I was asking has been addressed somewhere in this long thread.

I’m still very interested in hearing someone from ANet explain why they decided to bundle Fractals in groups, as it’s vitally important to any discussion of how to make them more accessible to those unable to do four in a row.

Romo.3709:

We already have raid like contents where you wait around for an hour at the time because u don’t want to loose your spot. Tequatl and Jungle Wurm.

There is quite a big difference between 5 and 100 though.

GW 1’s 6, 8 or even 12 man instances filled with players often enough. (Until very late in the games lifespan) And we didn’t even have an LFG system there.

And while I don’t think that we should include too many large group instances, I think that a few bigger ones would be a nice addition. In our guild I often log on saying: ‘Hey guild, so, who’s up for a dungeon or fractals this evening?’ And then, according to the amount of time players have, we pick an instance. I am quite sure that if we were to have larger instances, we would just do those if we have enough guildmembers online.

Now wether fractals is the best place to introduce these larger instances, probably not in it’s current structure.

As for smaller group content, would you want them to be full fractal length instances? Or shorter ones?

And what if they found a way to make it more rewarding to do the same content in smaller groups? (In GW1 you wouldn’t have to share your loot with the party if you did things on your own, in GW2 loot doesn’t work that way, but I’m sure something could be arranged) Players are already doing this in dungeons through selling partyslots at the endboss. But that’s not a very elegant way to do it.

Edit: Oh and thanks timmyf!

Hello I would like to add a bit to this Discussion

As for Fractals I would like to see a PVE explorable area of Fractals but not as a Giant map but more like the past LW events, the Aeitherblade retreat as it is right now. we can only revisit that piece of content as a Small part in the fractal not as a Whole.

I remember when I first played it in the LW It was very cool I liked mai trin she was an epic boss fight but I can only revisit the content in the fractal as a small part what happened to running the entire dungeon and fighting all the bosses it was cut out because it was to long for a normal fractal just like the Molten alliance one.

doesn’t seem right in my book if new players who are interested in the lore and want to experience it can’t because its a 1 time only deal that you have to be logged on that 2 weeks or you lose out on the content.

I would like to revisit all of the Living story dungeon/events as full content that I can replay when I want that way if I miss out on a few months of GW2 for some reason I can just simply go back and play the content in the fractal instead of the you missed 2 weeks oh well can’t do that again.

I believe this would work well.

as for Fractal Rewards I would like to Choose Ascended Armor Boxes for a full set of Ascended armor it takes literally 300+ gold to craft a full set for 1 toon

Fractals are not the same speed and difficulty. Some effort should be made to balance that. The dredge fractal is specifically awful and needs half its mobs removing.

Camera angles. The poor GW2 cameras angles are exposed in fractals, for example trying to get all of the lava shaman on screen while also watching the burning floor. Fix this throughout the game and specifically for fractals.

Graphics flare. Fractal mobs have animations that need watching but the screen can often dissolve into graphics flare from spell effects. Fix this throughout the game.

‘Rerolling’ fractals. I don’t care much about this but it shows poor design that players are resetting the dungeon constantly until they get the random first fractal they like. Suggested solutions could be to have the specific first fractal for every run that day, or have a shortish standard entry fractal that players won’t want to repeat.

Continuity – I would put the molten end boss always after the molten test facility and Mai Trin always after the aetherblade lair.

Fractal weapons are a horrible reward. They are random so you never get the right one, they are not real usable weapons, but they’re not skins either and still need transmutation stones. So make them into skins and let people have some barter options in the Dessa’s Hub to trade (pristine) relics + a skin for the specific skin they want.

Bottom out the long standing bugs in fractals. They are well documented and already on the forums. They should be fixed by now. They can really ruin your day and make you resent logging on to totally waste hours of your time in an MMO.

Let some of the original fractal design go. Some previous fixes to fractals have seemed like a petulant response by the designers to punish players who use class skills to solve problems, particularly when the design intent is monotonous and lacking fun. Instead the designers should see why the content is unpopular and make it both more enjoyable and challenging at the same time. Example, dredge fractal.

The gear grind on infusions was really bad. I’ve taken a few weeks away from GW2 because I cannot bear the prospect of gearing up characters for this. It will also prohibit me from having two characters capable of top fractals as gear grind is bad for alts.

