Guild Wars 2

I would just honestly rethink the whole combat system moving forward if i were an ArenaNet head-honcho. It’s really shallow, the class structure and content delivery doesn’t encourage group play and any synergy through skills and combo fields seem to be mostly inconsequential. On top of that, roles, classes, skills, etc…everything is very homogenized and somewhat bland. Combat system needs to be expounded upon.

Dante.1508:

I must say the more i read these Dev responses to serious questions that need fixing, the less faith i have in Guildwars 2 future.

But i guess it makes sense now why after 6 months Rangers and Engineers etc are still terrible classes..

Amen! I play a condition necro. Tonight I was in on killing the swamp behemoth , and rolled conditions on him over and over throughout the entire fight. At the end of the fight, I didn’t even get the chest. I got nothing.

I had such high hopes for this game, but its become just another placeholder until something better comes along. I still feel like the game is in beta, and Anet is Dr Frankenstein chasing the monster around the countryside in the dark, unable to catch it. They created something they have no idea how to control and are flying by the seat of their pants just trying to keep their heads above water.

Why not just let additional conditions over the 25 limit add to the Condition Damage used to calculate the damage?

Take bleeding for example. Rather than adding brand new stacks, you would simply be changing the damage of the current bleeds by adjusting the Condition Damage calculation.

So bleeds doing 100 damage at 25 stacks would do 120 damage if another person with the exact same stats added 5 bleeds.

It would essentially act as Might for a specific condition for the duration of the additional stacks over 25.

Vorch.2985:

Why not just let additional conditions over the 25 limit add to the Condition Damage used to calculate the damage?

Take bleeding for example. Rather than adding brand new stacks, you would simply be changing the damage of the current bleeds by adjusting the Condition Damage calculation.

So bleeds doing 100 damage at 25 stacks would do 120 damage if another person with the exact same stats added 5 bleeds.

It would essentially act as Might for a specific condition for the duration of the additional stacks over 25.

Honestly that would probably make it even worse, particularly due to the difference in durations between the bleeds.
The simplest fix that wouldn’t be TOO drastic an issue most of the time would be to make it so that bleeds (and I guess poison and burning time too) that are discarded due to reaching the stack limit (or duration limit for burn/poison) do all of their remaining damage at once.

Jzaku.9765:

There’s a cap on condition stacks of 25. In a scenario where you have two thieves attacking a boss and one of them can achieve a stack of 25 by themselves, the other one essentially becomes useless because they’ve got nothing to stack on. Is anything being done to address that to make them less redundant?

Colin: Currently no. Interesting statistic for you: every condition in the game costs server bandwidth. ‘Cause we have to track how often the condition is running, what the duration of that condition is and what the stack is. So the more stacks we allow them more expensive it gets because we’re tracking every additional stack on there. And so we could, say, you can have infinite stacks. Number one: that becomes really unbalanced. But number two: it’s actually extremely expensive for us, on a performance basis. That’s one of those weird, kind of back-end server issues that can help make game designer decisions regardless of what you want to do with it.

One of the things people have been talking about is having their own individual stack limit that they can apply, rather than an infinite amount on one boss.

Colin: Yes, it’s tough. It’s certainly something we can look at, it does drastically change the way that the professions play, right? It does say “you can no longer stack all of one type of condition”. It might change the skills on each profession if we were to do that. It would encourage a little more group play to some extent. It’s not something we’re really talking about, but it’s an interesting idea. I’d have to think a lot about what the effects of that would be overall, but it’s an interesting… interesting idea.

So we can derive at least 2 things from this:

*Colin himself doesn’t actually understand his own game and doesn’t realize that 5 condition builds in a party without a condition cap would be outputting equivalent damage as 5 direct damage builds because on an individual level they are equal

*He seems to think it’s perfectly okay to leave it as terrible as it is because fixing it would make hosting more expensive. I.E., it’s okay to leave things completely unbalanced.

Guys, this is A-net. Remember how in GW1, Shadowform was the only thing in the world for years? Balance is not what they do, and they just don’t care as long as long as two basic truths are met:

1: PvE content can be completed by anyone, which it can, because anyone can do anything naked with one button, and eventually win.

2: PvP content is still happening. It doesn’t matter if it’s just fixed matches where the red team resigns just long enough in to the match to fool the system. As long as someone still does it, it’s ok.

