Guild Wars 2

Seriously, the hate towards classes like Rangers (my main), Engies and Necros (currently at lvl70) is getting out of hand. I seriously love the concept of the later 2 classes and want to fully gear them for dungeons and fractals, but the hate they get is terrible and even their usefulness is very questionable compared to the other ones. Please tell me we can expect something on feb 26th

We’ve been asking for these three classes to be repaired for 5 months or so now, im not holding my breath, either roll a warrior or be gimped isn’t really valid balance..

Well if they do do a rebalance, I hope they tweek up the percieved weaker class, rather than tweeking down the percieved stronger class.

I’ve spent alot of time and energy on my 3 main toons. Don’t make me mad by weakening them.

I can live with the so called weaker classes being made better, but don’t dumb me down to them.

Heck, if you make the weaker better, I may make one of them my toon as well, and be happy about it.

Tom.6478:

Well if they do do a rebalance, I hope they tweek up the percieved weaker class, rather than tweeking down the percieved stronger class.

I’ve spent alot of time and energy on my 3 main toons. Don’t make me mad by weakening them.

I can live with the so called weaker classes being made better, but don’t dumb me down to them.

Heck, if you make the weaker better, I may make one of them my toon as well, and be happy about it.

I don’t get this logic. If everyone is on the same level everything should be fine, right? It doesn’t matter if that means that bad professions get better or “good” professions get dumbed down. If every profession is on one level it would be the best.

I second this…

So many people complained forever of PvP unbalance giving huge issues to the PvE population.

Now PvP is way more balanced than PvE that has some real issues.

Its time to discuss PvE classes considering PvE players are lot more of PvP players.

kokiman.2364:

I don’t get this logic. If everyone is on the same level everything should be fine, right?

Nope, it depends on the level. Making everyone be equally miserable is definitely not fine.

kokiman, it’s basicly correct, with one excpetion.
Suppose now a group of 5 full berserk exotic gear warriors takes down a boss in 60 seconds, and a group of 5 berserk reangers take the same boss down in 3 minutes, we wouldn’t want the 5 warrior nerfed to 3 minutes. We would like to see a group of people with the same gear output the same damage.

There will be differences as warriors outsurvive rangers by far, which is a natural difference, and the ranger far superior in ranged combat. The dps ourput should be the same for similar gear.
I belive that is all OP asks for.

omerk.2709:

kokiman, it’s basicly correct, with one excpetion.
Suppose now a group of 5 full berserk exotic gear warriors takes down a boss in 60 seconds, and a group of 5 berserk reangers take the same boss down in 3 minutes, we wouldn’t want the 5 warrior nerfed to 3 minutes. We would like to see a group of people with the same gear output the same damage.

There will be differences as warriors outsurvive rangers by far, which is a natural difference, and the ranger far superior in ranged combat. The dps ourput should be the same for similar gear.
I belive that is all OP asks for.

I think this is what all of us want. Right now, not only do the Warriors do insanely more damage, they survive more than any other class as well. Warriors also offer tons of utility to the team. Meanwhile Rangers do damage much lower than a Warrior and their contribution to team is sub-par as well. I mean if Ranger is supposed to be a selfish class with not much utilities for the team, then it should have a damage even higher than Warriors to compensate for lack of the things that Warriors offer.

a ranger with a bow should NOT do the same damage as a warrior in melee, as simple.

melee damage >> range damage

i dont know how much damage a ranger does with his melee attacks? that can be buffed maybe.

All classes should like the warrior. Being able to do decent damage, whether that be through raw damage or conditions, and being able to provide VALUABLE support.

Well, anet said they’re not gonna play whack-a-mole…
Shame they said that AFTER nerfing ranger into oblivion when closed beta ended, and kicking him in the balls with the “shortbow animation fix”

So lets hope for some good general buffs on weaker classes.

I’ve grouped with warriors that did less dps than an afk player simply because they spent more time downed than actually fighting….and when got up, they were downed again faster than a fat kid on a seesaw….

Aegis.9724:

Well, anet said they’re not gonna play whack-a-mole…
Shame they said that AFTER nerfing ranger into oblivion when closed beta ended, and kicking him in the balls with the “shortbow animation fix”

So lets hope for some good general buffs on weaker classes.

