Guild Wars 2

nowitsawn.1276:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

And yet there are people that have already crafted their first entire set of ascended gear….without spending a dime of real life money….

Sure, real life money can speed up the process by giving you gold which you can use to purchase:
- the materials needed to level your crafting up
- some of the ascended materials

For a single set of ascended gear, you still have to play to acquire the 1500 bloodstone dust, 1500 dragonite ore, and 1500 empyreal shards. You need laurels, fractals, or karma for shards. You also need skill points ( few ways to get obviously) None of which can be acquired via a credit card, not to mention the conversions of the first three are timegated, which also cannot be bypassed by a credit card.

Having the convenience of a credit card only helps people with less time keep on par with the people that play extensively.

I think you missed the last line of my post there.

People having already crafted an entire set of ascended armor without using real money doesn’t really matter in this case because you had plenty of time to stockpile materials/gold beforehand. Fact is, if you’re making it from scratch, using real money will make it a bit easier.

But is the difference big enough to matter or not? Well, that’s up to you to decide. I’m a bit in the middle myself.

Sorry wasn’t ranting at you. More, trying to expound on your thoughts, but yeah missed the last line.

The only people the credit card option will appeal to are new players, and those that even knowing ascended was coming, don’t play enough to stockpile everything they need. It is a convenience for these two groups, so they don’t feel “left behind” and that’s Anets precise intention. Is does not give them an advantage, simply an option. Options are good things.

I believe people who call GW2 a P2W game have actually never played a P2W game.

In a “free” MMO I played for a much too long time, you could hardly earn money ingame, unless you:

1. Payed to visit certain areas with better droprates and more xp
2. Had upgraded equip (expensive to make)
3. Visited certain dungeons/ areas for which you needed upgraded equip

It would cost you a minimum of 600,-€ to upgrad a Set of four pieces from +3 to +10.

The shop in GW2 definately doesn’t offer anything like that. The game doesn’t have scuh a system neither. Ofc there’s a shift towards more CS-items lately and I do think some could cost less but there is no way I feel I need to spend real money because I couldn’t achieve my goal any other way.

The only way I think people can call this game P2W is by redefining winning to be obtaining stuff from the gem store. The entire game can be played from start to “finish” without a single gem store item.

Re agony. The +5 you can buy in the fractals bring you to either +40 or +70 (depending on whether armor pieces have an infusion slot). Which is plenty for doing the available fractal levels.

As inflation continues and the gold/time rate stays consistent or gets lower the game becomes more and more of a pay to win environment.

You can Google pay to win…..

Start with that……

I d say you will find most of that described in those articles as part of GW2.

What is needed to get the best gear?
GOLD

How much? really a lot.

You can get gold via real money that is alone pay to win.

AKA being able to have advantage over Others paying real money

LordByron.8369:

GEMS to gold
Infinite continue coin
Agony resistance
Boosters
Upgrade extractors

This is exactly pay to win

You clearly don’t know what the kitten is P2W!

MrRuin.9740:

Aeonblade.8709:

Yes, GW2 is very P2W oriented. It is no different than all the other Korean Grinders out there, sans a few key things like WvW.

Whether people like it or not, spending RL money in the in game cash shop gives you huge bonuses, which is the definition of P2W. The only way it wouldn’t be P2W is if the amount of time to farm something in game was proportionate to your IRL wages being able to buy you the same thing for the same amount of time. It’s a hard concept for most to understand, but any game that promotes the use of cash to get ahead of other players is most definitely P2W.

I assume from that statement you have not played a Korean grinder. Even Legendary making is a cakewalk compared to some of the grind out there.
The cashshop here is not giving you huge advantages. You can get a few boosters and Ascended/Legendary. Both of which are farmable in game, and neither is needed to “win” at anything.
You can buy whatever you need to speed up your Ascended making process, go out into the world and someone with Exotics can still be far better than you in PvE and can still kill you in 1vs1 if you run into them in WvW. You haven’t bought the ability to win. You have bought the convenience of time. There is a difference there.

If said items gave you the ability to automatically guarantee you a win at anything, I would be inclined, but its simply not. Time is also a convenience, not a win.
The line to P2W isn’t a fuzzy one. If someone could buy a tier of gear that guaranteed them victory over anyone with exotics, then the line to P2W has been crossed. You simply cannot buy that kind of advantage here.

Played L2 and Aion at release. Also dabbled in L1 and several other games. I have played them. This game is more similar to those than say, Everquest or WoW imo. The grind in this game for materials and such is very similar to L2 style grinding.

Opinions are like…well you know the old saying.

To me, it’s clearly in the P2W category, but not enough to affect my game to the point of driving me away.

If I can buy gold with RL money and use that to buy most of what I need to craft/make/whatever ascended armor/jewelry/weapons, it’s a P2W game. You are right, the line isn’t fuzzy at all, I think everyone just draws their own line, and no two lines are going to be alike.

Aeonblade.8709:

If I can buy gold with RL money and use that to buy most of what I need to craft/make/whatever ascended armor/jewelry/weapons, it’s a P2W game. You are right, the line isn’t fuzzy at all, I think everyone just draws their own line, and no two lines are going to be alike.

The argument is arguing the wrong thing. This game has pay elements.
It does not have win elements that are purchased with that pay system, which is what the argument is. Whatever you buy with RL money, anybody can get in game with time. All you are buying is the convenience of time. You are not buying anything to win. You can buy all you want in the GW2 cashshop, charge all the RL money you want and make 10 full sets of Ascended if you like. What did you buy to “win”? Nothing, as someone with Exotics can still kill you and do everything you can do with equal ease.

