Guild Wars 2

MF not broken. then i farming orr with full gear mf, and i saw ppl in my group without sigil of luck, i kick from pt ^^.

btw i don’t bother that much of what people wear, imo +18% magic find as a third stat i think it’s stupid that’s why i prefer superior runes of traveler instead and maybe an omnoberry bar sometimes.
i don’t care if my mates zerker or magic finder die, i’ll ress them in time, if i’m in a dungeon i know it will take sometimes to do it, so why to rush? i prefer not to enter than rushrun everything. but that’s is just me and my opinion.

Yay! It’s another one of those elitist threads.

Magic Find hasn’t impacted diddly squat with the groups I run with (mostly pugs). It’s felt this way ever since the day I started playing on release and up to now. The truth of the game play boils down to groups working together, understanding their skills and planning ahead. It’s all about coordination and less about stats.

What a rubbish topic.

It’s not harmful to the group that one person isn’t in BiS gear. If it truly was, every other MMO ever conceived ever would not allow dungeons/raids unless you had BiS gear. If anything, personally I’d rather have a group of MF gear users than a group primarily made of players who don’t know the content.

Personally, I would never pull such a dick move as running full MF without warning my group first. They should know whether they will be carrying me for me own personal benefit or not.

Lets put this into perspective.

As a hybrid shatter/staff Mesmer, I run full MF gear in fractals below 15, because there is no need to be all hardcore raw damage. After 15 or so though, just 5 AR isn’t going to cut it, so I swap out gear for another 10 and eat an omnomberry bar, and only swap to my damage set if the group’s DPS is pitiful. Regardless though, I still run full MF gear, and not even exotics. Just rares. I am quite open about it on my server and I make sure to tell people in my party. I do get ragers, but, guess what? the vast, vast majority of the time, I don’t die, and a lot of the time, save the wipe by mesmertanking. If we /do/ wipe, I’m usually the last one to die (assuming it wasn’t a planned wipe. Those I find creative ways to do it quickly lol).

What does this say about MF gear? It’s the player, not the gear. If you don’t suck at mechanics, you don’t suck at Guild Wars 2. If you complain about Magic Find, you probably do and need someone to carry you, so you use MF as a scapegoat to your own shortcomings.

By the way, you can, and I have, run Fractals naked as a group and still beat most of them with little difficulty.

Amadan.9451:

you can also blame berserker’s gear for not having good survivability… i had runs in dungeon with people who do high damage once in a while when they are not too busy being downed because they don’t have toughness or vitality…
i sometimes wear my carrion exotic armor with superior runes of traveler in it and i do damage and don’t die because i have an high amount of health, and i don’t want to be blamed because i don’t die.

Those people are also bad. If they run an Omnomberry Ghost, they won’t be downed. I run full zerker set warrior and I rarely go down and if I do, it was to my own mistake. With the amount of crit I have, along with 66% change to heal myself on crits, there is NO excuse for a zerker warrior to go down unless they are cheap or lazy.

MF is broken, it doesn’t affect chests and it should. it doesn’t affect bags and it should. it doesn’t give the bonus to the party and it should. It doesn’t increase the quality of the drops but increases the bad drops dramatically every time.

If someone is in full PVT gear then they do less damage making slower runs. Pretty selfish that they wear PVT gear so they supposedly die less often and save on repair costs at the expense of their team progressing through a dungeon at a quicker rate.

If someone is in full berserker gear then they receive more damage and will die more often than someone without. With them dying they won’t be putting out as much damage and negate any damage output increase by having berserker gear.

If someone is wearing greens and doing dungeons then they’re being selfish for not farming for better gear such as exotics. They’re just going to slow everyone down with their “inferior” stats.

Those that are anti-MF cannot use player skill as a defense against what I said since so many of you claim it doesn’t matter. Being able to read what attacks monsters will do and acting accordingly does not have a significant impact on survivability (sarcasm).

Ayrilana.1396:

If someone is in full PVT gear then they do less damage making slower runs. Pretty selfish that they wear PVT gear so they supposedly die less often and save on repair costs at the expense of their team progressing through a dungeon at a quicker rate.

If someone is in full berserker gear then they receive more damage and will die more often than someone without. With them dying they won’t be putting out as much damage and negate any damage output increase by having berserker gear.

If someone is wearing greens and doing dungeons then they’re being selfish for not farming for better gear such as exotics. They’re just going to slow everyone down with their “inferior” stats.

Those that are anti-MF cannot use player skill as a defense against what I said since so many of you claim it doesn’t matter. Being able to read what attacks monsters will do and acting accordingly does not have a significant impact on survivability (sarcasm).

At least each of those players you mentioned took 3 stats that assist in combat, helping their entire team. The magic find player only took 2 stats that help in combat and then 1 that helps only themselves, and no one else.

So yes, that does prove that of the lot, the magic find user is the most selfish. Thanks for pointing that out!

And yet you misread what I said and twisted it to your own opinion.

Ok seriously, this is beyond pathetic. Don’t want people in your group using MF gear? Then run with your guild or friends and stop grouping with randoms. Otherwise just suck it up and deal with whatever hand you are dealt. The system isn’t perfect, yes I know people are selfish but at the end of the day it’s a game and people will play it their way because it is designed to be played as such.

Loots, and rewards overall should be rewarded by using skills, not a stat, this is where I think ArenaNet failed. A loot increase stat shouldn’t even exist.

