Guild Wars 2

I’ve read at least four separate threads today that contained complaints that were based on the logical foundation that every game needs a carrot on a stick to lead the player forward through it, or people will lose interest. This raised an interesting question for me:

Seriously, guys? Really?

I mean, is this what modern gaming culture is now, or is this just a temporary theme that will kind of dissipate over time?

Being in my late 20’s, I grew up on video games as they originated (Or, at least fairly close to how they originated.) Mario and other NES games did not have a “carrot on the end of the stick.” The reward you got for playing the game was the enjoyment you got out of playing the game itself.

It seems to me like you are all coming into every single modern video game with some sort of self imposed sense of righteousness, like the developers OWE you for choosing to play their game.

Lots of modern MMOs imposed the “carrot on a stick” rule because they realized that their games would stagnate over time, and they needed a way to keep people running on the treadmill and shelling out $15 a month in order to stay afloat in a dog eat dog business world.

Guess what? This is a free to play game. That mentality is absurdist and would not contribute to the kind of game and community Arenanet has chosen to create for us.

Anyway, I’m not a fanboy. I do like Arenanet. I do like Guild Wars 2. I like lot’s of other things too, and I have plenty of problems with the game.

However, it’d be really great if people could just man up and admit that maybe they need to alter their perceived notions of what should and should not be expected when entering into an online world.

It used to be “Give them shiny, bright colored objects at every turn to keep them distracted.” Guild Wars 2 is trying to make it, “Give them shiny, bright colored objects occasionally, sure, but let’s make sure that the real meat of the game is having fun in between those moments.”

TL;DR Version:

If you don’t like the game, don’t play it. Don’t try to change the reward structure for the rest of us who do like the game. We were it’s intended recipients, as such has been clearly stated by Arenanet many, many times.

I’ve read posts you’re referring to. Plenty of them.

I’ve also read posts that had the similar vibe to yours. I like the latter better.

I too enjoy this game a lot and it’s coming from a person who was interested in the game when it was first announced that it’s going to be made. I followed the updates for a very short time as I eventually got bored. I get bored with games easy.

Like I’ve mentioned it to many people I talk about GW2 to, this is a first game in a long time that I want to be playing when I am not playing it rather than log in and get into it as I go along.

Thank you ArenaNet and thank you to people like you who appreciate what was done for us for a measly $60. I know this game has plenty of people like that as I’ve seen some great members of the community and they single-handedly cancel out all the negativity.

So what if I get bored with it slightly less quickly than the typical game. It’s the most amount of fun I had in a while and I have a feeling if I step away from the game for a while when I decide to come back there is going to be more awesome things that have been introduced.

It’s the skinner box.

A design concept that has plagued MMOs so hard people genuinely think it’s good.
It’s how you keep subs up, creating the illusion that you’re progressing.

In reality, you don’t though, you still stay in the same city, doing the same raid until you move onto a new raid and repeat until updates stop.

To these people this is all that endgame can possibly be, shuffling you onto the assembly line for no real reason. It may as well be cosmetic because the bosses scale up and you don’t unlock anything new.

I want GW2 to change this, but it won’t because this concept has been so deeply entrenched into the genre that it’s become a core design.

It’s a buy to play game with a cash shop. Nothing free about it. ANet makes their money by people continuing to play the game after their initial purchase. Without an income, the game will shut down.
The problem with your mario example is once you beat it there was really no need to replay it.
MMOs are meant to be replayed.

Anyway, I don’t think you needed to create a separate thread for this. You should have just added your opinion to the already existing threads for this topic.
;)

There’s nothing at all stopping you from replaying it.

Grinding raids every week is not replaying the game. Take the people who log in once to complete a raid? Nothing happens because al they do is sit in the capital city waiting for LFR to tick down.

i think most if not ALL people complaining about lack of “endgame” are the no-lifers who play too much.
and no game right now can deal with them.
i say they can quit.
come back later, the door will always be open.

i have pity for them.
they really are the ones hurting themselves more.
and then saying the problem is the game? after like 300h in 3 weeks.

anyway.
GW2 is amazing, huge, and perfectly fine for a gamer who will spend 15h a week in the game. (thats normal, right?)

Take it or Leave it is something no developer will say to its potential client base especially when the developers clearly want the largest possible playerbase to support it. Well unless you are Apple then yeah they dare say it as their fan base is..slavish in its devotion.

i personally feel ANet could really do more to keep more players ingame.

Pretty sure Mario had a carrot on the stick at the end of every castle right up until the last one.

let the game “stabilize” before dishing out some
endgame stuff.
make sure the “freak players” dont burn everything and ruin it for the 90%+ regular/sane gamers.

Why do people keep using the term free to play for buy to play games? What is so difficult about it?

RoRo.8270:

Why do people keep using the term free to play for buy to play games? What is so difficult about it?

Does it really matter?

RoRo.8270:

Why do people keep using the term free to play for buy to play games? What is so difficult about it?

Is that really all you got from this thread?

Buy to play. You know exactly what I meant.

Bluebird.1890:

Being in my late 20’s, I grew up on video games as they originated (Or, at least fairly close to how they originated.) Mario and other NES games did not have a “carrot on the end of the stick.” The reward you got for playing the game was the enjoyment you got out of playing the game itself.

