Guild Wars 2

On the whole sub 80 issue
I got the impression that this content was going to be targeted at more veteran players due to the plethora of updates for new players in the last while.
Additionally a player spends Approx 20-40 hours as a sub level 80 assuming a moderately effective level of play. It would seem unwise to potentially kitten the content for the players with 1000+ hours of play just because someone couldn’t wait 5 more hours. Realistic under 80’s would have an extremely hard time finding a group outside of a guild training run anyway. Lastly a sub level 80 and new level 80 would/should have other priorities at that stage of their game life (gearing,crafts,story mode completions, PS completion, World completion).

I think along the same lines for what gear the raids should be “tuned” for. With both the new levelling rewards (Which give you 3 exotic pieces that you’ll be wearing when you hit 80) and several paths to exotics a newly turned level 80 will likely spend less than an hour in anything less than exotics, it would make no sense to then put the base line for the content at anything lower than exotic level and should likely be tuned higher because an effective player will also have gotten their ascended necklace instantly too (assuming it takes you a week to level 10 for monthly + 7 for dailies +3 from AP chests = 20L +250 badges from AP chest).

Astralporing.1957:

The raids, if they are implemented, would indeed need a reward system that is equivalent to time and effort investment. It should not however be visibly more rewarding than other forms of content (again, relatively to time and effort invested). Running raids should definitely not be less rewarding, that running dungeons. It shouldn’t be more rewarding either – or at least the differences should not be huge. So, rewards from, for example, 2 hours of raiding should not be higher that, say, ~4 hours of any other alternate content. And if raids are to offer unique rewards, then any other alternate content should offer equivalent unique rewards as well (though personally i think that there should be nothing in this game that would be available through less than at least two alternate methods – not including TP).

I (like the person in the post a few above this) second the idea that raids should have unique rewards(account bound), I actually believe all content should have unique rewards (account bound) but that’s another story. The rewards for completing a raid are rewards that show you completed the raid, just a direct x time y effort = z gold is unrewarding and still has top players competing against farmers and gem converters.

Symph.8407:

Astralporing.1957:

The raids, if they are implemented, would indeed need a reward system that is equivalent to time and effort investment. It should not however be visibly more rewarding than other forms of content (again, relatively to time and effort invested). Running raids should definitely not be less rewarding, that running dungeons. It shouldn’t be more rewarding either – or at least the differences should not be huge. So, rewards from, for example, 2 hours of raiding should not be higher that, say, ~4 hours of any other alternate content. And if raids are to offer unique rewards, then any other alternate content should offer equivalent unique rewards as well (though personally i think that there should be nothing in this game that would be available through less than at least two alternate methods – not including TP).

Other content should reward unique rewards, and most of them do. What we miss are unique rewards acquired through skill. We have unique rewards acquired through every other aspect of the game.
And the unique rewards from raids should in no way be available elsewhere, escpecially not on the TP.

What do you consider a ‘unique reward’? How should you receive it, since you want it based on skill? Availability should be very low on these rewards while demand should be very high, why should you limit the income potential of the ‘leet’ professional raider?

Roybe.5896:

Symph.8407:

Astralporing.1957:

The raids, if they are implemented, would indeed need a reward system that is equivalent to time and effort investment. It should not however be visibly more rewarding than other forms of content (again, relatively to time and effort invested). Running raids should definitely not be less rewarding, that running dungeons. It shouldn’t be more rewarding either – or at least the differences should not be huge. So, rewards from, for example, 2 hours of raiding should not be higher that, say, ~4 hours of any other alternate content. And if raids are to offer unique rewards, then any other alternate content should offer equivalent unique rewards as well (though personally i think that there should be nothing in this game that would be available through less than at least two alternate methods – not including TP).

Other content should reward unique rewards, and most of them do. What we miss are unique rewards acquired through skill. We have unique rewards acquired through every other aspect of the game.
And the unique rewards from raids should in no way be available elsewhere, escpecially not on the TP.

What do you consider a ‘unique reward’? How should you receive it, since you want it based on skill? Availability should be very low on these rewards while demand should be very high, why should you limit the income potential of the ‘leet’ professional raider?

Unique skins for weapons and Armor , Cosmetic infusions , Minis, Tonics, play items, titles there is a lot of potential.
On income potential: Raiding should not be about farming for gold, doing a raid is trying to make a statement of your skills and being rewarded for it, like doing liandri. If it was just about gold a raider would still loose to a farmer (TOT’s are potentially 40g an hour) or a gem buyer (unlimited gold).

On Acquisition: I made a proposal around more unique rewards the further you can progress into a raid as guaranteed rewards from bosses (with a caveat of no skipping/piggybacking allowed. With some of the rewards also being RNG. A token system would be a major no no for this type of content.

i think this game has to offer are skins only for end game and i dont like to see more skins in the raids the main problem is proggresion something that is not skin but we like u guys sey no geartrademill but what then 10 years down the road you guys gonna be happy whit the same gear ?

RE: Rewards

Throwing this one out there: Super rare drop chance for alternate graphical effects for a skill. PvE use only.
Ogden’s Hammer Meteor Shower
Makes Meteor Shower rain down fiery hammers.

Brick Wall of Reflection
We can build it.

Gele.2048:

i think this game has to offer are skins only for end game and i dont like to see more skins in the raids the main problem is proggresion something that is not skin but we like u guys sey no geartrademill but what then 10 years down the road you guys gonna be happy whit the same gear ?

Yes, I will be very happy. I’ll be happy that the things I’ve worked for haven’t become obsolete just for artificial longevity. I’ll be happy that I will have not been forced to grind for new gear just to remain viable. I’ll be happy that Anet hasn’t abandoned the core ideals of the game for people who like stick and carrot. I’ll be very happy, indeed.

Doomed.5201:

Would you guys consider the “under attack” version of la a raid if it were instanced? The one that was used during Season 1 where you were to save civilians.

I ask because this would further expand on the idea of breaking up a raid into several groups, as it would go as far as allowing players to venture even alone or in pairs while fighting together for one goal. Not to forget that there would still be a need for larger groups that take care of the reacurring/timed events, so that players have a meaningful choice of what they want to do.

There would be less focus on raidspecific mechanics but on
-Knowledge (when do the events spawn)
-individual skill for the non-event-rescuers (how many civilians can you rescue per minute)
-map wide coordination (how to spread out so the map is covered most efficiantly)

If you insist on a bossfight you could still attach the hologram fight to the end of this raid

Honestly, I think this is what they need to do instead of raids. Something like this was much more fun for a wider range of players.

Conski Deshan.2057:

I (like the person in the post a few above this) second the idea that raids should have unique rewards(account bound), I actually believe all content should have unique rewards (account bound) but that’s another story. The rewards for completing a raid are rewards that show you completed the raid, just a direct x time y effort = z gold is unrewarding and still has top players competing against farmers and gem converters.

The problem with account bound rewards is that they are only rewarding the first time you get them. After that they are completely worthless. So no i dont want to see account bound and soulbound rewards. I understand people dont want raids to become a vastly superior farm spot. But the whole idea of rewards is to get something rewarding. And for many people that means money to buy other things they want. Uniques skins are nice but if you already have them then you should be able to sell them for a nice profit.

Fractal skins got changed to become transmutations which meant they could no longer be salvaged to get ectos (they were statless exotics before). And when the wardrobe was added having multiple of the same skin was even more useless. Essentially players have nothing to do with supposedly a prestigious fractal reward except for destroying them if they already unlocked the skin before. Also with ascended drops. They are account bound and if you dont need them you cant do anything with them but sell to a vendor. The weapons give a measly 1g and the rings and armour give a few silver. Thats pretty pathetic for endgame gear which costs hundreds of gold and many hours of gameplay to craft.

Ascended gear and fractal skins are supposedly the best rewards you can get from fractals. Except they are actually completely useless if you dont need them. Id prefer it if we didnt have more rewards which follow this pattern of only being rewarding if you get exactly what you want and you havent already recieved it in the past. So please dont make new raid rewards account bound or soulbound. I dont want raids to become the same as fractals (most challenging content but least rewarding part of PvE). The only exception to this that i can accept is a rare mini pet or tonic. But I think even these could be tradeable.

I think it would also be good to allow raid groups to share loot that a player doesnt want. So if you are going to add account bound drops (and i hope you dont) then you can at least choose to donate it to a party member before it gets bound to you. This is something my friends have mentioned countless times upon recieving our fractal rewards. Friend gets a skin I want and I get a skin they want. So frustrating.

Side question: Everyone’s picked up a boulder/rock before in game and thrown it, right? And most everyone knows what happens when an Elementalist does it, right?

Would anyone object to optional objects like that in a raid, where one class can make better use of it than any other? A gate for a shortcut that only a warrior can open, a tech console that only an engineer can work, or a seal that only a guardian can break to weaken a foe?

Palador.2170:

Side question: Everyone’s picked up a boulder/rock before in game and thrown it, right? And most everyone knows what happens when an Elementalist does it, right?

I don’t know. what happens?

Tuomir.1830:

Gele.2048:

i think this game has to offer are skins only for end game and i dont like to see more skins in the raids the main problem is proggresion something that is not skin but we like u guys sey no geartrademill but what then 10 years down the road you guys gonna be happy whit the same gear ?

