Guild Wars 2

I’ll just leave this here for you folks.

Olba.5376:

I’ll just leave this here for you folks.

You do realize, now when someone says they’re hard core, this is what I’ll think of.

Brilliant. lol

Tired of hearing these casual vs hardcore debates.

Casuals make up a majority of the player base, buy the fluff on the gem store, and pay for the bulk of new updates.

Hardcores push the content, force developers to make and develope new content, and are more proactive in identifying game issues.

A successful game needs both sets of players.

Peetee.9406:

Tired of hearing these casual vs hardcore debates.

Casuals make up a majority of the player base, buy the fluff on the gem store, and pay for the bulk of new updates.

Hardcores push the content, force developers to make and develope new content, and are more proactive in identifying game issues.

A successful game needs both sets of players.

Best post in the thread. Thanks for making it.

Vayne.8563:

Tamaki Revolution.3548:

Vayne.8563:

Tamaki Revolution.3548:

Please stop saying Hardcore Gamers. Making me puke a bit in my mouth. Also not a fan of “White Knight” :P

Oh I don’t know. I sort of like the whole white knight “moniker”. It’s so anti who I am in real life, it gives me a chuckle every time I see it.

Is it weird that I agree with you 80% of the time, but enjoy the rebuttals 100% of the time?

Not weird at all. A lot of people find me entertaining, even if they want to beat me to death with a trout.

I find it interesting how when you rebut someone, it provokes certain people to start attacking you personally. Lol. I figure those people got shown up and can’t rebut back so go for the old ad hominen attack.

Keep up the good work. ^^

Astral Projections.7320:

Vayne.8563:

Tamaki Revolution.3548:

Vayne.8563:

Tamaki Revolution.3548:

Please stop saying Hardcore Gamers. Making me puke a bit in my mouth. Also not a fan of “White Knight” :P

Oh I don’t know. I sort of like the whole white knight “moniker”. It’s so anti who I am in real life, it gives me a chuckle every time I see it.

Is it weird that I agree with you 80% of the time, but enjoy the rebuttals 100% of the time?

Not weird at all. A lot of people find me entertaining, even if they want to beat me to death with a trout.

I find it interesting how when you rebut someone, it provokes certain people to start attacking you personally. Lol. I figure those people got shown up and can’t rebut back so go for the old ad hominen attack.

Keep up the good work. ^^

LMAO! I’m a easy target…and I don’t mind. It says more about them than it does about me. I’m quite content to allow them to continue.

Yet another self righteous tryhard topic.

There’s a huge difference between flaws in gameplay mechanics and balance, and the developers appealing to the peasants. Unfortunately, running off the circular logic that a game that only caters to casual players is bad is well… circular.

If you don’t like it, fine. But going off on rants that the game is being ruined and the world is ending and other nonsensical hyperbole comes across as insanely self centered. Seeing vertical progression as a mandatory attribute of good gameplay for example, is of extreme tunnel vision.

Of course it just shows that the extremes of both sides leads to silly arguments. The player that doesn’t want to grind at all that gets mad when people have legendaries and they don’t, and the player that grinds too hard and gets mad when they see other people get legendaries have one thing in common:

ME ME ME

I am not successful in this game (successful defined by some insanely narrow metric that nobody cares about) thus people that are more successful either needs nerf or the gameplay mechanics must change. I will then spew some moralistic crap about how people are ruining the game when they play it differently from me. Of course, the way I play and view it is righteous and the only correct way the game should be designed.

If you want to complain, complain about the interface. Complain about why the trading post filters are so limited. Complain about why you can’t see other players in large fights. Complain about the camera angles having seizures. Complain about some areas of the game being less rewarding than others. Complain about how monsters do so much damage, that most of the defensive gear choices are useless anyways. Complain about how traits and skills don’t work. Complain about lying tooltips. Complain about misleading timers to reset. Complain about the lack of LFG. Complain about the poor drop rates. Complain about the poor risk vs to reward. Complain about regular transmutation stones.

But no, despite the fact that all of these issues are of function and nothing to do with how devoted someone is to a game, it’s always the games pandering to the LCD that causes games to magically collapse.

Or the problem could be with you. Nah.

ArchonWing.9480:

Yet another self righteous tryhard topic.

There’s a huge difference between flaws in gameplay mechanics and balance, and the developers appealing to the peasants. Unfortunately, running off the circular logic that a game that only caters to casual players is bad is well… circular.

If you don’t like it, fine. But going off on rants that the game is being ruined and the world is ending and other nonsensical hyperbole comes across as insanely self centered. Seeing vertical progression as a mandatory attribute of good gameplay for example, of extreme tunnel vision.

Of course it just shows that the extremes of both sides leads to silly arguments. The player that doesn’t want to grind at all that gets mad when people have legendaries and they don’t, and the player that grinds too hard and gets mad when they see other people get legendaries have one thing in common:

ME ME ME

I am not successful in this game (succesful defined by some insanely narrow metric that nobody cares about) thus people that are more successful either needs nerf or the gameplay mechanics must change. I will then spew some moralistic crap about how people are ruining the game when they play it differently from me. Of course, the way I play and view it is righteous and the only correct way the game should be designed.

If you want to complain, complain about the interface. Complain about why the trading post filters are so limited. Complain about why you can’t see other players in large fights. Complain about the camera angles having seizures. Complain about some areas of the game being less rewarding than others. Complain about how monsters do so much damage, that most of the defensive gear choices are useless anyways. Complain about how traits and skills don’t work. Complain about lying tooltips. Complain about misleading timers to reset. Complain about the lack of LFG. Complain about the poor drop rates. Complain about the poor risk vs to reward. Complain about regular transmutation stones.

But no, despite the fact that all of these issues are of function and nothing to do with how devoted someone is to a game, it’s always the games pandering to the LCD that causes games to magically collapse.

Or the problem could be with you. Nah.

This is another great post. There are plenty of legit things in this game that need fixing. Catering to casuals isn’t one of them.

As a casual, I disagree. GW2 is awesome.

On the other hand, catering to hardcore ruined many games. I’m happy that A.net doesn’t make that mistake.

Vayne.8563:

Olba.5376:

I’ll just leave this here for you folks.

