Guild Wars 2

mbhalo.1547:

The best solution would probably be auto group finder that considers a plethora of factors when groups up players together, so that new players with mediocre gear aren’t stuck with hardcore players that want to speedrun.

That might solve some of the problem ,but I’ve seen players in top gear still be kitten bad at the game and their classes

Myrdreth.6829:

…could someone please explain to me what “meta” means? I don’t understand a thing you all say but I am curious and want to understand what’s going on

Meta is the current best way to play the game. There are builds for your class that are Meta and although there room to change them a little you cant go away from core concept.
For example using guardians and running the trait that increases damage with retaliation.
You could almost say most classes have a gimmick and revolving you build around it is key.

grumpychuhua.8417:

mbhalo.1547:

The best solution would probably be auto group finder that considers a plethora of factors when groups up players together, so that new players with mediocre gear aren’t stuck with hardcore players that want to speedrun.

That might solve some of the problem ,but I’ve seen players in top gear still be kitten bad at the game and their classes

agreed, the issue isn’t gear or skill, its attitude. The great player would try to teach and will persevere as a matter of principle, the bad player will emo, blame and try to boot. you can’t track that.

Mell.4873:

Myrdreth.6829:

…could someone please explain to me what “meta” means? I don’t understand a thing you all say but I am curious and want to understand what’s going on

Meta is the current best way to play the game. There are builds for your class that are Meta and although there room to change them a little you cant go away from core concept.
For example using guardians and running the trait that increases damage with retaliation.
You could almost say most classes have a gimmick and revolving you build around it is key.

i wouldn’t say ‘best’ , that would be the play style that the player finds most fun and satisfying. ’Optimal is good.

grumpychuhua.8417:

mbhalo.1547:

The best solution would probably be auto group finder that considers a plethora of factors when groups up players together, so that new players with mediocre gear aren’t stuck with hardcore players that want to speedrun.

That might solve some of the problem ,but I’ve seen players in top gear still be kitten bad at the game and their classes

Well among other things it should consider the amount of successful clears of said fractal/raid/dungeon too. So people doing their 1000th run are grouped with similar players.

I hear this for the first time that a programm which let you see the equipment of other players is allowed. Is there any official statement of anet?

Ashley.9304:

notebene.3190:

It’s why I probably won’t ever get to make one of the newer style legendaries, since you have to do fractals, and I’m betting no one wants me to tag along.

I did manage an old school Bifrost before HoT, and did Aurora, so that was fun.

It’s just not fun. Even if you “can” do it. People always assume that if you’re against meters you’re a bad player, but that’s not true. Whether I know what I’m doing or just kind of bumbling around, either way, the "meter’ makes it unfun. It’s like being policed by people I don’t even know, and since we don’t know each other there is a free pass to be jerks.

It’s unfun. I can’t tell you how many times in WoW we’d down a new boss and the first thing everyone would do is start comparing their meters to see who “beat” who. Uhhh… didn’t we just collectively beat the boss? Why are we now beating each other when we are supposed to be a team?

Maybe I just don’t have the same competitive mentality and therefore don’t “get” it. I’ve always hated this DPS meter stuff though. It’s a pass to be mean, unhelpful, and it causes real anxiety for a lot of folks to know that we’re all essentially being spied on by total strangers. I could count on one hand the times I saw someone use DPS meter information as a learning tool. The number of times I saw someone use it as a free pass to be rude? Boy, I’d need to grow 200 more hands to count that.

Completely agree, and I would selfishly ask you/others of a similar mind set to please not leave over it since we need all the reasonable people in-game that we can get =P

BurningHeavy.7268:

If your party wiped due to low dps and you had the lowest dps, why wouldn’t you be kicked?

I can understand that most people just want to complete their daily fractals as fast as possible, but if you’re not willing to play with people, who might not live up to your expectations, don’t do PUGs. Instead of just kicking players, maybe offer them some helpful pieces of advice and actually help them get better. Kicking players and telling them to “get gud” is just an easy way out for jerks. It’s simply rude.

Markus.9162:

I hear this for the first time that a programm which let you see the equipment of other players is allowed. Is there any official statement of anet?

