Guild Wars 2

Grim Jr.8946:

wow some people here really want to make gw2 look like it’s pay to win.

If you don’t know what pay to win looks like clearly you haven’t played/seen Diablo 3.. where you can literally use your credit card to become the most powerful being in the game while in gw2 even if you buy all your armor all your legendary weapons all your +30 AR whatever I will probably still be better than you with 10 AR just saying~

That’s the thing, you dont’ care about beauty contest. And apparently many people do.

There really isn’t much difference between GW2 and “the other pay2win” game except you buy power in other game, and in this game you buy cosmetic.

Most of those p2w games, you dont’ have to pay to win too. You just need to play the game like a full time job. Since most of them have a cash to gem conversion system like in GW2. So anything from gem store can be bought with in game cash.

Travis the Terrible.4739:

pay 2 win means using real money to gain an advantage.

NOTHING IN THE GEM SHOP GIVES YOU AN ADVANTAGE OVER PLAYERS NOT BUYING/TRADING GOLD FOR GEMS.

In essence gw2 is not pay 2 win.

You can get everything in this game that would give you an “advantage” by buying it for the most part (ascended sort of excluded because you can’t by ascended pieces but the materials for it and because of the trinkets).

Seriously people need to learn what p2w means again.

The advantage is you don’t need to spend a few hundred hours doing something you dont’ want to look pretty.

I’m supprised that many people care that much about cosmetic. If you actually played the game, you know many people do right? Eventhough I dont’ and I can never understand why people care about cosmetic.

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

Until you realize that you still need to do the time gated stuff to level up your crafting skills high enough to actually make the ascended equipment in the first place. Whether or not you can purchase the time gated mats off of the trading post you still have to get a crafting skill to a high enough level to actually make the ascended gear. And since the Ascended Gear is bound to you, you can’t simply have someone else craft it for you.

I’m pretty sure I can get to 500 crafting in a few hours if I have money. And if I dont’ it’ll take alot more than a few hours.

You still need to do “something” yourself, but with money it is much easier right?

laokoko.7403:

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

Until you realize that you still need to do the time gated stuff to level up your crafting skills high enough to actually make the ascended equipment in the first place. Whether or not you can purchase the time gated mats off of the trading post you still have to get a crafting skill to a high enough level to actually make the ascended gear. And since the Ascended Gear is bound to you, you can’t simply have someone else craft it for you.

I’m pretty sure I can get to 500 crafting in a few hours if I have money. And if I dont’ it’ll take alot more than a few hours.

You still need to do “something” yourself, but with money it is much easier right?

Note: With MONEY. Gold. Easily accessible in-game.

laokoko.7403:

Grim Jr.8946:

wow some people here really want to make gw2 look like it’s pay to win.

If you don’t know what pay to win looks like clearly you haven’t played/seen Diablo 3.. where you can literally use your credit card to become the most powerful being in the game while in gw2 even if you buy all your armor all your legendary weapons all your +30 AR whatever I will probably still be better than you with 10 AR just saying~

That’s the thing, you dont’ care about beauty contest. And apparently many people do.

There really isn’t much difference between GW2 and “the other pay2win” game except you buy power in other game, and in this game you buy cosmetic.

Most of those p2w games, you dont’ have to pay to win too. You just need to play the game like a full time job. Since most of them have a cash to gem conversion system like in GW2. So anything from gem store can be bought with in game cash.

I care alot about beauty but like the other people have been saying being mr/ms Tyria won’t make you better than anyone else out there hence it is not pay to win, like the other guy said it’s pay to dress up but the sad truth is people say they (anet) are being greedy about those hence they call it pay to win.

so what im saying is even if you have the best cosmetics you (not you in particular but anyone who believes cosmetics are what defines good ) still suck. so even if you have spent 10000000000$ you still won’t be better than anyone hence the game is not pay to win

laokoko.7403:

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

Until you realize that you still need to do the time gated stuff to level up your crafting skills high enough to actually make the ascended equipment in the first place. Whether or not you can purchase the time gated mats off of the trading post you still have to get a crafting skill to a high enough level to actually make the ascended gear. And since the Ascended Gear is bound to you, you can’t simply have someone else craft it for you.

I’m pretty sure I can get to 500 crafting in a few hours if I have money. And if I dont’ it’ll take alot more than a few hours.

You still need to do “something” yourself, but with money it is much easier right?

so it’s not pay to win it’s pay for convenience big difference :P

How that differs from saying you can irrealistically farm 10 +1 weapons and fuse them to +3 almost safely due to numbers…
Or just buy the +3 safe infusor from the cash shop?

You can theoretically have the same result……

Its the same discussion you will find in any P2W game forum….

Guhracie.3419:

laokoko.7403:

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

Until you realize that you still need to do the time gated stuff to level up your crafting skills high enough to actually make the ascended equipment in the first place. Whether or not you can purchase the time gated mats off of the trading post you still have to get a crafting skill to a high enough level to actually make the ascended gear. And since the Ascended Gear is bound to you, you can’t simply have someone else craft it for you.

I’m pretty sure I can get to 500 crafting in a few hours if I have money. And if I dont’ it’ll take alot more than a few hours.

You still need to do “something” yourself, but with money it is much easier right?

Note: With MONEY. Gold. Easily accessible in-game.

Then WHY is it time gated? Please explain that.

