Guild Wars 2

I disagree with roles adding depth to combat. The combat itself simply needs reworking. But I have to say, I love how GW2 did their dungeons. Every man for himself, where individual player skill matters. No more running in a raid and calling yourself skilled because the tank was awesome, healer was well geared or both. If you suck- it shows. And all you can do is make excuses as to why you dying a lot is the game’s fault and not yours.

No, I’d like to see more combat mechanics in fights, maybe harder combat… But there are already so many games with role based party play, let those of us who enjoy the gw2 style keep this.

Hell, we already lost our gear plateau in favor of a treadmill. Let us keep SOMETHING unique.

People acting like this game is all skill based and games with roles are for bad noobs is hilarious.

This game is designed the way it is not for combat complexity, but to discourage group play. Playing solo when your class is tank dps and healer is much easier.

I guess it is a unique system, because there aren’t any other MMO’s that I can think of that actively discourage group play.

I can kind of understand what OP is getting at but I think that Rickets was right as to why:

“The problem isn’t that GW2 has no trinity its that the general MMO population can’t adjust to a different type of gameplay. Once people get out of your type of mindset where; “i dont heal the party because i’m dps” is standard, pugs and groups will succeed far more often and people will have a lot more fun.”

I came from WoW where I played Druid. Alot. I used a feral but mixed talent points so that I could shift quickly into any role, healing, rezzing, tanking or DPSing as necessary. I saved a lot of PuGs from failure in this manner and never played went with a quild except for social/RP. I’d only ever PuG dungeons/raids. One of the reasons I don’t play WoW anymore is that the new talent sytem literally destroyed this style of gameplay.

I think this means that I have a much easier time adjusting to GW2 and enjoy the classses that share this adaptability most readily. Namely a Sylvari Ranger and an engineer, haven’t tried elementalist/mesmer yet and just don’t like heavy armour so haven’t gone for guardian. That said, some of the skills could use some serious tweaking to make different builds more useful in groups. I’d kinda hoped GW2 would approach PvP/PvE in the manner of DC Universe Online and have skills behave differently iin PvP, thereby allowing seperate tweaking.

The only bugbear I have with GW2 combat is the dodging mechanic and universal homing attacks. Can’t help but feel it would be better if melee and some slow magic spells were sidesteppable, requiring aiming and skill on the part of the caster/ attacker. Rapid fire attcks could be immesuarably improved by the ability to strafe or arc them. As it is, if you crit and kill an enemy, the rest of the attack and cooldown is wasted. This would allow targetting to use some bettter mechanics, such as dodge becoming a strafe in a circle around an opponent, rather than a single direction move.

nofo.8469:

People acting like this game is all skill based and games with roles are for bad noobs is hilarious.

This game is designed the way it is not for combat complexity, but to discourage group play. Playing solo when your class is tank dps and healer is much easier.

I guess it is a unique system, because there aren’t any other MMO’s that I can think of that actively discourage group play.

The game isn’t designed to discourage group play, it opens it up. Enabling users to share every combat experience and group event, without cumbersome invites and group finding, is a stroke of genius. I’ve played with people far more in this game than I have in any other barr Firefall which is built around a similar principal.
If you can’t be bothered to help people, that is a failing of your gaming mentality, or a failure of others, not the game. Sure class group skills need some tweaking, the thief for example is almost entirely selfish in it’s healing design, but hopefully GW2 staff will look at that.

That you can solo the games content, doesn’t mean you have to go out of your way to. I find great enjoyment in randomly finding and saving other players from immenant doom. In any other game, this would be a pain in the kitten to accomplish. In GW2 you actually get rewarded for it.

nofo.8469:

People acting like this game is all skill based and games with roles are for bad noobs is hilarious.

This game is designed the way it is not for combat complexity, but to discourage group play. Playing solo when your class is tank dps and healer is much easier.

I guess it is a unique system, because there aren’t any other MMO’s that I can think of that actively discourage group play.

Whereas having 10x more dps than tanks or healers, thus leaving thousands of players with long hours of wait time to do dungeons, if they can at all, somehow encourages group play?

Tolmos.8395:

nofo.8469:

People acting like this game is all skill based and games with roles are for bad noobs is hilarious.

This game is designed the way it is not for combat complexity, but to discourage group play. Playing solo when your class is tank dps and healer is much easier.

I guess it is a unique system, because there aren’t any other MMO’s that I can think of that actively discourage group play.

Whereas having 10x more dps than tanks or healers, thus leaving thousands of players with long hours of wait time to do dungeons, if they can at all, somehow encourages group play?

If someone doesn’t want to play a class that benefits the group or is in over supply, its their fault they don’t get groups.

And yes, relying on your group members to fulfill other roles does encourage group play.

I have never seen a trinity game that doesn’t balance itself out reasonably well because in most social games (read: MMOs) people don’t enjoy not being useful or wanted.

nofo.8469:

Tolmos.8395:

nofo.8469:

People acting like this game is all skill based and games with roles are for bad noobs is hilarious.

This game is designed the way it is not for combat complexity, but to discourage group play. Playing solo when your class is tank dps and healer is much easier.

I guess it is a unique system, because there aren’t any other MMO’s that I can think of that actively discourage group play.

Whereas having 10x more dps than tanks or healers, thus leaving thousands of players with long hours of wait time to do dungeons, if they can at all, somehow encourages group play?

If someone doesn’t want to play a class that benefits the group or is in over supply, its their fault they don’t get groups.

And yes, relying on your group members to fulfill other roles does encourage group play.

I have never seen a trinity game that doesn’t balance itself out reasonably well because in most social games (read: MMOs) people don’t enjoy not being useful or wanted.

In this game being useful and wanted is pretty easy- don’t suck and don’t be a necro =D (I jest on the latter… Kinda)

As a long time healer and tank for near a decade of MMOing, I can say this system is a breath of fresh air. If I feel like I want to play a game with roles, I will log into one. But for now I group just as much with this system and enjoy the personal challenge far more.

It seems we are talking about two different issues. One is that you need xyz slots filled with certain roles, another is a want for the game to allow for more than variations on DPS to be meaningful in the game. I can see the issues with the former, and is not one i argue for.

What i want is for the anything other than DPS DPS DPS to have a impact from the toon side. That i can honestly trade DPS for some other ability and still feel that the build works. Right now, for me at least, it does not. I am not looking for some rubber stamp on each profession to be one of the corners, more that i can shift my position between either of the 3 by changing up the build (or land somewhere in the middle).

But as it stands i feel that anything i trade the DPS points for ends up meaning less than my ability to running in circles.