Yes, I will be very happy. I’ll be happy that the things I’ve worked for haven’t become obsolete just for artificial longevity. I’ll be happy that I will have not been forced to grind for new gear just to remain viable. I’ll be happy that Anet hasn’t abandoned the core ideals of the game for people who like stick and carrot. I’ll be very happy, indeed.

so u build something once and u have it FOR milion years WOW so dull tell me if u buy one car u gonna drive it 50 years you not gonna change it cuz you worked so hard to buy that car right ?

Gele.2048:

Tuomir.1830:

Gele.2048:

i think this game has to offer are skins only for end game and i dont like to see more skins in the raids the main problem is proggresion something that is not skin but we like u guys sey no geartrademill but what then 10 years down the road you guys gonna be happy whit the same gear ?

Yes, I will be very happy. I’ll be happy that the things I’ve worked for haven’t become obsolete just for artificial longevity. I’ll be happy that I will have not been forced to grind for new gear just to remain viable. I’ll be happy that Anet hasn’t abandoned the core ideals of the game for people who like stick and carrot. I’ll be very happy, indeed.

so u build something once and u have it FOR milion years WOW so dull tell me if u buy one car u gonna drive it 50 years you not gonna change it cuz you worked so hard to buy that car right ?

What’s dull to me is having to play not for fun, but to stay viable. And yes, if it’d be a car I like, then of course I’d use it for as long as possible.

This is not a game focused on getting better gear. You have plenty of options for that in other games, but just because you want it doesn’t mean others do.

KngGilgamesh.3481:

Palador.2170:

Side question: Everyone’s picked up a boulder/rock before in game and thrown it, right? And most everyone knows what happens when an Elementalist does it, right?

I don’t know. what happens?

You get the standard “throw rock” skill that everyone else gets, plus a second “meteor strike” type attack from lighting it on fire and tossing it high into the air to fall on them.

Evee.2714:

Synthesis Track: As I mentioned in the last bit a good long term goal for raiding would be a Synthesis Track. A hybrid system of the current PvP track reward system and the Mystic Forge, this system will give raiders a long term goal that can evolve as the game does. Using materials that can be obtained from all aspects of the game the player will be able to spend “Raid Experience” to synthesize these materials into new items giving access to difficult to obtain items that span the entire game (i.e precursors, exotic/ascended runes, ascended armor/weapons)

This is something I think should be implemented across all three game modes. PvE Raids, WvW, and obviously PvP already has it.

Tuomir.1830:

Gele.2048:

Tuomir.1830:

Gele.2048:

i think this game has to offer are skins only for end game and i dont like to see more skins in the raids the main problem is proggresion something that is not skin but we like u guys sey no geartrademill but what then 10 years down the road you guys gonna be happy whit the same gear ?

Yes, I will be very happy. I’ll be happy that the things I’ve worked for haven’t become obsolete just for artificial longevity. I’ll be happy that I will have not been forced to grind for new gear just to remain viable. I’ll be happy that Anet hasn’t abandoned the core ideals of the game for people who like stick and carrot. I’ll be very happy, indeed.

so u build something once and u have it FOR milion years WOW so dull tell me if u buy one car u gonna drive it 50 years you not gonna change it cuz you worked so hard to buy that car right ?

What’s dull to me is having to play not for fun, but to stay viable. And yes, if it’d be a car I like, then of course I’d use it for as long as possible.

This is not a game focused on getting better gear. You have plenty of options for that in other games, but just because you want it doesn’t mean others do.

While I don’t believe he put up the best argument, I do agree that it’s weird to be playing for so long and have my characters not see progression. It’s kind of boring and makes doing high end to hard content kind of trivial if the rewards are just more gold for more skins. And I don’t think you’ll become significantly less viable with gear progression happening. Most of this game relies on skill and traits.

I think the one thing that is obvious from the past 13 pages is that the community is extremely polarized over how raids should be presented and packaged in GW2.

If ArenaNet ever decides to integrate instanced raiding into the game, I don’t envy them the task. Regardless of how they choose to approach it, there will be large groups of people disappointed on one side or the other.

Instead of fighting back and forth, Im going to back up and, as simply as possible, state what I personally want – at the most basic level – out of a GW2 raid. I would encourage others to do the same – focus on your goals/thoughts and worry a little less about criticizing others.

There are three things I would like to see developers keep in mind if/when they ever start work on GW2 raids:

Challenging Content – specifically group challenges that require more coordination and teamwork than what is currently required in dungeons and guild missions. I think this is the one thing that pretty much everyone in the thread can agree on, even if there is some contention about how far that challenge extends.

Friendly Community Focus - I don’t want the process of forming and starting raids to become a point of contention or drive wedges into guilds or groups of friends. My original thoughts on this (scaling) definitely caused some waves. I still feel strongly about this, but would be open to solutions other than scaling if any exist (im not convinced they do, but would love to be surprised). Raiding cannot become the cesspool of hate and egos that it has in other games. Raiding should be about bringing groups of friends together to experience fun challenging content.

Maintaining the Core Principles of GW2 - Raiding cannot take over end game or be seen as more important from a development perspective when compared to other areas. There are a lot of elements to lvl 80 gameplay in GW2 – WvW, spvp, dungeons/fractals, open world DEs/maps (temples, dry top, world bosses), guild missions, etc. Raiding shouldn’t pull development efforts away from advancing those areas of the game – nor should it be seen as special or somehow above that content.

People should raid because they find raiding fun – not because they think it is what is expected of them or because raiding in GW2 is somehow seen as more prestigious than other content in the game.

I know some of that sounds simplistic, but it is what I want from raiding should it ever make its way into GW2.

Very well said, Blaeys. An excellent layout of how raids should feel.

Now the tricky part is designing it so they do feel like that.

Sub-80 Stuff
This is assuming that “raid” content is going to be instanced or somehow gives players control over who participates in this content.

Non-80s are Weaker

• It should be acknowledged that a non-80 is going to be less effective than someone at maximum level. This is especially true after many of the New Player Experience changes! If this “raiding” content was built with non-80s in mind, then it would have to be possible to be completed by this group; if not, then what’s the point in giving them access?
  
  Now, if the content can be completed by a non-80 player, who is weaker than someone at max level, then the content is going to be much easier to complete (by comparison) with a full group of level 80s. This would make players more inclined to play with 80s rather than handicap themselves with someone who is not.

It’s Ineffective – Look at Dungeons!

• I personally see little value in making this content accessible to non-80s, and the best example I can cite is dungeons. Dungeons start to become accessible to players as early as level 30, but it’s usually run by level 80s. Why?
  
  Players know that playing with a non-80 is handicapping the group: They are likely less experienced and will probably deal less damage and even die. Even though Explorable Mode was built to be accessible to non-80s, the general community that runs this content does not (and generally has not in the past) play with them. There is no reason to believe content built in this way in the future is going to have different results.

Proposal

Groupvs.GroupvsGroup Raids

Why not make the raids the Competitive or have a lone competitive raid among however many raids that could be implemented? A GvGvG raid. There could be three paths. Every team fights mobs raid style in their own path. The first team to beat their boss gets a chest and then the raid moves on to phase 2. The group that won has a different role than the groups that lost the boss portion of the raid. They take on aspects and skills of bosses designed by ArenaNet and the two groups that lost fight them. If the team that won Phase #1 can win in Boss Form they are rewarded again and the raid is over. If the other two teams that lost the initial fight can win they are both rewarded. That way, all three teams could technically win or only 1 team. It also would offer interesting mechanics.

Proposal #2

What if raids were designed so that gear was uniform like in PvP? You could pick from various stats like in PvP but it was all the same pool of items. This goes for raids outside of my competitive idea. That way it’s still skill based but a new player doesn’t have to worry about not being geared properly. If the progression is cosmetic then it doesn’t matter. This also helps to balance raids without the need for skill splits to make the content difficult yet fair.

Most of the posts have covered much needed items such as Raid tools group/instance control. My personal favorite suggestion was a Reward Track similar to that of the PvP Reward Tracks. I would also love to see a Reward Track for WvW as well.

Proposal Overview

A raid similar to the Urban Battlegrounds (Ascalon Fractal). An instance in which the 10-20(15 preferably) player group should move through a battle field (and then afterwards possibly a fortress) to certain objectives. The same map should be a new WvW map. A small portion of this map should also be usable as a new PvP map.

Goal of Proposal

The goal is to give a fun and rewarding Raid experience while at the same time familiarizing players with aspects of other game modes. Also, to simplify and streamline the work flow for the Devs.

Proposal Functionality

PvE
-The entire Raid instance should not function as an escort. NPC’s should remain at the start of the instance other than any NPC’s that may be about on the battlefield fighting to add to immersion. At the beginning the group should choose between 1 of 3 NPC’s to escort (similar to choosing between one of the three orders). Your choice should be between offensive, defensive and stealth. It could be that Stealth is the easier of the paths while Offensive is the harder allowing for an option of easy mode versus hard mode. Or it could be that the stealthier option is a five player portion while the defensive and offensive options are for 10-20 players. The option should just be there to allow for one Raid instance to be played through in different fashions.
-The Raid can feature events like Capturing and Decapturing nodes, King of the Hill, and maybe a little bit of Capture the Flag(CTF). Assaulting and Defending different sites and after a certain amount of progress has been made the group encounters a Boss. For Defensive positions the boss would either lead or follow some enemy forces in different circumstances. Some of the events should require the group to split into smaller teams to handle multiple objectives simultaneously.
-Siege should be an option for players to use and also a force to contend with during certain fights.
WvW
-This map should be identical, for the most part, to the PvE Raid map.
PvP
A much smaller portion of the map could be used as a PvP battleground.

