Guild Wars 2

Randulf.7614:

I’m not seeing the pay to win element here. Where is the gameplay advantage from sprockets? How would this be any different from saying using real money to buy gems to make gold to buy sprockets? This is just an extra step in the process.

Also, we can get sprockets from the current meta and boss rewards. There is nothing to say watchwork drops aren’t permanent as we don’t know if the watchwork mobs are staying around post-season LS.

We can ignore the sprockets themselves and replace them with hypothetical item X.

This is the only mine pick which gives you a 20% chance of getting item X. There is no other pick there.

And as previously mentioned, this is different than ‘buying’ gold through gem sales because the gold you bought is used to buy items that can be acquired through other means, such as tokens and in game gold.

The key point here is alternative use. If there are no alternative ways (across mining picks) to get item X then it’s P2W.

What exactly are people winning here that makes this “Pay to win”? Sprockets? You can have mine! They’re useless!

Pay 2 Win Example: Paying real money to buy a weapon that does 10 times more damage then any weapon you could get for free from playing the game.
This item is NOT Pay 2 Win.
It takes 6 minutes to farm enough in game currency to buy 500 Watchwork Sprocket.
How is this is any way gamebreaking?
I’m sorry, but it just seems like you’re complaining about nothing here.

Vol.7601:

The key point here is alternative use. If there are no alternative ways (across mining picks) to get item X then it’s P2W.

By this logic, all current shop skins are P2W because they can’t be obtained elsewhere.

P2W means paying to be at an advantage, not paying to get something different.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Vol.7601:

The key point here is alternative use. If there are no alternative ways (across mining picks) to get item X then it’s P2W.

By this logic, all current shop skins are P2W because they can’t be obtained elsewhere.

P2W means paying to be at an advantage, not paying to get something different.

Except that you can convert gold to gems.

Vol.7601:

Except that you can convert gold to gems.

And you can use that gold to buy the items from the TP.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Beldin.5498:

I remember that when you payed around 25 Gold for the first picks people did the math and said that you have to harvest maybe 65.000 time so that you have started to save money against buying orichalcum picks.

Now .. if you have harvest over 65.000 that item will suddenly also be pay to win since every 100 picks you save the money you would else have to pay for a new pick.

Now however a new pick costs what ? 80 Gold maybe ? So you have to pick maybe 180.000 times to get back the money. If you save 6,7 copper per pick now because of the sprockets you will maybe still have to pick over 100.000 times that the investment pays of.

And because this is highly unrealistic, and demands a really heavy time investment and devout dedication, there is nothing remotely close to P2W behind this mining pick.

Even in the day where players will finally save money out of this, they will do so not because they “bought to win”, but because of their crazy dedication.

Yepp .. its in the end not more P2W as if they say we sell it for 900 instead 1000 this time. It just makes the thing payoff a little earlier .. still its a loooong run to get the payoff.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Vol.7601:

Except that you can convert gold to gems.

And you can use that gold to buy the items from the TP.

We’re not thinking at the same level here:

Across mining picks, there are zero alternatives to get the 20% chance at item X. OF course you can convert your gold to gems but that’s not the argument here

And I fogot to mention – unlike the novelty of gem store skins, this pick is not novelty. It directly gives you something of value that other picks do not.

I have been warning people quite a while now about the P2W state of the game and the shift towards a more P2W model for several months now. This just reinforces that precedent imo.

I really hope I’m wrong, but I have had a hunch this was inevitable for quite some time.

There is no pay to win.

I haven’t bought a single gem with RL cash. I however bought the pick. If you want the pick, spend the 90 gold. If you can’t afford it, then you need to farm for the next one.

Vol.7601:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Vol.7601:

Except that you can convert gold to gems.

And you can use that gold to buy the items from the TP.

We’re not thinking at the same level here:

Across mining picks, there are zero alternatives to get the 20% chance at item X. OF course you can convert your gold to gems but that’s not the argument here

And I fogot to mention – unlike the novelty of gem store skins, this pick is not novelty. It directly gives you something of value that other picks do not.

All the infinite picks give you something of value… never having to buy more picks from the vendor. That slowly but definitely adds up over time.