And i wonder now if that is the main issue. Because anything that will make a stationary defense work will potentially make those that can maintain that perfect circle godlike…

DreamyAbaddon.3265:

@ Oxstar

He clearly said this was in his own opinion and stated that he knows many people wont agree with him. However, with that knowledge in mind, im curious to why make the post in the 1st place?

@Necroseth

There are 100s of games with the Holy Trinity, Tank/Healer/DPS roles.
This is one of the only games that doesn’t work this way in combat. And because of it, It’s only of the reasons why I enjoy GW2’s Combat system soo much. It’s skill based.
You dont need crazy armor or stats to be good. You need good movement and dodge coordination as well as knowing how to Damage/Control/Support with your team.

Roles tend to rely more on Gear based. A Tank needs tanky gear and stats to soak damage. A Damage Dealer needs better gear to focus entirely on damage. A Healer needs to babysit everyone to make sure party doesn’t fail. It’s not my idea of fun.

Here is a link to “GW2 Combat system 101” topic I have https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/GW2-Combat-system-101/page/2#post964534

Hope this will help.

P.S: If playing a different game like this is not your style of game, there are 100s of other games that use the same system im sure you’ll enjoy.

This game is not skill based. If you think so, then you have never played an MMO that takes real skill to play.

Right, I’ve played GW1 for almost 6 years. Now I haven’t once complained about the lack of the ‘holy trinity’ in that game, because it wasn’t needed. There were hundreds of skills you could choose for your build. And hundreds of combinations, since you could have 2 classes. Because of this, you could fit into any role, and you could adjust to any situation a certain mission/dungeon would throw at you.

Unfortunately, I was very dissapointed with the GW2 group system+dungeons. There seems to be no order, no adaptable situations. It all just seems like a huge cluster **** and no one has any idea what’s going on. I understand GW1 worked since you had a huge variety of builds and parties of up to 8 players, but it’s just ridiculous here. I’ve only ever done AC, and I’ve gotten to 80 without touching another dungeon.

Now I’m not asking for the holy trinity like every other boring overplayed MMO, but to see some sort of aggro system, rather than the already, hard hitting mobs, just AoEing your entire team down, respawning, repairing, then dying again. Until you manage to take down 1 group of enemies. I’d like to see tanks, actually be able to tank, rather than put useless points onto defensive traits and skills.

I really wanted to read all thread, but it really derailed badly after the first few posts.

So i’ll answer directly to the OP. What you’re looking for, is already present in the game. You have to bring your friends to understand the “combo” system in the game, it will work wonders with your result and understanding of the combat style of GW2.

An example, i often run with my ranger or elementalist friend. I have an habit of asking them to call water fields, so i can Blast them with the hammer and give area heals to everyone. We have used and abused this and other tactics to provide us with what you feel is lacking: structure and coordination.

They’re now so used to it that when i get my ele alt, it all feels out of place, and i have to “Dragon’s Tooth” the fields to not let them down…

So, TBH, i don’t feel this style “lacking” if properly used as is, instead of asking to be changed back in a style that doesn’t belong to GW2.

For this reason, i don’t feel the need for the trinity either: we can all do all roles with the proper coordination. Do you want “Shield Wall”? Try blasting/leaping a poison field…

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Combo

It’s very easy for battles to become a clusterkitten in GW2. But when you play with an organized group, it can become extremely efficient and rewarding. Trinity limits the clusterkitten-ness, but it also limits the upper skill bound.

Nekroseth.5186:

On a side note. Yesteday, we fought that elite giant in Ascalon, who takes the town.
Ok-ok its only lv 20 but still a good proof why this was a lie.
We go there try him on 3-totall fail.
We ask others and soon we had like 10 players and started dealing some minor dmg atleast.
The boss itself was easy-Aoe fear-Throw boulder (easy to dodge)-linear stomp, harder to avoid but easy to see-

and a nasty stomp that basically leaves you 10% hp dehending on situation.
I was unsure i avoid full dmg because i dodges, or because i was out of range. But it was quite hard to spot the stomp that basically insta gibbed ppl in range, even guardians.
But even still, it would not have been a problem, if we had a SINGLE ANYONE that can atleast heal 10-20% hp somethimes.
But no! There was no class araund that could do that. No Nekro, no mantra mesmer, no shouter warr, nothing. Ok there are no builds early in the game. But dont classes should have -non self heals or support besides traits and 1-2 skills thay happen to have from class?
I mean you sead all classes can do anything. They clearly can not.

Another thing inoticed on boss fight.
Melee is a kittened up “job”. I had 95% biger chance to die when i melee ed.
I basically only popped 3-4 hits and had to roll avay, vanish, shadowstep and so on. And i still needed luck to live.
Range is a lot more revarding and some classes do it better.
Is that just? If we have no “trinity” then why do some classes perform better in some areas?
I should be able to trait to range as thief the same way. I can? Maybe, but propably not with 10 lv outdated weapons……ooo its not gear dephendant? Wait it is not, i can still kill stuff, but like 5 times slower, and have to struggle each fight. When i have decent gear i just sit back and auto attack.

I have killed that very giant with only 1 other player at 2am. We didn’t have teamspeak or vent or any of that. We ran into each other randomly… asked in /say if we wanted to try for a challenge… told each other the basics of what we were going to do and when… and then face rolled that dude with only 2 downs on our side.

Learn your conditions, when to time them… what to use them for.

Learn to use dazes and interrupts…

Learn to watch your opponent and manage your endurance and cooldowns to have what you need up when you see the baddie about pull off a big hit.

Learn to switch out your utilities… not every fight requires the same tools out of the box…

Carry one of every available weapon your class can use… learn what they are good for… and change them out when needed.

Lastly… learn to communicate with all the “player bots” around you… strategize, tell them what you are good at and the role you can take on during that fight… then do your job.

We don’t need healers… we do need coordination… we don’t need cookie cutter “roles”… we need more communication and flexibility. Zergging is what is boring… you create your own challenges. If all you are doing is spamming your auto-attack because “nothing else really works” then you need to learn to manage the skills available to you better… and get away from the “needz 500 moar players to auto-attack dis baddie” mentality.

@ bluewanders-
I have the same response to Nekro on this one. And to Nekro: if you were trying to do this on Jade Quarry and there was a lvl 80 Ranger in the fight, that was me picking all of your butts up off the ground and dodging EVERY SINGLE STOMP. I was doing this event 2 days ago and responded to the zone call for help knowing that I’ve taken him down solo before without a hitch. Granted, solo he takes over 10 minutes to whittle but he’s doable.

