Guild Wars 2

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I don’t think I have anything left to add, being by and large a casual player who used to raid before raids really took off in WoW and other games. I’ve pretty much said everything I could think of on how to handle things (without going into detail just setting up the whole framework) and it’s apparently not in the direction people want to take things so . . .

I don’t think raids, however they are added, are going to be of either use or interest to me. And I don’t think those who would do raids are going to see me as being of use, or interested in allowing me to join in.

Have fun, everyone.

What “scares” me away from “raids” is basically their tendency to be exclusive, rather than inclusive. To me GW2 is about inclusion and freedom-exclusion should be reserved for Guild activities (“we do things this way/prefer you are this type of player”). Indeed what so-called hardcore players sometimes have against GW2 is that their “exclusionary rights” are often “breached”, because it’s for the most part an inclusive game-and I don’t wish that to ever change.

There’s nothing wrong with “hardcoreness”, but it’s not right to push it on players who are not geared that way. Thus making raid content solely for “hardcore play” would be, in my humble view, a mistake.

(Also, never confuse “casual” as “lacking in skill”, because you would be surprised. They can like their games just as much but approach them differently-the “carebear” pejorative attacks and insinuations about their skill are honestly rather preposterous and most likely exaggerations and non-factual.)

If anything, my only word would be for people to be able to select difficulty levels, and for ONLY titles (or things of extreme inconsequence) to be awarded for those who complete successfully the most difficult iterations of these planned instances. Not every “hardcore” player plays only for the challenge, IMHO; many do just because of the carrot. Players who truly love challenges will want to test the hardest instances for the titles alone, not for better drops, etc. (though I admit there’s a possible risk of too much development time/resources for “hard” content designed around a 2%-a number I pulled out of thin air-of people who will do it just for a title.)

(Much like I don’t love JPs, and don’t do them regardless possible AP and titles.-if I felt there were a significant item to be solely obtained from JPs, I would feel cheated, because that’s simply content I don’t particularly enjoy. That said, JP lovers do them all the time, and often not to obtain any unique rewards, but because they are fun to them.)

I have played many “difficult” modes in other games just for fun and the challenge (sometimes just a silly, non-consequential title at most), and I doubt I will be the only one in that respect.

I mean no offense to “hardcore” players. I just believe exclusionary practices should be very limited on GW2, given it’s one of the most (if not THE most) inclusive MMO out there right now. You are entitled to care about your online gaming “social status”, as much as I am entitled to totally ignore it, much like I do in real life as well-we are no different or better from each other just because some are successful doctors, other low-income artists; “just dailies” players, or “hardcore” Dungeon “runners”.

I hope that if they (instanced “raids”) are ever implemented, they are not done in such fashion that we will never be able to fully enjoy them, as you so fear, Mr. Trueflight. May they not provide for a thriving toxic environment.

Feel free to agree disagree; I care not about arguments of this type (“casual” vs “hardcore”) anymore.

Hopeless.5403:

First of all, count me out on raiding with anything more than 10 or more players due to the blinding light(s) not being able to see a boss. Might as well make IO (hero from Dota2) as every boss since that is practically all players can see.

Another issue I would have is the lack of boss abilities or cast bar. Being able to react to certain things during a fight makes it interesting. Currently we’ve had red outlined areas to avoid which is cool up to a certain point.

On the first issue, GW2 seems to work best with smaller groups. Functionally there’s no reason why all 15 people have to be in the same place – you can have 3 parties each having to do their own activity to progress. Even in boss battles, you can have separate groups involved in attacking the boss, defending siege weapons and so on.

Personally I like the idea of groups of adds that are impossible to defeat with 15 people, but if you keep them split up and distracted from the main fight, you never need to engage them fully. So long as the raid narrative makes it clear that you have to do this, it would make good thieves, mesmers or other highly mobile classes vital.

I do miss the full skill bars from GW1 NPCs but to be fair the GW2 versions have been getting better lately. If NPCs are designed as parties for build synergy, it will make things more challenging. Also creates a role for boon strip / interrupt / other CC classes.

Other than going back to the discussion about hardcore vs casual, or “what is fun”, or any of that, since Chris was pretty clear with the purpose of this activity. I think that, since it has been stated that the objective of the idea of Raids is challenging content, then we can just assume that, it has to serve both veteran and new players, in different ways. Challenging content requires practice, mastering, knowledge, this means that the activity should be fun both when you have mastered it (remain challenging) and also during the journey towards that goal, fun to learn, fun to practice. This in my opinion is the best approach to this system, because it also respects the philosophy of the game (a good example is how the leveling process can be seen in this way).

After reading the opinions of many users in this CDI, I think that I will too walk away from the idea of scaling, in favor of better balance and a more challenging experience.
Sadly, I never had the chance to play GW1, but I’m very interested in reading about how content similar to raids in that game, could be adapted to this game. I’m looking forward to read that.

Nokaru.7831:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

2: Foundational raiding mechanics based on the core combat and movement of GW2.

Core Combat:

…

Control:

• Creature Positioning: One drawback of Guild Wars 2 is that it’s difficult to tell who a creature is targeting. If this was made clearer, then positioning a creature could become a more important mechanic. We’ve seen this briefly in fights like the Dredge Fractal with the Dredge Powersuit. Imagine if there was something very simple showing which player had aggro such as, if you targeted a creature, a small red ring would appear under its target to show who it is focused on. This could even promote using this in new ways as well, like “aiming” a boss attack at a location.
• Interrupting: While every player can provide some sort of interrupt, it’s hardly ever needed in the game. The only times I’ve ever bothered with it are against the Molten Alliance Defenders and Tootsie from Dry Top. There are issues of clarity when it comes to creature tells in large groups due to particle effects obscuring it. A PvE cast bar would solve this, but that sort of suggestion is off-topic.

---

Movement:

• Constant Pressure: In WvW, even in the most “zergy” of fights, these fights are very mobile. This is because in these PvP engagements, they are under constant pressure from lots of AoE. This sort of mechanic is not difficult to replicate in PvE. We saw a bit of it during the Queen’s Gauntlet encounter of Salazaan; just imagine it on a larger scale.
• Environmental Hazards: Making the environment the enemy is one of the best ways to engage and challenge players in a fight. The rotating laser walls of , Liadri’s Shadowfall, the trampling centaurs of Kuraii, and the floor of the Thaumanova Anomaly are all great examples of this. They are predictable and thus making them a hazard that is easy to process but remain a constant, looming threat.
• Moving Platforms: We saw these briefly in Super Adventure Box: World 2. I have to ask: Why isn’t this used more? A battlefield being ripped apart and coming together is something I would like to see and can honestly say has not been done in other games.
• Boss “Sweet Spots”: This would require something brand new, but simply put I am unsatisfied with the large stationary bosses that exist. There would be more room to explore positioning if a creature had visible, vulnerable spots; or a boss with different “parts”.
• Spread Out and do “Something”: The Legendary Flame Effigy from Citadel of Flame, Path 1 used to be more challenging on launch. Some groups had to disperse and quickly destroy the crystals and were forced to do that because of how much area these crystals covered and because of the amount they healed for. What this taught me was that forcing a group to cover a lot of ground is one way to encourage movement and spreading out.

I like to add another one, for Control:

Boon Removal: Currently, there are very few encounters in the game that benefit from use of boon removal, to the point where 99% of them are often ignored instead of attempted because most players simply don’t know how to deal with enemies that use boons (case in point, I haven’t killed the skeletal Lich once this Halloween because groups will run past him rather than deal with the buffed mobs that doom most attempts, even though 3-4 Necros or Mesmers with the right skills could easily negate the boons that make that fight so difficult.) Making boon removal a key role for raid groups would add another tool for increasing the challenge of the encounter (not to mention giving Necromancers a place to shine)

Also, Re: “Boss Sweet Spots”: Most stationary bosses do have multiple “parts” that can be targeted separately, so at least half of what your asking for is there. ATM however, there is little reason to do so. I believe that at least 2 of the 3 dragon bosses take more damage on attacks that target the head as oppose to the arms, but other than that, there is nothing really there to promoted targeting one spot over another.

Star Ace.5207:

snip

Make your own groups i guess and organize it by yourself? The only excluding factor would be the guild restriction if it gets implemented that way. Otherwise get a guild or just simply be social and get friends. It’s an MMO anyway.

If the problem here now for you actually is the challenge of the content compared to the rest of the game then why not turn on the “man mode” and beat it? As bad it sounds “casual raids” shouldn’t even exist. Raids are a step up in difficulty compared to other instanced contents just by the sheer amount of players involved which needs a lot more coordination and planning. At least at the initial introduction of the content.

If you are interested in challenging content you play for fun and play it anyway

If you are interested in rewards (which if i had to bet wouldn’t be that great except if we get skins), you know, if you want to achieve or get something maybe work for it.

Exactlly this mindset what frustrates a lot of regular forum users from the Dungeon sub. People in the CDI requires challenging content meanwhile want beat it no matter what they use (gear and build), how many player they have (scaling), what skill they have (pug friendly) therefore turn the whole challenging content into non-challenging.
These proposals aren’t request for challenging content just for a different content that has the same “gimme reward now when i push the i win button” difficulty.
Honorable mention to the exceptions again.

