Guild Wars 2

I’ve loved everything ANet has done in GW1 and GW2 so far, of course they stumbled along the way, but their main focus has always been the players and that is what makes them my favorite developer and is what makes the GW games so dear to me and full of precious memories.

This image has been shaken after reading the blog post about specializations and the trait system, which i absolutely 100% stand behind, with one exception, the hero points.

The hero points system sounds great and encourages people to explore, but it seems ANet has forgotten one of the three game types when they were designing it, and that is WvW, which for the longest time has been treated as the step child of the swamp monster, but even then it was never forced into another game type and was mostly self sustaining.

For those who are not on the same page, the skill point system is getting replaced by the hero point system, where points required to obtain skills and traits will be solely attainable through leveling up from level 1 to 80, and through what we know now as skill point challenges (renamed to Hero Challenges), what they did was as expected, sPvP gets all the traits and skills unlocked by default, and PvE has to get Hero points through hero challenges.

The problem with the above is that WvW has very very little Skill Point challenges, and from my understanding, current level 80 characters will have their traits and skills reset, and given hero points based on their level and completed skill challenges, so you can immediately see where a WvW focused player will have problems, these problems being lack of hero points to develop their builds, and therefore will be forced to play PvE to get what they need, and from the looks of it it will need a substantial amount of hero points to unlock all the skills and traits.

This to me sounds like a big middle finger to the WvW crowd, i get that ANet wants everyone to enjoy their beautiful PvE content, but forcing it on people who do not care for that content is just…sadistic.

It could end up being that ANet has thought of this and implemented an alternative method for WvW players, but for now using the available info, this is just a big red mark in ANet’s image.

edit: i must stress on the sentence “using the available info”

To be honest, I don’t think they care. They made it clear a long time ago that WvW is supposed to be considered a part of PvE, when they kept adding living story to WvW and then eventually integrating the mist war into lore.

There has always been a heavy drive from ANet to play all available game modes, whether you like it or not. Why do you think that some gear in PvE is not easily obtainable but can be had from PvP reward tracks, or that WvW and PvP dailies were added to the system that formerly heavily favored PvE, along with dailies that are irritating and cumbersome to complete in PvE (due to timers, zergs, etc.).

Its probably only going to get worse, because the developers seem to envision GW2 as a single interdependant unit and not as three separate games.

Im a WvWer, T1 in fact. Thats my life, i hate PvE i cant stand it. I see what your saying but i guess its just another of those you will have to do PvE to get it if you like it or not things. Kind of like gold haha.

Hannelore.8153:

To be honest, I don’t think they care. They made it clear a long time ago that WvW is supposed to be considered a part of PvE, when they kept adding living story to WvW and then eventually integrating the mist war into lore.

There has always been a heavy drive from ANet to play all available game modes, whether you like it or not. Why do you think that some gear in PvE is not easily obtainable but can be had from PvP reward tracks, or that WvW and PvP dailies were added to the system that formerly heavily favored PvE, along with dailies that are irritating and cumbersome to complete in PvE (due to timers, zergs, etc.).

Its probably only going to get worse, because the developers seem to envision GW2 as a single interdependant unit and not as three separate games.

I disagree, GW2 started out with rewards leaning heavily towards PvE, and the reason they expanded achievements to wvw and pvp, and reward tracks to pvp, was to cater to the players that are mildly PvE focused, not to amalgamate GW2 into one single game mode, that job went to the work required for legendaries.

Jai.3058:

Im a WvWer, T1 in fact. Thats my life, i hate PvE i cant stand it. I see what your saying but i guess its just another of those you will have to do PvE to get it if you like it or not things. Kind of like gold haha.

Gold i can understand, because WvW can theoretically be rigged, i.e nothing prevents two commanders of a zerg communicating with each other to set up a zerg farm, each taking turns killing each other, that doesn’t happen but in theory it could and is very easy to set up.

With PvE you can’t do that because you don’t control AI, and AI is inherently predictable and therefore exploitable.

Currency making has always been the domain of PvE in all MMOs and i don’t mind occasionally running a pve champ train for some gold, but i sure as heck ain’t running around pve doing skill point challenges to make my self remotely useful again.

