Guild Wars 2

Preface.

I’m not here to bash or to be a fanboy. If you think Arenanet are a bunch of scheming capitalist overlords who created an entire game just to fleece people, please do us all a favor and don’t post anything. (We think you’re crazy anyway.)

If you think the entire game of GW2 is a failure and WoW/Rift/whatever is omgsomuchbetter, fine. You’re entitled to that opinion. But doom and gloom posts just beg the question… what are you doing here? Please don’t waste your time trying to convince us to go to another game! That’s just silly.

On the other hand, let’s not be coy here: If you think there are problems with the game, please feel free to state them. If you’ve posted them a million times and I haven’t seen it, sorry: I get exhausted by the amount of negativity on these forums and sometimes can’t be bothered to sort through it for real constructive criticism.

On Topic: Does GW2 live up to the “MMO Manifesto” we were all so crazy about?

If you don’t know, the MMO Manifesto can be found here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35BPhT-KI1E and I encourage folks to watch it again after having played the game for almost a year now. It had a very interesting effect on me to watch it… which is partly why I came here and started this discussion.

The MMO Manifesto makes 2 points that are topics of major contest:

1. “We don’t want you to grind in Guild Wars 2!”
2. Your actions truly affect the world in a very personal and permanent way.

Point 1: “We don’t want you to grind in Guild Wars 2!”

This is, for me, about a 75% success and a 25% failure. Let me explain, starting with the bad news.

Guild Wars 2 launched too early, I think. During the first few months, there was quite literally almost nothing fun to do at level 80. Old Orr was unbearable, World Completion was only for Legendary-seekers, and the original dungeons are a bit stale. Due to this “no endgame!” factor, players did what they’ve always done at the end of MMO’s: Grind! They grinded for gold, mostly, towards Legendary weapons.

Let’s clarify something.

Grinding is not defined as something that you personally find un-fun.

To me, a grind is repeating the same task over and over because I have to in order to progress. WoW makes you run the same dungeons and raids dozens of times to get gear for the next dungeons and raids, and so on.

Let’s not sanitize it, though: There’s a KITTEN-ton of stuff you can do over and over for benefits in GW2. Dungeons can be grinded for tokens for sets of armor/weapons, CoF farming is an absolute abomination, and fractals are the definition of a grind.

I absolutely can and do grind in this game… about 25% of the time. The other 75% of my time is spent on Living World content, leveling alts, PVP, and dungeon-crawling. (I consider dungeon-crawling to be running a couple of different dungeons mostly for fun, not farming one over and over!) Since a little bit of grinding is actually fun to me, I rarely spend a single second playing this game where I’m not having fun. If I did, I’d stop playing, because that’s what work is for!

I think Arenanet genuinely wanted to deliver on the no-grind promise, and they’re still trying to do that with Living World. However, I also think they’ve realized that some grind must be involved in a game where people are ready and willing to dump 1000+ hours into it.

Point 2: You affect the world in a permanent way.

This one is, in my view, almost a total success.

Dynamic events are awesome and I can’t see how I ever lived without them. It’s hilarious to have an NPC —- and NPC! —- run up to my character and go “Hey! Help! Meteors are falling on my village!” …and then I turn around and it’s really happening! I think that’s freaking incredible! I laughed out loud the first time it happened because it was so cool.

Does “that village you saved STAY saved”? Well… yeah, for a long time. Not forever. There has to be some rotation, of course, in order for new people to get to play the events. Are some of the timers a bit short? Maybe. I dunno… I haven’t sat around waiting for the same event to happen twice… not to mention the fact that there are SO MANY events you almost can’t walk through a zone without seeing one! On top of that, every event is unique. None of this “Oh look, a WATER Rift this time!” nonsense. Sometimes you’re feeding cows, sometimes you’re putting out fires, sometimes you’re just killing things.

All of this is not to mention Living World, which although the content is temporary is clearly intended to change the world in some permanent ways based on player decisions. Cutthroat Politics is just the first step. What if there’s a dragon we had to defeat, but didn’t? What if someone got assassinated? Not to mention that Fractals of the Mists provides an excellent opportunity to re-introduce old content!

