Guild Wars 2

How is it that to play a power spec, you must get multiple stats such as power, precision, ferocity, and when you play a condi spec you only need 1 (maybe 2) stats at most and the rest can be put into tank (toughness/vitality). This just means condition is a direct counter to power specs and there is no reason to go power (except for the fact that playing condi spec is boring, not fun at all) because condi can just tank all of your power damage and apply everlasting conditions to you and then run away and all of that damage is just continuous no risk damage, whereas power specs rely on constant pressure on your target. the fact that conditions can tick for over a quarter of your HP bar each tick is absolutely ridiculous, and it poses no risk to the condi spec player because they are geared in full tank and can just avoid combat after they have put these conditions on you.

There should be no such condition that ticks for over 1k damage that lasts for longer than 5 ticks.

Don’t get me wrong, i like conditions, i like the idea of conditions. i like the idea of damage ticks, punishing you with damage when you use a skill, taking extra damage for moving instead of standing still. all that stuff. but when someones entire damage kit comes from conditions and it can kill you in just a few ticks with no risk, theres a huge problem with balance.

Can there be defensive stat against condition damage? there is only armor against power specs, just more reason to spec into condi.

inb4 “thats the meta ¯\(?)/¯ you just have to adapt ¯\(?)/¯”
inb4 “>balance”

I am going to assume you are talking PvP? Since that is the only place I know of where conditions seem to be a problem to deal with, for less experienced players.

So, first lets get the misunderstanding out of the way, You are right when you mention that to optain max power dmg, you need 3 different stats (power, ferocity and precition)
You are however completely wrong if you think a condi build only need 1 or 2 starts. It need 4 (with current stat options, power, condi power, precition and condi duration), Now if we are any time get a better stat sett for condi (without power) then it will be the same number of stats.

Any kind of tankyness will for both kinds of builds make the dmg suffer hard.

Then you mention that condi builds can aply conditions and then just run away? This however just give you a chance to cleanse the conditions with your condi cleanses (I assume you have some of those in your build??).

What you seem to forget (or not realise) is that power build do the same dmg as a condi build, but the way you defent against them differ.
Against power builds you defences are Thoughness (and vitality to lesse extent), dodges, blocks, invulns and protection.
Against condis its vitality, dodges, blocks, invulns, resistance and cleanses.

Now if you dont dodge a necro that use “blood is power” on you and therefore get 4 stakcs of bleeding on you lasting 1 min. And you dont have a cleanse in your build to take care of it. Then you deserve to die (sry).
Likevise, if you dont dodge the power mesmer using F1 shatter on you, then you just die. You do not get 1-2 sec to react and cleanse here, you just die.

So stop complaining about conditions and look at your build. If you have tons of defences against power dmg, and no defences agains condis. Then you are like many others and need to rethink your build.

Sry re-reading this, it comme accros more harsh then it was ment.

Condition damage for conditions main damage
Precision for proccing traits/runes/sigils with extra conditions
Expertise for condition duration

Yep, just 1 stat.

Then my conditions ignore Toughness and Protection, but they suffer from -duration, heavy condition removal and Resistance.

Explain to me why when a Thief does to much damage people call out the Thief, or if Revenants deal to much damage with CoR people call out CoR.
However when someone does to much damage with Conditions, it’s ALL Conditions that need to be adressed (read: nerfed hard). Despite the fact there are many builds that use Conditions that are balanced or even underpowered.

Maybe i should start doing that too. Gunflame does to much damage, nerf all Power stats by 20%.

Given a condition builds can not really take advantage of Crits or Ferocity in their builds as far as conditions go, they reach the UPPER limit of what they can do quicker.

Not only that but that upper limit is pretty similar across all classes. Once you push Condition damage stat to its max there little you can do to make it tick harder EXCEPT.

Add more stacks of a given condition. This more prone to being cleansed outright. This is why burn Guardians re generally not as dangerous in a Condition spec as it easier to get at the burn for the cleanse.

OR more importantly adding different types of damaging conditions so multiple conditions tick at once. Be it Confusion, torment poison burn or bleed if you get more stacks of different conditions on your damage will jump all taking advantge of that same condition stat. This in essence is the “multiplier” in condition builds and works in those builds much like Precision and ferocity.

If you got 10 stacks of bleeds and are running at 1700 condition damage putting on 10 stacks of poison will better then double the ticks.

This means that the more generic condition duration you can get the higher damage you can get. It is better to have 50 percent added confusion . torment and bleed duration than it is to have 100 percent bleed duration.

This of course depends on he Class being played. If you on something like Guardian with little access to anything but burn than getting that boon duration on burn is better.

If on a thief that can get a good number of poison AND bleeds on along with reasonable torment and confusion, I think you better off with more generic durations.

Bear.3689:

How is it that to play a power spec, you must get multiple stats such as power, precision, ferocity, and when you play a condi spec you only need 1 (maybe 2) stats at most and the rest can be put into tank (toughness/vitality).

This assumption is incorrect. You only need max power, precision and ferocity if you want to maximize your direct damage output. If you want to similarly max your condition damage, you also need three stats: condition damage, expertise and precision (there’s a lot of “apply condition on critical” out there).

So, the questions should be, “How does Rabid compare to Knight?” and, “How does Dire/Trailblazer compare to Soldier?” If you answer those questions, you will see that the discrepancy is lower than people who hate on condition builds are assuming.

Now, the OP is expecting three rebuttals. While all three are applicable, the real issue is balance. There are specific skills which apply conditions that are out of balance. However, that’s not a gear issue, it’s an issue of outlier skills. There have been and still are outliers for power damage attacks, also.

Adapting is another good one, though I’m not going to play the meta card. Condi has been strong in the PvP modes for a long time. However, they’ve certainly gotten stronger since the condi rework. Power, on the other hand, has always been strong. The real issue in most of the condi complaints is that the power players don’t want to have to adapt.

Aomine.5012:

Are we living in same era?

Most traits and sigil has been patched to be on hit instead of on crit.

Zero on-hit sigils apply damaging conditions. Two on crit sigils apply a damaging condition: Earth and Torment.

Of the 9 professions, five have a trait that can apply a damaging condition on crit.

Sharpened Edges: chance for bleed on crit
Rampant Vex: chance to apply torment on crit
Bloodlust: Chance for bleed on crit
Sharpshooter: chance for bleed on crit
Barbed Precision: chance for bleed on crit

IndigoSundown.5419:

Bear.3689:

How is it that to play a power spec, you must get multiple stats such as power, precision, ferocity, and when you play a condi spec you only need 1 (maybe 2) stats at most and the rest can be put into tank (toughness/vitality).

This assumption is incorrect. You only need max power, precision and ferocity if you want to maximize your direct damage output. If you want to similarly max your condition damage, you also need three stats: condition damage, expertise and precision (there’s a lot of “apply condition on critical” out there).

