Guild Wars 2

The most used dps meter atm is ARCdps, u can just google it and it will pop up. unfortunately i always liked bgdm but thats RIP.

TheGrimm.5624:

*Tools that empower players to be kitten to others to me are a bad idea. The fact that this thread was started already proves this was an issue. *

Nobody needs a tool for that. If I want to be a kitten I can do it without any dps meter.
If I want to kick I can kick based on anything I want – LI, AP, “you went down too much”, etc.

If you think the addition of a dps meter changes anything – you’re just wrong.
Bad players get kicked. It’s been like this since 2012.

Miku.6297:

Dextra.8162:

So I should just let a longbow “dps” druid/ranger in the party who offers 0 dps and gets carried for basically free loot while everyone else picks up the slack?

I see this THE MOST and I will usually leave the party. It’s a gigantic waste of time. T4 fracs should not take more than 20 mins. Adjust, stop being lazy, or get kicked. You can argue that that is rude, but honestly people coming in with their snowflake builds contributing nothing and getting carried is the problem and rude in itself.

If the ranger is attacking how is it doing 0 dps? While I agree people looking to be carried isn’t the most enjoyable thing. How ever assuming everyone in a different build from what you consider ideal preforms poorly is rude. It’s about how you present your arguement, removing someone who is just wanting a free ride is one thing, acting like a jerk is another. (refering to the tone of the post with the negative comments and mass exaggeration)

He’s doing some dps but he’s basically just wasting people’s time.
Optimal builds are a courtesy – to the people you play with. If you’re not bothering to play the build the content requires I don’t see why people who enjoy that content should bother taking you along.

Mindset should be: “I want to play X content. What gear do I need? What build do I need? How can I do it well”.
People with that mindset don’t have issues with groups.
People that just join and expect things to go well for them at the expense of others are the bane of MMOs and should be kicked on sight.

Aomine.5012:

Dextra.8162:

So I should just let a longbow “dps” druid/ranger in the party who offers 0 dps and gets carried for basically free loot while everyone else picks up the slack?

I see this THE MOST and I will usually leave the party. It’s a gigantic waste of time. T4 fracs should not take more than 20 mins. Adjust, stop being lazy, or get kicked. You can argue that that is rude, but honestly people coming in with their snowflake builds contributing nothing and getting carried is the problem and rude in itself.

Thanks for proving my previous point
Yeah, wasting that extra 5 mins of yours is such a sin!
All the Pugs are being carried by you cuz it takes more than 20 mins!

5 minutes might not matter to you – they matter to others.
And it’s not just about the time – at least not for me. For me it’s about my enjoyment of the content. If someone is using some weird build that has no synergy with our group, he’s not tackling the content properly then that ruins the experience for me.

Just like for other “casual” groups me telling them “stack here, do this, go there” ruins the experience for them.
So stay away from each other. Best option.

STIHL.2489:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

STIHL.2489:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

STIHL.2489:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

STIHL.2489:

I have got to ask, how does a level 50, get enough AR, to even enter a T4 fractal without getting eaten alive by Agony?

You can purchase as much AR as you like on the TP.

Ok.. Well, Wow, in the off chance this was not a total troll response, as far as I know, Agony Resist infusions can only be slotted it into Ascended Gear which is ML 80 (might be ML79 on some pieces).

So, I’ll ask you again.. how exactly does a level 50, get enough AR to enter a T4 fractal?

On the off chance that you’re not trolling, as I added above, “L50” might have been referring to personal fractal level. (There are also more than a few exotics that will take infusions.)

Besides, you don’t need any AR to enter a fractal. There are only a tiny number of spots where agony can’t be avoided (and some people are good enough at footwork to avoid all the others).

If someone is at Fractal level 50, would have the common sense by that point to know what the abbreviations mean in the LFG panel , so that makes no sense.

Lets get real, anyone who has the twitch to dance agony in a T4 fractal with what amounts to No AR, could out strip any elitist with a meta toon.. because.. kitten they are serious pro.

Also, Exotics are also level 80 (I believe 76 might be the ML, or some such)

I’m not altogether clear on your point now. Do you claim that everyone reads the LFG? Do you claim that people who do always respect the requirements?

The issue raised was that someone looking for an experienced group got people who were demonstrably inexperienced or otherwise not ready to do T4 dailies. You’re still quibbling about the details, rather than accepting that people organizing for challenging group content sometimes (even often) get people who aren’t prepared.

I asked above and I’ll ask again:

• If you join a group that’s asking for experience (or whatever), is it okay for the leader to /kick those who don’t have it?
• If you join a group that is “all welcome”, is it okay for the leader to /kick those who demonstrate they are looking only for an experienced group (e.g. they complain about folks with low DPS)?

It seems to me that using a DPS meter makes it easier for experienced people to find and group with other experienced people. And it also makes it easier for the inexperienced and those who don’t care to avoid folks focused on DPS. Regardless of the other pros/cons, that seems like a good thing for everyone.

My point, is that the hard gear requirement just to get enough AR to do fractals weans out the clueless players, as such, all these Elite Zerg players claiming to get plagued by noobs for T4 fractals, reeks of being a myth, a fable if you will, more then any real event, all said to justify their own elitism.

If you want to be an Elitist, just own it, don’t go blaming anyone else for your attitude, and if you are so plagued by “noobs” on your T4 fractal runs that you feel the need for 3rd party software to DPS check them, then, its time to face facts that Pugging is not for you. Find a Guild of like minded players and stick to static Fractal runs.