Associated Risks

-If the Raid is made too much like Urban Battlefield then it will seem like recycling. The Raid instance needs to have a drastically different theme and style in order to separate itself from fractal instance.
-The usage of the same map for all three game modes could be seen as recycled content. I doubt this since PvP and WvW players would love it regardless just to have a new map to play on.
————
Even if the same maps are not used for all three game modes, perhaps the theme could be shared amongst them to get the most out of models, architecture, terrain, etc…
This could help in streamlining package roll-outs for new content.

Crystal Reid.2481:

cesmode.4257:

Hi, I mentioned this in my first post a few moments ago. I could be out of date as well as this mind set that we were given early on…but isn’t the entire game ‘endgame’ ? Hop in, do whatever you want to do. No pressure, nada. Take your time, the whole thing is your oyster. When you start creating level 80 content only, ala raids, you segregate the playerbase much like other games where its then a rush to max level to do the raids. All of the gorgeous 1-80 content you have in this game becomes completely trivial and a stepping stone to the real game. You might as well just allow people to boost to 80 via potions or something and skip leveling all together because it becomes absolutely meaningless. A meaningless time sink. I didnt need 80 levels to learn my class. Maybe less than two dozen and I had it down. The rest was just enjoyment because the 1-80 content was nice. I leveled through it without any pressure. Put max level content in the game, and we will feel rushed to get to the real stuff. Its human nature.

For this reason, I do not think raids belong in GW2. But if they are to be implemented, I do have suggestions which I have shared

I bolded a section of this that I wanted to inquire about. Do you think the fact the game has been live for over 2 years now change your thoughts on this? This is definitely a common occurrence with new MMO’s that launch with raiding, but what about a game that didn’t launch with raiding? Is there still an issue of players “rushing to 80” when a large percentage of the player base already has at least one 80? Thoughts?

Yes I believe its still relevant. Its relevant for new players obviously but also for veterans. Many people create alts and not alts are already level 80. I myself have 4 chars at level 80, 1 thats nearly there, 3 alts that are not 80 yet and 2 free slots that I havent even created a character for. Having played since launch I could easily have gotten all my chars to 80 but because there is no rush I take it easy. Wait around for dynamic events to spawn, explorer outside the beaten path, stop and chat with NPCs etc… However a level 80 raid that requires a fully geared lvl 80 char will be a problem for that play style. If and I definitely will want to try different professions I need to level my chars and work hard if I have to gear them in ascended armor as well. .It will take months per Alt of work and that scares me so to speak or potentially drive me off from raiding with alts.

phys.7689:

you cant have it both ways though, either you are trying to create almost mandatory support roles, or you are not.
I believe making support via healing mandatory isnt a good rule of thumb, there can be advantages to healing through some dmg, but it shouldnt be mandatory.

I would suggest, design it so that damage can be avoided, or absorbed. Give some advantage for absorbing the dmg. Such as superior positioning for longer (lets say avoiding it requires everyone to move out of range) Or the enemy takes extra dmg while you soak dmg, however this is not mandatory, there will be a playstyle where you can absorb it (for a short time) and benefit, and a playstyle where you avoid, and get back in there and go to town.

Regardless, i think its a bad idea to make any one role semi mandatory with the current system. Yes it will require more complex designs, but overall i think it will make a stronger system.
Also remember healing is only one type of support.

I think they should focus gameplay/roles on support dps and control. Support would be buffs at key times, heals weakness/blind. Control would i agree need a rework of defiance. other games control is generally more powerful when it lands, and more limited. i dont think control can really be a prime tenant and role in battle if the system negates 9/10 control effects off the bat

Its possible to intermix it actually and it could create some interesting situations.

Imagine a boss who has an attack that can say complelely immobilize up to 3 players for a long time say 10 seconds. During that time any physical damage they get, gets converted to conditions. Now the party needs to somehow keep them alive because loosing 3 members per this attack would be catastrophic (ohh no down state if they die they die not downed) I mean what I am trying to say here is not force a specific role but force people to consider taking some supportability in their builds. In this case players can help their mates by either directly helping them through healing or condition removal or indirectly by Crowd controlling mobs away from them.

Just one example I am sure there can be many scenarios where support will be necessary even though there is no need to focus exclusively on it.

phys.7689:

maha.7902:

Sytherek.7689:

NoTrigger.8396:

Sytherek.7689:

NoTrigger.8396:

Sytherek.7689:

EDIT: We need some way to prevent “speed runs”, which ruined 5-man dungeons for alot of people. Moving quickly an efficiently is great; racing through content driven by rewards is no fun for many.

preventing something that you personally dont like, but others may enjoy is never a good thing.

Speed runs are the only PUGs available 90% of the time. I have no problems with speed runs; I have a problem with content being locked behind one way of playing.

you can always make your own group and use your personal way of playing and advertise the party like that?

In a game with a lousy LFG tool? They build a solid LFG tool for raids, I’ll make groups. I was a successful raider leader for years in WoW.

Why don’t I join a big raiding guild? Been there, done that, hate seeing stupid egos clash in guild chat and watching people fight over the guild bank. I’m not interested in petty politics in a game; I’m here to relax and have fun.

No thanks, I can have fun without the aggravation.

Lousy LFG tool? Type in group name, make group, people join, is some sort of rocket science required for this?

The tool is not an excuse, you just aren’t interested in making groups.

And PUG “speed runs” are not speed runs, so lets stop pretending that sitting at each boss for 15 minutes waiting for your party that can’t perform skips and dying over and over again is “speed running”.

there is no reason to mock pugs, try to keep your distaste for them out of the discussion. Its going to bait derails. Try to focus on game design ideas and reasonings

I prefer PuGs over guild runs. Never said anything different.

The problem isn’t with PuGs. It’s with how ANet supports PuGs.

Galen Grey.4709:

Crystal Reid.2481:

cesmode.4257:

Hi, I mentioned this in my first post a few moments ago. I could be out of date as well as this mind set that we were given early on…but isn’t the entire game ‘endgame’ ? Hop in, do whatever you want to do. No pressure, nada. Take your time, the whole thing is your oyster. When you start creating level 80 content only, ala raids, you segregate the playerbase much like other games where its then a rush to max level to do the raids. All of the gorgeous 1-80 content you have in this game becomes completely trivial and a stepping stone to the real game. You might as well just allow people to boost to 80 via potions or something and skip leveling all together because it becomes absolutely meaningless. A meaningless time sink. I didnt need 80 levels to learn my class. Maybe less than two dozen and I had it down. The rest was just enjoyment because the 1-80 content was nice. I leveled through it without any pressure. Put max level content in the game, and we will feel rushed to get to the real stuff. Its human nature.

For this reason, I do not think raids belong in GW2. But if they are to be implemented, I do have suggestions which I have shared

I bolded a section of this that I wanted to inquire about. Do you think the fact the game has been live for over 2 years now change your thoughts on this? This is definitely a common occurrence with new MMO’s that launch with raiding, but what about a game that didn’t launch with raiding? Is there still an issue of players “rushing to 80” when a large percentage of the player base already has at least one 80? Thoughts?

Yes I believe its still relevant. Its relevant for new players obviously but also for veterans. Many people create alts and not alts are already level 80. I myself have 4 chars at level 80, 1 thats nearly there, 3 alts that are not 80 yet and 2 free slots that I havent even created a character for. Having played since launch I could easily have gotten all my chars to 80 but because there is no rush I take it easy. Wait around for dynamic events to spawn, explorer outside the beaten path, stop and chat with NPCs etc… However a level 80 raid that requires a fully geared lvl 80 char will be a problem for that play style. If and I definitely will want to try different professions I need to level my chars and work hard if I have to gear them in ascended armor as well. .It will take months per Alt of work and that scares me so to speak or potentially drive me off from raiding with alts.

Then veterans can raid with their level 80 characters. It is not like there is some mystical force stopping you from logging into your level 80 characters.

@no trigger
is the game design will define what party/role composition is better, they designed actual dungeons zerker friendly, but stuff can change with other content, all depend on mechanics design
i understand your point of view about supporter, but i think u doesent understand “ours” reading you my opinion is you never played other mmo (maybe i’m wrong ofc) but i’m saying that because be a support like “standard” mmo is really different from go with zerk gear and use some support skills, because your role is completly different, your purpose is completly different, you DONT have to do dmg, you have to do your job support the entire party so everyone can do his job
actually in gw2 you cant do that because of game design, and i’m not talking about combact system, but dungeon mecanics.
allow ppl to do much more and much different stuff can give more fun, if i have to do dmg and sometime some good skills i’m just a dps with different skills, but be a real supporter is different, and it give a really nice different experience

so i suggest for RAID CONTENT ONLY to make other stats viable and make finally this game more complete….. otherwise will be just another dungeon with same mechanics “go kill, skip, sometimes click some supportive button and finish it asap” maybe you will find it funny, and it is, but imho there is more from a game and give different gameplay will allow players what they want, also because we are different…

Proposal Overview

Increased difficulty coupled with unique rewards

Goal of Proposal

To create a sense of pride in being part of a strong guild that is capable of overcoming difficult challenges in order to obtain unique visual rewards that tell the tale of how strong the guild is.