What they say and what they do are completely unrelated things I guess, just look at the manifesto ordeal. I was originally trying to say something much nicer in another thread, but it was “moderated” while I was typing it…
Basically they don’t give a kitten about core gamers who really want to crunch numbers and care for balancing, if the casual crowd is happy with bling bling and flashy effects, then everything is cool for them it seems.

Beside the hugely delayed making all classes wanted in all content patch, i would love an answer to the whole condition cap problem preventing people from feeling usefull in events, do we finally get a fix to this problem?

Most B2P MMOs are like that. They spend more time just trying to get stuff in their cash shops since that’s where the real money is from the business standpoint. And of course pumping out little xpacs to keep casuals busy. Catering to the hardcore player has gone the way of the dodo. I haven’t seen it since EQ 1 days.

knyy.6427:

a ranger with a bow should NOT do the same damage as a warrior in melee, as simple.

melee damage >> range damage

i dont know how much damage a ranger does with his melee attacks? that can be buffed maybe.

There are issues with this logic…

Do melee have the tools to get into melee range and circumvent any/all benefit the ranged class have? Yes.

Do rangers have equally useful tools to circumvent any/all ability for a melee class to stay in melee range? Absolutely not.

If a melee can get on a ranger and stay there but a ranger can’t get out of melee range and stay there, why shouldn’t the class be expected to do the same damage as any other class?

Especially when you consider the class also doesn’t offer any group utility outside of their healing field, has no burst potential at all outside of their pets, and rely on their pet to do 60% of their class’ total damage? If you ask me, a Ranger should do more damage (combined between pet and class) than a Warrior given all of the above. Especially when you consider you can’t balance a pet class around 100% pet uptime.

When a toon has no equipment and no trait points spent every class has the same power, prec, toughness, and vit. The only difrence is that warriors and necros have the highest base health.

The general consensus is that Engineers/Necromancers/Rangers are frustrated while the other five classes seem to be OK with the general direction of their professions.

There will always be outliers however; I thoroughly enjoy PLAYING my Engineer, I just wish it had more of a visible impact. Same goes with many Rangers and Necromancers.

Unfortunately, everyone has their breaking point, and the frustration generally leads to players either re-rolling into another class, furthering their population growth, or simply quitting the game. My Ranger friend recently quit the game and he truly loved it, he just felt he hit a proverbial wall with the class and did not have the fortitude to reroll another.

He might come back, he might not, but it is the general idea for a business to keep customers instead instead of shunning them.

I’m going to repost my opinion on (just one aspect of) class balancing here because my previous attempt at joining the conversation was merged into a closed off thread (!), telling us we should contribute here… so here I am!

From personal experience, I can confirm that engineer and ranger are somewhat under par compared to how I see other professions perform. It would be pretty cool should that be resolved soon, by either buffing the weakest professions (the engi-necro-ranger trinity), or by changing the game so that those classes become valuable. The latter would be the coolest, but would also be the hardest to do.

Sauzo.6821:

I’ve grouped with warriors that did less dps than an afk player simply because they spent more time downed than actually fighting….and when got up, they were downed again faster than a fat kid on a seesaw….

This^ …..

As for the boss being done in 1min with warriors vs 3mins with rangers, I see the problem being with OP’ed warriors, not the rangers. And if warriors don’t like that, then make it so both classes do the boss in 2min.

Of course the warriors will need to stay alive for twice as long, so there goes all those glass-cannon, zerker/MF warriors out the window …

Has there every been a monthly update without class specific changes?

All the pet classes are perceived as weaker, so the problem must be in the pet AI, It needs to be buffed.

My support engi does a great job in dungeons though it’s much more intensive than even my support ele. Would be nice if the heals had an improved radius.

emikochan.8504:

All the pet classes are perceived as weaker, so the problem must be in the pet AI, It needs to be buffed.

Pet classes (Ranger, Necro, Engi) are hampered by a reliance on an ally without the ability to dodge/avoid damage, have less health than ourselves, are unresponsive to commands, and when killed have a long CD before they can be brought back up, thus severly hindering damage output. If you place 40% of a Ranger’s damage into the teeth of its pet, and then make it so easy for a pet to die, you’ve severely cut the Ranger’s ability to deal consistent damage. Same goes for turrets and minions. Not to mention sub-optimal AI and pathing.