Or just get a friend or two – fill with pugs – don’t run a dps meter because it upsets the casuals and just kick at your discretion based on arbitrary reasons.
Why not?
“Not enough APs” – kicked.
“Went down” – kicked.
“Why are you over there?”- Kicked.

Isn’t it more fun like this?
Why base kicks on an objective reality when we can go back to 2012/2013 and I can kick based on your AP, class, or whatever else crosses my mind.

Rashagar.8349:

Wow. Why don’t I break it down for you for a second.

The meta is there for a reason.

That reason is laziness.

T4 is pre-raid content. Build like it.

No, that’s not how it works.

If you don’t like it. Stay out of high level fractals with pugs.

You do not get to dictate or speak for the attitudes of all high-level fractal pugs.

don’t get upset when some people actually playing real builds doing actual damage kick you

Your build is no more “real” for being meta-bullkitten than anyone else’s is.

I’m just being real

You’re being a real something alright.

Your head appears to be somewhat lodged inside your kitten. I suggest you remove it. Your point of view may be drastically improved.

1. So what if that reason is laziness? When do you get to tell me how hard-working I have to be in this game?

2. T4 is pre-raid content. You may not like it but saying “no that’s not how it works” doesn’t change one thing.

3. He may not be able to speak for all groups but he can speak for his. And he can kick for his too.

4. Builds are “rated” based on how effective they are. Your build is real too – but if it isn’t meta it’s not worth anything honestly. Because ultimately it’s just a waste of time and the means through which things are made necessarily complicated.

5.His head is fine – be mad somewhere else.

Rashagar.8349:

Astro Bear.6305:

Rashagar.8349:

Wow. Why don’t I break it down for you for a second.

The meta is there for a reason.

That reason is laziness.

T4 is pre-raid content. Build like it.

No, that’s not how it works.

If you don’t like it. Stay out of high level fractals with pugs.

You do not get to dictate or speak for the attitudes of all high-level fractal pugs.

don’t get upset when some people actually playing real builds doing actual damage kick you

Your build is no more “real” for being meta-bullkitten than anyone else’s is.

I’m just being real

You’re being a real something alright.

Your head appears to be somewhat lodged inside your kitten. I suggest you remove it. Your point of view may be drastically improved.

Ahahahaha, love it! Well my head might be up my kitten but at least I’m not dragging down every fractal group in T4 with kitten poor dps. I’ve noticed only the 3k DPS club boys cry about elitism and how content is hard ect, ect, ect.

Funnily enough, I’ve noticed that only the “goes full glass but can’t kill things fast enough to avoid dying so blames everyone else for their death instead of actually getting good enough to survive a glassy spec” crowd are the ones who cry about wanting dps checks =P

You do realize that high DPS is the way to stay alive in this game don’t you?
Kill X before it kills you is a valid and fast tactic.
If your DPS is low you’ll wipe the team.

They are using an external program that’s innacurate.

Harper.4173:

If your DPS is low you’ll wipe the team.

Been trying to explain since the game was released all those years ago. Some people never understood it.

From a thread on the subject of the meta, from a long long time ago:
“I’ve been in a group with these meta-berserkers with my nomads gear and while they were dead I was alive and kicking! They were such noobs!”

Unfortunately some people hate the word “meta” so much that they can’t think clearly.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

My biggest concern with DPS meters is that I’ll end up marked for my mistakes.

DPS meters are not tools to reward good performance. They only exist to punish bad performance. The issue is, bad days happen. Sometimes I can’t get my skills off, and my performance will sink because of reasons both within and out of my control. On good days, I am not going to be rewarded for doing everything right. I am expected to do everything right as the norm. But on a bad day? I’ll be facing the threat of being kicked + blocked. That connection is severed forever because of bad luck. This is what is meant by DPS meters making a toxic environment: you are never rewarded, only punished. This kind of environment is why companies create automatic reward programs for their low end workers; to counteract the issue where only failures are noticeable.

The thing about self improvement is that you really don’t need a DPS meter for it. Common sense applied to your skills and traits is enough to produce a working damage rotation, and competent play is enough to ensure success. I’ve tried out my own rotations on the DPS golem and seen what works, and when in combat I can usually tell whether I’m doing good damage or not just by evaluating my own performance. If I continually blast my enemies with all my high damage skills then I’m doing good DPS, and if I can’t then I’m not.

You’re looking at it oddly.
When you do well you’re rewarded with being accepted into a group that does well. That’s the reward.
When you do poorly you’re rejected and kicked – that’s the punishment.
There is both reward and punishment.

Do well – reward. Do bad – punishment.
I know you would prefer (like anyone else) to be accepted into a group that does well even if you do poorly – but that’s not really fair to them is it?

If you want to play with people that do well – you should be like them and do well yourself. It’s only fair to them that they gain as much from you as you gain from them when you play together.
I understand your fear – it’s normal. I have nothing against being kicked if I’m performing poorly. Why should you or anyone else?

BurningHeavy.7268:

Randulf.7614:

Ultimately it is these things that prevent a bigger influx of players joining these higher end instances than there could be and leads to them stagnating due to low population.

Sadly it wont change, the only answer is to join a like minded guild or to encourage as many people to start their own groups and ensure those groups dont use these ridiculous meters and build checkers.

or, and I know this is a crazy idea, but you COULD get good and do adequate dps. the build I use can pump out over 10k dps by pushing one with scepter, letting the auto attack take over and doing NOTHING else but do mechanics. That’s IT! Better yourself, don’t complain and insist on being bad.