After thinking about it, it’s not so great for PvE either. I would have to map out the world doing ‘skill point’ challenges again with all my alts to get their specialization~ which would become repetitive. I thought they were going to add an entirely new system for specializations~ not rename a current one.

A little off topic but, they shouldnt be called “hero” points because your not really doing anything heroic. Your just showing skill or earning higher skill is why they called it a “skill” point. I was hoping they would be earned like achievements but on a daily basis. Like so lets say “Kill 50 enemy invades in WvW” and it will earn a hero point, because you did something heroic. And they reset every day or week or preference of the Dev’s.

RapidSausage.4620:

…

Gold i can understand, because WvW can theoretically be rigged, i.e nothing prevents two commanders of a zerg communicating with each other to set up a zerg farm, each taking turns killing each other, that doesn’t happen but in theory it could and is very easy to set up.

…

It did or even does still happen in the WvWvW-Jumpingpuzzle. Since the WPs are really close together you can kill other players, be killed and immediately continue the mindless slaughter.

As a solution for the WvWvW-players that don’t want to go pve for hero-points:
- For existing characters they could give you hero-points depending on how many skill points you have. This would pretty much make a currently “complete” character receive the full set of hero-points and stay “complete”. I don’t see any reason to reset anyone’s progress just because he didn’t play a specific game-mode enough.
- For new characters they could give hero-points for taking or defending forts. I have a feeling that towers would give too many points too fast. It’s important that defending gives points too, since defending is underrewarded anyways.

It would be greatly detrimental to Anet if they take toons that are currently fully traited and fully skilled and roll back any of that.

They would literally kill their game because many people will walk. i just can’t see them being that daft.

“HATE” is a pretty strong word for the OP to use when what he perceives he will “hate” is pure speculation on his part….(WvW only players getting shorted by the new Hero Point system). I’m not saying a post about being “concerned” over the potential of WvW only players not being properly thought about with this change isn’t warranted, but just assuming this will be the case is a WHOLE LOT of assumption….

I don’t know how many builds WvW-only characters want to have access to, but the Blog does state this:

A level 80 character that’s done none of the hero challenges should be able to unlock more than enough skills, specializations, and traits to make several unique full builds.

Maybe we can wait until all the information is released before being affronted by any fingers wagging around.

PookieDaWombat.6209:

It would be greatly detrimental to Anet if they take toons that are currently fully traited and fully skilled and roll back any of that.

They would literally kill their game because many people will walk. i just can’t see them being that daft.

I’m not going to be that naive. I’m hopeful, but I can already envision how the code is likely to work. On first log-in:
Reset all trait/skill selections, lock stuff as necessary.
Convert skill points into Mystic Forge materials (or whatever purpose they will serve). This purges skill points from cheating the progression.
Grant Hero Points based on level. This will be a baseline number for the level 80s.
Scan the old skill point challenges for completion and grant Hero Points.
Done.
Players will spend accumulated Hero Points to re-craft their builds.

So, for as bitter as the OP has been about it (“hate” in the title? Really?), the devs do need to focus on getting more Hero Points out to the WvW crowd. It might even be a secondary reason for the new maps. Tucking Hero Point challenges at/near strategic goals would reward roamers and siegers for participating in WvW.

As for me, I’m already focusing on more world completion for my 80s. >.>

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

I don’t know how many builds WvW-only characters want to have access to, but the Blog does state this:

A level 80 character that’s done none of the hero challenges should be able to unlock more than enough skills, specializations, and traits to make several unique full builds.

Maybe we can wait until all the information is released before being affronted by any fingers wagging around.

I know it’s hard to believe, but many people like to experiment with skills and traits, to allow roughly a single build to be fully functional at level 80 is just extremely restricting and defeats the whole philosophy of what GW2 is meant to be.

The great thing about GW2 is that even similar builds have differences that are decided by the player for that player’s playstyle, to suddenly restrict everyone to the “meta” build and any other builds need to be grinded throughout PVE content that isn’t necessarily some players’ cup of tea simply isn’t acceptable.