No offense, this is just another psychological issue that can be solved by only yourself. Play it for fun or play it for the reward. If none of them interests you, leave it. If you force yourself anyway, that just your problem.

1: Progression
Progressing though a raid can be done in a wide variety and can have its own unique twist due to the systems in GW2. We can have small raids with only 1-2 bosses to just show of story and get a unique weapon skin, which is build in a way where you go from boss 1 to 2.

Then we can have longer raids with 6 bosses, where each boss by some means give a piece of armor to make a full set. Progressing though this raid can be, kill boss 1 to be able to choose from boss 2-4, once boss 2-4 is killed move on to last 2 bosses of the raid. Underway there can be random event spawning like the cave troll from AC. (And use events in the actual boss fights as added mechanics, read below)

Then we can have the idea of 3 different paths and every small group helps each other by doing tasks on the way to be able to clear trash and get to the actual boss where the groupe either meets to take down a common foe, or 2 groups meet and the 3th group stay and helps the fight from platforms, airships, boats what ever really, depends on the setting of the raid environment.

We can also make a raid with 2-6 bosses where we start at the entrance and can just choose whatever boss we want to kill and once 5 or 1 is dead, we get the final boss.

So many many ways to make progress though raids

What should all be shared among the bosses is. The whole raid is a meta event which would say something along the lines of “This lair belong to Mordremoth, currently the area is controlled by mordrem. Bosses (by name even) defeated.”
Then each boss is a meta under the main area meta. Again this meta has some text describing something.
Then this is where it starts to touch the mechanics part of a boss by using event under the boss meta

2: Foundational raiding mechanics based on the core combat and movement of GW2.
How I see a boss fight is: The boss stands before you in any shape or form and have like 3-5 abilitys which is the bosses main mechanics and is part of a meta (Thies mechanics could be something people in this thread have suggested). Then as written above we have events under the boss meta, which will be something like.
A champion mordrem something has joined the fight.
The pact is joining the fight, defend them as they set up cannons to help against the boss.
Or like with teq, the boss dissapears and we now have to defend the cannons until the boss appears again.

If the mordrem champion joins the fight it could have other mechanics just like a mordrem thrasher. Or even make a new mod design with whole new mechanics. Even imagin a boss that has an event starting which is basically just a random mob from the game comming to aid him, this mob could be a Aetherblade Thug/Taskmaster what ever, and the reason for the mob to be there is because this boss description is “Summons illusions” which is just an event spawning at the same time you fight the boss.

What my idea about mechanics is, is that by using meta events, and events we can make a boss fight be random if we like by having 20 events able to spawn at a boss but only 5 can spawn on one try, or simply being an easy way to change a boss fight completly.
EDIT to make spaces for easier reading, and adding “As always! pm for clarifycation!”

Regarding the reward progression of raid encounters:

I believe there should be:
1. Consistently high (monetary) rewards.

• Doing difficult content with an organized group should be flat out the best way to make money in GW2. There must be a significant difference in compensation between rubbing your face on the keyboard in a zerg (e.g. halloween content, event farm trains, EoTM), and actual difficult content.

• Say a player on his own, doing easy content, can make 10-13g per hour. A raid which is expected to last 2.5 – 3 hours, and has an entrance fee of 10g per person could for example then easily reward 50g per person, or items that can be sold for an equivalent value of 50g. Rewards that could be considered here are ascended armour inscriptions.

2. Longer-term rewards that grant a player status or acclaim.
These can be in the form of skins, titles or other cosmetic items.

• Skins could be used in the same way skins are used to make the current dungeons replayable, by using a token system.
• Other cosmetic items could include: (a) A coloured glow around your character, which increases in intensity as you complete the content more often. (b) A guild emblem shown next to your name in case your guild currently holds the record for being the fastest to complete the raid. © Hard to get finishers/minis

Waikd.4632:

Regarding the reward progression of raid encounters:

I believe there should be:
1. Consistently high (monetary) rewards.

• Doing difficult content with an organized group should be flat out the best way to make money in GW2. There must be a significant difference in compensation between rubbing your face on the keyboard in a zerg (e.g. halloween content, event farm trains, EoTM), and actual difficult content.

• Say a player on his own, doing easy content, can make 10-13g per hour. A raid which is expected to last 2.5 – 3 hours, and has an entrance fee of 10g per person could for example then easily reward 50g per person, or items that can be sold for an equivalent value of 50g. Rewards that could be considered here are ascended armour inscriptions.

I’m pretty sure a lot of people would flip the table due to these.
2-3 hour raids are way too long to this game with this fast paced combat and that amount of gold generated out of thin air is just too much if it’s not weekly gated.

Dalanor.5387:

Exactlly this mindset what frustrates a lot of regular forum users from the Dungeon sub. People in the CDI requires challenging content meanwhile want beat it no matter what they use (gear and build), how many player they have (scaling), what skill they have (pug friendly) therefore turn the whole challenging content into non-challenging.
These proposals aren’t request for challenging content just for a different content that has the same “gimme reward now when i push the i win button” difficulty.
Honorable mention to the exceptions again.

Seen this multiple times in this thread now and would like to post the following clarification:

RE: Difficulty

Allowing content to be scalable; completable with multiple builds, class combinations, gear sets, and whatnot, says nothing about the difficulty of said content.
It is well within the realm of possibility to create a challange with more than one solution.

As multiple people have now voiced said strange comparison between X and Y are the reasons the game isn’t difficult and referenced the dungeon subforums, it is far more likely that this is an idea permeating within the dungeon subforum and not elsewhere in the game. This is not a development problem.

RE: People outside of the Dungeon subforum community

They are not poor players, or whatever. This has never been a we vs them issue.
Please focus on the raiding, not the players. This is not a trial, this is a game development discussion.

Dalanor.5387:

Waikd.4632:

Regarding the reward progression of raid encounters:

I believe there should be:
1. Consistently high (monetary) rewards.

• Doing difficult content with an organized group should be flat out the best way to make money in GW2. There must be a significant difference in compensation between rubbing your face on the keyboard in a zerg (e.g. halloween content, event farm trains, EoTM), and actual difficult content.

• Say a player on his own, doing easy content, can make 10-13g per hour. A raid which is expected to last 2.5 – 3 hours, and has an entrance fee of 10g per person could for example then easily reward 50g per person, or items that can be sold for an equivalent value of 50g. Rewards that could be considered here are ascended armour inscriptions.

I’m pretty sure a lot of people would flip the table due to these.
2-3 hour raids are way too long to this game with this fast paced combat and that amount of gold generated out of thin air is just too much if it’s not weekly gated.

You wouldn’t have to spend all 2-3 hours in there in go. Raids in other games save your progress, there’s no reason why GW2 wouldn’t be able to.

Naetell.3815:

Dalanor.5387:

Exactlly this mindset what frustrates a lot of regular forum users from the Dungeon sub. People in the CDI requires challenging content meanwhile want beat it no matter what they use (gear and build), how many player they have (scaling), what skill they have (pug friendly) therefore turn the whole challenging content into non-challenging.
These proposals aren’t request for challenging content just for a different content that has the same “gimme reward now when i push the i win button” difficulty.
Honorable mention to the exceptions again.

Seen this multiple times in this thread now and would like to post the following clarification:

RE: Difficulty

Allowing content to be scalable; completable with multiple builds, class combinations, gear sets, and whatnot, says nothing about the difficulty of said content.
It is well within the realm of possibility to create a challange with more than one solution.

As multiple people have now voiced said strange comparison between X and Y are the reasons the game isn’t difficult and referenced the dungeon subforums, it is far more likely that this is an idea permeating within the dungeon subforum and not elsewhere in the game. This is not a development problem.

RE: People outside of the Dungeon subforum community

They are not poor players, or whatever. This has never been kitten vs them issue.
Please focus on the raiding, not the players. This is not a trial, this is a game development discussion.

As currently is, dungeons can be beaten in multiple ways. Being full tanky or full offensive works as well and everything in between. But … The problem is, as i interpret the suggestions, that people wish for mish-mash so called “playhowiwant” builds should be viable or simply optimal. You know, no logical choice in traits and skills and little to no synergy. Also about the statement that build choice doesn’t affect difficulty watch this golden piece material please. Slightly outdated but still entertaining.

Scaling would be just bad. First, it would be a nightmare to balance it out. It’s can be an issue already if they tailor it to lvl80 exotic players with a fix number (let’s say 15 players) and now if you add low lvl characters and less than 15 players … Ahh just no.
Secondly it removes a big chunk of competitive potential from the game mode.
You made a world record with a full raid? Yay, you are great!
You made a world record with 5 people? Let me worship you!

Everybody is aware of how the average player performs in GW2, right? No need to
exaggerate, they aren’t that skilled, simple as that. I’m not sure that this is the playerbase ANet should cater with raids even if it’s the majority. No elitism included.

Now let’s pour everyting together and … Where is the challenge if such design points will become a thing? Get my point?

tl;dr:
1. Optimized builds works now and should be work in raids as well.
2. Scaling shouldn’t be an option due to above mentioned reasons.
3. Difficulty should be at least that hard as in other instanced contents.