So, the questions should be, “How does Rabid compare to Knight?” and, “How does Dire/Trailblazer compare to Soldier?” If you answer those questions, you will see that the discrepancy is lower than people who hate on condition builds are assuming.

Now, the OP is expecting three rebuttals. While all three are applicable, the real issue is balance. There are specific skills which apply conditions that are out of balance. However, that’s not a gear issue, it’s an issue of outlier skills. There have been and still are outliers for power damage attacks, also.

Adapting is another good one, though I’m not going to play the meta card. Condi has been strong in the PvP modes for a long time. However, they’ve certainly gotten stronger since the condi rework. Power, on the other hand, has always been strong. The real issue in most of the condi complaints is that the power players don’t want to have to adapt.

Aomine.5012:

Are we living in same era?

Most traits and sigil has been patched to be on hit instead of on crit.

Zero on-hit sigils apply damaging conditions. Two on crit sigils apply a damaging condition: Earth and Torment.

Of the 9 professions, five have a trait that can apply a damaging condition on crit.

Sharpened Edges: chance for bleed on crit
Rampant Vex: chance to apply torment on crit
Bloodlust: Chance for bleed on crit
Sharpshooter: chance for bleed on crit
Barbed Precision: chance for bleed on crit

This can’t be right. I don’t see Burning Precision (apply burn on crit) or Arcane Precision (apply bleed in earth and burn in fire attunement). There’s also traits like Symbolic Power (symbols have a chance of burn), Ancient seeds (striking a CCed foe bleeds), Sharper images ( illusions bleed on crit).

Leo G.4501:

This can’t be right. I don’t see Burning Precision (apply burn on crit) or Arcane Precision (apply bleed in earth and burn in fire attunement). There’s also traits like Symbolic Power (symbols have a chance of burn), Ancient seeds (striking a CCed foe bleeds), Sharper images ( illusions bleed on crit).

A couple more:
Precise Strikes (Warr) chance of bleed on crit
Incendiary Powder (Eng) Burn on crit

Not to mention all the ones that cause Vulnerability on crit (but that benefits both power and condition builds).

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Critical_hit

Sigfodr.9576:

Likevise, if you dont dodge the power mesmer using F1 shatter on you, then you just die. You do not get 1-2 sec to react and cleanse here, you just die.

I think that’s why some people have more of a problem with conditions than power damage.

• They see the big power attack happen in an instant and they die. They should have dodged, or blocked, or whatever at that exact moment but they couldn’t or didn’t. They accept that.
• They don’t notice the hits applying conditions until the conditions either kill them or they start to take huge damage ticks. They feel cheated. They weren’t paying attention or burned their condition cleanse early but it must be a problem with conditions because otherwise they’d have to accept that it was their fault or they got outplayed earlier in the encounter.

Put it another way, if the conditions were direct damage you’d just be dead earlier.

I wish conditon players would stop hiding behind a finger.
There aren’t enough cleanses to make things fair. Conditions are too easily reapplied. Conditions tick too fast, pile up too fast to be considered DOTs anymore. It’s lazy gameplay and you know it, makes your wins too easy and you know it, but still, you like to crow about “skill” when all you do is dump condis and turtle up or run for entire fights.
Now tell me i “l2p” all you like, the truth is, we’re not even playing the same game anymore, it’s becoming an aoe spam dumpster on a capture point. The sad thing is that you are defending this crap.

Terrahero.9358:

Condition damage for conditions main damage
Precision for proccing traits/runes/sigils with extra conditions
Expertise for condition duration

Yep, just 1 stat.

Then my conditions ignore Toughness and Protection, but they suffer from -duration, heavy condition removal and Resistance.

Explain to me why when a Thief does to much damage people call out the Thief, or if Revenants deal to much damage with CoR people call out CoR.
However when someone does to much damage with Conditions, it’s ALL Conditions that need to be adressed (read: nerfed hard). Despite the fact there are many builds that use Conditions that are balanced or even underpowered.

Maybe i should start doing that too. Gunflame does to much damage, nerf all Power stats by 20%.

Horrible logic. Everyone saying Precision and Expertise are necessary feel free to explain to me why Dire isn’t available in sPvP then? Because it’s completely rigged as a setup, you would get way more out of just the condition stat than someone running just power.

I talked about this a little in an attribute redux thread I posted, but I actually think that the asymmetry of the attributes is the problem, and that the most obvious solution is to roll precision and ferocity into one attribute. That way, each “role” in combat is covered by two attributes, and you can hybridize (and in fact must, since all high level gear has at least three attributes on it) and still be effective. Gear choices would become a lot more interesting, IMO. Condition builds shouldn’t be dependent on condi procs from critical hits any more than power should be dependent on condi damage to supplement its power damage.

I just honestly think this would improve the whole system and also make it easier for Anet to balance different playstyles.

The problem with the condi meta as it stands now isn’t a condi-attrition build set up, its that there exists a condi-burst setup. With burst, there is no defense. Don’t come to me with all that “bring a cleanse” nonsense. There is no reaction to a condi-burst in this game nor is there enough cleanse that can be brought to mitigate how quickly the condi burst can be reapplied. Granted its “easier” to handle in say, PvP, but in WvW its just broken and the main reason I refuse to run it on any of my toons. Sure I’d probably win more fights but I don’t like exploiting that kind of stuff in a game. I tested the ghost thief set up for all of five minutes (before it was nerfed) and felt genuinely bad while running it.

Now, yes, some changes were made to stem the “epidemic” that was condi burst in WvW, and we are even getting new and interesting ways with the new PoF elites to both give out and deal with condi, but then they also made one class capable of pooching that with one elite… coughspellbreakerwindscough.

Ultimately though, if you’re in a PvP match or a WvW one you pretty much have to run with someone that can do the things you can’t in your build to have the best chance of survival.

Reimia.8741:

Horrible logic. Everyone saying Precision and Expertise are necessary feel free to explain to me why Dire isn’t available in sPvP then? Because it’s completely rigged as a setup, you would get way more out of just the condition stat than someone running just power.

Soldier’s isn’t available in sPvP either.

The most asinine term in MMO history orginates from GW2

“Condi Burst”

Condi has 1 “main stat” Power has 4 plus the vitality it needs to be at melee most of the time to use it

Here are two problems with conditions:

Once your out of blocks, evades and immunities, you still have cleanses and resistance. We all know that conditions have more counters, so they should do more damage right? No! Why should one damage source have to do more than another because it has more counters? And why does one damage sourse even have more counters in the first place??? Conditions can never be balanced as long as they have more counters. Specs either apply too many or too few condis, and/or they apply too much damage or too little damage. And if you can manage to balance condition specs around the most powerful condition countering specs, then conditions end up being far too OP against all other specs. Every spec has roughly the same amount of defences against power attacks, but some are vastly stronger against conditions. So now conditions need to be stronger so they can be viable against specs like support Tempest. And this is just one issue. This leads to more issues.

