Guild Wars 2

Interesting topic going on over at Reddit, basically discussing how CoF speed runs make a mockery of every other fractal/dungeon in the game in terms of rewards and gold/hour possibilities.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/1d0p09/high_level_fractals_and_the_loot_joy_and_sighs/

What do you think?

That some very creative players found a way to use the synergy so important to this game in a way the devs never intended, to DPS down bosses at rates the devs never intended. Also think the flexibility the devs put in this game to skip both trash and bosses is being abused.

I speculate we’ll see this one nerfed. Just hope the devs don’t make explorables generally harder for the rest of us, but rather force a more complete run and maybe take a look at how high might ought to be able to stack.

Even if they nerf cof, people will just move to the next best farm dungeon.

We see what happen when they nerf pent/shelter. People just move to the next best farm spot.

The part where players are farming for “gold” is what cause the behavior. You don’t see it much in other game because people are farming for unique loot specific for the dungeon. Take for example, I still do fractal time to time because I want rings or backpiece for my alt. But the other dungeon I really don’t do it unless I’m bored of farming.

Yep, it’s been exploited, and many players do not play it for fun, but more for the rewards, so they couldn’t care less about playing pacing themselves. To which they reply: “I’ve done it tons of times, why take more time doing a boring Dungeon?” To which I usually say: “Why play a Dungeon that is boring to you in the first place?” To which they reply: “There’s no other faster way to earn gold for the time and effort in the game.” Therefore, the exploit continues for the sakes of the rewards (gold/ecto, etc.), and content is exploited because how easy is to conquer it with that popular spec. (it’s also easy with ANY other party spec., but that’s the popular one that most will copy, because it’s theoretically bound to be the fastest.)

I agree that I doubt this was ever intended by the developers, and have been clamoring myself for a major change to this one path, but I imagine it won’t be easy for developers to achieve the right balance, and many people will complain day and night once their favorite (if not only) way to make gold on GW2 is taken away from them.

I just want them to balance each and every dungeon path so that CoF 1 never happens again, and so there will be more parity between all Explorable paths-there will always be some easier paths than others, but none should be exploitable nor easily stomped over in 5:30 minutes or less by any party composition, “zerk” or otherwise.

To the more neutral-opinion players out there I say: there’s no point in farming 12 hours a day for a Legendary to “show-off” in a game that you don’t really enjoy playing “normally”. While getting the Legendary weapon of choice is indeed a valid goal, once you get that weapon, what will be there left for you to enjoy in the game? Do farm for it, but be aware that it will be all for naught if you don’t really enjoy anything else on GW2-there’s way more things to do in this universe than just getting that weapon.

As far as my personal opinion on this thread’s question: it is not good or bad, but a player choice. What is wrong is mistreating others for not playing with the build that works best for you (“is more efficient”) but may not be the best for them, and negating others the right to play and enjoy GW2 as they please, rather than forcing others to see things your way (“play my efficient way, darn it, or be kicked/never accepted in my party!”) Anyone that wishes to farm for 180 gold per day is very well entitled to that, as long as he/she understands it’s just what he/she enjoys, and that he/she is not superior in any way to others for doing this, nor should he/she belittle others for refusing to join the “farming system” already established.

Note that the current solution to this problem is: do not join a CoF1 group with exclusivist remarks in the first place, if you are not that type of player. Play with something else not “4 zerk wars/1 zerk Mesmer” or that doesn’t force a gear check if you are not fully into farming CoF 1 their way-which is a valid choice, whatever they may think.

In short, never let anyone tell you how to play. It’s your character, and yours alone. It’s up to YOU if you want to copy them (that’s fine), but don’t feel forced to choose a build/gear on whatever else is doing, if you don’t feel it’s the right fit for your character and/or playstyle.

CoF path 1 should be made harder. And they shouldn’t annouce it. One day just make it so that every warrior in Berzerker armor gets hit with the Bezerker gear curse, and suffers permanent weakness in the dungeon.

They should make it so that an invisible wall pops up on the bridge, until everything in the bonus event is dead..but they shouldn’t tell anyone.

Man, the forums would be awesome for a couple of days after that. lol

bewhatever.2390:

That some very creative players found a way to use the synergy so important to this game in a way the devs never intended, to DPS down bosses at rates the devs never intended.

Lol haha this one is good.

CoF is just the consequence of lazy dungeon design. A.Net clearly had not time left for all the dungeons. That’s why we have CoE, CoF and HoW, they all have nice settings but most of the fights there are just dull and boring.

kokiman.2364:

bewhatever.2390:

That some very creative players found a way to use the synergy so important to this game in a way the devs never intended, to DPS down bosses at rates the devs never intended.

Lol haha this one is good.

CoF is just the consequence of lazy dungeon design. A.Net clearly had not time left for all the dungeons. That’s why we have CoE, CoF and HoW, they all have nice settings but most of the fights there are just dull and boring.

People use the word lazy a lot. Running out of time for something, so you have to make it fast is NOT the same as being lazy.

Lazy dungeon design is when you have all the time in the world and put no effort into it.

Well, do you believe me there are actually ways to make cof comparible gold by doing other dungeon?

I dont’ mind cof getting nerf, but it is just my opinion is people will just move on to the “next most efficient run”.

You see what happened after the pent/shelter dynamic event nerf. People just move onto the next most profitable event.