Seeing the equipment of other players is NOT allowed. They are talking about their damage not gear.

Feothyr.6072:

I can understand that most people just want to complete their daily fractals as fast as possible, but if you’re not willing to play with people, who might not live up to your expectations, don’t do PUGs. Instead of just kicking players, maybe offer them some helpful pieces of advice and actually help them get better. Kicking players and telling them to “get gud” is just an easy way out for jerks. It’s simply rude.

I think it’s the other way around. PUGs are there to reach the end goal as fast as possible and with as little problems as possible. That’s what PUGs are there for. If someone wants to train they can always start a group that states so, or do it with their friends/guild members. You can’t expect a PUG to teach you how to play, teach you which skills/traits to use or even teach you the mechanics of fights.

Feothyr.6072:

BurningHeavy.7268:

If your party wiped due to low dps and you had the lowest dps, why wouldn’t you be kicked?

I can understand that most people just want to complete their daily fractals as fast as possible, but if you’re not willing to play with people, who might not live up to your expectations, don’t do PUGs. Instead of just kicking players, maybe offer them some helpful pieces of advice and actually help them get better. Kicking players and telling them to “get gud” is just an easy way out for jerks. It’s simply rude.

People on the internet would rather be that “internet tough guy” “git gud” jerk to impress their e-friends than to actually be nice and productive to others. :\

maddoctor.2738:

PUGs are there to reach the end goal as fast as possible and with as little problems as possible.

Are they though? You don’t know the people you’re grouping up with. You don’t know how much experience they have, how good their gear is or whether they are having a bad day. Assuming they’re going to meet all of your expectations seems at the very least naive to me.

I don’t know if I’m alone on this one, but if I want to make absolutely sure I’m going to get through T4 fractals as fast and as easy as possible, I’m sure as hell not going to look for people I don’t know or have never played with. I’m going to play with guildies and voice chat.

I’ve never been a fan of ppl using dps meters. Mainly due to so many players that are very negative with them and then start excluding players cuz of it. At least in gw2 cuz of megaserver you won’t really get blacklisted for being low dps compares to other games like dungeon and dragons online, where your stuck on that server and need to make a new toon just to play once blacklisted, or have friends to carry you.

With fractals anymore i find the pug groups due tend to just muster through unless with a really bad group. I myself play guardian, in pvt gear and generally have no issues in groups in t4. I do avoid the ones i don’t like though unless with a good group, or a fun talkative one. I do find it’s more about knowing the mechanics in them, and then dps after that.

Feothyr.6072:

You don’t know the people you’re grouping up with.

Exactly why most PUGs post their requirements, usually the word “experienced”, or simply “exp”, others have more strict requirements. You can’t expect a PUG to teach you, unless it is advertised as a training run. And most PUGs aren’t advertised for training at all if you check the LFG.

The OP left out much needed information from his opening post. Did he join an “all welcome” or “training” group and got kicked for his dps? Did he join a low level T1 fractal or a T4 challenge mote fractal?

I don’t know if I’m alone on this one, but if I want to make absolutely sure I’m going to get through T4 fractals as fast and as easy as possible, I’m sure as hell not going to look for people I don’t know or have never played with. I’m going to play with guildies and voice chat.

You do not need guildies/friends or voice chat to succeed in fractals, they are easy enough as it is. That’s why there are PUGs out there to begin with. If I want to make absolutely sure I’m going to run through T4 fractals as fast and as easy as possible I join an experienced PUG run. Because PUGs are more readily available sometimes than guildies

Odin the exiled.5764:

I’ve never been a fan of ppl using dps meters. Mainly due to so many players that are very negative with them and then start excluding players cuz of it.

But the thing is, the very same people did this before DPS meters in GW2, too. Only they used different things by which to exclude you, such as your LIs, APs, achievements, class, weapon, etc.

Nothing changed in that regard, if anything there’s a slight improvement because now they kick you by something vaguely related to actual contribution to the party.

PUGs are not there to learn the content or to get through it was quickly as possibly. PUGs exist to gather other people in order to do content that requires more people than you have.