If I wanted a WoW mentality I’d play WoW… If you like raiding for raids sake that’s fine, but to insist that everyone play the way you like to play is unreasonable. Find like-minded players to play the way you like playing = fine. Telling everyone else that they have to play the way you do = not fine. It’s really that simple.

Harper.4173:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

My biggest concern with DPS meters is that I’ll end up marked for my mistakes.

DPS meters are not tools to reward good performance. They only exist to punish bad performance. The issue is, bad days happen. Sometimes I can’t get my skills off, and my performance will sink because of reasons both within and out of my control. On good days, I am not going to be rewarded for doing everything right. I am expected to do everything right as the norm. But on a bad day? I’ll be facing the threat of being kicked + blocked. That connection is severed forever because of bad luck. This is what is meant by DPS meters making a toxic environment: you are never rewarded, only punished. This kind of environment is why companies create automatic reward programs for their low end workers; to counteract the issue where only failures are noticeable.

The thing about self improvement is that you really don’t need a DPS meter for it. Common sense applied to your skills and traits is enough to produce a working damage rotation, and competent play is enough to ensure success. I’ve tried out my own rotations on the DPS golem and seen what works, and when in combat I can usually tell whether I’m doing good damage or not just by evaluating my own performance. If I continually blast my enemies with all my high damage skills then I’m doing good DPS, and if I can’t then I’m not.

You’re looking at it oddly.
When you do well you’re rewarded with being accepted into a group that does well. That’s the reward.
When you do poorly you’re rejected and kicked – that’s the punishment.
There is both reward and punishment.

Do well – reward. Do bad – punishment.
I know you would prefer (like anyone else) to be accepted into a group that does well even if you do poorly – but that’s not really fair to them is it?

If you want to play with people that do well – you should be like them and do well yourself. It’s only fair to them that they gain as much from you as you gain from them when you play together.
I understand your fear – it’s normal. I have nothing against being kicked if I’m performing poorly. Why should you or anyone else?

So join groups that are like minded and don’t insist everyone else play like you or put a warning in the title so people can choose to avoid you and your group because the dps meter is unfun.

Harper.4173:

Miku.6297:

Dextra.8162:

So I should just let a longbow “dps” druid/ranger in the party who offers 0 dps and gets carried for basically free loot while everyone else picks up the slack?

I see this THE MOST and I will usually leave the party. It’s a gigantic waste of time. T4 fracs should not take more than 20 mins. Adjust, stop being lazy, or get kicked. You can argue that that is rude, but honestly people coming in with their snowflake builds contributing nothing and getting carried is the problem and rude in itself.

If the ranger is attacking how is it doing 0 dps? While I agree people looking to be carried isn’t the most enjoyable thing. How ever assuming everyone in a different build from what you consider ideal preforms poorly is rude. It’s about how you present your arguement, removing someone who is just wanting a free ride is one thing, acting like a jerk is another. (refering to the tone of the post with the negative comments and mass exaggeration)

He’s doing some dps but he’s basically just wasting people’s time.
Optimal builds are a courtesy – to the people you play with. If you’re not bothering to play the build the content requires I don’t see why people who enjoy that content should bother taking you along.

Mindset should be: “I want to play X content. What gear do I need? What build do I need? How can I do it well”.
People with that mindset don’t have issues with groups.
People that just join and expect things to go well for them at the expense of others are the bane of MMOs and should be kicked on sight.

And here is the reason I do not join PUG’s, don’t play games with random players and have zero interest in joining those who do. I play for fun not to have to meet certain specs/quota’s etc while that might be fun for you… Absolutely the reason I avoid other MMO’s.

Harper.4173:

TheGrimm.5624:

*Tools that empower players to be kitten to others to me are a bad idea. The fact that this thread was started already proves this was an issue. *

Nobody needs a tool for that. If I want to be a kitten I can do it without any dps meter.
If I want to kick I can kick based on anything I want – LI, AP, “you went down too much”, etc.

If you think the addition of a dps meter changes anything – you’re just wrong.
Bad players get kicked. It’s been like this since 2012.

…. And this is exactly why so many people HATE playing with people with that mentality. People wonder why I don’t PUG or bother with LFG, your attitude is precisely why. I don’t pretend to know everything but there’s a way to help people learn and then there’s being insulting. If the goal is speed then say so in the LFG tool, if the goal is only to have experienced players then say so… So other people can know precisely to avoid you.

I personally find the entire attitude insulting and rude but hey, that’s probably because I know there is an actual human on the other end who may not be having a good day or perhaps has other things going on at the time and doesn’t deserve to be insulted and attacked while they’re playing a GAME for fun.

Ferelwing.8463:

And here is the reason I do not join PUG’s, don’t play games with random players and have zero interest in joining those who do. I play for fun not to have to meet certain specs/quota’s etc while that might be fun for you… Absolutely the reason I avoid other MMO’s.

And that’s the best thing to do. The problem is when people that think like you try to join other groups that do not. That’s the main issue here, there are two kinds of players that can’t play well with each other, and one of the groups imposes their idea on the other. That’s not a fault of the meter though

Dextra.8162:

Miku.6297:

Dextra.8162:

Or say:

Casual T4’s, 2hr run YAY.

The attitude here is what people don’t like.

And the other half of us don’t like the attitudes of those thinking they are entitled to get rewarded for selfish play and behavior.