People will always farm the same dungeon and same area which is most efficient for gold.

laokoko.7403:

Well, do you believe me there are actually ways to make cof comparible gold by doing other dungeon?

I dont’ mind cof getting nerf, but it is just my opinion is people will just move on to the “next most efficient run”.

You see what happened after the pent/shelter dynamic event nerf. People just move onto the next most profitable event.

People will always farm the same dungeon and same area which is most efficient for gold.

And then they complain that the game is boring and grindy

Wait a second lazy design?

There are several different mechanics in this path, where i dont think they were lazy.
it is just that the path is really short and a good damage group is easily able to wittle down every obstancle.
i mean, what do we even have there?

a turret obstancle
the slavedriver
the acolytes
the roling stones
the door mechanism
endboss

all of them arent that dangerous (maybe the acolytes, because thats where most die if they dont know how to evade), however half of them are different designs from just rofl-stomping everything.

Aside from the boss and slavedriver, there is no damage sponge, or special timed mechanic (where you have to act in intervalls to do damage), which stopps these groups, thus making them very efficient.

Overall, the dungeon isnt that “lazy”, however i just guess they didnt make the “obstancles” hard enough to be called that.

With a nerf like in Ascalon things should balance out i guess. AC path 1 can be very frustrating thanks to the kicking skelks and the dieing NPCs, if you dont know how to hadle the masses.
So hopefully something similiar happens here, that enhances the experience, instead of dumbing it down.

kokiman.2364:

bewhatever.2390:

That some very creative players found a way to use the synergy so important to this game in a way the devs never intended, to DPS down bosses at rates the devs never intended.

Lol haha this one is good.

CoF is just the consequence of lazy dungeon design. A.Net clearly had not time left for all the dungeons. That’s why we have CoE, CoF and HoW, they all have nice settings but most of the fights there are just dull and boring.

did you even learn the mechanics to CoE? Or are you one of those people that go to path 2 or 3 with me and shout something very stupid like “all melee the boss!”

I got a Dusk in one of the chests in CoF (the one before the final boss). After that I did a couple more runs and never went there again.

Mirta.5029:

kokiman.2364:

bewhatever.2390:

That some very creative players found a way to use the synergy so important to this game in a way the devs never intended, to DPS down bosses at rates the devs never intended.

Lol haha this one is good.

CoF is just the consequence of lazy dungeon design. A.Net clearly had not time left for all the dungeons. That’s why we have CoE, CoF and HoW, they all have nice settings but most of the fights there are just dull and boring.

did you even learn the mechanics to CoE? Or are you one of those people that go to path 2 or 3 with me and shout something very stupid like “all melee the boss!”

Oh yeah, I did all paths the “proper” way and everytime we reached the “it was fun for the first time but you are starting to overuse it” laser jumping part I just felt that everything was copy pasted with some small changes.
I, myself, enjoy doing dungeons the normal way but sometimes you are just forced to do what the rest of the group wants and seeing how extremly easy it gets with stuff like “staying always in meelerange of alpha” is kinda weird for me because I always thought those fights are challenging.

For me there are two problems with the current situation:

1: The path is very easy and too short – if you compare it with other explorable paths. I still find the design interesting but in this one case they underdone it. Especially the last boss should be more challenging.

2: All other paths of all dungeons (except cof 2) are too long and difficult. Ok, that last sentence is to catch your attention. What I really mean is: There should not be one uniform length and difficulty grade. When I get home from work I am in the mood for a short easy dungeon experience before dinner. This niche is now filled perfectly by cof 1. When ArenaNet reworks cof 1 (and may be 2) I would be grateful if they introduced “casual dungeons” at the same time. Easy 10 minute experiences. It is ok if I get only 15/5 tokens and 10 silver from it. But it would help the casual part of the player base a lot. On weekends I could tackle the grown-up versions then.

Now for me it is casual paradise but from a more distant view cof 1 is too good to be true

kokiman.2364:

Mirta.5029:

kokiman.2364:

bewhatever.2390:

That some very creative players found a way to use the synergy so important to this game in a way the devs never intended, to DPS down bosses at rates the devs never intended.

Lol haha this one is good.

CoF is just the consequence of lazy dungeon design. A.Net clearly had not time left for all the dungeons. That’s why we have CoE, CoF and HoW, they all have nice settings but most of the fights there are just dull and boring.

did you even learn the mechanics to CoE? Or are you one of those people that go to path 2 or 3 with me and shout something very stupid like “all melee the boss!”

Oh yeah, I did all paths the “proper” way and everytime we reached the “it was fun for the first time but you are starting to overuse it” laser jumping part I just felt that everything was copy pasted with some small changes.
I, myself, enjoy doing dungeons the normal way but sometimes you are just forced to do what the rest of the group wants and seeing how extremly easy it gets with stuff like “staying always in meelerange of alpha” is kinda weird for me because I always thought those fights are challenging.

if all melees alpha on path 2 or 3, you’re all going to die. It’s all about the aoe’s and it’s really hard to teach the pugs how not to wipe on it. I don’t think that CoE’s design can be called lazy, especially when most people don’t know how to beat this boss without a) dodging and mixing all aoe circles up b) not stacking and not wiping, due to being able to understand the aoe’s that alpha does.