GW2 has pay elements.
GW2 lets you buy boosters.
GW2 lets you buy the convenience of time.
GW2 lets you buy prettiness via skins.
GW2 lets you buy ‘endgame’ gear by charging and converting RL money.
GW2 lets you farm all of the same ‘endgame’ gear in game. Ascended, while tedious, does not take long to farm.
Anything GW2 lets you do with RL money does not in any way make you better or able to do things people do not charge cannot, except save time. That time does not allow you do anything else any sooner other than flash that gear around. It does not let you win easily in WvW. It does not let you into dungeons better. It does not enable you to do anything.

The argument of semantics is coming down to what is “winning”.
I rarely charge RL money, I did once for a character slot. Noone that has charged hundreds of dollars can do anything more than me. Noone that has Legendary or Ascended can do anything more than me. Noone is going to win based on 5% increase in stats. If this were true, certain sigils would cost 200+ gold.

MrRuin.9740:

Aeonblade.8709:

If I can buy gold with RL money and use that to buy most of what I need to craft/make/whatever ascended armor/jewelry/weapons, it’s a P2W game. You are right, the line isn’t fuzzy at all, I think everyone just draws their own line, and no two lines are going to be alike.

The argument is arguing the wrong thing. This game has pay elements.
It does not have win elements that are purchased with that pay system, which is what the argument is. Whatever you buy with RL money, anybody can get in game with time. All you are buying is the convenience of time. You are not buying anything to win. You can buy all you want in the GW2 cashshop, charge all the RL money you want and make 10 full sets of Ascended if you like. What did you buy to “win”? Nothing, as someone with Exotics can still kill you and do everything you can do with equal ease.

GW2 has pay elements.
GW2 lets you buy boosters.
GW2 lets you buy the convenience of time.
GW2 lets you buy prettiness via skins.
GW2 lets you buy ‘endgame’ gear by charging and converting RL money.
GW2 lets you farm all of the same ‘endgame’ gear in game. Ascended, while tedious, does not take long to farm.
Anything GW2 lets you do with RL money does not in any way make you better or able to do things people do not charge cannot, except save time. That time does not allow you do anything else any sooner other than flash that gear around. It does not let you win easily in WvW. It does not let you into dungeons better. It does not enable you to do anything.

The argument of semantics is coming down to what is “winning”.
I rarely charge RL money, I did once for a character slot. Noone that has charged hundreds of dollars can do anything more than me. Noone that has Legendary or Ascended can do anything more than me. Noone is going to win based on 5% increase in stats. If this were true, certain sigils would cost 200+ gold.

Pretty much spot on, I agree. To me it’s a P2W system, but to you it wouldn’t be. It’s all in the eye of beholder and as you said arguing semantics. Good post +1.

I find it hard when people start arguing that 5% stat increase is nothing.
It is. In a game driven by numerical calculations it can make a difference.

Sure, a bad player in ascended will never win against a good player in exotics. But what about equally skilled players? 5% MAKES a difference.

And this is where all your 5% increase is nothing fails. It will never give power to bad players over good, but among equally good players, ascended gives an edge. Whoever tries to deny this is simply a fool.

An increase is an increase whatever you think about it. 5 will ALWAYS be more than 0 and you can play semantics as much as you like , this will never change. Even 1% is an increase and something that might help to differentiate two equally skilled players. See? It’s called an advantage.

BeoErgon.9107:

I find it hard when people start arguing that 5% stat increase is nothing.
It is. In a game driven by numerical calculations it can make a difference.

Sure, a bad player in ascended will never win against a good player in exotics. But what about equally skilled players? 5% MAKES a difference.

And this is where all your 5% increase is nothing fails. It will never give power to bad players over good, but among equally good players, ascended gives an edge. Whoever tries to deny this is simply a fool.

An increase is an increase whatever you think about it. 5 will ALWAYS be more than 0 and you can play semantics as much as you like , this will never change. Even 1% is an increase and something that might help to differentiate two equally skilled players. See? It’s called an advantage.

Don’t bring math into this, you might make their heads pop off!

Aeonblade.8709:

BeoErgon.9107:

I find it hard when people start arguing that 5% stat increase is nothing.
It is. In a game driven by numerical calculations it can make a difference.

Sure, a bad player in ascended will never win against a good player in exotics. But what about equally skilled players? 5% MAKES a difference.

And this is where all your 5% increase is nothing fails. It will never give power to bad players over good, but among equally good players, ascended gives an edge. Whoever tries to deny this is simply a fool.

An increase is an increase whatever you think about it. 5 will ALWAYS be more than 0 and you can play semantics as much as you like , this will never change. Even 1% is an increase and something that might help to differentiate two equally skilled players. See? It’s called an advantage.

Don’t bring math into this, you might make their heads pop off!

Can’t be easy being so clever.

Yargesh.4965:

Aeonblade.8709:

BeoErgon.9107:

I find it hard when people start arguing that 5% stat increase is nothing.
It is. In a game driven by numerical calculations it can make a difference.

Sure, a bad player in ascended will never win against a good player in exotics. But what about equally skilled players? 5% MAKES a difference.

And this is where all your 5% increase is nothing fails. It will never give power to bad players over good, but among equally good players, ascended gives an edge. Whoever tries to deny this is simply a fool.

An increase is an increase whatever you think about it. 5 will ALWAYS be more than 0 and you can play semantics as much as you like , this will never change. Even 1% is an increase and something that might help to differentiate two equally skilled players. See? It’s called an advantage.

Don’t bring math into this, you might make their heads pop off!

Can’t be easy being so clever.

It generally isn’t.

LordByron.8369:

You can Google pay to win…..

Start with that……

I d say you will find most of that described in those articles as part of GW2.

What is needed to get the best gear?
GOLD

How much? really a lot.

You can get gold via real money that is alone pay to win.