Any advantage you buy is paying to win, and many items in the gem shop give you an advantage, boosters, storage, gathering tools etc.

Cosmetic items are truly the only things I consider are not P2W, the other stuff gives you perks even if it simply means you farm better than I can with exactly the same gear set up because you bought the items to do it.

We cannot just say an advantage only counts when its against some pve or pvp encounter.

The winning part can mean many things, faster gathering, better drops, quicker killing, buying ascended mats and basically just an easier life in the game and for me that’s P2W.

Gold is king in GW2 and it can be purchased.

mergi.1407:

Gold is king in GW2 and it can be purchased.

And also earned by just playing the game.

The general meaning of ‘P2W’ is that you spend real money to gain access to buffs, content and what have you that are not otherwise available.

If GW2 is ‘P2anything’, it’s convenience, and let’s not forget that we’re talking about a game that has one of the most (if not the most) consumer friendly business models out there.

And as the saying goes, “the beauty is in the eye of the beholder”, not everyone finds the ‘TP only’ skins as the coolest or the prettiest or whatever, so even from that point of view the ‘P2W’ argument falls flat on its back.

LordByron.8369:

FIRST CASE:
For example…in many games you can “enchant” your weapon….the more you enchant it the more you risk to lose enchantments or similar.

But there is a store item that will avoid this effect.

Now at a certain point the effort to enchant it becomes so extreme, that you actually need the shop item…..

In Gw2 we have exactly the same….now with the gem becoming out of reach due to the system that is clearly designed to make gem unaccessible the more time pass…

SECOND CASE:
There are indeed pve items in the shop that gives you a HUGE advantage.

RESS orbs repair canister are just a couple example

THIRD CASE:
What about another famous example of P2W games?
Craft booster
20 level scroll
level scroll

Its a common item in P2W games

FOURTH CASE:
In a game where GOLD is the universal way to acquire BEST EQUIP……
Changing real money with GOLD is actually the best way to WIN…..

[…]

When the game was released the only reaso it wasn t considered a P2W game by most reviewers was the low conversion cost gold to gem making buying GOLD unefficient and gemstore accessible by playing.

Since there we saw a 300% increse in gold to gem…..AND Patches explicitly forcing players into buying GEM items
(Ascended armor/weapons while keeping expensive skins at exotic, and the infamous upgrade extractor).

1. I really don’t know where do you have this kind of “enchament” in GW2? Infusions maybe? or just runes, that cost, at much 5 gold?

2. Ress orbs → Oh, i died here Q.Q. Wait, I can res for 3 silver or I can buy a CS item that’s worth 10 gold so I can rez. Yay! i just rezzed!

Repair → I really never found myself with broken stuff. You have so many things to break and there’s a chance that nothing gets break that before I get anything broken I’m right into one city to repair. And dungeons have their own repair NPC. And again, it’s cheapest to pay just 10 silver than 10 gold-worth.

3.
Craft booster → It’s just a help. Seriously, 50% is nothing compared to P2W games, where you can get x12 (that’s 1.200%) boost.

Also, maybe I missed it, but I haevn’t seen scrolls in the CS. Only from mob drops / Anniversary reward / Achievement reward.

4.
I can see your point here. But there’s not “too much” difference in stats between a 2g rare and a 50g exotic weapon. Just for the looks

And remember that who sets the price is not the dev’s, but the playerbase. If gem price is now 7g it’s because players think that it’s worth 7g. If it weren’t worth 7g people would stop buying it and the price would go back down.

Also, remember that back when the game started, getting 1 gold each day was nearly impossible. Now it’s easier than ever.

OP is actually referrring to Pay-to-Win beauty contest….

The best non-AR infusions require WvW badges, which are IMPOSSIBLE to purchase – you must play in WvW (even if just puzzles) or reach achievements that nothing in the gem store will make easier enough for you to notice a difference. In a Zerg, the party en masse contributes more to your strength than any booster. You can earn them through achievement points, but the “buyable” points don’t add up enough to make a glimmer if a difference.

So, we have a best in slot item which you effectively cannot pay for, even if it is only a +1 and 1% attack/defence advantage vs npcs

There are two definitions of p2w in this thread and that’s where the whole difference in opinion comes from:
1) P2W – I absolutely need to invest RL money to get items that give me a clear advantage over other players (usually items usable in PvP, but not necessarily). This is clearly not the case in GW2.

2) P2W – I can invest RL money and get stuff in-game… In which case it’s more of an argument along the lines of “Money can buy me happiness”.
I consider that an overstretch, since same can be said about anything… I can spend money to buy uber mega giga buffed account in WoW, I can pay someone to mod my character in Skyrim so he looks super awesome, I can pay a comic artist to make a fanfic of my favorite game/show, hell I can even make a movie about a franchise I like just like Uwe Bowl did. But why stop at entertainment industry ? I can buy citizenship in Canada, Australia or Scandinavia, or any other place on this planet really… I can “buy” a new heart from Albanian mafia.. With enough money I can be the first man to set a foot on Mars…
Yes, we get it, money can buy you allot of things, and GW2 is no different… Should it be called P2W ? Only if you call everything else in this pitiful society of ours P2W in which case the whole argument makes no sense.

laokoko.7403:

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

Until you realize that you still need to do the time gated stuff to level up your crafting skills high enough to actually make the ascended equipment in the first place. Whether or not you can purchase the time gated mats off of the trading post you still have to get a crafting skill to a high enough level to actually make the ascended gear. And since the Ascended Gear is bound to you, you can’t simply have someone else craft it for you.

