Guild Wars 2

It is my opinion that this design philosophy will backfire.

The downed state and rally mechanics are providing players with the tools to cover their mistakes. In the same way a healer covers your mistakes by babysitting your health bar in a traditional holy trinity model.

Turning every player into healers is not an improvement over removing healers.

Healers in the traditional MMO trinity model act as support in a group. But if you look deeper; what they’re actually doing is erasing the mistakes of their allies by filling up their health bars. The downed state is actually very similar. It allows every player to heal any player.

I think the developers will have a hard time making any content challenging. The game doesn’t punish bad play and encourage players to improve. Instead it creates an environment where making mistakes can be covered up by a friendly ally taking the time to help you get back up.

I think it’s actually the opposite.
But yeah every once in a while a traditional MMO player comes here to explain how better is the traditional way; if a lot of people are playing this is because they hate how gimmicky the old combat was – and how refreshing it is to have a skill-based game where you must time dodges/blocks carefully and quickly to be good, instead of having tank and healer carry you around.

Red Falcon.8257:

I think it’s actually the opposite.
But yeah every once in a while a traditional MMO player comes here to explain how better is the traditional way; if a lot of people are playing this is because they hate how gimmicky the old combat was – and how refreshing it is to have a skill-based game where you must time dodges/blocks carefully and quickly to be good, instead of having tank and healer carry you around.

Don’t get me wrong; I don’t advocate the old system in anyway. I find this one worse than the old one for the reasons stated above.

Any challenging content that the developers create will be fiercely rejected by the community for being “too hard”.

I respect your argument, but by saying that healers are “erasing the mistakes of their allies,” you’re implying that things like armor and shields are handicaps. By your logic, an ideal player should never take damage. Therefore any type of absorption or damage mitigation is just another mistake buffer. We should be battling in nothing but our underwear!

My personal experience is that other players are not always available or willing to lend a hand when I go down. It happens from time to time that someone tries to revive me, but usually my a** is running back from the nearest waypoint.

You have an interesting point and I’m curious what you’d propose as a fix. Are you arguing for just the removal of downed state, or something else? It almost seems like you’d want to see a death penalty of some sort, like a resurrection sickness, but I’m not sure.

This doesn’t have anything to do with healers, really. The problem, in my opinion, is that the game is way too forgiving. I believe it stems from the “active combat” mentality and everything that seems to follow. You can move and cast, cancel any skill at any time, and use spells to move even faster. The thing is, games with well-made action combat require the player to leverage movement, positioning and attack. GW2 doesn’t. It certainly gives the illusion of active combat, requiring constant strafing and all, but with the lack of trade-offs to each attack the game loses a lot of its depth. The constant strafing becomes a baseline of combat, not a tactic nor a reaction. If you make a bad move you can simply cancel and/or dodge. All in all, much less thought is put into combat.

I’d say these mechanics make the game worse because the developers likely use this as a basis for the game’s rapmpant CC distributions. “Players are moving too much and are able to cancel their spells. Let’s give everything cc otherwise the game would be too easy.”

GW2 is more of – use up your dodges, and stabilities and you have to wait for someone to heal you from downed, or dead.

For traditional MMO’s, it’s integral that the healer heal the tank for doing his designated job…soaking up damage for everyone, and keeping agro. It’s not an admission of mistakes if your getting healed. It’s when the healer dies, then there’s been a mistake.

Calae.1738:

Healers in the traditional MMO trinity model act as support in a group. But if you look deeper; what they’re actually doing is erasing the mistakes of their allies by filling up their health bars. The downed state is actually very similar. It allows every player to heal any player.

Wrong. In a traditional mmo, you rarely have the ability to evade the damage as a dps class, because most mobs and bosses have some sort of attacks that do aoe dmg and is way better to take the hit and continue your dps. Also, healers are there mostly for the tank, because he needs to take the hits for the entire party.

On the other hand, in gw2, you can evade and mitigate almost anything is thrown at you.

Hope you see the difference and why there is no need of active and dedicated healers.

codpin.6542:

Calae.1738:

Healers in the traditional MMO trinity model act as support in a group. But if you look deeper; what they’re actually doing is erasing the mistakes of their allies by filling up their health bars. The downed state is actually very similar. It allows every player to heal any player.

Wrong. In a traditional mmo, you rarely have the ability to evade the damage as a dps class, because most mobs and bosses have some sort of attacks that do aoe dmg and is way better to take the hit and continue your dps. Also, healers are there mostly for the tank, because he needs to take the hits for the entire party.

On the other hand, in gw2, you can evade and mitigate almost anything is thrown at you.

Hope you see the difference and why there is no need of active and dedicated healers.

You misunderstood my post.

Developers in traditional MMOs have to account for healers and create content that has unavoidable damage. If all damage was avoidable; healers would be unnecessary.

In GW2 you can avoid damage.

Enter the downed state. When a giant monster smacks you in the face and puts you down; I can run up to you and heal you. But get this; my healing is uninterruptable by damage and the rate of healing is usually greater than the incoming damage. This mechanic turns everyone into healers.

So…

If everyone in the group is a healer; do the developers have to account for this? How do you design content that assumes everyone is a healer? Challenging content would require abilities that kill players through the downed state no? Isn’t that a contradicting design philosophy?

There is a downed penalty tho’.
And you cannot ress people while standing in a boss’ red circle, or get downed yourself.

You do get punished for downing. But it is forgiving yes, which imo isn’t a bad thing.

Calae.1738:

In GW2 you can avoid damage.

Enter the downed state. When a giant monster smacks you in the face and puts you down; I can run up to you and heal you. But get this; my healing is uninterruptable by damage and the rate of healing is usually greater than the incoming damage. This mechanic turns everyone into healers.

Have you played any dungeons/pvp? If you’re ressing someone, it means you’re not protecting yourself and effectively having two people out of combat instead of one, while mobs/enemies are freely raining damage on you. Ressing can be interrupted by daze/knockback/knockdown or just by downing the ressing party.