This is just sad.

Guess when they say you can play how you want they really mean you can play a zerk warrior or get screwed.

Why even have condition damage in the game if you are going to cap it so low a single player can max the stack himself? Im part way through leveling a thief and i can already get poison and bleeding up to 15 stack easaly by myself and i dont even have any of the high end skills/traits yet im level 22. My max level warrior can max a stack of bleeding by himself no problems.

How can the devs be this stupid to not consider this a game breaking issue?

Guess i can always just use my thief for jumping puzzles as my charr is not do good at them.

During beta and after release, the necromancer community pointed out several major issues with the class that effectived quality of play. For example, we complained that we lose our minions if we transform (lich, plague) or we get moa’d (and we lose our flesh golem is we go into the water).

After aknowledging the issue and the fact that it was not working as intended, the devs just actually changed the tooltip to express the fact that minions will despawn if transformed and called it fixed.

Condition damage is just another example of LAZY programming. A company, making a ton of money off this game, and continuing to do so with the gem store (you’re crazy if you don’t think they are not making a lot of money) should offer its community more in the form of balancing issues and fixes.

I am speaking from a necromancer’s perspective: Condition damage is heavily gimped (imo) because a) you’re limited in pve group settings with this kitten cap, and b) the amount of condition removal in the pvp portion of the game is too kitten plentiful. So not only can people erase my damage with an easy click (some classes have 4 ways to do it), its limited in its damage to begin with.

And people wonder why warriors, thieves, burst/shatter mesmers, and d/d elementalists are the most seen classes in pvp, with bunker guardians added in. They are gimping their own game, and the idea of multiple build types for the “lower played classes” is a facade.

The fact that anyone thinks infinite condition stacks is even remotely balanced is laughable.

DarksunG, please even try to back up that opinion with some hard numbers. Tip: you can’t when referring to condition DAMAGE, vulnerability not withstanding.

DarksunG.9537:

The fact that anyone thinks infinite condition stacks is even remotely balanced is laughable.

No less balanced than a infinite number of zerkers.

With their technical limits in place it would have made much more sense if all classes were focused on direct damage abilities (power based) with conditions as an bonus. I really don’t get it how they could come up with necros and condition based builds/abilities for rangers/engis/thiefs.

Game Designer: Man, condition based builds for every class would be aweseome. Adds a lot of variety to the game. Which is good selling point.

Engineer: Well, there’s a problem …

Game Designer: Bah, you guys will fix it. It’s your job.

DarksunG.9537:

The fact that anyone thinks infinite condition stacks is even remotely balanced is laughable.

So you agree that direct damage is currently not even remotely balanced? Each condition or even a few stacks is equal to ONE direct damage attack. The only difference is the condition takes time to do it’s damage where the direct damage is done instantly. Infinite condition stacks will in no way unbalance the game since it would be the same as direct damage is now. If there was infinite condition stacks and you put 50 condition builds vs 50 berserker builds, the beserker builds would still kill things faster due to direct damage scaling better and their damage being instant.

We can do things your way though, we need to limit the number of direct damage attacks a mob can take in a certain time frame. Since 2 condition builds can max out condition stacks, lets make it 2 direct damage attacks per second. Sounds ridiculous right? Well that’s what condition builds have been dealing with since launch.

DarksunG.9537:

The fact that anyone thinks infinite condition stacks is even remotely balanced is laughable.

Not at all. The only thing we’d have to lose is the necro’s epidemic skill, that’s for sure. But other then that, condition builds need a stack of roughly ~20 to get even catch up to berserker builds, which is what makes them so worthless right now.

Why would we have to lose epidemic when it can only apply to max of 5 other targets

It seems to me that lowering the number of stacks all skills do, while increasing the amount of damage per stack, seems like a good way to reduce the bandwith costs for Anet.

So why not implement? Rarely does lowering your costs increase customer happiness…;-)

Hmmm….maybe i’m looking at this in a simple way…

But if you have a problem of people adding to many conditions in a group, and you have a cap because of bandwidth issues related to cost…

Wouldn’t it be easier to just Double the amount a bleed does, and reduce the amount of bleeds abilities apply?