AKA being able to have advantage over Others paying real money

So WoW that has a huge goldseller problem is not pay to win, while ANet which chose to monetize that which is happening anyway is P2W? Also Diable 3 was P2W until recently?

Also, I thought P2W was a system where you had to pay if you wanted to win, not that you could use cash to obtain gold.

TooBz.3065:

LordByron.8369:

You can Google pay to win…..

Start with that……

I d say you will find most of that described in those articles as part of GW2.

What is needed to get the best gear?
GOLD

How much? really a lot.

You can get gold via real money that is alone pay to win.

AKA being able to have advantage over Others paying real money

So WoW that has a huge goldseller problem is not pay to win, while ANet which chose to monetize that which is happening anyway is P2W? Also Diable 3 was P2W until recently?

You can’t buy end game gear in WoW for gold. But you can in this game. That’s the major difference I think.

And you are right, Diablo 3 was very P2W, much moreso than GW2

BeoErgon.9107:

I find it hard when people start arguing that 5% stat increase is nothing.
It is. In a game driven by numerical calculations it can make a difference.

Sure, a bad player in ascended will never win against a good player in exotics. But what about equally skilled players? 5% MAKES a difference.

And this is where all your 5% increase is nothing fails. It will never give power to bad players over good, but among equally good players, ascended gives an edge. Whoever tries to deny this is simply a fool.

An increase is an increase whatever you think about it. 5 will ALWAYS be more than 0 and you can play semantics as much as you like , this will never change. Even 1% is an increase and something that might help to differentiate two equally skilled players. See? It’s called an advantage.

There is more to any fight than just the base math though.

Yes, any way you look at it, 5 is more than 0. However for 2 equally skilled players, there is more to be factored in than just the armor.

Even if they are the exact same class, running the exact same build down to the traits and utilities, you simply cannot remove the basic ‘human factor’ from any given equation, and that can make all the difference.

Besides, on top of that, there are things we have absolutely no control over that factor in as well.

The point – a 5% different in stats is not a defining factor.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

BeoErgon.9107:

I find it hard when people start arguing that 5% stat increase is nothing.
It is. In a game driven by numerical calculations it can make a difference.

Sure, a bad player in ascended will never win against a good player in exotics. But what about equally skilled players? 5% MAKES a difference.

And this is where all your 5% increase is nothing fails. It will never give power to bad players over good, but among equally good players, ascended gives an edge. Whoever tries to deny this is simply a fool.

An increase is an increase whatever you think about it. 5 will ALWAYS be more than 0 and you can play semantics as much as you like , this will never change. Even 1% is an increase and something that might help to differentiate two equally skilled players. See? It’s called an advantage.

There is more to any fight than just the base math though.

Yes, any way you look at it, 5 is more than 0. However for 2 equally skilled players, there is more to be factored in than just the armor.

Even if they are the exact same class, running the exact same build down to the traits and utilities, you simply cannot remove the basic ‘human factor’ from any given equation, and that can make all the difference.

Besides, on top of that, there are things we have absolutely no control over that factor in as well.

The point – a 5% different in stats is not a defining factor.

Of course! Human factor is something to take in account! In fact it is the more important factor.
But!
5% in stats might mean receiving one more blow, or needing one less hit to down your enemy, having a bigger chance to get that critical hit that turns the match around… It is not decisive, far from it, but it counts. Trying to deny it is useless.

I don’t want to say that getting your 5% means everyone has to fear you, I just wanted to point that it is far from being ‘nothing’.
If I gained 5% serve speed in tennis I don’t think I would be a challenge to any pro (even if I gained 100% speed in facct) . But 5% increase for pros is huge. The more skilled players are, the more this 5% is meaningful.

GW2 is not pay to win, because buying things will not help you in PvP.

However, if your goal is not PvP, then most likely what you do to “win” involves getting gold, and in that sense, it is most definitely pay2win if what you consider “winning” is the acquisition of wealth.

LordByron.8369:

You can Google pay to win…..

Start with that……

I d say you will find most of that described in those articles as part of GW2.

What is needed to get the best gear?
GOLD

How much? really a lot.

You can get gold via real money that is alone pay to win.

AKA being able to have advantage over Others paying real money

Wow, after all this time I never realized that the only way to get gold was to cash in gems for it. So that 30g I’m close to getting for 10K achievement points… is that real? Are they lying to me! Teasing me! I… I need to sit down.

It all boils down to people softening the definition of pay to win to the point that they can place the pay to win stigma on a game for whatever reasons. Anyone with a <cough> few years under their belts can easily recall real pay to win games. Why were they called pay to win? If you didn’t pay, you didn’t win. Period. The games were ultimately centered around PvP, and to compete in PvP with any hopes of success at all you had to purchase the best equipment from the cash shop. If you didn’t, you could not win no matter how good you were. That’s the real, original definition of pay to win games. Changing the definition until you can squeeze GW2 into it does not make it pay to win.

I’ve seen the “P2W” tag thrown around so much, and I’m still trying to figure out how anyone can say this is a “pay to win” game. I can guarantee you that I could have anything the gem store sells without spending a dime of my own money. I’d have to put forth some effort, but I can do it. So there is not one person that pays real money for items in the gem store who has an advantage over me in anything I can do in game just because they spent cash. In otherwords, they didn’t win just because they got out their credit card and I didn’t.

Ashen.2907:

You don’t need to pay money to get any of the things you mention. If you don’t have to pay for the item it is not pay to win. If I could not reasonably get those items without spending real world currency you would be right.

By your logic low level basic white gear is pay to win because I can choose to buy gems, convert to gold, and buy said gear if I wanted to, even though I can get it through game play.