Proposal Functionality

Scaling difficulty, multiple “gambit like/ mistlock instability like” effects could be selected in order to make the content more difficult to complete.
Depending on how many of these modifiers are active ( or what scale of difficulty is selected) the end area of the raid would have different aesthetic items available ( like the vendors in Dry Top that have different tiers of things they sell).

A token system could be implemented in order for players to obtain these rewards. In this way guilds that succeed multiple times are rewarded but guilds that only manage to succeed a few times aren’t left behind ( because they’re keeping their tokens).

Unique achievements and titles should also be a part of the rewards.

Associated Risks

There is a possibility that some smaller / less skilled / less advanced guilds would be “left behind”.

@Lian Olsam

Guild Wars 2 was designed to have roles independently of the gear you’re wearing. I understand that some players want a more traditional trinity based system without the possibility of speed clears and fast runs but honestly that’s not going to happen and here’s why.

1)If you make the content so challenging that the best of the best players can’t do it as zerker then you’ve probably made it hard enough that most players can’t do it at all.
The key word in GW2 is accessibility – the game is designed so that most players can complete most content as a rule of thumb.

2)Players adapt and content does not – regardless how how challenging and difficult it is at start – the more players play said content the better they will get at it. Eventually knowing the content by heart they’ll be able to speed clear it with ease.

3)Players are driven by rewards and this means focusing on efficiency. Even if the difference is small players will care about that minute or two off their run. Or that extra wipe.
Even if they found a way to make the new content completely “Zerker proof” this really solves nothing as people will just migrate to the next best thing that allows them to complete the content as fast as possible. It might be another gear type but that will not give you diversity – only an illusion.

There’s always going to be that optimal way of doing it and people will enforce it. In time it will become the norm. You really can’t change that.

4)Guild Wars 2 has roles that tie into your trait and skill choices. You don’t gear up for your role – you build your traits and choose your skills for it.

5) Guild Wars 2 offers player independence rather than the crippling interdependence other MMOs provide. With your own healing skill and other skills in GW2 you are the holy trinity in one.
It thus becomes a matter of personal skill whether you stay alive and perform or go down and die. You’re solely responsible for your performance as an individual.

On top of that your performance in a group is also important but you’re not dependent on the group and they’re not as dependent on you. You don’t rely on someone else to do stuff for you. To fight for you. To heal you, etc.
You’re your own hero and make your own path. Together with others you can be stronger but the failures of others don’t make you weaker.

That’s one of the strongest features of GW2 and I don’t think they’re going to change/drop it.

That was my 2 cents, I hope it cleared up some issues.

hi harper

i dont wanna “destroy zerker” i just wanna have a content with multi gear and multi purpose…. inside the game there is alot of stats, but u will choose only zerk and ptv for other contents… non offence for anet, but i think they wrong something when they had develop dungeons and pve, otherwise why create alot of stats? i never saw all that stats combo in a game, but i will use only 2 (or 3)…
you says “Guild Wars 2 was designed to have roles independently of the gear you’re wearing”
so why use zerker? use nomad and go to do dungeon in gw2 the gear “support” your build/skills, there is no way to use a full dps weapon and traits with nomad,rabbid,soldier etc etc stats, because it will not work properly….

i’d like to have some different mechanism inside raids will allow ppl to play it different

if you go full zerk and u have a perfect party but the raid/dungeon mechanics will doesent work (you wipe) if no one will give you a powerfull support, maybe one of zerk will go for a support builds+support weapon+support gear, changing his role and his purpose in a full support man (not a dps with some support buttons to click sometimes), if some bosses/mobs will take for example max 20k direct dmg per second but can take other 20k condi dmg per second, another zerk will go for condi and if during the fight will be other mobs coming from a side and they r unkillable but they are weak on control, maybe someoneelse will play with more cc stuff…. so in this game mechanics go full zerk will be mad, because you need to be a more complete party with a REAL different role and gameplay, not just some click sometimes…

and that’s just an example how can be different the game with different mechanism

ofc players (me on top) will try to find the best and faster way to finish the content, what i’m saying is to write a new contents with this purpose, for have a different and more various gameplay

for the other points you write, you r just writing for content we have, and i’m going forward this concept, trying to immagine another kind of gameplay for give a new life of the game… actually i’m spending more time on forums instead of playing because its all the same stuff since release, and if they add content with same gameplay will doesent give to everyone something for play for the next 2 years…

there is not only players who love speed run, there is not only players who love farming, there is also players like me, who wanna challenging content but wanna also have a fun, and more choice you have more fun u can have, and on top of all you can make happy more ppl, because if u love to do max dps, after this, u can keep your role, no one will force you to play differently, but now others ppl can do it if they want…

Sytherek.7689:

Why don’t I join a big raiding guild? Been there, done that, hate seeing stupid egos clash in guild chat and watching people fight over the guild bank. I’m not interested in petty politics in a game; I’m here to relax and have fun.

No thanks, I can have fun without the aggravation.

I was raiding a lot in an other game (not WoW but Rift) too, and have seen this negative behaviour of people there, too. Because of that experience I was so happy in GW2 when I came to GW2, that here was no need to join a “large guild” to play the game and all the content of the game and I could “just have fun” with some friends.

My small proposal for this: Please make the raiding-system so (maybe improve the LFG tool, not only for guilds, etc..) that raiding can be a fun experience for people that do not want to stress themselfes with a “big guild” and all the negative social interactions, that often can happen there.

Greetings.

Olmega.4965:

Tuomir.1830:

Gele.2048:

Tuomir.1830:

Gele.2048:

i think this game has to offer are skins only for end game and i dont like to see more skins in the raids the main problem is proggresion something that is not skin but we like u guys sey no geartrademill but what then 10 years down the road you guys gonna be happy whit the same gear ?

Yes, I will be very happy. I’ll be happy that the things I’ve worked for haven’t become obsolete just for artificial longevity. I’ll be happy that I will have not been forced to grind for new gear just to remain viable. I’ll be happy that Anet hasn’t abandoned the core ideals of the game for people who like stick and carrot. I’ll be very happy, indeed.

so u build something once and u have it FOR milion years WOW so dull tell me if u buy one car u gonna drive it 50 years you not gonna change it cuz you worked so hard to buy that car right ?

What’s dull to me is having to play not for fun, but to stay viable. And yes, if it’d be a car I like, then of course I’d use it for as long as possible.

This is not a game focused on getting better gear. You have plenty of options for that in other games, but just because you want it doesn’t mean others do.

While I don’t believe he put up the best argument, I do agree that it’s weird to be playing for so long and have my characters not see progression. It’s kind of boring and makes doing high end to hard content kind of trivial if the rewards are just more gold for more skins. And I don’t think you’ll become significantly less viable with gear progression happening. Most of this game relies on skill and traits.

Gear threadmill is artificial longevity. It’s there only to make the game addictive without bothering to make it intrinsically rewarding, like mixing pills into cookie dough.

Horizontal progression is what we should be after. Unique rewards from raids (account bound), for an example armor with various designs with stats no greater than what already exists, perhaps just skins (please, not just overly shiny big stuff, some may like them, but me, like many others, loathe stuff like the AP armor or most of the legendaries) are a form of horizontal progression. So are new traits, skills and weapons. GW1 never needed any additional vertical progression for longevity, and neither will GW2.

Nokaru.7831:

Sub-80 Stuff
This is assuming that “raid” content is going to be instanced or somehow gives players control over who participates in this content.

Non-80s are Weaker

• It should be acknowledged that a non-80 is going to be less effective than someone at maximum level. This is especially true after many of the New Player Experience changes! If this “raiding” content was built with non-80s in mind, then it would have to be possible to be completed by this group; if not, then what’s the point in giving them access?
  
  Now, if the content can be completed by a non-80 player, who is weaker than someone at max level, then the content is going to be much easier to complete (by comparison) with a full group of level 80s. This would make players more inclined to play with 80s rather than handicap themselves with someone who is not.

It’s Ineffective – Look at Dungeons!

• I personally see little value in making this content accessible to non-80s, and the best example I can cite is dungeons. Dungeons start to become accessible to players as early as level 30, but it’s usually run by level 80s. Why?
  
  Players know that playing with a non-80 is handicapping the group: They are likely less experienced and will probably deal less damage and even die. Even though Explorable Mode was built to be accessible to non-80s, the general community that runs this content does not (and generally has not in the past) play with them. There is no reason to believe content built in this way in the future is going to have different results.

You are missing one important point of lower level dungeons/Raids. Learning curve. It would allow people to try to experience raiding earlier, and offer a progression of raids from easier to harder for people that are new to it. Nobody starts dungeooning at Arah – they get used to the content in easier dungeons first. Why Raids can’t be the same? It would also mean that raiding would be less exclusive, and become an option for more players. Which (contrary to what some people in this thread want) i consider to be a good thing.