Downed state is there to prevent cheap and one-hit kills and it’s a great improvement over a traditional system.

Also, ability to avoid damage means it becomes much more about skill rather than your build, making most of the content solable, if you’re good enough and that’s a GOOD thing.

Seveleniumus.5973:

Calae.1738:

In GW2 you can avoid damage.

Enter the downed state. When a giant monster smacks you in the face and puts you down; I can run up to you and heal you. But get this; my healing is uninterruptable by damage and the rate of healing is usually greater than the incoming damage. This mechanic turns everyone into healers.

Have you played any dungeons/pvp? If you’re ressing someone, it means you’re not protecting yourself and effectively having two people out of combat instead of one, while mobs/enemies are freely raining damage on you. Ressing can be interrupted by daze/knockback/knockdown or just by downing the ressing party.

Downed state is there to prevent cheap and one-hit kills and it’s a great improvement over a traditional system.

Also, ability to avoid damage means it becomes much more about skill rather than your build, making most of the content solable, if you’re good enough and that’s a GOOD thing.

I don’t want to discuss PVP. I believe the downed state is why sPVP has such a miniscule representation. Trying to discuss this topic with players who support the downed state in the PVP environment is futile for the most part. The twitch players who demand high skill ceilings are turned off by the downed state; trying to convince them that the downed state is fun or promotes strategic gameplay isn’t going to work.

Stoneflesh.8634:

There is a downed penalty tho’.
And you cannot ress people while standing in a boss’ red circle, or get downed yourself.

You do get punished for downing. But it is forgiving yes, which imo isn’t a bad thing.

I’m trying to think of content that a developer could create that would be unforgiving enough in order to be deemed challenging. The only thing that I can think of is abilities that kill players through the downed state.

Which is kind of ironic because players are taught to heal their fallen allies during the leveling process.

When they enter content that prevents them from healing their downed allies (assuming this content exists) wouldn’t this cause confusion and make them think that the content is broken or too hard?

How about Grawl shaman in 25+ fractals?

Calae.1738:

I think the (GW2) developers will have a hard time making any content challenging. The game doesn’t punish bad play and encourage players to improve. Instead it creates an environment where making mistakes can be covered up by a friendly ally taking the time to help you get back up.

GW2 doesn’t punish bad play? Why does mob AoE always seem to center on the downed player? Why does every third thread in the dungeon forums seem to be about dungeons being “too hard?” Why is the response to these threads almost always “You just need to learn how to dodge, use skills, position, etc.?” In other words, “improve?”

Calae.1738:

When they enter content that prevents them from healing their downed allies (assuming this content exists) wouldn’t this cause confusion and make them think that the content is broken or too hard?

Since that is what is occurring, yes.

You’ve made the point in other threads that you do not find GW2 challenging. This thread seems like just another means to deliver your request for content that requires your level of dedication and twitch reflexes. My suggestion would be to ask for hard mode dungeons. While you’re at it, also support “easier mode” dungeons to keep the “too hard” crowd out of the theoretical harder content.

Open world content? MMO open world difficulty is always going to be tuned to the middle to low end of average play, not top tier skill. It does not hurt to ask, but don’t hold your breath.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Calae.1738:

I think the (GW2) developers will have a hard time making any content challenging. The game doesn’t punish bad play and encourage players to improve. Instead it creates an environment where making mistakes can be covered up by a friendly ally taking the time to help you get back up.

GW2 doesn’t punish bad play? Why does mob AoE always seem to center on the downed player? Why does every third thread in the dungeon forums seem to be about dungeons being “too hard?” Why is the response to these threads almost always “You just need to learn how to dodge, use skills, position, etc.?” In other words, “improve?”

Calae.1738:

When they enter content that prevents them from healing their downed allies (assuming this content exists) wouldn’t this cause confusion and make them think that the content is broken or too hard?

Since that is what is occurring, yes.

You’ve made the point in other threads that you do not find GW2 challenging. This thread seems like just another means to deliver your request for content that requires your level of dedication and twitch reflexes. My suggestion would be to ask for hard mode dungeons. While you’re at it, also support “easier mode” dungeons to keep the “too hard” crowd out of the theoretical harder content.

Open world content? MMO open world difficulty is always going to be tuned to the middle to low end of average play, not top tier skill. It does not hurt to ask, but don’t hold your breath.

I don’t think challenging content can co-exist with the downed state and rally mechanic.

Take the Grawl Shaman as an example. In my opinion; It’s one of the most fun encounters in the game and there are many complaints that it’s too hard. However there are elements to this fight that makes it feel weird. If the group AoEs all the elementals while putting up projectile deflection walls; their odds of rallying off one dead elemental is quite high. I have gone down and rallied at least 4 consecutive times in this encounter.

What I’m getting at here is that I’m purposefully playing bad by abusing the rally system. Unless of coarse this is intended design which would be quite funny to hear a developer admit.

Calae.1738:

Take the Grawl Shaman as an example. In my opinion; It’s one of the most fun encounters in the game and there are many complaints that it’s too hard. However there are elements to this fight that makes it feel weird. If the group AoEs all the elementals while putting up projectile deflection walls; their odds of rallying off one dead elemental is quite high. I have gone down and rallied at least 4 consecutive times in this encounter.

What I’m getting at here is that I’m purposefully playing bad by abusing the rally system. Unless of coarse this is intended design which would be quite funny to hear a developer admit.

There is a limit to how many times you can rally, you can’t rally forever (5th time is insta-kill if I’m not mistaken) also, each time you are downed you have less and less health so it’s difficult to survive under fire.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Calae.1738:

I think the (GW2) developers will have a hard time making any content challenging. The game doesn’t punish bad play and encourage players to improve. Instead it creates an environment where making mistakes can be covered up by a friendly ally taking the time to help you get back up.

GW2 doesn’t punish bad play? Why does mob AoE always seem to center on the downed player? Why does every third thread in the dungeon forums seem to be about dungeons being “too hard?” Why is the response to these threads almost always “You just need to learn how to dodge, use skills, position, etc.?” In other words, “improve?”