I’m a bit older and my game education started with Quake multiplayer, but i agree with the sentiment; it is perfectly possible to have people play a game for years, many hours a week – without any carrot on a stick – without so-called progression except for the human behind the keyboard becoming more skilled.
The enjoyment is the thrill of combat, the reward is victory – or even just a game well played.

Just look at all those offline games that people keep playing, none of which have a carrot on a stick: ie football, paintball etc.

Tradewind.6913:

RoRo.8270:

Why do people keep using the term free to play for buy to play games? What is so difficult about it?

Does it really matter?

Yes. XBox games aren’t free to play, they require you to buy it. GW2 isn’t free to play, they require you to buy it.

Free to play games are games that rely EXCLUSIVELY of selling cosmetics, services, or for web-browser games, power.

The key difference here, which can actually be noted in game, is that in GW2 you are able to convert gold into gems, which would not be the case if it was FREE to play. They already made a large amount of money selling the game, so they don’t have to rely on selling gems.

Psilocin.1435:

Tradewind.6913:

RoRo.8270:

Why do people keep using the term free to play for buy to play games? What is so difficult about it?

Does it really matter?

Yes. XBox games aren’t free to play, they require you to buy it. GW2 isn’t free to play, they require you to buy it.

Free to play games are games that rely EXCLUSIVELY of selling cosmetics, services, or for web-browser games, power.

The key difference here, which can actually be noted in game, is that in GW2 you are able to convert gold into gems, which would not be the case if it was FREE to play. They already made a large amount of money selling the game, so they don’t have to rely on selling gems.

So where does it matter? You’re arguing semantics and talking about optional services.

When was the last time an XBox game had free content updates for the entire lifetime of the game without charging anything extra for it?

Can we stay on topic and not let a troll hijack this thread? :P

Gave.9408:

Bluebird.1890:

Can we stay on topic and not let a troll hijack this thread? :P

What’s the topic? “OMG, U PPL R SO DUM. CRRT ON STK, GO BK 2 WOW”

If so, I much prefer the derailed version.

No. Your verbage contains an implicit disrespect for players that enjoy the WoW playstyle.

I would like them to find a game that caters to their tastes, and play that, instead of trying to change mine.

Thanks for your additional attempt to derail the thread though.

helladoom.4317:

Bluebird.1890:

Being in my late 20’s, I grew up on video games as they originated (Or, at least fairly close to how they originated.) Mario and other NES games did not have a “carrot on the end of the stick.” The reward you got for playing the game was the enjoyment you got out of playing the game itself.

I’m a bit older and my game education started with Quake multiplayer, but i agree with the sentiment; it is perfectly possible to have people play a game for years, many hours a week – without any carrot on a stick – without so-called progression except for the human behind the keyboard becoming more skilled.
The enjoyment is the thrill of combat, the reward is victory – or even just a game well played.

Just look at all those offline games that people keep playing, none of which have a carrot on a stick: ie football, paintball etc.

Football and paintball or quake isn’t exactly the same generie as Guild Wars 2, your argument is invalid.

Bluebird.1890:

Gave.9408:

Bluebird.1890:

Can we stay on topic and not let a troll hijack this thread? :P

What’s the topic? “OMG, U PPL R SO DUM. CRRT ON STK, GO BK 2 WOW”

If so, I much prefer the derailed version.

No. Your verbage contains an implicit disrespect for players that enjoy the WoW playstyle.

I would like them to find a game that caters to their tastes, and play that, instead of trying to change mine.

Thanks for your additional attempt to derail the thread though.

This is our game as well. We paid as much, if not more than you did.

While I don’t much care about the traditional carrot on a stick, I do care that I there doesn’t seem to be any guild activities for those that have guild larger than 5 ppl.

Deith:

Let’s use Ultima Online then, which is in the exact same genre as Guild Wars 2, where all of Helladoom’s logic still applies 100%.

No gear treadmill (All upgrades were primarily aesthetic at max skill level).
Still fun.
Put hundreds upon hundreds of hours into the game.

Stop picking at semantics.

You guys really have no ground to stand on here. You just use the same arguments over and over, and then troll when people blow them apart.

Azzras.8041:

Bluebird.1890:

Gave.9408:

Bluebird.1890:

Can we stay on topic and not let a troll hijack this thread? :P

What’s the topic? “OMG, U PPL R SO DUM. CRRT ON STK, GO BK 2 WOW”

If so, I much prefer the derailed version.

No. Your verbage contains an implicit disrespect for players that enjoy the WoW playstyle.

I would like them to find a game that caters to their tastes, and play that, instead of trying to change mine.

Thanks for your additional attempt to derail the thread though.

This is our game as well. We paid as much, if not more than you did.

While I don’t much care about the traditional carrot on a stick, I do care that I there doesn’t seem to be any guild activities for those that have guild larger than 5 ppl.

If you don’t care that there is no traditional carrot on a stick, and the purpose of this thread was to request that we keep the carrot on a stick out of the game, then why exactly did you just group yourself into the audience of people that I was clearly defining this post at?

You obviously aren’t amongst them.

/boggle

Avatar.1923:

i think most if not ALL people complaining about lack of “endgame” are the no-lifers who play too much.
and no game right now can deal with them.
i say they can quit.
come back later, the door will always be open.

i have pity for them.
they really are the ones hurting themselves more.
and then saying the problem is the game? after like 300h in 3 weeks.

anyway.
GW2 is amazing, huge, and perfectly fine for a gamer who will spend 15h a week in the game. (thats normal, right?)