Zok.4956:

My small proposal for this: Please make the raiding-system so (maybe improve the LFG tool, not only for guilds, etc..) that raiding can be a fun experience for people that do not want to stress themselfes with a “big guild” and all the negative social interactions, that often can happen there.

Unfortunately, i doubt this can be avoided. Anywhere where you are given a choice between grouping with a friend, and someone you dislike, and the game tells you to pick the latter (because your friend is of casual skill level, which just won’t cut, and the kitten is a “pro”) social interactions suffer. It’s one of the main reasons why i don’t do raiding anymore, and why i play GW2 and not “other games”. The group “challenge” aspect, when it is coupled with rewards, just completely changes the rules for social interaction – and not in a good way.

Making the raiding more inclusive, and creating the “easymode” raids (yes, i know, some people would consider those terms to be incompatible) would help a bit here.

Palador.2170:

Doomed.5201:

Would you guys consider the “under attack” version of la a raid if it were instanced? The one that was used during Season 1 where you were to save civilians.

I ask because this would further expand on the idea of breaking up a raid into several groups, as it would go as far as allowing players to venture even alone or in pairs while fighting together for one goal. Not to forget that there would still be a need for larger groups that take care of the reacurring/timed events, so that players have a meaningful choice of what they want to do.

There would be less focus on raidspecific mechanics but on
-Knowledge (when do the events spawn)
-individual skill for the non-event-rescuers (how many civilians can you rescue per minute)
-map wide coordination (how to spread out so the map is covered most efficiantly)

If you insist on a bossfight you could still attach the hologram fight to the end of this raid

Honestly, I think this is what they need to do instead of raids. Something like this was much more fun for a wider range of players.

Well, they did it already. The mechanics above were used in Dry Top which I would call a “farm map” and not “open world raid” (thats nothing against farmers, farming is OK). But I liked “under attack” much much more.

But, on the other hand: In other games I knew, nearly every raid got “farm status” after it was mastered by the players and was after that (mostly) played only to farm gear.

So maybe, it could be a raid. Because I think a fun raid needs to be more than just “mechanics”.

Greetings.

Astralporing.1957:

Nokaru.7831:

Sub-80 Stuff
This is assuming that “raid” content is going to be instanced or somehow gives players control over who participates in this content.

Non-80s are Weaker

• It should be acknowledged that a non-80 is going to be less effective than someone at maximum level. This is especially true after many of the New Player Experience changes! If this “raiding” content was built with non-80s in mind, then it would have to be possible to be completed by this group; if not, then what’s the point in giving them access?
  
  Now, if the content can be completed by a non-80 player, who is weaker than someone at max level, then the content is going to be much easier to complete (by comparison) with a full group of level 80s. This would make players more inclined to play with 80s rather than handicap themselves with someone who is not.

It’s Ineffective – Look at Dungeons!

• I personally see little value in making this content accessible to non-80s, and the best example I can cite is dungeons. Dungeons start to become accessible to players as early as level 30, but it’s usually run by level 80s. Why?
  
  Players know that playing with a non-80 is handicapping the group: They are likely less experienced and will probably deal less damage and even die. Even though Explorable Mode was built to be accessible to non-80s, the general community that runs this content does not (and generally has not in the past) play with them. There is no reason to believe content built in this way in the future is going to have different results.

You are missing one important point of lower level dungeons/Raids. Learning curve. It would allow people to try to experience raiding earlier, and offer a progression of raids from easier to harder for people that are new to it. Nobody starts dungeooning at Arah – they get used to the content in easier dungeons first. Why Raids can’t be the same? It would also mean that raiding would be less exclusive, and become an option for more players. Which (contrary to what some people in this thread want) i consider to be a good thing.

Zok.4956:

My small proposal for this: Please make the raiding-system so (maybe improve the LFG tool, not only for guilds, etc..) that raiding can be a fun experience for people that do not want to stress themselfes with a “big guild” and all the negative social interactions, that often can happen there.

Unfortunately, i doubt this can be avoided. Anywhere where you are given a choice between grouping with a friend, and someone you dislike, and the game tells you to pick the latter (because your friend is of casual skill level, which just won’t cut, and the kitten is a “pro”) social interactions suffer. It’s one of the main reasons why i don’t do raiding anymore, and why i play GW2 and not “other games”. The group “challenge” aspect, when it is coupled with rewards, just completely changes the rules for social interaction – and not in a good way.

Making the raiding more inclusive, and creating the “easymode” raids (yes, i know, some people would consider those terms to be incompatible) would help a bit here.

for this problem i’ve wrote the solution some posts ago, making a “normal mode” and “hard mode” with scaled reward, but it’s more complex, i’ve wrote it better in the past post

I really would be a fan picking out stat combos for your character prior to entering a raid. I never PUG. Period. I am in a guild that started in 2007 and has been playing the GW franchise since GW1 launched so LFG-Tool-gear-pinging is a thing I don’t have to suffer. If gear checks are as rampant as people say they are for dungeons in this game, think about how it’s gonna be for raids. The dungeons in this game are not hard by any stretch of the imagination at this point in the game’s lifespan. It’s gonna be terrible for the raids starting out if people want exact stat combos.

Make it so you have a few different stat combos to choose from before you start the raid(Heck, I’d like this choice for my private Arena).

I also think having the ability to save builds to templates prior to raids coming out is a must.

Build balance is already an issue in this game without skill splits and three formats(WvW, PvP, PvE). Throwing Raids in the mix is adding a fourth format. Putting in a certain amount of uniformity to Raids is a good idea to help keep them balanced. I don’t want to see skills change for general PvE to certain things because Raid balance demands they do. Specific stat combos for Raids can help prevent that and promote Raid balance at the same time.

spoj.9672:

Conski Deshan.2057:

I (like the person in the post a few above this) second the idea that raids should have unique rewards(account bound), I actually believe all content should have unique rewards (account bound) but that’s another story. The rewards for completing a raid are rewards that show you completed the raid, just a direct x time y effort = z gold is unrewarding and still has top players competing against farmers and gem converters.

The problem with account bound rewards is that they are only rewarding the first time you get them. After that they are completely worthless. So no i dont want to see account bound and soulbound rewards. I understand people dont want raids to become a vastly superior farm spot. But the whole idea of rewards is to get something rewarding. And for many people that means money to buy other things they want. Uniques skins are nice but if you already have them then you should be able to sell them for a nice profit.

This problem is easily solved by making the drops salavageable and vendorable. They could have a higher vendor value that most other things. Last I checked dungeons were still pretty profitable even if you have the dunguneer subtitle because of this.

spoj.9672:

Fractal skins got changed to become transmutations which meant they could no longer be salvaged to get ectos (they were statless exotics before). And when the wardrobe was added having multiple of the same skin was even more useless. Essentially players have nothing to do with supposedly a prestigious fractal reward except for destroying them if they already unlocked the skin before. Also with ascended drops. They are account bound and if you dont need them you cant do anything with them but sell to a vendor. The weapons give a measly 1g and the rings and armour give a few silver. Thats pretty pathetic for endgame gear which costs hundreds of gold and many hours of gameplay to craft.

Except you didn’t craft them you got a net gain of +1G for that ascended drop, while I agree fractal rewards are significantly sub-par most people would attribute that to the RNG basis of the rewards.

spoj.9672:

Ascended gear and fractal skins are supposedly the best rewards you can get from fractals. Except they are actually completely useless if you dont need them. Id prefer it if we didnt have more rewards which follow this pattern of only being rewarding if you get exactly what you want and you havent already recieved it in the past. So please dont make new raid rewards account bound or soulbound. I dont want raids to become the same as fractals (most challenging content but least rewarding part of PvE). The only exception to this that i can accept is a rare mini pet or tonic. But I think even these could be tradeable.

I think it would also be good to allow raid groups to share loot that a player doesnt want. So if you are going to add account bound drops (and i hope you dont) then you can at least choose to donate it to a party member before it gets bound to you. This is something my friends have mentioned countless times upon recieving our fractal rewards. Friend gets a skin I want and I get a skin they want. So frustrating.

My proposal on rewards means you choose what you want at each point,
At boss 3 you get to choose a weapon skin , At boss 4 you get to choose a weapon (with the skin) At boss 5 you get to choose an armor skin, at boss 6 you get to choose an Armor (with the skin) At the final boss you get a crafting component that can be used to make other things, it removes that issue, stop assuming it will end up like fractals.

Untradeable account bound rewards are an important part of raids for me, I won’t budge on that. If open world farmer joe who has never set foot in a raid ends up with one of those items then I consider it a failure.
You can make repeated runs of content rewarding without making the rewards tradeable. But you can’t honestly expect the content to be infinitely rewarding, past a certain point it makes sense to play a new type of content. Even dungeons have this point, In about a month maybe two I’ll be completely finished with dungeons and probably won’t step foot in them outside of helping other people runs. Thats ok I got several hundred hours out of it and there will be something else to move on and master.

We made it 13 pages before someone for a treadmill appeared thats fairly good going.