You’re spec has to run the most defences against condition specs in order to survive. Because conditions have more counters, you need to run as many of those counters as possible. This ruins build diversity.

There are other issues, many other issues that would turn this into a thesis instead of a forum post.

My solutions are simple, but will be controversial. The first one is to remove all cleanses and resistance, and then make condition specs do about the same damage overall as power specs. And then make toughness have an effect on condition damage. Next idea is not to remove all cleanses and resistance, but instead to vastly reduce their quantity and strength. This could also involve some fine tuning to cleanses so that they focus more on cleansing useful conditions. Resistance would be just like protection, reducing condition effectiveness by 33%.

This third solution might be the most reasonable and the most appealing to Anet. More powercreep. Add more cleanses to all weapon sets and specs. Just go all out so that every spec has roughly the same amount of counters to conditions as they do to power damage. This is the “give up” method because it’s obviously the worst one, but also the one that most will agree with, including Anet. Since we can’t agree that condition attacks will do more damage over a period of time as power attacks, we will never find a solution that actually works for the majority while also not being a terrible solution.

Condition Wars 2

Zintrothen.1056:

My solutions are simple, but will be controversial. The first one is to remove all cleanses and resistance, and then make condition specs do about the same damage overall as power specs. And then make toughness have an effect on condition damage. Next idea is not to remove all cleanses and resistance, but instead to vastly reduce their quantity and strength. This could also involve some fine tuning to cleanses so that they focus more on cleansing useful conditions. Resistance would be just like protection, reducing condition effectiveness by 33%.

Doesn’t seem quite as simple. I always thought a simpler route was to have Protection also reduce incoming condition damage, and its effectiveness lowered from 33% to 25% so it can be negated by full vulnerability stacks.

Then have the fumble portion of Weakness reduce the duration of conditions on glancing strikes by a certain %. Doesn’t change too much and the impact is there.

Leo G.4501:

This can’t be right. I don’t see Burning Precision (apply burn on crit) or Arcane Precision (apply bleed in earth and burn in fire attunement). There’s also traits like Symbolic Power (symbols have a chance of burn), Ancient seeds (striking a CCed foe bleeds), Sharper images ( illusions bleed on crit).

So, lack of diligence on my part, you got me.

I’ll repeat my solution:

Make toughness provide % reduction to conditions, and change vitality to provide endurance regeneration and reduce or remove its tie-in to health. This would specialize toughness for damage mitigation and vitality for damage avoidance, which would be a badly needed mechanical and thematic improvement to both attributes that would also indirectly improve the usefulness of healing power.

Then, combine precision and ferocity into one attribute. This would make power and condi builds both depend on two attributes, with others being utilitarian. No, condi does not quite have the dependence on precision that power has on both precision and ferocity, but, more importantly, direct damage specs need more defense than condition damage specs for equal damage. So this would restore a good bit of parity to power and condi based builds, and balance iteration from Arenanet would become simpler.

Win-win-win.

Reimia.8741:

Terrahero.9358:

Condition damage for conditions main damage
Precision for proccing traits/runes/sigils with extra conditions
Expertise for condition duration

Yep, just 1 stat.

Then my conditions ignore Toughness and Protection, but they suffer from -duration, heavy condition removal and Resistance.

Explain to me why when a Thief does to much damage people call out the Thief, or if Revenants deal to much damage with CoR people call out CoR.
However when someone does to much damage with Conditions, it’s ALL Conditions that need to be adressed (read: nerfed hard). Despite the fact there are many builds that use Conditions that are balanced or even underpowered.

Maybe i should start doing that too. Gunflame does to much damage, nerf all Power stats by 20%.

Horrible logic. Everyone saying Precision and Expertise are necessary feel free to explain to me why Dire isn’t available in sPvP then? Because it’s completely rigged as a setup, you would get way more out of just the condition stat than someone running just power.

Soldiers is not in PvP either.

You can not use “what is allowed in PvP” as proof of anything given the nature of the format.

It is premised on matches of random team members trying to take objectives and be the first to reach a given number of points. If gear was allowed that provided for ever more ability to survive , matches would drag on too long and people would drop out of the same leaving other team members at disadvantage.

When one enters WvW there no loss is someone has to leave. It is also easier to focus down individuals that are tanks simply because of the overall numbers.

Reimia.8741:

Horrible logic. Everyone saying Precision and Expertise are necessary feel free to explain to me why Dire isn’t available in sPvP then? Because it’s completely rigged as a setup, you would get way more out of just the condition stat than someone running just power.

Yes, Dire was removed from sPvP. PvP has a lot of bunker going on. Dire’s direct damage counterpart, Soldier’s, is also not available in sPvP.

I’ve tried different condi builds using Rabid or Dire. A lot of them ramp up slowly and do not have the huge ticks of damage. There are also some condi builds which ramp up a lot faster, and do generate large ticks.

It’s also possible to generate a power build that hits like a truck, or one that doesn’t. No one complains, though, that the direct damage stats are at fault. They recognize that discrepancies in power build effectiveness are balance issues. Well, the same is true with condi builds. Some builds have too many cover conditions, which make cleansing difficult. Some conditions have fewer stacks but larger ticks. It’s too easy with some builds to apply a lot of stacks.

Were ANet to adjust the numbers of the condition damage stat, the under-performing condition builds would be even worse. I’d rather they fix the real problem, the numbers on the conditions applied by some weapon/utility skills and some traits.

I vote we also complain about physical bursts of damage as well. Since we’re going to complain about condition bursts. I played physical builds for 4 years. I’ve recently started playing conditions. I don’t feel any more or less powerful than I did before, it’s just a different way of playing.

Sigfodr.9576:

…You are however completely wrong if you think a condi build only need 1 or 2 starts. It need 4 (with current stat options, power, condi power, precition and condi duration)…

yes, because condi builds totally need power in them!?

the only thing condition damage builds need is CONDITION DAMAGE. and MAYBE expertise, but then we have an armor set that is called trailblazers which gives tank stats + both of those stats.
the funny part is that you dont even need expertise. sigils + runes + food is easily enough condition duration for any condition you can apply. they give a LOT of +% duration

Absconditus.6804:

I vote we also complain about physical bursts of damage as well.

Go make your own thread about this.