In other words, an ability normally applies 2 Stacks of Bleeds that will do 100 damage each for 5 seconds…

The ability now does 1 Stack of bleed that does 200 damage a tic for 5 seconds

It’s the same amount of damage, but you’re reducing the amount of bleeds you have to track, and you’re basically doubling the amount of bleeds you normally would apply (it’d be like tracking 50 vs 25)

Elvahaduken.3609:

Why would we have to lose epidemic when it can only apply to max of 5 other targets

Because of exponential growth, the power multiplication in coordinated groups would put time warp to shame. Assume there are 5 necros and 2 targets (A and B ). The necros stack 50 aoe bleeds up on both, which is only 10 stacks per necro, so a rather conservative estimate.

1. A50 B50
2. necro 1 epidemics A -> A50 B100
3. necro 2 epidemics B -> A150 B100
4. necro 3 epidemics A -> A150 B250
5. necro 4 epidemics B -> A400 B250
6. necro 5 epidemics A -> A400 B650

Granted, that would need some well coordinated play, but it would put good groups way too far ahead of pugs in scenarios where this would be possible.

Note that I’m not at all saying the bleed cap does not need to be lifted, just that this single skill would need to be adressed as well if they did.

This issue is known since beta and was communicated plentiful by players. Back then, balance was the reason for the cap on stacks, according to the devs. Unlimited stacks would be overpowered.

Now, when checking on the issue by asking Colin, server performance seems to be the reason all of a sudden. And it seems we are even further from any solution. Did I miss a lot of stuff in between, what’s going on? :o

wintermute.4096:

Elvahaduken.3609:

Why would we have to lose epidemic when it can only apply to max of 5 other targets

Because of exponential growth, the power multiplication in coordinated groups would put time warp to shame. Assume there are 5 necros and 2 targets (A and B ). The necros stack 50 aoe bleeds up on both, which is only 10 stacks per necro, so a rather conservative estimate.

1. A50 B50
2. necro 1 epidemics A -> A50 B100
3. necro 2 epidemics B -> A150 B100
4. necro 3 epidemics A -> A150 B250
5. necro 4 epidemics B -> A400 B250
6. necro 5 epidemics A -> A400 B650

Granted, that would need some well coordinated play, but it would put good groups way too far ahead of pugs in scenarios where this would be possible.

Note that I’m not at all saying the bleed cap does not need to be lifted, just that this single skill would need to be adressed as well if they did.

Unless those two necromancers keep refreshing the stacks, without killing their targets in the process, each AB cycle would have a loss of stack between them as epidemic has a 15 second cooldown.

god forbid necros become wanted >>

I don’t see how balance is the reason for the cap.
In pvp, getting 25 stacks of bleed is a death sentence, just like 50 would be.
Put anything more then 25 seems wasteful, yet it should be doable if someone pleases.

I’ve had this pvp match 2 weeks ago, that a team of 3 necros were owning us with their conditions,really. It’s a PvE problem.

Reminding you that 1 condition removal skill will nulify all that hard work.

And on mobs,they’re right now taking pitiful amounts of damge from conditions.

I agree with the common notion around here: Increase single stack damage, decrease the number of stacks a skill applys.

And with various crit skills that proc on crit hits,usually 33% as i’ve noticed. Reduce the chance and increase the damage.

For bleeds and vunrebility.

Alleged reasoning, and amateur suggestions aside. Here are the facts:

Condition builds are useless in PvE. and No good dungeon party will allow any condition players into their party, because they are a waste of a party slot.

Will anything be done about it? I don’t know. Until then, I suggest anyone with Condition builds to use them in PvP, and otherwise stick to power/crit based builds for all PvE content.

The simple, and obvious answer is, we need different rules for PvE and PvP, regarding how conditions are handled.

Where’s this qoute taken from ??

DKNS.2135:

Where’s this qoute taken from ??

http://dragonseason.com/Front/tabid/124/EntryId/212/Lunch-with-Colin-Johanson-Part-III.aspx

I’m surprised that this is an actual issue in a modern game running on modern equipment (the bandwidth Colin mentioned is, I assume, referring more to server processing bandwidth rather than network bandwidth).