Such a cop out… This game should have been designed AND released with ALL of its customers in mind. This includes the “no lifers”. Everyone knew that people were going to rush to 80. Everyone knew there was going to be people competing for world firsts.

You can’t say that the hardcore community is too small to worry about either…its a rather large portion of the customer base…far to big to ignore and be successful.

Im guessing you aren’t at level cap and don’t see how truly broken and under developed/polished this game is.

Also …no one cares if you play 1 hour or 100 hours a week. They care about how much they play. A successful MMO will target all playstyles and 80 is very…very easy to get.

I consider myself a gamer and not a MMO player. Thus, my philosophy is that once I hit a point where the game is no longer offering new or fun content I take a break and pursue my hobby elsewhere, I can always return to GW 2 when new content is added. I don’t see myself exhausting GW 2 anytime soon, I’m still level 60 on my main and have much to do.

robot.9134:

Avatar.1923:

i think most if not ALL people complaining about lack of “endgame” are the no-lifers who play too much.
and no game right now can deal with them.
i say they can quit.
come back later, the door will always be open.

i have pity for them.
they really are the ones hurting themselves more.
and then saying the problem is the game? after like 300h in 3 weeks.

anyway.
GW2 is amazing, huge, and perfectly fine for a gamer who will spend 15h a week in the game. (thats normal, right?)

Such a cop out… This game should have been designed AND released with ALL of its customers in mind. This includes the “no lifers”. Everyone knew that people were going to rush to 80. Everyone knew there was going to be people competing for world firsts.

You can’t say that the hardcore community is too small to worry about either…its a rather large portion of the customer base…far to big to ignore and be successful.

Im guessing you aren’t at level cap and don’t see how truly broken and under developed/polished this game is.

Also …no one cares if you play 1 hour or 100 hours a week. They care about how much they play. A successful MMO will target all playstyles and 80 is very…very easy to get.

I have many, many hours invested into the game split between two characters, amongst the different realms of play (WvWvW, SPVP, PVE, Exploration) and I have not hit 80 yet on any character.

I haven’t bought a cultural item. I haven’t investigated Order armor yet. I haven’t gotten an exotic. I haven’t played with the Mystic Forge outside of SPVP. I haven’t set foot in most of the dungeons.

I have maybe 39% world completion?

Seriously, man. You guys are among the vocal minority, and you will have to be patient. Arenanet has already said they plan lots of free incremental content between large expansions, just like with GW1.

Almost every MMO that comes out is the basics. You get new high end content as time goes by, and by now, you would think everyone would be used to not rushing to 80 and complaining. Arenanet even made it clear that it was not the intended playstyle for their game.

You guys didn’t listen, and now you’re complaining like you’re entitled to it anyway. It’s completely and totally absurd, and quite entertaining to behold.

Bluebird.1890:

Being in my late 20’s, I grew up on video games as they originated (Or, at least fairly close to how they originated.) Mario and other NES games did not have a “carrot on the end of the stick.” The reward you got for playing the game was the enjoyment you got out of playing the game itself.

Actually, Mario DOES apply a carrot. The unlocking of levels and the goal of defeating the game is the carrot applied by Mario games (and, in fact, most single-player video games).

This is called “progression.”

I’m not saying I agree or disagree with people who demand a carrot in their MMOs. I definitely disagree with the idea that a gear treadmill needs to be in place, but that’s only quibbling over the type of carrot to be employed.

Personally, I’m of a mind that the best progression at end-game is player-made progression. That’s also why I believe that the best MMOs are games that meld the themepark story and gameplay seamlessly with sandbox freedom.

I also believe that this game is only a couple weeks old, and has plenty of time to grow into something bigger than it currently is. And I’m not paying a subscription fee anyway, so I have all the time in the world to wait and see if it pans out.

Bluebird.1890:

Azzras.8041:

Bluebird.1890:

Gave.9408:

Bluebird.1890:

Can we stay on topic and not let a troll hijack this thread? :P

What’s the topic? “OMG, U PPL R SO DUM. CRRT ON STK, GO BK 2 WOW”

If so, I much prefer the derailed version.

No. Your verbage contains an implicit disrespect for players that enjoy the WoW playstyle.

I would like them to find a game that caters to their tastes, and play that, instead of trying to change mine.

Thanks for your additional attempt to derail the thread though.

This is our game as well. We paid as much, if not more than you did.

While I don’t much care about the traditional carrot on a stick, I do care that I there doesn’t seem to be any guild activities for those that have guild larger than 5 ppl.

If you don’t care that there is no traditional carrot on a stick, and the purpose of this thread was to request that we keep the carrot on a stick out of the game, then why exactly did you just group yourself into the audience of people that I was clearly defining this post at?

You obviously aren’t amongst them.

/boggle

You misunderstand, there is a carrot on a stick in GW2. Aesthetic gear upgrades.

What I don’t appreciate is your tone. I’m not attacking you, so please be civil and respectful.

robot.9134:

Avatar.1923:

i think most if not ALL people complaining about lack of “endgame” are the no-lifers who play too much.
and no game right now can deal with them.
i say they can quit.
come back later, the door will always be open.

i have pity for them.
they really are the ones hurting themselves more.
and then saying the problem is the game? after like 300h in 3 weeks.

anyway.
GW2 is amazing, huge, and perfectly fine for a gamer who will spend 15h a week in the game. (thats normal, right?)