Bear.3689:

Sigfodr.9576:

…You are however completely wrong if you think a condi build only need 1 or 2 starts. It need 4 (with current stat options, power, condi power, precition and condi duration)…

yes, because condi builds totally need power in them!?

the only thing condition damage builds need is CONDITION DAMAGE. and MAYBE expertise, but then we have an armor set that is called trailblazers which gives tank stats + both of those stats.
the funny part is that you dont even need expertise. sigils + runes + food is easily enough condition duration for any condition you can apply. they give a LOT of +% duration

Condition builds don’t require power to maximize their damage, no. However, they do require condition damage, precision, and expertise to maximize their damage.

Sigils, traits, and runes are only effective at attaining +100% condition duration for a single condition. Many (All?) condition builds use multiple damaging conditions, for which expertise is required to increase duration across the board.

Precision is required in condition builds as many builds generate conditions from On-Critical traits and sigils. A Ranger’s Sharpened Edges, or an Elementalist’s Burning Precision, or a Sigil of Earth; for example.

On a related note, power builds don’t require precision. :P Revenants, Rangers, and Reapers can easily attain a high critical chance with no precision investment at all.

Rolling Mists is really something.

Bear.3689:

Sigfodr.9576:

…You are however completely wrong if you think a condi build only need 1 or 2 starts. It need 4 (with current stat options, power, condi power, precition and condi duration)…

yes, because condi builds totally need power in them!?

Actually, a significant part of condi builds’ damage does come from power. If you ignore power, and use only condition ticks, you negate 1/4 to 1/3 of the builds’ damage relative to the maximized damage output.

Bear.3689:

the funny part is that you dont even need expertise. sigils + runes + food is easily enough condition duration for any condition you can apply. they give a LOT of +% duration

Food got nerfed really hard if you haven’t noticed and is no longer that significant. Besides, there’s no food in sPvP.

Diak Atoli.2085:

Bear.3689:

Sigfodr.9576:

…You are however completely wrong if you think a condi build only need 1 or 2 starts. It need 4 (with current stat options, power, condi power, precition and condi duration)…

yes, because condi builds totally need power in them!?

the only thing condition damage builds need is CONDITION DAMAGE. and MAYBE expertise, but then we have an armor set that is called trailblazers which gives tank stats + both of those stats.
the funny part is that you dont even need expertise. sigils + runes + food is easily enough condition duration for any condition you can apply. they give a LOT of +% duration

Condition builds don’t require power to maximize their damage, no. However, they do require condition damage, precision, and expertise to maximize their damage.

Sigils, traits, and runes are only effective at attaining +100% condition duration for a single condition. Many (All?) condition builds use multiple damaging conditions, for which expertise is required to increase duration across the board.

Precision is required in condition builds as many builds generate conditions from On-Critical traits and sigils. A Ranger’s Sharpened Edges, or an Elementalist’s Burning Precision, or a Sigil of Earth; for example.

On a related note, power builds don’t require precision. :P Revenants, Rangers, and Reapers can easily attain a high critical chance with no precision investment at all.

No, see, the issue is not what stats benefit power vs condi builds, it’s how those stats are weighted within power and condi builds. To me, there’s an obvious problem here, and it’s that condi builds rely very disproportionately on condition damage alone, while power builds rely pretty equally on three separate attributes. In D&D, we call this MAD (multiple attribute dependency), and in this case it helps to explain why condition builds are starting to dominate the meta. Condi players can build around condi by focusing solely on condition damage, and then can freely pick and choose whether they want to fully maximize their condi damage with expertise/precision or throw in some defense, or hybridize using power to have mixed DPS, and all three of these options are pretty viable.

Power builds have none of these luxuries because they are forced to optimize power, precision, and ferocity simultaneously, which is even funnier when you consider that power builds need and should have better defense than condition based builds. This is why I advocate combining Precision and Ferocity into one attribute.

I’d be curious to see some theorycrafting around how exactly this pans out with a handful of builds, but I really, really think they need to combine precision and ferocity to give power builds the ability to hybridize effectively like condi builds can.

Condition damage definitely needs a flat nerf across the board though. It’s easier than buffing power to bring it up to par. Just a flat 20-30% damage nerf to all condition types would be a good direction to take it.

In PVE even dire armor condis will out damage berserkers, except for DH.

Einlanzer.1627:

Diak Atoli.2085:

Bear.3689:

Sigfodr.9576:

…You are however completely wrong if you think a condi build only need 1 or 2 starts. It need 4 (with current stat options, power, condi power, precition and condi duration)…

yes, because condi builds totally need power in them!?

the only thing condition damage builds need is CONDITION DAMAGE. and MAYBE expertise, but then we have an armor set that is called trailblazers which gives tank stats + both of those stats.
the funny part is that you dont even need expertise. sigils + runes + food is easily enough condition duration for any condition you can apply. they give a LOT of +% duration

Condition builds don’t require power to maximize their damage, no. However, they do require condition damage, precision, and expertise to maximize their damage.

Sigils, traits, and runes are only effective at attaining +100% condition duration for a single condition. Many (All?) condition builds use multiple damaging conditions, for which expertise is required to increase duration across the board.

Precision is required in condition builds as many builds generate conditions from On-Critical traits and sigils. A Ranger’s Sharpened Edges, or an Elementalist’s Burning Precision, or a Sigil of Earth; for example.

On a related note, power builds don’t require precision. :P Revenants, Rangers, and Reapers can easily attain a high critical chance with no precision investment at all.

No, see, the issue is not what stats benefit power vs condi builds, it’s how those stats are weighted within power and condi builds. To me, there’s an obvious problem here, and it’s that condi builds rely very disproportionately on condition damage alone, while power builds rely pretty equally on three separate attributes. In D&D, we call this MAD (multiple attribute dependency), and in this case it helps to explain why condition builds are starting to dominate the meta. Condi players can build around condi by focusing solely on condition damage, and then can freely pick and choose whether they want to fully maximize their condi damage with expertise/precision or throw in some defense, or hybridize using power to have mixed DPS, and all three of these options are pretty viable.

Power builds have none of these luxuries because they are forced to optimize power, precision, and ferocity simultaneously, which is even funnier when you consider that power builds need and should have better defense than condition based builds. This is why I advocate combining Precision and Ferocity into one attribute.

I’d be curious to see some theorycrafting around how exactly this pans out with a handful of builds, but I really, really think they need to combine precision and ferocity to give power builds the ability to hybridize effectively like condi builds can.

this

Reimia.8741:

Terrahero.9358:

Condition damage for conditions main damage
Precision for proccing traits/runes/sigils with extra conditions
Expertise for condition duration

Yep, just 1 stat.

Then my conditions ignore Toughness and Protection, but they suffer from -duration, heavy condition removal and Resistance.

Explain to me why when a Thief does to much damage people call out the Thief, or if Revenants deal to much damage with CoR people call out CoR.
However when someone does to much damage with Conditions, it’s ALL Conditions that need to be adressed (read: nerfed hard). Despite the fact there are many builds that use Conditions that are balanced or even underpowered.