So I show up and we start fighting. I never dropped and this was not because of my level or gear because I was simply able to avoid everything but the fear using dodges and Signet of Stone but it was taking noticeably longer to take him down due to the upscaling of so many people who had no clue how to dodge. I pulled away and de-aggro’d for a second to swap out to “Search and Rescue” and dual Devourers to try and play medic but it was to no avail.

What I’m trying to say is that having someone who can heal and rez only puts a band-aid over bad gameplay. Having someone who can heal 10-20% wasn’t going to save these bad players. They were running in to the fight with their greatswords drawn and trying to stab the giant to death while he just stomped on their heads. None of them attempted to dodge (something that is really easy as he telegraphs his attacks worse than Glass Joe from Punchout). Nobody tried pulling him to areas where there was cover and every time I tried to, people kept pulling him back or I felt obligated to run back and rez them instead.

The trinity is a cover for bad gameplay.

Borked.6824:

Give us something like amped up healing with traits (God forbid we actually use healing gear to), or give shield-wielders a way to elongate their mitigation for longer periods of time, or give leather wearers more endurance and avoidance traits. Lots can be done to liven up professions (from 1-80, and on) without having to call the change “Operation Trinity-Up the Broken GW2.”

I would like to see more of this. But, I’m afraid it would push combat too close to trinity roles for the GW2 player base to accept. Then, we’d have another forum implosion with people crying out “ANET LIED TO US!!!!” among other things.

Currently with GW2 combat, I always feel like a dps with limited other weaker skills.

I do laugh when people say GW2 is skill based. Sure positioning and the occasional dodge is important, but I would hardly say it was skill based. Perhaps if it was not tab targetting and more like a FPS you could say that.

I liked how SWTOR you could respec into different roles. and I agree with the OP that removing roles did not enhance the game as much as they hoped.

I agree you do not necessarily want the old tank + healer that do all the work but you could make having a tank change a hard dungeon to becoming easier. As long as most classes can fill the tank role.

greg.3792:

I agree you do not necessarily want the old tank + healer that do all the work but you could make having a tank change a hard dungeon to becoming easier. As long as most classes can fill the tank role.

If its more efficient, the player base will make it required for joining their groups. They will also claim that the “hard” content is too easy and demand harder content that will not be completeable without dedicated tanks and healers.

There is no “win-win” here. The two mentalities cannot coexist.

And so Anet caters to the percentage that can run a perfect circle in their sleep, so that they can make a grab for that coveted esport crown. At this point i wonder why they even bothered turning this game into a MMO.

Then again, give them their harder content (hello fractals). But make that content independent of any other PVE/PVP so that the rest of us can opt out. Giving the ascended gear even a small up tick from exotics were a potentially fatal flaw in Anet’s thinking.

greg.3792:

I do laugh when people say GW2 is skill based. Sure positioning and the occasional dodge is important, but I would hardly say it was skill based. Perhaps if it was not tab targetting and more like a FPS you could say that.

I liked how SWTOR you could respec into different roles. and I agree with the OP that removing roles did not enhance the game as much as they hoped.

I agree you do not necessarily want the old tank + healer that do all the work but you could make having a tank change a hard dungeon to becoming easier. As long as most classes can fill the tank role.

I think you obviously play mostly solo, have no clue about the Combo system and are content with your play-all-your-abilities-when-off-CD style.

Do you need a healer? Play a class that either does or blasts Water Fields. Then, you’re a STRONG healer, my blast heal 2.5k AoE to all my party, and i can do them 3 times for field, while continuing to do DPS in the meanwhile. You can even combine with your abilities, i think the best healer is a Shout Warrior with Blast finisher with a Ranger or Elementalist in party.

Do you need a tank? Melee with a Thief or Necro in party and activate their poison field and smack away. Or be poisoner while your friend tanks.

You get the idea. You want Taunt, and Heal. So you can push your magic button and it’s all settled down, i can pew pew pew, the healer can tunnel vision heal, and the tank can be smacked in the face by lobotomized mobs that answer to an asura tank “Taunt”… eheh

Reinstating the Trinity will simply make me buy WoW. The trinity there is much better implemented than in other younger or immature clones out there.

It is not about reinstating the trinity!

As for water, only 3 professions produce them, and only with 4 skills between them!

1 engineer (regenerating mist tool belt skill, when having healing turret equipped, PBAOE on the engineer. 60s cooldown), 1 ranger (Healing Spring PBAOE heal and regen 45s cooldown), and 2 elementalist (Geyser at 20s and Healing Rain at 45s, staff required).

Not that they matter much, at they at best (maxed out healing power) heal for 1/5 of the low health professions. Two of them require the profession to be in the heat of things, and only one of them has a cooldown below 40 seconds.

I’ve been cut-pasting this post a little bit, but I like it :P

If the entire party builds cooperatively (just like a trinity MMO party might choose the right members), then you can do the sort of coop tactics that you might find in a trinity MMO.

Just that the paradigms are a bit reversed:

- Many members of the party should take something that can heal allies.
= Everyone can heal, but heals are weak in this game.
= If a party member is low on health, rather than 1 Priest responsible for healing the party, the entire party should temporarily get together and heal him.

- Many members should take skills that support others in a defensive way.
= If someone is being targeted by the enemy, the other members should cast their defensive support on him whilst he kites and dodges.
= That person is thus “tanking” the enemy, by being the focus of the group’s defensive skills. (the party should still continue to throw damage at the enemy as well, of course.)

- If the player who is targeted is adequately healed and defended, then people who are not targeted can focus on damaging skills without wasting time on self-healing or dodging.
= Thus we have “DPS” role.

- Dont forget CC skills like knockdown and stun, they can also be used to save other players.

- Most heals and defense skills in this game are AOE. So even if multiple players are targeted by enemies, you can defend all of them together if the targeted players stick close to each other. The non targeted players can keep away to stay out of AOEs and stay safe whilst DPSing and using their defensive support.
——————————-

So we see that we have GW2’s own trinity of damage, support, healing. But instead of single people occupying these roles, instead what happens is that the entire party will focus these activities on one player when required.

It just requires parties to create balanced coop builds that can support the party in a variety of ways. Everyone is too used to making optimised solo builds, or builds that focus exclusively on one thing.

And that one with the low cooldown has the drawback of having a ridiculous low AoE range. So if you want to benefit from the only effective group healing you have, you actually have to go to the frontline and join the pug with your light armor.

It’s not the lack of the holy trinity whats so disturbing with the GW2 combat system, it’s the fact that all professions are forced to play the same way. Dodge, DPS and try to perform timed combos (either solely or with group members). Thats all you can do.