I don’t blame, and never will blame people for using Magic Find gear, the blame is something I will fill in a sack and hand over to ArenaNet.

I agree that MF was a bad idea. It is precisely opposed to everything that ANet says GW2 stands for – a community of gamers working together.

Ayrilana.1396:

If someone is in full PVT gear then they do less damage making slower runs. Pretty selfish that they wear PVT gear so they supposedly die less often and save on repair costs at the expense of their team progressing through a dungeon at a quicker rate.

If someone is in full berserker gear then they receive more damage and will die more often than someone without. With them dying they won’t be putting out as much damage and negate any damage output increase by having berserker gear.

If someone is wearing greens and doing dungeons then they’re being selfish for not farming for better gear such as exotics. They’re just going to slow everyone down with their “inferior” stats.

Those that are anti-MF cannot use player skill as a defense against what I said since so many of you claim it doesn’t matter. Being able to read what attacks monsters will do and acting accordingly does not have a significant impact on survivability (sarcasm).

Okay, so you already provided a counterargument to your first point with your second point: if that person’s alive they’re being useful.
Second one, they’re still dealing more damage than someone in Explorer’s even if they’re dropping quickly.
Third one, it’s very likely that the person could not AFFORD exotic yet, unlike an exotic Explorer’s who willingly gimped themselves when they obviously could afford an exotic set.

Having a significantly higher amount of health doesn’t make you harder to kill, and statistically increasing your damaging stats doesn’t make you kill things faster.
/sarcasm.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Ayrilana.1396:

If someone is in full PVT gear then they do less damage making slower runs. Pretty selfish that they wear PVT gear so they supposedly die less often and save on repair costs at the expense of their team progressing through a dungeon at a quicker rate.

If someone is in full berserker gear then they receive more damage and will die more often than someone without. With them dying they won’t be putting out as much damage and negate any damage output increase by having berserker gear.

If someone is wearing greens and doing dungeons then they’re being selfish for not farming for better gear such as exotics. They’re just going to slow everyone down with their “inferior” stats.

Those that are anti-MF cannot use player skill as a defense against what I said since so many of you claim it doesn’t matter. Being able to read what attacks monsters will do and acting accordingly does not have a significant impact on survivability (sarcasm).

Okay, so you already provided a counterargument to your first point with your second point: if that person’s alive they’re being useful.
Second one, they’re still dealing more damage than someone in Explorer’s even if they’re dropping quickly.
Third one, it’s very likely that the person could not AFFORD exotic yet, unlike an exotic Explorer’s who willingly gimped themselves when they obviously could afford an exotic set.

Having a significantly higher amount of health doesn’t make you harder to kill, and statistically increasing your damaging stats doesn’t make you kill things faster.
/sarcasm.

Hes right, pvt gear is helping the team TREMENDIOUSLY because this star player, has decided he wants power vit and tough, which infact, do this funny little thing that helps you NOT to DIE since DIEING STOPS YOU FROM DOING DAMAGE and power, infact increases your dps.

So that magnificent mesmer using p/v/t is infact HELPIN DA TEAMZ by NOT dieing thus creating the reality of: damaging stuff and staying alive to continue damaging stuff Dead people do this funny thing called “Not doing damage cuz their dead" Look it up, its very interesting. (Sarcasm)

edit: Even if the player wit p/v/t doesn’t die or get hit too often, he doesnt have to run away after his dodges are used up as much as a mf’er does thus *Still doing that funny old thing called “doing damage”

I have a confession to make too. Sometimes, I take bio breaks between pulls. Yeah, I know… It’s so selfish of me to take more time doing what I need to do when I KNOW that I’m taking more time off the run than the guy running full MF over ’zerkers, but what can I do? Sometimes, you just gotta go…

…or, maybe I just have no patience for people who complain about such trivialities. That might be it too.

Silentsins.3726:

I have a confession to make too. Sometimes, I take bio breaks between pulls. Yeah, I know… It’s so selfish of me to take more time doing what I need to do when I KNOW that I’m taking more time off the run than the guy running full MF over ’zerkers, but what can I do? Sometimes, you just gotta go…

…or, maybe I just have no patience for people who complain about such trivialities. That might be it too.

Thats a horrible comparison, urinating is somthing you need to do, it effects real life.

People are saying the game will be better without magic find, which is true, we have no problem with the poeple using it, we, atleast i dont use it because i think its time magic find is taken out, other games are already doing it (if you want a list, just let me know ill post you a list as proof) its just plain not fun.

Magic find = Not fun, selfish,basicly useless

Hence it should be taken out or replaced with temp buffs you can earn for doing special things (perhaps winning in wvw).

People arn’t so much complaining about magic find as suggestion that the game doesn’t need it and shouldnt have had it. Especially with a.nets design philosify and the fact that this mmo has a lot of innovative stuff.

Blissified.8369:

Silentsins.3726:

I have a confession to make too. Sometimes, I take bio breaks between pulls. Yeah, I know… It’s so selfish of me to take more time doing what I need to do when I KNOW that I’m taking more time off the run than the guy running full MF over ’zerkers, but what can I do? Sometimes, you just gotta go…

…or, maybe I just have no patience for people who complain about such trivialities. That might be it too.

Thats a horrible comparison, urinating is somthing you need to do, it effects real life.

People are saying the game will be better without magic find, which is true, we have no problem with the poeple using it, we, atleast i dont use it because i think its time magic find is taken out, other games are already doing it (if you want a list, just let me know ill post you a list as proof) its just plain not fun.