Naetell.3815:

I’m pretty sure a lot of people would flip the table due to these.
2-3 hour raids are way too long to this game with this fast paced combat and that amount of gold generated out of thin air is just too much if it’s not weekly gated.

You wouldn’t have to spend all 2-3 hours in there in go. Raids in other games save your progress, there’s no reason why GW2 wouldn’t be able to.[/quote]

Agree, i hope ANet manage to implement a way to save progress.

Curious… are raids a definite? Or is the entire possibility still being kicked around?

Im not sure if I mentioned this suggestion in one of my previous posts so I’ll say it again(apologies if it is re-iteration)…

Turn fractals into raids, scalable instances. The fractals that you have are outstanding. Interesting, great environmental mechanic usage, decent boss mechancis(some could use tweaking). The fractal bosses and mechanics are leaps and bounds better than the dungeons.

So why not use what you already have and make fractals scalable up to X amount of players or as low kitten . Isn’t it logical that people who will enjoy and participate in raids be heavily involved in fractals anyways ?

Gear wise: You already have your “progression” system in place with agony resist. This way, the non raiders still do not feel at a disadvantage because they are not raiding. And this, I think, is an important thing to remember. There will be loads more people that won’t want to raid. Keep them in mind more than the people that will raid.

Naetell.3815:

Dalanor.5387:

Exactlly this mindset what frustrates a lot of regular forum users from the Dungeon sub. People in the CDI requires challenging content meanwhile want beat it no matter what they use (gear and build), how many player they have (scaling), what skill they have (pug friendly) therefore turn the whole challenging content into non-challenging.
These proposals aren’t request for challenging content just for a different content that has the same “gimme reward now when i push the i win button” difficulty.
Honorable mention to the exceptions again.

Seen this multiple times in this thread now and would like to post the following clarification:

RE: Difficulty

Allowing content to be scalable; completable with multiple builds, class combinations, gear sets, and whatnot, says nothing about the difficulty of said content.
It is well within the realm of possibility to create a challange with more than one solution.

As multiple people have now voiced said strange comparison between X and Y are the reasons the game isn’t difficult and referenced the dungeon subforums, it is far more likely that this is an idea permeating within the dungeon subforum and not elsewhere in the game. This is not a development problem.

RE: People outside of the Dungeon subforum community

They are not poor players, or whatever. This has never been a we vs them issue.
Please focus on the raiding, not the players. This is not a trial, this is a game development discussion.

You can’t have a raid be doable with any build/class you want. Well, you can, but there’s no point doing that because everyone will end up using the most efficient setup anyways.

The only reason tanks and healers exist in MMOs is because the game specifically needs them in the solution. If you get rid of that enforced restriction, then we’ll just get a repeat of what we have now: everyone running the same full zerker builds.

On the point of the topic. It’s going to sound weird, but I don’t think the raid should be very challenging, at least not at same level as Wildstar or WoW.

Look at the game at the moment. There’s nothing preparing you for challenging content. There’s Arah P4 and Aetherpath but they are barely run, so to add a really difficult raid would be a complete curveball.

I foresee logistical issues with saved progress. Specifically, that just adds to the number of sessions where you have to get all the same people together before you can continue what you were doing. If it doesn’t have to be the same people, then there is the problem of who “controls” the save? Who gets to continue deeper in the raid when they feel like it even if those who helped get that far are left out?

If we need to have longer and more complex scenarios that do take several sessions, then perhaps it should be in the form of unlocks rather than saved stages. Even then I can imagine a lot of divisions coming from leaving some behind. Or should it be like the LS where if you’ve made it to a certain point you can invite others along regardless of their progress? Though that assumes the ones who missed a session will be able to find a large enough group to continue. And that they’ll be welcome in later parts of the raid if they didn’t help in the middle parts.

The more people you have to gather to do specific content, the greater the problem in repeatedly gathering them.

I would personally love to see raids where the groups of enemies have inherent ‘weak links’ that need to be hit first, lest the group becomes a huge problem. GW1 handled this particular aspect of combat really well, but it’s still something missing from GW2 for the most part. That fear of not properly bursting down the healer of the group, or the Mesmer that will ruin your caster’s day was always something that made each engagement, well, engaging!

In fact, I feel a lot of the more interesting skills from GW1 could be brought back for raid mechanics. For example, a raid with a variation of the GW1 Mesmer’s ‘Panic’ skill in effect would be fantastic (upon using a weapon skill, interrupt all allies within a 200 radius – bypassing stability to prevent easy mechanic negation). This would need to be in tandem with fights which do not involve singular ‘big’ targets though, so that melee could still be useful. Whole parties of purely melee would not be viable in such a raid, however. The point of such a mechanic would be to force players to use movement that isn’t simply ‘stack on a wall’ and naturally make the fight a bit more skilful.

In this post – https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Guilds-Raiding/page/18#post4530789 – I outlined a raid concept.

Following the direction from Chris, Im going to take a boss from that concept and outline potential fight mechanics that fit current combat and movement models in GW2, but that would still challenge a raid party.

The Centaur Shaman

The Centaur Shaman would be positioned just outside of Stonebore Vaults, where it has erected a giant stone door to bar progress into the centaur encampment (where the final boss waits). The party must defeat the Shaman and destroy the door.

The Shaman is a stationary boss with the fight revolving around player positioning and adds management. It would be broken into three phases, as follows:

Phase One – Earth (100% down to 60 percent health)

In this phase, the Shaman doesnt see us as a threat, so it is more about avoiding damage and burning him to 60%. Abilities used would be:

• Summon Earth Elementals: The boss begins summoning veteran earth elementals every few seconds. If they are not kept under control, they will overwhelm the party. The earth elementals also leave trails of mud behind them, crippling any player who walks through them. An elementals trail dissipates when that elemental dies.

• Earthquake: The ground quakes near the shaman at periodic intervals, doing damage and knockdowns – forcing melee temporarily out of range.

Phase Two – Earth and Air (entered when the boss reaches 60% health)

The abilities from phase one continue, with the following added:

• Summon Air Elementals: In addition to the earth elementals (which continue to spawn), the boss begins to summon veteran air elementals as well. The air elementals leave temporary spark lines behind them as they travel that stun and damage anyone walking through (again, the lines dissipate when the elemental dies).

• Reflecting Winds: In addition to earthquake, the boss begins periodically casting swirling winds that reflect projectiles back at ranged attackers. From this point on, the boss is always casting either earthquake or swirling winds.

Phase Three – Earth, Air and Fire (when the shaman reaches 30%)

When the shaman reaches 30% health, he draws any remaining earth and air elementals to himself and absorbs their strength. For every elemental still alive going into this phase, his damage increases exponentially.

At this point, he transforms himself into a massive earth elemental that is 100% immune to all party damage.

He stops summoning air and earth elementals, but instead casts the following abilities:

• Enhanced Earthquake. The earthquake now extends 2000 feet in all directions and is cast 100% of the time (persistent damage). There is no longer a knockdown and the base damage is much less than it was in the first wo phases, but it scales based on the number of elementals he absorbed (meaning it could be raid wiping). This mechanic has two purposes – to force the raid to coordinate and not let the boss hit 30 % while elementals are still alive – and to force the raid to get through the last phase as fast as possible – before they all die to the damage.

• Chain Lightning: The swirling winds are gone. Instead he will periodically cast chain lightning. This will only be used against ranged targets.

• Summon Fire Elementals: During the last phase, he will begin summoning fire elementals that leave lines of burning flame behind them as they travel (again, lines dissipate on elemental death). More importantly, these elementals explode when they die. They are cc-able (which will be important for the final mechanic).

• Superheated: If a fire elemental explodes within range of the boss (which is why they are cc-able), the boss gains a stack of superheated. When the shaman gets five stacks of superheated, it becomes vulnerable to damage from the party. If it gets 10 stacks, it takes double damage (and so on). However, the stacks do fall off (forcing the raid to decide – do we let 5 get out just to get him to the threshhold or do we wait until 10 or 15 are out to obtain the damage multiplier and spike him down faster). This is how you defeat the boss.

When the shaman (now a massive superheated rock elemental) dies, it explodes in fireball large enough to destroy the giant rock barring entrance into Stonebore Vaults, allowing the players access to the area where they will fight the Centaur Chieftain, the final boss in the raid.

You asked us to theory craft around the current movement and combat mechanics in the game, so there you go (keeping in mind I am not a game developer). This is just a rough example of the kind of raid fights I would like to see.

I was going to theorycraft the second boss in the raid concept later this weekend or next week if I have time.

If this is not helpful, please let me know.

Reward progressiong in raid
Rewards for raids should be unique armor for that raid, or weapons where we have two versions of them. First version is a less impressive weapon or armor and the second version is a more impressive version of the armor or weapon because you are doing it on a higher difficulity, just like the Glorious Heros armor is a more impressive reward for doing well in the PvP tournaments and the Glorious armor is the same just less impressive and obtainable by everyone simply by playing pvp in any mode.
Other rewards could be minis from that raid ONLY, tonics, special dyes, a new kind of upgrade to weapons that changes a greatswords swing to have a firey trail, an upgrade that gives a staff an icy look, stuff like that. Crafting recipes you can earn elsewhere in the game like the Geode recipes, this is just an alternative way to get them, could even be new recipes to make a tonic that also has a chance to drop in the raid.

