Guild Wars 2

Aidenwolf.5964:

Fenrir.3609:

Im not sure what the point of this thread is.

There has always been and always will be, optimal builds for specific content. Those optimal builds will evolve over time as the game changes and as people find new, more optimal builds.

If you like to make your own build outside of that, that’s nice, it more than likely wont be optimal, but go you!

There is only meta for speed runs. My point is this, that thinking has wormed it’s way into open world, for which, there is no meta.

Of course there is a meta for open world – it’s just it’s not a single build meta. Still, there are builds that are more optimal for certain events, builds that are suboptimal, and builds that are just plain bad. Of course blindly following meta is not a good thing (you need to know why and when does it apply, to be able to pick a right build for the situation – Teq meta is different from CoF speedrun one). Blindly avoiding meta however is equally bad.

What you seem to forget is that “meta” doesn’t mean “you must run this or gtfo”. It means “Those builds are good, while those others – not so much”. Which applies to any form of content – even to open world.

Star Ace.5207:

Latinkuro.9420:

you are aware that the triple wurm event is what is called an open world RAID right ?
as such it is designed with meta builds in mind and made as hard as possible to beat using mentioned meta builds, now imagine trying to beat that kind of content with your idea of fun build? from that perspective I say if you wanna run your cookie have fun build don’t go trying to join a RAID !

The designers attached the word “raid” to these events to attract players like you, but these are not raids like those you crave for. And I am sure they disagree with your intolerance for people playing non-meta builds-almost 100% sure that is a community problem, and not ANet’s choice in designing them.

Even GW1 harder missions were more strict about builds than this game. This game has a very “whatever works for you” feel to it, which I readily embrace-meta builds have their place of course, but should not be forced on those who dislike them.

But again, my point is that in no way these events we designed to enforce specific builds. That’s a community’s choice, not the designer’s.

Exactly. Besides, just to add to what you said: If devs wanted to promote these builds (or better, Zerker build) even more than the community already does, they would not be about to give a nerf on Crit damage, don’t you think?

There is some pants on head lunacy in this thread.

Run whatever build you want, but do not expect it to be as good, optimal or efficient as the current meta and do not castigate those that use (are capable of using) the optimal build as “sheep”.

Those “elite” players more often than not readily point out that you can do the content using other build comps, they merely state that it is not as efficient or as optimal as the meta (when used correctly).

Fenrir.3609:

There is some pants on head lunacy in this thread.

Run whatever build you want, but do not expect it to be as good, optimal or efficient as the current meta and do not castigate those that use (are capable of using) the optimal build as “sheep”.

Those “elite” players more often than not readily point out that you can do the content using other build comps, they merely state that it is not as efficient or as optimal as the meta (when used correctly).

Taking no offense whatsoever to the pants a on head lunacy comment, because its funny, and who doesn’t like to laugh? My original point was that asking all rangers to run the exact same pets, skills, and traits, is why I titled this Clone Wars 2. To borrow from biology, bio diversity is what keeps species from going extict when confronted by a virus and having several kinds of rangers actually adds to the groups chances for success. Having a spirit ranger around may not maximize DPS, but so what.

Meta DPS is simple math, which is only potential damage per second, if you’re running back from a waypoint because you died, you’re doing zero DPS.

Ameepa.6793:

The question is that are those requirements really needed?

It is very common that as soon as something new is in a game, the “elite” players make up some rules and requiremets and believe that they are absolutely necessary to complete it and drive away everyone who are not doing as they say.

Then almost always after a while all kinds of “naked kill”, “kill with 0 talent points!” and “20 man content 10 manned!” videos and threads start to appear. Proving that the original requirements were totally unnecessary and the only thing that really was needed was practice.

Except without those “elite” players no one would ever beat it. There wouldn’t be guides online telling you exactly where to stand, or videos showing you what to do if it wasn’t for those jerk elite players. They go in with the best gear and the best ability in order to figure out the correct strategy. Without them the rest of you “have fun” players would be in a corner dead and crying how the content was too hard because you don’t have anyone to tell you exactly what to do and where to go in order to beat the content in subpar gear.

This is much more obvious in traditional MMO’s where the skill ceiling is much higher and there is difficult content, but the same thing applies to a lesser extent in the gw2 zerg. When teq first launched it took hour and hours of coordination and everyone having max gear and max summon items and max food buffs just to beat teq with 2 seconds left. As they refined the strategy they learned where to stand and how to be more efficient so those requirements relaxed and more people could complete it. But without those elite jerks telling you how to do it you never would have beaten it in the first place.