Brother Grimm.5176:

“HATE” is a pretty strong word for the OP to use when what he perceives he will “hate” is pure speculation on his part….(WvW only players getting shorted by the new Hero Point system). I’m not saying a post about being “concerned” over the potential of WvW only players not being properly thought about with this change isn’t warranted, but just assuming this will be the case is a WHOLE LOT of assumption….

Rauderi.8706:

I’m not going to be that naive. I’m hopeful, but I can already envision how the code is likely to work. On first log-in:
Reset all trait/skill selections, lock stuff as necessary.
Convert skill points into Mystic Forge materials (or whatever purpose they will serve). This purges skill points from cheating the progression.
Grant Hero Points based on level. This will be a baseline number for the level 80s.
Scan the old skill point challenges for completion and grant Hero Points.
Done.
Players will spend accumulated Hero Points to re-craft their builds.

So, for as bitter as the OP has been about it (“hate” in the title? Really?), the devs do need to focus on getting more Hero Points out to the WvW crowd. It might even be a secondary reason for the new maps. Tucking Hero Point challenges at/near strategic goals would reward roamers and siegers for participating in WvW.

As for me, I’m already focusing on more world completion for my 80s. >.>

RapidSausage.4620:

……

It could end up being that ANet has thought of this and implemented an alternative method for WvW players, but for now using the available info, this is just a big red mark in ANet’s image.

O..k…

I wasn’t aware ‘several’ meant ‘one’. Nor was I aware that once you chose a build, it could not be changed.

If you are determined to be disappointed/out-raged/insulted/etc., I’m sure nothing said here will placate you.

Perhaps, after the AMA, information more enlightening and acceptable will be available.

Good luck.

The vast ignorance of assumptions being made by some players on this Trait change issue is quit amusing. How about we all get some more info, before we start ranting at the sky about the ultimate doom of the game…..

Assuming the worst (“red mark”?, REALLY?) is par for the course around here, so I guess the chicken little threads should not be surprising to anyone…

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

O..k…

I wasn’t aware ‘several’ meant ‘one’. Nor was I aware that once you chose a build, it could not be changed.

If you are determined to be disappointed/out-raged/insulted/etc., I’m sure nothing said here will placate you.

Perhaps, after the AMA, information more enlightening and acceptable will be available.

Good luck.

sorry if i was a bit aggressive

What that blog post suggested was that reaching level 80 will provide enough hero points for A wholesome build, the A suggests “one”.

Brother Grimm.5176:

The vast ignorance of assumptions being made by some players on this Trait change issue is quit amusing. How about we all get some more info, before we start ranting at the sky about the ultimate doom of the game…..

Assuming the worst (“red mark”?, REALLY?) is par for the course around here, so I guess the chicken little threads should not be surprising to anyone…

the reason for my assumptions are because they gave info on how the whole hero point system will affect BOTH PvE and PvP, but absolutely no mention whatsoever of the WvW implementation or lack thereof.

and i did say that my assumptions are based on THE AVAILABLE INFO, and that it could end being that ANet IMPLEMENTED A SOLUTION FOR WVW.

refer to the last paragraph in the OP

Are you truly just ignoring the sentence quoted from the Blog that states ‘several unique full builds’?

Instead, you feel it suggests ‘A’ build?

My goodness! That is a rather deeply entrenched interpretation.

Again, good luck!

Have they told anywhere that you won’t be able to get hero points or mystic forge materials with badges of honor?

If not, make sure to tell them. I think 100 badges per hero point and 10-2000 for materials should do the trick.

easy solution, add hero points to the WvW reward tracks

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Are you truly just ignoring the sentence quoted from the Blog that states ‘several unique full builds’?

Instead, you feel it suggests ‘A’ build?

My goodness! That is a rather deeply entrenched interpretation.

Again, good luck!

right, i’m sorry, didn’t read this part properly, totally my fault.
but we’ll still hit a cap and will have to run around getting hero points if we want to be able to use everything.