Here we have to have 3 different modes, just as I have described in my post on page 18.

first mode “tourist mode” is just normal ascended armor and/or exotics for defeating bosses which you get from an achivement for that boss which resets weekly or every second week depending on how long the raid is. The boss could also spawn a chest at its feet which gives a chance for the tonics, recipes and other goodies.

second mode is same size as the first mode, but this time around scaled a little higher/with more events (Read my post on page 20) Here we also have achivements for each boss which gives ascended armor/weapons and a chance for a skin unlock of the less impressive armor/weapon which again resets weekly or every second week. Again a chest spawns with the usual stuf in it.

third mode is a slightly higher group size and again scaled even higher with more events being able to spawn during the fight. Now again achivements which gives a chance for ascended and the more impressive armor/weapon and the usual chest.

Then there is room to add a bonus chest, like the one above your minimap for defeating a World boss. Here the devs can decide which extra goodies people can get this week if they decide to make a special week for raids.
All of these modes should be places under “Daily & Monthly” achivement categori (This will fill it up really quickly)
And then we can add a new tab called “Raids” where we have the different raids with challenging achivements that gives titles and other stuff.

What will get people to play this is the chance for a new unique skin and almost 100% chance to get an ascended piece. Even this ascended pieces could have a new look to them so there is even more reason to do the raids.

Blaeys.3102:

You asked us to theory craft around the current movement and combat mechanics in the game, so there you go (keeping in mind I am not a game developer). This is just a rough example of the kind of raid fights I would like to see.

I was going to theorycraft the second boss in the raid concept later this weekend or next week if I have time.

If this is not helpful, please let me know.

This sounds like a really really fun boss to fight against! If they dont use this idea you bet I am at some point going to make this into a fight in some game!

Raid example: Mordremoth

Deep in the jungle, a group of heroes face the Elder Dragon Mordremoth.
The Elder Dragon eyes the heroes, before any of them can make a move, he summons vine walls sweeping through the area, blocking the path to him.
The heroes have to cut their way through the vines, careful not to hit the poisonous ones, for they spell certain death. While they are hacking a path to the dragon, they are assailed by Elite Mordrem from all sides. During this chaos, one hero has to carry the Corrupted Magic Bomb, the only weapon that can weaken the Elder Dragon.
If the heroes do not reach Mordremoth in time, he unleashes his powerful breath attack that is sure to send the heroes back to square one. Time is short, and while the heroes reach the dragon, they know the worst is yet to come.
The bomb is set in position, and the dragon is weakened. Mordremoth roars as he loses his focus momentarily and sweeps wildly with his talons and wings.

The heroes attack the dragon, but his scales are tough and conditions don’t seem to stick to him.
Mordremoth, now annoyed, targets one of the heroes and brings his claw down. The hero evades, but the shockwave hits several others and knocks them down.
Upon seeing someone knocked down, Mordremoth wastes no time and summons thorny vines from the ground, tying these heroes up while causing massive bleeding. If the struck heroes are not freed, they don’t have long.
At the same time, other heroes have reached his the tail of the beast, and attack it from behind while being wary of his tail sweeps and hind legs, for a mere touch of those would knock them back or down, sentencing them to the same thorny doom.

The corruption is taking its toll on the dragon as seconds pass. His attacks slow down, he’s getting out of breath. The dragon slumps, and calls for his champions.
Three massive champions drop down while Mordremoth begins channeling a spell to restore his strength.
These champions look alike, but each has different properties. The locations of which champion spawns where is random. There is no way for the heroes to know what these champions are other than figuring it out as fast as possible.
On top of that, these champions are linked to each other, and will not fall untill all of them do.
One champion is weak to conditions, but one of his skills will convert conditions into boons. Non-condition damage will heal him instead.
Another champion is weak to direct damage, but has permanent retaliation, and every condition on him will increase his power exponentially. He has a draw conditions to himself spell, so keep him away from the others.
The third champion is perhaps the strangest, no attack seems to work on him, but he also deals very little damage. In fact, his attack skills have incredible hit counts, but each hit doesn’t do more than 2 to 3 damage to the heroes by itself. If this champion is near the other champions though, he will heal them.

If the champions fall before Mordremoth’s spell is finished, the heroes can directly attack the Elder Dragon and hopefully leave a dent on him.
The dragon recovers and lets out a massive shockwave, knocking the heroes to the sides of the arena before he casts his vine maze spell again.

When Modremoth is wounded, he will get angry, at which point he will spend less time trying to mend himself and more time trying to destroy his opponents. Cycles get longer, his attack patterns change, and the jungle grows thicker.
Over time, visibility will decrease as light fades and darkness takes hold of the arena.

If Mordremoth is almost defeated, he will use his wings to shield himself while summoning a horde of champions to protect him, sharing his power with them while he draws life from the earth itself.
For each of these champions defeated, the other remaining champions become stronger. If all champions are defeated, Mordremoth resumes his fight against the heroes. For every minute the champions are not defeated, Mordremoth regains 5% of his Max HP.

So, was everyone able to picture how it would feel to fight this thing?

The Comfy Chair.7265:

I would personally love to see raids where the groups of enemies have inherent ‘weak links’ that need to be hit first, lest the group becomes a huge problem. GW1 handled this particular aspect of combat really well, but it’s still something missing from GW2 for the most part. That fear of not properly bursting down the healer of the group, or the Mesmer that will ruin your caster’s day was always something that made each engagement, well, engaging!

In fact, I feel a lot of the more interesting skills from GW1 could be brought back for raid mechanics. For example, a raid with a variation of the GW1 Mesmer’s ‘Panic’ skill in effect would be fantastic (upon using a weapon skill, interrupt all allies within a 200 radius – bypassing stability to prevent easy mechanic negation). This would need to be in tandem with fights which do not involve singular ‘big’ targets though, so that melee could still be useful. Whole parties of purely melee would not be viable in such a raid, however. The point of such a mechanic would be to force players to use movement that isn’t simply ‘stack on a wall’ and naturally make the fight a bit more skilful.

Weak spots and all are cool, but I don’t think very fitting in GW2 tab target style. I mean, you can do it in GW2 but then it just becomes another target to tab to assuming your tab targeting priority is actually working. For one reason or another, mine has always been messed up.

In actual true-action combat games where you use a crosshair to target, something like this becomes 100% more interesting.

about progression I want to ask you (players as well as devs) a question:

How do you feel about the agony resist system from fractals? Do you see any cons to this system? What are they and how do you think these could be fixed?

I really like the concept of agony, having an impact on the fractals only and no use outside of these mini-dungeons. I could imagine that this system would work fine in raids as well.

Xae Isareth.1364:

You can’t have a raid be doable with any build/class you want. Well, you can, but there’s no point doing that because everyone will end up using the most efficient setup anyways.

The only reason tanks and healers exist in MMOs is because the game specifically needs them in the solution. If you get rid of that enforced restriction, then we’ll just get a repeat of what we have now: everyone running the same full zerker builds.

On the point of the topic. It’s going to sound weird, but I don’t think the raid should be very challenging, at least not at same level as Wildstar or WoW.

Look at the game at the moment. There’s nothing preparing you for challenging content. There’s Arah P4 and Aetherpath but they are barely run, so to add a really difficult raid would be a complete curveball.

Actually, even if you wouldn’t enforce tanks and healers, you’d still get tanking and healing in raiding content in WoW. Imagine if everyone has a self-heal skill and a dodge button in that game. Would that reduce the need for tanks and healers? Sure.
Would running 25 DPS in a raid be the most efficient at that point? Nope.
23 DPS, 1 tank, and 1 healer would be the most efficient, because that would reduce the need for the 23 DPS to dodge, and thus they wouldn’t lose cycles to dodging motions. Said lost cycles will be greater in DPS than the damage added by 2 other players. That’s the reason no one runs full DPS skills in GW2 either.

I know the line of thought though. I’ve been a top DPS raiding player in WoW back in the day. Amongst DPS players, there is this idea that DPS is all that matters, and everyone else is just there to make sure you can do your thing. You’re the most important one, after all. No DPS, no dead boss.
There’s also the popular notion that everyone would play DPS if they could, because clearly it is the most fun to play. Healing is just filling bars, and tanking is just pressing 5 buttons over and over again while watching an aggro bar fill up.

That’s nothing to say about the other roles, which have been so generously forgotten by today’s MMO design.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

about progression I want to ask you (players as well as devs) a question:

How do you feel about the agony resist system from fractals? Do you see any cons to this system? What are they and how do you think these could be fixed?

I really like the concept of agony, having an impact on the fractals only and no use outside of these mini-dungeons. I could imagine that this system would work fine in raids as well.

As an actual mechanic, agony is completely lazy. Having, at times, unavoidable damage being negated by some stat on your gear becomes a numerical dance rather than strategical. Id rather be able to avoid damage and progress rather than move my peg across a matrix of numbers and find out where I’ll max out at.