Aidenwolf.5964:

Fenrir.3609:

There is some pants on head lunacy in this thread.

Run whatever build you want, but do not expect it to be as good, optimal or efficient as the current meta and do not castigate those that use (are capable of using) the optimal build as “sheep”.

Those “elite” players more often than not readily point out that you can do the content using other build comps, they merely state that it is not as efficient or as optimal as the meta (when used correctly).

Taking no offense whatsoever to the pants a on head lunacy comment, because its funny, and who doesn’t like to laugh? My original point was that asking all rangers to run the exact same pets, skills, and traits, is why I titled this Clone Wars 2. To borrow from biology, bio diversity is what keeps species from going extict when confronted by a virus and having several kinds of rangers actually adds to the groups chances for success. Having a spirit ranger around may not maximize DPS, but so what.

Meta DPS is simple math, which is only potential damage per second, if you’re running back from a waypoint because you died, you’re doing zero DPS.

Glad you didn’t take offense, none was meant.

Whilst there are indeed metas for open world pve as well, the majority of the “meta” crowd do not ask, nor expect everyone to always run the same meta build. It gets asked for in highly specific instances (like speed run groups and competitive pvp) and in those cases, they are more than entitled to expect the people within the group to be running the meta builds.

The current meta is the best composition (dependant upon player skills). Having a total mix up/increase in variety does not improve upon that, if it did, that mix up would itself be the meta.

As for the whole “if zerks are dead, they do no damage” thing, well if someone is not skilled enough to run the meta, then the issue is with the player, not the meta.

The simple fact is that the meta builds are the optimal builds for the given content and you get these metas in every facet of the game. People running those builds are not “sheep”, nor can bads using said builds and dying all the time be used in some way to castigate the meta.

Meta build are the flavor of the month. Its the best build available at the moment. It can be wrong (some people can find a new better build at some point) or its can change (with update and patch).

But anyway, for the Wurm or course most people want the other to run DPS build with specific skills and weapons. This event is really hard. I do it on a regular basis as part of TTS. Several times per week, with almost everybody in TS, we split evenly the numbers, we form special task party (reflect, condi, power, etc), we give food, most people use oil and consumable, we have leader and players of experience and even after all that we fail more than we succeed. Of course with time this will change, but still, its normal to ask people to run the best thing possible because if they don’t we gonna fail.

Fenrir.3609:

There is some pants on head lunacy in this thread.

Had to quote this for truth, and it made me laugh …

I have been at this event many times. I have seen the ‘let me do my own thing’ approach constantly fail, and I have seen the all on teamspeak, well organised, min/max approach succeed.

I can confidently tell you if 10 players, out of 140-odd doing the event, do not know their roll and/or are incorrectly specced, the event will fail. The margins between success and failure for this event are that tight.

This is about organisation and each player min/max’ed for their roll in the event. The required builds are those best suited for doing a particular task, specific o this event. This has nothing to do with the overall game meta this is not a dungeon speed run.

It does not mean you need to be a super ‘elite’ player, only that you try your best at what you are supposed to do, follow instructions. At each wurm there should be around 40-odd players with you, so it is not like you need to solo the event.

I tried a guard meta build last night and it was horrible for my play style.

I think its best to give different builds a try and stick with the ones that match what you like to do. Don’t buy into elitism or people that claim they know what’s best for you.

So, for the sake of completeness, what exactly are the “meta” builds for each class, and can we get some links to each?

Psientist.6437:

DreamyAbaddon.3265:

Dynnen.6405:

‘Meta’ [met-uh]: Latin

Meaning – We can’t balance kitten

Not going to lie but that made me laugh. lol =)

Just how much balance do you think is possible? It sounds like the level of balance many want would only be possible if there were one class with one skill.

There is only one class with one skill that’s important here or didn’t you hear? Warrior and “For Great Justice” ;D

As far as I can see, there is no “you have to be sporting this build” sign to ride this ride for those events so bring whatever build you want. The proliferation of cookie cutter builds has been going for the entire year I have been playing this game and god forbid someone catches you using runes of the ranger on a guardian. You can choose to listen to those people or you can ignore them and continue to play as you wish.

