Condition damage needs to be viable in PvE.

Condition damage needs to be viable in PvE.

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Posted by: Jasher.6580

Jasher.6580

If you’re in a dungeon and you happen to be in a group with other condition damage players, with the current set up, your damage is basically a wash…

Bleeding stacks are capped at 25. Burning only refreshes in duration as does Poison… and Confusion… well Confusion is a joke in PvE.

Why can’t players have separate stacks of conditions on a target so that it doesn’t make the damage obsolete when running with a full group of condition specc’d players?

As a Mesmer, I have a huge problem when it comes to how Confusion is handled in PvE.

A “conditionary-condition” is just bad in a game-system where players are encouraged to dodge and move out of harm from potential incoming damage.

Pathing, windup, and ‘monster-skills’ which don’t even proc confusion result in a baseline lack-luster playing field for confusion. Every phantasm and trait tied to the mechanic is usually on a long cool-down, low stacks, and very prone to miss-fire (out-of range scepter channel or interrupted channel sceptre, dead iMage, etc).

If someone finds a boss where Confusion is particularly decent, then maybe that would be some noteworthy information to share. Mobs generally switch targets, move, chase people, “wind up” attacks. Confusion’s damage varies greatly with enemy behaviour and it generally makes this specific condition a joke in a PvE environment.

Another thing that worries me… the developers have already said they were looking into how condition damage is handled when it comes to the “killing” of objects… while I’m happy about that, I’m curious how that would work with the current PvE version of confusion since objects don’t activate abilities.

All in all, I think Conditions and especially Confusion needs to be reworked for PvE AND PvP… since trebuchet’s need to be killed as well and they are objects.

(edited by Jasher.6580)

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Posted by: Zen.2450

Zen.2450

No. Poison and burn used to stack in GW1 as well as bleeds. This needs to be brought back, as it completely negates the use of bringing more than one of both skills into any fight, as what’s the point of adding additional burn/poison when all it does is up the timer a bit more. And if someone else is doing more damage with their build than yours, well you’re just a useless accessory now.

In PvP it’s even worse, while you can through conditions on people, they usually can just ignore them because they don’t do enough damage fast enough to take them down before they get you. The whole point of conditions is endurance, time based combat where you outlast your opponent. As it is they don’t do enough damage to warrant this gameplay.

(edited by Zen.2450)

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Posted by: Gehenna.3625

Gehenna.3625

No, you’re not the only one, but it’s been discussed many times before and Anet already said they are working on this issue but it’s not easy to resolve.

So there’s nothing useful I can add to this beyond that.

It’s a game forum. The truth is not to be found here.

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Posted by: Gehenna.3625

Gehenna.3625

No. Poison and burn used to stack in GW1 as well as bleeds. This needs to be brought back, as it completely negates the use of bringing more than one of both skills into any fight, as what’s the point of adding additional burn/poison when all it does is up the timer a bit more. And if someone else is doing more damage with their build than yours, well you’re just a useless accessory now.

Not true. You couldn’t stack bleed with bleed or poison with poison. And life degen was capped at -10 max anyways.
Conditions only stacked if they were different conditions.

The biggest difference is that in GW1 you could easily change your build, whereas in GW2 the trait system keeps you from swapping builds around like in GW1.

It’s a game forum. The truth is not to be found here.

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Posted by: Mura.8673

Mura.8673

I don’t pve much, so pardon my silly question.

Is there a point to ever use Confusion skills in pve? I thought most mobs, even bosses, didn’t really trigger this. If this is true, why even consider using Confusion stuff in pve. Use a non-confusion build in pve perhaps?

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Posted by: Gehenna.3625

Gehenna.3625

Against normal mobs and (some) veterans it does work. Anything tougher, forget it.

It’s a game forum. The truth is not to be found here.

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Posted by: Jasher.6580

Jasher.6580

I don’t pve much, so pardon my silly question.

Is there a point to ever use Confusion skills in pve? I thought most mobs, even bosses, didn’t really trigger this. If this is true, why even consider using Confusion stuff in pve. Use a non-confusion build in pve perhaps?

Because they want it to be viable in PvP AND PvE so they separated them. Confusion deals different damage in PvE/WvWvW than in sPvP. In PvE and WvWvW, its damage is given by:

10 + (1.5 * Level) + (0.15 * Condition Damage) per stack per skill use.

In sPvP, its damage is half as much, or:

65 + (0.075 * Condition Damage) per stack per skill use.

The problem is that changing the coefficients is not enough to make it viable in PvE. And Mesmers are also concerned about how it will work against objects when they administer the changes for conditions to “kill” objects since objects can’t activate abilities.