Otherwise fractals an excellent design concept, good dungeons, and I’d like to see them made even better.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Doing something like you have suggested really comes down to man power and global GW2 development priority.

Chris

My personal opinion would be:
Take your time, but do it nice, that will make everybody happy.
I do understand that time does indeed cost money when running a company, but customer happiness level also correlates to the money the company gets back.

I would not want for example GW1 missions in the current fractal system. GW1 missions were very long in comparison and used very large maps unfitting for fractals. The GW1 missions would risk becoming like Aetherblade or Molten, cut down and taken out of it’s context.

I really, really want to press the issue of the format and that it really, really doesn’t fit for something that is meant to be elaborated. Fractals are simple and short and should stay that way.

Therefore I suggest that even if it does take a very long time, develop a real story-telling dungeon-format within the laws of the Mists in that it can show moments frozen in time, like fractals. But make it stable and make it elaborated and interesting. Otherwise I really don’t think you can do the story justice.

Edit: An Abaddon fractal would also be an example. I would want it elaborated and explaining of the events. Not too short to justify the story. Therefore I’m very grateful of the Kiel voters that saved it from that fate. I don’t think the Thaumanova story was made justice in it’s fractal due to it’s size.

Nike.2631:

Oh, they already did that. The Snowblind Fractal is foreshadowing parts of the campaign against Jormag in late 2015.

All current fractals are scenarios from the past. That’s why one showing the future would be a change.

timmyf.1490:

Hey guys, I thought I might try summarizing the discussion so far, as it’s reached a length that I think makes it tough for people to jump in and contribute. We’ve seen a few “I don’t have time to read this, but here’s my idea [that has already been discussed]” posts so far.

I’m going to do this differently from the link-heavy versions we’ve had others do here and try to summarize the discussion so far. Hopefully some people find this helpful.

Rewards

Rewards have been a heavy topic of discussion, perhaps the most-discussed topic so far. Opinions on rewards vary, but tend to fall into a few core statements that seem to resonate with the community. Overall, Fractal rewards are insufficient compared to rewards in other game types. Suggestions for improving rewards vary, but include: increasing gold, providing other uses for regular and pristine relics, and adding upgradable Fractal armor (beyond just the backpack).

Time Required, Barriers to Entry, AR, and Dredge

One theme we’ve seen come up a lot, in different ways, is that Fractals represent a relatively large investment of time and perhaps gold. Getting started with Fractals can be challenging as there is not necessarily an easy way to learn the encounters due to the randomness of shard choice. Having 4 Fractals at a time can represent a significant amount of gaming for a group and may exclude players who only have an hour or less to play. Progressing deep into Fractals requires Agony Resistance, but that is bound to a character and can make progressing multiple characters through Fractals difficult and expensive. And worst of all, a quick Fractals run can be sidelined by an unlucky Dredge roll which can take many groups twice as long as other Fractals.

Solutions for fixing these problems vary, but include “saving” Fractal progress so single shards can be done at a time, a Practice Mode that allows groups to choose a single Fractal to attempt, some sort of AR-avoidance mechanism as a group buff or bundle, or even account-bound AR.

Dredge has pages of suggested fixes, but most of them center around reducing the total number of mobs, especially in the “clown car” encounter, or removing one of the 4 “parts” to the Fractal: button, hallway, Champ/clown car, final boss.

Rolling For Swamp

The most controversial discussion so far has been on the topic of “rolling” for the Swamp Fractal. There does not appear to be a consensus on this issue – there isn’t even a consensus that rolling is “bad” – apart from variable rewards depending on Fractal difficulty could be a way to reduce rolling. Some players even suggested allowing the group to vote on the Fractal at every stage.

Additional Fractal Content

There has been discussion surrounding adding new Fractals as a way to introduce new lore into the game or revisit unanswered questions. Suggestions for new Fractals have included using alternate versions of GW1 missions or dungeons as well as Fractal versions of events from the three Guild Wars Novels.

This is my own personal view of what people who might not be following closely should know to “catch up” a bit. There were topics discussed which I left out, some on purpose, others by accident, but I still think this is a relatively representative summary.

Thank you very much for this. This is the kind of summation that is really helpful! =)

timmyf.1490:

This is my own personal view of what people who might not be following closely should know to “catch up” a bit. There were topics discussed which I left out, some on purpose, others by accident, but I still think this is a relatively representative summary.

Thanks!