Basically, its a numbers game rather than actually playing the game….thats my take on it.

As a way to keep the non-raiders and raiders on equal playing field: Sure it does the job. Ive already suggested expanding the fractal system to include raids for this very reason.

But on a whole, agony is a lazy cheap mechanic (as is one-shot boss mechanics).

Hey,
Just wanted to toss out a few boss fights from other games and a brief summary of their key mechanics for ideas: (some of these are my favs and most of them I haven’t done in years so..if memory serves…)

WoW:
Valithria Dreamwalker: Healers “fly” in a dream and catch powerboost bubbles. Once they exit the dream they have boosted healing to heal up a subdued dragon. Tanks and DPS fight off mobs entering the room from either side. Fight is compelted once dreamwalker is healed up completely(shes a good guy/gal).

Ragnaros(cataclysm): This fight.. My guild was horrible, but the fight itself was very mechanical. Striped bad floor that would be random. 5-7(I think) mobs that would spawn and need to be dps’d down asap. Stacking for heals. Spreading out on either side and bouncing comets across the room via DPS while DPS’ing the boss as well. This part was exceptionally cool.

Alysrazor: Tanks and DPS take care of adds below while one or two people “fly” around dps’ing the boss. To stay flying they need to capture flight boosts. At certain points, everyone is grounded and fire tornados spawn in random locations and travel at random speeds and directions. Rinse/Repeat until boss lands and its a dps race if I remember.

Sindragosa : Im not going to explain it because Im trying to forget the dozens of hours spent on this one. Look it up. Frustratingly beautiful.

Gruul: Simple tank and spank. Need to kill him quickly otherwise he continues to grow in strength and size. Avoidable environmental damage, etc. Simple tank and spank with a few twists.

Chess Event(karazhan): Non-combative(in the sense that you don’t use your abilities) but you play chess pieces and fight other chess pieces. Very creative.

Wildstar:
Experiment X-89: Fun fight. If you are targeted and do not move away from the group to the smallest area of the floor you can explode the entire floor your raid is standing on and wipe everyone.

Dalanor.5387:

As currently is, dungeons can be beaten in multiple ways. Being full tanky or full offensive works as well and everything in between. But … The problem is, as i interpret the suggestions, that people wish for mish-mash so called “playhowiwant” builds should be viable or simply optimal. You know, no logical choice in traits and skills and little to no synergy. Also about the statement that build choice doesn’t affect difficulty watch this golden piece material please. Slightly outdated but still entertaining.

Actually, I’ve solod CM path 3 naked and traitless before, with just my exotic weapons just to prove the point that gear and traits are pointless in this game right now.
So, that doesn’t mean full tanky or full offensive are equal. They’re viable, sure, but so is going naked. I don’t think that’s how the game should be balanced.

The call and want for these ‘playhowIwant’ builds are much less a thing than the forums would have it seem. In the game, I haven’t met anyone who thinks any combination of traits/gear/skills should work. For discussion purposes, it’s no more than a strawman argument.

Also, ‘hey, I found something broken, let’s generalise,’ is often not a good idea either.
That’s why patching and rebalancing exists. Oneshotting bosses etc falls in the same category as being invincible.

Dalanor.5387:

Scaling would be just bad. First, it would be a nightmare to balance it out. It’s can be an issue already if they tailor it to lvl80 exotic players with a fix number (let’s say 15 players) and now if you add low lvl characters and less than 15 players … Ahh just no.
Secondly it removes a big chunk of competitive potential from the game mode.
You made a world record with a full raid? Yay, you are great!
You made a world record with 5 people? Let me worship you!

Oh please. It’s one thing not to have any faith in the developers’ math skills, but this is just looking at it in one specific way only.
Instead of scaling the low lvls up like in WvW, or scaling the raid down, you could just make them temporary lvl 80’s while in the raiding zone wearing raiding zone exotic gear. They wouldn’t be underpowered or overpowered, and you can still do one better by actually being 80 and showing up in full ascended.

Scaling by numbers, the developers know the answer to that better than we do, and in fact, that question has already been answered. So, no worries there.

Dalanor.5387:

Everybody is aware of how the average player performs in GW2, right? No need to
exaggerate, they aren’t that skilled, simple as that. I’m not sure that this is the playerbase ANet should cater with raids even if it’s the majority. No elitism included.

Now let’s pour everyting together and … Where is the challenge if such design points will become a thing? Get my point?

Skill is not set in stone. It’s a function measured in time. With raids, these players will have more opportunities to become better players.
Their personal performance should not, and does not, dictate where the raiding discussion goes.
Otherwise they’d be hosting a CDI for gamedevs only, I’d imagine.

The concern that a ‘less-skilled’ player’s idea of challenging isn’t the same that as of another player, is moot. Even between players of equal skill, there’s little definition of what’s challenging and what’s not. With the prevalence and popularity of Dark Souls, I think many players know the difference between a challenge, a theme park ride, and ‘I Want To Be The Guy’ even if they cannot complete all of those.

Dalanor.5387:

tl;dr:
1. Optimized builds works now and should be work in raids as well.
2. Scaling shouldn’t be an option due to above mentioned reasons.
3. Difficulty should be at least that hard as in other instanced contents.

As an ex-raider myself, I will reinforce the idea that one build shouldn’t work for all raids, just like all builds shouldn’t work for all raids. Every raid should have its own quirks and mechanics to promote players trying new things with their characters.

As for 3, I agree, and I’d prefer difficulty to be a lot higher than that; but that’s just me. ^^

cesmode.4257:

Snip…

To remind everyone of early WoW days pain, I have the following two words for you:
Mushroom Dragon.

cesmode.4257:

But on a whole, agony is a lazy cheap mechanic (as is one-shot boss mechanics).

thanks for your take on this

Hmm, so your alternative to having unavoidable damage would be avoidable damage? But wouldn’t this lead to one-shot boss mechanics if the damage becomes high enough?

I guess you’d rather see more boss-mechanics the higher the fractal-level, no?

Personally I would love to see such sort of progression. Could we tie this to items like the agony infusions? Example: the infusions you get don’t act against any sort of damage, but instead make bosses do new skills on the player with this infusion while at the same time unlock a new tier of possible rewards. Players without the infusion wouldn’t be targetted by those new attacks but those players would have no chance for the next tier of cosmetic rewards.

I see some discussion about splitting up raid groups. Like 3 groups of 5 of a 15 man group.

I am against this in any way.

This is no different than a harder to group dungeon team. I rather have ANet balance around 15 man group.

could there be raid encounters where the size of the group would make little difference (in a certain intervall, like 10-25 players)?

What if only 10 people could do damage to the boss at any given time, and the player who had the power would eventually lose it so that others could give their best too?

example: a boss randomly targets a player and hits him hard. If the player takes damage but survives the attack, the player would get an enrage-buff. This would happen 10 times, after that the boss won’t do this attack anymore. 10 players would be “enraged” and could damage the boss. The rest of the group would have other tasks, like kiting some invulnerable strong but slow enemies etc.

I just feel like it’s very possible to create raid-mechanics which allow a freedom of player-numbers, so no need for scaling-mechanics or fixed raid sizes.

different raids, different ways to make this mechanic work:

enraged = being able to damage the boss

• raid A: the boss hits 10 players, survivors of the attack enrage
• raid B: the boss-arena has a jumping puzzle attached, the first 10 players who make it to the goal-location get the enrage-buff. The boss will try to hinder the jumpers, so others will have to try to get his attention.
• raid C: players who can ressurect one of the 10 dead npcs in an area get the enrage buff. NPCs will die again so other players can ress them
• raid D : up to 10 players who can manage to stay close to a certain npc will get the enrage buff after a certain amount of time. It’s a chase-like battle.

Hello folks,
Mainly I stalk the CDI’s and read every but of them but this time I came a tad bit late so I didn’t read everything, excuse me if I repeat earlier ideas.

Progression inside a raid instance:

-Core DNA that I think are devalue content:

1.Stacking players in a safe spot/hot spot.
2.Use of ranged weapons to avoid being hit at all.
3.Flaming boss, misting telegraphed attacks.

-Solutions:

1.Stacking players receive more DMG or a proximity condition.
2.Aggro pulling on high DMG ranged or untouched ranged players.
3.Reducing effects on mob/boss or enlarging it.

-Core DNA I enjoy and would like to see used in raids:

• Jumping Puzzles: Separating paths into actual exploration choices: The Mob, The traps, The JP.
• Floating-moving platforms- let’s say a 1-2 person weight enchanted rock flying above boiling magma to avoid stacking and train jumping/dodge jumping skills.
• Dynamic Events/Temple Mechanics: Temple events in Orr for instance could be a nice way to progress inside a raid to move onward unlocking the next stage.

Progress- Loot/Gear/Crafting/Skins:

WARNING THIS IS GOING TO SOUND CRAZY

• Our economy evolves around crafting.
• Early dawn for GW2, Bundle weapons were a thing, a huge thing for some.
• Siege weapons in WvW are something that haven’t surfaced to PvE yet.