Maybe i should start doing that too. Gunflame does to much damage, nerf all Power stats by 20%.

Horrible logic. Everyone saying Precision and Expertise are necessary feel free to explain to me why Dire isn’t available in sPvP then? Because it’s completely rigged as a setup, you would get way more out of just the condition stat than someone running just power.

You call my logic horrible and come up with such complete nonsense yourself.

First you make the faulty premise that Dire is not available in pvp because it’s unbalanced. Sigil of Draining for instance isn’t available in pvp either, guess it must be op as well!
Secondly, you make the faulty assumption pvp is a paragon of balance to begin with. Thirdly you propogate the false idea that WvW is an equivalent gamemode to pvp, when even anet has acknowledged it isn’t and balanced it seperately.
Forth, there are also stat combinations available in pvp amulets that are not in pve.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Bringing-PvP-stat-combinations-to-WvW
As well as various runes/sigils that are only available in pvp.

Then you also make the false assumption that only getting Condition damage is better than only getting Power as an offensive stat. A claim that has been made time and time again over the past few years, yet no one has EVER bothered to actually proof it. Just parrot it.

Your counter “argument” is entirely based on assumptions, with absolutely nothing backing it up. It’s below horrible logic, it’s not logical at all.

Terrahero.9358:

Reimia.8741:

Terrahero.9358:

Condition damage for conditions main damage
Precision for proccing traits/runes/sigils with extra conditions
Expertise for condition duration

Yep, just 1 stat.

Then my conditions ignore Toughness and Protection, but they suffer from -duration, heavy condition removal and Resistance.

Explain to me why when a Thief does to much damage people call out the Thief, or if Revenants deal to much damage with CoR people call out CoR.
However when someone does to much damage with Conditions, it’s ALL Conditions that need to be adressed (read: nerfed hard). Despite the fact there are many builds that use Conditions that are balanced or even underpowered.

Maybe i should start doing that too. Gunflame does to much damage, nerf all Power stats by 20%.

Horrible logic. Everyone saying Precision and Expertise are necessary feel free to explain to me why Dire isn’t available in sPvP then? Because it’s completely rigged as a setup, you would get way more out of just the condition stat than someone running just power.

You call my logic horrible and come up with such complete nonsense yourself.

First you make the faulty premise that Dire is not available in pvp because it’s unbalanced. Secondly, you make the faulty assumption pvp is a paragon of balance to begin with. Thirdly you propogate the false idea that WvW is an equivalent gamemode to pvp, when even anet has acknowledged it isn’t and balanced it seperately.
Forth, there are also stat combinations available in pvp amulets that are not in pve.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Bringing-PvP-stat-combinations-to-WvW
As well as various runes/sigils that are only available in pvp.

Then you also make the false assumption that only getting Condition damage is better than only getting Power as an offensive stat. A claim that has been made time and time again over the past few years, yet no one has EVER bothered to actually proof it. Just parrot it.

Your counter “argument” is entirely based on assumptions, with absolutely nothing backing it up. It’s below horrible logic, it’s not logical at all.

no one needs to prove that power alone is worse than condition damage alone, its something thats just known.

Bear.3689:

Terrahero.9358:

Reimia.8741:

Terrahero.9358:

Condition damage for conditions main damage
Precision for proccing traits/runes/sigils with extra conditions
Expertise for condition duration

Yep, just 1 stat.

Then my conditions ignore Toughness and Protection, but they suffer from -duration, heavy condition removal and Resistance.

Explain to me why when a Thief does to much damage people call out the Thief, or if Revenants deal to much damage with CoR people call out CoR.
However when someone does to much damage with Conditions, it’s ALL Conditions that need to be adressed (read: nerfed hard). Despite the fact there are many builds that use Conditions that are balanced or even underpowered.

Maybe i should start doing that too. Gunflame does to much damage, nerf all Power stats by 20%.

Horrible logic. Everyone saying Precision and Expertise are necessary feel free to explain to me why Dire isn’t available in sPvP then? Because it’s completely rigged as a setup, you would get way more out of just the condition stat than someone running just power.

You call my logic horrible and come up with such complete nonsense yourself.

First you make the faulty premise that Dire is not available in pvp because it’s unbalanced. Secondly, you make the faulty assumption pvp is a paragon of balance to begin with. Thirdly you propogate the false idea that WvW is an equivalent gamemode to pvp, when even anet has acknowledged it isn’t and balanced it seperately.
Forth, there are also stat combinations available in pvp amulets that are not in pve.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Bringing-PvP-stat-combinations-to-WvW
As well as various runes/sigils that are only available in pvp.

Then you also make the false assumption that only getting Condition damage is better than only getting Power as an offensive stat. A claim that has been made time and time again over the past few years, yet no one has EVER bothered to actually proof it. Just parrot it.

Your counter “argument” is entirely based on assumptions, with absolutely nothing backing it up. It’s below horrible logic, it’s not logical at all.

no one needs to prove that power alone is worse than condition damage alone, its something thats just known.

“I don’t need to proof my claims. We’ve just screamed it as fact long enough that it is has become a fact.”

Terrahero.9358:

Bear.3689:

Terrahero.9358:

Reimia.8741:

Terrahero.9358:

Condition damage for conditions main damage
Precision for proccing traits/runes/sigils with extra conditions
Expertise for condition duration

Yep, just 1 stat.

Then my conditions ignore Toughness and Protection, but they suffer from -duration, heavy condition removal and Resistance.

Explain to me why when a Thief does to much damage people call out the Thief, or if Revenants deal to much damage with CoR people call out CoR.
However when someone does to much damage with Conditions, it’s ALL Conditions that need to be adressed (read: nerfed hard). Despite the fact there are many builds that use Conditions that are balanced or even underpowered.

Maybe i should start doing that too. Gunflame does to much damage, nerf all Power stats by 20%.

Horrible logic. Everyone saying Precision and Expertise are necessary feel free to explain to me why Dire isn’t available in sPvP then? Because it’s completely rigged as a setup, you would get way more out of just the condition stat than someone running just power.

You call my logic horrible and come up with such complete nonsense yourself.

First you make the faulty premise that Dire is not available in pvp because it’s unbalanced. Secondly, you make the faulty assumption pvp is a paragon of balance to begin with. Thirdly you propogate the false idea that WvW is an equivalent gamemode to pvp, when even anet has acknowledged it isn’t and balanced it seperately.
Forth, there are also stat combinations available in pvp amulets that are not in pve.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Bringing-PvP-stat-combinations-to-WvW
As well as various runes/sigils that are only available in pvp.

Then you also make the false assumption that only getting Condition damage is better than only getting Power as an offensive stat. A claim that has been made time and time again over the past few years, yet no one has EVER bothered to actually proof it. Just parrot it.