Such a cop out… This game should have been designed AND released with ALL of its customers in mind. This includes the “no lifers”. Everyone knew that people were going to rush to 80. Everyone knew there was going to be people competing for world firsts.

You can’t say that the hardcore community is too small to worry about either…its a rather large portion of the customer base…far to big to ignore and be successful.

Im guessing you aren’t at level cap and don’t see how truly broken and under developed/polished this game is.

Also …no one cares if you play 1 hour or 100 hours a week. They care about how much they play. A successful MMO will target all playstyles and 80 is very…very easy to get.

No mmorpg will ever be designed with “no lifers” in mind. No matter what devs do those people will always rush to the end and a lot of them will then turn around and say something along the lines of “reached level cap, nothing to do”. It never fails.

Bluebird.1890:

robot.9134:

Avatar.1923:

i think most if not ALL people complaining about lack of “endgame” are the no-lifers who play too much.
and no game right now can deal with them.
i say they can quit.
come back later, the door will always be open.

i have pity for them.
they really are the ones hurting themselves more.
and then saying the problem is the game? after like 300h in 3 weeks.

anyway.
GW2 is amazing, huge, and perfectly fine for a gamer who will spend 15h a week in the game. (thats normal, right?)

Such a cop out… This game should have been designed AND released with ALL of its customers in mind. This includes the “no lifers”. Everyone knew that people were going to rush to 80. Everyone knew there was going to be people competing for world firsts.

You can’t say that the hardcore community is too small to worry about either…its a rather large portion of the customer base…far to big to ignore and be successful.

Im guessing you aren’t at level cap and don’t see how truly broken and under developed/polished this game is.

Also …no one cares if you play 1 hour or 100 hours a week. They care about how much they play. A successful MMO will target all playstyles and 80 is very…very easy to get.

I have many, many hours invested into the game split between two characters, amongst the different realms of play (WvWvW, SPVP, PVE, Exploration) and I have not hit 80 yet on any character.

I haven’t bought a cultural item. I haven’t investigated Order armor yet. I haven’t gotten an exotic. I haven’t played with the Mystic Forge outside of SPVP. I haven’t set foot in most of the dungeons.

I have maybe 39% world completion?

Yeah, I don’t understand how these people do it. I literally have no life, and spend 4-10 hours a day on GW2, and my highest character is level 71. I’ve only done one storymode dungeon, and I have something like 30% world completion.

Everyone knew that people were going to rush to 80. Everyone knew there was going to be people competing for etc etc etc

Does this game even keep track of world firsts?

I don’t think it does.

Why rush to 80? No one has ever really given me a valid reason for this, and I really am curious. With nothing to do after hitting level 80, why don’t people just slow down and enjoy the game?

And as I’ve said before, if your enjoyment of the game is solely around rushing to level 80, then just keep making new characters to rush to level 80. If you consider my previous statement to be ‘missing the point,’ then that means you really don’t enjoy rushing to 80 and are only doing it to get this so-called ‘world first.’

When I get to 80, I’m SO claiming I got there first, just because I don’t think there’s any way to check that.

Bluebird.1890:

Lots of modern MMOs imposed the “carrot on a stick” rule because they realized that their games would stagnate over time, and they needed a way to keep people running
.

Well at least those games had longevity. I would say the pve aspect of the game has become stagnant allready and the game isn`t a month into release yet. Hitting lvl 80 came pretty fast going through the zones doing the events and that was great. i felt like it wasn`t grindy. And I am glad it was that way because if the lvling was slower, by the time you got to 80 and saw how the game just flatlines, you would be smacking yourself for investing so much time in it.

Now granted, the gameplay is alot of fun and they took an extreme amount of time to handcraft a gigantic world that is the most impressive of any mmo i ever played over the past decade. Sure, you can go back to other lower zones and explore more. But you will know that will never get anything of use from them. You are just playing sightseer. There has to be a driving factor to make you want to continue. You cannot progress your characters strengths anymore. All you can do is rinse and repeat rewardless content over and over. They just gave you a huge gameworld so you have more variety of places to go. But in every zone it`s the same events repeating themselves every 5-10 minutes with something big spawning every hour or so.

I have completed a karma god armor set and have good weapons. Where do I go from there? I could turn my focus to crafting and spend the next few months gathering mats to max a skill. Don`t sound very exciting. How long can you play a game that has no goals or rewards before you get bored?

If they added some boss specific loot to some of the dungeons it would really make them worth doing. God bless the poor souls grinding tokens for an armor set. I don`t envy them. But if they spread some max lvl green uniques around some of the dungeons, they would be bustling with activity. Because people love the treasure hunt.

I love the game. I really do. But I think they could of done a few things differently to turn an amazing game into a perfect game. Some people may think it`s perfect as is, and that`s cool. everyone has a preference and a vision of what thier ideal mmo would be like. But from someone who has played mmo`s for over 10 years you kind of get the feel for what makes a game worth playing for a long time. A few tweaks here and there and this game could put nails in world of warcrafts coffin.