It’s like i’m a wizard or something… I point out how the game is P2W and how people will justify it by any means possible and then this happens.

Based on this definition GW2 can never be P2W, even Anet can’t make their own game P2W with this definition as long as gold→gems is in the game.

Even if they put armor in the gem store that gives +1,000,000,000 stats it still isn’t P2W because hey… “GOLD TO GEMS I DON”T NEED THE GEM STORE"

Just keep moving that line…

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Ashen.2907:

You don’t need to pay money to get any of the things you mention. If you don’t have to pay for the item it is not pay to win. If I could not reasonably get those items without spending real world currency you would be right.

By your logic low level basic white gear is pay to win because I can choose to buy gems, convert to gold, and buy said gear if I wanted to, even though I can get it through game play.

It’s like i’m a wizard or something… I point out how the game is P2W and how people will justify it by any means possible and then this happens.

Based on this definition GW2 can never be P2W, even Anet can’t make their own game P2W with this definition as long as gold->gems is in the game.

Even if they put armor in the gem store that gives +1,000,000,000 stats it still isn’t P2W because hey… “GOLD TO GEMS I DON”T NEED THE GEM STORE"

Just keep moving that line…

There was no line to move. It cannot be considered pay to win if the same results can be had by other means. Is it taking an easier route? Yes. Are they paying to win? Nope.

BeoErgon.9107:

I find it hard when people start arguing that 5% stat increase is nothing.
It is. In a game driven by numerical calculations it can make a difference.

Sure, a bad player in ascended will never win against a good player in exotics. But what about equally skilled players? 5% MAKES a difference.

And this is where all your 5% increase is nothing fails. It will never give power to bad players over good, but among equally good players, ascended gives an edge. Whoever tries to deny this is simply a fool.

An increase is an increase whatever you think about it. 5 will ALWAYS be more than 0 and you can play semantics as much as you like , this will never change. Even 1% is an increase and something that might help to differentiate two equally skilled players. See? It’s called an advantage.

Noone is denying it is a slight stat advantage. Its not a game-changer nor is it a bought and paid for win. I can also buy a +5% sigil for a few gold and have an advantage over anyone who doesn’t.
A pay-to-win scenario would be one where you can only buy this advantage. You pay, you get an advantage over people who cannot pay and they cannot get on equal ground without also paying. This is not the case in GW2.
Anything you can buy, can also be had for free in a reasonable amount of time.

TChalla.7146:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Ashen.2907:

You don’t need to pay money to get any of the things you mention. If you don’t have to pay for the item it is not pay to win. If I could not reasonably get those items without spending real world currency you would be right.

By your logic low level basic white gear is pay to win because I can choose to buy gems, convert to gold, and buy said gear if I wanted to, even though I can get it through game play.

It’s like i’m a wizard or something… I point out how the game is P2W and how people will justify it by any means possible and then this happens.

Based on this definition GW2 can never be P2W, even Anet can’t make their own game P2W with this definition as long as gold->gems is in the game.

Even if they put armor in the gem store that gives +1,000,000,000 stats it still isn’t P2W because hey… “GOLD TO GEMS I DON”T NEED THE GEM STORE"

Just keep moving that line…

There was no line to move. It cannot be considered pay to win if the same results can be had by other means. Is it taking an easier route? Yes. Are they paying to win? Nope.

Uh, what you said is fundamentally pay to win. If they can get items that increase their power quicker than someone actually playing the game normally would, that is P2W. I won’t bother saying google the definition because it’s been said already.

Call it Pay 2 Shortcut or whatever you need to call it to make you feel warm and fuzzy, the bottom line is they are paying, and they are winning, faster than a normal player would.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Ashen.2907:

You don’t need to pay money to get any of the things you mention. If you don’t have to pay for the item it is not pay to win. If I could not reasonably get those items without spending real world currency you would be right.

By your logic low level basic white gear is pay to win because I can choose to buy gems, convert to gold, and buy said gear if I wanted to, even though I can get it through game play.

It’s like i’m a wizard or something… I point out how the game is P2W and how people will justify it by any means possible and then this happens.

Based on this definition GW2 can never be P2W, even Anet can’t make their own game P2W with this definition as long as gold->gems is in the game.

Even if they put armor in the gem store that gives +1,000,000,000 stats it still isn’t P2W because hey… “GOLD TO GEMS I DON”T NEED THE GEM STORE"

Just keep moving that line…

Actually, you’re wrong on that. If there were items you could only buy in the store that give that notable of an advantage than that would definitely qualify as pay to win.

Aeonblade.8709:

Uh, what you said is fundamentally pay to win. If they can get items that increase their power quicker than someone actually playing the game normally would, that is P2W. I won’t bother saying google the definition because it’s been said already.

Call it Pay 2 Shortcut or whatever you need to call it to make you feel warm and fuzzy, the bottom line is they are paying, and they are winning, faster than a normal player would.

Really? Winning… what exactly?

You’re describing a race to a plateau of power, where ultimately everyone is on equal footing. People run the race at a different pace regardless and the destination is the same for everyone. We all wind up relatively equal, whether or you got there slowly, quickly by spending time or quickly by spending gold. This is not pay to win.

Now, if you got to the top of the plateau and there was an elevator going to a higher power plateau and the only way to get it to work was to swipe your credit card, then you’re talking pay to win.

There’s a big difference between paying for the power to win and paying to be equal to everyone else a little more quickly.

Nope. Not by a long stretch and I hope it stays like that.

Until A-net decides to put imba items into the gemstore that trumps everything else in game, in PVP terms, GW2 is not a P2W game.

Aeonblade.8709:

TChalla.7146:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Ashen.2907:

You don’t need to pay money to get any of the things you mention. If you don’t have to pay for the item it is not pay to win. If I could not reasonably get those items without spending real world currency you would be right.