Necro = minions get protection when you apply regen to them, minion CD down to 5-10s
Ranger/Engi = +10% dps on autos

Ta-da, earned a slot in my frac teams.

Aflackduck.1835:

All classes should like the warrior

One wonders when it will finally become clear, Warrior will always be better then the rest. It simply can not happen that any other class has better damage, survivability or crowd-control.

What I´m going to write now is completely PvE-based.
I´ve only played guardian, mesmer and engineer yet, whilst the engi is my alltime favourite.
Why? Because the others are too kitten easy to play. Especially the guardian…
Yet, the engi is still far behind.
The engis damage-skills are practically MADE for melee-combat. See Toolkit, Rifle´s #3, #4 and #5, grenadekit´s kit refinement and bombkit.
Whereas I dare say that only traited bombkit (10 into explosives and 30 into inventions) is made so that an engineer can afford to stay in melee range without biting it all too soon.
Let´s see… What do I do with my engineer, when I want to squeeze out the highest damage I got over “long” time?
Traited 30/10/0/0/30 (The usual 100nades build except for some heavy might-stacking)
Using rifle, grenade kit, toolkit and… whatever the situation calls for on my third slot.

grenade barrage – switch to grenade kit for kit refinement – throw wrench – grenade #2 – grenade#4- grenade #5 – switch to toolkit – prybar – switch to rifle – rifle #3 – rifle #5 – switch to grenade kit – use grenade #1 until CD´s are up again – repeat

(dont forget that the game is animation-based and even when the cast-bar says that the skill is through, when the animation isn´t by only 0.5 seconds, and I try to swap kits and use skills as fast as possible to not create a too big delay between my hits, the skills or the swap just wont happen)
Why so many swaps? Why not simply use a weapons #1? Because they do, comparably, low damage. And if I ever have to use a #1, it´s either toolit´s or grenade kit´s for vulnearability stacking.
And still, that´s only on a not-attacking dummy. Now take defensive abilities, dodging, movement, etc into account, too.
Hell lot of fun (I´m being serious there) But soemtimes so daaaaaaamn……..!!!

When I hear from my guildies that their warriors do supposedly 3k+ crits on a normal hit…. I feel sick! I have to play on my keyboard like Beethoven on his piano to avoid using most of my #1 and to keep decent damage up…. just…. grrr!!!
Damagewise I´d say that I can, at least, definitely keep up with my shatter-specced s/p mesmer, yet I do not have the defense(mesmer: 1/4 of time invulnearable), nor the battle-mobility, nor do I have enough stunbreaks to stay anywhere close melee range over a long time, whilst my mesmer only needs to yawn to remove a stun.

Now… on to se secondary skills except for kits…
I think I don´t have to mention that turrets are either trash or too situational to truly shine?
Gadgets… some are okay but there are a lot of gadgets which are completely obsolete. (rocket boots. remove stun to stun yourself for 2 seconds)

And dont get me started on comparing my engi to my guardian T-T

That just screams for some balancing.

(p.s. even if the post seems to bash engis a bit, and I have to admit I started raging there…. I just love my engineer! Currently leveling my second engi to its 80´s x) )

take a bow shoot something once, take an axe hit something once. Why does the axe do more damage? You can hit more often. With magic guns and bows you can hit as often as with an axe/sword. Damage over time should be the same.

knyy.6427:

a ranger with a bow should NOT do the same damage as a warrior in melee, as simple.

melee damage >> range damage

i dont know how much damage a ranger does with his melee attacks? that can be buffed maybe.

Yargesh.4965:

take a bow shoot something once, take an axe hit something once. Why does the axe do more damage? You can hit more often. With magic guns and bows you can hit as often as with an axe/sword. Damage over time should be the same.

knyy.6427:

a ranger with a bow should NOT do the same damage as a warrior in melee, as simple.

melee damage >> range damage

i dont know how much damage a ranger does with his melee attacks? that can be buffed maybe.

It’s about risk vs. reward. With melee you hit harder but is easier to get hit. With ranged you avoid attacks easier so you should hit less. Ranger shortbow is also a condition weapon, hitting hard isn’t exactly its strength. Nonetheless, ranger longbow is just sub-par compare too ALL other ranger weapons.