Realistically speaking, how many mobs will actually have large bleed stacks (as an example as more classes do bleed than say confusion) on them at any given time on any given server? Take the open world PVE servers as an example (although I think it would also apply to WvW), at any time there must be are dozens of individual mobs being attacked throughout the server. Surely as normal and veteran mobs die quicker under larger loads of bleed/confusion this means that any server resources required to keep track of the bleed stacks on those mobs would also be freed up just as quickly. Champs and dragons stick around longer but surely each servers could handle one or two champs or dragons with a couple of hundred stacks on them as the players applying those stacks wouldn’t be applying them to other mobs?

If they can’t remove the limit (or move it to be per character) then I think there’s at least a case to be made for increasing the stack limits for mobs based on their rank, so veterans and elites would allow twice the number of stacks, champions and legendaries by x5 and epics would be x10 at least. (Note: Vulnerability should probably stay at max 25).

That way the dragon you’re all fighting would take at most 10 times the resources to track as the boar being killed in the next valley. After all, if the 20 of you weren’t all fighting the dragon you’d probably all be killing at least 10 boars.

If they can’t do that – and assuming they’ve exhausted all other reasonable options – then I’d be more than happy if they calculated the damage that my bleed stack should have done when it is either applied (or removed to make space for someone else’s more powerful bleed stack) and then convert it into a direct-damage hit (call it Haemorrhage for the sake of argument) and apply that instantly, so if for example if my attack should do 1000 damage over 3 seconds but there’s no space for it then bam, 1000 Haemorrhage damage!

Now our condition spec builds would do the damage they should do (just a bit faster) and I don’t really see an issue with that in PVE at least (I haven’t noticed many mobs removing conditions at least).

digiowl.9620:

DKNS.2135:

Where’s this qoute taken from ??

http://dragonseason.com/Front/tabid/124/EntryId/212/Lunch-with-Colin-Johanson-Part-III.aspx

OP should edit his post to include this link. I’m not actually surprised to hear Colin say this after reading his response to other problems like why cameras are the way they are. The guy seems like he has no clue what he’s doing. The Jay Wilson of Arena Net.

LostInSmoke.2590:

Alleged reasoning, and amateur suggestions aside. Here are the facts:

Condition builds are useless in PvE. and No good dungeon party will allow any condition players into their party, because they are a waste of a party slot.

For someone pretending not be an amateur and using such a… “professorial” tone, you don’t seem very well informed. Too many condition based characters won’t work well together if they use the same type of condition. For instance, 3 bleed warriors will easily cap the bleeds to 25 all the time and like half of the damage will be lost. But condition builds are fine if there’s only one or eventually two of the same type.

it’s actually extremely expensive for us, on a performance basis.

Does this mean that every condition tick is sent from the server to the clients? Would it not be sufficient to only send condition instances when they is created and then let the server and the clients simulate the ticks on their own?

that becomes really unbalanced.

I would love to hear an official response to why that would be unbalanced. If it really is unbalanced then there must be a better way to balance it than to limit and punish teams with multiple condition users.

Individual caps are totally necessary. If you need to make my bleed tick once per second and just tick a bigger number, to reduce the server load, I’m fine with that (even with the incidental effects on overall DPS). But the fact that I built for condition damage and end up doing basically nothing in dungeons because my guild has a Mesmer with slightly higher condition damage who takes all the bleed stacks is insanely frustrating.

Korrigan.4837:

LostInSmoke.2590:

Alleged reasoning, and amateur suggestions aside. Here are the facts:

Condition builds are useless in PvE. and No good dungeon party will allow any condition players into their party, because they are a waste of a party slot.

For someone pretending not be an amateur and using such a… “professorial” tone, you don’t seem very well informed. Too many condition based characters won’t work well together if they use the same type of condition. For instance, 3 bleed warriors will easily cap the bleeds to 25 all the time and like half of the damage will be lost. But condition builds are fine if there’s only one or eventually two of the same type.

See, but all the other conditions are hopelessly outclassed for damage. Bleed lets you put around 2.5-3K DPS on a target with max stacks. Burning gets you maybe 800 or so DPS. Poison is difficult to get over 200 damage per tick. That’s it for conditions. Bleed really has to form the core of your condition damage, or you’re going to be doing very, very little damage overall. For that reason, you should only ever bring one condition character — because a “condition character” by definition should be nearly-capping Bleeds to do significant damage.

joneb.5679:

Jzaku.9765:

Please don’t be intentionally dense, they obviously mean “Use the playstyle you want” when they say “Play the game your way!”. Meaning that every form of damage should be equally viable for any content. Condition damage is clearly absolutely nothing close to that vision seeing as how any 2 condition damage builds attacking the same mob will be stepping on each other’s toes and rendering any more condition damage players absolutely helpless.