By your logic low level basic white gear is pay to win because I can choose to buy gems, convert to gold, and buy said gear if I wanted to, even though I can get it through game play.

It’s like i’m a wizard or something… I point out how the game is P2W and how people will justify it by any means possible and then this happens.

Based on this definition GW2 can never be P2W, even Anet can’t make their own game P2W with this definition as long as gold->gems is in the game.

Even if they put armor in the gem store that gives +1,000,000,000 stats it still isn’t P2W because hey… “GOLD TO GEMS I DON”T NEED THE GEM STORE"

Just keep moving that line…

There was no line to move. It cannot be considered pay to win if the same results can be had by other means. Is it taking an easier route? Yes. Are they paying to win? Nope.

Uh, what you said is fundamentally pay to win. If they can get items that increase their power quicker than someone actually playing the game normally would, that is P2W. I won’t bother saying google the definition because it’s been said already.

Call it Pay 2 Shortcut or whatever you need to call it to make you feel warm and fuzzy, the bottom line is they are paying, and they are winning, faster than a normal player would.

Here, I’ll go one step further on why this is not a pay to win game.

Who actually has the advantage?

1. The person that buys everything he needs/wants under the false pretense that he/she has some advantage over another

2. The person that actually goes out and earns gold to turn into gems so he/she can get what he/she wants/needs, all the while learning to play the game as he/she progresses towards the monetary goal

The vast majority of items in the gem store are either vanity items or convenience items. The rest can be had with in-game gold.

This is not a pay to win game.

fin

(Edited for grammatical errors and special effects only)

Anyway, label it how you want, I am not at all offended by GW2 cash → gems → gold conversion or it’s gold → gems conversion. I don’t feel pressured to spend cash for gold, gold is easy enough to come by.

Has anyone claiming GW2 is P2W actually played a P2W game? And what’s with this “getting things faster is P2W”? Since when was that P2W? As I said in another thread, does me playing more thus getting things faster mean I’m “winning” over someone? What about people who level/grind/whatever faster, should we limit that because they’re doing it faster?

Let me make this really clear. Doing something faster IS NOT P2W. Now that we’ve, hopefully, cleared that up let us hit the other “points”.

Are you able to repair without the use of a canister? Yes? Not P2W.
Can you revive without the use of an orb? Yes? Not P2W.
Are you able to socket without the use of an enchantment/extractor? Yes? Still not P2W!
Can you get the best gear without spending a dime on the cash shop? Yes? Nope, still not P2W.
Can you play ALL of the content without spending a cent on the store? Yes? I’m really having trouble finding the P2W.

Also, sorry to say, skins are not P2W. I might marginally agree if they could not be bought any other way than spending money, but you can use in game gold for gems. I feel the same about boosters. Especially with the RNG to even get the ones that boost stats, and the minimal increase it gives. Plus the what, one hour it lasts?

Can we also point out that the same people saying “buying gems to sell for gold is P2W!” would be the first to shout if they couldn’t use gold to buy gems? Let’s also point out gold is not hard to make. I’ve made two ascended weapons in two weeks. I bought most of the mats. I literally only ran dungeons, and world bosses. I had no gold on hand when I started. Maybe if people stopped whining in the forums about how it’s P2W because someone has a shiny sword and you don’t, you could have one to!

Now I’m not saying buy gems and selling them wouldn’t make it easier/faster. But the fact remains it’s not REQUIRED, by any means. That’s fundamentally what separates P2W from not P2W. I do not need to spend any real life money to be on par with other players. I can achieve this goal in a relatively short period. I can achieve this goal by simply playing the game.

Also handy list of P2W games. Runes of Magic, LOTR, PWI, D3, Shayia, Aion (to an extent), I think Rift is not too, and basically any f2p Korean MMO.

BeoErgon.9107:

Of course! Human factor is something to take in account! In fact it is the more important factor.
But!
5% in stats might mean receiving one more blow, or needing one less hit to down your enemy, having a bigger chance to get that critical hit that turns the match around… It is not decisive, far from it, but it counts. Trying to deny it is useless.

I don’t want to say that getting your 5% means everyone has to fear you, I just wanted to point that it is far from being ‘nothing’.
If I gained 5% serve speed in tennis I don’t think I would be a challenge to any pro (even if I gained 100% speed in facct) . But 5% increase for pros is huge. The more skilled players are, the more this 5% is meaningful.

We aren’t denying that it is a factor. We’re simply saying it’s not so much of a factor as to be as important as many make it out to be. Pro or otherwise. It is not a defining factor.

Sure, someone with ascended has more hp and more dmg than someone in exotics, but the skilled player than knows how to use his rolls and his environment to his advantage offsets that advantage. How to make even another skilled player commit to an action, and then evade while countering.

TooBz.3065:

Anyway, label it how you want, I am not at all offended by GW2 cash -> gems -> gold conversion or it’s gold -> gems conversion. I don’t feel pressured to spend cash for gold, gold is easy enough to come by.

Ding ding, we have a winner.

We can all label it however we want to, as long as it doesn’t bother us, and we can still play and have fun. Everyone’s definition of what is P2W is going to be different. The good thing about GW2 is, it’s right on the line so much that 2 people with different opinions can disagree on it. So at least they got it right enough to start the debate in the first place

Oxford Dictionary:

Pay:
verb (past and past participle paid)
1 [with object] give (someone) money that is due for work done, goods received, or a debt incurred:
[with object and infinitive]

To:
1. used with the base form of a verb to indicate that the verb is in the infinitive, in particular. ( expressing an outcome, result, or consequence)

Win:
verb (wins, winning; past and past participle won /w?n, wän/)
[with object]
1. be successful or victorious in (a contest or conflict):

Just so there’s no doubt. Until there is forced buying in order to access specific content as there is in so many other games (PWI mentioned often in this thread) there is nothing in the game, whether it be purchased or not that falls under the category “Pay To Win” as described in the Oxford Dictionary (Not some “internet slang” dictionary as someone called it.)