Well, we will see. There may be other avenues made available to WvW-centric players. They did boldly accentuate that nothing announced was yet set-in-stone. =)

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Well, we will see. There may be other avenues made available to WvW-centric players. They did boldly accentuate that nothing announced was yet set-in-stone. =)

i’ll be watching today’s AMA very closely and will attempt to get this question answered.

If it has been added to the thread specifically created for AMA questions, it may be answered. One never knows! =)

(You might consider adding the question to the WvW official AMA thread.)

Best of luck on that endeavor!

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

They did boldly accentuate that nothing announced was yet set-in-stone. =)

Several times, in fact. They wanted to make it abundantly clear that their design choices haven’t finished yet.

So, now is the time to marshal the right support, gather your WvW-centric allies, and make constructive statements to the devs about your concerns. Here’s to hoping your WvW rewards are more suitable in the future.

PookieDaWombat.6209:

It would be greatly detrimental to Anet if they take toons that are currently fully traited and fully skilled and roll back any of that.

They would literally kill their game because many people will walk. i just can’t see them being that daft.

This this this.

I hope for the best with this new system, but I cannot stress enough that, even though I adore GW2 and think it is one of the best mmos out there to spend my free time on, Any falling away from the fact that they are doing all in their power to steer clear of “no gear treadmill” in order to implement this new skill line (even though it may be better in the long run) that causes me to have to work just to return to the current effectiveness of my characters (nerfing given exemption), it will leave a very bad taste in my mouth.

RapidSausage.4620:

…..
but we’ll still hit a cap and will have to run around getting hero points if we want to be able to use everything.

100% speculation on your part. Quit making statements like this as if it were a KNOWN FACT…..at least mention that this is how YOU interpret the situation (so those that are trying to talk you down off your imaginary ledge can state you just might be WRONG in said interpretation….)

You just seemed absolutely convinced that Anet has made it their mission to screw WvW players over….why do you even continue to play their game?

OP do you actually feel the physiological emotion “hate” because of hero points?

Brother Grimm.5176:

You just seemed absolutely convinced that Anet has made it their mission to screw WvW players over….why do you even continue to play their game?

Yeah I keep wondering why people who talk like they have no faith in the company and voice malcontent for every single decision ANet makes still play the game.

Please find a new game, knee-jerk haters. We got enough people here in Tyria without ya’ll.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Maybe we can wait until all the information is released before being affronted by any fingers wagging around.

You must not be from ‘round here. Take your sensibility and get the heck out of these forums! We don’t want yer kind!

Lol. You are right; I was just visiting from the realm of commonsensical thought processes. =P

I just hope that they don’t always balance WvW progress around “constant karma-train zerging with giant fights.”

People who karma train and get into giant fights get tons of bags. People who defend keeps, towers, escort/kill yaks, etc. get hardly any reward. They hinted that there would be more reason to keep keeps, but haven’t announced any actual change to the reward system.

a question that still remains unanswered :/

they didn’t answer much from the AMA thread if at all this time round.

RapidSausage.4620:

I know it’s hard to believe, but many people like to experiment with skills and traits, to allow roughly a single build to be fully functional at level 80 is just extremely restricting and defeats the whole philosophy of what GW2 is meant to be.

Don’t worry about this. With the new, very limited trait system, there won’t be many build options anyway.

Lord Kuru.3685:

RapidSausage.4620:

I know it’s hard to believe, but many people like to experiment with skills and traits, to allow roughly a single build to be fully functional at level 80 is just extremely restricting and defeats the whole philosophy of what GW2 is meant to be.

Don’t worry about this. With the new, very limited trait system, there won’t be many build options anyway.

Only 540. Quite constricting.

“Oh no, I’m going to have to work and put effort in to get these Hero Points like running around in PVE for 15 minutes acquiring a few”

I can’t stop laughing.

It reminds me of old, stubborn people set in their ways.

I think i heard at the start of the stream that you will also get hero points from champ bags, so you would be able to earn your traits in wvw as well.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Lord Kuru.3685:

RapidSausage.4620:

I know it’s hard to believe, but many people like to experiment with skills and traits, to allow roughly a single build to be fully functional at level 80 is just extremely restricting and defeats the whole philosophy of what GW2 is meant to be.