Leaderboards?

I’m also not sure how I feel about purposefully leaving stuff out.

I only have two things to say here.
1. Introduce rewards that can be earned/found in certain fractals. As a “bonus”, the swamp fractal has no unique rewards that can be found in it (but in other fractals only. People will kill for a mini Mossman)
2. more “additional rewards” in the fractals. As of now, only the volcano fractal has an extra chest in it

Nike.2631:

timmyf.1490:

This is my own personal view of what people who might not be following closely should know to “catch up” a bit. There were topics discussed which I left out, some on purpose, others by accident, but I still think this is a relatively representative summary.

Thanks!

Leaderboards?

I’m also not sure how I feel about purposefully leaving stuff out.

Leaderboards was an oversight, but that said… I’m not sure there was either a) a consensus or b) a structured discussion based on certain core beliefs. It was more… some people care about leaderboards, others don’t. Everybody has different opinions on how they could work. Still, probably something I should have mentioned.

As far as leaving stuff out, I’d call it editorial discretion. I greatly respect the work that Lost Witch and others (one person specifically, though I forget his name atm, sorry dude… I’ve been drinking all night…) put into creating long-form link posts detailing all the proposals. I wanted to try something a little different to see how everybody responded to it. I’d like to think I was fair, but I’d very much accept feedback – positive and negative – ideally via PM. Or in-game, if you’d like to chat!

Ayrilana.1396:

….

So in your opinion i have to prove something that you have no reason to doubt because my logic fails. (If you get to fractals late….its your problem and YOU should search the forum. you can t ask people to link every single thing that happened in 1 year).

But also i have to prove something is unintended despite giving clear reasons, and you don t instead have to prove they ARE intended…….

Also you may want to check what evolution means……..i don t really think this topic is only about new stuff.

The point is, we need to remove this istance design of nearly impossible the first time and totally boring from the second…
Its not working.

I agree with Byron. Design shouldn’t rely on gimmick puzzles because they are usually quite shallow and rarely scale with difficulty. For example wisp running at Swamp should simply be removed and replaced with a boss fight (like Mossman).

Unintended mechanics are for instance blast finishers with evasive arcana, devs don’t design the content with one or two intended solutions, they design the content and give players choice while fixing unintended solutions like laying dead in the dredge cage. Obviously, there are much more unintended tactics that they would have wanted.

Wethospu.6437:

I agree with Byron. Design shouldn’t rely on gimmick puzzles because they are usually quite shallow and rarely scale with difficulty. For example wisp running at Swamp should simply be removed and replaced with a boss fight (like Mossman).

its actually a good design that focuses on coordination, and knowledge of the area. But it doesnt scale with difficulty, true.

However these are levels, you have to design levels too, not just boss fights. Im just saying, not everything in a level needs to be a combat related challenge

Mikuchan.7261:

I would not want for example GW1 missions in the current fractal system. GW1 missions were very long in comparison and used very large maps unfitting for fractals. The GW1 missions would risk becoming like Aetherblade or Molten, cut down and taken out of it’s context.

You could easily shorten some of the GW1 missions without cutting out a lot of anything. We’re talking new fractals here after all, custom made to fit the length of the average fractal, and not previously released dungeons that were cut to pieces to fit a fractal later.

phys.7689:

its actually a good design that focuses on coordination, and knowledge of the area. But it doesnt scale with difficulty, true.

However these are levels, you have to design levels too, not just boss fights. Im just saying, not everything in a level needs to be a combat related challenge

Well spoken. I welcome more diversity. Combat can get boring quickly. You need to mix it up a little to keep the levels interesting.

Regarding rolling:

I’d be in favor of letting players simply choose the first fractal. But don’t let them choose every fractal, or we’ll soon be stuck with everyone choosing a chain of the shortest fractals and easiest boss. That is a really effective way to make fractals as boring and repetitive as heck.

About lore/storytelling… (sorry if this is written already, havn’t checked too carefully)

In LFG there could be a checkbox for the host opening the fractal where u choose (or not choose) to “show cinematics”

This makes all party member aware of if the host want to see the cinematics up ahead or not and they can choose not to join if they’re in a hurry, (since it will be clearly stated in the LFG) – discussions/annoyment about slow players taking time looking on cinematics will be reduced.

phys.7689:

Wethospu.6437:

I agree with Byron. Design shouldn’t rely on gimmick puzzles because they are usually quite shallow and rarely scale with difficulty. For example wisp running at Swamp should simply be removed and replaced with a boss fight (like Mossman).

its actually a good design that focuses on coordination, and knowledge of the area. But it doesnt scale with difficulty, true.