I can’t help that some people are upset that buying things make it a bit easier to play. The thing is that no matter what you buy in this game (so far) you will not have any glaringly unfair advantage over someone who does not buy.

If that ever happens, and I discover that I cannot go to (insert coveted place here) until I buy (insert item/armor/weapon/upgrade here) then it will be truly P2W and I will find another game.

For clarification, I do not count Fractals because I am not required to go there in order to play the game. Fractals are a choice, just as WvW and sPvP are. I choose not to go, and I am not barred from going because I do not have (blank.)

Evelynddra.9265:

Now I’m not saying buy gems and selling them wouldn’t make it easier/faster. But the fact remains it’s not REQUIRED, by any means. That’s fundamentally what separates P2W from not P2W. I do not need to spend any real life money to be on par with other players. I can achieve this goal in a relatively short period. I can achieve this goal by simply playing the game.

Yep. But good luck getting any of the P2W theorists to absorb that into their skulls. They think being able to do something faster actually does = winning. You can throw all the logic you want at them, it will just bounce off of them.

I like your example of people being able to farm/grind faster than others. If someone farms dungeons and bosses and can net 100g/week because they have the time, is it now all of a sudden not fair to more casual players who can’t do that? With their logic Anet would have to cap how much money you can accrue every day, because otherwise it wouldn’t be fair that someone with more time can accrue money (and by extension materials and/or legendaries) faster than people with less time.

Allowing those with less time the opportunity to purchase gems to convert to gold so they can remain as competitive as those with more time and willpower to farm is the fair (and profitable) thing to do. That’s how you make a casual friendly game. It isn’t P2W, it’s P2Bequaltohardcoreplayers.

MrRuin.9740:

BeoErgon.9107:

I find it hard when people start arguing that 5% stat increase is nothing.
It is. In a game driven by numerical calculations it can make a difference.

Sure, a bad player in ascended will never win against a good player in exotics. But what about equally skilled players? 5% MAKES a difference.

And this is where all your 5% increase is nothing fails. It will never give power to bad players over good, but among equally good players, ascended gives an edge. Whoever tries to deny this is simply a fool.

An increase is an increase whatever you think about it. 5 will ALWAYS be more than 0 and you can play semantics as much as you like , this will never change. Even 1% is an increase and something that might help to differentiate two equally skilled players. See? It’s called an advantage.

Noone is denying it is a slight stat advantage. Its not a game-changer nor is it a bought and paid for win. I can also buy a +5% sigil for a few gold and have an advantage over anyone who doesn’t.
A pay-to-win scenario would be one where you can only buy this advantage. You pay, you get an advantage over people who cannot pay and they cannot get on equal ground without also paying. This is not the case in GW2.
Anything you can buy, can also be had for free in a reasonable amount of time.

Wrong. There are lots of posts saying simply this : 5% is nothing. It’s against those posts that I made my argument. People are just doing that : denying it.

And for the rest… P2W is also about having the things easier and in less time. You simply get to have a big part of the game handed to you for a reasonable amount of money. And let me tell that I am only talking about PVE here since its content is almost all buyable with gold. It’s like having Mario levels handed to you by paying a fee to Nintendo.

Making P2W optional does not make it less present in this game.

For those that say that PVE win is not for sale, I am curious : What exactly do you have as PVE objectives? Only titles require you to really play right now and some Ores for the ascended too, maybe exploration for the legendary. The rest? Some gold and you have it. Talk about a let down in motivation to get anything when you know the gus next to you got it all just by intputing credit card data.

You don’t see anything to win in PVE? Well, fine. I respect this since I don’t like WWW nor PVP myself. But putting all the PVE content at credit card reach is seriously sapping my motivation to get anything.

Draknar.5748:

Evelynddra.9265:

Now I’m not saying buy gems and selling them wouldn’t make it easier/faster. But the fact remains it’s not REQUIRED, by any means. That’s fundamentally what separates P2W from not P2W. I do not need to spend any real life money to be on par with other players. I can achieve this goal in a relatively short period. I can achieve this goal by simply playing the game.

Yep. But good luck getting any of the P2W theorists to absorb that into their skulls. They think being able to do something faster actually does = winning. You can throw all the logic you want at them, it will just bounce off of them.

I like your example of people being able to farm/grind faster than others. If someone farms dungeons and bosses and can net 100g/week because they have the time, is it now all of a sudden not fair to more casual players who can’t do that? With their logic Anet would have to cap how much money you can accrue every day, because otherwise it wouldn’t be fair that someone with more time can accrue money (and by extension materials and/or legendaries) faster than people with less time.

Allowing those with less time the opportunity to purchase gems to convert to gold so they can remain as competitive as those with more time and willpower to farm is the fair (and profitable) thing to do. That’s how you make a casual friendly game. It isn’t P2W, it’s P2Bequaltohardcoreplayers.

Paying to stay competitive is the standard definition of P2W.

It should be clear to everyone that there’s no pay to win.

There is the option to pay to be equal to everyone else a little more quickly if you wish.

Well I checked definitions for victory (win) and “pay-to-win”. P2W definitions seem to be subjectiv. Three definitions I found for victory, are: Victory

1. refers especially to the final defeat of an enemy or opponent
2. is a success attained in a contest or struggle or over an opponent, obstacle, or problem
3. the act of triumphing or state of having triumphed

Summed up I’d say buying gems in GW2 to reach an own set goal can be called p2w.