I think it’s fine. Nothing game breaking. Most people don’t care about harvesting anyway and that would make the Living Story P2W as well. People that weren’t participating in the past Living Story haven’t got the nodes for their home instance and they have no way to get it.

Everyone can convert gold into gems, so it’s not really P2W in any sense.

Holy kitten kitten. Vol and Lordkrall have gone against Anet on something. H-e-double hockey sticks have frozen over and the sky is falling.

If that’s not a sign of something being wrong idk what is…..lol.

I agree with the others on principle. I have no problem with cosmetic and convenience items in the gem store, but this does set a bad precedent where you pay real money to get something you can’t get elsewhere that actually provides a financial benefit.

Vol.7601:

Randulf.7614:

I’m not seeing the pay to win element here. Where is the gameplay advantage from sprockets? How would this be any different from saying using real money to buy gems to make gold to buy sprockets? This is just an extra step in the process.

Also, we can get sprockets from the current meta and boss rewards. There is nothing to say watchwork drops aren’t permanent as we don’t know if the watchwork mobs are staying around post-season LS.

We can ignore the sprockets themselves and replace them with hypothetical item X.

This is the only mine pick which gives you a 20% chance of getting item X. There is no other pick there.

And as previously mentioned, this is different than ‘buying’ gold through gem sales because the gold you bought is used to buy items that can be acquired through other means, such as tokens and in game gold.

The key point here is alternative use. If there are no alternative ways (across mining picks) to get item X then it’s P2W.

Why ignore sprockets and replace tho? There is nothing to say this something that will always happen. And even it it happened for say gold, or mithril, well there are other ways to gain those – eg salvaging, mining, so that would be even less pay to win.

If someone is buying the pick for the sprocket gain, they are worse off since they could buy thousands with the gem conversion. I still can’t see the gameplay advantage here that makes it pay 2 win. If the pick gave an item which was exclusive and made an item which made you stronger…then we are in p2w territory.

Also sprockets drop from Invasions. And there’s nothing to say they wont drop if these mobs are also in EOTM as well.

Qaelyn.7612:

I agree with the others on principle. I have no problem with cosmetic and convenience items in the gem store, but this does set a bad precedent where you pay real money to get something you can’t get elsewhere that actually provides a financial benefit.

People who didn’t participate in the Living Story have no way to get the nodes for their home instance. And you can convert gold to gems, using in-game currency to buy stuff from the gem store.

This is thread is only about people being picky and smelling something that could possibly be P2W without really thinking it through. It doesn’t add anything constructive. I’m glad i and a few others could be constructive at least, to prove you wrong.

It’s funny how everytime ArenaNet release a patch that gets me in a good mood (Marionette is awesome, Taimi is cool, lots of lore, well done!) they end up annoying the stuffing out of me with their next patch. An ‘even better’ limited edition infinite gathering tool? AND Scarlet in the Edge of the Mists?

DOUBLEYOUTEEEFFF?

Randulf.7614:

Vol.7601:

Randulf.7614:

I’m not seeing the pay to win element here. Where is the gameplay advantage from sprockets? How would this be any different from saying using real money to buy gems to make gold to buy sprockets? This is just an extra step in the process.

Also, we can get sprockets from the current meta and boss rewards. There is nothing to say watchwork drops aren’t permanent as we don’t know if the watchwork mobs are staying around post-season LS.

We can ignore the sprockets themselves and replace them with hypothetical item X.

This is the only mine pick which gives you a 20% chance of getting item X. There is no other pick there.

And as previously mentioned, this is different than ‘buying’ gold through gem sales because the gold you bought is used to buy items that can be acquired through other means, such as tokens and in game gold.

The key point here is alternative use. If there are no alternative ways (across mining picks) to get item X then it’s P2W.

Why ignore sprockets and replace tho? There is nothing to say this something that will always happen. And even it it happened for say gold, or mithril, well there are other ways to gain those – eg salvaging, mining, so that would be even less pay to win.

If someone is buying the pick for the sprocket gain, they are worse off since they could buy thousands with the gem conversion. I still can’t see the gameplay advantage here that makes it pay 2 win. If the pick gave an item which was exclusive and made an item which made you stronger…then we are in p2w territory.

