Guild Wars 2

Hi!
So here’s my point of view of why GW2 isn’t exactly hitting the spot. These days, alot of posts are referring to bad pvp designs and an increasingly poor game experiences and general boredom with playing the game (pvp and pve both). And mind, the game is only just released.

So here is the bottom line: “If it isn’t broke, don’t fix it!”. All devs seem to forget this simple rule sometime(s) during their career. Gw1 in many ways had a perfect(ish) skill system from a players point of view. Gw2’s system is very very far from ok. Hence, I feel the rule has been broken. I can’t see the point in hopeing for possible future updates/expasions to fix this, since it lies in the core design of the game and most likely won’t be changed unless it is pointed out as a problem. I hope this post can help rectify this Mind that the system has indeed introduced some good things aswell. 10 skills instead of 8, locked healing skill (nessisary now that the triad is gone), and perhaps even the utility skill vs. weapon skill is a good idea… if not still very restrictive.

Problem: Locking skills into certain weapons is restrictive. End of story. Traits, weaponswap and so on does not fix this issue.
Solution: unlock the skill-bar 2-5 (and 1 to some extent)
Proposal (example):
skillslot 1. Our “autoattack”. Each weapon should have atleast 2 options per weapon in this slot. An example could be mesmer’s scepter:Either winds of chaos or the ether chain. Heck, even the GS attack could fit. And vice versa. Why? It brings diversity and lets you build your char the way you want. This is doable with neerly all “caster” weapons i belive. The “physical” weapons then? well, could do with more diversity aswell, either by adding a new chain or as I’ll discuss later, adding effects to offhands. Some chains/attacks are transferrable, if only needing abit of visual tweaking though.
So skillslot 1 is locked as a viable attack, but still customizable. This is important to ensure that all classes and builds will allways have an ablility to be somewhat effective, regardless of the situation (atleast in pve).

Skillslot 2-5: !Free those skills! Let the inspiration, feeling, group composition, desire, rp-elements, whatever, be your guide. From a players point of view, there is absolutely no -need- to restrict these. From a dev’s point of view, I see the point… control and balance. However, this is where we, as players, can involve ourselves and choose how we want to play. Support? pick support skills (you still have #1, so you can’t be completely useless), glass cannon? forsake all defence and go with dmg skills and so on… Again, the physical weapons (warrior is particularly intricate in this respect) are abit on the low side with alternatives. Obviously if you are weilding a riffle, “stab and bleed” might be abit off However, it is fairly simple to rectify. And really, why can’t a ranger use whirling defence with a GS?
Do the above and behold: Fun is back in the game… builds are back… and the world of Gw2 just got loads more interresting.
Continued in next post

But what about my off hand? no function anymore? Well, my proposal is to give #1 an added effect, depending on your off hand. Example: Guardian using torch in off hand=increased burn damage or duration, or improves virtue of justice. Mesmer using focus= #1 adds 1confusion, or increase confusion dmg or duration. In other words, offhand improves your #1 or your class specific mechanic, giving you an additional layer of building and improving your char. 2-handers might not have this diversity, but can get a slight buff to even things out.

So this is meerly an example of a possible fix to a numbing problem. The reason this is not in the suggestions forum, is that I would like to see a discussion concerning the locked skillsystem as it stands today. The suggestion is meerly to show that there are ample ways to change it to the better for the players.
In my humble opinon, a rehaul of the skillsystem has the propable positive sideeffect of fixing other issues aswell, besides acctually making the game better oh so many ways. PvP is dead boring? Well, won’t this perhaps help quite abit?

Yes, releasing the system isn’t without it’s woes… However, I think I prefer a metagame that fluxuates rather than stalemates. I’d more than happily say “bye bye” to seasonal evens to have a team work on balancing. (And let’s face it, Anet won’t make much cash on events anyways if no one is playing when the seasons hit)

I want this game to succeed. I want to be drawn in, and to think creatively to succeed. In my mind though, the current skill system is a slow but undeniable killer.