You do realize, now when someone says they’re hard core, this is what I’ll think of.

Brilliant. lol

This link is Pegi 12?

On subject, imho GW2 lacks good bosses with interesting mechanisms. However it is the “hardcores” that ruined many games I played, because they loose sight of the game being a game and start cheating & exploiting in order to show most hardcore.

the uprising.6317:

No they didn’t they said if you like mmo’s you will like GW2, this is most blatantly not the case. Again, casual gamer or gtfo, I don’t know how you guys don’t see this as “backward” elitism.

Ahh I see your problem.

You stopped listening to the manifesto after "if you like MMOs you will ike GW2’. You must have turned off the video at that point because they said, just after ‘if you don’t like MMOs you will really like GW2’. You see this implies that the game would not be a, dare I say, traditional, MMO where you keep chasing the proverbial carrot that is new gear, as is true in so many other MMOs.

It is implied, nay it is straight up stated, that being forced to grind for new and better gear was not their goal when making this game. That is why so many people were upset when Ascended Gear was introduced into the game, me being one of those people.

This game was not designed for ‘hardcore’ (read as: plays the game constantly and may take off work when new content is added) or ‘elite’ (read as: bases how awesome they are on how fast they can kill something in a game) type players. This game is not for those types of people. I mean, sure they will play it but they will get bored quickly, stop playing, come back when there is new content, beat it all in a day, two if they are sick or (god forbid) working and then complain about how there is no endgame. Lather rinse repeat.

Simply put, this game was designed with the casual player in mind and, the sooner you accept that, the better.

Arkham Creed.7358:

Skinner Box nonsense …

Wish people would stop throwing that term around as if it automatically validates their argument.

I don’t know why all you “hardcore” players see “casual” play as the enemy or a bad thing.

I am far from a casual player myself as I spend too many hours here every day yet I still think the game is GOOD and one of the best available and I pretty much ALWAYS have something to do in game. If not I take a break and do/play something else for a while/change. Breaks are good you know!

You say there is NO content for hardcore players? This is so not true. When systems are in the game such as WvW and sPvP there is ENDLESS content you just have to decide if you enjoy DOING that content or not. You know play the game for actual FUN and not for a carrot at the end of a stick.

Don’t give me any nonsence that you have to do x 1000 hours or y a 1000 times to earn a reward to be considered 1 of the best players because that is just a delusion. Trust me I used to play another game (for 10+ years) where this was the mindset and focus and after so long doing that you soon realise it’s not a form of fun but if anything a form of slavery or a drug to feed YOUR addicition.

My opinion, Anet has got things right in trying to bring back the FUN to games and this is so important in todays gaming reality when we live in the Xbox/Ps3 console gaming era where it’s all pick up and play online gaming fun.

Here we have threads saying that gw2 is NOT catering to casuals and now there is one saying casual catering is ruining the game. Ho ho ho…

Mirta.5029:

the uprising.6317:

No they said the game was for everyone.

This is what you’re doing right now. Let’s say you saw an advertisement of DOOM. The first DOOM game. And it said “FPS shooter. This game is for everyone.”. You buy it having that information, you play it and go “how is this game for everyone if I can’t duel wield swords?” completely forgetting that the advertisement even stated that it’s a shooter.
Guild Wars 2 never hid the fact that it will have no gear progression. The same way that it never hid the fact that it will have no trinity. You can’t buy a game knowing its main advertising points and then claim that it should have it, even though the advertising said that it won’t.
This game is what it is and what it stated to be. If this type of MMO is not for you, then it’s not for you, you can’t change it, or claim that nobody likes it for what it is.

the uprising.6317:

So now its supposed to be the alternative to WoW, which ironically has a huge casual following?

WoW does not have a huge casual following. For one thing no casual would agree to pay a monthly fee just to play once a week or so. It simply does not pay when there are B2P and F2P MMOs out there.

Wrong, and wrong again.

Don’t confuse “casual” with “cheap kitten ”. WoW is 99% casual 1% Hardcore and it has been since release.

Nappychappy.7046:

Mirta.5029:

the uprising.6317:

No they said the game was for everyone.

This is what you’re doing right now. Let’s say you saw an advertisement of DOOM. The first DOOM game. And it said “FPS shooter. This game is for everyone.”. You buy it having that information, you play it and go “how is this game for everyone if I can’t duel wield swords?” completely forgetting that the advertisement even stated that it’s a shooter.
Guild Wars 2 never hid the fact that it will have no gear progression. The same way that it never hid the fact that it will have no trinity. You can’t buy a game knowing its main advertising points and then claim that it should have it, even though the advertising said that it won’t.
This game is what it is and what it stated to be. If this type of MMO is not for you, then it’s not for you, you can’t change it, or claim that nobody likes it for what it is.

the uprising.6317:

So now its supposed to be the alternative to WoW, which ironically has a huge casual following?

WoW does not have a huge casual following. For one thing no casual would agree to pay a monthly fee just to play once a week or so. It simply does not pay when there are B2P and F2P MMOs out there.

Wrong, and wrong again.

Don’t confuse “casual” with “cheap kitten ”. WoW is 99% casual 1% Hardcore and it has been since release.

Actually, I agree with this. Maybe not about the actual percentage, but I believe the percentage of casual wow players to be huge. Much much higher than hard core.

Eridani.8317:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Skinner Box nonsense …

Wish people would stop throwing that term around as if it automatically validates their argument.

What if it actually validates the argument? Are people allowed to use valid arguments? Like how wanting gear grind is textbook skinner box behaviour?

Why again is not casual = “I wan’t gear grind and gear treadmill”?

Casual usually means two things: You’re either playing just from time to time and often a small amount of time per session, or you’re playing casually, as in trying to relax, not putting in much effort and don’t caring too much about challenges in particular.

While there are of course hardcore players who enjoy a gear treadmill and gear grind, there are also those who enjoy challenging content. And right now there is basically no challenging content, which is really sad.
A hardmode for the currently existing dungeons would easily satisfy a lot of the more ambitious players for quite some time. It doesn’t even necessarily have to end in better rewards. An achievement would probably be more than enough of an incentive that most players need.

Vayne.8563:

Nappychappy.7046:

Mirta.5029:

the uprising.6317:

No they said the game was for everyone.