Magic find = Not fun, selfish,basicly useless

Hence it should be taken out or replaced with temp buffs you can earn for doing special things (perhaps winning in wvw).

People arn’t so much complaining about magic find as suggestion that the game doesn’t need it and shouldnt have had it. Especially with a.nets design philosify and the fact that this mmo has a lot of innovative stuff.

Pretty much this. Replacing full MF gear with a food or similar buff that gives equal MF or something like that would be a huge boon over the current, clunky system.

I don’t currently use MF, but I find the “selfish” MF user argument quite off, especially since many dungeon speed runners are the very definition of selfishness (builds and gear must be supposedly “efficient”, therefore mostly berserker, etc., thus not allowing people to play any other playstyle save that which they favor to clear the dungeon/fractal ASAP.) Thus, if you are going to speedrun things, you really don’t have the right to call others “selfish” for choosing whatever gear they want-I BET many MF gear users are not inherently selfish at all, but are just hoping for better drops, and surely some of them are great team players as well.

I actually did this over a month ago and have known the differences between the three sets for green and exotic rarities.

Between green armor (without runes) and accessories, the difference between berserker and explorer is 200 power and 24% critical damage. You do a little more damage but you receive the same amount of damage. If you’re willing to give up the 18% MF from explorers but still use MF accessories, the difference is then 129 power and 29% critical damage.

Between green armor (without runes) and accessories, the difference between knight and explorer is 605 toughness. You take a little less damage but you do the same damage. If you’re willing to give up the 18% MF from explorers but still use MF accessories, the difference is then 350 toughness.

Criticizing explorers because you take more damage is irrelevant since you’ll take the same damage with berserkers. Criticizing explorers because you’ll deal less damage is irrelevant since you deal the same damage as knights. You can’t compare exotic berserkers/knights to green explorers since a lot of people run dungeons in greens making the stat difference irrelevant unless you want to say people without exotics are being selfish too.

The only thing that you can argue is that it does neither and then it’s up to how much of a difference in damage dealt and mitigated. That’s up for someone else to figure out. I never cared for either side but was just shocked that people would blindly argue without even doing any research but instead basing their opinions on assumptions.

Ayrilana.1396:

Criticizing explorers because you take more damage is irrelevant since you’ll take the same damage with berserkers. Criticizing explorers because you’ll deal less damage is irrelevant since you deal the same damage as knights.

And yet the important part is that it’s worse than BOTH of them.
You could criticize a Knight’s user for doing less damage than a Berserker’s, and vice versa, but since Explorer’s is worse than either of them, it’s suddenly immune to that same criticism?

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Ayrilana.1396:

Criticizing explorers because you take more damage is irrelevant since you’ll take the same damage with berserkers. Criticizing explorers because you’ll deal less damage is irrelevant since you deal the same damage as knights.

And yet the important part is that it’s worse than BOTH of them.
You could criticize a Knight’s user for doing less damage than a Berserker’s, and vice versa, but since Explorer’s is worse than either of them, it’s suddenly immune to that same criticism?

How about you read my post further instead…

Ayrilana.1396:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Ayrilana.1396:

Criticizing explorers because you take more damage is irrelevant since you’ll take the same damage with berserkers. Criticizing explorers because you’ll deal less damage is irrelevant since you deal the same damage as knights.

And yet the important part is that it’s worse than BOTH of them.
You could criticize a Knight’s user for doing less damage than a Berserker’s, and vice versa, but since Explorer’s is worse than either of them, it’s suddenly immune to that same criticism?

How about you read my post further instead…

I did.
And the undeniable answer is that it is still worse than either, with absolutely no benefit for anyone but the user, thus is selfishly gimping yourself for your own profit.

Hickeroar.9734:

I hate MF. I won’t run anything with people who have it.

I will run with you i think mine must be around 10% i find other numbers to be way more important.

If i get any good gear well its just luck as how i look at it.

repost? old thread here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Confessions-of-a-Magic-Find-Leecher/first

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Ayrilana.1396:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Ayrilana.1396:

Criticizing explorers because you take more damage is irrelevant since you’ll take the same damage with berserkers. Criticizing explorers because you’ll deal less damage is irrelevant since you deal the same damage as knights.

And yet the important part is that it’s worse than BOTH of them.
You could criticize a Knight’s user for doing less damage than a Berserker’s, and vice versa, but since Explorer’s is worse than either of them, it’s suddenly immune to that same criticism?

How about you read my post further instead…

I did.
And the undeniable answer is that it is still worse than either, with absolutely no benefit for anyone but the user, thus is selfishly gimping yourself for your own profit.

And we’re right back around to my other point that I was making. You don’t know by how much in regards to damage dealt and damage mitigated. Going by stats alone doesn’t mean a thing. Once this has been figured out you then think about it in regards to the group and whether your lower damage output or mitigation has a significant impact on the group’s overall performance.

Ayrilana.1396:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Ayrilana.1396:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Ayrilana.1396:

Criticizing explorers because you take more damage is irrelevant since you’ll take the same damage with berserkers. Criticizing explorers because you’ll deal less damage is irrelevant since you deal the same damage as knights.

And yet the important part is that it’s worse than BOTH of them.
You could criticize a Knight’s user for doing less damage than a Berserker’s, and vice versa, but since Explorer’s is worse than either of them, it’s suddenly immune to that same criticism?