It’s a game not a job… Some of us like to take our time, if you’re not one of them please put it out there up front so we all don’t waste each others time.

Ferelwing.8463:

Harper.4173:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

My biggest concern with DPS meters is that I’ll end up marked for my mistakes.

DPS meters are not tools to reward good performance. They only exist to punish bad performance. The issue is, bad days happen. Sometimes I can’t get my skills off, and my performance will sink because of reasons both within and out of my control. On good days, I am not going to be rewarded for doing everything right. I am expected to do everything right as the norm. But on a bad day? I’ll be facing the threat of being kicked + blocked. That connection is severed forever because of bad luck. This is what is meant by DPS meters making a toxic environment: you are never rewarded, only punished. This kind of environment is why companies create automatic reward programs for their low end workers; to counteract the issue where only failures are noticeable.

The thing about self improvement is that you really don’t need a DPS meter for it. Common sense applied to your skills and traits is enough to produce a working damage rotation, and competent play is enough to ensure success. I’ve tried out my own rotations on the DPS golem and seen what works, and when in combat I can usually tell whether I’m doing good damage or not just by evaluating my own performance. If I continually blast my enemies with all my high damage skills then I’m doing good DPS, and if I can’t then I’m not.

You’re looking at it oddly.
When you do well you’re rewarded with being accepted into a group that does well. That’s the reward.
When you do poorly you’re rejected and kicked – that’s the punishment.
There is both reward and punishment.

Do well – reward. Do bad – punishment.
I know you would prefer (like anyone else) to be accepted into a group that does well even if you do poorly – but that’s not really fair to them is it?

If you want to play with people that do well – you should be like them and do well yourself. It’s only fair to them that they gain as much from you as you gain from them when you play together.
I understand your fear – it’s normal. I have nothing against being kicked if I’m performing poorly. Why should you or anyone else?

So join groups that are like minded and don’t insist everyone else play like you or put a warning in the title so people can choose to avoid you and your group because the dps meter is unfun.

Sure – agreed. But people who want to “play how I want” are usually so entitled they’ll join any group because “I bought the game I have a right”. So you end up with them in your party and have to kick them. And then they go cry on the forums how the world’s not fair.

Ferelwing.8463:

Harper.4173:

Miku.6297:

Dextra.8162:

So I should just let a longbow “dps” druid/ranger in the party who offers 0 dps and gets carried for basically free loot while everyone else picks up the slack?

I see this THE MOST and I will usually leave the party. It’s a gigantic waste of time. T4 fracs should not take more than 20 mins. Adjust, stop being lazy, or get kicked. You can argue that that is rude, but honestly people coming in with their snowflake builds contributing nothing and getting carried is the problem and rude in itself.

If the ranger is attacking how is it doing 0 dps? While I agree people looking to be carried isn’t the most enjoyable thing. How ever assuming everyone in a different build from what you consider ideal preforms poorly is rude. It’s about how you present your arguement, removing someone who is just wanting a free ride is one thing, acting like a jerk is another. (refering to the tone of the post with the negative comments and mass exaggeration)

He’s doing some dps but he’s basically just wasting people’s time.
Optimal builds are a courtesy – to the people you play with. If you’re not bothering to play the build the content requires I don’t see why people who enjoy that content should bother taking you along.

Mindset should be: “I want to play X content. What gear do I need? What build do I need? How can I do it well”.
People with that mindset don’t have issues with groups.
People that just join and expect things to go well for them at the expense of others are the bane of MMOs and should be kicked on sight.

And here is the reason I do not join PUG’s, don’t play games with random players and have zero interest in joining those who do. I play for fun not to have to meet certain specs/quota’s etc while that might be fun for you… Absolutely the reason I avoid other MMO’s.

Cool – I appreciate you staying away from those that are different from you. It’s better for you and for them.

maddoctor.2738:

Ferelwing.8463:

And here is the reason I do not join PUG’s, don’t play games with random players and have zero interest in joining those who do. I play for fun not to have to meet certain specs/quota’s etc while that might be fun for you… Absolutely the reason I avoid other MMO’s.

And that’s the best thing to do. The problem is when people that think like you try to join other groups that do not. That’s the main issue here, there are two kinds of players that can’t play well with each other, and one of the groups imposes their idea on the other. That’s not a fault of the meter though

Having an up front way to say “Not my thing” is the better choice. If someone wants to speed run through the content more power to them, if I want to spend time trying to learn the mechanics of it or trying other things to see if I like that better, that’s my choice. There should be room for both play styles and there should be a way to say up front what play style is being worked. I generally two man fractals right now rather than risk having other people I don’t know who will start trying to scream at me to do it their way. It doesn’t always work (sometimes we outright die) but at the same time I’d rather that then have someone insist that my style of play is somehow inferior to their style. I like learning things on my own through trial and error and I respect that’s not for everyone but it is my way of playing.

I’m seeing entitlement on both sides of this argument but don’t mind me, I’m just enjoying the theatrics.

Seriously ANet should BAN DPS meters I have quitted alot of MMO’s that has these and HAVE ruined the HELL and FUN out of these mmo’s and refuse to play game where people can use these to ruin/waste your time but sometimes can HELP you but some people can be TOXIC and selfish about your DPS … again please DO not support DPS meters in game AT ALL

Ferelwing.8463:

It’s a game not a job… Some of us like to take our time, if you’re not one of them please put it out there up front so we all don’t waste each others time.