If fact burning alone can be maintained PERMANENTLY by any ONE warrior/guardian/elementalist easily rendering any burns after that essentially 0 dps. It really is the worst offender of conditions being bad in group situations.

Your insulting behaviour is just you belittling yourself and does nothing for your argument. The argument I have for your statement for use the playstyle you want is that you as a player can use that playstyle. By no means does that playstyle have to be open ended or unlimited and by no means does it mean it also should be as such when playing with other players with the same playstyle.

It’s not a question of using a build that’s open-ended or unlimited, it’s a question of using a build that’s viable. Conditions, in group situations, especially large groups like those running around in Orr, are not viable because a large percentage of their damage is outright ignored by the game engine. It’s even possible for all of a character’s condition damage to be ignored because it being supplanted by other, slightly higher, condition stacks. For that to happen only requires two or three others running condition builds in the same fight. When some fights have 30+ participants involved, it’s not hard to fill that stack cap. That translates to a lower contribution during the fight, and the possibility of receiving a lower reward that isn’t commensurate with your actual damage output.

I’ll still use condition builds while leveling because I do most of it solo or with one other friend. At 80 though, when most of my activities involve large groups, I switch to pure damage. It’s the only way to ensure I keep seeing gold contribution awards. It’s also nice to know that game isn’t simply ignoring my efforts and that all of my damage is registering.

Conditions are broken. They’ve been broken for ages. It needs to be addressed.

Do you guys who make complaints about conditions being broken, caps ruining the game, mass suicide if conditions aren’t fixed soon plox etc etc, actually fail at dungeons due to these caps? I have a 3 chars I run condition builds on, and I do run dungeons fairly often on all of them, yet even when we have multiple people specced for conditions in the group, it isn’t a huge failure and we gotta reform the group or something, so I honestly dunno what the issue is here. They have acknowledged it, they may or may not be working on it, don’t worry about it, stop posting huge theories about how the game will die or how you “worry” over something so silly and insignificant (God I wish I could worry over things so small and silly). And if someone tries to pull the “But it’s broken in spvp and wvwvw” card, please, just don’t lol.

Fungu.4103:

it’s actually extremely expensive for us, on a performance basis.

Does this mean that every condition tick is sent from the server to the clients? Would it not be sufficient to only send condition instances when they is created and then let the server and the clients simulate the ticks on their own?

In a sense i think they do. But even then, as a worst case scenario, you are looking at condition and boons (never mind food and some other stuff) for yourself, your target, and your 4 party members showing up along the left edge of the screen that the server need to keep you informed about.

Lets say they use one byte pr piece of info (two for the ones that have a intensity stack). That means that if you have a full party targeting a boss, each update the server send out results in at least 5×5×24=600 bytes just for the boons and conditions.

So while his claim has some technical merit, the larger issue is what it says about the company attitude given how important boons and conditions are for the game experience overall.

Dragunstreak.6708:

Do you guys who make complaints about conditions being broken, caps ruining the game, mass suicide if conditions aren’t fixed soon plox etc etc, actually fail at dungeons due to these caps? I have a 3 chars I run condition builds on, and I do run dungeons fairly often on all of them, yet even when we have multiple people specced for conditions in the group, it isn’t a huge failure and we gotta reform the group or something, so I honestly dunno what the issue is here. They have acknowledged it, they may or may not be working on it, don’t worry about it, stop posting huge theories about how the game will die or how you “worry” over something so silly and insignificant (God I wish I could worry over things so small and silly). And if someone tries to pull the “But it’s broken in spvp and wvwvw” card, please, just don’t lol.

I’ve never had any massive problems from playing in a party with more than one condition spec. With one exception… longer engagements reduce survivability. Plain and simple… the longer an engagement lasts, the likelihood that one or more members of the party will miss a dodge or not have an important cooldown increases. This is exacerbated when such a large percentage of the gaming populace is convinced that glass cannon is the only effective way to go. For many of those builds, if they can’t even the fight in under a minute or two, it means a likely wipe… due to all of their survivability is built into burning down an opponent as quickly as possible.