Gele.2048:

Tuomir.1830:

Gele.2048:

i think this game has to offer are skins only for end game and i dont like to see more skins in the raids the main problem is proggresion something that is not skin but we like u guys sey no geartrademill but what then 10 years down the road you guys gonna be happy whit the same gear ?

Yes, I will be very happy. I’ll be happy that the things I’ve worked for haven’t become obsolete just for artificial longevity. I’ll be happy that I will have not been forced to grind for new gear just to remain viable. I’ll be happy that Anet hasn’t abandoned the core ideals of the game for people who like stick and carrot. I’ll be very happy, indeed.

so u build something once and u have it FOR milion years WOW so dull tell me if u buy one car u gonna drive it 50 years you not gonna change it cuz you worked so hard to buy that car right ?

Counter example, You finally finished all your hard work and build a mansion, the next year your mansion shrinks to the size of a normal house, the next it’s a cardboard box.
That is what a gear treadmill results in.

Also your car example is a bit flawed , both cars preform the same function at relatively the same ability, you’ve just changed the “skin” of the car.

Conski Deshan.2057:

Untradeable account bound rewards are an important part of raids for me, I won’t budge on that. If open world farmer joe who has never set foot in a raid ends up with one of those items then I consider it a failure.
You can make repeated runs of content rewarding without making the rewards tradeable. But you can’t honestly expect the content to be infinitely rewarding, past a certain point it makes sense to play a new type of content. Even dungeons have this point, In about a month maybe two I’ll be completely finished with dungeons and probably won’t step foot in them outside of helping other people runs. Thats ok I got several hundred hours out of it and there will be something else to move on and master.

Well i understand you want some items only available to those who actually complete the raids. For prestige etc. But at the same time. People who raid should be able to profit from doing such challenging content. Thats why i think there should be a mix. But most rewards should be tradeable. Except for prestige items like tonics, mini pets and selected cosmetic rewards. RNG dropped cosmetic stuff and ascended gear drops should be tradeable. But i agree if thats not possible then the vendor price should be much more generous for those items.

I think part of the problem with the scaling issue is a matter of perspective. If we go on the assumption, and I think many are, that there will only be 1 or 2 raids, then the difficulty of those raids and the number of players involved is a very important issue. However, is this an accurate assumption?

If we make the assumption that there will be 9-12 raids, those issues become much less of a factor. If you plan for more raids then you can make a matrix of raids such as:

Small Raids: Easy 15 man, Medium 15 Man, Hard 15 Man
Medium Raids: Easy 25 Man, Medium 25 Man, Hard 25 Man
Large Raids: Easy 35 Man, Medium 35 Man, Hard 35 Man
X Large Raids: Easy 50 Man, Medium 50 Man, Hard 50 Man

Doing so allows for the rigidity and careful planning of non scalable raids and enough options to allow for people that want larger/harder raids. I think dungeons were originally built with something like this in mind (with mixed success) but for 5 man groups.

Perhaps it would be helpful if one f the devs could state which end of the spectrum they’re considering? Fewer raids or Many raids?

If the devs only want to make one or two raids then something has to give. Either it becomes scalable with all its attendant issues or it’s non scalable and risk alienating a certain portion of the raiding community. Personally, I’d lean towards scalable.

spoj.9672:

Conski Deshan.2057:

Untradeable account bound rewards are an important part of raids for me, I won’t budge on that. If open world farmer joe who has never set foot in a raid ends up with one of those items then I consider it a failure.
You can make repeated runs of content rewarding without making the rewards tradeable. But you can’t honestly expect the content to be infinitely rewarding, past a certain point it makes sense to play a new type of content. Even dungeons have this point, In about a month maybe two I’ll be completely finished with dungeons and probably won’t step foot in them outside of helping other people runs. Thats ok I got several hundred hours out of it and there will be something else to move on and master.

Well i understand you want some items only available to those who actually complete the raids. For prestige etc. But at the same time. People who raid should be able to profit from doing such challenging content. Thats why i think there should be a mix. But most rewards should be tradeable. Except for prestige items like tonics, mini pets and selected cosmetic rewards. RNG dropped cosmetic stuff and ascended gear drops should be tradeable. But i agree if thats not possible then the vendor price should be much more generous for those items.

I agree with making a profit but I do feel that vendor value could be the way to go on that. Far too many skins are brought down to the oh so you paid X gold for it big woop.

As for Ascended: I would speculate that it is not tradeable so that players are actually forced to play the game to get it. I like that idea, it forces a TP trader or gem buyer to actually go and get the stuff themselves , their own bloodstone/emp/dragonite. I like when a player has to do their own dirty work it makes it a game and not a stockmarket.

I totally missed this thread so far, too much candy corn. I just want to say, I am very afraid of the idea of raiding, because I know that I NEVER want to have a raiding experience like people enjoy in WoW and similar games, and I worry that it will become something relatively “required” for playing GW2.

I very much prefer experiences where I can show up at a moment’s notice, play a certain content type for 5-20 minutes between “ok, you can go now” opportunities, and then move to something else. I enjoy Dry Top very much, for example, but wish that it were on a less than 60-minute cycle so that I could do a full run of it in less time. I do not play Fractals because they take too long, and haven’t even attempted the Wurm or Teq in months because to stand any change you have to loiter for an hour or more or hook up with pre-made maps, and I don’t want that. If you could show up for Teq a few minutes before it and stand a solid chance of completing it, like with Karka Queen, I would play it at least weekly, if not nightly, because it can be fun when it works, but it too often doesn’t work, and Wurm never works. And yet Fractals, Teq, and Wurm all have unique rewards that I feel I’m missing out on because I’m not doing them.

So that’s my plea to the developers on this one. Put raids in if you like, but do not put in raid rewards. Nothing whatsoever that is unique to raiding activities. Raiding can provide unique challenges, and the amount of rewards you get should be a mass of gold and gold-worthy items that is equivalent or even slightly better than any other activities in the game, but there should not be anything exclusive to completing a raid.

Basically, if you are a player that enjoys the experience of participating in a raid, then you should be able to do so, and a the end of the run you should feel that you were not wasting your time, that the amount of loot you pulled in was not less than you could have made doing something else instead. If you don’t enjoy the raiding experience though, you should never feel that you should have to slog through the process numerous times just because you really like a cool skin, or a mini, or part of a collection you’re trying to complete.

Players should be allowed to play how they want to play, and not miss out on things. Players should not have to choose to not have fun just to get the stuff they want.

Conski Deshan.2057:

spoj.9672:

Conski Deshan.2057:

Untradeable account bound rewards are an important part of raids for me, I won’t budge on that. If open world farmer joe who has never set foot in a raid ends up with one of those items then I consider it a failure.
You can make repeated runs of content rewarding without making the rewards tradeable. But you can’t honestly expect the content to be infinitely rewarding, past a certain point it makes sense to play a new type of content. Even dungeons have this point, In about a month maybe two I’ll be completely finished with dungeons and probably won’t step foot in them outside of helping other people runs. Thats ok I got several hundred hours out of it and there will be something else to move on and master.

Well i understand you want some items only available to those who actually complete the raids. For prestige etc. But at the same time. People who raid should be able to profit from doing such challenging content. Thats why i think there should be a mix. But most rewards should be tradeable. Except for prestige items like tonics, mini pets and selected cosmetic rewards. RNG dropped cosmetic stuff and ascended gear drops should be tradeable. But i agree if thats not possible then the vendor price should be much more generous for those items.

I agree with making a profit but I do feel that vendor value could be the way to go on that. Far too many skins are brought down to the oh so you paid X gold for it big woop.

As for Ascended: I would speculate that it is not tradeable so that players are actually forced to play the game to get it. I like that idea, it forces a TP trader or gem buyer to actually go and get the stuff themselves , their own bloodstone/emp/dragonite. I like when a player has to do their own dirty work it makes it a game and not a stockmarket.

The problem with vendoring items is that it creates new gold to the system, causing inflation. If raiding main profit would be from that, it would accentuate the problem (perhaps even moreso that dungeon gold rewards). To that end, tradeable goods would be better for a source of profit – TP removes gold from the system, and so holds back rampant inflation. However, not everything should be like that – there’s definitely a need for account bound things for showing off completion of challenging content. So, what if mobs in raids had a considerably increased chance of dropping t6 materials? T6 mats are trade goods with more or less constant value and demand. Too high drop rate in raids might cheapen them too much, but balanced right, it might be just what the economy in the game needs.

spoj.9672:

The problem with account bound rewards is that they are only rewarding the first time you get them. After that they are completely worthless. So no i dont want to see account bound and soulbound rewards. I understand people dont want raids to become a vastly superior farm spot. But the whole idea of rewards is to get something rewarding. And for many people that means money to buy other things they want. Uniques skins are nice but if you already have them then you should be able to sell them for a nice profit.