Mirta.5029:

if all melees alpha on path 2 or 3, you’re all going to die. It’s all about the aoe’s and it’s really hard to teach the pugs how not to wipe on it. I don’t think that CoE’s design can be called lazy, especially when most people don’t know how to beat this boss without a) dodging and mixing all aoe circles up b) not stacking and not wiping, due to being able to understand the aoe’s that alpha does.

Yeah, you are right. You can only meele P1 and while doing the fights in P2 and P3 for the first time and noticing for example that those aoe’s are donuts and only 1 specific aoe ring deals dmg was kinda cool but then again you have 3 paths and in those 3 paths you always fight against alpha.

Mirta.5029:

if all melees alpha on path 2 or 3, you’re all going to die. It’s all about the aoe’s and it’s really hard to teach the pugs how not to wipe on it. I don’t think that CoE’s design can be called lazy, especially when most people don’t know how to beat this boss without a) dodging and mixing all aoe circles up b) not stacking and not wiping, due to being able to understand the aoe’s that alpha does.

are you serious? I very seldomly do path 2 or 3, both well under 50 runs, but I’ve never even considered NOT meeleeing alpha and it was only hard the first few times. his attacks are so very predictable, you just have to find the dodge-rythm, it’s not black magic or anything..

I know, the circles have different effects (double circle with ice in them, double circle ice growing, or one circle) but what does that help me? the boss still takes a lot longer if everybody ranges him. if someone does go down despite having only his circle without any visual confusion, you can’t ress him because the group is way too much spread out and if not at least 2 people ress, they won’t finish before the next attack lands. when meeleeing, you always have enough people nearby to ress if someone misses a dodge.
saying people who know how and when to dodge don’t know how to beat a dungeon is pretty ignorant. sorry you can’t do it, it’s probably better if you stay ranged, but please, don’t tell everyone to play easymode just because you can’t handle a few timed dodges.

as for the topic. it’s interesting how people like to call CoF speedfarming an exploit. it’s been made very clear it’s no exploit. it might not be intended and could be changed, but please read up on the terminology.

instead of creating a ‘buhuu, everyone is running cof p1 speedfarming and I’m too lazy to create a char to do the same’ topic everyday, why don’t you guys try to figure out why people even do speedfarm? especially as a lot of people do it while not finding it fun. it’s because money is not so easy to come by but very much needed for anything and everything. ANet made a grindy game. now people grind, big surprise. if they didn’t want them to grind, removing all the farmspots won’t do it, removing the reasons to grind though might.

Oranisagu.3706:

are you serious? I very seldomly do path 2 or 3, both well under 50 runs, but I’ve never even considered NOT meeleeing alpha and it was only hard the first few times. his attacks are so very predictable, you just have to find the dodge-rythm, it’s not black magic or anything..

I know, the circles have different effects (double circle with ice in them, double circle ice growing, or one circle) but what does that help me? the boss still takes a lot longer if everybody ranges him.

stop right there, where do I say that EVERYONE ranges? The one with ice aoe ranges and all the ones with rock corona stack. If anyone goes down the aoe’s change. If anyone dodges they mix up the lines of rock corona aoe. If everyone stacks ice aoe kills you.

Oranisagu.3706:

saying people who know how and when to dodge don’t know how to beat a dungeon is pretty ignorant. sorry you can’t do it, it’s probably better if you stay ranged, but please, don’t tell everyone to play easymode just because you can’t handle a few timed dodges.

I do appreciate you attacking me for being a “bad” player, when I can complete the boss without dodging. Also guess what? Only a warrior can spec for infinite dodge. If you can’t decipher aoe’s and have to waste dodges I pity you.

Oranisagu.3706:

instead of creating a ‘buhuu, everyone is running cof p1 speedfarming and I’m too lazy to create a char to do the same’ topic everyday, why don’t you guys try to figure out why people even do speedfarm? especially as a lot of people do it while not finding it fun. it’s because money is not so easy to come by but very much needed for anything and everything.

farming CoE or Arah can bring in so much more profit.

Oranisagu.3706:

ANet made a grindy game. now people grind, big surprise.

Because being able to buy end game gear with dailies and karma is what grindy games do! Oh wait… Try keeping up with raids in WoW. try getting gear when only one piece drops in a run and you’re competing for it with 20 other people. Try killing hundreds of mobs just to complete one quest. Try doing 3000 quests to go up 10 levels. That’s grindy. You don’t know what grindy is.

Mirta.5029:

if all melees alpha on path 2 or 3, you’re all going to die.

ROFL… I mean… HAHAHAHA… I mean… AHAHAHAHAHAHA…

But I digress, the issue isn’t as much CoF1 as it is the warrior/mesmer party setup. Coming from someone who leveled a warrior to 80 purely for farming, the setup is just insanely versatile and strong. Warrior is simple to use at a level to speedrun with little drawback. CoF1, SE1,3, HotW1, CoE1-3, all easy to do with that setup.

Kirbyprime.2645:

Mirta.5029:

if all melees alpha on path 2 or 3, you’re all going to die.

ROFL… I mean… HAHAHAHA… I mean… AHAHAHAHAHAHA…

I see a certain someone that didn’t bother learning bosses mechanics and is wasting dodges!

Mirta.5029:

Kirbyprime.2645:

Mirta.5029:

if all melees alpha on path 2 or 3, you’re all going to die.

ROFL… I mean… HAHAHAHA… I mean… AHAHAHAHAHAHA…

I see a certain someone that didn’t bother learning bosses mechanics and is wasting dodges!