How about you read my post further instead…

I did.
And the undeniable answer is that it is still worse than either, with absolutely no benefit for anyone but the user, thus is selfishly gimping yourself for your own profit.

And we’re right back around to my other point that I was making. You don’t know by how much in regards to damage dealt and damage mitigated. Going by stats alone doesn’t mean a thing. Once this has been figured out you then think about it in regards to the group and whether your lower damage output or mitigation has a significant impact on the group’s overall performance.

How do stats not mean a thing?
Regardless of skill level, regardless of what you do, regardless of ANYTHING, if you’re in Berserker’s you WILL be doing more damage than in Explorer’s.
Period, end of story.
If I were to go without any armor at all, I would be severely worse. No matter my skill level, no matter what I’m doing, I would be worse off in combat, entirely on a statistical basis.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

How do stats not mean a thing?

Please re-read what I said. I’ve included the part of my post that you missed below.

Ayrilana.1396:

Going by stats alone doesn’t mean a thing.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Regardless of skill level, regardless of what you do, regardless of ANYTHING, if you’re in Berserker’s you WILL be doing more damage than in Explorer’s.
Period, end of story.

Yeah but by how much? Is the difference significant enough to matter? If so, where’s the evidence that it is?

gimmethegepgun.1284:

If I were to go without any armor at all, I would be severely worse. No matter my skill level, no matter what I’m doing, I would be worse off in combat, entirely on a statistical basis.

Yeah but that’s taking it to the incredible extreme. The difference between explorers to knights and explorers to berserkers isn’t that much. You have to test actual damage output and damage mitigation just to see whether the difference is significant to matter. You then account for whether this difference will impact the group significantly.

Ayrilana.1396:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

How do stats not mean a thing?

Please re-read what I said. I’ve included the part of my post that you missed below.

Ayrilana.1396:

Going by stats alone doesn’t mean a thing.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Regardless of skill level, regardless of what you do, regardless of ANYTHING, if you’re in Berserker’s you WILL be doing more damage than in Explorer’s.
Period, end of story.

Yeah but by how much? Is the difference significant enough to matter? If so, where’s the evidence that it is?

gimmethegepgun.1284:

If I were to go without any armor at all, I would be severely worse. No matter my skill level, no matter what I’m doing, I would be worse off in combat, entirely on a statistical basis.

So you’re saying that you’d be severely worse off with berserkers than knights? Berserkers and explorers have the save defensive stats. Knights and explorers have the same offensive stats too. So are you worse off for not doing enough damage as berserkers?

The crit damage alone, assuming 35% crit chance (the lowest you can get with full exotic Berserker’s, both armor and jewelry) is on average a 14.3% damage increase. This rises as Precision rises, so someone specced into their Precision line, or with Fury, gets even more from it. That’s not even including the large Power bonus.
That is a very large difference.
Just adding Fury (to both the Berserker’s and the Explorer’s) increases that to a 20.7% increase over Explorer’s.

And I really don’t even know what you’re talking about in that last part.
I’m fairly worse off for survivability in Berserker’s compared to Knight’s, and fairly worse off for damage in Knight’s compared to Berserker’s, but I’m worse off in BOTH categories in Explorer’s.

and also, why run a dungeon at all? if not for loot, why do it? i think for fun? and has the fun something to do with i do more damage than you?
and also, the magic find user while standing still do damage as a non magic find user still standing, the difference in effectiveness is minutes in the total time spent in the run…
probably seconds during mob swarms…

if magic find wouldn’t exist (and sometimes i think it would be nice) than probably most of the magic find user would pick up some other reason to hate people who run dungeon with…

“you don’t need thoughness you are an elementalist stay far away and nuke them all already”
“why did you run dungeon with healing stats there is no even a trinity hear we can heal ourselves you selfish leecher”
“why pick a ranger profession if you want to use the greatsword, you have to use a long bow and a torch on second hand so you can light your arrows you noob”
“why use short bow and longbow one of your set must be short ranged”

this could be just examples (i’ve been told one of the four though you pick)!

MF is for one person only…
so…. if MF share and stack up for party, you should be no problem with it, right??

That’s one of the solution.

You people seriously need to learn2play. A MF user isn’t any more “dead weight” than a number of other players. Why isn’t there a topic about all sub-optimal builds in the game? Why aren’t you complaining about the guy potentially running Arah in blue lvl 40 gear because he’s saving up for a legendary? Ain’t selfish enough for you? And what the heck is wrong with being selfish? It’s human. You spent $50 on this game. That money could’ve saved a child from starvation. You played 600h+. You could’ve spend that time volunteering to help the homeless. Why didn’t you if you are all so selfless and always looking out for others? Why do you live in a nice place, own shiney things and eat good food? How do you live with yourselves knowing how selfish you are? And, guess what, this stuff actually matters. As opposed to smb being a bit less useful in an online game. Yet, you seem to find mf users too “selfish” for your liking. Hypocrites.

TWMagimay.9057:

You people seriously need to learn2play. A MF user isn’t any more “dead weight” than a number of other players. Why isn’t there a topic about all sub-optimal builds in the game? Why aren’t you complaining about the guy potentially running Arah in blue lvl 40 gear because he’s saving up for a legendary? Ain’t selfish enough for you? And what the heck is wrong with being selfish? It’s human. You spent $50 on this game. That money could’ve saved a child from starvation. You played 600h+. You could’ve spend that time volunteering to help the homeless. Why didn’t you if you are all so selfless and always looking out for others? Why do you live in a nice place, own shiney things and eat good food? How do you live with yourselves knowing how selfish you are? And, guess what, this stuff actually matters. As opposed to smb being a bit less useful in an online game. Yet, you seem to find mf users too “selfish” for your liking. Hypocrites.