• If they made a whole new set of skins (maybe with stats) for a raid, that’s 18 different pieces of armor, and 19 different weapons. Perhaps even 1 or more back piece skins. So there would be plenty of skins to get before you’re “done”. Of course if you only play one armor class, there’s less for you to get, but still quite a few pieces.
• The rewards should be given in form of boxes, so you always choose yourself what piece you want. This removes the problem of getting undesirable pieces.
• The unique skins should not be available right away, as in you won’t get them by defeating the first boss, but rather by defeating maybe the 5th boss (or only at the end boss).
• They could make every skin upgradeable. This could be achieved in a number of ways. ** Upgrading could require several of the same piece (along with other ingredients – in the mystic forge).
  • The skins could be upgraded with X amount of an item, that you could also choose from the boxes. This way you could already early on get the choice of “do I go for 5-6 pieces of base skins, or do I use my box 2-6 to get that item to upgrade my first skin?”.
• In line with the upgradeable skins: if the items were with stats, maybe they could start at exotic and be upgraded to ascended along with the visual upgrade (much like the fractal capacitor), perhaps up to infused status (in NO way calling for agony in raids btw)
• As the last thing. I wouldn’t rule out tokens completely, as they are a nice contrast to RNG (and I’m also not a fan of completely guaranteed rewards).
  • To make a token system work, without undermining the uniqueness of the skins in the raid, a simple barrier could be placed on the vendor. Much like I think the skins should not be rewarded by too early bosses in the raid, the vendor for the tokens could spawn (or be locked behind) specific bosses in the raid. This way you could work around your bad luck and still get your skins if you were able to get far enough into the raid. Perhaps the vendors could even be “tiered”, offering small armor pieces at the first spawn, bigger armor pieces later and finally weapons.

As for money, there should obviously be a much better gold/time+effort ratio in the raids than what currently exist in Fractals, and of course also various other tradeable rewards. Just keep the raid-unique skins non tradeable.

Tuomir.1830:

Conski Deshan.2057:

spoj.9672:

Conski Deshan.2057:

Untradeable account bound rewards are an important part of raids for me, I won’t budge on that. If open world farmer joe who has never set foot in a raid ends up with one of those items then I consider it a failure.
You can make repeated runs of content rewarding without making the rewards tradeable. But you can’t honestly expect the content to be infinitely rewarding, past a certain point it makes sense to play a new type of content. Even dungeons have this point, In about a month maybe two I’ll be completely finished with dungeons and probably won’t step foot in them outside of helping other people runs. Thats ok I got several hundred hours out of it and there will be something else to move on and master.

Well i understand you want some items only available to those who actually complete the raids. For prestige etc. But at the same time. People who raid should be able to profit from doing such challenging content. Thats why i think there should be a mix. But most rewards should be tradeable. Except for prestige items like tonics, mini pets and selected cosmetic rewards. RNG dropped cosmetic stuff and ascended gear drops should be tradeable. But i agree if thats not possible then the vendor price should be much more generous for those items.

I agree with making a profit but I do feel that vendor value could be the way to go on that. Far too many skins are brought down to the oh so you paid X gold for it big woop.

As for Ascended: I would speculate that it is not tradeable so that players are actually forced to play the game to get it. I like that idea, it forces a TP trader or gem buyer to actually go and get the stuff themselves , their own bloodstone/emp/dragonite. I like when a player has to do their own dirty work it makes it a game and not a stockmarket.

The problem with vendoring items is that it creates new gold to the system, causing inflation. If raiding main profit would be from that, it would accentuate the problem (perhaps even moreso that dungeon gold rewards). To that end, tradeable goods would be better for a source of profit – TP removes gold from the system, and so holds back rampant inflation. However, not everything should be like that – there’s definitely a need for account bound things for showing off completion of challenging content. So, what if mobs in raids had a considerably increased chance of dropping t6 materials? T6 mats are trade goods with more or less constant value and demand. Too high drop rate in raids might cheapen them too much, but balanced right, it might be just what the economy in the game needs.

That would be a good way to do it. Actually an Orr raid could have a giants eyes , Unid dyes would be another steady possibility or as others stated ectos dropping by themselves too.

runeblade.7514:

Galen Grey.4709:

Crystal Reid.2481:

cesmode.4257:

Hi, I mentioned this in my first post a few moments ago. I could be out of date as well as this mind set that we were given early on…but isn’t the entire game ‘endgame’ ? Hop in, do whatever you want to do. No pressure, nada. Take your time, the whole thing is your oyster. When you start creating level 80 content only, ala raids, you segregate the playerbase much like other games where its then a rush to max level to do the raids. All of the gorgeous 1-80 content you have in this game becomes completely trivial and a stepping stone to the real game. You might as well just allow people to boost to 80 via potions or something and skip leveling all together because it becomes absolutely meaningless. A meaningless time sink. I didnt need 80 levels to learn my class. Maybe less than two dozen and I had it down. The rest was just enjoyment because the 1-80 content was nice. I leveled through it without any pressure. Put max level content in the game, and we will feel rushed to get to the real stuff. Its human nature.

For this reason, I do not think raids belong in GW2. But if they are to be implemented, I do have suggestions which I have shared

I bolded a section of this that I wanted to inquire about. Do you think the fact the game has been live for over 2 years now change your thoughts on this? This is definitely a common occurrence with new MMO’s that launch with raiding, but what about a game that didn’t launch with raiding? Is there still an issue of players “rushing to 80” when a large percentage of the player base already has at least one 80? Thoughts?

Yes I believe its still relevant. Its relevant for new players obviously but also for veterans. Many people create alts and not alts are already level 80. I myself have 4 chars at level 80, 1 thats nearly there, 3 alts that are not 80 yet and 2 free slots that I havent even created a character for. Having played since launch I could easily have gotten all my chars to 80 but because there is no rush I take it easy. Wait around for dynamic events to spawn, explorer outside the beaten path, stop and chat with NPCs etc… However a level 80 raid that requires a fully geared lvl 80 char will be a problem for that play style. If and I definitely will want to try different professions I need to level my chars and work hard if I have to gear them in ascended armor as well. .It will take months per Alt of work and that scares me so to speak or potentially drive me off from raiding with alts.

Then veterans can raid with their level 80 characters. It is not like there is some mystical force stopping you from logging into your level 80 characters.

You misunderstood me. The Issue inst that Veterans cannot enjoy raiding its that they’ll have a strong incentive to level alts quickly to get access to more professions for raiding. For example Warrior is one profession that I dont have at level 80. Now if it turns out (which is kinda likely) that Warriors are pretty good for raids do I have the option of slowly leveling it up over the course of 2 – 3 months in order to stop and smell the roses along the way or do i rush to max level in a week, maybe 2?

Lian Olsam.9541:

hi harper

i dont wanna “destroy zerker” i just wanna have a content with multi gear and multi purpose…. inside the game there is alot of stats, but u will choose only zerk and ptv for other contents… non offence for anet, but i think they wrong something when they had develop dungeons and pve, otherwise why create alot of stats? i never saw all that stats combo in a game, but i will use only 2 (or 3)…

Because no matter how much “variety” there is in the game the bottom line is people will always use what’s best. Because they care about efficiency and getting good rewards fast.

There are many sets in the game and many of them see use in sPVP, WvW and niche areas of PVE.
But for general usage people go with whatever works best. Replacing zerker with something else is the only thing you can achieve by “changing the zerker meta” because in all honesty “multi gear and multi purpose” sounds good in theory but in reality you only want the gear that allows you to get the loot in the easiest and fastest way.

You can’t have multi-purpose in an environment where the only purpose is to obtain rewards.

so why use zerker? use nomad and go to do dungeon in gw2 the gear “support” your build/skills, there is no way to use a full dps weapon and traits with nomad,rabbid,soldier etc etc stats, because it will not work properly….

Nomad is perfectly fine for dungeons – you can run dungeons in nomad and complete just fine.
The issue is that I don’t run nomad in dungeons because I don’t want them to take long. I want my dungeons quick and easy so I can get my rewards. So naturally I’ll use whatever gear gets me that.

It’s not about the gear not being viable – it’s about my choice as a player.

if no one will give you a powerfull support, maybe one of zerk will go for a support builds+support weapon+support gear, changing his role and his purpose in a full support man

So basically you want the encounter to force someone into the “healer” role but simply didn’t explain it like that.

A full zerker player with traits and skills built for support isn’t a DPS with some support. It’s a full support player that can also keep himself alive without requiring gear that helps him do it.

Full support / Half Support / No Support in this game is determined only by traits and skills.

Also the condi thing exists in the game already – but the CC thing – you have people using CC in the game already.

there is not only players who love speed run, there is not only players who love farming, there is also players like me, who wanna challenging content but wanna also have a fun, and more choice you have more fun u can have, and on top of all you can make happy more ppl, because if u love to do max dps, after this, u can keep your role, no one will force you to play differently, but now others ppl can do it if they want…

Who’s stopping you? Go do dungeons – in whatever gear you want. CC mobs all you want. Go full healing power. Nobody is stopping anyone and the game allows almost any party to complete dungeons.

What I feel you want is to force other people to need certain “roles” so you and like minded individuals feel “needed” or “wanted”. That’s just selfish.

spoj.9672:

Conski Deshan.2057:

I (like the person in the post a few above this) second the idea that raids should have unique rewards(account bound), I actually believe all content should have unique rewards (account bound) but that’s another story. The rewards for completing a raid are rewards that show you completed the raid, just a direct x time y effort = z gold is unrewarding and still has top players competing against farmers and gem converters.

The problem with account bound rewards is that they are only rewarding the first time you get them. After that they are completely worthless. So no i dont want to see account bound and soulbound rewards.