Your counter “argument” is entirely based on assumptions, with absolutely nothing backing it up. It’s below horrible logic, it’s not logical at all.

no one needs to prove that power alone is worse than condition damage alone, its something thats just known.

“I don’t need to proof my claims. We’ve just screamed it as fact long enough that it is has become a fact.”

its already been proven, is my point. like stop trying to argue that lmao

Bear.3689:

its already been proven, is my point. like stop trying to argue that lmao

Please, provide this proof, then.

Bear.3689:

Terrahero.9358:

Bear.3689:

Terrahero.9358:

Reimia.8741:

Terrahero.9358:

Condition damage for conditions main damage
Precision for proccing traits/runes/sigils with extra conditions
Expertise for condition duration

Yep, just 1 stat.

Then my conditions ignore Toughness and Protection, but they suffer from -duration, heavy condition removal and Resistance.

Explain to me why when a Thief does to much damage people call out the Thief, or if Revenants deal to much damage with CoR people call out CoR.
However when someone does to much damage with Conditions, it’s ALL Conditions that need to be adressed (read: nerfed hard). Despite the fact there are many builds that use Conditions that are balanced or even underpowered.

Maybe i should start doing that too. Gunflame does to much damage, nerf all Power stats by 20%.

Horrible logic. Everyone saying Precision and Expertise are necessary feel free to explain to me why Dire isn’t available in sPvP then? Because it’s completely rigged as a setup, you would get way more out of just the condition stat than someone running just power.

You call my logic horrible and come up with such complete nonsense yourself.

First you make the faulty premise that Dire is not available in pvp because it’s unbalanced. Secondly, you make the faulty assumption pvp is a paragon of balance to begin with. Thirdly you propogate the false idea that WvW is an equivalent gamemode to pvp, when even anet has acknowledged it isn’t and balanced it seperately.
Forth, there are also stat combinations available in pvp amulets that are not in pve.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Bringing-PvP-stat-combinations-to-WvW
As well as various runes/sigils that are only available in pvp.

Then you also make the false assumption that only getting Condition damage is better than only getting Power as an offensive stat. A claim that has been made time and time again over the past few years, yet no one has EVER bothered to actually proof it. Just parrot it.

Your counter “argument” is entirely based on assumptions, with absolutely nothing backing it up. It’s below horrible logic, it’s not logical at all.

no one needs to prove that power alone is worse than condition damage alone, its something thats just known.

“I don’t need to proof my claims. We’ve just screamed it as fact long enough that it is has become a fact.”

its already been proven, is my point. like stop trying to argue that lmao

An appeal to “conventional wisdom” is the same as conceding the argument. What you’re really saying is, “Some people agree with me so I’m right, but I have no proof.”

Bear.3689:

Absconditus.6804:

I vote we also complain about physical bursts of damage as well.

Go make your own thread about this.

Why would I? It’s as ridiculous as making topics about Condition Damage bursts. They both exist, the fact that they are bursts means they can be avoided.

As has been stated, Power builds rely on Power mainly, supplemented by Precision and Ferocity for critical hits and damage modifiers. They can hit like trucks and are the kings of 1-2 second bursts into downed state — condition bursts are not able to compete with that. Condition builds rely on Condition Damage mainly, supplemented by specific condition duration, condition duration in general, expertise, damage modifiers and precision. Both sides of the spectrum relies on multiple stats. Most condition “bursts” are only effective thanks to duration. Conditions also relies on cover conditions to make it harder for foes to simply cleanse it away instantly.

I’ll say this:

Damage…
DPS: Power, precision, Ferocity, and Opportunity
DOT: Condition dmg, precision, Expertise -AND TIME-

Power: being direct dmg based (power) on crits (precision) you get 1.5-2.3 times the dmg(ferocity), Toughness will mitigate all dmg (1-45% dmg reduction) and weakness will remove crits and cause fumbles (well ~75% of base dmg). invulnerability removes all dmg.

Condition dmg: being damage (condition dmg) over time (expertise) with added stacks place on crits (precision) Cleanses (cleanse skills, light and finisher, purity ,generosity) will remove all stacks of 1 or more conditions, resistance negates 100% of dmg for the duration of the boon

• On short fights power will still outdmg condi builds.
• 2 Ppl on 1 condi build to speed up a kill will leave a condi powerless to react.
• Condition build weapons have bad DPS on power.
• Both types of build will benefit from might (even though this is theoretically better for condi builds as it boosts both DPS and DOT values, then again having 350 or 475 dmg on a scepter attack doesn’t really matter)

• Time is an issue and often overlooked for simplicity….

TIME : Time is not a stat. But is essential for all condi builds.

If I can get 5 or 6 stacks of whatever condition on you and you cannot clean it: I have won, but only if you do not try to kill me instantly. Tim sis allways in a condi builds favor.

And this is where the balance comes from. Resistance = time, Cleanses = more time. Vitality, often scoffed on, is time as well. Healing and regen is time… All this works versus condi builds. power builds need time to kill the condi within a windows … outside this window the condi builds will be stronger, allways.

Remember conditions can and will be essential for power builds as well…. vulnerability, blinds and weakness are valuable… Poison can be usefull as well, even if it does no dmg… it destroys healing.

So even on a pure power build conditions can be used to great effect. without condi dmg and expertise. looking at power builds without considering the conditions makes the game way to simple.

Condi Bursts
And: Yes condi bursts exist. They consist mostly of whirls in fields, which are bound to a location. Really dangerous but wisest is just to move away from the combo field…. stacks will drop from 8-12 to 1 or 2… making it instantly survivable and less of a threat, unless out of dodges, evades and other movement options.

Even then some whirl combo’s are very nice to combat them (light and dark fields with whirls can give cleanses and lifesteal resepectively… Both will add to player’s stamina in fights vs condi users…..

Depends on class: as condi Thief i need only two dps stats: condi and power, crit is irrelevant for me. So i take condi, power vitality. If i would take precision instead of vitality i would deal maybe 5% more dmg, which is next to nothing. The question is: do i really need that extra 5% dmg or i would rather take 9k more health instead?
As condi Guardian i also don’t need crit much: i get 15% crit on one handed weapons (trait), 10% on burning + 4 base crit = 29% crit + some more from Fury every now and then. So as Guardian i use same stats as i use them on my thief: condi, power, vitality. Necro can also do it well with condi/power/vitality.

Anyway on most condi professions condi/power/vitaliti( or toughness) > condi/precision vitality(or toughness). Precision without power offers you some procs but you lower your base dmg that way. On my condi thief and condi guardian Power still helps me with stronger physical hits.