I’m pretty sure I can get to 500 crafting in a few hours if I have money. And if I dont’ it’ll take alot more than a few hours.

You still need to do “something” yourself, but with money it is much easier right?

so what if i pay to get to 500 crafting within 1 minute. pay-to-win ? against what ? as far as i know there is no competition or contest who would get to lvl 500 crafting fastest….

people really need to understand the meaning of pay-to-win . ask yourself again, pay to win against what…. ? then you know whether the game is pay-to-win or not…

if the game start selling a crit potion usable in PvP, then it is a pay-to-win….

Freeelancer.2860:

There are two definitions of p2w in this thread and that’s where the whole difference in opinion comes from

There is only one proper (as in, general) definition of “P2W”, and as has been shown again and again in this thread it does not apply to GW2.

The rest are attempts by people to twist the meaning to serve their purposes, basically calling the devs greedy when in fact, the business model of GW2 proves the complete opposite.

Ensio.8172:

Freeelancer.2860:

There are two definitions of p2w in this thread and that’s where the whole difference in opinion comes from

There is only one proper (as in, general) definition of “P2W”, and as has been shown again and again in this thread it does not apply to GW2.

The rest are attempts by people to twist the meaning to serve their purposes, basically calling the devs greedy when in fact, the business model of GW2 proves the complete opposite.

to tell the truth the common definition of P2W from internet suits 100% this game…

Then people started giving their personal view to deny it ……..but frankly we still need ANY link from a reliable source to give credit to their personal view…..

Becka Williams.4978:

Guhracie.3419:

laokoko.7403:

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

Until you realize that you still need to do the time gated stuff to level up your crafting skills high enough to actually make the ascended equipment in the first place. Whether or not you can purchase the time gated mats off of the trading post you still have to get a crafting skill to a high enough level to actually make the ascended gear. And since the Ascended Gear is bound to you, you can’t simply have someone else craft it for you.

I’m pretty sure I can get to 500 crafting in a few hours if I have money. And if I dont’ it’ll take alot more than a few hours.

You still need to do “something” yourself, but with money it is much easier right?

Note: With MONEY. Gold. Easily accessible in-game.

Then WHY is it time gated? Please explain that.

First you’ll have to explain why the time-gating means the game is pay to win. Then we’ll see if I have enough context to provide an answer.

LordByron.8369:

Ensio.8172:

Freeelancer.2860:

There are two definitions of p2w in this thread and that’s where the whole difference in opinion comes from

There is only one proper (as in, general) definition of “P2W”, and as has been shown again and again in this thread it does not apply to GW2.

The rest are attempts by people to twist the meaning to serve their purposes, basically calling the devs greedy when in fact, the business model of GW2 proves the complete opposite.

to tell the truth the common definition of P2W from internet suits 100% this game…

Then people started giving their personal view to deny it ……..but frankly we still need ANY link from a reliable source to give credit to their personal view…..

perhaps you can explain your version of the common definition of P2W that you think 100% suits this game, and give example pls.

LordByron.8369:

Ensio.8172:

Freeelancer.2860:

There are two definitions of p2w in this thread and that’s where the whole difference in opinion comes from

There is only one proper (as in, general) definition of “P2W”, and as has been shown again and again in this thread it does not apply to GW2.

The rest are attempts by people to twist the meaning to serve their purposes, basically calling the devs greedy when in fact, the business model of GW2 proves the complete opposite.

to tell the truth the common definition of P2W from internet suits 100% this game…

Then people started giving their personal view to deny it ……..but frankly we still need ANY link from a reliable source to give credit to their personal view…..

Nothing in GW2 is only obtainable by paying real money. You don’t have to actually pay for anything, and if you do actually pay for something, it does not make you win anything.

Guhracie.3419:

Becka Williams.4978:

Guhracie.3419:

laokoko.7403:

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

Until you realize that you still need to do the time gated stuff to level up your crafting skills high enough to actually make the ascended equipment in the first place. Whether or not you can purchase the time gated mats off of the trading post you still have to get a crafting skill to a high enough level to actually make the ascended gear. And since the Ascended Gear is bound to you, you can’t simply have someone else craft it for you.

I’m pretty sure I can get to 500 crafting in a few hours if I have money. And if I dont’ it’ll take alot more than a few hours.

You still need to do “something” yourself, but with money it is much easier right?

Note: With MONEY. Gold. Easily accessible in-game.

Then WHY is it time gated? Please explain that.

First you’ll have to explain why the time-gating means the game is pay to win. Then we’ll see if I have enough context to provide an answer.

lets try:
one day
player A pays real money and get ascended weapons
Player B instead has to wait and craft it slowly in 1 month.

For 1 month player A is having advantage.

a month pass, player A and B are supposed to be on equal ground..
But Anet release Ascended armors taking 3 months

Player A buys them
Player B Waits some months.

Another 3 month of advantage of player A….
What will happen in 3 months? infusions….

This is the reason behind the trendmill we are seeying and the added grinding.

Now lets add that in NO WAY (with the ONLY small exception of market flipping) you can gain enough gold to be on par with player A.

Considering a reasonable amount of daily play….(i farm most dungeons daily………i still have to finish ascended weapons).

you will have to grind all our time and still won t be able to be on par….also we won t really “play the game”.