Right then. feel free to comment on everything. Not native to the language, so please forgive mistakes on that part. If nothing else, than simply give your view of the locked skill system as it stands today. And if you like it, say why but also, decide if you would oppose change.
Thanks for reading.

(don’t you just hate looking at what you wrote, and knowing that you wanted to say so much more, but just can’t find the words. I do)

You presented a problem " These days, alot of posts are referring to bad pvp designs and an increasingly poor game experiences and general boredom with playing the game (pvp and pve both). And mind, the game is only just released."

You also presented a half thought through solution “Unlock skill bar 2-5” (I say half thought through not because you lack explanation, but because you lack anything to do with any kind of proof why this will change the status quo).

So say this gets put into the works and gets released and people are playing it. I guarantee that you will have the same threads “So and so is so OP because of this and that skill in their skill bar”, “So and so class needs more weapons added, buffed”, “I don’t know things are just so ‘meh’ and easy now!”, “OMG OMG THINGS ARE SOOO HARD NOW!!!”.

It doesn’t matter what these whiny threads say in the forums, at least not for the time being. Why? Might you ask, well if you have seen any MMOs released in the past 7 years, you would see a disturbing trend. Complaining. I think the so called “MMO Player Base” now a days is made of a bunch of casual gamers who come from single player environments – they see the devs actually respond to some legitimate issues, so they got their inch, now they try to take a mile. This happens especially at new releases. My view on this is, if you think there is poor design, point it out – but i guarantee that the developers aren’t going to change their core game design based on a 16 year old’s 5 minute evaluation of their multiple years worth of work.

Guild Wars 1 has a system that works for Guild Wars 1, Guild Wars 2 has a system that works for Guild Wars 2. The “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” quote is used when no progress is required in an area, thus, minimal effort = maximum wanted results.

I don’t understand why people say “omg game has all these complaints and it just released”, I don’t think you understand, this isn’t a subscription based game – so let the complainers move on to whatever they like, and lets have a good player base that LIKES GW2’s core design.

Those are interesting propositions, but why did you feel the need to create a new topic instead of posting into the former discussion on this exact subject ?
( https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Will-Combat-Mechanics-be-deeper/676612 , same page )

The more we regroup this kind of precise feedback on mechanics topic, the more visibility to devs

Ahm.3952:

Problem: Locking skills into certain weapons is restrictive. End of story.

Question: ok it is restrictive yes, but why is it bad and needs to be fixed?

@Kineticdamage
I read your post, but thought it was more specific to mechanics that deepen the current system, rather than changing it. I see now though, that there are a few answers also related to my point of view, and I’ll scoop by and add a reply :-)

@BrinkMcThornbody
I hope the post didn’t come off as whiney, cause that wasn’t the point. Personally I fell that anyone who takes the time to write a post about something that they find a problem are to be taken seriously (with the odd exception). We all want a good game afterall, and as such all player experiences and opinions are valid, including yours and mine. But I suppose thats worth post on forum behaviour in itself.
The “if it isn’t broke, don’t fix it” comes to mind in that I would acctually prefer Gw1’s system over Gw2’s in Gw2, but I don’t think thats a constructive discussion

Anyways, am I to understand that you would oppose change to the skill system because the community would simply present different complaints? Or have I missed the point?

Heh, and I do so wish I could proove that I am right in suggesting this kind of change, but sadly thats not possible as there are no (to my knowledge) valid surveys regarding this subject. The only proof I can give is my own experience and ideas as to what I would find better.
I think bugs are probably some of the few proovable issues when it comes to games
@stof
I find myself not playing the game like I want to, rather I’m feeling I’m playing the game like someone else intended me to. If that makes any sence. There are usually alot of skills that I would rather use than the ones I’m forced to use. And I like to be creative, which can be hard under precent cicumstances. Was it the Gw2 manifesto that proclaimed that everything was thought and re-thought i terms on the “fun-factor”? I don’t find this system fun tbh, hence I opt it to be fixed

(thanks, because yes, your suggestion is great imo)

I honestly have to say I disagree with your position on this situation. A change is IMHO not required for the weapon skills as they are.