A MF user is more deadweight than he would be if he was using Berserker’s or Knight’s, because he is either dealing less or taking more.
And what’s wrong with being selfish is that you’re in a group.
So if someone was pure, 100% leeching, contributing precisely nothing, while everyone else did all the work, and this person still got rewarded for it, you wouldn’t have a problem with it? Not talking dungeon here, because they’d probably just restart and kick the guy, but in, say, Fort Aspenwood in GW1, when you don’t really have the luxury of doing that. That person is being rewarded for not doing the work, and everyone else suffers for it because they aren’t doing anything.
When someone brings Explorer’s, they aren’t carrying as much of their weight as they should be, yet being rewarded more than everyone else for doing so.

Again this topic, and with the exact same OP (based on that reddit post) I wish we would have an official answer on MF so all these would stop…

The point is, you lose out on a stat if you go full MF. In guild groups, this is easily offset by coordination and skill. Secondly, most MF gear is covered with power/precision to make the leech even half-useful, leading to very glassy cannons. Again, in a guild group, that shouldn’t be an issue.

A PUG can only handle 1, maybe 2 glass cannons. Two PUGgers with MF will severely jeopardize the chance for success in most dungeons.

i think the problem is that people play this game for win, and loot, and not for fun.
Like this is a job or something.
I have done dungeons in gw1 lots of times with guild people who could run any build they wanted and who could play any way they wanted, and we had a great time.
It wasnt fast, but it was fun.

i done ac once sofar, and i have never seen such a race to the end ever before in a game.
Nice if its your firsttime, and you die multiple times because everyone is in a hurry to get more more more tokens and doesnt even bother to explain anything.

i probably wont do pug dungeons ever again.

I dont realy care if something drops or not, and if it takes 1 or 2 hours.
I want to relax and have some fun after my real daytime job is done.

innocens.1582:

i think the problem is that people play this game for win, and loot, and not for fun.
Like this is a job or something.
I have done dungeons in gw1 lots of times with guild people who could run any build they wanted and who could play any way they wanted, and we had a great time.
It wasnt fast, but it was fun.

i done ac once sofar, and i have never seen such a race to the end ever before in a game.
Nice if its your firsttime, and you die multiple times because everyone is in a hurry to get more more more tokens and doesnt even bother to explain anything.

i probably wont do pug dungeons ever again.

I dont realy care if something drops or not, and if it takes 1 or 2 hours.
I want to relax and have some fun after my real daytime job is done.

I fully understand. I enjoy dungeons far more if we kill the trash too, even if they don’t give that many rewards.

Tolmos.8395:

alcopaul.2156:

Ayrilana.1396:

Prove by numbers in stats, damage output, damage mitigation, etc.

Explorers Gear (Power, Precision, MF) vs Berserkers (Power, Precision, +Critical Damage)

In this situation, the MF user is losing 34% increased damage on critical hits. I repeat: 34%. And what is gained from it? A personal ability to gain more loot.

Regardless of what type of gear you are wearing, one of 3 stats is removed ENTIRELY from the gear in the place of magic find. That is a significant loss, no matter how you look at it.

I suppose, if magic find gear is here to stay, then an inspect option really would be best. :-\ At least then groups can know what they are getting into.

Whilst I agree an inspect issue would have some use, it wouldn’t really do as much as you think.. because as soon as that feature entered into game, those ignorant and selfish players would manipulate the very core of the feature.. they would simply swap gear out to get into group and as soon as the party enters/begins or even just before, then they would swap back to MF.. the smart ones will have also transmuted their gear to look identical… so idea is sound implementation relatively easy but benefit is more tricksy to maintain.

long story short:

We’ll never agree on this due to stubbornness on both sides.
No one is offering up better solutions and instead focusing on how selfish others are and thus walking into the flawed logical response of

“well telling me not to wear it is selfish too”

The best way of dealing with this is to just try and find ways of ascertaining who is wearing MF gear, and then form groups which are explicitly asked to not do it. And if they scam you, blacklist them and make sure they’re refused from other groups…
NOT for using MF gear alone, but by deliberately being a muppet and using it in a group that doesn’t ask for it instead of finding another group.

As it is though, we’re NEVER going to reach a agreeable conclusion here… there’s too much ignorance going on.

Ayrilana.1396:

And we’re right back around to my other point that I was making. You don’t know by how much in regards to damage dealt and damage mitigated. Going by stats alone doesn’t mean a thing. Once this has been figured out you then think about it in regards to the group and whether your lower damage output or mitigation has a significant impact on the group’s overall performance.