However these are levels, you have to design levels too, not just boss fights. Im just saying, not everything in a level needs to be a combat related challenge

It barely needs any coordination or knowledge of the area. Once you have done it couple of times it loses all of its challenge. Designing permanent content like this is literally the worst thing they can do for their game.

Core of their game is designed around combat. Once you leave combat out there’s not much left. And basing content on that will make it shallow, like really shallow (as seen with wisp running).

Now imagine you had to fight Mossman there. And every 25% he would become permanently invisible and attack much faster. You would have to use 1-5 Wisps to get rid of it. That would much more dynamic than what we currently have while still needing (at least) same coordination and knowledge of the area.

They definitely should mix other elements with combat. But if you are looking something else than combat I suggest taking a break and playing another game.

Scorch der Juengere.7328:

And here I could not agree less. While I also think that it is more difficult to leth them scale with difficulty than with fights, I’m not sure if they have to. In the case of wisp running, I don’t think a scaling would be that hard to implement: more traps with longer knockdowns and more enemies with tons of immobilization (such that the other two players also have a job: taking care of these enemies).

I’m sorry that I can’r argue on this in an objective manner, but I just like to solve an “encounter” here and there without fighting. And I guess that would be what distinguishes a puzzle from a non-puzzle: focus on movement versus focus on fighting?

The problem with puzzles is that once you have solved them you really can’t solve them again (as you already know the answer).

I don’t mind puzzles if they really scale like combat elements but so far most of their puzzles don’t scale at all. And I have zero reason to believe we would suddenly get scaling puzzles instead of non-scaling ones (especially if scaling is not mentioned).

As I said above, I think the best way would be mixing puzzle elements with combat elements which would automatically give some scaling .

I also dislike puzzle mechanics. Sometimes they are bearable and I dont mind them (Wisps in swamp and the stairs in harp fractal). But other times they just really irritate me. The new aetherpath fractal is my least favourite fractal (ignoring dredge). Its so boring and its such lazy design. Basically its just a fractal filled with a few trash mobs and a ton of tedious stupid traps which can be trivialized by one class.

Puzzle mechanics can be good when they arent overly impactful or longwinded or timegated. But for the most part they should be avoided unless implemented to make a fight more entertaining (combat puzzles). The boss fights of thaumanova and aether fractal both use puzzle mechanics to make the fight more interesting and I like this. But the rest of the puzzles in aether fractal are really dull.

You could also count the final bosses of cliffside and dredge as having puzzle mechanics. These are good fights. Mostly because the bosses are well designed, but the seal and lava bucket mechanics add something extra without annoying the players. The one boss fight i really hate is the mai trin fractal, the barrage phases are just timegates and really boring once you are used to them (im glad you shortened them but its not enough). If something was added so you could still dps mai trin in the barrage phase or you could use some mechanic to speed up the barrage phases I think it could be a lot more entertaining.

Another culprit of tedious annoying puzzles is the aetherpath in TA (another reason I am annoyed about the removal of TAFU for that path). The old TAFU had one puzzle section which was actually quite good (bees) and the boss fights were all challenging and fun. So why did it have to be removed in favour of a path with huge timegates and tedious puzzles? Keep in mind I actually quite like the boss fights in aetherpath but ive avoided repeating that path because the puzzles and timegates are just too much for me to stomach. TA aetherpath could actually be pretty fun if you remove the pointless puzzles, remove the unskippable cutscenes and tone down the timegating with excessively long dialogues. But even if you fix aetherpath I still want to see TAFU come back. I really miss it and I know a lot of other players do aswell. :<

Chris,

Few weeks ago players challenged the devs for a Dredge fractal run at higher levels. Would you be willing to accept the challenge?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Can-5-DEVs-do-dredge-fractal-at-49-50/first

On puzzles

Puzzles come in a variety of forms. I consider some of them to be a lot of fun, while others are more tedious. Since fractals has quite a few puzzles, and the subject is being discussed, I figured I’d chime in with my thoughts on some fractal puzzles.

