Guild Wars 2

Intro:
This post has to do with the deceptive evasion trait in the dueling line of the mesmer on the one hand, and the cry for some awareness of other builds in pve which are destroyed in a futile attempt to nerf the used builds in pvp.
I understand partially why this is being nerfed, and for the major part I do not understand why this decision has been made in this partiular fashion….

What does the trait Deceptive Evasion do:
It creates a new clone (so a copy of the player) in the game. Clones do NOT deal damage, and are used to shatter or deal conditions (via traits or directly via the #1 skill which is the ONLY skill they can use)
A player cannot own more then 3 illusions (phantasms or clones) and making a 4th destroys the oldest illusion but with a priority of clones over phantasms.

How is Deceptive Evasion being changed:
The dodge will no longer crate a clone when there are already 3 illusions. No longer allowing players destroying the 4th. Even though mesmer has 3 traits benefitting from this.

Why is Deceptive Evasion being changed?
It is not to contain the shatter builds as you would normally shatter as soon as you have 3 clones. The Devs said people could spam too many clones, which is strange as clone production is capped at 3…
But not creating a 4th clone does nerf mesmer condi builds in a huge way, leaving thoughts in my head this is mostly PvP related, so why does this need to be changed again for the worse in PvE?

Shattering is used to:
- F1 To create additional spike damage, adding to the DPS
- F2 To add a few stacks of confusion (which was nerfed in duration before, destroying a large part of confusion builds and therefore a large part of the condition damage done by mesmer which was neccesary due to players in pvp yelling murder because people couldn’t understand that gaining damage on skill activation could be avoided by either not using a skill, sending it back, cleaning it or consuming it, In the end completely removing its effectiveness in PVE completely due to the slow activation of skills by bosses (if you get a stack of 3-4 confusion for 4 seconds it would be nice if it triggered 2 or 3 times, instead of hoping it would trigger at all….and in the end doing no damage in a significant portion of the fights. Also DPS-players kill any or all targets so fast it will not have the time to trigger. ) Confusion was the main damage for condimemsers.
- F3 To daze (to interupt which should be a viable system BUT it doesn’t function accurately due to persistent annoying server lag in newer content, also denying interupt builds their sought after interrupt, also PvE bosses are so slowly attacking that timing this is nearly impossible) which could have been a nice system for hybrid mesmers but it fails. Maybe not in alpha tests, but it doesn’t work in the pve environment. It will probably be very effective in pvp though
- F4 To gain a few moments of evade (blurring) which is a mesmer evade like the dodge. which doesn’t do damage and only gives an additional invunerability for a couple of seconds…

I am having fun with a staff mesmer in pve. Not because it’s overly powerfull. It relies on the conditions which are done by clones when they die (resulting in small stacks of bleed, vunerability, confusion, cripple… (traits domination V (10pts) (cripple), Dueling grandmaster minor (25 points) confusion), chaos V (10points) bleeding, vulnerability or weakness, with some chaos storm support and cry of frustration….
This has a huge synergy with staff buffs (chaos line, Illusions line)

In the End:
Now we cannot make more clones anymore so they die (fast to stack conditions), and we now need the enemy to target the clones,which the AI will not do . On shatter these clone deaths are NOT processed for conditions, so bye bye clone-death related builds…

DPS in Guild Wars is not the problem. But the utterly hopeless condition DOT is ignored, not viable, while it stays unplayable with more conditionbuild-player(s) in any sort of group, but it does relate to 50-60% of the content in the game. It is frowned upon, not because it’s bad but because the condition implementation in the game itself has become the biggest problem in this game IMHO, denying us so much options…

Not to barge in and be an kitten , but clones do deal damage. The main source of that damage are the staff clones and when you have 3 up it is a hell of a lot of conditions being put up on you. I won’t bring the other clones into this because the melee damage they do is minimal but when it comes to the staff clones they aren’t dps which is a set amount of damage, they are a lot of conditions.

Mesmers are already powerful with their clone spam as it is.

This fix was well over due.