Now PUGs that have disclaimers, like training run or exp, are for certain groups. It has driven me to the ends of the earth with people joining my Nightmare CM group while I’ve been asking for experience, and then as a Guardian I pull 50% of the damage to the boss. There is no reason that this should happen beyond the fact that people join with subpar builds, looking to leech, or haven’t practiced their class enough to pull something respectable. A DPS meter lets me see why a run is taking forever or why we’re wiping to certain DPS checks.

Now if you’re in a group that started off as either a training run, or just a general “Daily T4” group, then people should never be kicking because of DPS since that was not stipulations of the group. I can totally understand hating DPS meters in this scenario, but if it was a “speed run” or an “exp only” group, please don’t be bad and pull 1k DPS to my 12k.

And unless you play elementalist, you should be thanking that DPS meters exist because otherwise you’d be kicked on the spot before even being able to set foot into the fractal/raid.

maddoctor.2738:

You do not need guildies/friends or voice chat to succeed in fractals, they are easy enough as it is.

Of course they’re not needed. ^^ I’ve done a couple of runs with PUGs; some of them went really smoothly – others not so much. I don’t do PUGs often, because I don’t like the risk of playing with people I don’t know, who might cause the run to fail or at least make it way harder than it would be with guildmates.

maddoctor.2738:

Exactly why most PUGs post their requirements, usually the word “experienced”

At what point can a player be considered “experienced”? After 10 succesfull runs? 20? 100? Perception’s differ and a player might think he’s experienced, although he’s not.

maddoctor.2738:

If I want to make absolutely sure I’m going to run through T4 fractals as fast and as easy as possible I join an experienced PUG run.

You don’t know the people you’re teaming up with, so why are you assuming they’re going to live up to your expactations? Just because they wrote “exp” in the description? It doesn’t make sense to me. It’s like expecting advertisements to be a true depiction of reality.

CptAurellian.9537:

Which leads me to a much more common issue than dps meter elitism: isn’t it rude to join a group and make content much more difficult for 4 other people because you are too lazy to understand even the basics of class/game mechanics?

This……

And myself am not a huge fan of the dps meters but they have been a useful tool in helping me improve my own dps. Now, if I were to ever be called out because of so-called “low” dps, without them considering my role, the fight, etc. , then yea, there’s an issue. But has yet to happen.

Feothyr.6072:

At what point can a player be considered “experienced”? After 10 succesfull runs? 20? 100? Perception’s differ and a player might think he’s experienced, although he’s not.

And that player will get kicked, once you join a couple of “experienced” run and succeed then you know you are experienced. Honestly it’s not the number of successful runs but rather if you know your build, know how to play and know the mechanics. Some get it quickly, others take more time, others don’t even want to know.

You don’t know the people you’re teaming up with, so why are you assuming they’re going to live up to your expactations? Just because they wrote “exp” in the description? It doesn’t make sense to me. It’s like expecting advertisements to be a true depiction of reality.

I’m assuming they will live up to expectations if they know how to read. Being “experienced” isn’t rocket science. There are a few special snow flakes who think they know everything when in reality they are not, but to my experience most people joining experienced groups are actually experienced and those that are not are getting kicked (then come on the forums and complain)

It is not the meter that is the problem. It is the way people are allowed to group.

Make grouping automated with no exception. Eliminate statics and kicking. Track player experience per profession for matching. Provide a rating system for competence, courtesy, and quitting.

Anchoku.8142:

Make grouping automated with no exception.

That’s about the worst possible suggestion.

Ok I read all the comment but you seem to forget 1 thing. Dps is not everything the reason I got poor dps, no I not a noob no I dont suck, in fact its pretty muche the other way around, no I run a support build, healer, damage reduction via perma protection. I run a support/healer auramancer build, cause I was told now day support class got their place. That said I am happy to see their is not too much kitten, sometime it seem you forgot thats its only just a game, to be play for FUN.

Perma bans would be the only best solution with deniable refunds if found using such programs. Dunno why Anets been looking the other way and allowing it lately.

It’s sad, I’ll either have to look for around for another game if this will be the normal way groups are formed for fractals or anything anymore. But then it’s been going down hill for a couple years now.