Calae.1738:

When they enter content that prevents them from healing their downed allies (assuming this content exists) wouldn’t this cause confusion and make them think that the content is broken or too hard?

Since that is what is occurring, yes.

You’ve made the point in other threads that you do not find GW2 challenging. This thread seems like just another means to deliver your request for content that requires your level of dedication and twitch reflexes. My suggestion would be to ask for hard mode dungeons. While you’re at it, also support “easier mode” dungeons to keep the “too hard” crowd out of the theoretical harder content.

Open world content? MMO open world difficulty is always going to be tuned to the middle to low end of average play, not top tier skill. It does not hurt to ask, but don’t hold your breath.

I agree that MMO’s are not about crushing challenge in the open world. But, Anet has explicitly stated that they were addressing challenge with the grenth temple fight and, I assume, with the buffs to the krait and undead in various DE’s. From the volume of downed players and failed events I seriously doubt they are tuning the open world for the middle to low end of average play currently unless the world tilted and all the bad players fell into GW2.

Personally, I think combat is confused at this point. It is both too forgiving and too punishing. I personally don’t like having the downed state in the game, and you could argue that it is too forgiving and limits challenge. On the other hand combat often is punishing as is witnessed by the massive failure that you see everyday in the open world now. Let me give you an example from yesterdays play. I was fighting a champ from range at shelter last night. I was at full health one minute and defeated a second later. What happened? I certainly didn’t know so I consulted the combat log. It seems that an arcing shot came from the particle blur that is center screen and hit me for 24k, instantly defeating me. I was paying attention and saw nothing to indicate that anything was coming my way. This happens frequently enough to characterize GW2 combat for me. It’s not challenging. Challenging is when you can do a postmortem and understand what you did wrong and what correction you need to put in place. This is where I feel that combat is confused. In many ways it lacks challenge and at the same time it sometimes feels punishing.

Bottom line, I think they are still trying to figure out combat. And, that’s why threads like this are helpful.

how can you play bad in a traditional tab-cycle mmorpg in the first place?

if GW2, as it’s battle mechanics are designed now, have got a healer instead of a downed-state, some bosses and almost all dungeons would be impossible.

imagine playing left4dead, only one of the four protagonists would be able to carry medipacks and instead of the downed state, you just would be dead.

someone should mod it that way and call it “left4hardcore” or something.

i know, that comparison isn’t perfect, since it’s a different genre, but GW2 tries to design dungeons like some FPS’s campaigns and sPvP like FPS online matches.
which is a pretty cool idea imo. needs alot of polishing tho.

Calae.1738:

It is my opinion that this design philosophy will backfire.

The downed state and rally mechanics are providing players with the tools to cover their mistakes. In the same way a healer covers your mistakes by babysitting your health bar in a traditional holy trinity model.

Turning every player into healers is not an improvement over removing healers.

Healers in the traditional MMO trinity model act as support in a group. But if you look deeper; what they’re actually doing is erasing the mistakes of their allies by filling up their health bars. The downed state is actually very similar. It allows every player to heal any player.

I think the developers will have a hard time making any content challenging. The game doesn’t punish bad play and encourage players to improve. Instead it creates an environment where making mistakes can be covered up by a friendly ally taking the time to help you get back up.

In a traditional trinity, dps don’t even get to take damage. The healers heal the tanks, not the dps. And the damage the tank takes is not a mistake, but rather a necessity. The problem with that model is that roles are so strict that there really isn’t much for the players to do than to fulfill those roles, and each person’s skill becomes how well he does in those roles (whether he heals in time, doesn’t overheal, holds aggro well, dps like a boss, etc).

As for the downed state, I think its not that the game doesn’t punish bad play/rewards bad play. Because, let’s face it. If you start the Kholer fight with bad play, downed state will be useless. The point of downed system is to ease players from bad play, to better play, to good play in a more forgiving way, such that at some point, you’ll clear the level with no one being downed at all. People improve at different paces, and downed state helps ease you to become better. There is no longer a need to get perfect play from the get-go, and that’s good because that sort of attitude is something that does not appeal to the casual crowd of GW2.

And one way the game can create challenging content is creating content wherein the downed state will be rendered useless because stopping to help get your teammate up will be more detrimental to the party in the long run(e.g. final boss in dredge fractal).

penatbater.4710:

And one way the game can create challenging content is creating content wherein the downed state will be rendered useless because stopping to help get your teammate up will be more detrimental to the party in the long run(e.g. final boss in dredge fractal).

That’s my main beef with this game design philosophy.

They go through the trouble of designing a mechanic that reward players for using it then turn around and punish them for using it when the going gets rough.

I can see why the general population would be confused or frustrated when something that’s supposed to work suddenly stops working.

Calae.1738:

penatbater.4710:

And one way the game can create challenging content is creating content wherein the downed state will be rendered useless because stopping to help get your teammate up will be more detrimental to the party in the long run(e.g. final boss in dredge fractal).

That’s my main beef with this game design philosophy.

They go through the trouble of designing a mechanic that reward players for using it then turn around and punish them for using it when the going gets rough.

I can see why the general population would be confused or frustrated when something that’s supposed to work suddenly stops working.

It’s a wonderful mechanic actually. It rewards you for trying to improve, but punishes you when you rely on it. :p

penatbater.4710:

Calae.1738:

penatbater.4710:

And one way the game can create challenging content is creating content wherein the downed state will be rendered useless because stopping to help get your teammate up will be more detrimental to the party in the long run(e.g. final boss in dredge fractal).

That’s my main beef with this game design philosophy.

They go through the trouble of designing a mechanic that reward players for using it then turn around and punish them for using it when the going gets rough.

I can see why the general population would be confused or frustrated when something that’s supposed to work suddenly stops working.

It’s a wonderful mechanic actually. It rewards you for trying to improve, but punishes you when you rely on it. :p

I don’t think it’ll reward players trying to improve. I think players will grow dependant on it and get frustrated when they can’t heal someone and when other people can’t heal them.