Also sprockets drop from Invasions. And there’s nothing to say they wont drop if these mobs are also in EOTM as well.

I removed sprockets out of the equation because the fact that they are sprockets themselves isn’t too important. It could be orbs, crystals, spores, whatever.

Th issue I have specifically is that there is no other alternative to get these items with other picks.

Now if we were to give consideration of sprockets, you do not know the value of these in the near future. Mari will be gone, invasions could very well be gone (yes they said they were permanent but how would that fit with LS moving forward?). So the only way to get sprockets is to mine them in your instance or have this pick.

Hmmm….

Are sprockects an issue right now? Not at all.

But what happends 6~8 months from now when there are no more watchwork minions to get sprockets from and Anet adds value to the sprockets by making them necessary in ludicrous proportions (think 10’s of thousands like the candy corn) for some of the new legendarys? Or they become needed in legendary armor? Or even if you need them to craft a re-skinned greatsaw or something.

Then the only way to get those items will be to have done the origins of madness meta, which won’t be available for everyone, or buy this item.

While it won’t give a statistical advantage over another player it will create opportunity for those that buy it to increase their wealth and have access to skins / items that other simply can’t get. In a cosmetic heavy game, this is kinda of a big deal.

I am looking at the Watchwork Pick in the store right now and it doesn’t say that it has a chance to give sprockets on gathering. Do you have to buy it before you see this?

Totally agree with the OP.

ANet, this is one of those times you have to listen to what we say.

You’ve done amazing job recently with the new Wurm and Marionette, but let’s hope this pick thing is just a misunderstanding!

I know what you are saying, but atm there are a few sources for sprockets – invasions, marionette, tp, the node. Until all other sources dry up – and we don’t know if that ever will – it’s a difficult argument to use. Even if they do, well I still maintain this isn’t p2w as there is no real advantage, but could see how it be annoying to people.

Odinsfury.8360:

I am looking at the Watchwork Pick in the store right now and it doesn’t say that it has a chance to give sprockets on gathering. Do you have to buy it before you see this?

News page

A recent breakthrough in mining technology has let us make a new infinite mining pick. This self-repairing pick has a chance to add a Watchwork Sprocket to the rewards when used to mine ore veins!

Randulf.7614:

I know what you are saying, but atm there are a few sources for sprockets – invasions, marionette, tp, the node. Until all other sources dry up – and we don’t know if that ever will – it’s a difficult argument to use. Even if they do, well I still maintain this isn’t p2w as there is no real advantage, but could see how it be annoying to people.

I would say it is more an issue with the ability itself rather than specifically sprockets.
Sure sprockets are plentiful, but what if the next one gives Azurite instead?

THAT is the potential issue.

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

1. I don’t see the Pay 2 Win in it since I have already got a Sprocket lode in my home.
2. I am probably going to get one since I need a infinete mining pick.
3. I was pretty sure something like this where comming when seeing this rare Sprocket crafting thing that costs 500 sprockets to make.
4. For some reason I don’t think Scarlet minion attacks will stop even after scarlet LS, maby it will be remoduled to be interesting again.
5. Sprockets are not gone yet, don’t write doomsday on your calendar just yet but I see your point (Your = People who’s opinion it is pay2win).

Has anyone said what that Sprocket thing is?

I too, don’t really understand this thread. You have the Sprocket Node which isn’t very hard to get. Just do either the wurm or the Marionette 11 days in a row and BAM you have the node.

Not sure where the dilemma is. The Sprockets also don’t make any one player > then another.

I also disagree with this addition to the gem store.

Xar.6185:

Hmmm….

Are sprockects an issue right now? Not at all.

But what happends 6~8 months from now when there are no more watchwork minions to get sprockets from and Anet adds value to the sprockets by making them necessary in ludicrous proportions (think 10’s of thousands like the candy corn) for some of the new legendarys? Or they become needed in legendary armor? Or even if you need them to craft a re-skinned greatsaw or something.

Then the only way to get those items will be to have done the origins of madness meta, which won’t be available for everyone, or buy this item.

While it won’t give a statistical advantage over another player it will create opportunity for those that buy it to increase their wealth and have access to skins / items that other simply can’t get. In a cosmetic heavy game, this is kinda of a big deal.