I somewhat addressed this in my proposal. The “loot” would be a new tier 7 crafting material only available in the raid. This material could be traded and sold. It would be used to craft weapons from a recipes obtainable from bosses and a crafter that only appears at the end of the raid. This way you get the weapon/armor skins as you want them, but once you have all the ones you want you can sell the mats you get on the TP where they would have some decent price, especially since the crafter is locked behind a skill gate so the prestige will remain even if the underlying mats are tradeable.

Conski Deshan.2057:

Roybe.5896:

Symph.8407:

Astralporing.1957:

The raids, if they are implemented, would indeed need a reward system that is equivalent to time and effort investment. It should not however be visibly more rewarding than other forms of content (again, relatively to time and effort invested). Running raids should definitely not be less rewarding, that running dungeons. It shouldn’t be more rewarding either – or at least the differences should not be huge. So, rewards from, for example, 2 hours of raiding should not be higher that, say, ~4 hours of any other alternate content. And if raids are to offer unique rewards, then any other alternate content should offer equivalent unique rewards as well (though personally i think that there should be nothing in this game that would be available through less than at least two alternate methods – not including TP).

Other content should reward unique rewards, and most of them do. What we miss are unique rewards acquired through skill. We have unique rewards acquired through every other aspect of the game.
And the unique rewards from raids should in no way be available elsewhere, escpecially not on the TP.

What do you consider a ‘unique reward’? How should you receive it, since you want it based on skill? Availability should be very low on these rewards while demand should be very high, why should you limit the income potential of the ‘leet’ professional raider?

Unique skins for weapons and Armor , Cosmetic infusions , Minis, Tonics, play items, titles there is a lot of potential.
On income potential: Raiding should not be about farming for gold, doing a raid is trying to make a statement of your skills and being rewarded for it, like doing liandri. If it was just about gold a raider would still loose to a farmer (TOT’s are potentially 40g an hour) or a gem buyer (unlimited gold).

On Acquisition: I made a proposal around more unique rewards the further you can progress into a raid as guaranteed rewards from bosses (with a caveat of no skipping/piggybacking allowed. With some of the rewards also being RNG. A token system would be a major no no for this type of content.

Unique skins and cosmetic infusions are problematic. Their worth is subjective. I might think that these skins are the most daring and beautiful thing ever created within a game. If many raiders hate them, there is no reward.

Acquisition: I’m dead set against RNG. RNG is not a reward system for skill. It’s a reward for perseverance, and then there’s no guarantee that you will be able to out persevere a run of bad rolls, particularly on 1:1000 chances or worse 1:10,000 chances (these are very common odds on rare items), on content that takes hours to receive a roll. Please explain why a token system is so bad. If you get one guaranteed token at the end of a run for beating the boss and it takes 1,ooo tokens to get a full set of armor and 1 weapon skin, where’s the harm? Other than having the goal to run the content successfully 1000 times.

Harper.4173:

Lian Olsam.9541:

hi harper

i dont wanna “destroy zerker” i just wanna have a content with multi gear and multi purpose…. inside the game there is alot of stats, but u will choose only zerk and ptv for other contents… non offence for anet, but i think they wrong something when they had develop dungeons and pve, otherwise why create alot of stats? i never saw all that stats combo in a game, but i will use only 2 (or 3)…

Because no matter how much “variety” there is in the game the bottom line is people will always use what’s best. Because they care about efficiency and getting good rewards fast.

There are many sets in the game and many of them see use in sPVP, WvW and niche areas of PVE.
But for general usage people go with whatever works best. Replacing zerker with something else is the only thing you can achieve by “changing the zerker meta” because in all honesty “multi gear and multi purpose” sounds good in theory but in reality you only want the gear that allows you to get the loot in the easiest and fastest way.

You can’t have multi-purpose in an environment where the only purpose is to obtain rewards.

so why use zerker? use nomad and go to do dungeon in gw2 the gear “support” your build/skills, there is no way to use a full dps weapon and traits with nomad,rabbid,soldier etc etc stats, because it will not work properly….

Nomad is perfectly fine for dungeons – you can run dungeons in nomad and complete just fine.
The issue is that I don’t run nomad in dungeons because I don’t want them to take long. I want my dungeons quick and easy so I can get my rewards. So naturally I’ll use whatever gear gets me that.

It’s not about the gear not being viable – it’s about my choice as a player.

if no one will give you a powerfull support, maybe one of zerk will go for a support builds+support weapon+support gear, changing his role and his purpose in a full support man

So basically you want the encounter to force someone into the “healer” role but simply didn’t explain it like that.

A full zerker player with traits and skills built for support isn’t a DPS with some support. It’s a full support player that can also keep himself alive without requiring gear that helps him do it.

Full support / Half Support / No Support in this game is determined only by traits and skills.

Also the condi thing exists in the game already – but the CC thing – you have people using CC in the game already.

there is not only players who love speed run, there is not only players who love farming, there is also players like me, who wanna challenging content but wanna also have a fun, and more choice you have more fun u can have, and on top of all you can make happy more ppl, because if u love to do max dps, after this, u can keep your role, no one will force you to play differently, but now others ppl can do it if they want…

Who’s stopping you? Go do dungeons – in whatever gear you want. CC mobs all you want. Go full healing power. Nobody is stopping anyone and the game allows almost any party to complete dungeons.

What I feel you want is to force other people to need certain “roles” so you and like minded individuals feel “needed” or “wanted”. That’s just selfish.

“You can’t have multi-purpose in an environment where the only purpose is to obtain rewards.”

my only purpose with a game is have fun, if i wanna reward i go work

this is gw2 for me, i’ve chose this game because you are not forced to do something 24/24 7/7 for dont be a “looser” and imho they done it really good, but it miss some things other games have… you wrote alot of things and i have the answer for ALL of this but i dont wanna push the topic on this way, will be a neverending discussion i have my ideas and u have yours i dont wanna change yours, difference is ever good, that’s why i’d like to promote it also on gameplay, so EVERYONE can play what they really want, now isnt possible, alot of player say that in game and with alot of topics, so isnt only my feelings, maybe this guys played like me also to other mmo and they know how difference and funny is can play really different with a real different purpose

raids have to be developed by 0, lets try to give to all gw2 players what they want, ppl like u already have the entire game with this mechanics could we hope to have something different for the others?

Can we move the topic past anything involving “stacking” “zerk” or “support”? These topics are doing nothing but provoking arguments and are irrelevant at the same time.

1. Watch a modern raid from any current MMO. FFIX had new raids release this week. SWTOR just finished a raid tier, Wildstar 20 man raids are well documented now. There are times when the raid team HAS to stack together to survive due to the boss mechanics. There are also times when they HAVE to split up to survive due to the boss mechanics. They are ALWAYS in motion, they are almost never static in one spot for very long. We can assume GW2 devs will design raid bosses at least as good as these lesser developers. Since its safe to assume the devs can design good raid bosses talking about “stacking” is not relevant. Move on.

2. People will ALWAYS use whatever the best dps gear they can get and also survive on. As Weth said a long time ago, any content so challenging that experienced players have to take off their berserker gear will be so hard that bad players will cry a river of tears. It makes no sense to discuss this topic here. If the content can be beaten by good players in berserker gear, it will be. If bad players have to use Soldiers gear to clear the content then thats what they will have to do. I don’t see a problem with that system at all. Move on.

3. We can safely assume that raids will requires lots of condition removal, lots of projectile defense, lot’s of blocks and some decent amount of party healing. There is no need, therefore, to harp on the topic of “making support good.” Furthermore, ‘support’ is ALREADY GOOD. Watch any speed run record video, there is tons of support happening in these videos. The support skills are what makes good DPS possible. support will be used in any raid they design, don’t worry about it. Support is already necessary and good. move on.

hybrid.5027:

spoj.9672:

Conski Deshan.2057:

I (like the person in the post a few above this) second the idea that raids should have unique rewards(account bound), I actually believe all content should have unique rewards (account bound) but that’s another story. The rewards for completing a raid are rewards that show you completed the raid, just a direct x time y effort = z gold is unrewarding and still has top players competing against farmers and gem converters.

The problem with account bound rewards is that they are only rewarding the first time you get them. After that they are completely worthless. So no i dont want to see account bound and soulbound rewards.

I somewhat addressed this in my proposal. The “loot” would be a new tier 7 crafting material only available in the raid. This material could be traded and sold. It would be used to craft weapons from a recipes obtainable from bosses and a crafter that only appears at the end of the raid. This way you get the weapon/armor skins as you want them, but once you have all the ones you want you can sell the mats you get on the TP where they would have some decent price, especially since the crafter is locked behind a skill gate so the prestige will remain even if the underlying mats are tradeable.

Thats a good solution to both sides of the arguement. It maintains prestige and provides continuous rewarding loot even when you have already obtained all the end products. I assume this is inspired from gw1’s FoW armour system. But i would also like an increase of quality in trash loot. So increased drops of tier 6 mats and higher chance for random rares and exotics.

And i would still love to see infusion drops in raids. As a very rare drop and with the chance to get infusions which add colour auras as bonus effects. These would definately have to be tradeable or they would have to be very common or purchased with raid mats so you can realistically get a full set of the same colour without completely relying on RNG.