From a post I made on another thread about it, I doubt anything changed since then:

Explorer’s:
Power: 698 = 1614 Total (916 is base)
Precision: 698 = ~33% crit chance
Berserker’s:
Power: 1003 (30% more power) = 1919 Total (~16% higher power)
Precision: 698 = ~33% crit chance
Crit Damage: 62% = 212% crit damage
Let’s take a dagger for the calculation with an average weapon damage of 952. Also let’s attack a target with 2600 armor (the armor that tooltips compare damage against). Also, let’s take a skill with 1.0 coefficient for easier calculations.
Damage: Damage done = (weapon damage) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)
Damage with MF = 952*1614*1/2600=590 damage
Damage with Berserker = 952*1919*1/2600=702 damage
Now both have 33% chance of being critical so our total average damage is:
(<Non-critical*2><critical>) / 3
MF Critical: 590*150%=885
Berserker Critical: 702*212%=1488
Total Average damage with MF: (5902885)/3=688,3 dps*
Total Average damage with Berserker: (7022+1488)/3=984 dps*

Source: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Item_nomenclature

Blissified.8369:

People are saying the game will be better without magic find, which is true, we have no problem with the poeple using it, we, atleast i dont use it because i think its time magic find is taken out, other games are already doing it (if you want a list, just let me know ill post you a list as proof) its just plain not fun.

Magic find = Not fun, selfish,basicly useless

You don’t mind other people using it, yet you call it selfish in a thread whose entire premise was to equate MF users to leeches. Riiigghtt.

Personally, I’m perfectly fine with current implementation. You can call it “not fun” if you want, because that’s you’re opinion. Besides, you don’t have any other reasons that aren’t equally paper-thin as to why it should be removed. That being said, your opinion isn’t special.

If you just didn’t like the system, it would be enough to not participate it on your characters. That’s not what these threads are about though…

Hellkaiser.6025:

The best way of dealing with this is to just try and find ways of ascertaining who is wearing MF gear, and then form groups which are explicitly asked to not do it. And if they scam you, blacklist them and make sure they’re refused from other groups…
NOT for using MF gear alone, but by deliberately being a muppet and using it in a group that doesn’t ask for it instead of finding another group.

This thread alone is a prime reason why they SHOULDN’T do an inspect feature.

maddoctor.2738:

Ayrilana.1396:

And we’re right back around to my other point that I was making. You don’t know by how much in regards to damage dealt and damage mitigated. Going by stats alone doesn’t mean a thing. Once this has been figured out you then think about it in regards to the group and whether your lower damage output or mitigation has a significant impact on the group’s overall performance.

From a post I made on another thread about it, I doubt anything changed since then:

Explorer’s:
Power: 698 = 1614 Total (916 is base)
Precision: 698 = ~33% crit chance
Berserker’s:
Power: 1003 (30% more power) = 1919 Total (~16% higher power)
Precision: 698 = ~33% crit chance
Crit Damage: 62% = 212% crit damage
Let’s take a dagger for the calculation with an average weapon damage of 952. Also let’s attack a target with 2600 armor (the armor that tooltips compare damage against). Also, let’s take a skill with 1.0 coefficient for easier calculations.
Damage: Damage done = (weapon damage) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)
Damage with MF = 952*1614*1/2600=590 damage
Damage with Berserker = 952*1919*1/2600=702 damage
Now both have 33% chance of being critical so our total average damage is:
(<Non-critical*2><critical>) / 3
MF Critical: 590*150%=885
Berserker Critical: 702*212%=1488
Total Average damage with MF: (5902885)/3=688,3 dps*
Total Average damage with Berserker: (7022+1488)/3=984 dps*

Source: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Item_nomenclature

That entire formula is missing not only the player skill, but player uptime. That’s assuming both players are playing at optimum skill, and shows you’re grasping at straws saying that in “all premium conditions, this is what will happen”. I’m not gonna argue that, because you’re right.

However!

The real world is not all premium conditions. As a full-set MF user (bite me) I can safely say I’ve out-DPS’d half to two thirds of the people I pug fractals with, as well as I am consistently the last to die in unplanned wipes, and I frequently wind up tanking as a Mesmer (again, in full MF gear) because people don’t know how to fractals. Not only can I tank and survive, we down the target.

So what if ‘you’ do less DPS? It’s not like you’re doing NO DPS. If you want premium everything, run with friends. You can’t control what other people do, so don’t try to. QQing to ANet about it is an attempt at controlling, by the way.

tl;dr:
You’re ignoring skill to make yourself look better. Stahp ;~;

Hellkaiser.6025:

The best way of dealing with this is to just try and find ways of ascertaining who is wearing MF gear, and then form groups which are explicitly asked to not do it. And if they scam you, blacklist them and make sure they’re refused from other groups…
NOT for using MF gear alone, but by deliberately being a muppet and using it in a group that doesn’t ask for it instead of finding another group.

As it is though, we’re NEVER going to reach a agreeable conclusion here… there’s too much ignorance going on.

That’s the exact reason they should not give an inspect feature. The people who want to play their way will not be allowed because the control freaks will run all the groups.

Sawnic.6795:

maddoctor.2738:

Ayrilana.1396:

And we’re right back around to my other point that I was making. You don’t know by how much in regards to damage dealt and damage mitigated. Going by stats alone doesn’t mean a thing. Once this has been figured out you then think about it in regards to the group and whether your lower damage output or mitigation has a significant impact on the group’s overall performance.