Anchoku.8142:

Make grouping automated with no exception. Eliminate statics and kicking. Track player experience per profession for matching. Provide a rating system for competence, courtesy, and quitting.

That’s a horrible idea.
Automated system based on what? How do you count experience per profession?
Based on how many times you run the content in the past?
What kind of purpose does eliminating static groups have? Other than punishing guild groups and groups of friends who want to play together.
If you disallow kicking then you open the flood gates for griefing and trolling. No thanks.
An automated grouping system for PVE will never work and it’s absolutely terrible.

ANet has confirmed that dps meter is allowed to check party dps, which is commonly used in raid.

However 3rd party that checks other people’s gear are not allowed. Granted players who’re experienced with raid etc maybe able to make educated guess, but there are such program exists and to make the boundary more confusing it is allowed in China server.

Either way I agree that in fractal players shouldn’t be pushing for those dps so harshly. Raid already has a culture of high expectation to get optimal but fractals can really be done by anyone in short amount of time.

Makuragee.3058:

Ok I read all the comment but you seem to forget 1 thing. Dps is not everything the reason I got poor dps, no I not a noob no I dont suck, in fact its pretty muche the other way around, no I run a support build, healer, damage reduction via perma protection. I run a support/healer auramancer build, cause I was told now day support class got their place. That said I am happy to see their is not too much kitten, sometime it seem you forgot thats its only just a game, to be play for FUN.

At least now we know what happened. When a PUG sees an Elementalist they expect a damage dealer because that’s what an Elementalist is good for and that’s what they are best at. Elementalist support isn’t good and usually other builds take on that role, builds that are superior to the Elementalist in that role. The group saw terrible dps numbers from you, assumed you were a terrible player and that’s why they kicked you.

mXz.4512:

Perma bans would be the only best solution with deniable refunds if found using such programs. Dunno why Anets been looking the other way and allowing it lately.

They allow it because its very useful tool for the hardcore playerbase.

mXz.4512:

It’s sad, I’ll either have to look for around for another game if this will be the normal way groups are formed for fractals or anything anymore. But then it’s been going down hill for a couple years now.

Or you can pug T1-T3 where nobody cares about dps. Or do T4s with your friends and guildmates.

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

Either way I agree that in fractal players shouldn’t be pushing for those dps so harshly. Raid already has a culture of high expectation to get optimal but fractals can really be done by anyone in short amount of time.

Because fractal players didn’t have similar culture? I seem to remember differently. Also fractal CMs have some dps checks too. Also it is much more relaxing and fun for everyone when you melt the enemies in fractals rather than struggle and wipe against them.

Mell.4873:

Myrdreth.6829:

…could someone please explain to me what “meta” means? I don’t understand a thing you all say but I am curious and want to understand what’s going on

Meta is the current best way to play the game. There are builds for your class that are Meta and although there room to change them a little you cant go away from core concept.
For example using guardians and running the trait that increases damage with retaliation.
You could almost say most classes have a gimmick and revolving you build around it is key.

Ah, now I understand. Thank you!

maddoctor.2738:

At least now we know what happened. When a PUG sees an Elementalist they expect a damage dealer because that’s what an Elementalist is good for and that’s what they are best at. Elementalist support isn’t good and usually other builds take on that role, builds that are superior to the Elementalist in that role. The group saw terrible dps numbers from you, assumed you were a terrible player and that’s why they kicked you.

Sorry doc, but the middle part is nonsense. Eles aren’t healer meta due to their lack of GotL and all that offensive stuff, but they do the healing (and defensive support) part just fine, arguably even better than druids. For fractals, that’s more than enough, as long as the group actually needs some healing (which the vast majority of pug groups do).

CptAurellian.9537:

Sorry doc, but the middle part is nonsense. Eles aren’t healer meta due to their lack of GotL and all that offensive stuff, but they do the healing (and defensive support) part just fine, arguably even better than druids. For fractals, that’s more than enough, as long as the group actually needs some healing (which the vast majority of pug groups do).