If you’re saying we should “forget” about confusion in PvE, then that would render Scepter/Torch a PvP only weapon. And we would be the only class in the game with an entire weaponset pigeon-holed to PvP only. I feel like that would be grossly unacceptable.

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Posted by: Biohazard.2043

Biohazard.2043

Although I do not see the issue in dungeons I do see the issue in events and such. Running scepter/dagger on my necro all game long I specced in condition damage because it reminds me the most of hex-like game play of GW1. There is no reason to use conditions on champions. 25 bleed stacks are added in less than a couple seconds and if I am not contributing to at least 10 of those bleed stacks then I have no DPS on my necro compared to direct damage oriented builds. Most of the time I switch to staff and just auto-attack because at least that way I will be getting damage out.

Like I said though, I did not run into that issue in dungeons. I have run a couple with other condition specced necros. One I ran with had the same utility and ultimate skills as I did which worked very nicely when I replaced my epidemic with a signet. I find it rare when a dungeon team can stack 25 bleeds consistently on an enemy even when I was in a group with two condition necros because I can usually get 12-14 permanently.

As for other conditions, I feel increased durations are fine. I dont think poison should stack, I feel like it works fine. Confusion on the other hand is terrible. I have not been running my mesmer condition spec in preparation for higher level events so I am not very experience with it in pve but confusion usually lasts to short of a time to do any meaningful damage (if any at all) imo.

Jade Quarry
Drexion Miasma – Human Necromancer/ Rryzer Blackpowder – Charr Engineer/
Xoorx – Asura Mesmer

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Posted by: Gehenna.3625

Gehenna.3625

I know what you’re saying Jasher, but my impression as a whole is that skills are balanced around PvP.

Recently we saw they started splitting skill effects between PvP and PvE and I suspect that as the game goes along, more of this will happen.

Any class is viable in PvE but not all skills are useable. I think a big issue is and remains that creating a build for a toon isn’t nearly as interesting as it was in GW1. It was more flexible and you weren’t forced to use specific skill sets with weapons etc.

Now I don’t mean to reopen the debate about skill bars in general but it is part of the issue I think. Mesmer can’t really make a build without illusions in it and when you do have them you want to make them useful.

I just don’t get how game developers don’t seem to really get that we know there’s a difference between an enemy player with 20k health or so and a boss with 2 million hp.

A lot of skills just become silly in PvE and you might aswell just stick on auto attack and dodge all you can, cause that’s usually enough in boss fights without the hassle of worrying about ineffective skill bars. Sadly, it does make it more boring.

So normal mobs, veterans, yeh that works but champions and bosses and such = boring. Don’t get me wrong, the fight might still be very dynamic and such but from a skill bar point of view there isn’t much excitement this way.

It’s a game forum. The truth is not to be found here.

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Posted by: Veldan.4637

Veldan.4637

Anet already said they are working on this issue but it’s not easy to resolve.

It’s actually very easy to resolve. Up bleed stack cap on PvE mobs to 100 and the major part of the problem is fixed, should be very easy and fast since only someone has to type 100 instead of 25 somewhere in a piece of code. They could have done this weeks if not months ago.

… Or am I thinking to easy / logical now?

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Posted by: stof.9341

stof.9341

Confusion is kitten strong already in PvE you know. My engineer uses it to kill stuff far above his level with ease.

It’s not very useful against champions though because you have to let the mob attack as much as it wants which means mitigating the damage they do rather than kitting them to maximize the confusion efficiency.

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Posted by: Lord Awesomeness.1804

Lord Awesomeness.1804

I thought I saw confusion applying damage on a wind-up attack regardless of whether or not it hit anyone. Was fighting ettins, would dodge their attacks but still see the purple circle.

Does the attack actually have to land for it to trigger confusion?

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Posted by: Jasher.6580

Jasher.6580

I thought I saw confusion applying damage on a wind-up attack regardless of whether or not it hit anyone. Was fighting ettins, would dodge their attacks but still see the purple circle.

Does the attack actually have to land for it to trigger confusion?

No the attack doesn’t have to land, but if you’re kiting and dodging, it’s so situational and frustrating, the damage you do over the course of the encounter is a joke compared to that of someone running a power/precision/crit build.

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Posted by: Jasher.6580

Jasher.6580

It’s not very useful against champions though because you have to let the mob attack as much as it wants which means mitigating the damage they do rather than kitting them to maximize the confusion efficiency.

It’s not very useful against champions and/or most mobs in explorable mode dungeons. Which basically means that it’s garbage in an explorable mode dungeon.

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Posted by: mulch.2586

mulch.2586

Every time this gets brought up, I wonder why, given the rules of the game, why are these players attempting condition builds for pve in the first place?

They have their place in pvp. Confusion in particular is wicked awful to a player.

