Guild Wars 2

Pandaman.4758:

If Charr evolved from a species that doesn’t mate for life or for pleasure, then the concept of homosexual – or even heterosexual – relationships would be alien to them.

The thing is, all higher animals do have sex for pleasure. In fact, that’s the primary (and basically the only) reason non-human mammals pursue it, being incapable of following some purely rational ideological goal of expanding their population. A mammalian species whose members receive no immediate personal reward for having sex would most likely die out, since the animals composing it would not spend time and energy to commit an entirely unrewarding act, possibly endangering themselves in the process (many animals are killed while performing mating rituals).

I’m all for designing species with non-human physiology and thought processes, but the charr already have way too many similarities to humans and other higher mammals to possess intrinsically alien qualities. And sexual reproduction which somehow occurs without sex drive is intrinsically alien.

Hashar.6082:

Pandaman.4758:

If Charr evolved from a species that doesn’t mate for life or for pleasure, then the concept of homosexual – or even heterosexual – relationships would be alien to them.

The thing is, all higher animals do have sex for pleasure. In fact, that’s the primary (and basically the only) reason non-human mammals pursue it, being incapable of following some purely rational ideological goal of expanding their population. A mammalian species whose members receive no immediate personal reward for having sex would most likely die out, since the animals composing it would not spend time and energy to commit an entirely unrewarding act, possibly endangering themselves in the process (many animals are killed while performing mating rituals).

I’m all for designing species with non-human physiology and thought processes, but the charr already have way too many similarities to humans and other higher mammals to possess intrinsically alien qualities. And sexual reproduction which somehow occurs without sex drive is intrinsically alien.

Well, not mating for the sake of (probably an emphasis I should have put in before) pleasure doesn’t mean they don’t derive pleasure from the act of mating. Going back to the food analogy, it’s like eating and hunger, obviously we derive satisfaction from eating while hungry, but nobody really enjoys eating when they’re full – similarly if a species only has a libido when the female of the species begins to exhibit signs of fertility, then they’re probably not going to mate on off seasons.

So I’m not saying a species can reproduce without a sex drive, but that a culture of a species with a seasonal sex drive would naturally be very different from a culture of a species that’s ready to rumble year-round; particularly in how it defines long-term relationships and what motivates the creation of these relationships.

Hashar.6082:

Pandaman.4758:

Well, not mating for the sake of (probably an emphasis I should have put in before) pleasure doesn’t mean they don’t derive pleasure from the act of mating. Going back to the food analogy, it’s like eating and hunger, obviously we derive satisfaction from eating while hungry, but nobody really enjoys eating when they’re full – similarly if a species only has a libido when the female of the species begins to exhibit signs of fertility, then they’re probably not going to mate on off seasons.

So I’m not saying a species can reproduce without a sex drive, but that a culture of a species with a seasonal sex drive would naturally be very different from a culture of a species that’s ready to rumble year-round; particularly in how it defines long-term relationships and what motivates the creation of these relationships.

Ah, I see. That would be more alien, indeed, but I’m actually not sure how well it would translate to a species with humanlike level of intelligence. Most (if not all?) animals with seasonal mating patterns would try to mate with members of the same sex, or even a different species, if the individual in question displays the signs they’re looking for in a fertile mate. So it’s an incredibly crude mechanism, and I don’t see it coexisting with sufficiently advanced mind without significant alterations.

If the species still has functioning vomeronasal receptor, or in Charr it might be a different mechanism like subconscious audio cues (since they evolved to have four ears), then their mating behavior shouldn’t be that indiscriminate or uncontrollable; I think it’s possible for a species to have seasonal mating behavior and still develop sentience and a culture like the Charr have without having to alter much.

That aside, even if a species did have such indiscriminate mating behavior, it’s still perfectly viable for intelligence to coexist with it because intelligence is shaped by biology – it would be an incredibly lecherous intelligence that follows a logic that revolves around getting into everyone’s pants, but intelligent nonetheless. It just wouldn’t be Charr and is more suited to exist in the same universe as Captain Kirk.

Palador.2170:

AsurasRCute.4136:

The main differences between these two examples (GW2 and Star Trek) are: reproductive viability (often the core of the morals of the day regarding sexual taboos); and ‘otherness’.

Humans, Vulcans, Klingons, Romulans and Cardassians (etc) can all successfully breed with each other, and it’s established in lore that we’re all made of pretty much the same stuff, with only minor differences.

That wouldn’t be the case for most of the species in GW2 I imagine?