Recycle.5493:

Yargesh.4965:

take a bow shoot something once, take an axe hit something once. Why does the axe do more damage? You can hit more often. With magic guns and bows you can hit as often as with an axe/sword. Damage over time should be the same.

knyy.6427:

a ranger with a bow should NOT do the same damage as a warrior in melee, as simple.

melee damage >> range damage

i dont know how much damage a ranger does with his melee attacks? that can be buffed maybe.

It’s about risk vs. reward. With melee you hit harder but is easier to get hit. With ranged you avoid attacks easier so you should hit less. Ranger shortbow is also a condition weapon, hitting hard isn’t exactly its strength. Nonetheless, ranger longbow is just sub-par compare too ALL other ranger weapons.

No….

This is why melee get things like heavy armor, shields, and utility to increase survivability. The risk a melee take charging at a ranger is inconsequential compared to the risk the ranger takes shooting the warrior before charged.

In a group dynamic you give the classes tools to survive in those scenarios. You don’t reduce damage of other classes randomly so a warrior can charge them. This is why Warriors have things like shield, reflect damage, endure pain, stuns, ae fear, etc.

Atherakhia.4086:

No….

This is why melee get things like heavy armor, shields, and utility to increase survivability.

This isn’t WoW. Every class, regardless of their type of armor, has melee and ranged weapons. My dagger Necro sure doesn’t have heavy armor or shields. Ranged weapons have the advantage of not requiring the user to be in direct danger and should not deal as much damage as melee weapons. If Rangers ever deal damage on part with GS or Axe Warriors (and whether they ever should is another topic entirely), it should be with their melee weapons, not their ranged.

Class balance? Ha! on February? Ha Ha!
Good luck with that -_-

I think that Anet needs to shy away from the pure DPS aspect of the game which has become immensely popular and make it so that shutdown and control become as desireable for players. Basically it boils down to “how fast can we get those red bars to go down” which was a similar problem with the first game and why a lot of builds/skills were never used in PVE. It’s not just about making the “weaker” classes do more damage and faster but also for more playstyles to become more viable by tweaking dungeon mechanics and other encounters throughout PVE.

To be honest, engineers, rangers, and necros need to be looked at thoroughly. Hell, some of the traits don’t even work in PvE such as the trait that lets you ground target turrets!

Necro needs some serious work in PvP. Stomping, avoiding stomping and escape abilities.

Can’t evade a stomp? Fine, at least let that class escape combat sometimes. Can’t stomp with invuln? Fine, give them a way to dodge the initial stomp. Can’t escape? Fine, give them abilities to avoid the first stomp and/or stomp with invulnerability.

Currently, AFAIK the Necro is the only class without a reliable stomp, counter-stop or escape mechanism.

DKNS.2135:

Seriously, the hate towards classes like Rangers (my main), Engies and Necros (currently at lvl70) is getting out of hand. I seriously love the concept of the later 2 classes and want to fully gear them for dungeons and fractals, but the hate they get is terrible and even their usefulness is very questionable compared to the other ones. Please tell me we can expect something on feb 26th

The only time I seem to care is when I crunch numbers. My Ranger is my main and he is more viable than my warrior in dungeons and sPvP. WvW he isn’t all that bad. There is no such thing as ‘ranger hate’

As far as necros are concerned, have you dungeoned him/her? Necros are complete B.A.’s in dungeons and WvW. Many of guildies have shown me how any class is viable in most situations.

I understand where you are coming from, but I think too many people care about number crunching rather than just playing and having fun.

Ehra.5240:

Atherakhia.4086:

No….

This is why melee get things like heavy armor, shields, and utility to increase survivability.

This isn’t WoW. Every class, regardless of their type of armor, has melee and ranged weapons. My dagger Necro sure doesn’t have heavy armor or shields. Ranged weapons have the advantage of not requiring the user to be in direct danger and should not deal as much damage as melee weapons. If Rangers ever deal damage on part with GS or Axe Warriors (and whether they ever should is another topic entirely), it should be with their melee weapons, not their ranged.

WoW has nothing to do with it. This has been a mechanic in countless games before it.

The type of armor a class has is offset by the tools available to the class and what kind of combat that class is expected to do. Countless variables at play.

You bring up the necro example, and what does that class have to offset no heavy armor? they get a second health bar and more health than warriors. They also get toughness options.