When you see a group that says the simple: “T4 dailies” what do you expect?
A group that will teach you the details and mechanics of each encounter, or a group that is already experienced with it and wants to finish the daily quickly?

Ferelwing.8463:

Harper.4173:

TheGrimm.5624:

*Tools that empower players to be kitten to others to me are a bad idea. The fact that this thread was started already proves this was an issue. *

Nobody needs a tool for that. If I want to be a kitten I can do it without any dps meter.
If I want to kick I can kick based on anything I want – LI, AP, “you went down too much”, etc.

If you think the addition of a dps meter changes anything – you’re just wrong.
Bad players get kicked. It’s been like this since 2012.

…. And this is exactly why so many people HATE playing with people with that mentality. People wonder why I don’t PUG or bother with LFG, your attitude is precisely why. I don’t pretend to know everything but there’s a way to help people learn and then there’s being insulting. If the goal is speed then say so in the LFG tool, if the goal is only to have experienced players then say so… So other people can know precisely to avoid you.

I personally find the entire attitude insulting and rude but hey, that’s probably because I know there is an actual human on the other end who may not be having a good day or perhaps has other things going on at the time and doesn’t deserve to be insulted and attacked while they’re playing a GAME for fun.

Yes I agree- there’s a way to help people learn but I’m not obligated to teach every new/bad player I come across what’s what.
I’m a players myself, that seeks to enjoy the game the way I feel is right for me.
Experienced/good players are not this game’s tutorial system. I’m not under some binding oath to help all newbies. People on these forums always ask “elitists” to teach and help new players – to me there’s no fun or reward in that.

They can teach themselves if they really want to. Nobody taught me. There are videos, written guides, build calculators – you name it.

When I make my LFGs I state my requirements clearly. When people don’t meet them I kick them. To me it’s not an issue.

I personally find the entire attitude insulting and rude but hey, that’s probably because I know there is an actual human on the other end who may not be having a good day or perhaps has other things going on at the time and doesn’t deserve to be insulted and attacked while they’re playing a GAME for fun.

And I’m not a therapist or a go-to “feel better” NPC that has to help you through content because life is stressful. You’re playing for fun in a way that you find fun. I’m playing for fun too in a way that I find fun. If your presence disrupts my fun then I’m sorry – I’m not going to keep you around just because “you might have had a bad day”. We’re both humans, we both have our issues and are both responsible four our lives and our fun.
If your fun ruins my fun then you’re getting kicked. That’s what I’m trying to say. You’re in no way shape or form more entitled to have fun with your GW2 than I am.

Somehow this makes me the bad guy.

maddoctor.2738:

Ferelwing.8463:

It’s a game not a job… Some of us like to take our time, if you’re not one of them please put it out there up front so we all don’t waste each others time.

When you see a group that says the simple: “T4 dailies” what do you expect?
A group that will teach you the details and mechanics of each encounter, or a group that is already experienced with it and wants to finish the daily quickly?

Ahh there’s the assumption I don’t do the dailies in fractals when I go to a fractal it’s because I’m trying to learn the mechanics of the fractal not because I am doing the daily. (Mind you as I said I two man then and I don’t join groups because the LFG tool could use a nice tweak to give people warnings).

My point is that not everyone knows that the “dailies” are meant to be speed run. I’ve played enough MMO’s to assume it but not everyone else does. Yes, sometimes it’s better to err on the side of “too much information” vs the “assumption” that everyone knows what you’re talking about.

Yes I agree- there’s a way to help people learn but I’m not obligated to teach every new/bad player I come across what’s what.
I’m a players myself, that seeks to enjoy the game the way I feel is right for me.
Experienced/good players are not this game’s tutorial system. I’m not under some binding oath to help all newbies. People on these forums always ask “elitists” to teach and help new players – to me there’s no fun or reward in that.

• And that’s your choice, I can completely understand that. Since you put that information up front that is fair. I can agree that is a fair thing. It would be nice if you wanted to help teach etc but you’re under no obligation to do so. Since you put your information directly up front then that’s a fair thing to assume that you get the type of players that you were looking for.

They can teach themselves if they really want to. Nobody taught me. There are videos, written guides, build calculators – you name it.

When I make my LFGs I state my requirements clearly. When people don’t meet them I kick them. To me it’s not an issue.

• And if you point out that your LFG was pretty clear on the type of player that you were looking for that is a fair thing to state. I was speaking more to the people who do NOT put those into their requirements and then kick people for not meeting requirements that were not spelled out in the beginning.

And I’m not a therapist or a go-to “feel better” NPC that has to help you through content because life is stressful. You’re playing for fun in a way that you find fun. I’m playing for fun too in a way that I find fun. If your presence disrupts my fun then I’m sorry – I’m not going to keep you around just because “you might have had a bad day”. We’re both humans, we both have our issues and are both responsible four our lives and our fun.
If your fun ruins my fun then you’re getting kicked. That’s what I’m trying to say. You’re in no way shape or form more entitled to have fun with your GW2 than I am.

Somehow this makes me the bad guy.

• What makes someone the bad guy is when they do it in an insulting manner.

If you kick someone after they failed to meet the requirements set up in the LFG by saying “Sorry -pre-req’s not met” that’s one thing, if you kick them based on requirements that were not spelled out and saying “Not enough DPS” or “we don’t want bad players” that’s completely different. While some people will get mad regardless, and I acknowledge that there’s no need to be intentionally rude, nasty or insulting when rejecting someone from a group. That kind of thing is what I object to and I failed to read the entire post (I’m sorry about that) before responding. I reacted specifically to the animism that I felt was being directed at new players for being new.