And since the ‘otherness’ isn’t that ‘other’ in ST, the different races can often look more exotic and attractive to each other (like many feel about Elves). Attractive rather than repulsive (eg Human and Charr, or Human and Asura… probably less so Human and Sylvari given the more superficial similarities, despite the greater biological differences).

Now, the likes of yourself may have overcome these parts of yourself (assuming for the sake of argument that this is a good thing), but it’s important to give a thought to why others may not be able to do so quite so easily: You’re dealing with some pretty deep and hardwired stuff here.

As for the reproductive viability, they normally can’t, that’s correct. But some of those races in Star Trek can’t either without help, and I’m sure that if a bunch of asura bent their minds to it, they’d find a way to make human/charr work.

But let’s leave humans out of it for a minute, and look at charr and norn instead. Most people have no problem with seeing norn as attractive, there’s even a NPC female voice line where she comments on how attractive she found a norn man. There are stories where humans claim to have norn blood in their family trees. And yet, norn and charr are pretty similar for the purpose of this discussion. Both evolved on Tyria, both bigger than humans, both just as alien to humans (biologically speaking). And with their culture and their gift for shape shifting, one could even say that norn can be more beastial than charr are.

The only real difference is that, most of the time, norn look more human. That isn’t the right standard to judge this by, surely.

[My bold.]

There are two main things going on here:-

1 The ‘Ewww’ factor of inter-species sexual relations;

2 The semantic objection to the word ‘bestiality’.

For #1, we’re back to reproductive viability (and sense of ‘otherness’) as the main things that are responsible for how it would be generally (i.e. by >> 50% of people) viewed; since even yourself couldn’t help but refer to them, even when you said to leave humans out of it.

Not wanting to get into whether the ‘Ewww’ factor would be right or wrong ethically, but just pointing out that the ‘Ewww’ side’s response is fully understandable, and should be empathised with, rather than denounced out of hand.

I would rather not see inter-species sexual relationships in the game for a couple of reasons:-

i One of the things that anti-homosexual folks say is that if homosexuality is normalised then it’s a slippery slope to bestiality being normalised – if the game did, ‘in fact’, follow that trajectory then they can point at the game and say, “See! We were right!” Let’s not give them any more ammo.

ii If Human-Charr then why not Human-Asura? One of the best things about GW2 is being able to play the super-cute (but kind of humanoid) species innocently, without all that ‘Creepy, pedo’ garbage following those players around. The ‘otherness’, and absolutely no sexual relations between Humans and Asura, are important to preserve here, for this reason.

For #2, been a while since I studied biology but isn’t the main difference between ‘breed’ (or ‘race’ when talking about humans/sapients politely) and ‘species’ reproductive viability (yes and no respectively)?

So Human-Norn, especially in view of their visual similarity, is totally fine and not inter-species, at least in this respect. Every other permutation is inter-species. Semantically, would that be ‘bestiality’? Since the word derives from the Latin for ‘beast’ (a non-sapient animal), then I’d agree that it is the factually incorrect word to use, and is an insult to those sapient beings on the receiving end.

So… after all that, I agree with you about that.

I doubt that Charr would want to commit beastiality…. with a human. No fine, sexy tail swishing. Tiny, flat teeth (yuck). Mostly hairless, all that disgusting skin showing. Plus they smell like dinner more than good ole Charr pheromones.

No, no beastiality with humans for the Charr.

I think at this point this thread should probably be moved to the Lore section.

Ape Ghosting.7396:

how come there is no down vote feature? Not being anti gay but you need to find another forum to express your sexual things, this is a game and no one needs to know what your sexual preference is. Sexual feelings do not belong in games. Seek help.

Okay, but you know you can just ignore post like this. If the thread is still there it’s because it’s allowed. Don’t like it? Ignore it. Simple as that.

Ape Ghosting.7396:

Sexual feelings do not belong in games.

But the game is already full of them. Many NPCs talking about their wives/husbands. Stories about how they lost a loved one. All this thread suggests is to add a tiny little background story or dialog to one of the areas about two male charr being in love. It would put a smile on some people’s faces and be ignored by the rest.

But honestly, why does it count only as “sexual feelings” if two males/females are involved and “just love” otherwise? Though Kasmeer and Marjory were a bit clichee to be honest, but look how the rest of the world around them reacted to it. Not all all. That is the message. It was just “normal”.

Kiza.5630:

Ape Ghosting.7396:

Sexual feelings do not belong in games.