When a player makes sure to build some surviavability… and slot some utility that aren’t just “ups my damaj bro”… these dungeons are far from hard… and the condition cap doesn’t affect too awful much.

Now… huge open world events are another matter… a damage condition build can get locked out of the fight almost when the caps are reached and new ticks are constantly being wiped. Which leaves them with increasingly sub-par direct damage that is attached to their condition skills.

Honestly… I have little use for specialized builds like pure condition or pure direct damage. One trick ponies are too easily hard countered. I put my money on hybrid builds… but that is just my preference, and opinion.

Pifil.5193:

I’m surprised that this is an actual issue in a modern game running on modern equipment (the bandwidth Colin mentioned is, I assume, referring more to server processing bandwidth rather than network bandwidth).

Realistically speaking, how many mobs will actually have large bleed stacks (as an example as more classes do bleed than say confusion) on them at any given time on any given server? Take the open world PVE servers as an example (although I think it would also apply to WvW), at any time there must be are dozens of individual mobs being attacked throughout the server. Surely as normal and veteran mobs die quicker under larger loads of bleed/confusion this means that any server resources required to keep track of the bleed stacks on those mobs would also be freed up just as quickly. Champs and dragons stick around longer but surely each servers could handle one or two champs or dragons with a couple of hundred stacks on them as the players applying those stacks wouldn’t be applying them to other mobs?

If they can’t remove the limit (or move it to be per character) then I think there’s at least a case to be made for increasing the stack limits for mobs based on their rank, so veterans and elites would allow twice the number of stacks, champions and legendaries by x5 and epics would be x10 at least. (Note: Vulnerability should probably stay at max 25).

That way the dragon you’re all fighting would take at most 10 times the resources to track as the boar being killed in the next valley. After all, if the 20 of you weren’t all fighting the dragon you’d probably all be killing at least 10 boars.

If they can’t do that – and assuming they’ve exhausted all other reasonable options – then I’d be more than happy if they calculated the damage that my bleed stack should have done when it is either applied (or removed to make space for someone else’s more powerful bleed stack) and then convert it into a direct-damage hit (call it Haemorrhage for the sake of argument) and apply that instantly, so if for example if my attack should do 1000 damage over 3 seconds but there’s no space for it then bam, 1000 Haemorrhage damage!

Now our condition spec builds would do the damage they should do (just a bit faster) and I don’t really see an issue with that in PVE at least (I haven’t noticed many mobs removing conditions at least).

Well said. I too have considered the haemorrhage idea and feel it would help a lot to keep condition builds viable when fighting tough mobs in groups, without needing to change the cap.

Jzaku.9765:

Colin himself doesn’t actually understand his own game and doesn’t realize that 5 condition builds in a party without a condition cap would be outputting equivalent damage as 5 direct damage builds because on an individual level they are equal

And if this were the case, WoW did an awful lot of DoT-rebalancing considering that the base issue once the debuff limit was expanded was – apparently – without substance.

I guess prior work done by other games shows DoTs are very much different from DD when it comes to balancing, sorry.

Yes, something should be done. But not the trivial solution, because that doesn’t actually help the balance much.

I find it amazing that people are arguing against this fix. At the end of the day, this is primarily to help groups with a lot of conditions or large world events. Class balance is not a question here so it makes no sense to have this much opposition.

It is not about being a one trick pony, these are not players that are stacking nothing but dps, these are based on weapon combinations. Condition damage has nothing to do with the number of stacks you apply

There are a few options to fix this

they need to either make the bleeds/burns/poisons stack for the person. *boring

They could add condition specific fixes. for example, when eceeding 25 stacks of bleed, instantly hemorrhage the oldest stack for its remaining damage as it is pushed off the list.

This thread should be packed with ideas by now, not mindless banter with no real solutions. And no people, not using condition damage is not a solution.

wild question:

Knowing that conditions (probably boons as well) require a lot of bandwith, does this also mean that this causes implications in WvW with multiple players throwing a ton of conditions and boons up at the same time.

Is it a silly presumption to make that they’ve got their hands tied with improving WvW too when they’re having to manage the traffic of conditions and boons, let alone PvE events/dungeons/champions?

Edewen.8304:

I find it amazing that people are arguing against this fix. At the end of the day, this is primarily to help groups with a lot of conditions or large world events. Class balance is not a question here so it makes no sense to have this much opposition.