Ensio.8172:

Nothing in GW2 is only obtainable by paying real money. You don’t have to actually pay for anything, and if you do actually pay for something, it does not make you win anything.

If something is SO grinding to be Theoretically achievable without paying BUT realistically only achievable by paying …..IT IS P2W

If this apply to a good portion of players is indeed P2W.

LordByron.8369:

Guhracie.3419:

Becka Williams.4978:

Guhracie.3419:

laokoko.7403:

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

Until you realize that you still need to do the time gated stuff to level up your crafting skills high enough to actually make the ascended equipment in the first place. Whether or not you can purchase the time gated mats off of the trading post you still have to get a crafting skill to a high enough level to actually make the ascended gear. And since the Ascended Gear is bound to you, you can’t simply have someone else craft it for you.

I’m pretty sure I can get to 500 crafting in a few hours if I have money. And if I dont’ it’ll take alot more than a few hours.

You still need to do “something” yourself, but with money it is much easier right?

Note: With MONEY. Gold. Easily accessible in-game.

Then WHY is it time gated? Please explain that.

First you’ll have to explain why the time-gating means the game is pay to win. Then we’ll see if I have enough context to provide an answer.

lets try:
one day
player A pays real money and get ascended weapons
Player B instead has to wait and craft it slowly in 1 month.

For 1 month player A is having advantage.

a month pass, player A and B are supposed to be on equal ground..
But Anet release Ascended armors taking 3 months

Player A buys them
Player B Waits some months.

Another 3 month of advantage of player A….
What will happen in 3 months? infusions….

This is the reason behind the trendmill we are seeying and the added grinding.

Now lets add that in NO WAY (with the ONLY small exception of market flipping) you can gain enough gold to be on par with player A.

Considering a reasonable amount of daily play….(i farm most dungeons daily………i still have to finish ascended weapons).

you will have to grind all our time and still won t be able to be on par….also we won t really “play the game”.

Player A cannot buy ascended. Your argument is invalid.

err.. you can buy ascended weapon/armor ? i don’t think you could.

if you want to give example, pls be factual.

ok lets change the ascended to Legendaries.

player A buys gem, convert to gold, and purchase the Legendary.
player B work his sweat day and night farming everything and make his Legendary.

how does that make player A win against player B. win in terms of what ? both have their Legendary in the end.

EDIT:
Should we really debate AGAIN about the advantage of buying damask?
Or how people was able to get ascended in 2 days?

pointless waste of time for me…..
try to deny everything….to bring up already answered points….

STill we have 0 counterarguments with reliable info or links from the denyers…
Start with that.

It’s so cute to see P2W conspiracy theorists try so hard to push fallacies to justify their arguments, only to see them crash and burn when they get caught in a lie.

LordByron.8369:

Guhracie.3419:

LordByron.8369:

Guhracie.3419:

Becka Williams.4978:

Guhracie.3419:

laokoko.7403:

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

Until you realize that you still need to do the time gated stuff to level up your crafting skills high enough to actually make the ascended equipment in the first place. Whether or not you can purchase the time gated mats off of the trading post you still have to get a crafting skill to a high enough level to actually make the ascended gear. And since the Ascended Gear is bound to you, you can’t simply have someone else craft it for you.

I’m pretty sure I can get to 500 crafting in a few hours if I have money. And if I dont’ it’ll take alot more than a few hours.

You still need to do “something” yourself, but with money it is much easier right?

Note: With MONEY. Gold. Easily accessible in-game.

Then WHY is it time gated? Please explain that.

First you’ll have to explain why the time-gating means the game is pay to win. Then we’ll see if I have enough context to provide an answer.

lets try:
one day
player A pays real money and get ascended weapons
Player B instead has to wait and craft it slowly in 1 month.

For 1 month player A is having advantage.

a month pass, player A and B are supposed to be on equal ground..
But Anet release Ascended armors taking 3 months

Player A buys them
Player B Waits some months.

Another 3 month of advantage of player A….
What will happen in 3 months? infusions….

This is the reason behind the trendmill we are seeying and the added grinding.

Now lets add that in NO WAY (with the ONLY small exception of market flipping) you can gain enough gold to be on par with player A.

Considering a reasonable amount of daily play….(i farm most dungeons daily………i still have to finish ascended weapons).

you will have to grind all our time and still won t be able to be on par….also we won t really “play the game”.

Player A cannot buy ascended. Your argument is invalid.

Player A can buy all GATED mats but few to get ascended

As said 2 days of farming against 36 per armorsets are P2W..

I d call your argument pointless.

Paying to have an unfair advantage is still P2W…bypassing 36 days of timegating and having to farm only 2 days (dragonite and the remaining T7).

You can do easily 5-700 dragonite per day…and most players have so much empyreal and bloodstones to trash it.

so basically finishing ascended faster is considered Pay-to-Win ? win against what ? there is no contest or competition who would finish their ascended first as far as i know, or am i missing any ?

and fyi, i never paid a single cents apart from the GW2 box, and i already got my Bolt and Kudzu. Pay-to-Win ?

azizul.8469:

LordByron.8369:

Guhracie.3419:

LordByron.8369:

Guhracie.3419:

Becka Williams.4978:

Guhracie.3419:

laokoko.7403:

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

Until you realize that you still need to do the time gated stuff to level up your crafting skills high enough to actually make the ascended equipment in the first place. Whether or not you can purchase the time gated mats off of the trading post you still have to get a crafting skill to a high enough level to actually make the ascended gear. And since the Ascended Gear is bound to you, you can’t simply have someone else craft it for you.