I don’t feel qualified to say anything about the thaumanova reactor fractal, since I’m not lucky enough to roll this one ever.

What I would like to see more of in this game:

The TA aetherblade ooze puzzle. I believe this is a real gem when it comes to tactical approaches to combat. Clever use of pushes, pulls, blinds, reflects and immobilizes is really rewarded in this encounter. The ‘synced’ timing can be a bit infuriating though. But I would absolutely love to see more encounters where our combat skills are used in a different setting than the basic – kill your enemy before he kills you – scenario.

LordByron.8369:

So in your opinion i have to prove something that you have no reason to doubt because my logic fails. (If you get to fractals late….its your problem and YOU should search the forum. you can t ask people to link every single thing that happened in 1 year).

I have every reason to doubt. You cannot make a claim and expect everyone to treat it as fact with no evidence. That’s not how it works. If you make a claim then you need to back it up. This is how it’s done in the real world.

I’ve been playing the game since launch and have played fractals since they were introduced a couple months later. I have not seen any such post or claim. I don’t expect people to link every single thing but I do expect them to be able to link proof to their claims. Something, at this point, that I’m starting to think doesn’t exist which explains why you’re trying to dodge from providing it.

LordByron.8369:

But also i have to prove something is unintended despite giving clear reasons, and you don t instead have to prove they ARE intended…….

You made the claim that they were unintended so you have to prove it. For the fourth time, I have did never state something was intended. For the fourth time, I have did never state something was intended. For the fourth time, I have did never state something was intended. For the fourth time, I have did never state something was intended. For the fourth time, I have did never state something was intended.

I apologize for having to repeat the last sentence multiple times but I don’t think the previous attempts have gotten through and repetition does tend to be effective.

LordByron.8369:

Also you may want to check what evolution means……..i don t really think this topic is only about new stuff.

I do not think that you do. Read the very first post and then refer to this post. It wasn’t until later when the thread got sidetracked by the constant posts about dredge that it went into that direction with the post about rolling and changing dredge.

LordByron.8369:

The point is, we need to remove this istance design of nearly impossible the first time and totally boring from the second…
Its not working.

Absolutely not. It’s not impossible the first time because you’re likely doing it during the first 10 fractal levels and it gets progressively more difficult as you get into the higher levels. Any challenge in any game will not be the same the second time around. Do you think people will find Dark Souls as challenging the second time around? No. You also expect the devs to release videos showing how to do each of the challenges which also reduces the difficulty so I don’t get what you’re trying to argue as you’re contradicting yourself. You think there should be more challenge yet you want it to be reduced.

The problems with infusions:

1.) Must be an artificer to combine infusions. My mesmer, who I generally play Fractals with, is a tailor and a weaponsmith. So to create higher level infusions I must either run back and forth to the bank by way of the log-in screen to get my infusions to my artificer so that he can combine them and I can repeat the tiresome exercise in reverse, or I must switch crafting discipline to artificer and pay to switch back to my preferred craft after I combine my infusions. It is inconvenient and irritating.

2.) Combining infusions is expensive. The exponential increase needed to create a new level gets quickly out of control; a +1 infusion from the TP is currently 11 silver, a +10 infusion is 69 gold and a +12 is 275 gold. There are multiple infusion slots which helps, but the expense is still incredibly high. Many people aren’t willing to go past the point of the simple +5 infusions in each slot, so 30 AR. It’s cost prohibitive and consequently it prohibits who is able to participate in high level fractals.

3.) The component extractor. 250 gems. At current transfer rates this costs over 20 gold. This gold is spent to get back an infusion so that it can be destroyed in the creation of another. This is just wrong.

These problems need to be addressed.

Since people talk about Puzzles in fractals, figured I’d chime in myself.

What I would like to see more of in this game:

More Jumping. More Jumping. More Jumping. Oh and More Jumping.

The format completely stolen and modified for personal purpose from The Lost Witch.7601.
Figured I’d give credit.
;)

Ayrilana.1396:

-snip-

LordByron.8369:

- snip-

Guys, take it to Whispers.

Aye.8392:

The problems with infusions:

1.) Must be an artificer to combine infusions. My mesmer, who I generally play Fractals with, is a tailor and a weaponsmith. So to create higher level infusions I must either run back and forth to the bank by way of the log-in screen to get my infusions to my artificer so that he can combine them and I can repeat the tiresome exercise in reverse, or I must switch crafting discipline to artificer and pay to switch back to my preferred craft after I combine my infusions. It is inconvenient and irritating.