Here’s how all these combine:
Entering a raid won’t let you complete it in one go. To progress through the battlefield you need to bring in weapons and siege engines.
Some parts (“wings”) require specific weapon bundles or siege to fight through.
These Siege weapons and bundle weapons are crafted from materials gained through the raid instance itself.

You can even take this concept to the extent that some crafting trading skills require the product of a different trading skill and combine an entire guild effort to craft these Siege/Bundle weapons in order to progress inside the raid.

- Example for bundle weapon:
A gas thrower meant to slay X mob in certain pathway (I dunno which mob, mutant rats if you’d like. have some imagination!).

- Example for Siege weapon: Oh come on! haven’t you looked around Black Citadel?! All these wasted tanks and siege engines!

well that’s about what I had in mind, I know it’s not written in a CDI quality but I had to share what’s on my mind for once.

RAID MODES, SIZES, ROLES & THE DEBATE

INCLUSIVITY

Inclusivity is a touchy subject as may have differing opinions on this.

It’s not like you are excluding your 6th guild member would be from a 5 man dungeon they can just use the LFG system or ask other guild members.

It seems these raids will be a guild activity; excluding anyone from your guild raid would feel like not inviting your sibling to your own wedding.

Although a scaling raid changing dynamically to how ever many people showed up that day would be nice, it would be a nightmare to create and balance.

How Punishing should dying be? Regardless of raid size your death will harm the group’s performance somewhat, smaller groups more than others.

RAID SIZES: Pros Vs Cons

10 – 150 Scaling raid

Pros:

• Inclusivity! all can come and have fun.
• No punishment for not bringing enough people.

Cons:

• Encounter design will eventually become stale as there are only so many mechanics that can scale well between those values.

10 – 15 Small guild sized raid

Pros:

• Small amount of members leads to each individual player having more of a role and feeling significant.
• Organization is easier and communication faster.
• Encounters and mechanics can be balanced easier around smaller groups.

Cons:

• Less inclusive, specially to larger guilds
• While having ones role mean significantly more it also means if they fail its more likely to cause a wipe.
• Higher pressure to perform well, emotions may flare when something goes wrong.

15 – 25 Medium guild size raid

Pros:

• Larger inclusivity
• Part of the challenge is the organization, nicely devisable number if you have split up events / bosses.

Cons:

• If you can’t get enough people you can’t raid.
• Small guilds will struggle to get this may to the raid.

25 – 40 Large guild size raid

Pros:

• Probably the largest raid you can get and still have reasonable organization.

Cons:

• Large scale raid on the cusp of becoming “too zergy”
• Even medium sized guilds will struggle to get this many people.
• Lower vetting standard all are permitted regardless just to fill the numbers.

40 – 80 WvW zerg size raid

Pros:

• Teamwork and synergy with boons fields and movement are fun when mastered.

Cons:

• Hive mind mentality tends to occur, mainly all follow one person as a “blob”.

80 – 150 World mega boss zerg size raid

Pros:

• Large scale challenge unique to that of GW2 building new communities to combat them. (Tequatl & Triple Trouble)

Cons:

• Communication and preparation are very long winded and eventually become tiresome. (I commanded world first wurm kill at amber head)

RAID MODES
Various raid modes have been suggested but most agree one mode that fits all would be best. But many have different ideas as to how hard it should be and how many people should fit inside.

HARD MODE
Making content that is tailored to the tippy top of players is only exclusive BUT! A hard mode variant of the same content just for prestige. Would this keep people satisfied?

IRON MAN MODE
Some people like to punish themselves. (Not a serious suggestion)

RAID ROLES

Build diversity should be promoted through event / boss mechanics.

There are lots of builds out there but so far content has directed to time efficiency with all berserker gear and damage builds. Some say it’s due to the effectiveness of dodges, agis, reflects and how they are just as effective with defensive stats as offensive ones. To farther variety skills should scale with stats but this is a topic for another thread in the future.

It’s no longer as simple as tank, heal and DPS. Guildwars2 doesn’t have traditional roles but each profession dips its toe in several pools.

• Melee damage: Being in melee range is the highest damage but also the most risky.

• Range Damage: Range is for situations where it’s not possible to melee or you are playing it safe to counter an event mechanic.

• Condition damage: Condition vulnerable enemies, such as wurm husks. Removal of the condition duration from the unshakable buff and have unique player conditions.

• Kiting: Aggro of the boss or mobs should feel less random, maybe focusing their gaze onto a specific player through mechanics. (ooze attractant)

• Runner: When things require you move fast this is your guy! See that button? Go press it! Pressure plate over there? He’s on it!

• Reviver: A troop of people able to pick up the downed as fast as possible, and have the best chance of reviving a fully downed player. (not sure)

• Support boons: Primary focus on keeping up vital boons for survival such as: agis, vigor and protection also using appropriate combo fields.

• Support reflects: Supports the raid by placing well aimed and timed reflect spells to counter projectiles.

• Support Condition removal: Exactly what it says on the tin, removes conditions were applicable.

• Crowd Control: Slowing and knocking back of enemies running towards your more vulnerable players.

Encounters should be designed with every role in mind and carefully consider what each could do before excluding one.

Why spend extra development time on saving progress etc. when you could just have shorter raids?

Or perhaps a raid could be split into four parts, each taking about an hour to complete?

runeblade.7514:

I see some discussion about splitting up raid groups. Like 3 groups of 5 of a 15 man group. … This is no different than a harder to group dungeon team. I rather have ANet balance around 15 man group.

That’s precisely what it is, a harder multi-team dungeon. What gameplay advantage is there to 15 people together?

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

about progression I want to ask you (players as well as devs) a question:

How do you feel about the agony resist system from fractals? Do you see any cons to this system? What are they and how do you think these could be fixed?

I really like the concept of agony, having an impact on the fractals only and no use outside of these mini-dungeons. I could imagine that this system would work fine in raids as well.

That touches on something that’s been … worrying? Mildly concerning? me about some of the “raid gear” comments. While I can see the reasoning behind it, and certainly do not demand it not be done, I personally have enough bag space issues — and always will, no matter how much bag space I get, I’m a packrat in games — that I shudder at the idea of a) having to haul around a whole extra set specifically for raids and b) having to remember to swap it out based on what I’m doing in game.

I think I’ve gone as far as Fractal 20, with just a bit of resist. More than that and the need for AR has been a disincentive for me to push any further. I could be alone in that, or I could be one of tens of thousands. I would prefer not to have a gear gate to being able to even participate.

Doing lockouts by individual advancement presents problems as well. Your 15 raiders have made it to phase three, hurrah! But then two of them have to go to a wedding on raid night, their slots are pugged, and the next session, what? Everyone has to stay in phase three until the laggards catch up?

I vastly prefer that advancement and progression rely on individual skill improvement in the encounters and scenarios rather than external obstacles to entry.

Ben K.6238:

That’s precisely what it is, a harder multi-team dungeon. What gameplay advantage is there to 15 people together?

more difficult and complex mechanics that involve 15 people? thats the advantage. the only place where splitting is good is open world zerg events.

Most of the combat involving larger numbers of people simply comes down to stacking and DPS tests, which require less skill, not more. Hence my question – is there any way that bringing larger numbers into one fight can still require skilled play from every member, and do so in a way that you can’t replicate with a smaller group?

One notable exception is GvG combat, where the mechanics are completely different from 5v5 fights and you die very fast if you don’t know what you’re doing. Perhaps that might be a good source of inspiration – but it would require someone with more experience than me to explain the mechanics of it.

Ben K.6238:

runeblade.7514:

I see some discussion about splitting up raid groups. Like 3 groups of 5 of a 15 man group. … This is no different than a harder to group dungeon team. I rather have ANet balance around 15 man group.

That’s precisely what it is, a harder multi-team dungeon. What gameplay advantage is there to 15 people together?

Uh no, you mis-read what I said. Harder to group as in: Pain in the kitten to find members for the raid group.

The advantage is harder content that is for 15 people instead of 5 people. If ANet wants dungeons in a raid, then they can make more dungeons instead of hyping up raids. If ANet wants dungeon to be harder, they can buff the mobs to make it harder.

Ben K.6238:

Most of the combat involving larger numbers of people simply comes down to stacking and DPS tests, which require less skill, not more. Hence my question – is there any way that bringing larger numbers into one fight can still require skilled play from every member, and do so in a way that you can’t replicate with a smaller group?

One notable exception is GvG combat, where the mechanics are completely different from 5v5 fights and you die very fast if you don’t know what you’re doing. Perhaps that might be a good source of inspiration – but it would require someone with more experience than me to explain the mechanics of it.

watch this and pay attention to the eggs. if you dont understand what is happening there i will explain it.
but you will never be able to put mechanics like that into smaller group content or dungeons.

TPenny.5071:

RAID MODES
Various raid modes have been suggested but most agree one mode that fits all would be best. But many have different ideas as to how hard it should be and how many people should fit inside.

HARD MODE
Making content that is tailored to the tippy top of players is only exclusive BUT! A hard mode variant of the same content just for prestige. Would this keep people satisfied?