In the case of many other MMOs you have a list of skills that you can associate with your skill bar. Sometimes (but only sometimes) were skills specifically associated with specific weapons. Now, since skills had positives and negatives, most worked out which skills were the best to always have available regardless of weapon causing characters of a specific class to operate in a somewhat similar manner.

I feel the weapon skill structure in GW2 is clever and provides significant diversity to game play amongst the different characters. It also reinforces that the weapons themselves are different. It allows people to carry different weapons to offer different skills to allow them to play the way they want rather then everyone using varied weapons with the same skills. On my warrior, I feel my character operate differently whether I’m dual wielding swords or dual wielding axes or carrying a sword and a shield, etc. Why? Because my skills reinforce that “Hey, this is what I’m using, this is what these weapons are capable of in my hands”.

IMHO, the system now isn’t broken and doesn’t need a rethink or retool to improve it. I’m not saying some balance tweaking isn’t necessary but that’s different from a complete system change like you suggest. There are tons of other games that offer that type of system (use whatever skills you want in whatever slot), the weapon associated skills is something that makes this game unique in the MMO world and for many of us a lot of fun.

I swap weapons to change skills, and if the situation needs, prior to getting into a battle , I’ll completely change my weapon set and change my play style to accommodate the situation. Changing to what you suggest would turn the game into more of a face roll style of play where now you have to consider what you’re using and why you’re using it. So, in the end, I have to disagree with the proposed change to the system.

I honestly think this problem will erode itself as they add utility/elite/healing skills with future content.

The weapon skills aren’t as restrictive as people claim given the wide variety of weapon combos we have.

the problem is the second part of the skill bar, the one we CAN customize just doesn’t have as deep of an effect on our game as it should.

GW2 has a much bigger player base the GW1,

GW has the same problem even MMO does when it launches compared to WoW they have alot less content at launch because WoW has been building content for 7 years

I sort of agree with the OP to some extend of allowing players to have a customizable skill bar.

Well. If you look at games like Dota 2 and League, their skills are mostly locked into place on each hero, but there is a difference here; that is, players have to stick to playing with 1-2 set of core weapon skill builds per class in GW2 while you can pick from like 50+ characters in Dota or League (more than the 8 classes).

Plus, the way GW2 is setup means that you are only adjusting the stats which does not equal to having a uniquely new skills because of the stats change. An actually unique weapon skills is one that simply varies upon the complexity of how it’s skill effect works (ie. a knock back that causes your foe to cripple if he/she is knocked into a wall, and a knock back that is triggered by blocking…. those are two types of different skill but both are subjected to knock backs).

So let truth be told, the skill mechanics in this game is much different from RTS games in too many key areas to allow the combat to be in a similar combat mode as games like Dota 2 or League. For example, you can do just about 90% of GW2 combat by pressing skills instead of juking, taking prefect advantage of maps, etc. I’m not saying that GW2 can’t do those things, but that Devs can’t expect to just say “we’re gonna mix our skill system with RTS game style”, when a lot of the RTS mechanics are none-existing in a 3 dimensional environment.

The fun part of an RTS game really isn’t the fact that you can use your skills in a simulated order…. but the fact that the skills physically interacts with several elements of gameplay including moving a player’s position, creating structures, cloning, etc. That’s totally different from just pressing your skills in order to achieve combos & getting stat advantages from doing so.

The problem with this system (as the OP clearly illustrates) is that the trait system defines what you do, and you pick weapons around those traits.

However, skills should be..unlockable, much as they were in GW1 and fit into slots, and that your trait to compliment your skills, and can build a unique and varied build that would work in ‘your’ expert hands.

AS it works now, you have pigeon hole builds that you are forced to use in order to be ‘viable’. It shouldn’t work that way. Traits should reflect the skills you pick that compliment a desired way of playing (PB bombing in GW1 was fun on an Ele)

All ArenaNet needs to do is release more skills. For example, implement additional weapon skills that we can use instead of the default options.

you can “build wars” all you want…the sad truth is even if there are a million combinations, people are going to play about 8