I’m pretty sure I can get to 500 crafting in a few hours if I have money. And if I dont’ it’ll take alot more than a few hours.

You still need to do “something” yourself, but with money it is much easier right?

Note: With MONEY. Gold. Easily accessible in-game.

Then WHY is it time gated? Please explain that.

First you’ll have to explain why the time-gating means the game is pay to win. Then we’ll see if I have enough context to provide an answer.

lets try:
one day
player A pays real money and get ascended weapons
Player B instead has to wait and craft it slowly in 1 month.

For 1 month player A is having advantage.

a month pass, player A and B are supposed to be on equal ground..
But Anet release Ascended armors taking 3 months

Player A buys them
Player B Waits some months.

Another 3 month of advantage of player A….
What will happen in 3 months? infusions….

This is the reason behind the trendmill we are seeying and the added grinding.

Now lets add that in NO WAY (with the ONLY small exception of market flipping) you can gain enough gold to be on par with player A.

Considering a reasonable amount of daily play….(i farm most dungeons daily………i still have to finish ascended weapons).

you will have to grind all our time and still won t be able to be on par….also we won t really “play the game”.

Player A cannot buy ascended. Your argument is invalid.

Player A can buy all GATED mats but few to get ascended

As said 2 days of farming against 36 per armorsets are P2W..

I d call your argument pointless.

Paying to have an unfair advantage is still P2W…bypassing 36 days of timegating and having to farm only 2 days (dragonite and the remaining T7).

You can do easily 5-700 dragonite per day…and most players have so much empyreal and bloodstones to trash it.

so basically finishing ascended faster is considered Pay-to-Win ? win against what ? there is no contest or competition who would finish their ascended first as far as i know, or am i missing any ?

Win against other players that won t be able to play fractal 50 for months
Win against players that will forever be one tier behind because as they slowly get on par, a new “tier” (infusion or whatever) get released….
Win of players who can “play the way they want” against other forced to “prepare to have fun” that they will never be able because they will run after “vertical progression”.

If the system was fair we would see time gating MANDATORY……

I just browsed the Gem Shop, didn’t see anything relating to ascended crafting.

Am I blind and misinformed and Anet is actually selling ascended crafting materials for gems?

LordByron.8369:

azizul.8469:

LordByron.8369:

Guhracie.3419:

LordByron.8369:

Guhracie.3419:

Becka Williams.4978:

Guhracie.3419:

laokoko.7403:

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

Until you realize that you still need to do the time gated stuff to level up your crafting skills high enough to actually make the ascended equipment in the first place. Whether or not you can purchase the time gated mats off of the trading post you still have to get a crafting skill to a high enough level to actually make the ascended gear. And since the Ascended Gear is bound to you, you can’t simply have someone else craft it for you.

I’m pretty sure I can get to 500 crafting in a few hours if I have money. And if I dont’ it’ll take alot more than a few hours.

You still need to do “something” yourself, but with money it is much easier right?

Note: With MONEY. Gold. Easily accessible in-game.

Then WHY is it time gated? Please explain that.

First you’ll have to explain why the time-gating means the game is pay to win. Then we’ll see if I have enough context to provide an answer.

lets try:
one day
player A pays real money and get ascended weapons
Player B instead has to wait and craft it slowly in 1 month.

For 1 month player A is having advantage.

a month pass, player A and B are supposed to be on equal ground..
But Anet release Ascended armors taking 3 months

Player A buys them
Player B Waits some months.

Another 3 month of advantage of player A….
What will happen in 3 months? infusions….

This is the reason behind the trendmill we are seeying and the added grinding.

Now lets add that in NO WAY (with the ONLY small exception of market flipping) you can gain enough gold to be on par with player A.

Considering a reasonable amount of daily play….(i farm most dungeons daily………i still have to finish ascended weapons).

you will have to grind all our time and still won t be able to be on par….also we won t really “play the game”.

Player A cannot buy ascended. Your argument is invalid.

Player A can buy all GATED mats but few to get ascended

As said 2 days of farming against 36 per armorsets are P2W..

I d call your argument pointless.

Paying to have an unfair advantage is still P2W…bypassing 36 days of timegating and having to farm only 2 days (dragonite and the remaining T7).

You can do easily 5-700 dragonite per day…and most players have so much empyreal and bloodstones to trash it.

so basically finishing ascended faster is considered Pay-to-Win ? win against what ? there is no contest or competition who would finish their ascended first as far as i know, or am i missing any ?

Win against other players that won t be able to play fractal 50 for months
Win against players that will forever be one tier behind because as they slowly get on par, a new “tier” (infusion or whatever) get released….
Win of players who can “play the way they want” against other forced to “prepare to have fun” that they will never be able because they will run after “vertical progression”.

If the system was fair we would see time gating MANDATORY……

so basically there is a competition of who would get to fractal 50 fastest ?

Ensio.8172:

I just browsed the Gem Shop, didn’t see anything relating to ascended crafting.

Am I blind and misinformed and Anet is actually selling ascended crafting materials for gems?

so basically there is a competition of who would get to fractal 50 fastest ?