But the game is already full of them. Many NPCs talking about their wives/husbands. Stories about how they lost a loved one. All this thread suggests is to add a tiny little background story or dialog to one of the areas about two male charr being in love. It would put a smile on some people’s faces and be ignored by the rest.

But honestly, why does it count only as “sexual feelings” if two males/females are involved and “just love” otherwise? Though Kasmeer and Marjory were a bit clichee to be honest, but look how the rest of the world around them reacted to it. Not all all. That is the message. It was just “normal”.

I agree with this. The best way to include same sex relationships is to not make a huge deal about them. They’re not some strange mythical unicorn. They’re just people interested in relationships. So let’s not worry too much about homosexual relationships just so we can all point and go “ohh, look at that!” That’s rude :p

woofie.5603:

Are there any gay charr?

What does it matter?

Vennyhedgie.5369:

Fun fact. The male charr player character can be homosexual (or at least hit on other charr males) in the personal story. In one of the early charr story missions “Rage supression” there’s this npc who you can compliment and he’ll get embarassed. Mind you, this dialogue is identical wether you play a male or female, but it’s still fun to hit on other fellow fuzzballs nonetheless, specially considering said NPC’s name is Strodum Crush maw

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rage_Suppression (scroll down to dialogue section)

I’ve been thinking about this, and I think it actually answers the question that it IS acceptable.

It’s not just that you can have your male charr make a pass at another male charr, it’s who’s nearby when you do so. Your warband, a random unlucky rancher, and Rytlock Brimstone himself.

I’m pretty sure that a newly appointed Blood Legionnaire would NOT do something socially unacceptable in the middle of a mission, right in front of Rytlock. Given that the only reaction you get is from the flustered charr you hit on, I think it’s safe to say that nobody cares.

romance in the game over all would be NICE, its like we spark up a love interest between some of the core NPC’s and then it just goes Poof. if you are the tree folk sylvari homosexuality is pushed in your face at EVERY turn. Now I’m all for Equal rights everyone has their own tastes But to force one point of view or another and then rub it in the face is insulting to everyone. At least give us REAL romance options that give some kind of addition to the story, not hint at it and watch it go fizzle pop (maybe even minus the pop) it just goes flat. what was the point of even having a CHARM option if it counts for nothing?! we are not asking you to add sex there are ways of getting around that but make our Charm, Might and leadership choice have some meaning!

no one is shoving anything down your throat, they’re mostly npc’s and you can choose to talk to them or not, you can also choose to read this topic or not.
Just showing a homosexual couple is not shoving down their sexuality on our faces, the same way as showing a straight couple is not shoving it either. It’s just showing a specific relationship between 2 npc’s.
Could you imagine if we gays complained about “straight propaganda”everytime a straight couple is shown in a videogame or a movie or a series? it would be pretty ridiculous right? because that’s how ridiculous some people look to us when they claim than just showing a homosexual couple of npc’s is “homosesxual propaganda” or “shoving their sexuality down out throat”
please remember that everyone is different, there are many things I don’t like, but I won’t complain when I see them because the world is not all about me. there are different people everywhere.

What is ridiculous is trying to cover every sexual niche with token representation. Please don’t make this game a fan fiction abomination. There is enough of the sexual stuff already. I am trying to play a game not take a sensitivity training course.

there is nothing sexual in the relationships mentioned in game, just romantic relationships. If you see something sexual about it maybe it’s just you.
Let’s try to keep this to charr homosexuality though ok? the OP didn’t ask about our opinion on homosexuality in general.

every niche of sexual preference or “sexual identity”….. does that clear it up for you

anyway back to the original topic, homosexuality in charr, if it’s not specified by the lore, it’s finally up to each person how they think it would be. We tend to humanize fantasy races, no matter how alien they are by our own experiences, and I think a safe middle spot is that some charr will mind and others won’t. So if someone wants to rp a gay charr they can, and if someone wants to rp a charr that has trouble with gay relationships then he can too.

Now that I agree with….. If players want homosexual charrs roleplay them yourselves. The game doesn’t need anymore token npcs.

One reason people see “homosexual propaganda” in this game is that if you offer differing views in the forum prohomosexual moderators will infract dissenting views for hate speech. I had a post in this very thread infracted earlier for hate speech(there was nothing hateful about it). I guess it is very easy to win a one sided argument when you stack the deck in your favor. Political correctness for the win!! I thought this was Tyria not Donna Shalala world.

homosexuality, or for that reason a lack of a overbearing drive to produce children due to, well, not having the utmost urge of shagging the opposite gender is usually looked down upon strongly in militaristic cultures since that would (to whatever negligible extent) lower the rate of potential soldier production.
from a human standpoint it is highly probably that charr are extremely homophobic.