This is what you’re doing right now. Let’s say you saw an advertisement of DOOM. The first DOOM game. And it said “FPS shooter. This game is for everyone.”. You buy it having that information, you play it and go “how is this game for everyone if I can’t duel wield swords?” completely forgetting that the advertisement even stated that it’s a shooter.
Guild Wars 2 never hid the fact that it will have no gear progression. The same way that it never hid the fact that it will have no trinity. You can’t buy a game knowing its main advertising points and then claim that it should have it, even though the advertising said that it won’t.
This game is what it is and what it stated to be. If this type of MMO is not for you, then it’s not for you, you can’t change it, or claim that nobody likes it for what it is.

the uprising.6317:

So now its supposed to be the alternative to WoW, which ironically has a huge casual following?

WoW does not have a huge casual following. For one thing no casual would agree to pay a monthly fee just to play once a week or so. It simply does not pay when there are B2P and F2P MMOs out there.

Wrong, and wrong again.

Don’t confuse “casual” with “cheap kitten ”. WoW is 99% casual 1% Hardcore and it has been since release.

Actually, I agree with this. Maybe not about the actual percentage, but I believe the percentage of casual wow players to be huge. Much much higher than hard core.

Yeah those numbers are probably off, since they are from vanilla 1% Naxxramas 40m, probably still only like …maybe 5% to 8 % hardcore, I feel like that is even stretching it. WoW has gone way casual, it’s even more casual than GW2.

Mirta.5029:

I’m just judging from my own friends and family. There wasn’t a single player that payed for a 30 day WoW subscription and then didn’t feel guilty for not playing WoW before his subscription ran out. It would be kind of different if subscriptions would take a day away every time you play a day, but the ones that we have right now run out no matter you play or not, so most people try to get their money’s worth.

I miss this this. Some games used to have a hourly subscription. Would take out time to the minute how long you played. It was a steal if you played very little. But if you played more then 30 hrs in a 2 weeks you’d be losing money so you’d opt for the monthly sub.

But honestly I prefer the GW2 system because I can control what I pay. Sometimes I want to play but I don’t have the money to spend on a sub or in this case gems (I have a ton of medical bills, and student loans to boot). So being able to enjoy the game without worrying about wasting money unless I have it to waste is always a good thing, for me.

On topic: I don’t think that it is ruining the game. Guild Wars has always been a “different” MMO, with a following no less. While GW2 strayed from the original they still have the same mindset in some areas.

Sure they added Ascended gear and you have the Legendary grind (but this is something that is intended to take a long period of time, something a ‘casual’ could easily do). But overall it is still a quite friendly game to anyone that wants to play it.

If you play hours upon hours it is definitely noticeable that there is less to do then you may be used to.

As far as “Hardcore” vs. “Casual” I can say that most people have probably argued that enough. lol

Peetee.9406:

Tired of hearing these casual vs hardcore debates.

Casuals make up a majority of the player base, buy the fluff on the gem store, and pay for the bulk of new updates.

Hardcores push the content, force developers to make and develope new content, and are more proactive in identifying game issues.

A successful game needs both sets of players.

+100000000000000000000000

Eridani.8317:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Skinner Box nonsense …

Wish people would stop throwing that term around as if it automatically validates their argument.

By definition a Skinner Box is a behavioral conditioning device intended to inspire compulsive behavior by providing arbitrary rewards for repeating simple tasks. However a primary aspect of the Skinner Box is that it doesn’t reward every attempt; rather it rewards sporadically, thus making the arbitrary reward feel more significant, and reinforcing the compulsion to repeat the desired behavior.

In progression based MMO endgame the player is encouraged (or rather required) to repeat the same content dozens, perhaps hundreds of times in an effort to obtain an uncertain reward (gear you can use) based on a random number generator system called a “loot table” (sporadic reward distribution). By repeating this cycle time and again, players are conditioned to find enjoyment not in the content itself, but in the sense of progress and artificial reward of obtaining their new equipment, and thus continue to repeat the content long after all enjoyment has been drained from it.

I’m sorry you’re in denial; but gear progression is the very definition of a Skinner Box. It’s basically text book.

Arkham Creed.7358:

Eridani.8317:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Skinner Box nonsense …

Wish people would stop throwing that term around as if it automatically validates their argument.

However a primary aspect of the Skinner Box is that it doesn’t reward every attempt; rather it rewards sporadically, thus making the arbitrary reward feel more significant, and reinforcing the compulsion to repeat the desired behavior.

And yet these boxes DO reward SOMETHING every single time. Skinner box does NOT reward SOMETHING EVERY single time. The arbitrary reward in that experiment was still a reward, it was NO reward VS varying rewards as a reward/no reward scenario.

An experiment on behavior based on varying amounts of reward, rather than reward to no reward, could vary well prove entirely different results. Probably based in psychology and the human need to repeat actions, addictions, obsessive compulsive types with varying degrees, and would have such huge biases it might not be a tangible experiment at all. The most accurate science removes all outside variables and since we have no way of knowing 100% that someones mind is free of OCD, addictive behavior, or other psychological/mental problems, no true conclusion can be drawn from what the outcome of RNG style boxes is on an indeterminate amount of test subjects.

A “textbook” skinner box would be a black lion chest that gave items only sometimes, gave only some reward sometimes and no reward AT ALL at other times. This device/idea doesn’t exist in the current boxes of any type in game. Next people will be calling event chests skinner boxes.

People can call it gambling, they are wrong. People can call it “textbook” skinner box, they are also wrong. If a bird is a bird call it a bird, if an egg is an egg call it an egg. Don’t call the egg a bird simply because it has a bird inside of it.

Geotherma.2395:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Eridani.8317:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Skinner Box nonsense …

Wish people would stop throwing that term around as if it automatically validates their argument.

However a primary aspect of the Skinner Box is that it doesn’t reward every attempt; rather it rewards sporadically, thus making the arbitrary reward feel more significant, and reinforcing the compulsion to repeat the desired behavior.

And yet these boxes DO reward SOMETHING every single time. Skinner box does NOT reward SOMETHING EVERY single time. The arbitrary reward in that experiment was still a reward, it was NO reward VS varying rewards as a reward/no reward scenario.