From a post I made on another thread about it, I doubt anything changed since then:

Explorer’s:
Power: 698 = 1614 Total (916 is base)
Precision: 698 = ~33% crit chance
Berserker’s:
Power: 1003 (30% more power) = 1919 Total (~16% higher power)
Precision: 698 = ~33% crit chance
Crit Damage: 62% = 212% crit damage
Let’s take a dagger for the calculation with an average weapon damage of 952. Also let’s attack a target with 2600 armor (the armor that tooltips compare damage against). Also, let’s take a skill with 1.0 coefficient for easier calculations.
Damage: Damage done = (weapon damage) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)
Damage with MF = 952*1614*1/2600=590 damage
Damage with Berserker = 952*1919*1/2600=702 damage
Now both have 33% chance of being critical so our total average damage is:
(<Non-critical*2><critical>) / 3
MF Critical: 590*150%=885
Berserker Critical: 702*212%=1488
Total Average damage with MF: (5902885)/3=688,3 dps*
Total Average damage with Berserker: (7022+1488)/3=984 dps*

Source: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Item_nomenclature

That entire formula is missing not only the player skill, but player uptime. That’s assuming both players are playing at optimum skill, and shows you’re grasping at straws saying that in “all premium conditions, this is what will happen”. I’m not gonna argue that, because you’re right.

However!

The real world is not all premium conditions. As a full-set MF user (bite me) I can safely say I’ve out-DPS’d half to two thirds of the people I pug fractals with, as well as I am consistently the last to die in unplanned wipes, and I frequently wind up tanking as a Mesmer (again, in full MF gear) because people don’t know how to fractals. Not only can I tank and survive, we down the target.

So what if ‘you’ do less DPS? It’s not like you’re doing NO DPS. If you want premium everything, run with friends. You can’t control what other people do, so don’t try to. QQing to ANet about it is an attempt at controlling, by the way.

tl;dr:
You’re ignoring skill to make yourself look better. Stahp ;~;

Yup, this is what I was talking about XD

Because of players like mr “bite me” here, we’ll never reach any sort of middle ground or understanding, it works as he wants it to and thus any and all suggested changes which go against these wishes are “the work of the DEVIL!!!”

The real fact of the matter here is if there was no MF stat we could instead change said stat into something “outwardly” worthwhile and also warrant a moderate increase in ALL drops but nope… the response is that their skill is more important and bad players will still wipe in great gear etc etc etc etc etc etc ad tedium… which isn’t wrong, just not the point of the matter and a different argument altogether really.

The argument at least I feel should be “why should I NOT use MF if THIS ABOVE POST is the attitude players will have” which is again where things lead to and thus at that point why bother with something that’s not that powerful in terms of scaling like healing power when MF is more widely used?

Heck lets just replace healing power and toughness etc with MF and restructure all the stats on sets to compensate… oh yeah, cos if everyone has MF the level of the playing field changes if you will, and thus it may as well not exist… parodox FTW!

There is a lot more selfish behaviour then magic find, i.e. uncooperative players, lack of communication, arrogance etc. Magic find just reduces your “survivability”, so if you are good at surviving, it is fine.

Lafiel.9372:

There is a lot more selfish behaviour then magic find, i.e. uncooperative players, lack of communication, arrogance etc. Magic find just reduces your “survivability”, so if you are good at surviving, it is fine.

If you’re fine with surviving without Knight’s, take Berserker’s instead.
Explorer’s doesn’t just reduce your survivability compared to Knight’s, it also reduces your damage compared to Berserker’s.

Sawnic.6795:

That’s the exact reason they should not give an inspect feature. The people who want to play their way will not be allowed because the control freaks will run all the groups.

I don’t like when a group starts crap like “level 80’s only” in their lfg, but in a popular game as much as this is to be loath… there will ALWAYS be another group that won’t be asking for level 80’s only. With some luck the changes to the LFG feature will help to create groups faster and more reliably for all content. It then is no wild stretch of the imagination to say they couldn’t add filtering options to said content, one of which
could easily be a “no MF gear” filter so you’re added with folks who aren’t using it. Likewise for every player that hates and wants to avoid MF there will be plenty using it and thus you’ll simply (and without friction or embarrassment) be able to join one that allows it, no mess, no fuss and no problem right?

What I’m worried about is if this will become a typical WOW “MS>OS need before greed” argument, the likes of which I saw first hand when I suggested something similar for their LFG system, there would be no real reason to hate on a filtering system or alternate loot rules queue, aside from the vapid “queues would be longer” and this led me quickly to a conclusion that it was just players who got their jollies from annoying other players over loot that opposed it, at least I did when no one would answer me with a rational reason why the suggestion was bad.

If said suggestion would lead to a general “MF not allowed” environment, well then maybe the stat in itself just isn’t popular enough to warrant it existing, and it should be replaced in favor of OVERALL loot increases. Why would anyone oppose that though? everyone gets more? you get more stats, everyone gets more loot? you’re not in competition with other players for loot as it’s all personal in this game anyways, so why is it SO important that you receive more rewards over others?

Hellkaiser.6025:

Sawnic.6795:

maddoctor.2738:

Ayrilana.1396:

And we’re right back around to my other point that I was making. You don’t know by how much in regards to damage dealt and damage mitigated. Going by stats alone doesn’t mean a thing. Once this has been figured out you then think about it in regards to the group and whether your lower damage output or mitigation has a significant impact on the group’s overall performance.