It is not about being a one trick pony, these are not players that are stacking nothing but dps, these are based on weapon combinations. Condition damage has nothing to do with the number of stacks you apply

There are a few options to fix this

they need to either make the bleeds/burns/poisons stack for the person. *boring

They could add condition specific fixes. for example, when eceeding 25 stacks of bleed, instantly hemorrhage the oldest stack for its remaining damage as it is pushed off the list.

This thread should be packed with ideas by now, not mindless banter with no real solutions. And no people, not using condition damage is not a solution.

this guy gets it, being told there are too many of the play styles you’d like to play is simply not inviting gameplay and turns away players.

The condition caps are bad design and do nothing for individual balance. They NEED to be removed and there as so many avenues down which to travel to remove the server cost issue that it’s actually sad to see them bring it up as if it’s a legitimate reason to stall.

I love this game but I think after all this time they really need to consider hiring additional staff to put towards balance, they seem to be putting next to no effort into what should be a factor of supreme importance…

joneb.5679:

Elvahaduken.3609:

this has nothing to do with the trinity rofl, why can’t each class have a cond for example necro has poisons which can stack to 25, thieves also use poisons or w/e and that poison debuffs healing and increases other classes cond duration on that target. so ya know, classes like thieves and necro are actually wanted in dungeon/fractal groups instead of faceroll warrs/guards.

Its everything to do with why the trinity was purposefully avoided. The reason was that every class could have a build viable to play in a party so no one was calling out or sitting waiting for any particular class. To this end if warriors and guards are chosen over other classes it is either a failure in Anets intentions of the game or just as usual a failure in the player base for being so close minded.

I believe the latter to be true. All professions can do really well, and the preference for warriors/guardians is unwarranted and unjustifiable. Close-minded elitism, even if based on false assumptions or half-truths at best.

My main is a Guardian, but I really have no patience for people who would look down on any Profession as “not ideal”, or worse “useless baggage” for any content. The pseudo-elitism should just die-those players are not as amazing as they believe if they can’t do game content with professions other than warrior/guardians.

I use only power builds anyway, so I guess I’m officially cheap.

I got an idea, lets make a Facehook group called “No Condition Builds : Save the rain forest !”

Guys stop it, the game has it’s ways to go but its going to take time. By any means this game is improving on a much steadier basis that other newer games. Given that ANet has always been slow or maybe just very careful with patches that change core mechanics their current pace is kittening fast!

Edewen.8304:

I find it amazing that people are arguing against this fix. At the end of the day, this is primarily to help groups with a lot of conditions or large world events. Class balance is not a question here so it makes no sense to have this much opposition.

It is not about being a one trick pony, these are not players that are stacking nothing but dps, these are based on weapon combinations. Condition damage has nothing to do with the number of stacks you apply

There are a few options to fix this

they need to either make the bleeds/burns/poisons stack for the person. *boring

They could add condition specific fixes. for example, when eceeding 25 stacks of bleed, instantly hemorrhage the oldest stack for its remaining damage as it is pushed off the list.

This thread should be packed with ideas by now, not mindless banter with no real solutions. And no people, not using condition damage is not a solution.

From bottom to top:

- Not using condition damage is a solution, much like going full Berserker gear is a solution to other issues.

- Balancing ideas aren’t just for the open-world PvE where this is the big problem since WvW uses PvE rules. Anything you do to fix it must also wind up being considered for how it would work in WvW. On players. Who don’t have insanely huge health pools.

- I, personally, am not arguing against “the fix” I’m more just wary of “simple fixes” and looking at how they might actually break the game worse in the other direction. I’ve been party to some tabletop games where one rule gets bent a little in the house rule setup and abruptly I’m seeing some crazy things take place which break the game. That’s made me wary of monkeying around with rulesets blindly.

I feel like the majority of this thread is bashing on the developers for not fixing everything at once. If you hate it so much then don’t play, if you want them to fix it sooner support them through gem store and post suggestions on how to fix it instead of just demanding some fix you may/may not like. Ideas work together, slandering doesnt work at all.

PVE and some encounters in wvw need cond stack fixes so cond builds can be more useful, spvp only needs adjustment to cond removal for balance but cond dmg in tpvp and spvp is fine as is imo.