This isn’t a nerf, this is a fix. Deceptive Evasion is useless when you run a phantasm build. Whenever you have 3 phantasms up and you have this trait, you would be unable to dodge. Because it would destroy your powerful phantasm and destroy your damage output in the process.

I don’t want to burst your bubble, but with the current meta the phantasm DPS build is far superior to the condition build. Mesmer condition is really bad in PvE.

I for one am happy with this change.

Charming Rogue.8071:

This isn’t a nerf, this is a fix. Deceptive Evasion is useless when you run a phantasm build. Whenever you have 3 phantasms up and you have this trait, you would be unable to dodge. Because it would destroy your powerful phantasm and destroy your damage output in the process.

Have you ever considered that a simple fix that it wouldn’t override phantasms would have also fixed this? Heck, if they did that and did the same for the scepter, it would solve several problems.

I’m going to add to the discussion. I play a PU mesmer, but not with condis, but direct damage through greatsword and sword/torch or sword/focus. I hear a lot of chat that PU mesmer is OP, but in reality it’s the condition mesmer with PU, no other builds.

By nerfing the trait so you don’t get more clones if you already have 3, they made the trait useless really, but what they should have done is nerf not this trait, but another, chaos V I think, the one that gives conditions to enemies when your clones die (and by spamming them stack conditions).

Wow… useless you say?

I’m not convinced people even know what the word actually means anymore .

Wolvenheart.9681:

Charming Rogue.8071:

This isn’t a nerf, this is a fix. Deceptive Evasion is useless when you run a phantasm build. Whenever you have 3 phantasms up and you have this trait, you would be unable to dodge. Because it would destroy your powerful phantasm and destroy your damage output in the process.

Have you ever considered that a simple fix that it wouldn’t override phantasms would have also fixed this? Heck, if they did that and did the same for the scepter, it would solve several problems.

It already does that. Clones do not ever override phantasms. They only override other clones.

First of all: these conditions on clone death are all AoE in a 240 range, but
Do you people know how long these conditions last?

Domination, 10 trait points: V Crippling Dissipation:
Clones cripple nearby foes when they are killed. Crippled: 3s

Chaos,10 trait points: V Debilitating Dissipation
Clones apply a random condition to nearby foes when they are killed. 3 stacks of bleeding (5s), OR 3 stacks of vunerability (5s) OR weakness (3s)

Dueling, 25 points minor: Confusing Combatants
Your illusions cause confusion to foes around them when they are killed. 1 stack confusion: Confusion: 3s (130 damage on skill use)

That’s 45 points for these 3 traits…

Even with 65% condition duration ONLY the vulnerability and the bleeds will stack a little. Because with full vigor uptime you will not be able to dodge more often than 5 seconds, AND as vigor is nerfed as well this is no longer achievable so…

Just for the record if you go extreme and do 2 dodges, then cast mirror images, decoy , staff skill 4 you will get 6 clones in a few seconds, 3 of those will die and create conditons instant…
and you will be left with
- no endurance
- 2 used utility skills (base 40 and 45 secs recharge)
- 3 stacks of confusion, 3 times a stack of either 3 bleeding, or 3 vunerability or weakness) and cripple for 9secs which will all be over in 6 seconds. of course the spam with the straff wil remain, but it will anyways as this is not nerfed.

The mesmer was always portaited as a caster who could achieve control through means of frustrating and confusing other players, using skills that would deny enemy players skills by applying dmg on skill use. This was nerfed ages ago, because the players couldn’t deal with the confusion and frustration the mesmer provided…

So the mesmer became a second or even tertiary elementalist, like necromancer. all mainly focussed on DPS as it’s not allowed to play conditions in PVE, due to program related server issues, which after 500+ days of playing still not have been changed.

And yes conditions (DOT) is very powerfull. It should be:

Conditions are available so people can use control (which is difficult in PvE due to Defiant, just imagine defiant being put on all pvp players…), to buff DPS, deminish enemy dps, and deny actions (either moving or using skills)…

But nerf after nerf conditions are becoming so weak they could be ignored all the same and then the question arises: why should we play them. For control? If you can kill legendary(!) bosses in under 10 seconds using DPS then why would DOT matter in the first place? Maybe it’s just wiser to remove all conditions, and controls and related gear altogether if (almost) noone expects them to be of influence, or just plainly ignores them.