Avatar.1923:

i think most if not ALL people complaining about lack of “endgame” are the no-lifers who play too much.
and no game right now can deal with them.
i say they can quit.
come back later, the door will always be open.

i have pity for them.
they really are the ones hurting themselves more.
and then saying the problem is the game? after like 300h in 3 weeks.

anyway.
GW2 is amazing, huge, and perfectly fine for a gamer who will spend 15h a week in the game. (thats normal, right?)

I wouldn’t say they are ‘no-lifers’ but they devour content quickly. No game can really hold them and they just go from MMO to MMO doing this. They will return to GW2 when new content returns though.

I wouldn’t say it’s good or bad…it just is you know?

How many people are level 80 I wonder, if you spend 2 hours a day playing this game I think it’ll take you minimal 2 weeks to reach that, for some they may randomly skip days and have that take close to a month.

Azzras.8041:

Bluebird.1890:

Azzras.8041:

Bluebird.1890:

Gave.9408:

Bluebird.1890:

Can we stay on topic and not let a troll hijack this thread? :P

What’s the topic? “OMG, U PPL R SO DUM. CRRT ON STK, GO BK 2 WOW”

If so, I much prefer the derailed version.

No. Your verbage contains an implicit disrespect for players that enjoy the WoW playstyle.

I would like them to find a game that caters to their tastes, and play that, instead of trying to change mine.

Thanks for your additional attempt to derail the thread though.

This is our game as well. We paid as much, if not more than you did.

While I don’t much care about the traditional carrot on a stick, I do care that I there doesn’t seem to be any guild activities for those that have guild larger than 5 ppl.

If you don’t care that there is no traditional carrot on a stick, and the purpose of this thread was to request that we keep the carrot on a stick out of the game, then why exactly did you just group yourself into the audience of people that I was clearly defining this post at?

You obviously aren’t amongst them.

/boggle

You misunderstand, there is a carrot on a stick in GW2. Aesthetic gear upgrades.

What I don’t appreciate is your tone. I’m not attacking you, so please be civil and respectful.

I don’t appreciate your inability to discern the intent of a post prior to responding to it, so I guess we’re even.

This post is against the idea of a gear treadmill that will increase the gap between a fresh 80 and someone who has been 80 for a year beyond anything that currently exists, not the idea of aesthetic upgrades or cosmetic drops.

Let me clearly define my intent, since I have obviously not articulated it properly for you:

Guild Wars 2 is not a power treadmill, and it never will be.

My post was not aimed at people who want:
- Larger group content
- More areas to explore
- Further aesthetic options to unlock
- New SPVP features.
- Any variation of the above.

My post was aimed at the “wah, the loot isn’t good enough” or “wah, I finished map completion/killed x boss and got nothing better than what I already had” or “wah, I farmed a DE for hours and got ONE yellow that wasn’t even usable by my class” crowd.

Is that better? Can we stick to the subject at hand now?

While I agree that playing is its own reward I sat in at least four Champion fights this weekend that lasted over 15 min each. They were tedious, I just ran around dodging the big attacks, rezing and sitting there attacking, for 15 min…When the boss died people just went about their business like nothing ever happened.

After four of them, I started asking why. Why did I spend 15 min killing that thing, it wasn’t really pleasurable, it didn’t really challenge me it just took a lot of time. I got the reward of any DE, exp, karma and a modest amount of copper. But it was not fun, I lost any sense of change in the world as places rarely fall back into enemy hands at this point.

Perhaps it would be more fun if once in a while things just kicked our butt and we lost control. Then we are fighting to change something not maintain it. The most fun I had was defending an outpost when it was me and maybe two others. We got stomped and lost the DE, Centaurs took over the camp.

Carrots on a stick are one reason to grab attention and keep interest going. Next time I see a group event with a Giant destroying everyone, I’ll probably walk on by. I don’t want to spend 15 min peppering him with my rifle just waiting for skill 3 and 4 to recharge so I can hit those buttons.

GrimShade.8091:

While I agree that playing is its own reward I sat in at least four Champion fights this weekend that lasted over 15 min each. They were tedious, I just ran around dodging the big attacks, rezing and sitting there attacking, for 15 min…When the boss died people just went about their business like nothing ever happened.

After four of them, I started asking why. Why did I spend 15 min killing that thing, it wasn’t really pleasurable, it didn’t really challenge me it just took a lot of time. I got the reward of any DE, exp, karma and a modest amount of copper. But it was not fun, I lost any sense of change in the world as places rarely fall back into enemy hands at this point.

Perhaps it would be more fun if once in a while things just kicked our butt and we lost control. Then we are fighting to change something not maintain it. The most fun I had was defending an outpost when it was me and maybe two others. We got stomped and lost the DE, Centaurs took over the camp.

Carrots on a stick are one reason to grab attention and keep interest going. Next time I see a group event with a Giant destroying everyone, I’ll probably walk on by. I don’t want to spend 15 min peppering him with my rifle just waiting for skill 3 and 4 to recharge so I can hit those buttons.

A reasonable response, and one of the problems I alluded to having in the initial post (Though I didn’t really flesh them out.)

The problem here though is that the boss fights in question just aren’t fun, in my opinion.

At least, not after having done them once.

GrimShade.8091:

While I agree that playing is its own reward I sat in at least four Champion fights this weekend that lasted over 15 min each. They were tedious, I just ran around dodging the big attacks, rezing and sitting there attacking, for 15 min…When the boss died people just went about their business like nothing ever happened.