Again, you also have to factor in the weight of each attribute within the build. I haven’t done significant enough theorycrafting to concretely prove it, but I’d wager one of my kittens that condi builds are weighted in a way that gives them one primary attribute and several ancillary attributes, while power builds basically have three primary attributes they have to equally prioritize to be effective.

If that’s true, and I assume it is based on personal experience, it’s a big problem, because it means that Condi builds naturally operate with a large range of versatility without making nearly as many sacrifices compared to power builds, when, if anything, it should be the opposite due to the passive nature of condition damage. And that’s likely where there’s a lot of vocal anti-condition posts on the forums.

I don’t know if I have the dedication to do it myself (maybe I’ll tackle it in the near future), but I’d love to see theorycrafting either corroborating or disproving this.

Sifu.9745:

Depends on class: as condi Thief i need only two dps stats: condi and power, crit is irrelevant for me……

I have the same on powr necro: 0 precision cause you can get 100% crit without it.

Still precision is genrally needed on condi builds for added stacks through traits , or sigil of strength or other condi proccing sigils.

Sifu.9745:

As condi Guardian i also don’t need crit much: i get 15% crit on one handed weapons (trait), 10% on burning + 4 base crit = 29% crit + some more from Fury every now and then. So as Guardian i use same stats as i use them on my thief: condi, power, vitality.

I actually took the build in a slightly different direction. My Guardian focuses on Power, Toughness, Ferocity and some Vitality. He doesn’t use Right Hand Strength for the 10% crit chance on 1 handed weapons but instead the 50% crit chance while having Retaliation. I built him to get retaliation and light auras a lot and use a hammer for added protection and I can get 2-4k crits with autos and a bit of might here and there. Fury’s not always necessary but it’s a fun bruiser build. I had a similar set-up with my Warrior until they changed the +prec on signet use to +fer. I’d either need to change the build to Power, Precision, Toughness to see how it’d pan out or just go back to my berserker build.

…but that’s all rather beside the point. Guardian may have a build to bypass precision but it still doesn’t compare to a good spec’ed full power damage Dragonhunter-type build.

Absconditus.6804:

Bear.3689:

Absconditus.6804:

I vote we also complain about physical bursts of damage as well.

Go make your own thread about this.

Why would I? It’s as ridiculous as making topics about Condition Damage bursts. They both exist, the fact that they are bursts means they can be avoided.

Wrong. A well timed dodge, block, invuln etc can mitigate a physical burst that is telegraphed UNLESS some other factor flags that hit as unblockable, but even then most can be evaded in those cases provided you still have enough dodges left in you.

Condi burst on the other hand is a non-telegraphed massive stack of damage types that both cover each other and tick off LARGE damage at such a fast rate that you can insta die to it before you could ever try to hit your cleanse after the fact. Furthermore if you somehow managed to eat enough of the damage and live to hit the cleanse and got maybe half of them cleared, you’re probably down you’re condi cleanse and will certainly get hit with more condi damage right after to finish you off. And this is all provided you even had a clue that you were about to be condi-burst.

Fact is condi damage should never be “burst” damage.

Leo G.4501:

Sifu.9745:

As condi Guardian i also don’t need crit much: i get 15% crit on one handed weapons (trait), 10% on burning + 4 base crit = 29% crit + some more from Fury every now and then. So as Guardian i use same stats as i use them on my thief: condi, power, vitality.

I actually took the build in a slightly different direction. My Guardian focuses on Power, Toughness, Ferocity and some Vitality. He doesn’t use Right Hand Strength for the 10% crit chance on 1 handed weapons but instead the 50% crit chance while having Retaliation. I built him to get retaliation and light auras a lot and use a hammer for added protection and I can get 2-4k crits with autos and a bit of might here and there. Fury’s not always necessary but it’s a fun bruiser build. I had a similar set-up with my Warrior until they changed the +prec on signet use to +fer. I’d either need to change the build to Power, Precision, Toughness to see how it’d pan out or just go back to my berserker build.

…but that’s all rather beside the point. Guardian may have a build to bypass precision but it still doesn’t compare to a good spec’ed full power damage Dragonhunter-type build.

Interesting idea. My biggest problem with the new Guardian traits was getting reliable retaliation outside of greatsword.

On topic, just as your build won’t compare favorably with a meta-spec’ed Dragonhunter, neither will condition builds favoring defense compare to a full Viper’s build. (Or is it Sinister’s now? Meta makes my head hurt.)

Diak Atoli.2085:

Leo G.4501:

Sifu.9745:

As condi Guardian i also don’t need crit much: i get 15% crit on one handed weapons (trait), 10% on burning + 4 base crit = 29% crit + some more from Fury every now and then. So as Guardian i use same stats as i use them on my thief: condi, power, vitality.

I actually took the build in a slightly different direction. My Guardian focuses on Power, Toughness, Ferocity and some Vitality. He doesn’t use Right Hand Strength for the 10% crit chance on 1 handed weapons but instead the 50% crit chance while having Retaliation. I built him to get retaliation and light auras a lot and use a hammer for added protection and I can get 2-4k crits with autos and a bit of might here and there. Fury’s not always necessary but it’s a fun bruiser build. I had a similar set-up with my Warrior until they changed the +prec on signet use to +fer. I’d either need to change the build to Power, Precision, Toughness to see how it’d pan out or just go back to my berserker build.

…but that’s all rather beside the point. Guardian may have a build to bypass precision but it still doesn’t compare to a good spec’ed full power damage Dragonhunter-type build.

Interesting idea. My biggest problem with the new Guardian traits was getting reliable retaliation outside of greatsword.

It requires taking some unpopular traits and a utility but my sources are spamming VoJ (this is just standard PvE btw, not high fractals or anything), the heal signet, the stunbreak signet, any aegis you apply and getting hit in the face.

On topic, just as your build won’t compare favorably with a meta-spec’ed Dragonhunter, neither will condition builds favoring defense compare to a full Viper’s build. (Or is it Sinister’s now? Meta makes my head hurt.)

Most players on each side of the argument only tell half truths. And then when people step in to argue the case, its taken into the context that you either think condi and power are equal or that condi is overpowered.

Leo G.4501:

use a hammer

and getting hit in the face.

I. Like. This. Build.

Leo G.4501:

Most players on each side of the argument only tell half truths. And then when people step in to argue the case, its taken into the context that you either think condi and power are equal or that condi is overpowered.

Agreed, and to be honest, I’m likely one of them. (Whomever ‘they’ are.) Hmm…

Correct me if I am wrong, but the opening post’s complaint was that condition builds only required investment into condition damage. For clarification: Was this referring to optimization or viability, and was it for a specific game mode?

Every time one of these posts come out, people (I assume avid condi players) always say stuff like “you don’t have condi cleanse?” as if the stupidly imbalanced condi classes can’t reapply the them isntantly.