GW1 was far more flexible. Sure, many groups played the holy trinity build with 2 monks, 2 tanks and the rest did pure DPS, but the game offered far more possibilities. Do i really have to remember you of all the ranger builds, including the trap-builds? Or spike-builds? 55hp with damage reflection?

Every build had a different style of game, not only limited to different combos, but a completely different approach. Positioning, pulling aggro, holding formation, varying demands on timing, it all played a role.

So much of this has been removed with GW2. The system has been reduced to a pure buttonsmasher. And what people call “skill” in GW2 is nothing more than pure timing and reflexes. Call out targets, stay in pug, synchronize combos over teamspeak and thats all. Theres nothing more to the game.

digiowl.9620:

It is not about reinstating the trinity!

As for water, only 3 professions produce them, and only with 4 skills between them!

1 engineer (regenerating mist tool belt skill, when having healing turret equipped, PBAOE on the engineer. 60s cooldown), 1 ranger (Healing Spring PBAOE heal and regen 45s cooldown), and 2 elementalist (Geyser at 20s and Healing Rain at 45s, staff required).

Not that they matter much, at they at best (maxed out healing power) heal for 1/5 of the low health professions. Two of them require the profession to be in the heat of things, and only one of them has a cooldown below 40 seconds.

You can activate them multiple times, you know? With my 5s Hammer Blast Finisher, i can activate Ranger PBAoE 3 times. I will activate it, not him, he doesn’t have to be in the thick of battle, he can put the field and go away, i will blast it as melee. They only have to stay within 600.

When my ranger friend calls “Water Field”, i always strive and activate them at least 2 times. That’s 1.4k Heal per activation. Then he can do a Projectile finisher through it, activating Regeneration on me and other people around. And that’s only 2 people, wonder what will happen if all five people Blast the water field (all classes have blast in various weapons).

That’s only healing. I could delve in Weakness (effectively halves incoming damage), Might (Adds up damage) and various other mechanics, that involve GROUP effort instead of pushing “Taunt” or “Heal”.

Exterminans.9723:

So much of this has been removed with GW2. The system has been reduced to a pure buttonsmasher. And what people call “skill” in GW2 is nothing more than pure timing and reflexes. Call out targets, stay in pug, synchronize combos over teamspeak and thats all. Theres nothing more to the game.

Then… what is “skill”? Who is the “skilled” player, or better, the skilled TEAMS?

I think that:
- dodging at the right time and knowing when to retreat
- using your abilities at the right moment
- coordinating with your group and doing teamwork
- focusing the right target when there is need to burst
- adapting your strategies to the group

is what a skilled TEAM has to do.

At the contrary, the unskilled team:
- whines because it is instagibbed by boss abilities (solution: tank and trinity, so i can tunnelvision heal or pew pew DPS without interruption)
- whines because their abilities have too long CDs and they can’t DPS/heal (solution: specialize roles and give more specialized abilities)
- whines because there is no structure and tactics (solution: trinity)
- whines because feels it should do much more damage and the boss have too much health (solution: specialized roles so i can pew pew more)
- whines because some bosses are too hard (solution: trinity)

but, read, the solutions are already there. Up in the previous list. I don’t think that the skill of the player should have to limit to “building a good spec”. It is part of the game, but the most important is TEAMWORK.

Exterminans.9723:

GW1 was far more flexible. Sure, many groups played the holy trinity build with 2 monks, 2 tanks and the rest did pure DPS, but the game offered far more possibilities. Do i really have to remember you of all the ranger builds, including the trap-builds? Or spike-builds? 55hp with damage reflection?

Every build had a different style of game, not only limited to different combos, but a completely different approach. Positioning, pulling aggro, holding formation, varying demands on timing, it all played a role.

So much of this has been removed with GW2. The system has been reduced to a pure buttonsmasher. And what people call “skill” in GW2 is nothing more than pure timing and reflexes. Call out targets, stay in pug, synchronize combos over teamspeak and thats all. Theres nothing more to the game.

One man’s “button masher” is another man’s “skill”, and one man’s “variety of builds” is another man’s “Build Wars”.

You listed a bunch of builds in GW1. But from what I remember, most of those gimmick builds basically had the players equip skills that work well together in a very mechanical way. And success in using those builds involve doing the “one thing you’re supposed to do” as effectively as possible.

So basically the choices you make before the match had much more effect than the choices you make during the match. If I recall, this is why top GW1 PvP players always considered balanced builds to be much more interesting than gimmick builds – because it actually allowed people to fulfill a variety of roles and the entire party can adjust its focus dynamically.

GW2 aims to promote that kind of gameplay. Maybe it’s not all the way there yet. Or maybe the playerbase hasn’t quite grasped the concept either. But I think the way forward is to improve the active, adaptive, live gameplay, not revert back to GW1’s “build wars.”

Fabsm.5897:

Then… what is “skill”? Who is the “skilled” player, or better, the skilled TEAMS?

I think that:
- dodging at the right time and knowing when to retreat
- using your abilities at the right moment
- coordinating with your group and doing teamwork
- focusing the right target when there is need to burst
- adapting your strategies to the group

is what a skilled TEAM has to do.

At the contrary, the unskilled team:
- whines because it is instagibbed by boss abilities (solution: tank and trinity, so i can tunnelvision heal or pew pew DPS without interruption)
- whines because their abilities have too long CDs and they can’t DPS/heal (solution: specialize roles and give more specialized abilities)
- whines because there is no structure and tactics (solution: trinity)
- whines because feels it should do much more damage and the boss have too much health (solution: specialized roles so i can pew pew more)
- whines because some bosses are too hard (solution: trinity)

but, read, the solutions are already there. Up in the previous list. I don’t think that the skill of the player should have to limit to “building a good spec”. It is part of the game, but the most important is TEAMWORK.

I’ve been looking for a way to say this for 2 days now… Ultimately, GW2 is not more or less skilled based than any other MMO out there. It just seems to attracted mostly dps players who think that it requires more skill just because now they have to do a fraction of what tanks and healers do all the time… Kind of sad though…

I have no idea what the OP is looking for in roles that isn’t already there. Yeah sure, no one has a set role in a group from start to finish except damage, but there’s other things to be considered for a group to be successful.

I wouldn’t call them roles for this game, more like tasks, situation that happens and the group need to decide how to respond to it. The more common situation that happens is someone went down (happen to the best of us) and needs a res. Now some one now needs to res that person, they get that person up, and maybe they used a skill to help them to that, (guardian bubbles, aoe stealth, CCing mobs). Support becomes very noticable when you prevent wipes with it.

Or the group gets to a part of the dungeon that requires a different strategy, like in CoF path 2 you need to protect a npc while he opens a door (this is used in other dungeons), best way for group to do this is have one person kite around the mobs away from the npc, and take turns once that person is down.Theres actually alot more examples than that, and it make this game really dynamic.