Then the problem won’t be this tool, but the design decisions behind using a cash shop item for future recipes. Anet could do the same and demand future recipes to require black lion chests – does that makes the chests are P2W right now?

As long as sprockets are available on the TP, any gold/ gems spent on this pick could be spent on them instead. So there’s always an alternative.

Completely agree with OP.
This isn’t ok.
The sprockets may not be worth much, but this mining tool gives a clear advantage over everyone else.
Advantage in acquiring value.
Not much, but it is an advantage in acquiring value.
Thus it is pay 2 win.

And most importantly.
If this is accepted by us, what’s the next step?
An infinite tool that gives you 1 more ore of the type you’re mining?
4 orichalcum instead of 3 for each node.
I say no.

Infinite tools are ok, tools that give more value than others are not.

Since always you can buy gems and exchange them for gold = noone cares.

They add items that you buy for gems that can give you more gold = big cry.

Gems ALWAYS were option to get more in game gold by using real money. This pick changes nothing. And no, gold doesn’t win anything in this game.

lordkrall.7241:

Randulf.7614:

I know what you are saying, but atm there are a few sources for sprockets – invasions, marionette, tp, the node. Until all other sources dry up – and we don’t know if that ever will – it’s a difficult argument to use. Even if they do, well I still maintain this isn’t p2w as there is no real advantage, but could see how it be annoying to people.

I would say it is more an issue with the ability itself rather than specifically sprockets.
Sure sprockets are plentiful, but what if the next one gives Azurite instead?

THAT is the potential issue.

An issue if it happens and even then I’m unconvinced, but I can see a clearer argument if it did. I would say that is something to raise down the line though. The argument atm is people saying it is P2W right now, which I’m not seeing.

Welcome to the world of pay-to-win.

This game had so much potential, but they had to destroy it for a dollar :/

Hmmm.. I’m going to have to side with the “this was a bad move” group on this one. It definitely pushes the boundaries of ‘Pay to Win.’ Those extra sprockets, while perhaps not all that important, will accumulate over time, and those that have the picks will have the ability to mine them for as long as they play the game. It can and will be a source of gold income for those players, and even if it’s a minimal amount of income, it’s still an issue.

And that says nothing for the fact that if these picks are a successful sale for ANet, what would stop them from doing it with something slightly more useful, over and over again, until the game does truly become pay to win?

Mikuchan.7261:

Completely agree with OP.
This isn’t ok.
The sprockets may not be worth much, but this mining tool gives a clear advantage over everyone else.
Advantage in acquiring value.
Not much, but it is an advantage in acquiring value.
Thus it is pay 2 win.

Where is the advantage of spending 1000 gems to very slowly gain a few sprockets?

You are greatly losing money out of this, and the only way to get any value is through very high dedication. Which is the opposite of P2W (get things by paying for them instead of working for them).

Randulf.7614:

An issue if it happens and even then I’m unconvinced, but I can see a clearer argument if it did. I would say that is something to raise down the line though. The argument atm is people saying it is P2W right now, which I’m not seeing.

That is indeed true.
Currently it is not really an issue, but I think that the OP is talking about that it could become and issue in the future, P2W might not be the right word though.

Neural.1824:

Welcome to the world of pay-to-win.

This game had so much potential, but they had to destroy it for a dollar :/

In Anet’s defense, all they are doing is what NC$oft tells them to do, and NC$oft is in full on panic mode I would imagine at the releases coming out in 2014/2015 and the lack of enthusiasm for another WoW clone (Wildstar).

I wanted one of these for my engineer, but knowing this I probably won’t. It’s a cool item and I would like to buy it, but somewhere does someone has to say that things like this are not ok. Guess I’ll take one for the team.

lordkrall.7241:

shootist.3607:

They hired a former Nexon ‘expert’ for monetization, afaik. Doesn’t this say everything?

They did hire say expert several MONTHS BEFORE the release of the game though. So it is not something new. And if she did all this, one would wonder why she waited over a year with it.

Maybe revenue from the cash shop is slowing? If that’s the case, then I wonder how far they’re willing to go down this slippery slope.

It’s like the thread title says, a precedent.