Downed is about as forgiving as healing in trinity games. As a support I take abilities that let me pick up downed players more easily, I cast protection/reflection/blind etc to buy time to get people up, I take traits for 10% faster res etc.

When a supportive player is in the group it makes it a lot smoother for people that make mistakes.

Yes healers cover mistakes, so does any supportive class. If everyone stops to res in gw2, the party usually dies to an aoe. Also many mobs HATE people ressing, and some even finish downed players.

The system is fine, just needs some tweaks to the numbers.

emikochan.8504:

Downed is about as forgiving as healing in trinity games. As a support I take abilities that let me pick up downed players more easily, I cast protection/reflection/blind etc to buy time to get people up, I take traits for 10% faster res etc.

When a supportive player is in the group it makes it a lot smoother for people that make mistakes.

Yes healers cover mistakes, so does any supportive class. If everyone stops to res in gw2, the party usually dies to an aoe. Also many mobs HATE people ressing, and some even finish downed players.

The system is fine, just needs some tweaks to the numbers.

You bring up an interesting point here.

If NPC’s turned around and knocked you down when trying to resurrect your fallen ally; that could work. The game would be letting the player know that resurrecting your ally is dangerous.

Or how about this.

An NPC puts a bubble around your fallen ally when you go in to resurrect them. The NPC would be using your ally as bait. You’re trapped inside the bubble and the NPC just shoots you like shooting at fish in a bucket.

Calae.1738:

emikochan.8504:

Downed is about as forgiving as healing in trinity games. As a support I take abilities that let me pick up downed players more easily, I cast protection/reflection/blind etc to buy time to get people up, I take traits for 10% faster res etc.

When a supportive player is in the group it makes it a lot smoother for people that make mistakes.

Yes healers cover mistakes, so does any supportive class. If everyone stops to res in gw2, the party usually dies to an aoe. Also many mobs HATE people ressing, and some even finish downed players.

The system is fine, just needs some tweaks to the numbers.

You bring up an interesting point here.

If NPC’s turned around and knocked you down when trying to resurrect your fallen ally; now could work. The game would be letting the player know that resurrecting your ally is dangerous.

Or how about this.

An NPC puts a bubble around your fallen ally when you go in to resurrect them. The NPC would be using your ally as bait. You’re trapped inside the bubble and the NPC just shoots you like shooting at fish in a bucket.

Then what would be the point of downed state? :|

penatbater.4710:

Calae.1738:

emikochan.8504:

Downed is about as forgiving as healing in trinity games. As a support I take abilities that let me pick up downed players more easily, I cast protection/reflection/blind etc to buy time to get people up, I take traits for 10% faster res etc.

When a supportive player is in the group it makes it a lot smoother for people that make mistakes.

Yes healers cover mistakes, so does any supportive class. If everyone stops to res in gw2, the party usually dies to an aoe. Also many mobs HATE people ressing, and some even finish downed players.

The system is fine, just needs some tweaks to the numbers.

You bring up an interesting point here.

If NPC’s turned around and knocked you down when trying to resurrect your fallen ally; now could work. The game would be letting the player know that resurrecting your ally is dangerous.

Or how about this.

An NPC puts a bubble around your fallen ally when you go in to resurrect them. The NPC would be using your ally as bait. You’re trapped inside the bubble and the NPC just shoots you like shooting at fish in a bucket.

Then what would be the point of downed state? :|

In a game that provides a dodge mechanic; it is my opinion that any and all attacks should be telegraphed to provide enough time for the player to dodge out of the way.

In other words you should see the bubble and the knockback coming; if you don’t dodge; you’re toast.

Newsflash: Not everybody want s to be punished when they are trying to have fun.

I hate to draw on such blatantly (I hope) false strawman arguments, but I really have to wonder about the truth behind the stereotypical MMO demographic sometimes. It seems very clear there’s a big divide to me.

I mean, call me jaded. But there’s something about coming home from a nine hour shift and spending the precious couple of hours you actually get to yourself on videogames, trying to relax, after grinding for gold all day EYE ARE ELL to pay the bills and keep the roof over your head… That makes this whole idea that death should be a “punishment”, and that MMOs are getting too “casual” seem… You know. What’s the word?

Bullkitten.

Meanwhile, I get a very strong impression that the other side of the coin is composed primarily of people who have, shall we say, not yet reached a point in life that they have to worry about such matters.

But then maybe I’m wrong. I love a challenge, don’t get me wrong, it’s just that some MMO gamers seem so utterly masochistic.

OP, can you please give a couple examples of MMOs that provide the combat mechanics that you prefer?

Calae.1738:

I don’t think challenging content can co-exist with the downed state and rally mechanic.

- snip -

What I’m getting at here is that I’m purposefully playing bad by abusing the rally system. Unless of coarse this is intended design which would be quite funny to hear a developer admit.

Is that abusing the mechanic, or using the mechanic as intended? What about the tendrils in the Subject Alpha fights? If they were not put in to provide a means to rally, why were they put in?

If you’re downed 4+ times, is it because it’s easier to get downed and rally than to stay up? Is the encounter doable without going down? It sounds like you think it is but you are “allowing” yourself to be downed (“purposely playing badly”), but how am I to know? Also, what degree of skill would it take to play that existing fight without the downed state? Are we talking 50% of the player-base, 10%, 1%? Also, at what fractal level.

Raine.1394:

I agree that MMO’s are not about crushing challenge in the open world. But, Anet has explicitly stated that they were addressing challenge with the grenth temple fight and, I assume, with the buffs to the krait and undead in various DE’s.

- snip -

Bottom line, I think they are still trying to figure out combat. And, that’s why threads like this are helpful.

I think both Raine and Calae are pointing to something here. There are times when the combat system (which includes the downed state) does seem confused. It seems as if some encounter mechanics are designed to suddenly down players, with the downed state existing to mitigate the frustration. This is especially evident in dungeons when downed players with no “escape” mechanic are in punishing AoE.