If you don’t know the tricks of ice vs not ice in 4war/1mes CoE parties then really, you have a lot more to learn.

Kirbyprime.2645:

Mirta.5029:

Kirbyprime.2645:

Mirta.5029:

if all melees alpha on path 2 or 3, you’re all going to die.

ROFL… I mean… HAHAHAHA… I mean… AHAHAHAHAHAHA…

I see a certain someone that didn’t bother learning bosses mechanics and is wasting dodges!

If you don’t know the tricks of ice vs not ice in 4war/1mes CoE parties then really, you have a lot more to learn.

so because I allow all people to do the content and don’t restrict myself into a warr/mes role I’m playing the game wrong? It’s easy to do properly on all classes and doesn’t need to be tricked at all. How hard is it for one person to stay ranged?

Kirbyprime.2645:

Mirta.5029:

Kirbyprime.2645:

Mirta.5029:

if all melees alpha on path 2 or 3, you’re all going to die.

ROFL… I mean… HAHAHAHA… I mean… AHAHAHAHAHAHA…

I see a certain someone that didn’t bother learning bosses mechanics and is wasting dodges!

If you don’t know the tricks of ice vs not ice in 4war/1mes CoE parties then really, you have a lot more to learn.

Sorry, I don’t like to run dungeons with only warriors and a mesmer. I like to run dungeons with people that enjoy running dungeons and not elitist idiots.

I’m sorry that you think people learning the actual boss mechanics need to learn “tricks” to beat the dungeons but honestly, I wouldn’t want you in my group because you’d probably be a liability.

Isnt this about Citadel of Flame? I dont believe the intent was to make fotm a money making dungeon, imagine money on top of ascended gear and unique skins. wayyyy to OP. They are fine, other classes can do it too

Oranisagu.3706:

instead of creating a ‘buhuu, everyone is running cof p1 speedfarming and I’m too lazy to create a char to do the same’ topic everyday, why don’t you guys try to figure out why people even do speedfarm? especially as a lot of people do it while not finding it fun. it’s because money is not so easy to come by but very much needed for anything and everything. ANet made a grindy game. now people grind, big surprise. if they didn’t want them to grind, removing all the farmspots won’t do it, removing the reasons to grind though might.

-Not creating a character just to farm CoF 1 isn’t only NOT lazy, but wise, especially when I know the playstyle doesn’t suit me and I would be bored to tears joining that “system.” Never mind that such a thing may be deleted in the future (wasted slot for a character that I didn’t enjoy playing, just made to farm something I can’t farm anymore.) Who gives you the right to call people “lazy” because they won’t farm CoF 1 the way you do?

-There’s no reason to grind in this game-it’s a burden you placed over yourself. No one needs Legendaries, and Ascended items were mostly created FOR the grinders (and may thus be ignored.) You want the Legendary or other expensive items for whatever reason (which IS fine, BTW) and that’s why you grind. Some people don’t grind at all, and just play the game normally, losing zero sleep over not getting the Legendary they may want now or in the next few days. You want the Quiver(whichever version)? You may need to grind a bit, but you don’t certainly need it-you just want it.

Please take no offense, as I did not mean to attack you, but really, any grind people do in this game is self-inflicted. You don’t need CoF 1 for money, and not even for a Legendary UNLESS you want it ASAP, which you don’t really need-it’s a personal want, not a need, therefore it’s not required grind unless you require it of yourself. The game is utterly playable without any and all of the “grind-required” items-high level Fractals being the exception, but then again I assume those players who enjoy them are prepared to embrace that kind of grind.

There are skins that are actually nicer than the Legendaries for many, and some are not going for any Legendary at all until one that is aesthetically pleasing to them is added in the future. Not everyone in this game plays just for a Legendary (or two, or three…) or to have a full set of 6 fully infused Ascended trinkets on each of their alts (that isn’t necessarily wrong, but it’s not the one way to play GW2; therefore, the grind is optional.)

I am actually going for the Quiver for my Warrior, and plan to get a few more Ascended trinkets along the way, but I don’t feel this grind that many people see, because I don’t care for having things right now-I’ll just keep playing, and in time I’ll have all the things I’ve worked hard over time to achieve. No need to burn myself out over things I don’t really need, but that just are nice to have.

And I don’t care (nor go "boo-hoo!) if you farm CoF1, as I said before, as long as you understand that it’s a personal choice-I don’t see any CoF 1 speed farmer as a “superior player” by any stretch of the imagination. Just watch youtube, copy and paste, practice and memorize. There aren’t any difficult skills to master-just using the gear, weapons, and builds to farm it, coupled with recycled strategies somebody else devised to save time. No offense intended to farmers-farm all you want, it’s your life, and you choose how to play on your account-if it’s fun to you, just go ahead and enjoy yourselves.

There are other ways not named CoF 1 to make money, and that are probably more fun, BTW. They may not be as efficient, but who cares for “efficiency” if it becomes a chore?

Mirta.5029:

Kirbyprime.2645:

Mirta.5029:

Kirbyprime.2645:

Mirta.5029:

if all melees alpha on path 2 or 3, you’re all going to die.

ROFL… I mean… HAHAHAHA… I mean… AHAHAHAHAHAHA…

I see a certain someone that didn’t bother learning bosses mechanics and is wasting dodges!