Conclusion

If you’ve read all this, thank you. I maybe just needed to get it out after reading the whiny YouTube comments. Feel free to add your own opinions, I will read them and respond.

In summary, I play this game for a lot of reasons. The phenomenal graphics/art, great music, innovative (although horribly balanced!) PVP, fun combat system, compelling races, rapidly-paced new content, friendly party/guild/looting systems, lack of subscription fee, vibrant community… the list literally goes on!

Do I take long breaks sometimes, up to a month even? Yes.
Am I still enjoying the game? Oh yeah.
Do I think there’s a lot of room for improvement? Yup. Lots.
…But do I feel lied-to regarding the MMO Manifesto and Arenanet’s mission? No, I don’t think I do.

I feel like I was boldly lied to as well.

GW2 didnt live up to it, but hey, for 49$ I got a lot of content.

Hmm… no Vayne yet?

The manifesto was fine. GW2 lived up to it. The only thing(s) in the manifesto that they didn’t live up to, was the whole “Your Story” aspect. You were just along for the ride. It wasn’t your story at all. Everyone took credit for everything you did, making it all about the NPCs, and not you.

The only other thing in that manifesto that could be considered a lie, is the “We take everything you love about GW1, and put it in GW2” phrase. Because it is more of an opinion. For some, everything they loved about GW1 is in GW2. But for others, it is far from it. My personal opinion, is no they didn’t. Most of the stuff I loved from GW1 is not in GW2 at all.

Otherwise, the rest is fine and true.

Yea, waiting for Vayne too.

Pawstruck.9708:

Grinding is not defined as something that you personally find un-fun.

To me, a grind is repeating the same task over and over because I have to in order to progress.

(…)

Dungeons can be grinded for tokens for sets of armor/weapons

Do you notice the contradiction in your own post? If grinding is doing repetitive content you need to do in order to progress, why did you say dungeons could be grinded for tokens, if tokens are not needed to progress in anything?

Erasculio.2914:

Pawstruck.9708:

Grinding is not defined as something that you personally find un-fun.

To me, a grind is repeating the same task over and over because I have to in order to progress.

(…)

Dungeons can be grinded for tokens for sets of armor/weapons

Do you notice the contradiction in your own post? If grinding is doing repetitive content you need to do in order to progress, why did you say dungeons could be grinded for tokens, if tokens are not needed to progress in anything?

Gonna go run semantics on this one. I think he meant that he wanted to progress in a specific dungeon armor piece/set, since it requires x number of tokens to have, ergo.

Alright!!!!!
grabs the popcorn

Yes they did but most just like to twist things kitten in there view they did not.

another guy paid by arena net or an arena net staff posting stuff on their own forumn

I agree for the most part OP, but I still say that the word grind, as used here, is not the grind being talked about. For many many long years, the word grind was meant to mean one thing and one thing only….killing mobs to level. It later got used (and often misused by people) who used it to mean doing a repeated task, but farming is not grinding…they have different words for a reason.

There are many places online you can look to find the original definition of what grind is in a video game. It’s predominantly meant to be killing stuff to level. That’s what korean grinders are all about. That’s how Aion was. You ran out of quests and you had to kill the same mobs over and over. And it’s not, in my opinion, what Colin was talking about.

If he was, the last line of that segment wouldn’t have been we want to change the way people view combat.

He’s talking about combat. About killing. About static combat you have to stand there through. No dodging. No environmental weapons that change things up.

There’s zero evidence he’s talking about grind in the sense of repeating unliked content. Ultimately every game has to have grind, because there’s no such thing as infinite content. Eventually you have to repeat stuff.

The other thing is that there have been interviews where Anet has said there will be things to grind for in the game for those who like that playstyle. I’m almost positive one of those times it was said was in an AMA, but I’ve seen it said a number of times over the years.

And of course, there was plenty of grind in Guild Wars 1. So if Anet said, we don’t make grindy games, but they had title tracks like lucky, unlucky, treasure hunter and the luxon/kurzick…and countless others, then obviously they have to be using grind in a difference sense.