Sometimes, once you get past the frustration and look for what downed you, you can see a tell. Sometimes, especially when the mob is shrouded with the amazing technicolor dreamcoat of particle effects, tells are very hard to see. For instance, I’ve yet to actually see what the Legendary Risen Whatever at the end of the Arah chain actually looks like other than a vague outline.

As to the open world, well, the new risen are more challenging, but the Krait Hypnos is a lot more so. It’s going to take time for players to recognize it’s tell, especially if large groups of krait spawn. The combination of the Slaver’s immobilize and the Hypnos’ AoE of poison nastiness is going to down people, and other players are not going to risk death to revive them. I was in a United Arcanist Lab DE yesterday that failed, which is the first time I’ve seen that happen.

Even so, I can fight the krait, and I’m hardly a top tier player. So, maybe the devs are aiming for some content that is aimed at average to above average skill. I expect that all the complaints about the “old” Risen had to rankle. Remember when people were saying, “The Risen are not hard, they are annoying.”?

Back on point, I don’t know if content that will be challenging to the top tier of players is possible without the downed state. I do suspect that it is not possible without making it difficult to rally or revive, and that is going to create frustration along the lines of, "Why put in the downed state if it is “impossible” to revive?"

Calae.1738:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Calae.1738:

I think the (GW2) developers will have a hard time making any content challenging. The game doesn’t punish bad play and encourage players to improve. Instead it creates an environment where making mistakes can be covered up by a friendly ally taking the time to help you get back up.

GW2 doesn’t punish bad play? Why does mob AoE always seem to center on the downed player? Why does every third thread in the dungeon forums seem to be about dungeons being “too hard?” Why is the response to these threads almost always “You just need to learn how to dodge, use skills, position, etc.?” In other words, “improve?”

Calae.1738:

When they enter content that prevents them from healing their downed allies (assuming this content exists) wouldn’t this cause confusion and make them think that the content is broken or too hard?

Since that is what is occurring, yes.

You’ve made the point in other threads that you do not find GW2 challenging. This thread seems like just another means to deliver your request for content that requires your level of dedication and twitch reflexes. My suggestion would be to ask for hard mode dungeons. While you’re at it, also support “easier mode” dungeons to keep the “too hard” crowd out of the theoretical harder content.

Open world content? MMO open world difficulty is always going to be tuned to the middle to low end of average play, not top tier skill. It does not hurt to ask, but don’t hold your breath.

I don’t think challenging content can co-exist with the downed state and rally mechanic.

Take the Grawl Shaman as an example. In my opinion; It’s one of the most fun encounters in the game and there are many complaints that it’s too hard. However there are elements to this fight that makes it feel weird. If the group AoEs all the elementals while putting up projectile deflection walls; their odds of rallying off one dead elemental is quite high. I have gone down and rallied at least 4 consecutive times in this encounter.

What I’m getting at here is that I’m purposefully playing bad by abusing the rally system. Unless of coarse this is intended design which would be quite funny to hear a developer admit.

that is good play and tactics, and it probably is intentional. the boss can one shot people with agony mechanics. except agony is a slow death, it give you time if you are good and dont panic to position yourself take actions to prepare, etc.
for example as a mesmer you may throw down a null field right before you go down.

there are also examples in the game of tough to revive fights, like subject alpha. but it isnt impossible to revive, if your team members are slick, and you save your skills for the right time, you may be able to ressurect.

You start off already believing that rally mechanics make things too easy then you look for justification, but it simply isnt true. Using the tools you have at your disposal is skill. Someone who is better at treating thier wounds doesnt have to be as good at avoiding injury. This makes the skill broader.

Your idea of a good test of skill is a 1 hit type, fail or succeed. But one that requires more trials and allows you to come back from failures is actually a deeper and more complex system, and usually a better test of skill.

you have already decided the best test of skill is who can do the most damage and take the least, but that is only testing one skill set. How good is your teams communication when the pressure is on. How well can you coordinate to save a fallen comrade. How do you react when you know that what you do over the next 30 seconds will decide whether your out the fight for 10 seconds or for 3 minutes. What is your contingency plan when things go awry.

now, in some encounters, revives or rallying may be easy, but this isnt due to the system itself, this is do to how they design the encounters, and you can be sure that they probably actively make rally/revival easy in some encounters.

Do you think rallying off flowers in twilight arbor or claws in subject alpha is a mistake? i highly doubt it.

Calae.1738:

penatbater.4710:

Calae.1738:

emikochan.8504:

Downed is about as forgiving as healing in trinity games. As a support I take abilities that let me pick up downed players more easily, I cast protection/reflection/blind etc to buy time to get people up, I take traits for 10% faster res etc.

When a supportive player is in the group it makes it a lot smoother for people that make mistakes.

Yes healers cover mistakes, so does any supportive class. If everyone stops to res in gw2, the party usually dies to an aoe. Also many mobs HATE people ressing, and some even finish downed players.

The system is fine, just needs some tweaks to the numbers.

You bring up an interesting point here.

If NPC’s turned around and knocked you down when trying to resurrect your fallen ally; now could work. The game would be letting the player know that resurrecting your ally is dangerous.

Or how about this.

An NPC puts a bubble around your fallen ally when you go in to resurrect them. The NPC would be using your ally as bait. You’re trapped inside the bubble and the NPC just shoots you like shooting at fish in a bucket.

Then what would be the point of downed state? :|

In a game that provides a dodge mechanic; it is my opinion that any and all attacks should be telegraphed to provide enough time for the player to dodge out of the way.

In other words you should see the bubble and the knockback coming; if you don’t dodge; you’re toast.

dodge is a method of avoiding damage, but you arent given enough endurance to dodge everything. There is also skill in surviving and coming back against unfavorable odds.

You seem like you are more like the guy to start a game over when it starts going bad, for you thats a loss, but there is a whole nother skill set that says, ok im dealing with a bad situation, how do i adapt, and can i come back.