So someone mentioned we can buy armour skins. Yes we can, but they don’t add anything (other than appeal to your taste) compared to other skins available in game.

To me this would be equal as to say the tools are double as effective as regular in-game tools. Imagine armour skins would add another stat that you cannot find in-game otherwise.

I might not care about the monetary value or the item in question or the advantage it gives – but I care about the precedent it sets.

Fast forward two years into the future, the new T8 materials, only available in your home instance through the store bought nodes or the new gathering tools that have a chance to drop them.

Exaggerated? Maybe, but better to make your opinion heard now than when it’s too late.

I agree that this new tool’s ability can potentially become a problem in the future, but so can anything else currently available in the shop, and the shop itself. Yes, even the current, harmless buyable skins might become a problem in the future.

With or without this new mining pick, what ultimately decides if the game is P2W or not, is not this new ability, but how Anet decides to execute it. And so far, their execution is still within the realm of cosmetic fluff or convenience.

lordkrall.7241:

kokiman.2364:

So people get used to it cough accountbound dyes cough

You mean the change made quite some time before release, and with the alternative being a rather grindy mess that most people probably would have hated even more than the current system?

Spin it any way you want, but there were other alternatives that featured neither “grindy messes” nor character-bound dyes could have been explored. The change wasn’t made to save anyone a grindy mess, it was done to increase dye pack sales. I don’t understand how anyone can claim otherwise.

And note that while I would obviously prefer account-bound dyes, I don’t really have a problem with them being character-bound since they’re just cosmetic items. But this…this is something entirely different. This I have a problem with.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Mikuchan.7261:

Completely agree with OP.
This isn’t ok.
The sprockets may not be worth much, but this mining tool gives a clear advantage over everyone else.
Advantage in acquiring value.
Not much, but it is an advantage in acquiring value.
Thus it is pay 2 win.

Where is the advantage of spending 1000 gems to very slowly gain a few sprockets?

You are greatly losing money out of this, and the only way to get any value is through very high dedication. Which is the opposite of P2W (get things by paying for them instead of working for them).

It’s not about the raw economy of the item, the problem is the precedent that it sets. Arenanet is plainly stating that they are willing to allow people to pay for an advantage. Whether or not that little trick is profitable doesn’t matter, because it makes it quite clear that in their mind it is OK to pay for advantage over others. It is a potential pebble that starts the landslide to things that do let you profit relatively quickly.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Mikuchan.7261:

Completely agree with OP.
This isn’t ok.
The sprockets may not be worth much, but this mining tool gives a clear advantage over everyone else.
Advantage in acquiring value.
Not much, but it is an advantage in acquiring value.
Thus it is pay 2 win.

Where is the advantage of spending 1000 gems to very slowly gain a few sprockets?

You are greatly losing money out of this, and the only way to get any value is through very high dedication. Which is the opposite of P2W (get things by paying for them instead of working for them).

What you pay for the tool isn’t relevant.
The advantage is that no other non-gemstore mining tool has the option.
Sprockets are also a limited resource. It cannot be bought from NPCs, only from players. They are generated by mob drops and the home instance node.
No matter how worthless they are right now, it’s an advantage on that plane as well.

And it will be even more of an advantage if sprockets are no longer dropped.
Someone without the home instance node or the tool can generate 0 daily.
Someone with the node but without the tool can generate 3 daily.
Someone with the tool regardless if they have the node or not can generate as many as they want as long as there are ore nodes to mine.

If Anet came out with a redesigned molten pick that had a 20% chance of Azurite Crystal (3 s worth now), I’m sure people would be up in arms.

Again, this isn’t about sprockets, it’s about the extra items you get themselves, and the lack of alternative picks that give you the same chance.

Vol.7601:

If Anet came out with a redesigned molten pick that had a 20% chance of Azurite Crystal (3 s worth now), I’m sure people would be up in arms.

Again, this isn’t about sprockets, it’s about the extra items you get themselves, and the lack of alternative picks that give you the same chance.

I’m pretty sure that Anet is betting on the forum being a ‘small minority" that they can ignore with their P2W scheme. People need to get the word out to their guilds and get non-forum players to speak up as well. Sadly it is likely that Anet has already calculated that risk and found they can get away with it, otherwise it wouldn’t have been implemented.