Removing condition damage is not a solution it is THE solution. You just haven’t figured out any creative way to do it yet.

If any Conditon Damage exists on gear, you can replace it with Power. If Power already exists you replace it with Precision.

Traits that have anything to do with Condition Damage will have to be redesigned. Arenanet created a ton of traits in GW1. I’m sure they’re smart enough to think of some.

Weapon skills that have Bleed, Burning, Confusion and Poison can be redesigned to inflict more direct damage and ANY of the following; Vulnerability, Weakness, Chilled, Immobilize, Cripple, Fear and Blind.

If arenanet leaves conditions in this broken state; we as the community should not tolerate it. Developers should not expect thier players to continue playing a broken game.

bluewanders.5297:

They aren’t evil people who don’t give a kitten… I’m sure they care much more than you do… after all… this is how they are feeding their families. And I’m sure many of them are very passionate about the game… most people who work in a creative industry do…

I keep telling myself that about the people who work under me.
“They aren’t evil, they’re not lazy, they must care right? they need to feed themselves….”

I don’t even look forward to tomorrow’s “big update”, I might check it next week or something, seriously been let down one time too many with their wolf cries.

Calae.1738:

Removing condition damage is not a solution it is THE solution. You just haven’t figured out any creative way to do it yet.

If any Conditon Damage exists on gear, you can replace it with Power. If Power already exists you replace it with Precision.

Traits that have anything to do with Condition Damage will have to be redesigned. Arenanet created a ton of traits in GW1. I’m sure they’re smart enough to think of some.

Weapon skills that have Bleed, Burning, Confusion and Poison can be redesigned to inflict more direct damage and ANY of the following; Vulnerability, Weakness, Chilled, Immobilize, Cripple, Fear and Blind.

If arenanet leaves conditions in this broken state; we as the community should not tolerate it. Developers should not expect thier players to continue playing a broken game.

Thats about the most kitten idea ever. It isn’t working right now, so just remove it…. They replaced magic dmg(common mmo element) and replaced it with cond dmg and I like it a lot more. No longer have to worry about hp, mag def, phy def, elemental resistance, etc. It is much easier to handle. Not to mention, this cond issue isn’t game breaking. If you need a moment to clear your eyes maybe this game isn’t for you. Cond dmg isn’t great, but its not broken.

NinjaEd.3946:

If you hate it so much then don’t play, if you want them to fix it sooner support them through gem store

No.
First of all, they already make plenty of money off of box sales alone. Then, they’re also making kittenloads of money off of the gem store as it is now.
And finally, why should consumers pay them more money to fix something that is so broken it never should have made it into the game in the first place, especially since the problem was pointed out in the various beta events by the people that paid them money beforehand?
Physical goods, like cars, tend to come with warranties, where they will, for no charge, replace things that were broken due to defect. Why should consumers pay them more money, on top of what was already paid for a supposedly finished game, in order to fix a mistake they made before release?

NinjaEd.3946:

I feel like the majority of this thread is bashing on the developers for not fixing everything at once. If you hate it so much then don’t play, if you want them to fix it sooner support them through gem store and post suggestions on how to fix it instead of just demanding some fix you may/may not like. Ideas work together, slandering doesnt work at all.

PVE and some encounters in wvw need cond stack fixes so cond builds can be more useful, spvp only needs adjustment to cond removal for balance but cond dmg in tpvp and spvp is fine as is imo.

I think it’s a little naive to say that ultimately buying more gems will produce faster fixes. This is also increasingly difficult when people are not happy about specific aspects of the game, or when developer/staff mentality is defensive. (see: Perceived loot thread)

I think the main point isn’t bashing devs for not fixing it – I think it’s more about adding a feature in game, and then realising it’s not working as it should, and that there’s almost no room for movement on improving it – considering they mentioned it was going to be released “when it’s ready”, we’re seeing things like this pop up, because it wasn’t ready.

An individual stack limit need only apply to Bleeding, Burning, Confusion, and Poison. The others can easily remain the same. I don’t think any skills would need to be even redesigned if this were the case.

This type of thing really needs to happen or else having more then one condi-dmg player focusing anything else gets really hampered in damage output. Heck, random Burns and the like really mess with how the damage gets dealt out. It’s incredibly unintuitive to a new player that their damage is somehow delayed for 8 seconds because it’s sitting at the back of the Burning stack.