If you don’t know the tricks of ice vs not ice in 4war/1mes CoE parties then really, you have a lot more to learn.

so because I allow all people to do the content and don’t restrict myself into a warr/mes role I’m playing the game wrong? It’s easy to do properly on all classes and doesn’t need to be tricked at all. How hard is it for one person to stay ranged?

Perhaps I came on too harsh. My only answer is that having the entire party melee’ing Alpha in 2/3 (without even wasting dodges even!) is possible and for some parties faster.

Can all parties do so? No, same reason why you don’t see every pug doing 4war/1mes parties melee’ing Lupi even though it’s been youtubed as possible and much faster. However, since as you have said, warriors have enough dodges to not care, hence it’s a moot point.

And to tie it back to the actual topic. My reasoning is that CoF1 isn’t the heart of the problem, while other party variations can complete CoF1 in a similar time, it’s nothing special compared to something like SE1. The issue is that the 4war/1mes archtype can so easily trivialize so many different dungeons. Many strategies can be negated because as long as you can DPS down the encounter before the danger comes, then it’s fine. CoE p2/3 Alpha fights are examples of this.

Simply put, as others have stated already, if CoF1 is nerfed, which I hope you don’t misunderstand, I WANT nerfed, everyone, myself included, will move onto the next dungeon path and still exclude all other classes because they’re just not as fast.

EDIT: For the record, I main an elementalist. I have dungeon master on my Ele as well as FOTM40+.

All good points!

grifflyman.8102:

Interesting topic going on over at Reddit, basically discussing how CoF speed runs make a mockery of every other fractal/dungeon in the game in terms of rewards and gold/hour possibilities.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/1d0p09/high_level_fractals_and_the_loot_joy_and_sighs/

What do you think?

Moot point. CoF does not need nerfing at all. It’s a dungeon being run at high efficiency with the most balanced set of builds and characters available. End of story.
Nerf that, and we will find a way to cut Hotw, Coe and SE to a fraction of the time it takes to complete them. And then what? You will want a nerf on those dungeons too?

Let me ask you this, do we need to make the track longer every time Usain Bolt beats his best time? Because this is the same logic being applied to CoF.

I haven’t been able to run CoF speed runs because I’m lacking a full set of zerk gear. I’m also not saying it’s a bad thing, but it’s currently the most effective way to make gold and it requires a certain class/spec/armor set.

laokoko.7403:

Even if they nerf cof, people will just move to the next best farm dungeon.

We see what happen when they nerf pent/shelter. People just move to the next best farm spot.

The part where players are farming for “gold” is what cause the behavior. You don’t see it much in other game because people are farming for unique loot specific for the dungeon. Take for example, I still do fractal time to time because I want rings or backpiece for my alt. But the other dungeon I really don’t do it unless I’m bored of farming.

I agree. In GW1, there are ecto farm or mats farm but I can say people run dungeons mostly for the unique chest drop. There was also no farm that gives pure gold.

Fractal is better designed than other dungeons in GW2. In terms of mechanics and loot. I think the fractal weapon is done well but they can also put them in the merchant for huge amount of currency. But overall, all dungeons should have something like fractal weapons.

Cof can be run in 6.5 minutes. I doubt very much you’d be able to cut something like CoE down to 6.5 minutes. Right now, it’s making a lot of people a lot of money, if they have the desire to farm. You might see this as okay…but there are a couple of problems with this.

When a small group of players get rich a whole lot faster than everyone else, they tend to more or less set the price for high end items, because they can afford them. It puts those items out of reach of most of the player base, who then can’t access those items. People become frustrated and leave the game.

The other problem is that people become bored doing the same thing, even though they’re the ones forcing themselves to do it. Many just burn out and stop playing, because that’s all they do. Farm. For some people this can be maintained indefinitely, but for others it can’t. Again players are lost.

Simply put, if one option is so much better than all the others then it’s what people will do. But if there are two or three options, all of which take say 12 minutes instead of 6.5, people will gravitate to different options.

Right now, the difference berween CoF path one and any other dungeon is so large in time, that it’s a no brainer and people will just run that.

At least with more options, more people farming more things, you’ll end up with less people getting completely bored, and you’ll end up with a slightly slower acquisition of gold.

The difference between a 6.5 minute run and a 12 minute run is huge.

grifflyman.8102:

I haven’t been able to run CoF speed runs because I’m lacking a full set of zerk gear. I’m also not saying it’s a bad thing, but it’s currently the most effective way to make gold and it requires a certain class/spec/armor set.

You can easily obtain zerk gear by running CoF P1 as a non speed run, then P2.
p1 1st run = 60 tokens
p1 2nd run = 30 tokens
p2 1st run = 60 tokens
p2 3nd run = 30 tokens
Total = 180 tokens
Weekly tokens – 1260
Add 1 day = 1440
Full 80 Exo Set cost – 1380
[Edited: Since i counted p3 but never listed it here. Less tokens]
You have 60 tokens to spare.

Where’s the issue? 0 Gold spent on armor and you have your set.
Run for another 3 days and you have a weapon.

Patience is indeed a virtue here. That’s how i put clothes on theback of my warrior and thief. Just mindlessly running CoF day by day.

Didn’t they state a long time ago that they were planing on adding unique loot tables to dungeons?

I’ve been away for the last 4 months, but I remember something being said about this.

grifflyman.8102:

Didn’t they state a long time ago that they were planing on adding unique loot tables to dungeons?

I’ve been away for the last 4 months, but I remember something being said about this.