If a mob mentality exists where driving only certain builds should take part in an event, that event will begin to fail more and more because regular players won’t go where they’re being berated publicly for bringing their favorite toon.

You players espousing the necessity of certain builds (or blaming everyone but Warriors and Guardians when things fail) are cutting your own throats. There are plenty of champ trains for those that want to have fun while they play, they don’t need you as much as you need them, don’t forget that lest you just run on empty. Been to a scarlet event lately? Deadsville.

Look, there are serious players who don’t want to burn time so they pressure others to step in line so they can get the giant carrot at the end of the wurms or the marionette or in WvW or where-ever. People can tow the line or they can think for themselves, I prefer the latter.

That being said, there are a TON of builds out there that have been optimized by those very same serious players that DO WORK as intended. You may think you truly understand the science behind builds but there are people who do nothing but data mine until that perfect combo comes up. They want to share that with the world but they miss that it is the player that makes the build, not the other way around. Don’t be afraid of trying something new but do it because the build enhances YOUR style of play.

I make easy now, I make new character, I give him name “The Meta”. I make new trait every week, you can copy. I make only one class though! One class is Meta, you play other you no meta. You may omega.

I no take serious. I can no take serious. You tell player a to do meta, he no meta player, he not knows. He better non-meta. He may be awesome non-meta. He crushed on the floor now, reaching up meta-hand for entire event. No win.

I make even easier solution. I come for beginning of new “raid” events. I make meta achievement (is pun in there? was not wanted). I help everyone by not coming to raid event. Ultimate meta.

Count number of word meta in post. Win.

For Grape Juice!

Aidenwolf.5964:

Latinkuro.9420:

you are aware that the triple wurm event is what is called an open world RAID right ?
as such it is designed with meta builds in mind and made as hard as possible to beat using mentioned meta builds, now imagine trying to beat that kind of content with your idea of fun build? from that perspective I say if you wanna run your cookie have fun build don’t go trying to join a RAID !

You’re aware that there is nothing they could’ve done to make me leave right? I left because I’m tired of hearing meta talk. Speed runs are one thing, this is open world, and 90% of the time even with full meta, you fail.

Don’t try to join a raid? 100 uplevels could hop in a zone.

You’re aware that every successful MMO in the history of mankind has meta builds right?

DeathPanel.8362:

You’re aware that every successful MMO in the history of mankind has meta builds right?

How is this helpful in the least?

pretty much the same in any mmorpg. There are basically the same kinds of players everywhere (with a few exceptions):

a) the truly clueless who just throw together stats that sound cool etc and create useless builds
b) the clueless “you don´t tell me how to play” player with a mission, willfully creating builds that don´t work well, yet believes them to
c) people who copy cookie cutter builds that work
d) very good players who find great potential in off beat builds or come up with builds that work very well in synergy with their playstyle.

the majority of a player base usually consists of a) and c) – and for most players, c) works very well, so that´s were that bias you describe comes from. Suffering are usually players of category d), because when you see an unknown player with an off beat build, you probably assume a) and b)

Fenrir.3609:

There is some pants on head lunacy in this thread.

Run whatever build you want, but do not expect it to be as good, optimal or efficient as the current meta and do not castigate those that use (are capable of using) the optimal build as “sheep”.

Those “elite” players more often than not readily point out that you can do the content using other build comps, they merely state that it is not as efficient or as optimal as the meta (when used correctly).

First, the people that “castigate” more often are the ones that have what they think is the optimal build. There is a reason why the word sheep is used. Some innovative person does a lot of experimenting and grunt work. He reinvents a class with a unique way to produce mucho damage. That’s when other latch onto to his theories, use them, then berate anyone that doesn’t use it. Remember Elementalists early in the game? They went from everyone complaining about how weak they were to people complaining how overpowered they were all in a matter of a month. Just because ONE guy figured out a way to make D/D powerful.

You will get players that swear up and down that they need specific armor/traits to do an encounter effeciently. Then along comes someone who tweaks and improves the build making the old ‘meta’ obsolete. Then the sheep change their builds and mock anyone who had the previous “optimal” build. The irony in that always makes me smile.

This thread makes me laugh, if only because people are arguing “play with the build you want vs play with the build you want”.