As said ……asking forever points alredy discussed cyclically to deny something is an old tactic….

People should read the Whole thread and see who is doing this.

Guhracie.3419:

Player A cannot buy ascended. Your argument is invalid.

And even if we change ascended for legendary, the argument is still invalid, since the weapon does not come from the shop. Some other player had to craft it first.
The gold in gems to gold exchange also comes not from the shop, but from other players.
So, basically, there is nothing “pay2win” being offered in Anet’s shop at all.

Now, it doesn’t mean their shop strategies cannot be a ripoff – some (kitten rng boxes) were a case of extremely bad and distasteful design. So, Anet’s shop can be really, really bad at times. But it’s not pay2win.

LordByron.8369:

Ensio.8172:

I just browsed the Gem Shop, didn’t see anything relating to ascended crafting.

Am I blind and misinformed and Anet is actually selling ascended crafting materials for gems?

As said -……asking forever points alredy discussed cyclically to deny something is an old tactic….

People should red the Whole tjread and see who is doing this.

I’m not trying to deny anything, it was an honest question, which for whatever reason you chose not to answer.

azizul.8469:

LordByron.8369:

Guhracie.3419:

LordByron.8369:

Guhracie.3419:

Becka Williams.4978:

Guhracie.3419:

laokoko.7403:

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

Until you realize that you still need to do the time gated stuff to level up your crafting skills high enough to actually make the ascended equipment in the first place. Whether or not you can purchase the time gated mats off of the trading post you still have to get a crafting skill to a high enough level to actually make the ascended gear. And since the Ascended Gear is bound to you, you can’t simply have someone else craft it for you.

I’m pretty sure I can get to 500 crafting in a few hours if I have money. And if I dont’ it’ll take alot more than a few hours.

You still need to do “something” yourself, but with money it is much easier right?

Note: With MONEY. Gold. Easily accessible in-game.

Then WHY is it time gated? Please explain that.

First you’ll have to explain why the time-gating means the game is pay to win. Then we’ll see if I have enough context to provide an answer.

lets try:
one day
player A pays real money and get ascended weapons
Player B instead has to wait and craft it slowly in 1 month.

For 1 month player A is having advantage.

a month pass, player A and B are supposed to be on equal ground..
But Anet release Ascended armors taking 3 months

Player A buys them
Player B Waits some months.

Another 3 month of advantage of player A….
What will happen in 3 months? infusions….

This is the reason behind the trendmill we are seeying and the added grinding.

Now lets add that in NO WAY (with the ONLY small exception of market flipping) you can gain enough gold to be on par with player A.

Considering a reasonable amount of daily play….(i farm most dungeons daily………i still have to finish ascended weapons).

you will have to grind all our time and still won t be able to be on par….also we won t really “play the game”.

Player A cannot buy ascended. Your argument is invalid.

Player A can buy all GATED mats but few to get ascended

As said 2 days of farming against 36 per armorsets are P2W..

I d call your argument pointless.

Paying to have an unfair advantage is still P2W…bypassing 36 days of timegating and having to farm only 2 days (dragonite and the remaining T7).

You can do easily 5-700 dragonite per day…and most players have so much empyreal and bloodstones to trash it.

so basically finishing ascended faster is considered Pay-to-Win ? win against what ? there is no contest or competition who would finish their ascended first as far as i know, or am i missing any ?

You’re using gold to buy those things. None of those things are for sale in the gemstore. Here’s my link: Log into your game and bring up the gem shop. Search for any of the materials involved in making ascended armor/weapons/whatever. So, not only are they NOT for sale there, and thus NOT behind the ceiling of using real money to get them, your only argument here is that people can get gold for their gems.

100gold=~$20. If you think that’s a good, efficient way of making gold, then you’re either not paying rent/bills or you’re much better off than most people are right now.

However, here’s the biggest point I’m trying to make: Gold is the currency of all these things you’re bringing up, and Gold is not hard to come by in the game. And I say that as someone who was too poor to waypoint earlier today.

Guhracie.3419:

azizul.8469:

LordByron.8369:

Guhracie.3419:

LordByron.8369:

Guhracie.3419:

Becka Williams.4978:

Guhracie.3419:

laokoko.7403:

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

Until you realize that you still need to do the time gated stuff to level up your crafting skills high enough to actually make the ascended equipment in the first place. Whether or not you can purchase the time gated mats off of the trading post you still have to get a crafting skill to a high enough level to actually make the ascended gear. And since the Ascended Gear is bound to you, you can’t simply have someone else craft it for you.

I’m pretty sure I can get to 500 crafting in a few hours if I have money. And if I dont’ it’ll take alot more than a few hours.

You still need to do “something” yourself, but with money it is much easier right?

Note: With MONEY. Gold. Easily accessible in-game.

Then WHY is it time gated? Please explain that.

First you’ll have to explain why the time-gating means the game is pay to win. Then we’ll see if I have enough context to provide an answer.

lets try:
one day
player A pays real money and get ascended weapons
Player B instead has to wait and craft it slowly in 1 month.

For 1 month player A is having advantage.

a month pass, player A and B are supposed to be on equal ground..
But Anet release Ascended armors taking 3 months

Player A buys them
Player B Waits some months.

Another 3 month of advantage of player A….
What will happen in 3 months? infusions….

This is the reason behind the trendmill we are seeying and the added grinding.