Some do have unique tables, like the charr backwarmer, or the ghostly back piece….which basically show nothing…

But I think this is really the root of the problem, the other dungeon’s loot tables are just meh. Heck, I got tired of running AC because of all the Garlic Bread I got from chests.

I believe the reason Anet has these drop rates so incredibly low is to compensate for the fact that there is not enough gear in the game yet to give you something cooler looking/better every single fractal level. If you could get a new reward cooler and better looking, every level, or even every 5 levels. Anet would need to come up with a lot more items to give you that dont exist in the game yet.

There are only so many items in the game, which is where i believe this game lacks compared to other mmos.

Berserker gear is like the only option to get, and even if you decide not to get a berserker piece, it looks exactly the same. The game needs more different looking gear.

So if there are more items in the game as a total, the drop rate will increase, because there will be more “eligible” items in the drop rate pool.

Nothing wrong with them in itself. It’s not their fault that the game has such crappy drop rates and DR. It’s also not their fault that dungeons are uninspired in many cases.

Thus some people have to maximize the use of their time.

The loot from Dragon Chests is a start in the right direction, now if only more areas of the game actually gave you loot, people would look elsewhere.

When you nerf the open world and discourage playing it, what did you expect? When you introduce awards (ascended) that can’t be gained by playing the open world, what did you expect? When you make any challenging boss just kill you near instantly, forcing you to dodge anyways, and making only offensive gear helpful, what did you expect? Oh sure, you can get them indirectly from laurels, but still. Meanwhile bots are just laughing and teleporting to mining nodes.

The problem isn’t that those runs exist. The problem is that it confines the majority of the game’s rewards to a small portion of the game. Which is bad.

I enjoy running CoF-P1, it just so happens to be a great gold maker as well. If I did not enjoy it I would not run it, nerf or no.

Vayne.8563:

Simply put, if one option is so much better than all the others then it’s what people will do. But if there are two or three options, all of which take say 12 minutes instead of 6.5, people will gravitate to different options.

The difference between a 6.5 minute run and a 12 minute run is huge.

I dont’ think people will gravitate to different options. Even if it is only a few second longer or a few silver better, people will always choose to same option. Not only that, people will naturaly gather together to do the same dungeon without spreading out. Just to make it easier to find party.

And I was actually chatting/arguing/debating with another guy who said he can farm another dungeon path and make similar money to cof. And it isn’t even a whole dungeon, it is just some boss in the beginning part of the dungeon.

That being said, how do you even know all other dungeon path take 12 minutes long to do?

And the whole part about people getting rich by farming cof? Actually no you can get similar gold doing orr. Not only that, the only way to become super rich in this game is by playing the TP. Even if you grind 10 hours a day that is only 50 gold. If you flipped a super greatsword skin you already made 50 gold in 1 second. But the problem with flipping is you need to already have some cash to do it.

I think nerfing cof may be ok to make it take longer by a few min. But that being said I don’t think it’ll change the mentality people will always gather to do the same dungeon which is the most efficient. which ever that is.

kokiman.2364:

laokoko.7403:

Well, do you believe me there are actually ways to make cof comparible gold by doing other dungeon?

I dont’ mind cof getting nerf, but it is just my opinion is people will just move on to the “next most efficient run”.

You see what happened after the pent/shelter dynamic event nerf. People just move onto the next most profitable event.

People will always farm the same dungeon and same area which is most efficient for gold.

And then they complain that the game is boring and grindy

Because all “good” gears(skin) are based on gold(farming), not based on skill/cooperation(hard dungeon like raid).

RageQuit.5687:

grifflyman.8102:

Interesting topic going on over at Reddit, basically discussing how CoF speed runs make a mockery of every other fractal/dungeon in the game in terms of rewards and gold/hour possibilities.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/1d0p09/high_level_fractals_and_the_loot_joy_and_sighs/

What do you think?

Moot point. CoF does not need nerfing at all. It’s a dungeon being run at high efficiency with the most balanced set of builds and characters available. End of story.
Nerf that, and we will find a way to cut Hotw, Coe and SE to a fraction of the time it takes to complete them. And then what? You will want a nerf on those dungeons too?

Let me ask you this, do we need to make the track longer every time Usain Bolt beats his best time? Because this is the same logic being applied to CoF.

The answer to all of your questions is (including Usain Bolt’s), yes, if it isn’t what the developer’s intended, like it or not. Nerf them all so none can be exploited as easily. Make them work a bit harder for what they want, since nobody needs a Legendary in a week, anyway (no offense intended.)

There’s no skill involved in this party setup, it’s just a farming system. I certainly don’t think a player that started to play a month ago is “uber” because he/she dual wields Incinerators-he/she most likely farmed CoF 1 all over those weeks as soon as he/she hit 80 (and BTW, that is OK-a player’s choice to do that, and I have nothing against it UNLESS the player think he/she is suddenly “better than the noobs/baddies” for having copied and pasted a farming system for an easily exploitable Dungeon path.)

I am not against farming, but more in favor of rebalancing all Dungeon paths,; I also am for anything that will encourage players to party together with any sort of party rather than just direct-damage maximized ones. It’s up to the developers to find a balance where this practice runs out of flavor over time, though it’s so ingrained in many player’s minds, that I don’t think the “zerk curse” will ever go away at this point (not that Berserker’s gear itself is bad, but the attitude that it’s the only way to play is.)