But these complaints don’t make sense to me. The rules are clear. Don’t attempt these builds.

There’s plenty of builds that totally suck for one of the types of gameplay. To a dev, that may or may not mean they should revise the rules.

To a player, it means you shouldn’t run that build.

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Posted by: Knote.2904

Knote.2904

Every time this gets brought up, I wonder why, given the rules of the game, why are these players attempting condition builds for pve in the first place?

They have their place in pvp. Confusion in particular is wicked awful to a player.

But these complaints don’t make sense to me. The rules are clear. Don’t attempt these builds.

There’s plenty of builds that totally suck for one of the types of gameplay. To a dev, that may or may not mean they should revise the rules.

To a player, it means you shouldn’t run that build.

The game lacks build/skill/playstyle variety as it is. Can’t blame people for wanting to change things up. Plus some people actually enjoy dot builds more.

The condition system completely goes against Anet’s philosophy of cooperation lol.

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Posted by: Jasher.6580

Jasher.6580

Every time this gets brought up, I wonder why, given the rules of the game, why are these players attempting condition builds for pve in the first place?

They have their place in pvp. Confusion in particular is wicked awful to a player.

But these complaints don’t make sense to me. The rules are clear. Don’t attempt these builds.

There’s plenty of builds that totally suck for one of the types of gameplay. To a dev, that may or may not mean they should revise the rules.

To a player, it means you shouldn’t run that build.

So in other words, Scepters and Torches are PvP weapons for Mesmers? That is just terrible game design. Also, I quite enjoy DoT damage than direct damage, but right now it is absolutely terrible in PvE.

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Posted by: mulch.2586

mulch.2586

Every time this gets brought up, I wonder why, given the rules of the game, why are these players attempting condition builds for pve in the first place?

They have their place in pvp. Confusion in particular is wicked awful to a player.

But these complaints don’t make sense to me. The rules are clear. Don’t attempt these builds.

There’s plenty of builds that totally suck for one of the types of gameplay. To a dev, that may or may not mean they should revise the rules.

To a player, it means you shouldn’t run that build.

So in other words, Scepters and Torches are PvP weapons for Mesmers? That is just terrible game design. Also, I quite enjoy DoT damage than direct damage, but right now it is absolutely terrible in PvE.

Justify that with the observation that a lot of weapon combos and builds are strictly PvE.

Is it terrible game design? There’s a lot of GW2 that is poorly done, but this part I think is fine. It is good game design because it’s giving you outrageously powerful pvp capability on some sets. On different sets you have very strong pve capability.

My guardian’s bunker-build is useless for pve, too. So… I don’t run it in pve.

Your job as a player is to select the right tool for the job. Scepter torch ain’t it.

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Posted by: Jasher.6580

Jasher.6580

Weaponsets are different from builds. Having an entire weaponset ostracised in PvE IS bad design. Also confusion is NOT “outrageously powerful” in PvP… as a matter of fact, if you noticed in high end sPvP (assuming you play high end sPvP)… condition builds are a joke, and any good team worth their salt don’t carry condition builds. It’s mostly high burst, high control.

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Posted by: Jasher.6580

Jasher.6580

-snip-

I see the bleed cap being hit in 5 man dungeons ALL the time. I’m in a dungeon right now where a Thief and a Warrior are constantly capping it out just the two of them.

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Posted by: ocfallwind.4821

ocfallwind.4821

Every time this gets brought up, I wonder why, given the rules of the game, why are these players attempting condition builds for pve in the first place?

They have their place in pvp. Confusion in particular is wicked awful to a player.

But these complaints don’t make sense to me. The rules are clear. Don’t attempt these builds.

There’s plenty of builds that totally suck for one of the types of gameplay. To a dev, that may or may not mean they should revise the rules.

To a player, it means you shouldn’t run that build.

So in other words, Scepters and Torches are PvP weapons for Mesmers? That is just terrible game design. Also, I quite enjoy DoT damage than direct damage, but right now it is absolutely terrible in PvE.

Justify that with the observation that a lot of weapon combos and builds are strictly PvE.

Is it terrible game design? There’s a lot of GW2 that is poorly done, but this part I think is fine. It is good game design because it’s giving you outrageously powerful pvp capability on some sets. On different sets you have very strong pve capability.

My guardian’s bunker-build is useless for pve, too. So… I don’t run it in pve.

Your job as a player is to select the right tool for the job. Scepter torch ain’t it.

Because it’s not just about one build, or several builds. “Conditions” is a game mechanism. When one game mechanism doesn’t work well on a game mode, it has to be looked into.

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Posted by: MrDmajor.7084

MrDmajor.7084

Forgive me. When I pick up and play games I really don’t do all types of research, I do what I want or think is cool and run with it.