Now lets add that in NO WAY (with the ONLY small exception of market flipping) you can gain enough gold to be on par with player A.

Considering a reasonable amount of daily play….(i farm most dungeons daily………i still have to finish ascended weapons).

you will have to grind all our time and still won t be able to be on par….also we won t really “play the game”.

Player A cannot buy ascended. Your argument is invalid.

Player A can buy all GATED mats but few to get ascended

As said 2 days of farming against 36 per armorsets are P2W..

I d call your argument pointless.

Paying to have an unfair advantage is still P2W…bypassing 36 days of timegating and having to farm only 2 days (dragonite and the remaining T7).

You can do easily 5-700 dragonite per day…and most players have so much empyreal and bloodstones to trash it.

so basically finishing ascended faster is considered Pay-to-Win ? win against what ? there is no contest or competition who would finish their ascended first as far as i know, or am i missing any ?

You’re using gold to buy those things. None of those things are for sale in the gemstore. Here’s my link: Log into your game and bring up the gem shop. Search for any of the materials involved in making ascended armor/weapons/whatever. So, not only are they NOT for sale there, and thus NOT behind the ceiling of using real money to get them, your only argument here is that people can get gold for their gems.

100gold=~$20. If you think that’s a good, efficient way of making gold, then you’re either not paying rent/bills or you’re much better off than most people are right now.

However, here’s the biggest point I’m trying to make: Gold is the currency of all these things you’re bringing up, and Gold is not hard to come by in the game. And I say that as someone who was too poor to waypoint earlier today.

And again….
Already discussed…should i guess next post by reading 2 pages behind?

Something new maybe?
i asked some link as we provided a couple quite interesting….

Please link an internet reliable definition of P2W

I think I need to quote myself, since there are still players who don’t understand the term Pay 2 Win

Smooth Penguin.5294:

The problem with this argument stems from the fact that people who use the term “Pay 2 Win” have absolutely no idea what it means. Just like when someone complains about “manipulators” in the trade forums. It’s just a negative sounding word that they throw around, hoping that one day it’ll make sense to the topic at hand.

No. I have read this entire thread, and I have no more patience for your run-around. I’ve done pay to win games. GW2 has one of the least invasive monetization models I’ve ever seen, period. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: Claiming that GW2 is in any way Pay-to-Win is just ridiculous.

Guhracie.3419:

No. I have read this entire thread, and I have no more patience for your run-around. I’ve done pay to win games. GW2 has one of the least invasive monetization models I’ve ever seen, period. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: Claiming that GW2 is in any way Pay-to-Win is just ridiculous.

This is indeed true. The people who claim that GW2 is Pay 2 Win are the ones who feel they are Entitled to BiS gear without having to pay or put in effort.

But they’ll one day realize that even with all the BiS gear on their characters, you can never buy skill from the Gem Store.

What about those from bigger servers with players that pays the wvw guilds from other server to migrate to their already winning server to have complete domination.
That is also pay to win.

messagetogod.9078:

What about those from bigger servers with players that pays the wvw guilds from other server to migrate to their already winning server to have complete domination.
That is also pay to win.

That is player behaviour, and has nothing to do with the business model of the game.

Ensio.8172:

messagetogod.9078:

What about those from bigger servers with players that pays the wvw guilds from other server to migrate to their already winning server to have complete domination.
That is also pay to win.

That is player behaviour, and has nothing to do with the business model of the game.

Business model or not intentional, it still turned out like this.

Wvw is all about who has the most players running zerg.
Manpower > Skill

They buy man power with real money to seal a win in their book.

messagetogod.9078:

Ensio.8172:

messagetogod.9078:

What about those from bigger servers with players that pays the wvw guilds from other server to migrate to their already winning server to have complete domination.
That is also pay to win.

That is player behaviour, and has nothing to do with the business model of the game.

Business model or not intentional, it still turned out like this.

Wvw is all about who has the most players running zerg.
Manpower > Skill

They buy man power with real money to seal a win in their book.

That may be so, but it still has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Guhracie.3419:

No. I have read this entire thread, and I have no more patience for your run-around. I’ve done pay to win games. GW2 has one of the least invasive monetization models I’ve ever seen, period. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: Claiming that GW2 is in any way Pay-to-Win is just ridiculous.

This is indeed true. The people who claim that GW2 is Pay 2 Win are the ones who feel they are Entitled to BiS gear without having to pay or put in effort.

But they’ll one day realize that even with all the BiS gear on their characters, you can never buy skill from the Gem Store.

I know what you’re getting at when you say “skill,” but it just reminded me: In my first multiplayer online game, your skills would only go to a point (like, imagine you could only get up to the 3 point tier of utilities, or into the first ten points of traits) and you’d have to pay to unlock them further. They also made special items that would give just anyone access to a couple of skills from another class. And general resistance skills were paid for. Oh, and the skillpoints had to be purchased after a point, as well. There was also an item handed out at the discretion of the guy who coded the game that would take someone to a portal area (sort of like Lion’s Arch, but nobody else could access the gates on either side) with portals that led out to the most populated areas in the game. They eventually were put up for sale, I believe. Another game by the same company had an item that would allow the owner and his party (unlimited number) to portal directly to anyone in the game. The game (all of them by this company, as far as I know, in fact) was largely PvP and it was open world PvP, at that. If you were not flagged for PvP, you couldn’t engage in any violent acts, including killing mobs. That portal thing was a HUGE advantage, and it was almost impossible to counter when it was first introduced. Oh, and when it was introduced, it was via an in-game real-time auction, so one guy had it.