IRON MAN MODE
Some people like to punish themselves. (Not a serious suggestion)

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RAID ROLES

Build diversity should be promoted through event / boss mechanics.

There are lots of builds out there but so far content has directed to time efficiency with all berserker gear and damage builds. Some say it’s due to the effectiveness of dodges, agis, reflects and how they are just as effective with defensive stats as offensive ones. To farther variety skills should scale with stats but this is a topic for another thread in the future.

It’s no longer as simple as tank, heal and DPS. Guildwars2 doesn’t have traditional roles but each profession dips its toe in several pools.

• Melee damage: Being in melee range is the highest damage but also the most risky.

• Range Damage: Range is for situations where it’s not possible to melee or you are playing it safe to counter an event mechanic.

• Condition damage: Condition vulnerable enemies, such as wurm husks. Removal of the condition duration from the unshakable buff and have unique player conditions.

• Kiting: Aggro of the boss or mobs should feel less random, maybe focusing their gaze onto a specific player through mechanics. (ooze attractant)

• Runner: When things require you move fast this is your guy! See that button? Go press it! Pressure plate over there? He’s on it!

• Reviver: A troop of people able to pick up the downed as fast as possible, and have the best chance of reviving a fully downed player. (not sure)

• Support boons: Primary focus on keeping up vital boons for survival such as: agis, vigor and protection also using appropriate combo fields.

• Support reflects: Supports the raid by placing well aimed and timed reflect spells to counter projectiles.

• Support Condition removal: Exactly what it says on the tin, removes conditions were applicable.

• Crowd Control: Slowing and knocking back of enemies running towards your more vulnerable players.

Encounters should be designed with every role in mind and carefully consider what each could do before excluding one.

These roles already exist in dungeons and can be done in Berserker gear.

It will not do a single thing to promote build diversity. If you want real build diversity, then ANet will need this.

Renn.8241:

I think implementing Raiding will be a great step forward for GW2.

Saying that I do also believe that there needs to be progress (ie. other game have the gear treadmill)

Although the gear treadmill is damaging to economy and social play, the same idea can be implemented to fit our game.

Agony is currently used in Fractals and creates a great mechanic that can increase difficulty and provide a challenge.

I therefore propose that any future raids and dungeons have a sort of agony stat treadmill, giving the player to continuously increase their agony resistance as harder content is introduced and as harder modes of any raid or dungeon are released.

(Content and final rewards also need to be decent, this is what will bring the players, also a CHALLENGE!)

Good Luck to Anet, I believe in you, you can pull this off and it can be amazing!
(think GW! = UW and FOW=Pathway to Success)

I like and agree with what you say. I dont think a gear treadmill would be good for gw2 and I think that most people that like the game is that you dont have to have the best gear to win and is all about coordination and build (at least in theory).

I also like to compare gw2 to Destiny due to the fact that they are very similar games. Actually I think destiny is the GW1 of shooter-RPGs. (even has the soft level cap at 20)
[off topic snippet: I’ve played it quite a lot, fun game and long gw2 break in terms of actual content]

Due to the similarities (lack of trinity, coordination/build centric) I think that the GW2 team should really look at that game for reference in designing their raid system. Even though the raids there are of a similar size to GW2 dungeons, the way it is designed is really enjoyable.

1- It takes good coordination, miscommunication will get you wiped.
2- Like GW2 agony for fractals or light levels in Destiny, it provides for an interesting way to progress.
3- The weapons/gear upgrades and perks are a really interesting mechanic that could be interesting for raids (or dungeons)
4- Looking back at the raid, every step towards the final boss introduced a new mechanic players had to get familiar with and in the final encounter, we had to use everything we learned (on top of coordinating well) to beat the last boss.

As much as I am excited like everyone for raid content, I’d prefer to see the team take their time, study the pro’s and con’s of the approaches taken by similar games and existing content from gw1 & 2. I’d also like to see the team adopt this kind of ideas for 5-man dungeons first for a few reasons:

1- Current dungeons are lacking on that end and feel too easy. (not hinting for reworks)
2- The team is already used to building 5-man content
3- (most of the) necessary systems are already there.
4- It’s also a good baby-step not only for the devs but also for the players to get used to the type of content & coordinating in smaller groups.

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NoTrigger.8396:

Ben K.6238:

Most of the combat involving larger numbers of people simply comes down to stacking and DPS tests, which require less skill, not more. Hence my question – is there any way that bringing larger numbers into one fight can still require skilled play from every member, and do so in a way that you can’t replicate with a smaller group?

One notable exception is GvG combat, where the mechanics are completely different from 5v5 fights and you die very fast if you don’t know what you’re doing. Perhaps that might be a good source of inspiration – but it would require someone with more experience than me to explain the mechanics of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HisRpzL24B8

watch this and pay attention to the eggs. if you dont understand what is happening there i will explain it.
but you will never be able to put mechanics like that into smaller group content or dungeons.

All I see is 15-16 players meleeing a static boss while moving away from AoE. And players attacking Eggs that traps allies?

Now, a 5 man dungeon can easily do the same thing. Subject Alpha can trap players in crystals. Remove a few party slots, balance HP accordingly and you get a dungeon.

runeblade.7514:

NoTrigger.8396:

Ben K.6238:

Most of the combat involving larger numbers of people simply comes down to stacking and DPS tests, which require less skill, not more. Hence my question – is there any way that bringing larger numbers into one fight can still require skilled play from every member, and do so in a way that you can’t replicate with a smaller group?

One notable exception is GvG combat, where the mechanics are completely different from 5v5 fights and you die very fast if you don’t know what you’re doing. Perhaps that might be a good source of inspiration – but it would require someone with more experience than me to explain the mechanics of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HisRpzL24B8

watch this and pay attention to the eggs. if you dont understand what is happening there i will explain it.
but you will never be able to put mechanics like that into smaller group content or dungeons.

All I see is 15-16 players meleeing a static boss while moving away from AoE. And players attacking Eggs that traps allies?

Now, a 5 man dungeon can easily do the same thing. Subject Alpha can trap players in crystals. Remove a few party slots, balance HP accordingly and you get a dungeon.

phase 1:
- dont get it by lasers, pretty obvious
if you get hit by a laser, it will deal 50%~ of your hp in damage to you and you will be slowed down extremely. means chances are high you will step into an aoe and die.
- smaller aoes
- the boss teleports behind one of the outer 6 pillars at the beginning of the fight and then every minute, until you push him to 75% hp. you have to interrupt the boss behind the pillar to make him teleport back to the middle. as long as you dont interrupt him, an aoe in the middle of the room will get bigger and bigger until everyone dies. the players behind the pillars get a dot. aoe and dot will disappear once the boss is interrupted.

phase 2:
- random aoes around the inner pillars
- smaller aoes
- big aoe:
you can hide behind 2-3 specific pillars. if you dont do that, the aoe will oneshot you.
- tank swap:
the tank with aggro gets hit with massive damage. the second tank needs to interrupt the boss. if you dont interrupt, the boss heals himself for 700k hp.
- Eggs:
one random player gets a corruption debuff and will be transformed into an egg.
to free the corrupted player, another player has to interrupt the egg. if you dont do that, the player in the egg will die and every other player will die after a short amount of time because of incoming damage. the eggs deal pulsating damage.
the player who interrupted the egg will get the corruption debuff too and will be transformed into an egg one minute later as well.
that means 1 egg -> 1 min -> 2 eggs -> 1 min -> 4 eggs -> 1 min -> 8 eggs -> 1 min -> if the boss isnt dead yet, game over. (basically the enrage timer)
if one player who is affected by the corruption debuff dies, the debuff will be carried over to another random player (domino effect, you wont stop this, game over).
if one player who is affected by the corruption debuff interrupts an egg, the corrupted player will immediately die and the domino effect will begin (see above, same counts if a player who is not affected by the corruption debuff interrupts 2 eggs).
the by the corruption debuff affected players and the players who will interrupt need to get in set positions every time the egg transformation happens, otherwise its just too much chaos (see reasons above). you typically use cardinal directions for this.
- the corruption debuff:
your outgoing damage is buffed by 200%. you have a dot dealing damage to you until the fight is over.

the average amount of wipes until guilds kill this boss for the first time is 100 or something.

just a little little bit more difficult than subject alpha people can kill first try even when they are new to the game.

logs for this kill:
http://www.wildstarlogs.com/reports/DFfHjtdvaAW9LRVx#fight=27

and i would like to see bosses like that in gw2 tbh.
actually you could put the same encounter easily in gw2 if you removed the hard hitting autoattacks and tuned the incoming damage so players can keep themselves alive by blasting water fields and using defensive buffs and boons.

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Also, I know its not easy to get an exact number of people to do an activity at the same time, but that is not a challenge for the devs, but for the guilds. Scaling the content to different sizes of groups will really limit what the devs can do with the content they create. I really think that you need to pick a number that works well for smaller as well as larger guilds. [ex: 15 or 20 – no, I dont think they should cater to 5 man guilds (work with others) or large guilds that could just run multiple groups]

Raids don’t need to become what dungeons should’ve been (even though similar design principles should be applied to make new ones more challenging)
Also, raids should not replace or be designed in a similar fashion to world bosses.