Ferelwing.8463:

Ahh there’s the assumption I don’t do the dailies in fractals when I go to a fractal it’s because I’m trying to learn the mechanics of the fractal not because I am doing the daily. (Mind you as I said I two man then and I don’t join groups because the LFG tool could use a nice tweak to give people warnings).

If you want to train/learn the mechanics then you join a group that explicitly states it’s a training group. That’s your LFG “warning”. What you are doing is the best way to go about it when training groups do not exist (you can search for them btw), join in a static group with friends and guild members to learn the content.

What I always believed about the LFG is that if you join a group of random strangers who want to finish a particular piece of content, don’t expect them to teach you that piece of content. It should come as no surprise that prior knowledge of that content is required, unless explicitly stating otherwise. No random stranger should be forced to teach others how to play, that’s what your guild members and friends are for. Therefore no extra warning is needed

Ferelwing.8463:

Dextra.8162:

Miku.6297:

Dextra.8162:

Or say:

Casual T4’s, 2hr run YAY.

The attitude here is what people don’t like.

And the other half of us don’t like the attitudes of those thinking they are entitled to get rewarded for selfish play and behavior.

It’s a game not a job… Some of us like to take our time, if you’re not one of them please put it out there up front so we all don’t waste each others time.

And some of us like to be efficient. It’s a matter of personal preference and both are equally valid. When I join a PUG group with no requirement, I know what I’m getting into and I respect the choice of those people. Is it so hard to do the very same thing and respect the people who prefer to play meta? By, say, not trying to force your own playstyle on them?

maddoctor.2738:

Ferelwing.8463:

Ahh there’s the assumption I don’t do the dailies in fractals when I go to a fractal it’s because I’m trying to learn the mechanics of the fractal not because I am doing the daily. (Mind you as I said I two man then and I don’t join groups because the LFG tool could use a nice tweak to give people warnings).

If you want to train/learn the mechanics then you join a group that explicitly states it’s a training group. That’s your LFG “warning”. What you are doing is the best way to go about it when training groups do not exist (you can search for them btw), join in a static group with friends and guild members to learn the content.

What I always believed about the LFG is that if you join a group of random strangers who want to finish a particular piece of content, don’t expect them to teach you that piece of content. It should come as no surprise that prior knowledge of that content is required, unless explicitly stating otherwise. No random stranger should be forced to teach others how to play, that’s what your guild members and friends are for. Therefore no extra warning is needed

The assumption being that every single player joins a guild and every single player knows this going in. If the game itself warned people that this was an expectation and set that expectation then people would know this going into it (ie some content needs guilds/friends) not some content requires random people who don’t want to play with you because you’re new. I don’t like playing with random people (it’s an introvert thing) I will do it sometimes but most of the time I do things by myself because getting my family to play is a pain. Assuming that every single person who plays GW2 has friends who play the game and a guild ignores the people who started playing because they wanted to play the content etc…

I understand where you’re coming from but pretending new players don’t exist and then getting mad that they do is what I object to.

Ferelwing.8463:

If the game itself warned people that this was an expectation and set that expectation then people would know this going into it (ie some content needs guilds/friends) not some content requires random people who don’t want to play with you because you’re new.

Now I’m curious. How do you propose the game “informs” new players of those expectations?

tell me if I’m some sort of alien (because my procedure seems to not be the norm), but:
when i started playing dungeons/fractals, first thing i did was search for a group that clearly advertised as learning/training group.
If there was none i started my own LFG advertised as “newbie group” or something similar.
If I then didn’t find anyone to join me, I joined some neutral group like “T4 Dailies” and before we started I told the others that I’m new and if it’s ok to join them.

This way everybody involved has the chance to find a group of people with the same mindset.

I can totally understand that people get frustraded when they’re kicked because of “bad player”, “low dps” or something similar when the group wasn’t advertised as “speed run” etc.
But I think the amount of frustration (on both sides) in raids,fractals etc. could be lowered by a significant amount if people started communicating their requirements/expectations better in the first place.

TheOrlyFactor.8341:

I’m seeing entitlement on both sides of this argument but don’t mind me, I’m just enjoying the theatrics.

Right?
All I can really ask out of the PUG community (which I’m not specifically a part of because omg guilds in Guild Wars how to they happen) is that they label their groups to attract the right people in the first place.

If you want to dictate how people play, join/create a “meta, ArcDPS required” group. And don’t be a jackkitten when someone joins the group that happens to be sub-par.
“Hey, sorry, but our group said meter required and you don’t have one, so we’re going to remove you from the group.” Vote-kick, done, but with due diligence to some basic kittening humanity.

If you want a Fun Run, join/create a “non-meta, teaching, all welcome” group. If people pop in with a case of the meter-jitters, just let them know that’s not the focus of the group, and they’ll either bail or chill out. If they continue to rage: “Hey, sorry, but you’re WAY too angry for this group, so we’re going to remove you.” Vote-kick, and lesson learned.

Because there are markers of entitlement all over this argument, and have been for a long while, not just in this thread:

“I can kick people for whatever reason even though I didn’t say anything or tell anyone why.”
No, that’s being cowardly.

“I demand people adhere to my play style and can join whatever group I want, that’s what LFG is for!”
Yer probably the kind of person who ignores warning labels, too. Don’t be that person.