Now we’re getting into personal definitions here. Let’s back up just a bit and define reward.

Now obvisouly a reward is a bonus for doing something. However within this context what we’re really talking about is a “desired reward.” For example if you’re a thief in Guild Wars 2 then you can’t use rifles, so a rifle while technically being a viable reward for content, and does technically have some value, it isn’t something most thief players want. They would rather have a dagger or shortbow. As such, within the context, a dagger or shortbow would be a reward, and a rifle would be what we MMO players like to call “vender trash.”

It is the same thing as winning a free ticket on a scratch off lottery ticket; yes you technically won something, but it isn’t what you wanted nor useful, it has no personal value to you, and so you’re not likely to be happy about it. However what it does is make you keep playing, in hopes of getting the right reward. This is the primary way MMO gear progression tries to pretend that it isn’t a Skinner Box; it does technically give you something nearly every time. However in the mind of the player, in their personal contextualization of the scenario, they were not rewarded and as such the artificial significance of the arbitrary reward they want is maintained. Or in some cases amplified.

Peetee.9406:

Tired of hearing these casual vs hardcore debates.

Casuals make up a majority of the player base, buy the fluff on the gem store, and pay for the bulk of new updates.

Hardcores push the content, force developers to make and develope new content, and are more proactive in identifying game issues.

A successful game needs both sets of players.

This has been going on in every MMO since MMOs released. Not a single one is unique in being able to avoid the debate.

It’s basically just a bunch of little kids all demanding that their group is superior and thus deserves the most attention. Because sharing is overrated, right?

Arkham Creed.7358:

Geotherma.2395:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Eridani.8317:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Skinner Box nonsense …

Wish people would stop throwing that term around as if it automatically validates their argument.

However a primary aspect of the Skinner Box is that it doesn’t reward every attempt; rather it rewards sporadically, thus making the arbitrary reward feel more significant, and reinforcing the compulsion to repeat the desired behavior.

And yet these boxes DO reward SOMETHING every single time. Skinner box does NOT reward SOMETHING EVERY single time. The arbitrary reward in that experiment was still a reward, it was NO reward VS varying rewards as a reward/no reward scenario.

Now we’re getting into personal definitions here. Let’s back up just a bit and define reward.

Now obvisouly a reward is a bonus for doing something. However within this context what we’re really talking about is a “desired reward.” For example if you’re a thief in Guild Wars 2 then you can’t use rifles, so a rifle while technically being a viable reward for content, and does technically have some value, it isn’t something most thief players want. They would rather have a dagger or shortbow. As such, within the context, a dagger or shortbow would be a reward, and a rifle would be what we MMO players like to call “vender trash.”

It is the same thing as winning a free ticket on a scratch off lottery ticket; yes you technically won something, but it isn’t what you wanted nor useful, it has no personal value to you, and so you’re not likely to be happy about it. However what it does is make you keep playing, in hopes of getting the right reward. This is the primary way MMO gear progression tries to pretend that it isn’t a Skinner Box; it does technically give you something nearly every time. However in the mind of the player, in their personal contextualization of the scenario, they were not rewarded and as such the artificial significance of the arbitrary reward they want is maintained. Or in some cases amplified.

Edited-

The desired reward IS a personal want/desire, one chosen among a plethora of options. You still get a reward each time you open the box, you do not get closer to that reward over time, you do not have an end goal. Each time you click you activate the pseudo random or random number generation. Each time you do say your odds are the same as the last, they are not considerably better by buying 10 or 100. You do gain a better chance at “hitting” a win because your amount is simply higher, but you do not get a guarantee. One could simply theoretically win the lottery by buying every ticket, some can even be won using mathematical concepts or loopholes in the system itself. RNG is a fair and unfair thing, which in the end makes it unbiased. I still say your textbook definition is not represented here in the game, edited my post to clarify that better.

You mentioned I was making it my personal definition, when in fact changing the definition to your opinion of how it is interpreted would be the same exact thing. I’ve studied the skinner box theory, and this is close but not word for word nor is it the same experiment that people seem to think it is. It is one of the most commonly mistaken theory’s out there, people have a serious issue with creating their own version of what it means. Which I suppose is our psychological and analytic way of examining someone elses work. But either way is still inaccurate,

the uprising.6317:

Atm GW2 is not rewarding in terms of time put into the game

Nor should any game.

As you stated they have modeled this game for the casual player. These players range in age from 25 to 60.

Who has the most disposal income? people 30 to 55.

If you have more disposal income are you more willing to spend it on a video game? I know I am and I’m 53.

This is not a game for hardcore players. You are in the minority which is ever shrinking. Thank goodness.

EDIT: the bottom line to your issue is “the bottom line”

Who would you want playing your game if you made one?

The guy the spent 19 hours a day on the game and spent $20 for gems once a month or the guy that plays the game for 3 hours a day and spends $100 dollars for gems a month.

Anet has voted for the latter. Good for them

the uprising.6317:

GW2 is not the CoD or LoL of MMO’s it was trying to be.

Show me the source for this please. I don’t ever recall Anet ever comparing themselves to any of these games you mentioned.

Geotherma.2395:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Geotherma.2395:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Eridani.8317:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Skinner Box nonsense …

Wish people would stop throwing that term around as if it automatically validates their argument.

However a primary aspect of the Skinner Box is that it doesn’t reward every attempt; rather it rewards sporadically, thus making the arbitrary reward feel more significant, and reinforcing the compulsion to repeat the desired behavior.

And yet these boxes DO reward SOMETHING every single time. Skinner box does NOT reward SOMETHING EVERY single time. The arbitrary reward in that experiment was still a reward, it was NO reward VS varying rewards as a reward/no reward scenario.

Now we’re getting into personal definitions here. Let’s back up just a bit and define reward.

Now obvisouly a reward is a bonus for doing something. However within this context what we’re really talking about is a “desired reward.” For example if you’re a thief in Guild Wars 2 then you can’t use rifles, so a rifle while technically being a viable reward for content, and does technically have some value, it isn’t something most thief players want. They would rather have a dagger or shortbow. As such, within the context, a dagger or shortbow would be a reward, and a rifle would be what we MMO players like to call “vender trash.”