Azure Prower.8701:

Mesmers are already powerful with their clone spam as it is.

This fix was well over due.

Clone spam? For shatters or for conditions? Clones do not do damage, but can inflicty conditions… Yes you can shatter them, but this nerf doesn’t change shatter builds.

Charming Rogue.8071:

This isn’t a nerf, this is a fix. Deceptive Evasion is useless when you run a phantasm build. Whenever you have 3 phantasms up and you have this trait, you would be unable to dodge. Because it would destroy your powerful phantasm and destroy your damage output in the process.

I don’t want to burst your bubble, but with the current meta the phantasm DPS build is far superior to the condition build. Mesmer condition is really bad in PvE.

I for one am happy with this change.

Why would you take deceptive evasion if you dop not want clones in the first place?, Not taking it as a trait would solve your issue?

Also clones will only overwrite phantasms if there are 3… When there are 2 and 1 clone only the clone is overwritten until another phantasm dies, the you will have 2 clones. I do not know if phantasms always overwrite clones, but I do not use phantasms regularly anyways.

Sirendor.1394:

I’m going to add to the discussion. I play a PU mesmer, but not with condis, but direct damage through greatsword and sword/torch or sword/focus. I hear a lot of chat that PU mesmer is OP, but in reality it’s the condition mesmer with PU, no other builds.

By nerfing the trait so you don’t get more clones if you already have 3, they made the trait useless really, but what they should have done is nerf not this trait, but another, chaos V I think, the one that gives conditions to enemies when your clones die (and by spamming them stack conditions).

If you do not use this trait then choose another one, Its an adept trait and 3 stacks of bleeding will not be overly powerfull for most power builds… But wait, vulnerability is usefull, and weakness as well…
so it might be more usefull to remove the vunerability and bleeding replacing it with 2 stacks of torment for example… It will give an other damaging condition, but it will lessen the wish for powermesmers to take the trait. and it will remove pressure on the bleeding cap. If people want a lot of bleeding sigil of earth does quite nice anyways.

It would also fit into the denial type of build mesmer used to be….

getting Anet’s sympathy isnt worth it, I am paking my mesmer at a JP & will be playing what dev’s play to have peace of mind on future nerfs.

Good luck getting this change to happen, Engineers have yet to recover from all three of the grenade nerfs, the global condi nerf from the early days, and the kit refinement destruction that took place months ago.

When these things take place they pretty much destroy all confidence in the balance team I agree.

PVP balance should never affect PVE imo.

PvP is quite different from PvE in lot’s of aspects

- The amount of players at any given time in a PvP map or aPvE map are quite different.
- The amount and frequency of attacks your enemies do are different, This will impede certain conditions (read confusion on slow casting bosses, or torment on all static bosses)
- The amount of presure (players following you is different then having the AI folow you)
- The effects over time are different as the AI doesn’t focus his capabilities to do maximum dmg.
- The AI will never complain about recieved conditions OR damage.

PvP should be cared for a if it would be a different game in the game.
PvE is not bound by such needs and should be fun to play. People want choice and freedom.
Having each problem in PvP causing consequences directly in PvE is unneccesary and frustrates a lot of players who devised good builds in PvE which cost them a lot of investment, both in time and gold.

This nerf is balls…

Huge nerf to my shatter build and every other Mesmer build, but ironically buffs the lazy faceroll GS/GS phantasm builds you see all the bad Memsers playing >:(

Seriously Anet?

Seriously. Your build scared them and now it will no longer be able to dodge-spam the extra explodey clone. Gonna have to shred them to cash out instead of one popping on its own each roll.

And with the reduction in Vigor up time there will be fewer dodges powering it too.

But for shatter builds the effects are negliable…

I posted so before…. You only miss 1 clone when they are running, so it will take you 1 sec more to spam them…. Who cares?