“PUGs are so irritating but I just want a [fast|fun] group that does exactly what I want every time!”
Have you considered a guild? Seriously, do it. Remove your toxicity from LFG.

“I’m afraid to make my own group…”
Don’t be! Just be sure to communicate what the group is for. And as extra insurance, only use LFG to fill in up to two spots. Bring two friends along so your group doesn’t get hijacked.

tl;dr – Communicate!
It’s not hard to be nice and still get what you want, folks.

Dextra.8162:

Miku.6297:

Dextra.8162:

Or say:

Casual T4’s, 2hr run YAY.

The attitude here is what people don’t like.

And the other half of us don’t like the attitudes of those thinking they are entitled to get rewarded for selfish play and behavior.

So let me see if I get this right, coming in to a run that has no specified rules with your own build just playing to have fun is a bad attitude? Many people who run “sub optimal” specs simply enjoy playing the game their way. Some players are unable to play at the “meta” level: a player I know had a stroke and can only use his right hand. His dps is a bit lower then others when it comes to moving and fighting, so that makes him “entitled” or his play and behavior “selfish”.

Seriously; expecting everyone to play how YOU want all the time is just as selfish if not more then then them wanting to play their way. If someone enters a run that says speed run, DPS etc then I understand. The attitude I’m referring to is the toxicity in some of the posts, and the assumption that anyone not playing “meta builds” wants to be carried for free.

Harper.4173:

TheGrimm.5624:

*Tools that empower players to be kitten to others to me are a bad idea. The fact that this thread was started already proves this was an issue. *

Nobody needs a tool for that. If I want to be a kitten I can do it without any dps meter.
If I want to kick I can kick based on anything I want – LI, AP, “you went down too much”, etc.

If you think the addition of a dps meter changes anything – you’re just wrong.
Bad players get kicked. It’s been like this since 2012.

People will attempt to kick for whatever they want since groups no longer have a super user of sorts.

But I am quite right when I say to me DPS meters will empower rude behavior in some others. Since I stated my own opinion I have zero chance of being wrong unless my split personality has manifested itself again but I think it was in check when I posted my own opinion. Thanks though always good to double check.

Rauderi.8706:

TheOrlyFactor.8341:

I’m seeing entitlement on both sides of this argument but don’t mind me, I’m just enjoying the theatrics.

Right?
All I can really ask out of the PUG community (which I’m not specifically a part of because omg guilds in Guild Wars how to they happen) is that they label their groups to attract the right people in the first place.

If you want to dictate how people play, join/create a “meta, ArcDPS required” group. And don’t be a jackkitten when someone joins the group that happens to be sub-par.
“Hey, sorry, but our group said meter required and you don’t have one, so we’re going to remove you from the group.” Vote-kick, done, but with due diligence to some basic kittening humanity.

If you want a Fun Run, join/create a “non-meta, teaching, all welcome” group. If peopl pop in with a case of the meter-jitters, just let them know that’s not the focus of the group, and they’ll either bail or chill out. If they continue to rage: “Hey, sorry, but you’re WAY too angry for this group, so we’re going to remove you.” Vote-kick, and lesson learned.

Because there are markers of entitlement all over this argument, and have been for a long while, not just in this thread:

“I can kick people for whatever reason even though I didn’t say anything or tell anyone why.”
No, that’s being cowardly.

“I demand people adhere to my play style and can join whatever group I want, that’s what LFG is for!”
Yer probably the kind of person who ignores warning labels, too. Don’t be that person.

“PUGs are so irritating but I just want a [fast|fun] group that does exactly what I want every time!”
Have you considered a guild? Seriously, do it. Remove your toxicity from LFG.

“I’m afraid to make my own group…”
Don’t be! Just be sure to communicate what the group is for. And as extra insurance, only use LFG to fill in up to two spots. Bring two friends along so your group doesn’t get hijacked.

tl;dr – Communicate!
It’s not hard to be nice and still get what you want, folks.

I think you hit it on the head. Shocking to talk to people you are grouping with or just get your own group or take 2 seconds to communicate. Amazeballs this. Good gaming to you!

TheOrlyFactor.8341:

I’m seeing entitlement on both sides of this argument but don’t mind me, I’m just enjoying the theatrics.

Add in your account name and this will keep me smiling all day.

Could be easy however, Anet implements a key who want to show there dps ,and the tool makers act accordingly. OR BETTER Anet just implement this themselves in the UI, no fuss, no grey zone just a better interface and better control for Anet

RedZebra.2345:

Could be easy however, Anet implements a key who want to show there dps ,and the tool makers act accordingly. OR BETTER Anet just implement this themselves in the UI, no fuss, no grey zone just a better interface and better control for Anet

LFG: exp, pots + food + activated dps key

mmm didn’t long for you to type this, and as i said reading out memory is gray zone. Anet sees the benefit of this dps meter for the raiding part, so they should implement it them self and hence have more control over it. Tos seams now a vague paper.,

Go and make your own party. It’s not hard, you don’t wanna queue with hardcore players don’t leave and make your own party.

Hardcore people not going into Open World PvE saying your dps sucks are they? But you come into raids in there territory expecting them to play by your rules? Seems a bit entitled.

I’m not a hardcore player i used to be i came back to this game because i wanted a casual experience which i get everyday. I don’t go around raids or high end fotm and underperform and rage at Anet because i was kick for underperforming i just take the loss and go home because I am the one not in the right not them, people are expecting you to the best or atleast above average, if your not and you know your not don’t waste the other people’s time.