Don’t worry about this. With the new, very limited trait system, there won’t be many build options anyway.

Only 540. Quite constricting.

Despite your snarky answer, it is indeed very constricting.

I’m sorry you feel that way. At least, those reading will know that 540 is the number you consider ‘not many’. I can’t say I feel the same way. It is certainly more builds than I will ever use on a single character.

Of course, ymmv.

Good luck.

Wanze.8410:

I think i heard at the start of the stream that you will also get hero points from champ bags, so you would be able to earn your traits in wvw as well.

I think it was ‘djinngots’ they said would be in the champ bags (i.e. the new currency replacing skill points for buying bloodstone shards, etc), not hero points.

Well I think this change makes it clear that Anet does not consider PVP only WvW a valid playstyle. I guess Anet thinks that if you WvW you must also PVE.

It’s so weird – ANet only just made the changes to PvP so tomes and skill scrolls drop there. That was a conscious decision on their part to allow people to unlock PvE skills through playing in PvP. (Because as of right now, in PvP all skills are unlocked – you don’t need the skill scrolls for that.)

And in the future, I will have to take each one of my alts and run them through 25-50% of Tyrian maps and hunt the same skill (hero) challenges over and over, just to get to the same point that I’m already at right now… that does not make me happy.

Pixelpumpkin.4608:

It’s so weird – ANet only just made the changes to PvP so tomes and skill scrolls drop there. That was a conscious decision on their part to allow people to unlock PvE skills through playing in PvP. (Because as of right now, in PvP all skills are unlocked – you don’t need the skill scrolls for that.)

And in the future, I will have to take each one of my alts and run them through 25-50% of Tyrian maps and hunt the same skill (hero) challenges over and over, just to get to the same point that I’m already at right now… that does not make me happy.

I believe the reason why tomes and scrolls are pvp rewards is because ANet didn’t want the pvp players to be confined to pvp, they wanted to give them rewards that also helped them progress their characters outside pvp without giving outright better rewards than other game modes.

No one has time to be pvp-centric AND grind dungeons/fotm and world completion.

The second paragraph is how i feel pretty much.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

I’m sorry you feel that way. At least, those reading will know that 540 is the number you consider ‘not many’. I can’t say I feel the same way. It is certainly more builds than I will ever use on a single character.

Of course, ymmv.

Good luck.

builds are not really just a random collection of traits.
some of them will not make sense to select together at all.
also, your 540 includes elite spec i think, which is HoT only.

the reality is there will be a lot fewer realistic choices.
HOWEVER they boosted the baseline power of most builds, and most builds take up other builds powers.

So less different builds, but most builds are more powerful/versatile.
likely hood is though, most people will be running around with very similar builds.

phys.7689:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

I’m sorry you feel that way. At least, those reading will know that 540 is the number you consider ‘not many’. I can’t say I feel the same way. It is certainly more builds than I will ever use on a single character.

Of course, ymmv.

Good luck.

builds are not really just a random collection of traits.
some of them will not make sense to select together at all.
also, your 540 includes elite spec i think, which is HoT only.

the reality is there will be a lot fewer realistic choices.
HOWEVER they boosted the baseline power of most builds, and most builds take up other builds powers.

So less different builds, but most builds are more powerful/versatile.
likely hood is though, most people will be running around with very similar builds.

a lot of the people are missing the point behind this change.

first of all, not all traits will remain in their respective lines, so a spec that previously required 4 different traits across 2 different trait lines may find itself only needing to spec into a single line and 2 traits to get the same effects as the old traits, this is very apparent in the whole grouping of traits related to a single skill type into one or two traits, or some functionality even made baseline.

second thing is we will have the equivalent of 18 trait points now, so even if your build can’t be replicated to the letter anymore, you still have lots of room to modify it.

third thing is, everyone is so upset about this change because it ruins their favorite build or meta build, but isn’t the creation and experimenting with traits to make new builds part of the fun of the game?, sure some things will get taken away, but many more things will be added in, or do you want to be running the 100b warrior in PVE since launch with every single thing you do being the same boring rotation