I was talking about my staff condition build, it requires the clones to die through combat – not through shatters or the end of combat… – or by being replaced. The AI doesn’t target clones… SO I cannot use my traits anymore unless I & all of my clones run into aoe fields… I guess that will make my character expend somewhat more on repairs from then on..

I hope devs you read this thread,

And next time in the stream show me how you fight lupi with 5 staff based rabid mesmers and defeat him. The amounts of condition would be stackable if I’m right… even though only barely.

Pve is doable with all gear sets and builds, I read it on the site, those are your own words…

Could anyone having an opinion (one way or another) relating specifically to the perception that the ‘clone death’ builds & traits are too powerful please post your thoughts & findings here:

PvX MESMER Are clone death traits OP?

Since this was the reason given for the Deceptive Evasion nerf I think it’s important to really look into whether this is true or not, especially when proposing alternative solutions like nerfing those specific traits or builds in order to save others.

having had run both the GS phantasm build and the staff condi build….

firstly – GS phantasm build – yes i never had the clone on dodge traited for the simple fact that on dodge i could lose my dmg dealers.

Staff builds will effectively disappear for the mesmers if this goes ahead – already i am able to withstand 1v1 – 1v3 fights, however each instance is very difficult to down a person without additional help or the player messing up their combat. most of my fights last anywhere from 3 – 8 mins.

with this now – looks like i am going back to GS phantasm build – can i get back my 150k karma i spent then! having to constantly destroy the clones now via F1 – 4 for the sake of stacking condi’s pretty much renders the staff build alot slower than what it already is (unless i clone dodge and stand next to my clone)..

yea this is going to be a tough one to swallow..

mesmer is already among the least played classes.

congratulation ANET, you have just kill a class…..

now, everyone should roll a warrior, they can do confusion too…..

“Killed the class”? A bit self-absorbed, doncha think? It doesn’t even affect many builds. The profession lives on, thank you very much.

Process this thought – DPS builds for all professions are going to get beat with the nerf-stick until they no longer outshine all other contributions to success. If you were already playing a more Support or Control-minded build, you’re gonna find yourself buffed most days and untouched the rest.

I guess I didn’t understand how this trait worked before.
or, rather, how the others worked.
Debilitating Dissipation, for example: “Clones apply a random condition to nearby foes when they are killed.”
It was always my interpretation that creating a 4th clone destroys the 1st clone. not kill it; destroy it. so creating the 4th would not have the 1st give random condition to foes.
If this is the case, then this update doesn’t affect any other skills or traits. am I wrong about how these skills worked together?
I thought this was a pretty benign update – where dodging simply wouldn’t replace a clone currently out there. personally, I was happy with the update – if I have 3 phantasms out there, I felt like I couldn’t dodge or one of them would go away.

Remember, that while the vigor generating traits are getting a nerf, the sigils of stamina and energy are getting a huge buff, because they will be on their own and not the general sigil cooldowns. So It remains to be seen how this plays out.

I suspect that perma evade builds will still be very viable, perhaps even more powerful, but will require more sigils to properly operate (instead of DPS or other sigils), thus toning down the DPS or other aspects of a perma evade build while not affecting the focus of the build itself.

In case of the mesmer, the clone generating is over the top, there are various issues at play here, I have seen mesmers with 5-6 clones/phantasms up at same time in WvW due to server lag. I know this isnt intentional because it happened to me on my mesmer too as in laggy situations my illusions do not expire / explode on time. Unfortunately I don’t think this is the intended use of mesmer clones, there has to be a hard cap on this on the generating end.

The clone death applies to all the ways clones vanish exept for removal when the original target died AND shatter. they are not procced on shatter, if they will be it will make the traits more useful

For those that wondered like I previously did:
if you have 3 illusions out and you dodge, currently the clone produced from dodging will replace one of the illusions. that is no bueño.
I just tested this

Well, since you necro’ed this thread I’ll add this: Anet is going to revert their decision and they will keep deceptive evasion as is.

where? when?
can they at least make it so summon a clone does not replace a phantasm?

They are “reconsidering” this change.