Tisler.6297:

kokiman.2364:

laokoko.7403:

Well, do you believe me there are actually ways to make cof comparible gold by doing other dungeon?

I dont’ mind cof getting nerf, but it is just my opinion is people will just move on to the “next most efficient run”.

You see what happened after the pent/shelter dynamic event nerf. People just move onto the next most profitable event.

People will always farm the same dungeon and same area which is most efficient for gold.

And then they complain that the game is boring and grindy

Because all “good” gears(skin) are based on gold(farming), not based on skill/cooperation(hard dungeon like raid).

so wearing full Arah set is something based on money? Funny, I never thought you could buy difficult dungeon skins, I thought you actually needed to run the dungeon.

They don’t need to make cof harder..what they need to do is reward you more for other dungeons like coe which requires more time/skill.

It’s the dungeon designers fault for allowing us to skip near half the dungeon mechanics by cheesing, so one can only assume it is all intended. Speed runs are fine, let people that want to farm do so because everything else in the game is unrewarding as hell.

Maybe they should take a hint on that… either better loot in open world or better rewards for finishing an event. Possible wooden chest, or idk maybe more than lol2silver? I spend over that much on each waypoint alone… so sad.

Guarantee if the bridge in CoF was actually rewarding to complete, people would do it. But like I said… a whole 2 silver for spending a lot of time on those mobs just isn’t.

Mathias.9657:

It’s the dungeon designers fault for allowing us to skip near half the dungeon mechanics by cheesing, so one can only assume it is all intended. Speed runs are fine, let people that want to farm do so because everything else in the game is unrewarding as hell.

Maybe they should take a hint on that… either better loot in open world or better rewards for finishing an event. Possible wooden chest, or idk maybe more than lol2silver? I spend over that much on each waypoint alone… so sad.

Guarantee if the bridge in CoF was actually rewarding to complete, people would do it. But like I said… a whole 2 silver for spending a lot of time on those mobs just isn’t.

well every alpha encounter in CoE plus the extra boss gives you about 10-15 silver. The harder the dungeon the more rewarding encounters are.
Now about pve – you earn about 6 gold for finishing a high level zone ( 60 to 80) because it will grant you exotics that you’ll be able to sell. World boss events now guarantee you at least 1 rare, sometimes I get up to 3. That’s about 70 silver. There’s plenty rewarding if you ask me.

laokoko.7403:

Vayne.8563:

Simply put, if one option is so much better than all the others then it’s what people will do. But if there are two or three options, all of which take say 12 minutes instead of 6.5, people will gravitate to different options.

The difference between a 6.5 minute run and a 12 minute run is huge.

I dont’ think people will gravitate to different options. Even if it is only a few second longer or a few silver better, people will always choose to same option. Not only that, people will naturaly gather together to do the same dungeon without spreading out. Just to make it easier to find party.

And I was actually chatting/arguing/debating with another guy who said he can farm another dungeon path and make similar money to cof. And it isn’t even a whole dungeon, it is just some boss in the beginning part of the dungeon.

That being said, how do you even know all other dungeon path take 12 minutes long to do?

And the whole part about people getting rich by farming cof? Actually no you can get similar gold doing orr. Not only that, the only way to become super rich in this game is by playing the TP. Even if you grind 10 hours a day that is only 50 gold. If you flipped a super greatsword skin you already made 50 gold in 1 second. But the problem with flipping is you need to already have some cash to do it.

I think nerfing cof may be ok to make it take longer by a few min. But that being said I don’t think it’ll change the mentality people will always gather to do the same dungeon which is the most efficient. which ever that is.

My point is, if it’s not so clear cut, people will go to do different things. One guy may make a dungeon that you can run very fast and get 12 minutes. Another guy may get 12.5 minutes on another dungeon. Are you telling me most people care that much? Most people won’t switch those out, just to have something else that’s different.

There are a few hard core farmers that will ONLY run the fastest period. I don’t refer to those people. But I know for a fact that before the AC upgrade, people were running it for money and it took quite a bit longer than CoF path 1.

Its bad for the game in the longer term picture when anything can be speed farmed.

Nothing wrong with it if that is what players want to run for gold.

If there was a way to get a precursor without RNG or having to farm up gold for that expensive precursor on the TP, people wouldn’t need to run CoF so much.

Even then, other suff costs quite a bit of gold so if you want a full t3 culture set, it will cost.

I run CoF from time to time because that is a quick way to make some gold so I can go buy siege. I don’t make that much in WvW so I have to PvE and I’d rather not have to deal with another dungeon. I do not think they are fun in this game but CoF is tolerable. It wasn’t until recently that new equipement was added for WvW purchase, but before I had to farm something to get my gear.

If this dungeon gets nerfed, another dungeon will take it’s place.

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

If there was a way to get a precursor without RNG or having to farm up gold for that expensive precursor on the TP, people wouldn’t need to run CoF so much.

Even then, other suff costs quite a bit of gold so if you want a full t3 culture set, it will cost.

Thing is, you don’t need the precursor nor T3 armor, much less the Legendary. You just want them ASAP. Nothing wrong with that, but what you want doesn’t make the game bad (“grindy”), because the game doesn’t really requires it at all.