Dashingsteel.3410:

One reason people see “homosexual propaganda” in this game is that if you offer differing views in the forum prohomosexual moderators will infract dissenting views for hate speech. I had a post in this very thread infracted earlier for hate speech(there was nothing hateful about it). I guess it is very easy to win a one sided argument when you stack the deck in your favor. Political correctness for the win!! I thought this was Tyria not Donna Shalala world.

You are confused.

The thread may be talking about a world inside of a computer, but it’s being read by humans living on the planet Earth. While here, human standards apply. Tyrian standards will only apply if you manage to actually get on Tyria and post on a forum there.

I hope that helps you learn the rules.

zaced.7948:

homosexuality, or for that reason a lack of a overbearing drive to produce children due to, well, not having the utmost urge of shagging the opposite gender is usually looked down upon strongly in militaristic cultures since that would (to whatever negligible extent) lower the rate of soldier production.
from a human standpoint it is highly probably that charr are extremely homophobic.

being a charr i can confirm that.

Ill have to counter you there. In ancient greek homosexuality was actually quite condoned in the military for improving morale. For lack of better words a well sexed soldier would probably focus better on the battlefield. I would feel that with a race like the Charr this would probably be the case ten-fold as they are far more militaristic then ANY race we have as humans in history entirely.

On top of that, the Charr commonly have food issues, being completely carnivorous they eat meat. More people that eat meat the harder it is to keep a supply in. I doubt the legions want a bunch of knocked up female Charr on their hands, giving birth to new maws to feed. At this point it dips into logistics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_the_militaries_of_ancient_Greece

Human standards……. Actually a very narrow standard of human thought which is political correctness. That seems to be the guiding light of the forum moderators. My comments which were censored by the moderator were not hateful. I understand the rules of the forum but refuse to be cowed by the pc police. If pc becomes what we think of as human standards, then we might as well be a colony of bees instead of humans.

and i’ll counter that with the argument that homosexuality was already widely accepted in greek society. obviously that acceptance would also exist and be made use of in the military. apart from that greece was not a typical militaristic culture. despite a great deal of warfare and conquest ancient greek culture was not mainly based around it.
Charr are more comparable to the romans, the tang dynasty or to a far lesser extent the mongols.

dashingsteel, please. we are talking about charr homosexuality. if you have issues with moderarors about a certain issue, please take it to PM.
again, about the charr, I think we have to think about an important factor that could help us get a more informed point of view. Do charr have sex merely for reproduction or also for pleasure? does any npc say anything that could answer that?
if charr have sex merely for reproduction and are a militaristic nation, then homosexuality would be probably more frowned upon. Do thery also have sex for pleasure/fun/social reasons? (like real world humans) if they do, then they understand that sex is not solely for procreation and maybe they wouldn’t frown upon a gay relationship, which doesn’t produce offspgring on its own.
Also, even if they did care about having lots of kids, if we take the 5-10% (some say 3-5%) of homosexuals among a community, it wouldn’t affect much their numbers.

As mentioned before, from what we’ve seen of the Charr in-game, the Charr don’t place much emphasis on relationships or parentings. Cubs are shipped off to a fahrar once they’re old enough, and then parents often have little to nothing to do with their kids after that. With that in mind, I think that the Legions ultimately don’t care who a Charr socializes with or rubs genitals with as long as it doesn’t interfere with their duties, the same way a Charr who drinks to excess might be disciplined for showing up drunk to their post, but another Charr who just has a couple drinks each night after work isn’t.

Take your adult fantasies to an 18 and over game. This is not a topic for kids.

NecroN.8306:

This is not a topic for kids.

Why? Homosexuality is a fact of life. It’s probably only a good thing for kids to see adults discussing it in a fairly respectful manner.

homosexuality is just as much of a topic for kids as heterosexuality.

Yea, the topic finally turns to religion!

Countdown to lock in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1….

zaced.7948:

coso.9173:

homosexuality is just as much of a topic for kids as heterosexuality.

no, it’s not for homosexuality is a sin against the heavenly father.

I’m sure Zeus doesn’t mind. Heck, just ask Ganymede how much Zeus doesn’t mind.