After four of them, I started asking why. Why did I spend 15 min killing that thing, it wasn’t really pleasurable, it didn’t really challenge me it just took a lot of time. I got the reward of any DE, exp, karma and a modest amount of copper. But it was not fun, I lost any sense of change in the world as places rarely fall back into enemy hands at this point.

Perhaps it would be more fun if once in a while things just kicked our butt and we lost control. Then we are fighting to change something not maintain it. The most fun I had was defending an outpost when it was me and maybe two others. We got stomped and lost the DE, Centaurs took over the camp.

Carrots on a stick are one reason to grab attention and keep interest going. Next time I see a group event with a Giant destroying everyone, I’ll probably walk on by. I don’t want to spend 15 min peppering him with my rifle just waiting for skill 3 and 4 to recharge so I can hit those buttons.

Honestly…as a big GW2 fan I think this is the biggest problem.

The DEs are not difficult enough. If they make the DEs just difficult, maybe even as hard as the dungeon mobs and make them require coordination from those that do show up you are going to see a different game. I’ve seen DE’s fail and that DE failing affecting another DE. It’s a beautiful thing to see a escort mission halted because a bridge was just blown up and now you have to help rebuild the bridge and get the people across.

I think if the DEs were more fun, they’d be more rewarding regardless of loot. Right now they are just way way way too easy.

metaverse.6821:

GrimShade.8091:

While I agree that playing is its own reward I sat in at least four Champion fights this weekend that lasted over 15 min each. They were tedious, I just ran around dodging the big attacks, rezing and sitting there attacking, for 15 min…When the boss died people just went about their business like nothing ever happened.

After four of them, I started asking why. Why did I spend 15 min killing that thing, it wasn’t really pleasurable, it didn’t really challenge me it just took a lot of time. I got the reward of any DE, exp, karma and a modest amount of copper. But it was not fun, I lost any sense of change in the world as places rarely fall back into enemy hands at this point.

Perhaps it would be more fun if once in a while things just kicked our butt and we lost control. Then we are fighting to change something not maintain it. The most fun I had was defending an outpost when it was me and maybe two others. We got stomped and lost the DE, Centaurs took over the camp.

Carrots on a stick are one reason to grab attention and keep interest going. Next time I see a group event with a Giant destroying everyone, I’ll probably walk on by. I don’t want to spend 15 min peppering him with my rifle just waiting for skill 3 and 4 to recharge so I can hit those buttons.

Honestly…as a big GW2 fan I think this is the biggest problem.

The DEs are not difficult enough. If they make the DEs just difficult, maybe even as hard as the dungeon mobs and make them require coordination from those that do show up you are going to see a different game. I’ve seen DE’s fail and that DE failing affecting another DE. It’s a beautiful thing to see a escort mission halted because a bridge was just blown up and now you have to help rebuild the bridge and get the people across.

I think if the DEs were more fun, they’d be more rewarding regardless of loot. Right now they are just way way way too easy.

I think that the lack of challenge stems from the overabundance of participants and poor scaling for zergs.

When I run into events that have 3-4 players participating, they ARE challenging, and they ARE fun.

Something could definitely be done about the scaling. 100% agree :P

metaverse.6821:

Honestly…as a big GW2 fan I think this is the biggest problem.

The DEs are not difficult enough. If they make the DEs just difficult, maybe even as hard as the dungeon mobs and make them require coordination from those that do show up you are going to see a different game. I’ve seen DE’s fail and that DE failing affecting another DE. It’s a beautiful thing to see a escort mission halted because a bridge was just blown up and now you have to help rebuild the bridge and get the people across.

I think if the DEs were more fun, they’d be more rewarding regardless of loot. Right now they are just way way way too easy.

True, I’ll contrast to a Group event I did like. Spider boss: health went down at a fair pace, but at 75%, 50% 25% the boss was healed and a ton of baby spiders popped out that you needed to kill off. I needed to pay attention and switch weapons and targets during the fight. This little element added a huge amount of fun.

Scourge.4317:

robot.9134:

Avatar.1923:

i think most if not ALL people complaining about lack of “endgame” are the no-lifers who play too much.
and no game right now can deal with them.
i say they can quit.
come back later, the door will always be open.

i have pity for them.
they really are the ones hurting themselves more.
and then saying the problem is the game? after like 300h in 3 weeks.

anyway.
GW2 is amazing, huge, and perfectly fine for a gamer who will spend 15h a week in the game. (thats normal, right?)

Such a cop out… This game should have been designed AND released with ALL of its customers in mind. This includes the “no lifers”. Everyone knew that people were going to rush to 80. Everyone knew there was going to be people competing for world firsts.

You can’t say that the hardcore community is too small to worry about either…its a rather large portion of the customer base…far to big to ignore and be successful.

Im guessing you aren’t at level cap and don’t see how truly broken and under developed/polished this game is.

Also …no one cares if you play 1 hour or 100 hours a week. They care about how much they play. A successful MMO will target all playstyles and 80 is very…very easy to get.

No mmorpg will ever be designed with “no lifers” in mind. No matter what devs do those people will always rush to the end and a lot of them will then turn around and say something along the lines of “reached level cap, nothing to do”. It never fails.

The whole tiered WvW is kept competitive largely by the hardcore community. A game doesn’t necessarily have to be designed for them but if that community becomes a large part of the customer pop then they need to listen to them and make adjustments.