The way I would see the system developped:
1- I’d introduce a “raid level” similar to WXP, PvP rank pts rather than how fractals work.
2- I’d make progressing in those raid levels more similar to how fractals work rather than how gaining WXP works for instance.
3- I’d probably make ranking up raid levels tied to raid specific perks with an upgrade system similar to “light” in destiny, though either loosely or not at all tied to the gear in order to not interfere with current gear mechanics. (Destiny can afford to do what they do because builds dont rely on gear stats & their gear stats are much simpler enabling players to switch to new piece easily)
4a- I’d make raid level have an importance for completing said content (ex: raid level 1 should get wrecked in the 3rd raid of the game, and not by simple)
4b- I’d display mob and player levels using the raid levels (also required regular lvl 80 to enter)
4c- I’d make regular gear less important (rare vs exotic vs ascended) [not insignificant!] and focus more on raid perks/builds on top of the regular builds.
5- I’d give those mobs specific and predictable behaviour (important for 2 things)
a) players learn the patterns of each type and develop strategies in how to approach each encounter
b) and from a chalenge / design perspective, for gods sake, I cant wait for mobs that are smart enough not to follow players into a corner because we LoS (mob: “that looks like a trap…meh, lets go anyways” -_-) and I’ll be even happier when mobs are smart enough to use the terrain as cover and LoS players.
Ex: (halo, destiny, etc. Any game where a mob could have a shield or similar mechanic) Mob loses shield, hides / runs away in an attempt to recover it. Forces player to choose to take the risk of following and focusing that mob, or turning to clear the “smaller” mobs, forces DPS coordination to focus that target. (tl;dr : coordination and smarter enemies!)
6- A hard mode where you can rez dead players
7- I’m sure I forgot things…

NB: The perks are meant only for raid category content, similar to how we spend wxp points on wvw specific traits.

PS: plz fix that bs 900 seconds thing (way too long) and again falls in the issue i have with the excessive moderation on these forums, its just getting worse and worse… why 15 min between posts (I really hope this new thing is specific to this thread!)

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runeblade.7514:

These roles already exist in dungeons and can be done in Berserker gear.

It will not do a single thing to promote build diversity. If you want real build diversity, then ANet will need this.

Quite correct. Though my point wasn’t clear enough, these roles are using current Guildwars2 combat and the section started talking about builds, these should be separated.

LostBalloon.6423:

Also, I know its not easy to get an exact number of people to do an activity at the same time, but that is not a challenge for the devs, but for the guilds. Scaling the content to different sizes of groups will really limit what the devs can do with the content they create. I really think that you need to pick a number that works well for smaller as well as larger guilds. (ex: 15 or 20 – no, I dont think they should cater to 5 man guilds (work with others) or large guilds that could just run multiple groups)

Scaling isn’t part of the discussion right now, I think we’re supposed to be talking raid mechanics (some of which are dependent on available manpower) and progression in and through raids.

However, while scaling isn’t a thing, in my opinion scale is. I’m in a small guild, we have yet to do enough guild stuff to unlock puzzles. I don’t know that we can muster 15 interested raiders, even! But there are guilds out there that do have massive numbers and have done amazing things with Teq and Wurm.

Maybe not the first created raid, while kinks are ironed out, but eventually I would hope for a number of raid options, including something meant for 150 coordinated people who get to choose who those people are. Sort of a progression of raids in size, as it were. There are quite a few dungeons, there are numerous ways to do WvW, I know sPvP folks want more styles, we can level up in PvE by many routes. Why not aim to have a number of types and sizes of raids? (By “raid” I mean “massive group coordination content” not necessarily “fighting bosses in big rooms.” Heck, there could be a JP raid a’la Zephyr Sanctum requiring people to navigate a 3D maze of terrain to disarm traps in the right order in a certain time frame).

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Dalanor.5387:

Balsa.3951:

I have a question

Ppl say nobody should be carried/ pull there weight in those raids.

So how is that monitored/ controlled ?

Without a dps meter how we know who is been carried by 20 people?

By not inviting strangers in the group and play with people who you know well.

Also I can safely say that we do not need to discuss DPS meters in this proposal.

Chris

is not about DPS Meter my question focus more on the point that ppl will start the blame game very fast. without thinking about a solution for that those runs will be a Kick Party very fast, with a lot unwanted classes.

I think this aspect is something what ppl should keep in mind in 5 man dungeons kick abuse was already a big subject. not talking about instance stealing.

And thanks was my first dev response ever :P

Symph.8407:

Balsa.3951:

I have a question

Ppl say nobody should be carried/ pull there weight in those raids.

So how is that monitored/ controlled ?

Without a dps meter how we know who is been carried by 20 people?

One things is not making the raids too big – put a relatively low amount as the max numbers of players. 10 or 15 players ensures that there are not too many people in the raid, and thus makes it harder for each individual player to hide it if they’re not pulling their weight.
Alot of it lies in the design of the encounters as well. If you make the encounters difficult and complex enough, everyone will need to do their part, or the raid fails.
You can’t base the encounter on having
2 people doing thing 1
3 people doing thing 2
3 people doing thing 3
2 people to spare
etc.
There has to be something everyone needs to do (it’s doesn’t have to be super specific, but I hope you get what I’m saying).
This is also why scaling is a bad idea. It will make it much more likely that 1 or more players in the team don’t have anything (important) to do.

I like that idea

I remember in my old raiding time there where moments where some class got a specific job, like kiting mobs or pulling or coin a certain action at a certion moment

very like ur solution:)

Chris Whiteside.6102:

You have always been of huge value in the CDIs. I would ask that you at least hang around and see how the conversation evolves. The Casual vs. Hardcore argument is not in the spirit of the CDI as you know, and I mean this in regard to those on both side of the fence who can’t see that we aren’t even at the stage where this is even worth discussing.

I am watching how the conversation moves, over almost 20 pages now and there’s still this concept being clung to that there can be no such thing as a “casual raid”.

Bull hockey. It can be done . . .

I am asking the CDI group to concentrate on the core combat and mobility of the game. I am asking folks to think like systems and mechanics designers and essentially take the core foundation of the game and theory-craft and discuss how these systems and mechanics evolve into challenging collaborative instanced content.

This is the focus that will give us answers about what raiding could be in GW2.

If you want to think about the systems involved and how they work together, start by identifying the ones which are unique to GW2, and the ones which thread through “raids” as a whole. Or take another step back, away from MMOs as a tightly-focused attention and consider games in general which represent what you want out of a raid. I went back and hauled out some older games . . . and some newer tabletop games . . . to start taking things apart and looking at them.

Here’s what I perceive as the essence of a “raid encounter”:

- More complex than ordinary encounters. (N.B. – Complexity is not required to translate into difficulty.)
- Requiring a commitment to comprehend the complex parts and how they behave in regards to the raid goal.
- Preparation reliant on knowing what challenges are going to be coming up. (In some cases this includes taking gear which is specifically needed for one reason or another – this is something we can work with, but it can quickly become clunky.)
- Unique reward content. (N.B. – Does not mean it must be more powerful, or more advantageous. Also, this part is not required but it is highly desired.)

Minor things which I noted about raids:

- Failing could be anywhere from punishing (permadeath/scenario end) to annoying (wait for resurrection to start over from a safe point).
- Not all of them contained rewards sufficient to make the prep time and raid time worthwhile. (Especially in a case of traditional drop systems not like GuildWars 1/2.)
- Most seemed to center around a singular adversary and either reaching them to fight or fighting in phases. Sometimes this was substituted with a goal (i.e., “Retrieval” or “Defense”) with similar points.
- The most highly remembered ones tend to have lore and a narrative to go with it which was interesting, or entertaining.

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[3 of 3]
Oh, yes, one more thing i remembered in terms of progression. Checkpoints.

Add checkpoints to the raid from which players can resume at a later time (with or without the same group, based on who starts the instance for the checkpoint)

Also, spread the rewards throughout the raid and not just at the end (reward checkpoints). This could also be applied to current dungeons (splitting the reward instead of all at the end) to fix some of the core issues, including kicking players to make room for a friend right before the end.

Another thing that I really liked that they did in destiny (risk they took that paid off in my opinion)
No objective markers or log telling you what to do, the whole experience of it being on actually discovering and exploring. And to emphasize that there were hidden reward chests throughout the raid encouraging exploring and I think it would be a great idea for gw2 to assimilate because of the beautiful environment and exploration value present in the game. It will also make us “flip ever pebble” to discover stuff and not just run past everything in order to get to the next clearly identified objective.
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I dont want to sidetrack the theorycrafting and design discussion, but there was something that occurred to me today and I wanted to bring it up.

As you implement more complex fights that require greater reaction from players, particle effects are going to have a greater impact on encounters. We will need to be able to see the boss in order to react to telegraphed attacks. With larger groups (especially if their are alot of certain professions present) this could be an issue.

I think a particle effect slider or the option to turn off everyone else’s particle effects on your own screen may end up being a much needed change before raiding is implemented.

Again, just something that occurred to me that I wanted to get into mill before it slipped my mind. Don’t want to get in the way of the other discussions.