Animals, for the most part, use sex as means of reproduction so I can’t see a Charr digging the same sex. I don’t see Asura as digging the same sex either. Sylvari are A sexual so they don’t count.

There is a dialog in the blood legion personal story that can sound a bit homosexual if you have a male charr.

Rancher Strodum Crushmaw:
Did you have to shoo the exploding cow right toward me?

You: Yes.

RSC: Oh, you’re cute. Real cute.

You: You’re not bad yourself.

RSC: I wasn’t…uh…Jeez.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rage_Suppression

Double posted. There seems to be an issue with the forum software today.

lokimut.6475:

There is a dialog in the blood legion personal story that can sound a bit homosexual if you have a male charr.

Rancher Strodum Crushmaw:
Did you have to shoo the exploding cow right toward me?

You: Yes.

RSC: Oh, you’re cute. Real cute.

You: You’re not bad yourself.

RSC: I wasn’t…uh…Jeez.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rage_Suppression

I’m pretty sure my male charr necro had that scene. I viewed it as him being a wiseguy and providing a little comedy relief, though.

(sorry double post)

GuildWarsPlayer.5608:

Animals, for the most part, use sex as means of reproduction so I can’t see a Charr digging the same sex. I don’t see Asura as digging the same sex either. Sylvari are A sexual so they don’t count.

I disagree, if that was the case, there wouldn’t be homosexuality among animals, and yet it’s widely known by now that many species actually have homosexual sex and relationships. For example, penguins, who actually can form a bond between 2 members of the same sex, or dolphins, or many types of monkeys or male bats who have the highest rate of male homosexuality among mammals If my memory serves right.
Also, Sylvary are not asexual, (and even asexual people can still have sex btw) it has been etablished before that they do in fact have sex, but just for fun, not as a means of reproduction.

There were mentions of bestiality, asuran/human relations…… the ever famous fan fiction Logan Rytlock idiocy…… thus the word eccentricities….. I still fail to see how my comment registered as hate speech. I’ve seen much worse said about other things in these forums. Of course, they are not one of the pc prize pig topics.

I would prefer my video games to stay out of the realm of sexuality(PC or not)… but that’s just me.

I still say Logan and Zojja make a good couple ^_^ Their personalities go so well together.

Is guild wars 2 that devoid of content that Charr sexuality is actually at the tops of the forums…..Not only that- but whether or not they do butt stuff.

Like really?

SMH.

coso.9173:

no one is shoving anything down your throat, they’re mostly npc’s and you can choose to talk to them or not, you can also choose to read this topic or not.
Just showing a homosexual couple is not shoving down their sexuality on our faces, the same way as showing a straight couple is not shoving it either. It’s just showing a specific relationship between 2 npc’s.
Could you imagine if we gays complained about “straight propaganda”everytime a straight couple is shown in a videogame or a movie or a series? it would be pretty ridiculous right? because that’s how ridiculous some people look to us when they claim than just showing a homosexual couple of npc’s is “homosesxual propaganda” or “shoving their sexuality down out throat”
please remember that everyone is different, there are many things I don’t like, but I won’t complain when I see them because the world is not all about me. there are different people everywhere.

No, some of the dialogue the npcs just say without you even talking to them.

Seriously- wait for a group for fracs sometime. Every 10 seconds- “I used to be a dude, but now i’m a chick”

Not to imply that that’s wrong- but what you said is wrong.

still, hearing someone say she used to be a dude is not shoving their sexuality on your face anymore than hearing someone on the street talk about his wife/girlfriend or something.
again, imagine if we gays complained everytime we heard ANY mention of a heterosexual relationship, in the streets, in the movies, in videogames, in tv series, etc… can you even inagine the nonsense that would be?

GuildWarsPlayer.5608:

Animals, for the most part, use sex as means of reproduction so I can’t see a Charr digging the same sex. I don’t see Asura as digging the same sex either. Sylvari are A sexual so they don’t count.

Animals don’t think “oh i’ll go reproduce” they just follow their sexual urges, be careful of seeing the result and assuming intent.

What type of question are you asking? That’s like asking if the sky is blue or if yellow cheese is actually orange? Of course some are out there in this game, but you’ll have to find out who it is. Now I don’t know how high Charr’s sex drive is because it seems to me the only time they have their moment is when the action start. When it’s done they go on with their business. There will probably be romance in some charr society and possibly inter species, but that’s another story if Arena net wants to go down that route. Rox and Braham

Because this thread has derailed into off-topic comments, we’re going to go ahead and lock it.