It was never meant to be a game of getting a perfect, the goal is to succeed, even through adversity.

Calae.1738:

I think the developers will have a hard time making any content challenging. The game doesn’t punish bad play and encourage players to improve. Instead it creates an environment where making mistakes can be covered up by a friendly ally taking the time to help you get back up.

Actually this game makes mistakes more likely than in other games, so it has the downed system to allow for more forgiveness. Downs are a lot more common in this game than deaths in other games, and I don’t know about you but most people don’t enjoy being on their backs so it actually does encourage them to play better and stay on their feet. It’s less of a punishing and more of a nurturing method to be sure.

Anytime that Anet feels the game isn’t challenging enough due to revives, all they’d have to do is nerf it.

I treat downed more as “wounded”

It’s like a condition that you need another player to cure that replaces all your skills with 3 weaker ones.

If you think of it as “when someone gets under a certain amount of life, they become wounded and need help to get back to combat effectiveness” it makes more sense.

Think about other games where your hp effects your effectiveness. Tbh i think there would be less complaints if you became downed at 25% hp and dead at 0%. It seems there’s a perception issue with going to “0” and then getting another life bar, when infact it’s just another part of the same lifebar that you can only heal with help (just like a healer would in trinity games with the whole lifebar) :p

The fact of the matter is that the system supports complex and challenging fights, they just aren’t common enough. Every dungeon path should have a difficult fight, more multiphase stuff.

It’s fun that subject alpha is mentioned, I always switch out Armour of Earth for Arcane Shield so I can res on that fight guaranteed (usually stability guarantees a res, but the damage is too high there so blocking is required :p)

Calae.1738:

penatbater.4710:

Calae.1738:

penatbater.4710:

And one way the game can create challenging content is creating content wherein the downed state will be rendered useless because stopping to help get your teammate up will be more detrimental to the party in the long run(e.g. final boss in dredge fractal).

That’s my main beef with this game design philosophy.

They go through the trouble of designing a mechanic that reward players for using it then turn around and punish them for using it when the going gets rough.

I can see why the general population would be confused or frustrated when something that’s supposed to work suddenly stops working.

It’s a wonderful mechanic actually. It rewards you for trying to improve, but punishes you when you rely on it. :p

I don’t think it’ll reward players trying to improve. I think players will grow dependant on it and get frustrated when they can’t heal someone and when other people can’t heal them.

That’s when the entire forum population gets to say “L2P” :p

penatbater.4710:

Calae.1738:

penatbater.4710:

Calae.1738:

penatbater.4710:

And one way the game can create challenging content is creating content wherein the downed state will be rendered useless because stopping to help get your teammate up will be more detrimental to the party in the long run(e.g. final boss in dredge fractal).

That’s my main beef with this game design philosophy.

They go through the trouble of designing a mechanic that reward players for using it then turn around and punish them for using it when the going gets rough.

I can see why the general population would be confused or frustrated when something that’s supposed to work suddenly stops working.

It’s a wonderful mechanic actually. It rewards you for trying to improve, but punishes you when you rely on it. :p

I don’t think it’ll reward players trying to improve. I think players will grow dependant on it and get frustrated when they can’t heal someone and when other people can’t heal them.

That’s when the entire forum population gets to say “L2P” :p

I think the artifical cap on encounter difficulty (yes the game could be more fun and challenging for the MMORPG old hats/pros) is a result of the lack of healers coupled with an influx of players who are not good “twitch” players…

The result is you have a great set of mechanics that are almost completely ignored in encounters, Agony (’cause its pro lol), and ever ramping health pools. The scaling you see out there in multi-player encounters is dragged down by the need to make the personal story easy enough for a naked character, two levels below recommended, driven by a muppet, to complete most of it – or else said muppet will be over in that forum drumming up an army of their ilk behind the banner of “Its broken!”.

Zerg vs. Zerg gotcha down? Throw in a good healer or two and PvP zergs become tactical again (and are still meat grinders though mwhahahahaha), and bunker builds suddenly require support resolving that imbalance.

However some players out there hated waiting for the healer/tank to come along and never thought to try either role… so yes – the lack of Healers as a serious focus (not tanks to the same degree) has flattened the gameplay down half a dimension. I have hope though – Anet could “flick the role on” at any stage… I think they may have to.

(Yes I’ve over simplified… can you blame me – its the internet).

Calae, I can’t help but disagree with you. Every player has the choice to build their characters however they want. They can be tanky at the cost of less damage, and vise versa. The “support” role exists beyond standing in the back healing, you can support by taking hits for squishies, leading the charge, condition removal, ect.

I hate the Trinity, playing Guild Wars 2 has been the best breath of fresh MMO air I’ve had in a long time. Yes if someone screws up a teammate can pick them up, but in a close encounter you won’t be carried by your allies.

Every player needs to be able to take care of themselves before worrying about “supporting the group.” The best defense is a well-timed dodge, not healing power, healing power covers up for the lack of dodging skill.

thisolderhead.5127:

penatbater.4710:

Calae.1738:

penatbater.4710:

Calae.1738:

penatbater.4710:

And one way the game can create challenging content is creating content wherein the downed state will be rendered useless because stopping to help get your teammate up will be more detrimental to the party in the long run(e.g. final boss in dredge fractal).

That’s my main beef with this game design philosophy.

They go through the trouble of designing a mechanic that reward players for using it then turn around and punish them for using it when the going gets rough.

I can see why the general population would be confused or frustrated when something that’s supposed to work suddenly stops working.

It’s a wonderful mechanic actually. It rewards you for trying to improve, but punishes you when you rely on it. :p

I don’t think it’ll reward players trying to improve. I think players will grow dependant on it and get frustrated when they can’t heal someone and when other people can’t heal them.