What do Thieves have to offset no heavy armor? Stealth.

What do Elementalists have to offset no heavy armor? Exteme mobility and every skill option being defensive in nature with fairly large gap openners.

The only way you’d ever have a point is if melee classes didn’t have tools to get into melee range other than their W key. They don’t so the point you’re trying to make is null. The point you should be making is why doesn’t the Warrior class have the survivability to get into range. It shouldn’t be to nerf every ranged class so you can get into melee range.

Atherakhia.4086:

WoW has nothing to do with it. This has been a mechanic in countless games before it.

The type of armor a class has is offset by the tools available to the class and what kind of combat that class is expected to do. Countless variables at play.

You bring up the necro example, and what does that class have to offset no heavy armor? they get a second health bar and more health than warriors. They also get toughness options.

What do Thieves have to offset no heavy armor? Stealth.

What do Elementalists have to offset no heavy armor? Exteme mobility and every skill option being defensive in nature with fairly large gap openners.

I hope you realize you just explained why your first argument is invalid. Classes with less armor are given tools to make up for it, which means heavy vs light armor is irrelevant to a discussion about the risk vs reward of using ranged weapons vs melee. Especially since, again, access to melee or ranged weapons isn’t limited by armor type.

You’re talking about nerfs to ranged damage, but this is already how the game works. Ranged weapons almost universally deal less damage than melee weapons because melee weapons require the user to put themselves at more risk. It doesn’t matter if the person is a Ranger, Necro, or Warrior.

As much as I want it to happen, I’ve pretty much given up on it.

And yes, I cringe every time I invite a pug Necro/Ranger/Engi to our group. I’m not to the point where I will kick them outright, as I hate doing that… but I can’t say I don’t want to.

Inb4 dps doesn’t matter.

Tyrantis.8640:

[…] I think too many people care about number crunching rather than just playing and having fun.

^ This!

I bought GW2 because it’s not WoW (or so the reviews made me believe).

dinominator.9862:

Tyrantis.8640:

[…] I think too many people care about number crunching rather than just playing and having fun.

^ This!

I bought GW2 because it’s not WoW (or so the reviews made me believe).

As a former WoW player… the game isn’t WoW and that makes me happy.

My 2 cents as a ranger main; When i’m in a dungeon group, i focus on controlling the mobs instead of dps, and outputting constant dps. This is done via axe and longbow and traps, if you are sad over the lack of ranger dps, focus on the conditions and control a ranger can apply to the battlefield, put up combo fields for your allies, slow down your enemies to increase your parties survival, and do what dmg you can in the meantime. Never had a group complain about my performance in a dungeon doing that (after i convinced them to let me join at least). These kinda things are not needed in a cof p1 speed farm (though some chill on the first boss….would see less warrior deaths eh?) so usually I just stay out of those groups and don’t worry about it.

The main hate on rangers is because we use pet builds or marksman builds, which USED to be more viable before the shortbow nerf, and would be more viable with longbow if the 1 skill were just a bit faster imo. The longbow skills themselves do good dmg, and if you’re worried about staying ranged (grawl volcano fractal, charr fractal, lupicus, graveling ac bosses, etc.) then popping a 1500 range barrage or just plinking some shots at a distance no other class can easily match will keep you safe and doing constant (if not high) dps, and soon you’ll be the only one left alive and solo’ing that boss down.

As far as necro goes, if you’re relying on pets you’re missing a good build; the condition mancer, throw down wells and marks on a group, and theres some major dps, heck try multiple necros in wvw, those marks really add up.

On engineer, i say good luck, mine is at lvl 8 and its been a painful leveling experience so far (and no, i dont craft to 80, i take that time to learn my class and its playstyle)

Zyst.3514:

As far as necro goes, if you’re relying on pets you’re missing a good build; the condition mancer, throw down wells and marks on a group, and theres some major dps, heck try multiple necros in wvw, those marks really add up.

That’s basically an Affliction Warlock… a very fun build.

Ehra.5240:

Atherakhia.4086:

WoW has nothing to do with it. This has been a mechanic in countless games before it.

The type of armor a class has is offset by the tools available to the class and what kind of combat that class is expected to do. Countless variables at play.

You bring up the necro example, and what does that class have to offset no heavy armor? they get a second health bar and more health than warriors. They also get toughness options.