These tasks are not limited to one certain class and can be done with almost any class. Certain builds of these classes make each task better than others, a tankier build for example would help more in that CoF situation than beserker. Doesn’t mean a beserker can’t do it, just means they’ll have a harder time with it.

I complete disagree on what people are saying that you can’t tank or heal others, i have a guardian in full cleric gear with a staff and hammer, and i saved so many with the heals i put out, of course i can’t save everyone everytime, but if people are dodging big attacks and healing them selfs, it is completely possible. And that build is fairly tanky too, to the point that i can stand toe to toe with most bosses for a good while (kholer still kicks my kitten tho ><). support is really nice too with i do 15 stacks of aoe might in one go.

Same with my thief, i built it to take on a large amount of mobs with a unicorn build with decent amount of healing, now thieves don’t have a huge amount of support (some buff and aoe stealth) but my ranger friends know well enough that if they put a healing spring down, a lot of heals will be coming there way when i start combing them. The thief is not a healer, but i can pretend to be one and it works out just fine.

I’ve had a few groups gone sour, someone would be curses the whole time because it’s too hard and alll theya re doing is damage, or leave if they downed a bunch of time (not dead, just downed). these people were just sitting in the back range attacking or going toe to toe with beserker gear and not keeping them self alive properly. They wouldn’t even help res down players, it forced be to run back from the mob i was keeping busy just to res the person who was being stepped on by the guy who wasn’t res’ing. Those people still had the trinity mind set and did not want to change how they did things. and i’m glad they are leaving this game, if you can’t adjust yourself to this game, you shouldn’t be here.

TL:DR,
*Roles in a group are not set in stone and player need to adjust themselves for every situation that happens.

*Certain builds make these roles easier, and they do exist, but they are not end all be all for these roles

*people who don’t learn this won’t have a good time with the game.

I think that’s my greatest complaint. This game prides itself on build variety however because you can’t actually check what people are doing you wind up with dungeon runs where everyone is running a glass cannon setup which means lots of deaths all around.

The broken trinity means anyone theoretically can do tank/damage/support to varying degrees but you cannot actually tell who wants to do what because the system is designed to prevent discrimination via not being forthcoming about teammates builds and specs. It’s great for smashing 5 people together but bad for trying to synergize a party that will be most effective at clearing a run.

As it stands you grab people and kinda hope that it’s understood that running full on damage gear means dodging or you’re becoming dead weight and conversely that running full support means you do crap for damage and best have glass cannons to compensate for your lack of damage.

I think that Anet made the right call, but also that the OP’s points are valid.

What Anet did was taking away overly specialised class that cannot function effectively by themselves when put in more challenging situations. And I salute them for that.

What Anet also did was oversimplify certain aspects about combat. 10 skill bars + 5 slot skills + 1-4 profession skills ? Oh sorry, I forgot “dodge”.

While of course anyone with a bit of an interest for builds will find ways to craft their own unique character, with their own take on the class….well that is about it. It IS good. But it is a bit stale too.

I know some people will be tempted to say " but you have so many weapons to chose from, you can always change your style, etc…etc…etc…". Well you are correct, TECHNICALLY.

The majority of players will experiment until they find THEIR way of playing their class, then will be set more or less definitely on 2 weapon sets for the rest of their life (playing that specific class of course, that goes without saying). It would be incredibly costly/ time consuming for casual players to farm exotics for each possible weapon combination. Also the chosen spec will favour specific weapon set combinations while dismissing the rest.

My thief happens to have all the exotics for each of his available weapons. But let’s not forget the thief has a pretty poor inventory so it wouldn’t that challenging compared to -let’s say – a warrior’s arsenal.

So what happens once that specialisation happens ? Well with roughly 17- 25 abilities, half of them generally on pretty harsh cooldowns you end up with a gameplay that is INSTINCTIVE but becomes monotonous fast.

Sure the more you play, the more efficient you become. But fun and efficiency do not always go hand in hand.

That is the reason why I rolled an alt, just to get some variety of playstyle.

So, so far all i have done is point out my personal qualms with the GW2 combat system. Now i am going to present my suggestions :

-I would love to see lvl80 unlock a THIRD weapon swap. it is a simple fix, which I believe could be very easy to implement in the current game’s mechanics. Simply replace the “swap button” with “two buttons”, each specifically assigned to a chosen weapon set. All there is left to do now is merge it aesthetically in the UI.

I believe this could add that extra little bit of spice to combat, and allow players to develop better skills but also permit them to be more versatile than they currently are.

To be honest, it is my prediction that this will be the case in a future expansion. Most likely the one that will increase the level cap…whenever that will be.

-Aerial combat. Yes I said it. That most likely will never happen and I wouldnt mind that much if it didn’t. In fact, it probably would make a mess of the current mechanics and essentially has no reason to exist in the game.
Although it would be nice to see maybe a fractal or a special instance where you could have an air fight ( maybe trick the player by actually applying the same dynamic as water combat, simply disguising water as air and a new animations for movements? Quite a lot of efforts for a simple dungeon so as i said, probably not worth it). Also i never played Aion so I am no fanboy if that is what some are going to say.

-More varied traits. I know you currently can make two characters of the same class diametrically opposed using different trait specs at the moment…still though as OP pointed out, they both would be damage dealer in the end, no matter hard they tried to be different.
This could be changed by making traits, more varied and more exotic to one another eventually permitting those who are willing to go to extremes to be “almost” full support, or “almost” full tank…or “almost” full anything you could think of. And yes, I do understand that this would be much harder to balance, which would be particularly irritating in PVP…but at the same time, many things in PVP revolve around irritation so I’m sure dedicated PVPers could live through that change. In fact, the good ones probably would embrace the chance to craft even more unsual builds so they may tear apart their confused adversaries with certain glee.

Crafting an unusual DPS is fun, but they are all DPSes at the moment. And that is where some of the staleness can be found.

To close my wall of words, I believe Anet did the right thing by removing the trinity but didn’t leave enough room for any “real” variations in each class/specs. I also believe it could be easily remedied using current game mechanics since Anet made such a good job creating a fun and instinctive gameplay.

I am pretty positive they are already aware of some of combat’s shortcomings, and I look forward to see what they plan to implement to bring a bit of “oomph” back into the game. I know they can do it. Just have to wait and see.

BobbyT.7192:

…best way for group to do this is have one person kite around the mobs away from the npc, and take turns once that person is down.

I am not a big fan of where dying is expected – I like games where dying should not be the norm, where you are encouraged to keep your toon alive and it becomes a big deal if they die.