It was to a point that skill didn’t even actually matter.

messagetogod.9078:

What about those from bigger servers with players that pays the wvw guilds from other server to migrate to their already winning server to have complete domination.
That is also pay to win.

Pay 2 Win is a business model where the game company allows players to be more powerful in game than other players who don’t pay. Players in game who pool their resources to recruit skilled players is not Pay 2 Win, it’s call negotiations.

Your incorrect usage of the term is like comparing thermonuclear fusion to a beagle puppy.

LordByron.8369:

You can Google pay to win…..

Start with that……

I d say you will find most of that described in those articles as part of GW2.

What is needed to get the best gear?
GOLD

How much? really a lot.

You can get gold via real money that is alone pay to win.

AKA being able to have advantage over Others paying real money

I am going to stop you right there because its a falicy to state that you need a lot of gold for the best gear in game. You only need a lot of gold if you want to take the easy way out and not gather a single thing required to craft ascended gear. People are so obsessed with rushing that they didnt realise the quick way was far slower then what they thought was the slow way. When ascended gear was released people payed as much as 12s for a single ancient wood log! with my 4 level 80 chars I can harvest 144 ancient wood in 30 minutes (once I know the routes which you’d learn in a day easily) That route will apply until the next patch. 30 mins for 144 ancient wood logs that people were paying 17g for! no way to make 17g in 30 minutes.

That brings me to your next argument you’re using that 17g (which players created not Arenanet btw! you’re accusing Arenanet of releasing BiS that requires tons of gold to craft when the blame for the tons of gold is actually with the players that charged astronomically for mats and worst yet other players who just to avoid 30 mins of gathering payed like hours worth of gold for those mats) as proof the game is pay to win because people could take out their credit card rather then play the hours required to earn those 17g in order to avoid the 30mins of gathering required otherwise (sorry but I find it hard to stomach how all this came about just so people avoided a few minutes of gathering every day and I think its important to keep things in perspective. You’re paying $5 of real money to essentially avoid having to gather for 30 mins here. We’re not talking paying $5 to avoid months of grinding) But anyhow back to the point… Lets say you spend the entire bag of dollars needed to buy all the ascended gear set and me poor player who doesnt invest a single cent am stuck in my exotic set for the next few weeks. Can you please point out where the win is to be found?

If we cross paths in PvE how do you win and how do I loose both of which are a required component of pay to win? All you can do is help me out you cannot make me loose out on anything thanks to your investment!

If we cross paths in sPvP how do you win and how do I loose? we’re both entirely equal!

if we cross paths in WvW? sure lets say the planets align and we find ourselves facing each other in the open plains, with equal forces of equal skills, equal builds except for you who got the ascended gear set thanks to your real money spent, both our groups are using the same food buffs, the same support and same buffs from our team mates and even though its essentially impossible to have so many things perfectly aligned it happens and things play out so perfectly balanced that just like it should be on paper your team is left with just you standing after the dust settles thanks to your 5% advantage.. So thats a win for you and loose for me right? nope because WvW isnt about killing other players its about taking and holding objectives and ascended gear isnt going to change that in any significant way.

There is no advantage to be had. Thats a fact not even debatable outside of WvW. In WvW like the devs said there are so many factors at play and so many other things to consider that 5% is one of the smallest things to consider. If an entire server has all their players in ascended gear and they face another server who has not 1 player with 1 single piece of ascended gear 5% over 500 players gives a collective advantage of 25% Thats like being in a group of 4 players and face an opposing part of 5 players. How many of use won in similar and much worst engagements?

In short you’re paying to get there faster but getting there faster doesnt really give you any advantage what so ever! for sure in PvE and sPvP and in my opinion also in WvW.

LordByron.8369:

And again….
Already discussed…should i guess next post by reading 2 pages behind?

Oh, yes:

The gold in gems to gold exchange also comes not from the shop, but from other players.
So, basically, there is nothing “pay2win” being offered in Anet’s shop at all.

You should definitely try to read 2 pages behind.

Want to know a game that is p2w? Star Wars: The Old Republic! As a f2p user you can not equip the best gear in game, you either have to sub or buy “permission” in the CS, oh and you can’t convert credits to cartel coins either.

Jeeze, 2 more pages of people trying to impress their definitions on others. Think it’s time to flag this post and get it closed. It’s nothing but two sides arguing over whose is bigger at this point.

Hello everyone.
We want to remind you to keep this thread healthy, productive and respectful. Otherwise, we will have to close it.

Aeonblade.8709:

Jeeze, 2 more pages of people trying to impress their definitions on others. Think it’s time to flag this post and get it closed. It’s nothing but two sides arguing over whose is bigger at this point.

Moderator.9604:

Hello everyone.
We want to remind you to keep this thread healthy, productive and respectful. Otherwise, we will have to close it.

I think also this thread is long due for a lock. It’s unhealthy!

It’s funny watching all the champions of this game twist and turn and lie over and over and change definitions to defend their position. It’s pretty spectacular the level of denial this thread contains. All the people who realized this game was P2W left already and are waiting for an actual sub game where they hope they won’t be nickle and dimed for every last look and feature.