Defeating the encounter>your desire to be a special snowflake

It’s called teamwork. If you can’t or won’t accept that, feel free to go back to the queensdale train. Not wasting an hour just to wipe because a few people won’t fall in line.

people in spvp/tpvp will use fotm builds because they are uncreative and cant think of anything but the most noob proof cheese builds in the game. You cant do anything to talk anet out of making things like this because what little of the spvp/tpvp community left will QQ all over the forums in which case effect wvw/pve players.

People will play meta and copy/paste builds because they don’t want to put in effort to make something of their own. Why do you think there’s a evade spam condi ranger/terror necro/pu mesmer/hambow/healway condi engi in every game? Because these builds are easy to play and don’t require much to play these builds as all the atk chains are straight forward.

Pexx.6327:

This thread makes me laugh, if only because people are arguing “play with the build you want vs play the build you are forced to play because everything else sucks”.

fixed that for yah.

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Defeating the encounter>your desire to be a special snowflake

It’s called teamwork. If you can’t or won’t accept that, feel free to go back to the queensdale train. Not wasting an hour just to wipe because a few people won’t fall in line.

Wow….“because a few people won’t fall in line”

Which line are you talking about ’cuz I am going to stay away from that one, your bias towards what you “think” is correct is obvious and playing along side of you will likely earn me more “castigation” than I currently desire. Go run a dungeon instead of trying to change a very public event to your individual whim.

This thread is both hilarious and depressing at the same time.

Have some relevant XKCDs.

Now if you’ll excuse me, I have some dungeons to run.

Cassocaster.4576:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Defeating the encounter>your desire to be a special snowflake

It’s called teamwork. If you can’t or won’t accept that, feel free to go back to the queensdale train. Not wasting an hour just to wipe because a few people won’t fall in line.

Wow….“because a few people won’t fall in line”

Which line are you talking about ’cuz I am going to stay away from that one, your bias towards what you “think” is correct is obvious and playing along side of you will likely earn me more “castigation” than I currently desire. Go run a dungeon instead of trying to change a very public event to your individual whim.

This is pretty simple. If I’m going to spend an hour waiting for an event (to avoid) overflows), I want to WIN. I figure everyone else wants to win as well, otherwise they wouldn’t be there. Experiment with your special and unique builds on your own time, ok? Not at a world event where the snowflakes inevitably end up wasting everyone’s time.

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Defeating the encounter>your desire to be a special snowflake

It’s called teamwork. If you can’t or won’t accept that, feel free to go back to the queensdale train. Not wasting an hour just to wipe because a few people won’t fall in line.

Get out of this game if you think only “your kind” should play it.

And yes, people are special snowflakes, including yourself. Stupid pejorative that it is.

No need to “fall in line” with absurd people like you, who feels superior to the “masses” for one reason or the other . You probably have no idea how arrogant and self-important your statement sounded.

And most importantly, people can still engage in AWESOME teamwork while having diverse builds and playstyles. The “meta approach” isn’t for everybody-people ARE special snowflakes, and one size doesn’t fit all.

In short, teamwork =/= meta build play. Period.

And yes, you should play how you want-if that’s meta, that’s FINE. But don’t castigate others for playing their own way as well-intentionally borrowing words from previous posters.

Big dynamic events require experience and teamwork-everybody fulfilling special roles given any event. That much I can agree with. The “optimal builds”, save them for your uber-leet speedruns of awesomeness which most players don’t care about anyway.

And if I am going to be infracted for this, at least consider why I reacted this way. Ridiculous, assumptive, inflammatory comments against “non-elites” must stop poisoning this public space and giving the game a bad name.

(If you are “awesome,” you don’t need to belittle/be condescending towards others, darn it. Nobody is ruining your game for having fun their way-the events were made public, so you gotta accept that they weren’t meant ONLY for min/maxers and/or “leet” types.)

If you walk out onto the football field with your hockey stick, and say you intend to play the way you want, I think the team is justified in pointing out that hockey equipment is not optimal for football.

Naevius.3185:

If you walk out onto the football field with your hockey stick, and say you intend to play the way you want, I think the team is justified in pointing out that hockey equipment is not optimal for football.

Except that no alternative “non-meta” build will resemble a hockey stick. Same weapons, same traits are available. In other words, example N/A.

You know everyone said the same thing for Tequatl and I’ve killed him dozens of times in a guardian shout/healing build. I think once the fight becomes routine, the need for meta builds will become less important. For right now everyone is clamoring for it because they believe it is the only way to win. That will change eventually.