Remember, the Devs have said that this year they are going to change GW2 forever in a way that the players did not expect. :/

Indeed.

Hopefully they will, as suggested earlier in the thread, release in-game temporary tools with the same ability.
It would basically be a win-win.
They can still sell this item without much issues, and people can’t claim that you get unavailable advantages in the gem-store.

It is after all rather dangerous to change stuff (mechanically) that have already been sold.

Neural.1824:

Vol.7601:

If Anet came out with a redesigned molten pick that had a 20% chance of Azurite Crystal (3 s worth now), I’m sure people would be up in arms.

Again, this isn’t about sprockets, it’s about the extra items you get themselves, and the lack of alternative picks that give you the same chance.

I’m pretty sure that Anet is betting on the forum being a ‘small minority" that they can ignore with their P2W scheme. People need to get the word out to their guilds and get non-forum players to speak up as well. Sadly it is likely that Anet has already calculated that risk and found they can get away with it, otherwise it wouldn’t have been implemented.

Remember, the Devs have said that this year they are going to change GW2 forever in a way that the players did not expect. :/

That statement does seem all the more ominous now that this has happened. All we can do is give our opinions and hope for the best.

As Vol already stated, it’s not about the sprockets. Just the other day, on our guild Teamspeak, we we’re doing a dungeon and someone say, “Darn, I’m out of salvage kits!”. I’ve said how I love my Fed-O-Matic for unlimited salvages, and how it’s a great item. A guildy then said that someone did the math and you had to salvage thousands of items in order to break even on your purchase. But I did not buy it cause of the economic value, but cause of convinience. It was great for me and well worth it.

Case here, with this new pick (I have all the unlimited ones and I just love them) is that with a Gem Store item you’re getting something others are not. With the example above, it’s purely convinience. I hate to have lots of kits for salvage and it’s great. But, it’s not giving me an edge over others in any way. But with the new pick, you pay money (or convert) and you get a pick that has a bonus effect. Now, sprockets may not be highly valued at the moment, but that’s not the point.

The point, Vol and many others, including me, are making, is that this is a dangerous path they are taking. It will be a thin line to cross to go to the pay-to-win scenarios. I already hate that you have a lot of new armours on the Gem Store but they are not obtainable in game. That is rather annoying and if they continue to do that more, I’ll never buy gems with real cash again. Even might leave this game, even tho I enjoy it. It’s a matter of principle. I’m not here to be drain dry of my money, in a such way.

Today, sprockets. Tomorrow? Ecto’s? A kit that salvages ectos with a chance to get one more extra? Will you be upset then?

Yeah, I have to say I was waiting for another perma pick to buy because I have been lazy and didn’t get the prior ones. But I don’t think I can buy this one on moral grounds. So I guess I have to wait for another one without the p2w aspect…

Spiderwick.1879:

As Vol already stated, it’s not about the sprockets. Just the other day, on our guild Teamspeak, we we’re doing a dungeon and someone say, “Darn, I’m out of salvage kits!”. I’ve said how I love my Fed-O-Matic for unlimited salvages, and how it’s a great item. A guildy then said that someone did the math and you had to salvage thousands of items in order to break even on your purchase. But I did not buy it cause of the economic value, but cause of convinience. It was great for me and well worth it.

I think it’s worth pointing out that when the slavage-o-matic came out, silk and cotton were not worth nearly what they are now, nor was essence-of-luck in existence. In my venture towards “more magic find!” I’m pretty sure I’ve burned through a thousand or so blues/greens, and the materials I’ve salvaged from them are worth a decent amount (example: they aren’t the most valueable, but I have over 1000 mithril ingots just sitting around, and I’ve not gone to mine mithril specifically in quite a while. I get most of it from salvaging).
Of all the infini-tools in the game, I think the salvage-o-matic is the one that most easily starts to pay itself off.

Anathem.5760:

So you think 1-2 random sprockets are P2W? Really? OMG, people, you are so….

Please, re read the thread. No one is up in arms about sprockets, it’s about what CAN happen in the future now that this is a reality.

Not only that, who is to say in 10 months sprockets won’t be worth a small fortune?