It is the same thing as winning a free ticket on a scratch off lottery ticket; yes you technically won something, but it isn’t what you wanted nor useful, it has no personal value to you, and so you’re not likely to be happy about it. However what it does is make you keep playing, in hopes of getting the right reward. This is the primary way MMO gear progression tries to pretend that it isn’t a Skinner Box; it does technically give you something nearly every time. However in the mind of the player, in their personal contextualization of the scenario, they were not rewarded and as such the artificial significance of the arbitrary reward they want is maintained. Or in some cases amplified.

Edited-

The desired reward IS a personal want/desire, one chosen among a plethora of options. You still get a reward each time you open the box, you do not get closer to that reward over time, you do not have an end goal. Each time you click you activate the pseudo random or random number generation. Each time you do say your odds are the same as the last, they are not considerably better by buying 10 or 100. You do gain a better chance at “hitting” a win because your amount is simply higher, but you do not get a guarantee. One could simply theoretically win the lottery by buying every ticket, some can even be won using mathematical concepts or loopholes in the system itself. RNG is a fair and unfair thing, which in the end makes it unbiased. I still say your textbook definition is not represented here in the game, edited my post to clarify that better.

You mentioned I was making it my personal definition, when in fact changing the definition to your opinion of how it is interpreted would be the same exact thing. I’ve studied the skinner box theory, and this is close but not word for word nor is it the same experiment that people seem to think it is. It is one of the most commonly mistaken theory’s out there, people have a serious issue with creating their own version of what it means. Which I suppose is our psychological and analytic way of examining someone elses work. But either way is still inaccurate,

The odds of success and the fairness of the system are of no consequence. The basic fact remains; you are repeating the same simple task compulsively for an uncertain and arbitrary reward. I respect your opinions, but not your denial. As long as you are repeating the same tasks for some reward given after an uncertain number of attempts, and this behavior is intended to breed compulsion, it is a Skinner Box.

Arkham Creed.7358:

Geotherma.2395:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Geotherma.2395:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Eridani.8317:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Skinner Box nonsense …

Wish people would stop throwing that term around as if it automatically validates their argument.

However a primary aspect of the Skinner Box is that it doesn’t reward every attempt; rather it rewards sporadically, thus making the arbitrary reward feel more significant, and reinforcing the compulsion to repeat the desired behavior.

And yet these boxes DO reward SOMETHING every single time. Skinner box does NOT reward SOMETHING EVERY single time. The arbitrary reward in that experiment was still a reward, it was NO reward VS varying rewards as a reward/no reward scenario.

Now we’re getting into personal definitions here. Let’s back up just a bit and define reward.

Now obvisouly a reward is a bonus for doing something. However within this context what we’re really talking about is a “desired reward.” For example if you’re a thief in Guild Wars 2 then you can’t use rifles, so a rifle while technically being a viable reward for content, and does technically have some value, it isn’t something most thief players want. They would rather have a dagger or shortbow. As such, within the context, a dagger or shortbow would be a reward, and a rifle would be what we MMO players like to call “vender trash.”

It is the same thing as winning a free ticket on a scratch off lottery ticket; yes you technically won something, but it isn’t what you wanted nor useful, it has no personal value to you, and so you’re not likely to be happy about it. However what it does is make you keep playing, in hopes of getting the right reward. This is the primary way MMO gear progression tries to pretend that it isn’t a Skinner Box; it does technically give you something nearly every time. However in the mind of the player, in their personal contextualization of the scenario, they were not rewarded and as such the artificial significance of the arbitrary reward they want is maintained. Or in some cases amplified.

Edited-

The desired reward IS a personal want/desire, one chosen among a plethora of options. You still get a reward each time you open the box, you do not get closer to that reward over time, you do not have an end goal. Each time you click you activate the pseudo random or random number generation. Each time you do say your odds are the same as the last, they are not considerably better by buying 10 or 100. You do gain a better chance at “hitting” a win because your amount is simply higher, but you do not get a guarantee. One could simply theoretically win the lottery by buying every ticket, some can even be won using mathematical concepts or loopholes in the system itself. RNG is a fair and unfair thing, which in the end makes it unbiased. I still say your textbook definition is not represented here in the game, edited my post to clarify that better.

You mentioned I was making it my personal definition, when in fact changing the definition to your opinion of how it is interpreted would be the same exact thing. I’ve studied the skinner box theory, and this is close but not word for word nor is it the same experiment that people seem to think it is. It is one of the most commonly mistaken theory’s out there, people have a serious issue with creating their own version of what it means. Which I suppose is our psychological and analytic way of examining someone elses work. But either way is still inaccurate,

The odds of success and the fairness of the system are of no consequence. The basic fact remains; you are repeating the same simple task compulsively for an uncertain and arbitrary reward. I respect your opinions, but not your denial. As long as you are repeating the same tasks for some reward given after an uncertain number of attempts, and this behavior is intended to breed compulsion, it is a Skinner Box.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_psychology
I recommend some research, I won’t argue someones denial who calls something a thing it is not. It is pointless to further argue when it is clear what the truth is. Specifications are set, they are not met in this condition, they are not met in this environment. Building on to a theory and advancing it does NOT EQUAL the exact theory itself. But carry on, it’s your game. It is only a skinner box by your own volition.

Arkham Creed.7358:

Geotherma.2395:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Eridani.8317:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Skinner Box nonsense …

Wish people would stop throwing that term around as if it automatically validates their argument.

However a primary aspect of the Skinner Box is that it doesn’t reward every attempt; rather it rewards sporadically, thus making the arbitrary reward feel more significant, and reinforcing the compulsion to repeat the desired behavior.

And yet these boxes DO reward SOMETHING every single time. Skinner box does NOT reward SOMETHING EVERY single time. The arbitrary reward in that experiment was still a reward, it was NO reward VS varying rewards as a reward/no reward scenario.

Now we’re getting into personal definitions here. Let’s back up just a bit and define reward.

Now obvisouly a reward is a bonus for doing something. However within this context what we’re really talking about is a “desired reward.” For example if you’re a thief in Guild Wars 2 then you can’t use rifles, so a rifle while technically being a viable reward for content, and does technically have some value, it isn’t something most thief players want. They would rather have a dagger or shortbow. As such, within the context, a dagger or shortbow would be a reward, and a rifle would be what we MMO players like to call “vender trash.”