Genesis, gw2 is created to be fun for everyone. Hardcore or casual and Anet tries to please both. Tools are great but in my opinion, dps meteres are atm gamemaking for raids (you could discuss if they should trow in a more random part so healing becomes more valid). On the other hand people feel getting taking in their privacy, gw2 should be fun, you can do what you want as they stated in the release.
That’s why i say to Anet take the control back and make it fun for both.
and give us a better ui

Arc:
http://www.deltaconnected.com/arcdps/

This is for the person who asked earlier about it.

Xarallei you forgot to say that he also removed the uncompliant version from the moment the other tool’s author was banned

Actually, he removed the gearcheck portion a while ago. As I already said in my prior post, Delta is in conversation with Chris Cleary. He removed the gearcheck and kept, but separated the qol feature build templates after Chris told him to do those things. After the latest fiasco with BG, he then took down the build templates to await further clarification from Chris about whether it’s okay or not. He explained all this in the reddit thread.

y sorry i know he’s ok, he’s following all what Anet ask’s. And i have great respect for what he achieved with his tool. But still i want to pressure ANET for giving us a better UI in many ways. And they should integrate what he has done. Still Anet has to find the middle for all, every gamemode has elites but they are just a tiny % of all players. So I prefer Anet in control.

Well, yes I think most of us would prefer this kind of stuff just built in. Not to mention the ability to just change up your UI generally. GW1 had more ways to customize UI than GW2 has.

I just want to have the choice to decide if I want to show my DPS to others or not. I don’t like that dps meters like Arc show my -not accurate- DPS if I don’t what to show it!

I’m just tired of dps races when I don’t even wanna be part of it.

In my opinion it shouldn’t be allowed to show the DPS of every person of your group, only your own should be.

Faaris.8013:

RedZebra.2345:

Could be easy however, Anet implements a key who want to show there dps ,and the tool makers act accordingly. OR BETTER Anet just implement this themselves in the UI, no fuss, no grey zone just a better interface and better control for Anet

LFG: exp, pots + food + activated dps key

Well, that would at least put the requirement right in the LFG, instead of players trying to enforce requirements that weren’t stated.

Ferelwing.8463:

What makes someone the bad guy is when they do it in an insulting manner.

Problem is nowadays anyone can consider anything insulting. I kick you – you’re insulted.
I tell you I don’t like your play style – you’re insulted and I’m an elitist.

If I kick someone for being bad – even if the LFG didn’t specifically “don’t be bad” am I wrong?
Does “be experienced” cover the notion of “don’t die every time we fight mobs?”
Do I have to write volumes in my LFG detailing everything?

Miku.6297:

Dextra.8162:

Miku.6297:

Dextra.8162:

Or say:

Casual T4’s, 2hr run YAY.

The attitude here is what people don’t like.

And the other half of us don’t like the attitudes of those thinking they are entitled to get rewarded for selfish play and behavior.

So let me see if I get this right, coming in to a run that has no specified rules with your own build just playing to have fun is a bad attitude? Many people who run “sub optimal” specs simply enjoy playing the game their way. Some players are unable to play at the “meta” level: a player I know had a stroke and can only use his right hand. His dps is a bit lower then others when it comes to moving and fighting, so that makes him “entitled” or his play and behavior “selfish”.

Seriously; expecting everyone to play how YOU want all the time is just as selfish if not more then then them wanting to play their way. If someone enters a run that says speed run, DPS etc then I understand. The attitude I’m referring to is the toxicity in some of the posts, and the assumption that anyone not playing “meta builds” wants to be carried for free.

It does make it selfish and entitled if he joins 4 other players that don’t want him.
It’s the exact same thing – I want something – you want something – we’re both just as right and just as wrong.
Best thing is to not play together.

Like I said – playing a meta build or close to it is a sign that you want to fully contribute to the team. Not doing it is a sign that you value yourself more than the other people in the party if that group is indeed a meta group.
You want your cake and you want to eat it too.

Miku.6297:

Dextra.8162:

Miku.6297:

Dextra.8162:

Or say:

Casual T4’s, 2hr run YAY.

The attitude here is what people don’t like.

And the other half of us don’t like the attitudes of those thinking they are entitled to get rewarded for selfish play and behavior.

So let me see if I get this right, coming in to a run that has no specified rules with your own build just playing to have fun is a bad attitude? Many people who run “sub optimal” specs simply enjoy playing the game their way. Some players are unable to play at the “meta” level: a player I know had a stroke and can only use his right hand. His dps is a bit lower then others when it comes to moving and fighting, so that makes him “entitled” or his play and behavior “selfish”.

Seriously; expecting everyone to play how YOU want all the time is just as selfish if not more then then them wanting to play their way. If someone enters a run that says speed run, DPS etc then I understand. The attitude I’m referring to is the toxicity in some of the posts, and the assumption that anyone not playing “meta builds” wants to be carried for free.

It is incredibly rude if the listing specified that they want meta or speedclear exp. You know full well that these people don’t want sub-optimal specs, but you join them anyway? Yeah, that’s rude. (General you btw, not you specifically). On the other hand if the person only lists “VG” and nothing else. Well, that’s on them…

Many of these issues stem from people either not listing their group correctly in the lfg or people not reading the lfg listing properly. If you list your raid, list it very clearly. Whether it’s “all welcome/laid back” or “training” or “meta exp” and “speedclear.” And people joining need to respect those listings. Otherwise, they should not be shocked and come crying here when they get kicked.