But if you start comparing a Gempurchaser with players who didn’t buy gems but still reached their own goals then GW2 isn’t a P2W game (also because the other player isn’t finally defeated).

So it’s the goal and the context that defines if GW2 is p2w or not. And obviously some people will will say yes, others say no.

After trying to be objective my personal experince and belief is, as I already said some posts above, that GW2 isn’t p2w. I also think people who buy gems to reach a goal faster aren’t necessarily winners.

BeoErgon.9107:

Wrong. There are lots of posts saying simply this : 5% is nothing. It’s against those posts that I made my argument. People are just doing that : denying it.

And for the rest… P2W is also about having the things easier and in less time. You simply get to have a big part of the game handed to you for a reasonable amount of money. And let me tell that I am only talking about PVE here since its content is almost all buyable with gold. It’s like having Mario levels handed to you by paying a fee to Nintendo.

Making P2W optional does not make it less present in this game.

For those that say that PVE win is not for sale, I am curious : What exactly do you have as PVE objectives? Only titles require you to really play right now and some Ores for the ascended too, maybe exploration for the legendary. The rest? Some gold and you have it. Talk about a let down in motivation to get anything when you know the gus next to you got it all just by intputing credit card data.

You don’t see anything to win in PVE? Well, fine. I respect this since I don’t like WWW nor PVP myself. But putting all the PVE content at credit card reach is seriously sapping my motivation to get anything.

The increase in stat is something I don’t like either. If it was up to me, exotics would be the final tier. Anything else will be pretty shinies like GW1.

But think for a moment here. What is there to win in PVE exactly? It isn’t a race.

Other than fractals, what other parts of the game is inaccessible with exotics? None.

Fractals is made for people who enjoy the vertical progression so there are no arguments there from me.

In an honest-to-God P2W game, PVE content are balanced based on cashshop items. PVP is heavily tilted towards cashshop items. You better be a really savvy trader if you do not intend to go plastic. Otherwise you will die like the pawns in epic battle movies that don’t even get a mention in the end credits.

There is nothing to win, therefore there is no case to be made.

Anyone who believes there’s an objective in this game that constitutes winning is naive and using this term about as loosely as a lady of the night.

LordByron.8369:

Any objective comparison between a P2W and Gw2 will result in a positive answer to the question.

P2W games had alsways tried to mask the p2w between alternative way to obtain same effect in game…

FIRST CASE:
For example…in many games you can “enchant” your weapon….the more you enchant it the more you risk to lose enchantments or similar.

But there is a store item that will avoid this effect.

Now at a certain point the effort to enchant it becomes so extreme, that you actually need the shop item…..

In Gw2 we have exactly the same….now with the gem becoming out of reach due to the system that is clearly designed to make gem unaccessible the more time pass…

SECOND CASE:
There are indeed pve items in the shop that gives you a HUGE advantage.

RESS orbs repair canister are just a couple example

THIRD CASE:
What about another famous example of P2W games?
Craft booster
20 level scroll
level scroll

Its a common item in P2W games

FOURTH CASE:
In a game where GOLD is the universal way to acquire BEST EQUIP……
Changing real money with GOLD is actually the best way to WIN…..

If you compare common P2W game they have the same EXACT features…
You can THEORETICALLY do the same….but the grind associated is pushing you a lot into pay real money…..

When the game was released the only reaso it wasn t considered a P2W game by most reviewers was the low conversion cost gold to gem making buying GOLD unefficient and gemstore accessible by playing.

Since there we saw a 300% increse in gold to gem…..AND Patches explicitly forcing players into buying GEM items
(Ascended armor/weapons while keeping expensive skins at exotic, and the infamous upgrade extractor).

All that you mentioned above.. can you one shot a player with those? Tell me if its does and have a proof then ill agree that Gw2 is P2win.

I would say definitely not. And I think anyone that has played truly P2W games would have to agree. I feel like people are using P2W here far too loosely to make their point. But as these arguments are so obviously subjective I don’t think they accurately describe the game.

There is so much convoluted and desperate definition shuffling here it’s just pathetic.

Firstly, how do you win in pve? What is the end goal of pve? I’m asking you. Tell me, how do you win pve? If you say pve can’t be won, then stop reading here. Gw2 is not p2w. If you think achieving or competing in any of the following would be considered “winning” or “endgame” then read on:

• Legendaries
• Ascended
• WvW
• Fractals

P2W does not refer exclusively to things that are bought with money with no alternatives. If you don’t agree, then stop reading. GW2 is not P2W for you. However, there are many games that would commonly be considered P2W that allow players the option to bypass large amounts of grind or time-gating by spending some money. In this sense GW2 is indisputably P2W, but probably fairly mild in comparison to other games.

TL;DR

1. P2W term generally includes games that bypass grind with $$$
2. GW2 allows you to bypass grind with $$$
3. GW2 is P2W (the degree is up to you to determine)

milo.6942:

There is so much convoluted and desperate definition shuffling here it’s just pathetic.

Firstly, how do you win in pve? What is the end goal of pve? I’m asking you. Tell me, how do you win pve? If you say pve can’t be won, then stop reading here. Gw2 is not p2w. If you think achieving or competing in any of the following would be considered “winning” or “endgame” then read on:

• Legendaries
• Ascended
• WvW
• Fractals

P2W does not refer exclusively to things that are bought with money with no alternatives. If you don’t agree, then stop reading. GW2 is not P2W for you. However, there are many games that would commonly be considered P2W that allow players the option to bypass large amounts of grind or time-gating by spending some money. In this sense GW2 is indisputably P2W, but probably fairly mild in comparison to other games.