It is the same thing as winning a free ticket on a scratch off lottery ticket; yes you technically won something, but it isn’t what you wanted nor useful, it has no personal value to you, and so you’re not likely to be happy about it. However what it does is make you keep playing, in hopes of getting the right reward. This is the primary way MMO gear progression tries to pretend that it isn’t a Skinner Box; it does technically give you something nearly every time. However in the mind of the player, in their personal contextualization of the scenario, they were not rewarded and as such the artificial significance of the arbitrary reward they want is maintained. Or in some cases amplified.

A Skinner box tests the reactions of a single rat. Now, if a psychologist were to design a box in which multiple rats needed to press levers at the same time, then rewarded 1-2 of them (but not the rest) each time, then the comparison would be closer to spot on. Now, getting the rats to work together might be problematic, though that’s happened in quite a few raids, also.

I’d like to correct the misakenly used term of “carebear”.

Weather you’re hardcore or casual if you’re out doing open pve, dungeons, slaying dragons, or even sitting in a battleground of some kind grinding out your pvp gear you’re a carebear. Non carebears are those who specifically look for player versus player content in an open world unfair environment; those guys who wish for free for all kill anyone pvp and want to loot your corpses.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Geotherma.2395:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Eridani.8317:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Skinner Box nonsense …

Wish people would stop throwing that term around as if it automatically validates their argument.

However a primary aspect of the Skinner Box is that it doesn’t reward every attempt; rather it rewards sporadically, thus making the arbitrary reward feel more significant, and reinforcing the compulsion to repeat the desired behavior.

And yet these boxes DO reward SOMETHING every single time. Skinner box does NOT reward SOMETHING EVERY single time. The arbitrary reward in that experiment was still a reward, it was NO reward VS varying rewards as a reward/no reward scenario.

Now we’re getting into personal definitions here. Let’s back up just a bit and define reward.

Now obvisouly a reward is a bonus for doing something. However within this context what we’re really talking about is a “desired reward.” For example if you’re a thief in Guild Wars 2 then you can’t use rifles, so a rifle while technically being a viable reward for content, and does technically have some value, it isn’t something most thief players want. They would rather have a dagger or shortbow. As such, within the context, a dagger or shortbow would be a reward, and a rifle would be what we MMO players like to call “vender trash.”

It is the same thing as winning a free ticket on a scratch off lottery ticket; yes you technically won something, but it isn’t what you wanted nor useful, it has no personal value to you, and so you’re not likely to be happy about it. However what it does is make you keep playing, in hopes of getting the right reward. This is the primary way MMO gear progression tries to pretend that it isn’t a Skinner Box; it does technically give you something nearly every time. However in the mind of the player, in their personal contextualization of the scenario, they were not rewarded and as such the artificial significance of the arbitrary reward they want is maintained. Or in some cases amplified.

A Skinner box tests the reactions of a single rat. Now, if a psychologist were to design a box in which multiple rats needed to press levers at the same time, then rewarded 1-2 of them (but not the rest) each time, then the comparison would be closer to spot on. Now, getting the rats to work together might be problematic, though that’s happened in quite a few raids, also.

Then I suppose you could call MMO gear progression a form of “communal Skinner Box” if you like. That said; if I may interject some pure opinion, I don’t call raiding “working together.” That is because most of the players don’t actually interact, and they don’t have to share tasks or responsibility. This is more getting into the Holy Trinity than raiding of course, but I don’t define a game wherein everyone focuses on their own tasks as individuals cooperative. Instead I’d say that is more like juggling; a solo task, but being told you failed because the guy on the other side of the room dropped one of his balls. (yes I know there is a type of juggling shared between multiple people, but my point stands. In Holy Trinity raids you don’t share tasks and responsibility, you don’t pass the balls back and forth, you focus on your own stack and hope the guy next to you doesn’t screw up.)

Arkham Creed.7358:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Geotherma.2395:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Eridani.8317:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Skinner Box nonsense …

Wish people would stop throwing that term around as if it automatically validates their argument.

However a primary aspect of the Skinner Box is that it doesn’t reward every attempt; rather it rewards sporadically, thus making the arbitrary reward feel more significant, and reinforcing the compulsion to repeat the desired behavior.

And yet these boxes DO reward SOMETHING every single time. Skinner box does NOT reward SOMETHING EVERY single time. The arbitrary reward in that experiment was still a reward, it was NO reward VS varying rewards as a reward/no reward scenario.

Now we’re getting into personal definitions here. Let’s back up just a bit and define reward.

Now obvisouly a reward is a bonus for doing something. However within this context what we’re really talking about is a “desired reward.” For example if you’re a thief in Guild Wars 2 then you can’t use rifles, so a rifle while technically being a viable reward for content, and does technically have some value, it isn’t something most thief players want. They would rather have a dagger or shortbow. As such, within the context, a dagger or shortbow would be a reward, and a rifle would be what we MMO players like to call “vender trash.”

It is the same thing as winning a free ticket on a scratch off lottery ticket; yes you technically won something, but it isn’t what you wanted nor useful, it has no personal value to you, and so you’re not likely to be happy about it. However what it does is make you keep playing, in hopes of getting the right reward. This is the primary way MMO gear progression tries to pretend that it isn’t a Skinner Box; it does technically give you something nearly every time. However in the mind of the player, in their personal contextualization of the scenario, they were not rewarded and as such the artificial significance of the arbitrary reward they want is maintained. Or in some cases amplified.

A Skinner box tests the reactions of a single rat. Now, if a psychologist were to design a box in which multiple rats needed to press levers at the same time, then rewarded 1-2 of them (but not the rest) each time, then the comparison would be closer to spot on. Now, getting the rats to work together might be problematic, though that’s happened in quite a few raids, also.