What do Thieves have to offset no heavy armor? Stealth.

What do Elementalists have to offset no heavy armor? Exteme mobility and every skill option being defensive in nature with fairly large gap openners.

I hope you realize you just explained why your first argument is invalid. Classes with less armor are given tools to make up for it, which means heavy vs light armor is irrelevant to a discussion about the risk vs reward of using ranged weapons vs melee. Especially since, again, access to melee or ranged weapons isn’t limited by armor type.

You’re talking about nerfs to ranged damage, but this is already how the game works. Ranged weapons almost universally deal less damage than melee weapons because melee weapons require the user to put themselves at more risk. It doesn’t matter if the person is a Ranger, Necro, or Warrior.

Again, it isn’t a risk vs reward argument. There isn’t any risk for a Warrior to close into melee range against a Ranger. You balance classes on a rock/paper/scissors basis. You don’t balance your entire game around it because that would be impossible. If the melee need assistance in melee range you improve their options, you don’t nerf the damage of their opponent.

Otherwise there’s no excuse for Rifle to do similar burst as GS at range. Or why Longbow can out damage Ele ranged AE options. Or how Thief Shortbow has 2x the damage with 3x the utility of a Ranger.

What excuse is there for melee classes being better at range than the ranged classes? Especially when the Ranged melee options are so mediocre (d/d ele being an exception; at least in the survivability argument, not so much the damage one).

Oh, and it also has to be said that I’m not tyring to imply Warriors are fine as they clearly aren’t. They need realistic options to condition removal, they need snares to not affect rush and bulls charge just like they don’t effect ride the lightning and swoop, etc. But what the Warrior needs is minor compared to what the Ranger, Engineer, and Necro need right now.

DKNS.2135:

Seriously, the hate towards classes like Rangers (my main), Engies and Necros (currently at lvl70) is getting out of hand. I seriously love the concept of the later 2 classes and want to fully gear them for dungeons and fractals, but the hate they get is terrible and even their usefulness is very questionable compared to the other ones. Please tell me we can expect something on feb 26th

I do not know if it is this month, but in the State of the game stream, they mentioned during the “We are going to be nerfing the D/D Ele” segment, that they are currently working on Engi’s, so got my fingers crossed.

they also compared the ranger’s plite to warriors requesting the ability to dual wield greatswords. So /shrug.

Don’t get your hopes up.
There’s a whopping 2 people working on all of the class balances.

I expect nothing more than across-the-board changes and Tooltip spelling error fixes. Maybe the AOE nerfs too.

My Main is a Ranger (has been for 5 months). I’m leveling a Warrior right now and it’s like two different worlds.

I feel like I’m gimping my team in L20+ Fractals on my Ranger since my pet is so useless in it.

I can’t even use my “Search and Rescue” (resurrection) because my pet is always on his back. As a result, my damage is gimped by 40% or so?

In other peoples examples they are comparing classes under the assumption they are using berserkers gear so I will do use it too. I think the problem on the engie is that they do not have good mid range to long range direct damage. Yes you could just auto attack with the rifle from a distance but auto attacking gives less overall damage than combining skills together. To use other rifle skills you have to get close range but that is something you do not want to do on a medium or light armor class, especially with berserkers gear. The other engie kits dont deal that much damage at range either (Grenades may come closest to dps but no where near what a gs can do though)

I cant talk about other classes but those are my two cents on engie. They need better medium range skills because the way you currently have to play dps engie is cqc, like a warrior just except without the heavy armor or massive gs damage.

Atherakhia.4086:

Again, it isn’t a risk vs reward argument. There isn’t any risk for a Warrior to close into melee range against a Ranger.

Which means Ranger melee weapons should probably be buffed. At the very least, Ranger GS needs one.

What excuse is there for melee classes being better at range than the ranged
classes?

There are no melee or ranged classes. Everyone can do either.

Ehra.5240:

There are no melee or ranged classes. Everyone can do either.

Yeah, but it’s sad that a Ranger is mediocre at both.
Especially when their philosophy for a Ranger is :

Unparalleled archers, rangers are capable of bringing down foes from a distance with their bows.

They should add small print at the bottom that says “Not really unparalleled. But they do have bows.”

I’m not gonna spend anymore money on the gem store untill they make some proper class balancing.