The problem with condi is that you got stupid shutdown capabilities WHILE also doing stupid high damage, which is easy to apply/reapply. Most of the cleanse skills take away 2-3 condis at max, while the ones that remove all of them are under long-ass cooldowns. How are you suppossed to remove cripple, chill, burn, poison, bleed, torment etc, with your modest condi cleansing?

You don’t have to worry about that with power built enemies. You just dodge, dodge, dodge, (you can literally pull out vigor out your ass at this point of the game) a few blocks here and there and that’s it. Stuns are rare tbh and most of the time hard to apply.

5-7 stacks of bleed alone and you are already doing damage equivalent to some bread and butter power skills, each second.

Condi classes should not have so many crippling condis, they should have only damage ones.

Knuckle Joe.7408:

Every time one of these posts come out, people (I assume avid condi players) always say stuff like “you don’t have condi cleanse?” as if the stupidly imbalanced condi classes can’t reapply the them isntantly.

The problem with condi is that you got stupid shutdown capabilities WHILE also doing stupid high damage, which is easy to apply/reapply. Most of the cleanse skills take away 2-3 condis at max, while the ones that remove all of them are under long-ass cooldowns. How are you suppossed to remove cripple, chill, burn, poison, bleed, torment etc, with your modest condi cleansing?

You don’t have to worry about that with power built enemies. You just dodge, dodge, dodge, (you can literally pull out vigor out your ass at this point of the game) a few blocks here and there and that’s it. Stuns are rare tbh and most of the time hard to apply.

5-7 stacks of bleed alone and you are already doing damage equivalent to some bread and butter power skills, each second.

Condi classes should not have so many crippling condis, they should have only damage ones.

I’d like to address several things. Disclaimer: This is merely a set of examples and observations. Interpret as you will.

1. The same skills and tactics used to avoid power-based damage also avoid the majority of condition-based applicators. Without those applicators, condition builds don’t do direct damage, nor apply damaging conditions.

2a. A Condition Druid; running full Sinister’s, Runes of the Krait, a Sigil of Malice, and food; has +33% bleeding damage on top of 1,817 condition damage.
- A single stack of bleeding does 174.25 damage-per-second.
- Five to seven stacks deal 871.25 to 1,219.25 damage-per-second.

2b. A Power Ranger; running full Berserker’s, Runes of the Ranger, a Sigil of Force, and food; has 2614 power, 58% critical chance, and 225.33% critical damage.
- Rapid Fire deals a minimum of 3,734.75 to 9,440.98 damage.
- Rapid Fire is a 2.5 second channel, so damage-per-second is 1,493.9 to 3,776.39
Note: This damage is against 2500 Armor. Soldier Professions using Berserker’s, Viper’s, Sinister’s, etc have a Armor rating of 2271.

3. There are no condition professions. Power-based builds have access to the same inhibiting conditions as condition-based builds.
- Afore-mentioned Power Ranger has access to Immobilize, Cripple, and Slow; the same conditions the Condition Druid has.

Now to be a cheeky fellow.

The afore-mentioned Power Ranger also has condition cleansing on a 20s CD (4 conditions), a 20s CD (2 conditions), a 32s CD (2 conditions), a 40s CD (2 conditions), and a 48s CD (2 conditions). These also apply Immobilize, Cripple, and Slow while being stun breaks and evades.

Your build can’t do that?

Diak Atoli.2085:

Knuckle Joe.7408:

Every time one of these posts come out, people (I assume avid condi players) always say stuff like “you don’t have condi cleanse?” as if the stupidly imbalanced condi classes can’t reapply the them isntantly.

The problem with condi is that you got stupid shutdown capabilities WHILE also doing stupid high damage, which is easy to apply/reapply. Most of the cleanse skills take away 2-3 condis at max, while the ones that remove all of them are under long-ass cooldowns. How are you suppossed to remove cripple, chill, burn, poison, bleed, torment etc, with your modest condi cleansing?

You don’t have to worry about that with power built enemies. You just dodge, dodge, dodge, (you can literally pull out vigor out your ass at this point of the game) a few blocks here and there and that’s it. Stuns are rare tbh and most of the time hard to apply.

5-7 stacks of bleed alone and you are already doing damage equivalent to some bread and butter power skills, each second.

Condi classes should not have so many crippling condis, they should have only damage ones.

I’d like to address several things. Disclaimer: This is merely a set of examples and observations. Interpret as you will.

1. The same skills and tactics used to avoid power-based damage also avoid the majority of condition-based applicators. Without those applicators, condition builds don’t do direct damage, nor apply damaging conditions.

2a. A Condition Druid; running full Sinister’s, Runes of the Krait, a Sigil of Malice, and food; has +33% bleeding damage on top of 1,817 condition damage.
- A single stack of bleeding does 174.25 damage-per-second.
- Five to seven stacks deal 871.25 to 1,219.25 damage-per-second.

2b. A Power Ranger; running full Berserker’s, Runes of the Ranger, a Sigil of Force, and food; has 2614 power, 58% critical chance, and 225.33% critical damage.
- Rapid Fire deals a minimum of 3,734.75 to 9,440.98 damage.
- Rapid Fire is a 2.5 second channel, so damage-per-second is 1,493.9 to 3,776.39
Note: This damage is against 2500 Armor. Soldier Professions using Berserker’s, Viper’s, Sinister’s, etc have a Armor rating of 2271.

3. There are no condition professions. Power-based builds have access to the same inhibiting conditions as condition-based builds.
- Afore-mentioned Power Ranger has access to Immobilize, Cripple, and Slow; the same conditions the Condition Druid has.

Now to be a cheeky fellow.

The afore-mentioned Power Ranger also has condition cleansing on a 20s CD (4 conditions), a 20s CD (2 conditions), a 32s CD (2 conditions), a 40s CD (2 conditions), and a 48s CD (2 conditions). These also apply Immobilize, Cripple, and Slow while being stun breaks and evades.

Your build can’t do that?

Lolz, as if Rapid Fire could ever land on anyone with all the projectile hate or simply dodge it.

Do you really pvp? You should give example better than Ranger’s garbage Longbow.

Honestly, Ranger that uses Shortbow is way harder to deal with than Ranger who uses LB even in WvW.

For LB you only need to watch for ONE skill every 10 seconds.
Also protection is so abundant among EVERY classes nowadays. Not to mention toughness is a thing too.

For SB you need to watch for every single attack they spam on you because all of them build up pressure to you.

Diak Atoli.2085:

Correct me if I am wrong, but the opening post’s complaint was that condition builds only required investment into condition damage. For clarification: Was this referring to optimization or viability, and was it for a specific game mode?

Almost certainly for viability, not optimization, and only for PvP environment, where going full glass is generally not advised.