Then I suppose you could call MMO gear progression a form of “communal Skinner Box” if you like. That said; if I may interject some pure opinion, I don’t call raiding “working together.” That is because most of the players don’t actually interact, and they don’t have to share tasks or responsibility. This is more getting into the Holy Trinity than raiding of course, but I don’t define a game wherein everyone focuses on their own tasks as individuals cooperative. Instead I’d say that is more like juggling; a solo task, but being told you failed because the guy on the other side of the room dropped one of his balls. (yes I know there is a type of juggling shared between multiple people, but my point stands. In Holy Trinity raids you don’t share tasks and responsibility, you don’t pass the balls back and forth, you focus on your own stack and hope the guy next to you doesn’t screw up.)

Just about every analogy subjected to minute scrutiny is lacking something. Maybe if one rat had to stand in fire to press his lever, another had to press a lever to spray water on the first one, and the rest had to press their levers over and over again? Now, I know that rats are too smart to fall for that.

OK, /fail analogies off

If you like a game play it, if you don’t find one you do and play it.
Why is that so hard for some people to understand?

If you have issues with the game contact the development staff or make suggestions in the correct forums.

Hardcore and casual are subjective terms used to describe dedication. That’s it, that’s all.

I don’t even like to go as far as saying ‘x amount of hours as a minimum’ since not everyone has the same amount of free time. A teenager off on summer vacation will certainly have way more time than a single parent who has to both work a full time job monday to friday as well as a part time job on the weekend.

Given a person’s free time, I would say that anyone who spends 75% or more of it on the game is dedicated and therefore, “hardcore”.

So who’s ruining this game? Is it the casuals? Is it the hardcore? well, it’s neither one actually.

-Corporate greed

-Non gamers in charge

-Non gamer software developers out of school and looking for work get hired on by a game development company.

-Game developing company delivering a game to one demographic but was designed for people of a different demographic (Aion’s online gambling and massive grind to cater to a Korean type demographic, delivered to a NA and EU demographic).

The list can go on but it’s unlikely that casual or hardcore would be on it. If so, they would definitely be at the bottom.

so which one is it?

TheBlackLeech.9360:

so which one is it?

Heh, get used to it. Go to any MMO of your choosing with an active forum and look at the topic discussions for the past 10 days. You’ll find 1 thread of each on there, guaranteed.

This topic is older than graphical MMOs.

No, seriously, it really is.

Tolmos.8395:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

so which one is it?

Heh, get used to it. Go to any MMO of your choosing with an active forum and look at the topic discussions for the past 10 days. You’ll find 1 thread of each on there, guaranteed.

This topic is older than graphical MMOs.

No, seriously, it really is.

Sadly this is very true.

Tolmos.8395:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

so which one is it?

Heh, get used to it. Go to any MMO of your choosing with an active forum and look at the topic discussions for the past 10 days. You’ll find 1 thread of each on there, guaranteed.

This topic is older than graphical MMOs.

No, seriously, it really is.

Exactly. Neither elitist nor casuals ruin a game, and most of us know. Now people that troll the forums incessantly and attack others like some of the people in this thread, ahem, are more harmful to the game than any set of player type

the uprising.6317:

…And even LoL is ruined quite a bit from the catering to casuals….

This is how you know someone’s only fishing for Reactions… when they invoke a game that was intended all along to be the Angry Birds of MOBAs. If he was serious he’d be invoking (no pun intended) HON or DOTA.

Upon doing so, all credibility is lost and not even parallels to GW1 can be invoked.
LOL is also only a “competitive E-sport” in the same way that Soccer is… mass following b/c everyone can understand it and most kids in the world were able to play by exactly the same “meta” that the “Pros” play by. IE: the complete OPPOSITE reality from what the OP’s main argument attempts to assert towards “Skill” and catering.

Just let the casuals have their game. Most of the people who actually want a challenge and to be rewarded for their time and effort accordingly have already left. This game isn’t hurting anything by existing for casuals, I’m sure most future developers have seen the outcome and will learn a lot from this game. If all they want to do is have “fun” in their glorified 3D chat room with micro-transactions to pimp out their avatar (which is essentially what this game is ) then let em’. Hopefully it will steer them clear of games coming out in the future so we won’t have to deal with dumbed down gameplay and handouts due to their “I want I want I want but I don’t want to play that much” whining.

Energumenus.5319:

Just let the casuals have their game. Most of the people who actually want a challenge and to be rewarded for their time and effort accordingly have already left. This game isn’t hurting anything by existing for casuals, I’m sure most future developers have seen the outcome and will learn a lot from this game. If all they want to do is have “fun” in their glorified 3D chat room with micro-transactions to pimp out their avatar (which is essentially what this game is ) then let em’. Hopefully it will steer them clear of games coming out in the future so we won’t have to deal with dumbed down gameplay and handouts due to their “I want I want I want but I don’t want to play that much” whining.

Yeh this is what I’ve concluded, but its just weird, new mmo’s coming out are also looking to bring in the casuals yet have tons of options for hardcore gamers, it doesn’t have to be an “either, or” type of thing.

Peetee.9406:

Tired of hearing these casual vs hardcore debates.

Casuals make up a majority of the player base, buy the fluff on the gem store, and pay for the bulk of new updates.

Hardcores push the content, force developers to make and develope new content, and are more proactive in identifying game issues.

A successful game needs both sets of players.

That is true, but ANet don’t give a crap about hardcore that’s why the whole debate thing going on right now. GW2 is so far 100% casual with no challenging content.

Mathias.9657:

Peetee.9406:

Tired of hearing these casual vs hardcore debates.

Casuals make up a majority of the player base, buy the fluff on the gem store, and pay for the bulk of new updates.

Hardcores push the content, force developers to make and develope new content, and are more proactive in identifying game issues.

A successful game needs both sets of players.

That is true, but ANet don’t give a crap about hardcore that’s why the whole debate thing going on right now. GW2 is so far 100% casual with no challenging content.

Fractals and ascended gear don’t exist I guess. And any dungeon that isn’t cof p1. Your right, 100% casual, no challenging things at all.

I myself (Opinion here) have always considered the terms “hardcore” and “casual” to be based on the amount of time someone plays the game. Being hardcore means you all about the game, play it every possible minute you can. Being casual means you play when you have time but don’t just make time for the game.