TL;DR

1. P2W term generally includes games that bypass grind with $$$
2. GW2 allows you to bypass grind with $$$
3. GW2 is P2W (the degree is up to you to determine)

Concise and well worded. Great post +1

Aeonblade.8709:

milo.6942:

There is so much convoluted and desperate definition shuffling here it’s just pathetic.

Firstly, how do you win in pve? What is the end goal of pve? I’m asking you. Tell me, how do you win pve? If you say pve can’t be won, then stop reading here. Gw2 is not p2w. If you think achieving or competing in any of the following would be considered “winning” or “endgame” then read on:

• Legendaries
• Ascended
• WvW
• Fractals

P2W does not refer exclusively to things that are bought with money with no alternatives. If you don’t agree, then stop reading. GW2 is not P2W for you. However, there are many games that would commonly be considered P2W that allow players the option to bypass large amounts of grind or time-gating by spending some money. In this sense GW2 is indisputably P2W, but probably fairly mild in comparison to other games.

TL;DR

1. P2W term generally includes games that bypass grind with $$$
2. GW2 allows you to bypass grind with $$$
3. GW2 is P2W (the degree is up to you to determine)

Concise and well worded. Great post +1

Concise, well worded, and wrong.

Pay to be equal a little more quickly is not pay to win.

VOLKON.1290:

Aeonblade.8709:

milo.6942:

There is so much convoluted and desperate definition shuffling here it’s just pathetic.

Firstly, how do you win in pve? What is the end goal of pve? I’m asking you. Tell me, how do you win pve? If you say pve can’t be won, then stop reading here. Gw2 is not p2w. If you think achieving or competing in any of the following would be considered “winning” or “endgame” then read on:

• Legendaries
• Ascended
• WvW
• Fractals

P2W does not refer exclusively to things that are bought with money with no alternatives. If you don’t agree, then stop reading. GW2 is not P2W for you. However, there are many games that would commonly be considered P2W that allow players the option to bypass large amounts of grind or time-gating by spending some money. In this sense GW2 is indisputably P2W, but probably fairly mild in comparison to other games.

TL;DR

1. P2W term generally includes games that bypass grind with $$$
2. GW2 allows you to bypass grind with $$$
3. GW2 is P2W (the degree is up to you to determine)

Concise and well worded. Great post +1

Concise, well worded, and wrong.

Pay to be equal a little more quickly is not pay to win.

You can buy a legendary directly from the auction house.

No, it’s not —but because most of end-game revolves around gold, and gold can be bought with Gems, it feels like the whole game is designed around the Gem-shop. Either you have to pay $10 a month on Gems or farm gold in order to progress.

milo.6942:

VOLKON.1290:

Aeonblade.8709:

milo.6942:

There is so much convoluted and desperate definition shuffling here it’s just pathetic.

Firstly, how do you win in pve? What is the end goal of pve? I’m asking you. Tell me, how do you win pve? If you say pve can’t be won, then stop reading here. Gw2 is not p2w. If you think achieving or competing in any of the following would be considered “winning” or “endgame” then read on:

• Legendaries
• Ascended
• WvW
• Fractals

P2W does not refer exclusively to things that are bought with money with no alternatives. If you don’t agree, then stop reading. GW2 is not P2W for you. However, there are many games that would commonly be considered P2W that allow players the option to bypass large amounts of grind or time-gating by spending some money. In this sense GW2 is indisputably P2W, but probably fairly mild in comparison to other games.

TL;DR

1. P2W term generally includes games that bypass grind with $$$
2. GW2 allows you to bypass grind with $$$
3. GW2 is P2W (the degree is up to you to determine)

Concise and well worded. Great post +1

Concise, well worded, and wrong.

Pay to be equal a little more quickly is not pay to win.

You can buy a legendary directly from the auction house.

Only with real life money?

milo.6942:

VOLKON.1290:

Aeonblade.8709:

milo.6942:

There is so much convoluted and desperate definition shuffling here it’s just pathetic.

Firstly, how do you win in pve? What is the end goal of pve? I’m asking you. Tell me, how do you win pve? If you say pve can’t be won, then stop reading here. Gw2 is not p2w. If you think achieving or competing in any of the following would be considered “winning” or “endgame” then read on:

• Legendaries
• Ascended
• WvW
• Fractals

P2W does not refer exclusively to things that are bought with money with no alternatives. If you don’t agree, then stop reading. GW2 is not P2W for you. However, there are many games that would commonly be considered P2W that allow players the option to bypass large amounts of grind or time-gating by spending some money. In this sense GW2 is indisputably P2W, but probably fairly mild in comparison to other games.

TL;DR

1. P2W term generally includes games that bypass grind with $$$
2. GW2 allows you to bypass grind with $$$
3. GW2 is P2W (the degree is up to you to determine)

Concise and well worded. Great post +1

Concise, well worded, and wrong.

Pay to be equal a little more quickly is not pay to win.

You can buy a legendary directly from the auction house.

Which is equal in power to an ascended, both of which can be obtained more slowly in game.

At the end of the day, MMO developers are selling either a product (box price which allows access to the game for either a limited or unlimited time), a service (ongoing access paid for by a sub or a cash shop with either necessary items, optional items, or both). GW2 provides both a product and a service. Paying for the service is optional.

Payment of the GW2 box price means I can win in any of the game’s competitive environments without paying for gems. Box purchase also means I can access all game content without buying gems. That makes the game not a P2W environment.

However, in any sub-based game, even ones that don’t have a cash shop, I can’t win at PvP or access content if I can’t even log in without paying. Ergo, sub games are more P2W than GW2. That’s not even a soft line like, “Paying cash makes it easier or more convenient to get x.” That’s a hard line, “Pay or don’t play.”

See what you can do by playing with the meaning of words?