It was like this in the old days before the condi ranger was found to be such an amazing dps. When a Ranger joined a high end fractal group he was expected to be the Druid. Or kick. Even if Ele is the best healer (without offensive support buffs) I’m positive most PUGs would expect the Ele to be the best dps instead. Unless the support Ele build becomes famous, enters the meta, and the PUGs adapt to it, but PUGs tend to be really slow at adapting to new ideas.

It doesn’t matter where you go you will always find players like this. Shoot I got kicked from a raid because I made the tank nervous on deimos and made him touch black pools, allegedly. Well that’s what I saw before I got kicked. I guess it was my fault I should have quit that poor group after an hr into it, so a TY is in order. I so stoooopid

maddoctor.2738:

And that player will get kicked, once you join a couple of “experienced” run and succeed then you know you are experienced.

Honestly I think this is one of the problem attitudes. I’m sure everyone has encountered the type of person who’s like “I know I can’t be the issue because I’m experienced so it must be one of you”. The game would be a whole lot more interesting if people took a more flexible approach to problem solving instead of the attitude of “this is what’s worked for me in the past so I’m going to keep doing it no matter what and if it doesn’t work this time it’s someone else’s fault because it’s worked for me in the past”.
End of slightly ranty tangent.

No dps meter for mac yet, I’d check out my dps but to be able to see other party members dps? How? Well to be fair I would want Anet to check out this soft and say: “This is OK, we checked it, it is legal, you can use it, check out code on redit if you want, anything else is illegal” – I think it should work base on API, anyone else could explain where does dps meter take data from about others dps?
Also Anet you should do something about guys looking at our gear, srsly wtf?

Every MMO in history has gone down the same path and there are always people claiming it’s needed to ensure they can do the most difficult content etc. and that only certain people abuse it. All rubbish as every MMO in history has proven out, it’s a tool used that propagate elitism and it absolutely has far more negative effects than positive.
This is a subculture

More players using DPS Meters = RIP Power Reapers.

Vlad Morbius.1759:

Every MMO in history has gone down the same path and there are always people claiming it’s needed to ensure they can do the most difficult content etc. and that only certain people abuse it. All rubbish as every MMO in history has proven out, it’s a tool used that propagate elitism and it absolutely has far more negative effects than positive.
This is a subculture

It’s worse in GW2 though since GW2’s dps balance is actually really bad compared to other games. For most classes if you haven’t farmed full vipers or do not like DoT play-styles, good luck.

Myrdreth.6829:

Mell.4873:

Myrdreth.6829:

…could someone please explain to me what “meta” means? I don’t understand a thing you all say but I am curious and want to understand what’s going on

Meta is the current best way to play the game. There are builds for your class that are Meta and although there room to change them a little you cant go away from core concept.
For example using guardians and running the trait that increases damage with retaliation.
You could almost say most classes have a gimmick and revolving you build around it is key.

Ah, now I understand. Thank you!

I am not sure that is what it really means. However, it is internet slang and subject to different interpretations and anyone not immersed in this subculture may not understand its use. Specific to gaming, most people use it to refer to a particular idea or concept that is the most popular or trendy at that time. In effect, “this is what every one else is doing”. It is an acronym and not the Greek origin prefix “meta”. It’s meaning here is Most Effective Tactic Available (META). The word itself usually refers to a general concept, not an individual detail, but the poster is correct and most GW2 builds revolve around finding a trick/exploit or series of overlapping traits to maximize damage, health, or some other characteristic. Obviously that usage does not have much relation to the origins or normal use of the word/prefix, but human nature is what it is and why explain with three or four clear words what you can spout out with four letters and a vague acronym.

That makes me wonder if it would be possible to create to a tool to scan my PUG group’s internet posting history for literacy, spelling, factual accuracy, and overall contribution to society as a whole. This way I don’t have to waste time conversing with people below my level. Wait, that sounds rather elitist, short-sided, unnecessary, and well… obviously stupid. It is the elitist fractal players that need to find their own groups and stick to them. Of course, we all know why they are picking up randoms in the first place. They are having a hard time finding people who want to play with them.

Time effectiveness is exploiting now? Are you serious?