Right now my biggest gripe is pretty much any activity at level 80. You don’t have much to do… You can zerg DE’s, pvp, and grind dungeons…. I dont include map exploration as it is a novelty/joke but even that is broken. Crafting? Try gathering mats without going broke on the TP because anti farm code in ORR is broken.

All of those activities are pretty much what a lot of wow haters are complaining about wow!!! Its all just a big grind lol. Not even that…its a broken grind.

Leveling too fast definitely isn’t the problem here and using other MMO releases isn’t a good example because most have done it wrong too. I can almost guarantee you that by the time the average MMO player hits 80 that they will not have any additional content out. They can’t. They’ll just have the current issues fixed which is still underwhelming. They have too many issues at the moment to even start thinking about adding more.

An mmo shouldn’t be released with a mindset like…. “well the first half is good… we’ll just play catch up with the content of levels 60+ later…”

“Don’t rush level 80”
Your logic is broken because it will take me a week, a month or half a year but I’ll get to level 80 someday and then what you gonna tell me? That I rushed things? What’s gonna be so different?

Avatar.1923:

i think most if not ALL people complaining about lack of “endgame” are the no-lifers who play too much.
and no game right now can deal with them.
i say they can quit.
come back later, the door will always be open.

i have pity for them.
they really are the ones hurting themselves more.
and then saying the problem is the game? after like 300h in 3 weeks.

anyway.
GW2 is amazing, huge, and perfectly fine for a gamer who will spend 15h a week in the game. (thats normal, right?)

I suppose I fall under this category since I do have over 300 hours, However with this said… I don’t really have any complaints about this game. I actually got more than what I expected truth be told.

Side note to this.. Too assume all hardcore gamers complain over such silliness you sir are a moron! Just as bad as hardcore gamers who claim casual gamers ruin the game.
None the less. I am quite happy with Guild Wars 2, I have not enjoyed myself in a game like this for quite awhile now. <3 ArenaNet for the great job they have done, And I shall continue to support them as much as I can.

Though, I do wish they made a better ending for story. This I will not spoil though.

So I think there is a bigger issue as to why people are EXPECTING the proverbial carrot on a stick. Players are conditioned in GW2 to expect better gear as they level.

The ENTIRE leveling process can be considered gear progression. Stat levels increase as you go to higher level zones and acquire new gear. Once you hit lvl 80, that progression stops and there doesn’t seem to be anything that replaces it.

Untouch.2541:

It’s the skinner box.

A design concept that has plagued MMOs so hard people genuinely think it’s good.
It’s how you keep subs up, creating the illusion that you’re progressing.

In reality, you don’t though, you still stay in the same city, doing the same raid until you move onto a new raid and repeat until updates stop.

To these people this is all that endgame can possibly be, shuffling you onto the assembly line for no real reason. It may as well be cosmetic because the bosses scale up and you don’t unlock anything new.

I want GW2 to change this, but it won’t because this concept has been so deeply entrenched into the genre that it’s become a core design.

I agree with your post, but I don’t see how it needs to be a core design for GW. Basically, since there’s no subscription, there’s no need for hamster wheels; and there’s no reason for Anet to listen to people are so conditioned to hamster wheels that they really want them, either.

All Anet has to do is to ensure that there are enough people concurrent to keep the game world lively, and there are enough people who have enjoyed the game to a degree that they’re willing to buy another expansion a year down the line.

Neither of those two desiderata require Anet to design hamster wheels or skinner boxes.

“Don’t rush level 80”
Your logic is broken because it will take me a week, a month or half a year but I’ll get to level 80 someday and then what you gonna tell me? That I rushed things? What’s gonna be so different?

Because in a month or a year, there is a higher possibility of there being new content.

All MMOs release some of their material in stages. For example, the Cata expansion in WoW didn’t release everything all at once. Over time, I believe the raid where you defeat Deathwing was release, for example.

So let’s look at Guild Wars 2, which is designed around the idea that it will take the average player some time to get to level 80. Rightfully not catering to the people who reached level 80 in one week, ANet is very likely holding content back to release in the next few months so that the people who are playing the game at a reasonable pace don’t get bored. In fact, they’ve already stated that there will be updates on what is coming very shortly.

If I were a gaming company, I would do best to cater to those who play the game at a reasonable pace, not to those who play through it as quickly as possible.

ETA: …because if ANet had released everything they have ready on the first day, level 80s still would have already completed it and would be crying for more.

gurugeorge.9857:

Untouch.2541:

It’s the skinner box.

A design concept that has plagued MMOs so hard people genuinely think it’s good.
It’s how you keep subs up, creating the illusion that you’re progressing.

In reality, you don’t though, you still stay in the same city, doing the same raid until you move onto a new raid and repeat until updates stop.

To these people this is all that endgame can possibly be, shuffling you onto the assembly line for no real reason. It may as well be cosmetic because the bosses scale up and you don’t unlock anything new.

I want GW2 to change this, but it won’t because this concept has been so deeply entrenched into the genre that it’s become a core design.

I agree with your post, but I don’t see how it needs to be a core design for GW. Basically, since there’s no subscription, there’s no need for hamster wheels; and there’s no reason for Anet to listen to people are so conditioned to hamster wheels that they really want them, either.