I picked Engineer, and I’m running condition damage all the way. I have never experienced much problems getting through any content.

In a perfect world, what is supposed to change for a player like me if Condition Damage is improved? What is so terrible about it now? Am I supposed to be having problems killing things?

ArenaNet does NOT play Guild Wars 2. This can’t be.

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Posted by: Gaslov.9164

Gaslov.9164

I feel like they need to remove cap on conditions and reduce physical damage by 15%.

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Posted by: Alex Sanchez.6792

Alex Sanchez.6792

Anet already said they are working on this issue but it’s not easy to resolve.

It’s actually very easy to resolve. Up bleed stack cap on PvE mobs to 100 and the major part of the problem is fixed, should be very easy and fast since only someone has to type 100 instead of 25 somewhere in a piece of code. They could have done this weeks if not months ago.

… Or am I thinking to easy / logical now?

lol, nice sarcasm at the end there. (sarcasm)

If game devs just started tossing around code like this, balance of the game could be hit hard. Video games are very complex creations and very few fixes are simple.

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Posted by: munkiman.3068

munkiman.3068

I have to agree with all of this… The base health of dungeon mobs are far more than that of PVP players health pools, you simply can’t compare the 2. Condition builds now for PVE are uber weak in comparison to the health pools of most of even the trash mobs. Many hit so hard that even a high toughness vitality guardian can only take a few hits, so DOT is a pretty much required mechanic to have. I think overall PVE DOT should increase. PVP (although i don’t play much) seems fine based on watching streams.

[TAO] Founder/Owner and Administrator for the NSP Server Website

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Posted by: Bruno Sardine.2907

Bruno Sardine.2907

In PvP getting to the 25 bleed cap usually takes a bit of time and will only be doing 2500-ish per second for a little bit of time, before that even happens you’ll probably be facerolled by direct damage. Not to mention, there’s all sorts of condition removal so you’d be lucky to get that bleed stack high let alone last the full duration.

The 25 bleed cap also caps dps potential to that 2500-ish per second + whatever else we’re throwing it… that still pales in comparison to someone dealing direction damage since enemy defense is pretty much never > than a player’s power… The only exceptions to this are very few PvE cases like that one fight in CoE against that Icebrood boss.

If condition is what’s supposed to win the longer duration fights, but takes awhile to build up, then it should have a point where it exceeds direct damage. That doesn’t exist and the removing the caps (or making them really high) are an easy way to remove the otherwise restrictive barrier.

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Posted by: Jasher.6580

Jasher.6580

If condition is what’s supposed to win the longer duration fights, but takes awhile to build up, then it should have a point where it exceeds direct damage. That doesn’t exist and the removing the caps (or making them really high) are an easy way to remove the otherwise restrictive barrier.

This is a start, I am still worried however, how they are planning to handle how confusion will work on objects since objects don’t activate abilities. With the lack of feedback, I feel like they are just pushing this issue on the back burner.

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Posted by: Jasher.6580

Jasher.6580

I think overall PVE DOT should increase. PVP (although i don’t play much) seems fine based on watching streams.

It’s not just that the base damage should increase, I think there needs to be ways to bolster ways to administer the conditions as well. Particularly with confusion.

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Posted by: Latinkuro.9420

Latinkuro.9420

there’s already a long thread about this issue why start a new one ?
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/The-idea-behind-the-25-Bleed-limit-in-PvE/first#post686570

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Posted by: Jasher.6580

Jasher.6580

there’s already a long thread about this issue why start a new one ?
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/The-idea-behind-the-25-Bleed-limit-in-PvE/first#post686570

This thread is not just about bleeds.

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Posted by: Latinkuro.9420

Latinkuro.9420

there’s already a long thread about this issue why start a new one ?
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/The-idea-behind-the-25-Bleed-limit-in-PvE/first#post686570

This thread is not just about bleeds.

same thing mate, condition stacking is the main issue just as the other thread just because he focused on bleed don’t make a difference.

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Posted by: Jasher.6580

Jasher.6580

there’s already a long thread about this issue why start a new one ?
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/The-idea-behind-the-25-Bleed-limit-in-PvE/first#post686570

This thread is not just about bleeds.

same thing mate, condition stacking is the main issue just as the other thread just because he focused on bleed don’t make a difference.

This is not just about condition stacking, it’s also about the fundamental flaw behind confusion. Did you read the thread?

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Posted by: Jasher.6580

Jasher.6580

I think overall PVE DOT should increase. PVP (although i don’t play much) seems fine based on watching streams.

It should not only increase, but it should increase substantially. I really thought this patch would have addressed this very issue. I guess not.