Vlad Morbius.1759:

Every MMO in history has gone down the same path and there are always people claiming it’s needed to ensure they can do the most difficult content etc. and that only certain people abuse it. All rubbish as every MMO in history has proven out, it’s a tool used that propagate elitism and it absolutely has far more negative effects than positive.
This is a subculture

Link to research please.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Link to research please.

Won’t happen, for obvious reasons.

A while back I encountered the DPS meter thing in wvw on one of my accounts. I was pugging with an open guild group tag and the tag/gl kept asking for DPS meter stats. I apparently was on top a couple times. Then they tried to recruit me over several days. I explained from the start that I used to try being semi-hardcore but didn’t like it. That I didn’t find the game that enjoyable anymore, preferred to play when I felt like it and run the build I’m comfortable with. Basically I’m not guild material. When the gl finally got it that I wasn’t going to bend I was uninvited and blocked haha.

CptAurellian.9537:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Link to research please.

Won’t happen, for obvious reasons.

Because all the researchers are busy studying Eve Online? =P

DPS meters are one of the best things to happen to the game. They let you see where you are and what to improve. They also make it easier for people to play with like-minded people, and to remove those who are just there to be carried. Too many people in gw2 want to get carried, it’s shameful.

I don’t need any research, I’ve played virtually ever decent MMO and have witnessed the culture it creates in each one of them, WoW’s biggest proponents of this behavior was a site called Elitist Jerks.com and the name says it all lol! Theory crafting is fine but using it as a tool to shut people out is flat wrong. You want to help the game using a personal DPS meter, start by teaching people who don’t understand the mechanics as well as you do not by ostracizing them.

I’m disturbed the devs haven’t taken notice of this thread. I don’t think Anet doesn’t care, it’s just there would have to be an investigation with the report. (I’d recommend taking screenshots of these people talking about your DPS, that would make it a little more obvious.) It could take awhile.

Regardless, it’s still illegal in GW2 to use DPS meters to track other peoples’ DPS. It’s also illegal to use third-party programs to see other peoples’ equipment. This isn’t something to take lightly.

AegisRunestone.8672:

Regardless, it’s still illegal in GW2 to use DPS meters to track other peoples’ DPS.

Nope. It is legal. Here is the link https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/66m13h/anet_this_really_should_be_part_of_the_game/dgjwapj/

AegisRunestone.8672:

It’s also illegal to use third-party programs to see other peoples’ equipment. This isn’t something to take lightly.

And this is illegal because it falls under QoL and not combat data.

Vlad Morbius.1759:

I don’t need any research, I’ve played virtually ever decent MMO and have witnessed the culture it creates in each one of them, WoW’s biggest proponents of this behavior was a site called Elitist Jerks.com and the name says it all lol! Theory crafting is fine but using it as a tool to shut people out is flat wrong. You want to help the game using a personal DPS meter, start by teaching people who don’t understand the mechanics as well as you do not by ostracizing them.

That site is most likely called Elitist Jerks to parody people like you calling them that.
People in dungeon forum here have called themselves elitist jerks for the same reason.

Why should they teach you, though?
Why not ask the people who taught them to teach you instead?
If you don’t understand the mechanics, why are you in a high tier group?

TheRandomGuy.7246:

AegisRunestone.8672:

Regardless, it’s still illegal in GW2 to use DPS meters to track other peoples’ DPS.

Nope. It is legal. Here is the link https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/66m13h/anet_this_really_should_be_part_of_the_game/dgjwapj/

That’s really disappointing to read. That allows exploitation of other players, it isn’t right. I don’t think other players—especially guildless ones—will stay long if this continues. I can understand personal DPS meters, but ones tracking other players? No, to me, that’s wrong, even if Anet has said “it’s okay now.”

AegisRunestone.8672:

I don’t think other players—especially guildless ones—will stay long if this continues.

This is profound kitten. This stuff happens as often as we had posts like “I got kicked because of AP/weapon X/class X/whatever” in the past. There are some jerks around (which MMO comm doesn’t have them?) and they’ll kick based on any (pseudo-)metric available to them. Nothing has changed at all, except that now we at least have a reasonable metric.