2.) Combining infusions is expensive. The exponential increase needed to create a new level gets quickly out of control; a +1 infusion from the TP is currently 11 silver, a +10 infusion is 69 gold and a +12 is 275 gold. There are multiple infusion slots which helps, but the expense is still incredibly high. Many people aren’t willing to go past the point of the simple +5 infusions in each slot, so 30 AR. It’s cost prohibitive and consequently it prohibits who is able to participate in high level fractals.

3.) The component extractor. 250 gems. At current transfer rates this costs over 20 gold. This gold is spent to get back an infusion so that it can be destroyed in the creation of another. This is just wrong.

These problems need to be addressed.

Well, #2 and #3 are working as intended. I can understand (and maybe even agree with) disliking the intent, but… yeah, that’s intentional.

For #1, I just leave my artificer at the crafting station. Remember that the crafting station also functions as bank access. Just drop your +1s and extracted +whatever into the bank from your Mesmer, log in on your artificer, up-convert, drop the completed one back into the bank through the crafting station with no running whatsoever, and switch toons.

Aye.8392:

The problems with infusions:

1.) Must be an artificer to combine infusions. My mesmer, who I generally play Fractals with, is a tailor and a weaponsmith. So to create higher level infusions I must either run back and forth to the bank by way of the log-in screen to get my infusions to my artificer so that he can combine them and I can repeat the tiresome exercise in reverse, or I must switch crafting discipline to artificer and pay to switch back to my preferred craft after I combine my infusions. It is inconvenient and irritating.

2.) Combining infusions is expensive. The exponential increase needed to create a new level gets quickly out of control; a +1 infusion from the TP is currently 11 silver, a +10 infusion is 69 gold and a +12 is 275 gold. There are multiple infusion slots which helps, but the expense is still incredibly high. Many people aren’t willing to go past the point of the simple +5 infusions in each slot, so 30 AR. It’s cost prohibitive and consequently it prohibits who is able to participate in high level fractals.

3.) The component extractor. 250 gems. At current transfer rates this costs over 20 gold. This gold is spent to get back an infusion so that it can be destroyed in the creation of another. This is just wrong.

These problems need to be addressed.

1.) You only need to be level 100. So it’s not that bad. And crafting station is also a bank, so unsure what you mean by running back and forth.

2.) It is expensive, but you can also get +5 infusions from fractals for 75 relics. You shouldn’t need more than that.

3.) Completely agree. With a constant ability to upgrade infusions, this should be an item SOLD by Artificer Merchant for either karma or in-game money. And it should be reasonably priced, making it so players actually WANT to upgrade their infusions.

Romo.3709:

Aye.8392:

The problems with infusions:

1.) Must be an artificer to combine infusions. My mesmer, who I generally play Fractals with, is a tailor and a weaponsmith. So to create higher level infusions I must either run back and forth to the bank by way of the log-in screen to get my infusions to my artificer so that he can combine them and I can repeat the tiresome exercise in reverse, or I must switch crafting discipline to artificer and pay to switch back to my preferred craft after I combine my infusions. It is inconvenient and irritating.

2.) Combining infusions is expensive. The exponential increase needed to create a new level gets quickly out of control; a +1 infusion from the TP is currently 11 silver, a +10 infusion is 69 gold and a +12 is 275 gold. There are multiple infusion slots which helps, but the expense is still incredibly high. Many people aren’t willing to go past the point of the simple +5 infusions in each slot, so 30 AR. It’s cost prohibitive and consequently it prohibits who is able to participate in high level fractals.

3.) The component extractor. 250 gems. At current transfer rates this costs over 20 gold. This gold is spent to get back an infusion so that it can be destroyed in the creation of another. This is just wrong.

These problems need to be addressed.

1.) You only need to be level 100. So it’s not that bad. And crafting station is also a bank, so unsure what you mean by running back and forth.

2.) It is expensive, but you can also get +5 infusions from fractals for 75 relics. You shouldn’t need more than that.

3.) Completely agree. With a constant ability to upgrade infusions, this should be an item SOLD by Artificer Merchant for either karma or in-game money. And it should be reasonably priced, making it so players actually WANT to upgrade their infusions.

Totally agree with #3.