(I also do not like the way we are supposed to get precursors, BTW. I do not agree with the design just because the luck required is quite extreme, indeed making buying them outright the more feasible option. The prices are inflated-people are ripping each other off. HOWEVER, I don’t care enough to farm gold for its own sake, if by doing so I have to sacrifice everything else I value in the game-playing at my own pace, having fun, excluding all chore-like activities. This is why I am not worrying that much, and am just waiting for the time in which they will add to the game a fairer way to get our precursors-if that time ever comes.)

I played GW1 without ever getting “prestige” armor-I just didn’t care enough for the skins vs the required grind, and the stats were the same (plus I did like my starter armor skin on my Monk.) Eventually I did get a more affordable Norn set, which became my alternate “smiting” set (I kept my classic armor for healing/prot duties). I didn’t feel less of a player because I didn’t have the cool skins everyone else craved for. The game was fun for its own sake without them-and it is very much the same in here, to be honest with you, at least in my case-100% true story.

I wonder why people feel they are not “up to par” if they are not dual-wielding Legendaries? This restless desire for pseudo-prestige can on many occasions burn out a few players out of the game. To be honest, it’s so much fun to play without being concerned about your favorite Legendary weapon, just enjoying what the game offers vs just wanting to be like your “uber” friend/guildie with the cool Legendary-which is hardly unique at this point with all the farming on steroids going on.

In short, take it easy and enjoy GW2 for what it is, rather than for what “you are supposed to get” as an “endgame.” Legendaries can be nice, but certainly don’t make or break the game, don’t make you a superior player by wielding them (I have indeed experienced the contrary), and don’t mean anything in the long run, unless you just love them on your favorite character.

If all I cared for in GW2 was getting the Legendaries ASAP, of course the game will be grindy! But why should I needlessly punish myself in such fashion? Even playing normally I may one day get the Legendary-it just takes a whole lot longer, but what’s the rush? Once you don’t care about getting it as fast as “everybody else” seems to be getting it, the grind utterly disappears-there’s no grind required to enjoy GW2’s universe.

I do not mean to offend those who daily farm for their favorite Legendary-it’s a cool choice, but please do not accuse the game of being a grind-fest, when in reality you are making it so for yourself by wanting it ASAP!

I think it’s important to take a positive stance on this one. If they just take away players’ money maker without having others in place, it will upset a lot of peoples. Some players may not like the fact that CoF is ran over and over, but it helps people towards their goals. That’s what keeps players playing. Given that perspective, I don’t think they should nerf CoF at all, but make the other dungeons as profitable.

Star Ace.5207:

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

If there was a way to get a precursor without RNG or having to farm up gold for that expensive precursor on the TP, people wouldn’t need to run CoF so much.

Even then, other suff costs quite a bit of gold so if you want a full t3 culture set, it will cost.

Thing is, you don’t need the precursor nor T3 armor, much less the Legendary. You just want them ASAP. Nothing wrong with that, but what you want doesn’t make the game bad (“grindy”), because the game doesn’t really requires it at all.

(I also do not like the way we are supposed to get precursors, BTW. I do not agree with the design just because the luck required is quite extreme, indeed making buying them outright the more feasible option. The prices are inflated-people are ripping each other off. HOWEVER, I don’t care enough to farm gold for its own sake, if by doing so I have to sacrifice everything else I value in the game-playing at my own pace, having fun, excluding all chore-like activities. This is why I am not worrying that much, and am just waiting for the time in which they will add to the game a fairer way to get our precursors-if that time ever comes.)

I played GW1 without ever getting “prestige” armor-I just didn’t care enough for the skins vs the required grind, and the stats were the same (plus I did like my starter armor skin on my Monk.) Eventually I did get a more affordable Norn set, which became my alternate “smiting” set (I kept my classic armor for healing/prot duties). I didn’t feel less of a player because I didn’t have the cool skins everyone else craved for. The game was fun for its own sake without them-and it is very much the same in here, to be honest with you, at least in my case-100% true story.

I wonder why people feel they are not “up to par” if they are not dual-wielding Legendaries? This restless desire for pseudo-prestige can on many occasions burn out a few players out of the game. To be honest, it’s so much fun to play without being concerned about your favorite Legendary weapon, just enjoying what the game offers vs just wanting to be like your “uber” friend/guildie with the cool Legendary-which is hardly unique at this point with all the farming on steroids going on.

In short, take it easy and enjoy GW2 for what it is, rather than for what “you are supposed to get” as an “endgame.” Legendaries can be nice, but certainly don’t make or break the game, don’t make you a superior player by wielding them (I have indeed experienced the contrary), and don’t mean anything in the long run, unless you just love them on your favorite character.

If all I cared for in GW2 was getting the Legendaries ASAP, of course the game will be grindy! But why should I needlessly punish myself in such fashion? Even playing normally I may one day get the Legendary-it just takes a whole lot longer, but what’s the rush? Once you don’t care about getting it as fast as “everybody else” seems to be getting it, the grind utterly disappears-there’s no grind required to enjoy GW2’s universe.

I do not mean to offend those who daily farm for their favorite Legendary-it’s a cool choice, but please do not accuse the game of being a grind-fest, when in reality you are making it so for yourself by wanting it ASAP!

Who cares.

Thing is, people want those items, CoF is the best gold to time spent, precursors are stupid pricey, T3 armor is also expensive.

People are going to run what gives the best gold to time for the stuff they want.

What I listed is what costs so much that people are willing to grind CoF till their eyes bleed and do that some more.

Any change to CoF to make it slower than a different dungeon will just shift the grind.