I used to DAoC all the time. When I was getting off of work I was just thinking about getting into it and playing. I was “hardcore” about playing the game. I loved it. As I got older and I started having more responsibilities, I turned into a more casual player. That was when I found GW1, and it suited exactly what I was looking for. In turn, GW2 does the same thing for me. Now my play style hasn’t changed much from when I was “hardcore”, I still love being in dungeons and going for the most difficult challenge I can find and figuring out how to beat it, but it just takes a little longer to do now.

I think this game trys to cater to both parties, but leans more to the casual gamer. The problem that I see is the more “hardcore” players are burning through content to fast. Reason for this could be:

1. The content is really easy (most of it is)
2. There isn’t a lot of content at once
3. The mechanics of the content don’t really make people want to do it over and over again.

For me (opinion), I really like the content and have been having a blast doing it, yes I get it done fast but I have fun doing it. I love the new stories and trying to figure out where they are going.

As for comments like @Energumenus, I love challenges, and I love being rewarded. But guess what, I feel rewarded when I play and accomplish something. I remember the first time the group I was in cleared Lupi, that was reward in itself. I still get a feeling of accomplishment when I beat lupi, because the people I play with and the classes aren’t optimized for doing runs, so we have to really play to accomplish something and that is rewarding in itself. But I will make sure to go to other MMO’s when they come out so the “casual” player like myself can make sure to go on the forum and post stupid stuff like gets posted on here.

Geotherma.2395:

Mathias.9657:

Peetee.9406:

Tired of hearing these casual vs hardcore debates.

Casuals make up a majority of the player base, buy the fluff on the gem store, and pay for the bulk of new updates.

Hardcores push the content, force developers to make and develope new content, and are more proactive in identifying game issues.

A successful game needs both sets of players.

That is true, but ANet don’t give a crap about hardcore that’s why the whole debate thing going on right now. GW2 is so far 100% casual with no challenging content.

Fractals and ascended gear don’t exist I guess. And any dungeon that isn’t cof p1. Your right, 100% casual, no challenging things at all.

Trust me those are nothing to a hardcore player. All of GW2 pve has been done to death at this point, because I am 1 of them. Fractals are simply gated.. I can’t even progress anymore until they add more agony resist. That isn’t HC.

HC would be pve-progression (btw stat grind is NOT HC either.) with set amount of bosses that require very coordinated groups, stuff that we can’t just complete in 1 day but in weeks, giving ANet time to design the next set of content.

So far we’ve got nothing but tiny updates that can be done in 1-2 hours at most. Fractals is old as hell at this point. As an example just look at heroic 25man raids in WoW but remove the gear.

Tamaki Revolution.3548:

Please stop saying Hardcore Gamers. Making me puke a bit in my mouth. Also not a fan of “White Knight” :P

Well if people stop making these blame game threads stuff like this won’t happen.

I’m cranky today, sorry. There’s just so many of these kitten threads going around.

Arkham Creed.7358:

Uprising, I think I know what you did. You saw “MMO” and got confused. You forgot that MMO is nothing. It isn’t a thing. It isn’t a genre. It isn’t even a part of a genre. MMO means “massively multi-player online.” It is a multi-player system, nothing more. No different from or more significant than “co-op” or “one-to-four players” or “system link.” It is often used as shorthand for MMORPG, but that in itself is flawed. Guild Wars 2 simply isn’t the same kind of game as games like World of Warcraft, or Rift, or Star Wars The Old Republic. It isn’t the same genre.

To paraphrase the good people at Extra Credits, mechanics have nothing to do with genre. A genre is the core engagement of the game; the reason you play. Both Call of Duty and Mass Effect are shooters, both have guns you aim, both have reload mechanics, both have leveling and progression, but you don’t play CoD for the same reason you play Mass Effect. The core engagement of the two games is completely different. It is the same thing here. The core engagement of whatever MMO you come from, obviously, was progression. But progression is not the core engagement of Guild Wars 2; it is an afterthought. Or at best a tutorial mechanic. You progress to learn how to play, you don’t play to learn how to progress.

You’re playing the wrong genre. You are looking for engagement that doesn’t exist. You bought Mass Effect when you wanted Call of Duty. Next time don’t just assume that every MMO is the same. As I said MMO isn’t even a thing. It isn’t even a mechanic. It isn’t even a style. It’s simply how many people can play at once. Four people can play Mortal Kombat 9 at once, but that doesn’t somehow make it something other than a fighting game, just like how only one person can play Skyrim, but it isn’t any less of a RPG.

Wow I think you really hit the nail on the head. I think I need to save your post so that I may use it later down the line.

Hjorje.9453:

I myself (Opinion here) have always considered the terms “hardcore” and “casual” to be based on the amount of time someone plays the game. Being hardcore means you all about the game, play it every possible minute you can. Being casual means you play when you have time but don’t just make time for the game.

I used to DAoC all the time. When I was getting off of work I was just thinking about getting into it and playing. I was “hardcore” about playing the game. I loved it. As I got older and I started having more responsibilities, I turned into a more casual player. That was when I found GW1, and it suited exactly what I was looking for. In turn, GW2 does the same thing for me. Now my play style hasn’t changed much from when I was “hardcore”, I still love being in dungeons and going for the most difficult challenge I can find and figuring out how to beat it, but it just takes a little longer to do now.

I think this game trys to cater to both parties, but leans more to the casual gamer. The problem that I see is the more “hardcore” players are burning through content to fast. Reason for this could be:

1. The content is really easy (most of it is)
2. There isn’t a lot of content at once
3. The mechanics of the content don’t really make people want to do it over and over again.

For me (opinion), I really like the content and have been having a blast doing it, yes I get it done fast but I have fun doing it. I love the new stories and trying to figure out where they are going.

As for comments like @Energumenus, I love challenges, and I love being rewarded. But guess what, I feel rewarded when I play and accomplish something. I remember the first time the group I was in cleared Lupi, that was reward in itself. I still get a feeling of accomplishment when I beat lupi, because the people I play with and the classes aren’t optimized for doing runs, so we have to really play to accomplish something and that is rewarding in itself. But I will make sure to go to other MMO’s when they come out so the “casual” player like myself can make sure to go on the forum and post stupid stuff like gets posted on here.

I always thought Hardcore was completing everything on the first try , no such thing as redo and Deleting your account and starting over in a new account if you should happen to die in game.