Here they like deaths because it is a money sink – which encourages RMT to trade gems for gold.

Never mind the whole down state thing, except that trying to help anyone in that state is apparently a big red flag to any mob within aggro range.

I think it’s more that there’s no “variety” to the gameplay.

Everyone talks about being in a skilled group, and everything, but how long do you expect the same thing to last for?

They had a great idea with moving away from the trinity, but I think they went in the wrong direction. This game has a different combat system from most MMORPGs, you can be a human shield, you can use someone else as a shield, everyone has some kind of buff they can give to their group… So why did they go the direction of dodging as much as possible, basically making shields, any damage prevention abilities, etc, pretty useless in most situations?

I personally agree with the OP. Keep the damage dealer perspective, but if I see someone’s about to get hit with something big, let me get my shield on and get over there and block it for him, and then go right back to my greatsword, not stand there like an idiot for another 15 seconds holding a shield.

I think what he was saying is that everyone should have the utility of a tank / healer, to where you have to actually use these abilities, and put more thought into your play other than the same ideas that have already been in MMOs for the last 10 years that really don’t present any challenge to most players.

Setsunayaki.4907:

This game still has the trinity but chosen among players. Just because its mot class specific does not mean it is not there. I still see thieves hitting 7k on heart seeker and warriors hitting for 11k on kill shot. That is your dps. I still see tankers everywhere. I see only few healers since that is discouraged though I play one. I like self heals and how healing support works but the trinity will always exist in some form because its far too basic.

It’s like trying to replace a knife, fork and spoon with a chopstick. Regardless of the change, we are still eating.

Congrats on your choice. Play whichever way YOU want, and do not feel forced to follow “metas”. I also play damage/defense/support/HIGH heal hybrid, and it’s a VERY fun way to play (not to mention, really effective, regardless what naysayers and number crunchers may claim.)

I think Guild Wars has a lot of tactical options available, the game just isn’t necessarily challenging enough that its’ required to know about them. Dungeons aren’t difficult enough that you really need developed team co-operation to succeed. PVP is generally more of where that is going to be developed and take place, and we can already see it happening with its’ evolving meta-game. PVE, as per usual, is mostly designed around casual gameplay, and probably won’t ever get too terribly challenging as it would turn off a large percentage of players.

Lets not get into argument ower your assument :

“I think you obviously play mostly solo, have no clue about the Combo system and are content with your play-all-your-abilities-when-off-CD style.”

But actually….i play with 2 friends constantly. I am leveling a “support” thief and constantly spam blast finisher with shortbow, and spin araund in my own combo fields, for aoe poison, confusion, blind-heal. But because they have no clue or experiance to realize what the combos mean its quite pointless, that I know -_-

Besides, its not the point. You can, but does not mean you are. It still applyes.
The missing factor is “be able to pick a combat role” is only half true, i should have added the side note : So you can pick a combat role-theme, to costumize your character even further.
Besides. The major point in combat roles is : that you can costumize your gameplay itself. Not only your character.
Having an option to chose what, and how you wish to play adds a LOT to the gameplay.

“but it also limits the upper skill bound.”
I dont agree.
I might sound elitish, but dodging, runing araund and kiting mobs (since they are slower) spamming “combos” that are mostly useless excluding heals you can spread is not skill. Knowing when to dodge an insta gibber aoe is not skilled, it is common sense (should be) Even now, its not abaut timing the dodge, but be able to notice when. Because its freeknig hard to notice anything in battles currently.

There are so many anwsers here to anwser, and to think abaut. Dont worry i do read all, but barely have time to anwser. And even less to think abaut it. I like to take on others perspective to see if there point is valid, atleast in there own eyes. Or they lie to themself.
But to get to the main point many take here : You talk abaut teamwork, combo system, and how many things you can do when go indepth of the system. …Yes you can!
But its nothing speciall after the first few weeks of miracle, when you realize how you can combo araund with your friend, you realize, you are dooing the same as trinity, but in a worse way.
For example, i dont want to be a combo finisher thief, because i am not a support, but i am still forced to cluster finisher in dungeon, because “its my role” even trough i dont want to be a support. I didnt take up the role. I picked a class, but playing that class forces me to be some role in combat.
Why? Because classes and combat roles are all mixed up, into a nonsense coctail.
Believe me after the few weeks you wont be so eager to caps abaut teamwork, tactical options, flexibility, meta game, variety of game play….
At worst you auto attack in the 90% of the time, like a 30.-40 ish thief. At best you only look combo fields, and finishers and dodges.
and realize…you have no real role, you are just there. Yes you are contributing….but not what you really wish to.

TL: DR

It’s there, take it or leave it.

I like both systems: trinity and this new GW2 combat system. Playing of either one too much for long periods of time makes you bored after a while. I like that this is not a trinity system, and people can argue that the combat system offered is good or bad. It doesn’t matter. It’s different. I wouldn’t have bought the game otherwise.

*On topic.

I liked roles in many other games. They did tend to get stale…..after a few years…. per game.

GW2 is setup in such a way that only certain classes can even pretend to be a pseudo role. All possible avenues of self customization towards healing and tanking are weaker than their dps counter parts.

So we ended up going from multiple roles to one role with very slight variations. You are a dps. Dps have tacked on utility in every MMO ever made. Yes, in a coordinated group you can feel like that isn’t true at times because you intentionally add layers of complexity, which generally aren’t needed at all, to feel like you actually matter.

*Since combos have been mentioned a few times I’ll chine in on the derail.

I was really hoping the combo system would end up more like Skillchains in FFXI. Higher damage through combining types of attacks that could lead to special things happening.

The way they turned out is you may combo and never know it because it’s so weak, generally useless and such a short duration. You generally get more out of self-comboing because dodge based combat makes it very unreliable to include other people for an intentional effect.

Combat roles tend to make fights a scripted choreography. It’s more about how much you planned your fight beforehand. I remember seeing big guilds in WoW plan every action down to the seconds on a spreadsheet for some fights. While that can be entertaining for people, GW2 is trying something else.

Are they succeeding? I am not sure yet. But I like that they are trying to make some of their fights mega-man-esque where timing and position is critical.

TWMagimay.9057:

Fabsm.5897:

Then… what is “skill”? Who is the “skilled” player, or better, the skilled TEAMS?

I think that:
- dodging at the right time and knowing when to retreat
- using your abilities at the right moment
- coordinating with your group and doing teamwork
- focusing the right target when there is need to burst
- adapting your strategies to the group

is what a skilled TEAM has to do.