That’s when the entire forum population gets to say “L2P” :p

I think the artifical cap on encounter difficulty (yes the game could be more fun and challenging for the MMORPG old hats/pros) is a result of the lack of healers coupled with an influx of players who are not good “twitch” players…

The result is you have a great set of mechanics that are almost completely ignored in encounters, Agony (’cause its pro lol), and ever ramping health pools. The scaling you see out there in multi-player encounters is dragged down by the need to make the personal story easy enough for a naked character, two levels below recommended, driven by a muppet, to complete most of it – or else said muppet will be over in that forum drumming up an army of their ilk behind the banner of “Its broken!”.

Zerg vs. Zerg gotcha down? Throw in a good healer or two and PvP zergs become tactical again (and are still meat grinders though mwhahahahaha), and bunker builds suddenly require support resolving that imbalance.

However some players out there hated waiting for the healer/tank to come along and never thought to try either role… so yes – the lack of Healers as a serious focus (not tanks to the same degree) has flattened the gameplay down half a dimension. I have hope though – Anet could “flick the role on” at any stage… I think they may have to.

(Yes I’ve over simplified… can you blame me – its the internet).

You ignore that healers DO exist in GW2. You won’t bring someone from 10% to full in 5 seconds flat but why would you need to. “Healers” are only one form of group support. If you time your dodge well/control your boons/simply understand your surroundings you won’t need to be carried with a “healer.”

My Elementalist is in exotic and ascended Cleric gear, I have 1600 healing power with my full build, people heal for 160 per second just being within 1200 range of me. Despite that I still pull out my lightning hammer and do damage more damage than the same people wanting a “healer” to carry them, I build like that to allow my teammates to build more aggressively. Healing is useless if the party is at full health, even when you stack healing power you need to fight.

Ah Zaviel I’m a lightning hammer ele supporter too, it’s a pretty awesome support weapon

I think people don’t realise how much easier life is when you have lots of small heals. They only care for big crits.

Maybe anet should let heals crit in pve lol.

Zaviel.1245

You ignore that healers DO exist in GW2. You won’t bring someone from 10% to full in 5 seconds flat but why would you need to. “Healers” are only one form of group support. If you time your dodge well/control your boons/simply understand your surroundings you won’t need to be carried with a “healer.”

My Elementalist is in exotic and ascended Cleric gear, I have 1600 healing power with my full build, people heal for 160 per second just being within 1200 range of me. Despite that I still pull out my lightning hammer and do damage more damage than the same people wanting a “healer” to carry them, I build like that to allow my teammates to build more aggressively. Healing is useless if the party is at full health, even when you stack healing power you need to fight.

I can see my over simplification is a problem, I removed the word “Dedicated” because I didn’t want to paint a Healer as standing around doing nothing when the health bars were full, and broke common sense apparently…

Put the cleric-measuring-stick away, in this exchange you’re second best at it already (tho nice numbers, good start) and are not interesting in being closer to a dedicated healer anyway. Either you can’t comment on what I actually said or you are sick of being asked to heal people and can’t just man-up and tell them to get off… well given that is about all you said there…

Calae.1738:

codpin.6542:

Calae.1738:

Healers in the traditional MMO trinity model act as support in a group. But if you look deeper; what they’re actually doing is erasing the mistakes of their allies by filling up their health bars. The downed state is actually very similar. It allows every player to heal any player.

Wrong. In a traditional mmo, you rarely have the ability to evade the damage as a dps class, because most mobs and bosses have some sort of attacks that do aoe dmg and is way better to take the hit and continue your dps. Also, healers are there mostly for the tank, because he needs to take the hits for the entire party.

On the other hand, in gw2, you can evade and mitigate almost anything is thrown at you.

Hope you see the difference and why there is no need of active and dedicated healers.

You misunderstood my post.

Developers in traditional MMOs have to account for healers and create content that has unavoidable damage. If all damage was avoidable; healers would be unnecessary.

In GW2 you can avoid damage.

Enter the downed state. When a giant monster smacks you in the face and puts you down; I can run up to you and heal you. But get this; my healing is uninterruptable by damage and the rate of healing is usually greater than the incoming damage. This mechanic turns everyone into healers.

You are incorrect on this assumption. See, you can be interrupted by stun, knockback, or whatever else than an enemy -NPC or player- can throw your way when trying to get another player up from the downed state. Another thing to note is that your heal rate when getting them up from downstate or finished state is 50% reduced once you’ve taken damage and have entered combat yourself. This is in there because the developers foreseen your negatives about this being a “nanny mechanic” and try to mitigate the rush to get players back in.

P.S. Arguing against he down state is soooo 9 months ago. That was argued to death prior to the game’s launch, and was buried in shame. Please, kill this topic, it’s never going to change.

Siphaed.9235:

Calae.1738:

codpin.6542:

Calae.1738:

Healers in the traditional MMO trinity model act as support in a group. But if you look deeper; what they’re actually doing is erasing the mistakes of their allies by filling up their health bars. The downed state is actually very similar. It allows every player to heal any player.

Wrong. In a traditional mmo, you rarely have the ability to evade the damage as a dps class, because most mobs and bosses have some sort of attacks that do aoe dmg and is way better to take the hit and continue your dps. Also, healers are there mostly for the tank, because he needs to take the hits for the entire party.

On the other hand, in gw2, you can evade and mitigate almost anything is thrown at you.

Hope you see the difference and why there is no need of active and dedicated healers.

You misunderstood my post.

Developers in traditional MMOs have to account for healers and create content that has unavoidable damage. If all damage was avoidable; healers would be unnecessary.

In GW2 you can avoid damage.

Enter the downed state. When a giant monster smacks you in the face and puts you down; I can run up to you and heal you. But get this; my healing is uninterruptable by damage and the rate of healing is usually greater than the incoming damage. This mechanic turns everyone into healers.

You are incorrect on this assumption. See, you can be interrupted by stun, knockback, or whatever else than an enemy -NPC or player- can throw your way when trying to get another player up from the downed state. Another thing to note is that your heal rate when getting them up from downstate or finished state is 50% reduced once you’ve taken damage and have entered combat yourself. This is in there because the developers foreseen your negatives about this being a “nanny mechanic” and try to mitigate the rush to get players back in.