From a post I made on another thread about it, I doubt anything changed since then:

Explorer’s:
Power: 698 = 1614 Total (916 is base)
Precision: 698 = ~33% crit chance
Berserker’s:
Power: 1003 (30% more power) = 1919 Total (~16% higher power)
Precision: 698 = ~33% crit chance
Crit Damage: 62% = 212% crit damage
Let’s take a dagger for the calculation with an average weapon damage of 952. Also let’s attack a target with 2600 armor (the armor that tooltips compare damage against). Also, let’s take a skill with 1.0 coefficient for easier calculations.
Damage: Damage done = (weapon damage) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)
Damage with MF = 952*1614*1/2600=590 damage
Damage with Berserker = 952*1919*1/2600=702 damage
Now both have 33% chance of being critical so our total average damage is:
(<Non-critical*2><critical>) / 3
MF Critical: 590*150%=885
Berserker Critical: 702*212%=1488
Total Average damage with MF: (5902885)/3=688,3 dps*
Total Average damage with Berserker: (7022+1488)/3=984 dps*

Source: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Item_nomenclature

That entire formula is missing not only the player skill, but player uptime. That’s assuming both players are playing at optimum skill, and shows you’re grasping at straws saying that in “all premium conditions, this is what will happen”. I’m not gonna argue that, because you’re right.

However!

The real world is not all premium conditions. As a full-set MF user (bite me) I can safely say I’ve out-DPS’d half to two thirds of the people I pug fractals with, as well as I am consistently the last to die in unplanned wipes, and I frequently wind up tanking as a Mesmer (again, in full MF gear) because people don’t know how to fractals. Not only can I tank and survive, we down the target.

So what if ‘you’ do less DPS? It’s not like you’re doing NO DPS. If you want premium everything, run with friends. You can’t control what other people do, so don’t try to. QQing to ANet about it is an attempt at controlling, by the way.

tl;dr:
You’re ignoring skill to make yourself look better. Stahp ;~;

Yup, this is what I was talking about XD

Because of players like mr “bite me” here, we’ll never reach any sort of middle ground or understanding, it works as he wants it to and thus any and all suggested changes which go against these wishes are “the work of the DEVIL!!!”

The real fact of the matter here is if there was no MF stat we could instead change said stat into something “outwardly” worthwhile and also warrant a moderate increase in ALL drops but nope… the response is that their skill is more important and bad players will still wipe in great gear etc etc etc etc etc etc ad tedium… which isn’t wrong, just not the point of the matter and a different argument altogether really.

The argument at least I feel should be “why should I NOT use MF if THIS ABOVE POST is the attitude players will have” which is again where things lead to and thus at that point why bother with something that’s not that powerful in terms of scaling like healing power when MF is more widely used?

Heck lets just replace healing power and toughness etc with MF and restructure all the stats on sets to compensate… oh yeah, cos if everyone has MF the level of the playing field changes if you will, and thus it may as well not exist… parodox FTW!

Feel free to read my other posts in this thread. I have a full DPS set I use, too.

Hellkaiser.6025:

Sawnic.6795:

That’s the exact reason they should not give an inspect feature. The people who want to play their way will not be allowed because the control freaks will run all the groups.

I don’t like when a group starts crap like “level 80’s only” in their lfg, but in a popular game as much as this is to be loath… there will ALWAYS be another group that won’t be asking for level 80’s only. With some luck the changes to the LFG feature will help to create groups faster and more reliably for all content. It then is no wild stretch of the imagination to say they couldn’t add filtering options to said content, one of which
could easily be a “no MF gear” filter so you’re added with folks who aren’t using it. Likewise for every player that hates and wants to avoid MF there will be plenty using it and thus you’ll simply (and without friction or embarrassment) be able to join one that allows it, no mess, no fuss and no problem right?

What I’m worried about is if this will become a typical WOW “MS>OS need before greed” argument, the likes of which I saw first hand when I suggested something similar for their LFG system, there would be no real reason to hate on a filtering system or alternate loot rules queue, aside from the vapid “queues would be longer” and this led me quickly to a conclusion that it was just players who got their jollies from annoying other players over loot that opposed it, at least I did when no one would answer me with a rational reason why the suggestion was bad.

If said suggestion would lead to a general “MF not allowed” environment, well then maybe the stat in itself just isn’t popular enough to warrant it existing, and it should be replaced in favor of OVERALL loot increases. Why would anyone oppose that though? everyone gets more? you get more stats, everyone gets more loot? you’re not in competition with other players for loot as it’s all personal in this game anyways, so why is it SO important that you receive more rewards over others?

The same argument can be used on DPS. Why is it so important you try to out-DPS the rest of the group?

Sawnic.6795:

That entire formula is missing not only the player skill, but player uptime. That’s assuming both players are playing at optimum skill, and shows you’re grasping at straws saying that in “all premium conditions, this is what will happen”. I’m not gonna argue that, because you’re right.

You are right, a bad MF player will be EVEN WORSE to a team, given he will also be dead. It’s funny how the only argument pro MFers use is the “I can outdps others”… you might be able to, the majority cannot.

Sawnic.6795:

The real world is not all premium conditions. As a full-set MF user (bite me) I can safely say I’ve out-DPS’d half to two thirds of the people I pug fractals with, as well as I am consistently the last to die in unplanned wipes, and I frequently wind up tanking as a Mesmer (again, in full MF gear) because people don’t know how to fractals. Not only can I tank and survive, we down the target.

Care to show us how you “measured” that you out-DPS’d half to two thirds of the people you run Fractals with? Last I checked there was no DPS meter (and that’s good), there is no way to judge it and you know it. Also, how did you know the others weren’t also MF users? I bet you can’t say that either. Also, maybe you die last because you are hiding behind everyone else and your low dps doesn’t draw enough aggro? Haven’t thought of that either?