At the contrary, the unskilled team:
- whines because it is instagibbed by boss abilities (solution: tank and trinity, so i can tunnelvision heal or pew pew DPS without interruption)
- whines because their abilities have too long CDs and they can’t DPS/heal (solution: specialize roles and give more specialized abilities)
- whines because there is no structure and tactics (solution: trinity)
- whines because feels it should do much more damage and the boss have too much health (solution: specialized roles so i can pew pew more)
- whines because some bosses are too hard (solution: trinity)

but, read, the solutions are already there. Up in the previous list. I don’t think that the skill of the player should have to limit to “building a good spec”. It is part of the game, but the most important is TEAMWORK.

I’ve been looking for a way to say this for 2 days now… Ultimately, GW2 is not more or less skilled based than any other MMO out there. It just seems to attracted mostly dps players who think that it requires more skill just because now they have to do a fraction of what tanks and healers do all the time… Kind of sad though…

It also had a lot to do with the fact that people can’t be carried as easily. So many folks in WoW and Rift claim to be “skilled”, but at the end of the day they just rely on their teammates to get them through. Their “skill” amounts to little more than having decent gear and a solid rotation.

In GW2 you have to get out of dodge fast when an enemy is coming at you, dodging attacks and running like a madman. All of this while managing combo fields (unless you are a crap player) and still maintaining a decent rotation?

I raided for 5 years in WoW and 1.5 in Rift, switching between tank, healer and dps, and I can say dungeoning in this game is an entirely different beast. But my favorite part is watching self proclaimed “skilled” raiders from other games come here, get roflstomped in a dungeon, and go home saying GW2 sucks.

To Rieselle,

Buddy, you are telling the exact idea of mine, which i made a topic months ago about the new GW2 trinity, where my post were flamed by trinity haters who don’t have ability to read. I for one who hate trinity too but i do agree every word you said here, there is actually another form of trinity in GW2 which is totally different to the traditional one, and require every party member to have a bit dps, a bit support and do it at the right time to get through hard contents.

Good job, you are telling the whole story load and clear than mine.

Cross

Rieselle.5079:

I’ve been cut-pasting this post a little bit, but I like it :P

---

If the entire party builds cooperatively (just like a trinity MMO party might choose the right members), then you can do the sort of coop tactics that you might find in a trinity MMO.

Just that the paradigms are a bit reversed:

- Many members of the party should take something that can heal allies.
= Everyone can heal, but heals are weak in this game.
= If a party member is low on health, rather than 1 Priest responsible for healing the party, the entire party should temporarily get together and heal him.

- Many members should take skills that support others in a defensive way.
= If someone is being targeted by the enemy, the other members should cast their defensive support on him whilst he kites and dodges.
= That person is thus “tanking” the enemy, by being the focus of the group’s defensive skills. (the party should still continue to throw damage at the enemy as well, of course.)

- If the player who is targeted is adequately healed and defended, then people who are not targeted can focus on damaging skills without wasting time on self-healing or dodging.
= Thus we have “DPS” role.

- Dont forget CC skills like knockdown and stun, they can also be used to save other players.

- Most heals and defense skills in this game are AOE. So even if multiple players are targeted by enemies, you can defend all of them together if the targeted players stick close to each other. The non targeted players can keep away to stay out of AOEs and stay safe whilst DPSing and using their defensive support.
——————————-

So we see that we have GW2’s own trinity of damage, support, healing. But instead of single people occupying these roles, instead what happens is that the entire party will focus these activities on one player when required.

It just requires parties to create balanced coop builds that can support the party in a variety of ways. Everyone is too used to making optimised solo builds, or builds that focus exclusively on one thing.

To Fabsm,

Totally agree with you, GW2 actually does require more skill than trinity where spec is the only thing matters. A skilled player in a brain dead party is not able to be a savior, because no single class is able to do everything on his own; while a party filled with 4+ skilled player can do the job right. On the other hand, a trinity only require 2 skilled players, a tank and a healer.

Good job telling the truth!

Fabsm.5897:

Exterminans.9723:

So much of this has been removed with GW2. The system has been reduced to a pure buttonsmasher. And what people call “skill” in GW2 is nothing more than pure timing and reflexes. Call out targets, stay in pug, synchronize combos over teamspeak and thats all. Theres nothing more to the game.

Then… what is “skill”? Who is the “skilled” player, or better, the skilled TEAMS?

I think that:
- dodging at the right time and knowing when to retreat
- using your abilities at the right moment
- coordinating with your group and doing teamwork
- focusing the right target when there is need to burst
- adapting your strategies to the group

is what a skilled TEAM has to do.

At the contrary, the unskilled team:
- whines because it is instagibbed by boss abilities (solution: tank and trinity, so i can tunnelvision heal or pew pew DPS without interruption)
- whines because their abilities have too long CDs and they can’t DPS/heal (solution: specialize roles and give more specialized abilities)
- whines because there is no structure and tactics (solution: trinity)
- whines because feels it should do much more damage and the boss have too much health (solution: specialized roles so i can pew pew more)
- whines because some bosses are too hard (solution: trinity)

but, read, the solutions are already there. Up in the previous list. I don’t think that the skill of the player should have to limit to “building a good spec”. It is part of the game, but the most important is TEAMWORK.

OP, I am a bit confused with your posts.

1. skill spamming

You mention that 75% of the time is skill spamming. well…one can play how they want…they can spam 100% of the time as well…but if you want good dps and know your class well, you would be using many keys including right timing of utilities.

e.g. I play an axe/warhorn warrior specializing in support/defense.
my skills are usually horn5 for aoe weakness (traited for added dmg), axe2 for vuln, shout and elite skill for might/fury, then burst for max dps, all the while watching for big hits to dodge, combo fields to use, shouts to heal and/or remove conditions.

All this is hardly one button spamming. for easier content I can be lazy and spam axe1, but if you choose to spam 1 key, then that’s your choice.

For bosses where you said would 2 hit you? why are you being hit in the first place? If it is an attack that will kill you in 2 hits, it means you should NOT be taking these hits at all. You don’t have to use dodge, you can move out of the boss’s melee range when he does his big attack and then move back in. Or if everyhit is like hard-hitting, then you should be using a range weapon, thats why each profession has a range option. This is by design and if you don’t think this is right, well…don’t fight this boss. lol.

2. ROLES

yOu want more roles…but i don’t understand why you wouldn’t consider the current ‘support’ or ‘control’ as roles? is it because they don’t provide enough healing or constant control?

Perhaps you can explain in depth what sort of roles you like to see changed/add/implemented? i.e. what would they do? what are their skills?

I think a lot of people are still new to this game and does not really understand the core concepts.
If people play their ‘support’ roles or ‘control’ roles properly, it makes a huge difference.