P.S. Arguing against he down state is soooo 9 months ago. That was argued to death prior to the game’s launch, and was buried in shame. Please, kill this topic, it’s never going to change.

I know people like the downed state. I probably can’t convince them otherwise but I don’t really need to. No other game that takes PVP seriously will implement this mechanic. The reasons should be quite obvious but, apparently for some people it isn’t.

You’re right. We should kill this topic since it’s quite sensitive for some people.

Calae.1738

No other game that takes PVP seriously will implement this mechanic. The reasons should be quite obvious but, apparently for some people it isn’t.

We agree that there is quite obvious stuff being missed, but some concealed too. Skip ahead a little bit – to the time where the game has matured for PVP and bear with me…

Arena type PVP in particular has always has a flaw in that there is generally a lot of fiddles requried to prevent OP abilities to limit zerging heals/control/key mechanic characters, preventing cascading win/fails on a team, etc – the “serious PVP” guys know the list.

Downed state actually requires you “gain the advantage” (like tennis) and maintain it rather than face roll a team on the back-foot after you “zerg teir helz yeh”… it will provide depth.

Downed is fine in pvp, It’s just another part of their healthbar you have to get through where they have lesser mobility and abilities.

thisolderhead.5127:

Calae.1738

No other game that takes PVP seriously will implement this mechanic. The reasons should be quite obvious but, apparently for some people it isn’t.

We agree that there is quite obvious stuff being missed, but some concealed too. Skip ahead a little bit – to the time where the game has matured for PVP and bear with me…

Arena type PVP in particular has always has a flaw in that there is generally a lot of fiddles requried to prevent OP abilities to limit zerging heals/control/key mechanic characters, preventing cascading win/fails on a team, etc – the “serious PVP” guys know the list.

Downed state actually requires you “gain the advantage” (like tennis) and maintain it rather than face roll a team on the back-foot after you “zerg teir helz yeh”… it will provide depth.

I quit WoW arena because I hated healing mechanics. Not healers; just healing mechanics. GW2 turns every player into healers.

I’m not against support roles in general; I believe that skill should be based on a players ability to deal damage, avoid damage and help his teammates avoid damage (assuming there are no other objectives).

Patching up someone’s mistakes by running up to them and rubbing them while they’re downed or playing whack a mole with 2D boxes is a quality of life issue for me.

No one should have the ability to erase someone’s mistakes. Preventing mistakes is fine but patching them up is not.

I’m guessing you haven’t played dungeons and FotM that many to not consider getting downed a punishment.

It’s a punishment for a couple of things in dungeons/FotM:

- You are not contributing damage while being downed
- Teammates who tries to revive you won’t also contribute on the damage
- You are risking your teammates trying to revive you their lives for being open and impossible to defend themselves in an instant against CCs and debuffs
- In a situation where there are a lot of mobs in a small area, the more downed teammates the more the others will be susceptible to get attacked by the rest of them.

Of course all that above varies a lot from PUGs.

Most of the dungeons are designed for 5 player team. Getting downed makes it harder for the rest to complete the events. The current design makes it possible for a group of 4 rangers, 4 necros, or 4 thieves to finish the content. The only thing that differs about them is how much effort they need to do to be on the same level with others.

If you want to increase the challenge, try doing dungeons/FotM with 4 players or less.

If you can’t stop someone ressing someone from downed in pvp your team has been outplayed by the enemy team.

There are so many ways to spike someone successfully… And ressing is a risk in itself, you can’t dodge, you can only use instants, and you can be interupted, so all the damage you took was for nothing.

Picking someone up off the ground IS helping them avoid damage, what’s the difference between using a skill to do it and pressing F to do it?
For example my engineer has overcharged shot, it stuns me to knockback an enemy. or I could press f which disables me to give health to a downed ally. It’s just one more ability in your arsenal.

Calae.1738:

Developers in traditional MMOs have to account for healers and create content that has unavoidable damage. If all damage was avoidable; healers would be unnecessary.

In GW2 you can avoid damage.

I partially disagree. You can avoid damage but for how long? You have limited amount of dodge and stability at a given time. Challenge is how you will maintain those within 5-10 mins mini-boss fight who does a lot of debuffs and CCs (knockbacks) add up those mobs to make sure to deplete your dodges/stabilities. And surely, you haven’t met a normal mob that downs you in 1 or 2 hits no matter how large your HP pool is.

For me, downed state is there to counter the cheap attacks you’ll get in dungeons and FotM.

emikochan.8504:

Picking someone up off the ground IS helping them avoid damage, what’s the difference between using a skill to do it and pressing F to do it?
For example my engineer has overcharged shot, it stuns me to knockback an enemy. or I could press f which disables me to give health to a downed ally. It’s just one more ability in your arsenal.

1) Fireball hits your ally and downs them; you run up to your alley and rub him.

2) Fireball hits your ally; you click on their GUI portrait; cast a spell and watch his health bar move right.

3) Fireball is about to hit your ally; you cast a bubble around him to block it.

4) Fireball is about to hit your ally; you teleport in front of him and take the hit.

1 and 2 doesn’t make sense to me. I could insult 2 all day but 1 is interesting too. What is rubbing anyway? What does this rubbing consist of? How does the rubbing work? Is it a bandage? Is it some magic lotion?

It’s not only that I dislike systems that patch up other people mistakes but; its also systems that don’t make any sense at all. Especially in an MMO where the designers are trying to create an immersive world.

I think it is quite true in some ways there is a considerable less of a penalty for mistakes with the downed-state mechanic. And therefore getting people up/healing etc could be considered covering up people’s mistakes, when looked from a certain point.

But to be against that kind of thing, that to me seems more to gratify twitch gamers and really I’m not good at it so I’m always happy when a game is not dependent on twitch, and even more so if twitch players can be countered in some ways by non twitch ppl like myself. However to not veer off the topic so much, I have query: Why must it always be about harsh punishment in games?