All Anet has to do is to ensure that there are enough people concurrent to keep the game world lively, and there are enough people who have enjoyed the game to a degree that they’re willing to buy another expansion a year down the line.

Neither of those two desiderata require Anet to design hamster wheels or skinner boxes.

Stop with the ’there’s no sub fee so ANet doesn’t care if ppl play’ stuff. ANet needs players to buy things in the cash shop to continue upkeep of the game. Without players, GW2 will not thrive.

Banewrath.5107:

Because people love the treasure hunt.

THIS. This fits my playstyle exactly. I like to explore and treasure hunt. I kill everything indiscriminately just so I can see what it drops. I’ve gotten killed umpteen times (don’t mind it anymore), I have horrible collections of mats, and I find it disappointing when I put so much effort into killing something BIG and I get nada. The explorer in me kicks in and I just move on. There’s always something else new and big to kill, but… if I never find any treasure by the end of this game…I really hope that isn’t the case!

My highest level character is only 26. Hopefully, there is still a long way to go.

I applaud the theme behind the post. I genuinely do not grasp the logic behind players desiring more Pavlovian conditioning to get one more carrot. I think what appalls me the most is when people don’t even see it occurring to them.

Now, if people want to have a conversation about how to make the game provide more of the ‘wow we did it’ self-reward (yes, ok, it could be classed as a carrot, but it is at least a healthy carrot), or the ‘cool, I really had to engage my brain & think about my skills there’, ideally promoting self-worth rather than comparison-worth, then I’m up for that.

I like to explore and treasure hunt. I kill everything indiscriminately just so I can see what it drops. I’ve gotten killed umpteen times (don’t mind it anymore), I have horrible collections of mats, and I find it disappointing when I put so much effort into killing something BIG and I get nada. The explorer in me kicks in and I just move on. There’s always something else new and big to kill, but… if I never find any treasure by the end of this game…I really hope that isn’t the case!

What you describe requires an infinitely scaling loot table so that there is always something more shiny later on. That just isn’t practical. There’s always going to be a limit, or something else that gets in the way of you obtaining an item. What is deeply ironic & worrying about the complaints about e.g. dungeons vs rewards is that the primary complaint is that they’re too hard for too little reward, but if they weren’t, what’s next on the giant hamster wheel of loot?

Forgive me if I appear to be criticising your playstyle; I’m truly not. I am just trying to highlight that it’s got a fundamental limit somewhere along the line.

Azzras.8041:

gurugeorge.9857:

Untouch.2541:

It’s the skinner box.

A design concept that has plagued MMOs so hard people genuinely think it’s good.
It’s how you keep subs up, creating the illusion that you’re progressing.

In reality, you don’t though, you still stay in the same city, doing the same raid until you move onto a new raid and repeat until updates stop.

To these people this is all that endgame can possibly be, shuffling you onto the assembly line for no real reason. It may as well be cosmetic because the bosses scale up and you don’t unlock anything new.

I want GW2 to change this, but it won’t because this concept has been so deeply entrenched into the genre that it’s become a core design.

I agree with your post, but I don’t see how it needs to be a core design for GW. Basically, since there’s no subscription, there’s no need for hamster wheels; and there’s no reason for Anet to listen to people are so conditioned to hamster wheels that they really want them, either.

All Anet has to do is to ensure that there are enough people concurrent to keep the game world lively, and there are enough people who have enjoyed the game to a degree that they’re willing to buy another expansion a year down the line.

Neither of those two desiderata require Anet to design hamster wheels or skinner boxes.

Stop with the ’there’s no sub fee so ANet doesn’t care if ppl play’ stuff. ANet needs players to buy things in the cash shop to continue upkeep of the game. Without players, GW2 will not thrive.

No matter what the amount of content in a game, you can be assured that there will be a group of people that slam through the game. There could be 200+ viable hours of content in this game, and regardless, people will just sit at the computer and mow it all down like nothing.

Power through it all until they are finished and then demand more IMMEDIATELY! It is comparable to a drug addicts behavior- give them a huge amount of the substance for free, they will take it all in record time and still need more.

Maybe they are going through withdrawl? It is a good game. I honestly can envision some of the people posting shaking with need for more game !

Grammarye:

I really appreciate that someone saw what I was trying to say in the initial post. It wasn’t meant as an insult, and I obviously didn’t communicate it as well as I could have.

It simply gets tiring, to see so many people complaining over such trivial concepts for a service that has been released for less than a month, for which the developers have already stated they are going to release constant FREE content for.

It’s compounded by the pure confusion I experience when I read these threads, having put tons of time into the game already and not even having hit 80 myself.

I just don’t understand, is the problem. It’s alien to me.

If they added an event a few times a month where a gm operated mob would storm divinitys reach or lions arch. People would flock from every point of the map to participate and if they managed to kill it, they could get a bag with a few gold or a rare weapon that has an original gw1 skin or something. People go apesheet over that stuff.

People would want to be logged in to make sure they wouldn`t miss an event. Just imagine a giant rabid doylak rampaging through lions arch being controlled by a gm who is one shotting everyone. The gm could even summon player to him that are doing the most damage or players doing the least, completely random. On top of that have the gm taunt everyone during the battle calling people out by name and talking smack. Those would be events i would live for. That would break the boredom for sure.

Yes, mmos nowadays need carrot on stick, like raiding. The sooner devs realize it, the better