IMO, i think Anet did a great job in implementing a support/control/dmg system where you don’t have to rely on someone else, but yet works well in a team environment.

GW2 just doesn’t offer a profession that does 100% support (i.e stand at the back and heal full time) or 100% control, but if thats what you prefer…well…GW2 doesn’t suit you.

I mostly run dungeons with a RL friend and we play in the same room, usually pugging 3 others, and our runs are mostly very smooth. Only when we pug with people who are new and doesn’t say they don’t know what to do, do we have problems, but otherwise, we know our ‘roles’ and do what we do well.

WHen more people get out of the glass cannon/dmg only mindset, things are heaps more interesting. sadly though, I think a lot of people don’t get to that stage and leave. They just think about getting gear, learning all skills and say there’s nothing else to do. They never bother to experient with all the traits, the synergies between the traits in each of the lines, it is very deep and can be made to do so much.

when you say, “it is useless to trait as a tank, and you aren’t helping any one.” I disagree.
- When you solo, it means you can live longer.
- When you group up in pve, there is no tanking in the traditional sense, because people should be dodging and self-healing…but there are always people who are not as fast or over-estimate themselves….and being alive in a battle and rezzing them can turn the battle around. Being a tank in GW2 means being able to control the battle at the right time, i.e. stuning/dazing/KB/KD at the right moment, moving the boss or target away from people needing a rez, etc.
- when you pvp and you are bunker build, people don’t bother, doesn’t that in a way achieve the objective of being ‘support’?

And each profession can indeed pick their roles. all professions have control/support elements to a varying degree, and they may come in a different flavours, i.e. not just healing.

edit: continue next.

too long..separated.

3. different yet the same

another point you raised was your friends found all professions play the same, that they could not take up a defined role? Perhaps they are thinking of roles in a trinity sense, and haven’t adapted to GW2 system?

Or you can elaborate how it is the same?

The way GW2 implemented the various sub systems (professions, self-healing, traits, utilies, control/support/dmg, weapon skills, etc) are inter-connected, changing one part will break everything else.

Therefore many of the game mechanics must be shared by all professions. all classes can heal, some classes can block, some classes can stealth, some classes can remove boons, some classes can remove conditions more easily than others. BUt I don’t see how this plays ‘the same’. Even warrior and guardian who have very similar weaspon skills (compare GS, mace, hammer, sheild skills), they still play vastly different.

4. your support theif

If you don’t like to be support theif, why are you forced to be one? why can’t you just play a dmg theif with less support tools? spamming a finisher doesn’t make you a support thief.

it’s the tools (group heaing, poison sharing, cripping tools, etc) that you bring that makes you a support thief, if you don’t bring those tools, then you can’t ’support.

I’ve played this game since launch and it took me a month plus to decide which type of warrior I want to play…and I am playing and enjoying my ‘support/defense’ warrior very much. I offer lots to my group (stated above).

I say it again, get right back to WoW and get the HECK out of my neighborhood.
Trinity is boring, outplayed, and just impractical. This system is WAY better.

And on another note, there IS no clear-cut class roles in GW2. It’s SUPPOSED to be that way. If it weren’t we’d end up with the same drongo-minded trinity as before.

The only thing left in this game thats is unique is the fact of not having a trinity. Put in the trinity and it becomes like all other games out there. I know you all say it would be nice to have a tank out there to control the multiple mobs, I can for one say this is obtainable if you have a truely skilled group. My hubby truely skilled could always control the crowd but then the rest of us in group werent trying to nuke them down either, it isnt a dps race or zerg, I didnt see a time limit. I think the question shouldnt be how do I turn the game into what I like but if this is what the game is and these are the mechanics of it do I like them or can I accept them as they are and still have fun or do I need to find a game that offers what I do want and play it.

Dunno why people read this as asking for a return to rigid profession roles, aka trinity.

“who don’t have ability to read. "

I must agree with you. More then the 90% of ppl here hating didnt even read the posts. Not even my posts. Why are they even commenting abaut things that are not even mentioned -_-
Seriously.

Crossaber, Fabsm,hartmoore

you didnt read my reply. I should not even bother replying again, since oyu will propalby only flame me for something i alredy stated and you didnt care for.

1, I did teamplay a LOT, actually to moch. I dont care what you call “skills”, gameplay is easy even if you combo 10 times every battle.
Besides the fact, most combos are useless or only slightly or barely noticably usefull, besides heal combos -_-
Dodging, Timing right, Focusing right target, adapting requires no real gaming skills. More like common sense and focus on what you are actually dooing and not try to instance when you are eating chips or watch movies meantime.
You know what needs gaming skill? Quake 3 . A Sc2 tournament, or a Lol Championship. (besides a good team).

You ppl are talking abaut fresh players that didnt get above 20-30 and got bored and went back to wow or main here on forums.
I am talking abaut veteran players growing up on gw1 for years and hardcore pvp ing. That are not used to play goofy builds that are anything but concrete or designed for 1 thing they want to actually do. They are used to deploy there own builds for something they chose.
Or palyers that alredy run arah and farm orr, with "builds " they got bored alredy with.
A build that spams the same sequence like 10000 times a day.
Switch a build? You cant! There are like 3-4 viable builds.
Besides, even if you “switch” a build, you are basically dooing the same. With less or more boons or conditions.

On support Thief topic : I didnt say i support when cluster bomb, i actually sead i am forced to cluster bomb even if i dont want to, because it is so usefull.
If i support i do all i can. But the 90% of the time heal is the most iportant.

I dont mean to offend anyone here, dont take me that way, but if i sound a bit angry … I AM …because ppl post and reply things without even bothering to read!

This is getting way to agrumental on petty side topics. Keep to topic and be mindfull, and stay open, to thouts. Stay constructive ppl.
A healty critic is good, it builds, to moch is trolling.

I gotta agree… At first, yeah, the dodging, the using occasional snares on a mob being kited instead of focusing on one job can be exciting, but that’s it, for the entire life of the game.

Where the trinity really outshined how this game works is that your off-role utility actually took skill and knowledge to use, not habit of “Mob is targeting me, so push 4”… Or it’s time to do a combo, the same combo for the 30,000,000 time since I started playing the game, OMG SKILL!!!!!!!11

Set roles that are all you do is boring, complete chaos with limited utility is boring… But where a good player truely shows, is set battle roles where you have to use the utility of another role.

The combat is just way too bland

tonyl.5063:

… not habit of “Mob is targeting me, so push 4”… Or it’s time to do a combo, the same combo for the 30,000,000 time since I started playing the game, OMG SKILL!!!!!!!11

And trinity roles are different from this how?