Because in the sense a lot of people are talking about, Guild Wars 1 was grindy as hell.

Did GW2 Live Up to the MMO Manifesto?

Not in any way shape or form, bar the art direction.

If Anet meant what they said any other way than what they said in those lines on the Video, they should have said it in the Video.

No, it did not, except for art.

Dante.1508:

Did GW2 Live Up to the MMO Manifesto?

Not in any way shape or form, bar the art direction.

If Anet meant what they said any other way than what they said in those lines on the Video, they should have said it in the Video.

They said it. You took grind to mean one thing, for example, they meant something else. The definition they used of grind is the same definition me and my friends used pretty much all the time. We called other stuff farming.

As for the confusion with the personal story and dynamic events, they did clarify that due to the confusion, and that clarification was around for a long time. And now it’s been found and posted, so yeah.

Could Anet have been clearer? Probably. But the problem with making a five minute video to explain everything you’re trying to do with a game is that you’re not going to be able to communicate it 100% perfectly to everyone.

How long is this dead horse going to be beat?

Scourge.4317:

How long is this dead horse going to be beat?

When people stop bringing it up to try to prove a point. It’s three years old. It’s contested. People should leave it alone. But as long as they keep beating it up, I’ll keep defending it.

There are things I won’t defend, like random gear from cash boxes…but the manifesto…I think most people aren’t on the same page as Anet. I certainly don’t believe Anet lied in it.

If you people are complaining about grind on GW2 – you either haven’t played other MMO’s – or you paid your way on it.

I mean, everything is easy on GW2 (okay, except probably Legendaries). Yes, there are time gated content, but hey, all you’ll do is wait.

I don’t mean to flame – I am just wondering why tons of people are seeing the grind. I might be missing something – I don’t know.

Do we really need another thread on this, why not just piggyback no Vayne’s thread?

kossman.8206:

Alright!!!!!
grabs the popcorn

sweet! the new episode of “manifesto wars” is on. turn up the volume and slide over so i can sit down.

. . . is it that time of month again to get to work on the Manifesto once more? Hang on, I need my hipwaders and shovel because this is gonna be too good to avoid.

Did it live up to the Manifesto? Yes and no. Yes in the sense that I got what I expected from hearing the Manifesto but no in that I don’t think any came could fully encompass what is described there at this time. There’s not enough development time and funding to allow it short of some guy bankrolling it with his private accounts (Paging Richard Gariott…)

But I’m tired of talking about it on a case by case basis because, frankly, I know no matter what I say nobody who disagrees will be convinced. It’s a favorite pinata, except this one doesn’t give you even that horrible salty Zhaitaffy which was next to worthless. All it does is get fans worked up because they like the game, flaws and all, and that’s just unacceptable to some people.

knives.6345:

If you people are complaining about grind on GW2 – you either haven’t played other MMO’s – or you paid your way on it.

I mean, everything is easy on GW2 (okay, except probably Legendaries). Yes, there are time gated content, but hey, all you’ll do is wait.

I don’t mean to flame – I am just wondering why tons of people are seeing the grind. I might be missing something – I don’t know.

I would assume it’s people like me who played the original Guild Wars, which was not an MMO, it was an online RPG. Grind was not related to gear power, the best gear was obtained midway through one of the 3 main story campaigns. Guild Wars 2 is my first MMO, save doing trials on a few others.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

. . . is it that time of month again to get to work on the Manifesto once more? Hang on, I need my hipwaders and shovel because this is gonna be too good to avoid.

Did it live up to the Manifesto? Yes and no. Yes in the sense that I got what I expected from hearing the Manifesto but no in that I don’t think any came could fully encompass what is described there at this time. There’s not enough development time and funding to allow it short of some guy bankrolling it with his private accounts (Paging Richard Gariott…)

But I’m tired of talking about it on a case by case basis because, frankly, I know no matter what I say nobody who disagrees will be convinced. It’s a favorite pinata, except this one doesn’t give you even that horrible salty Zhaitaffy which was next to worthless. All it does is get fans worked up because they like the game, flaws and all, and that’s just unacceptable to some people.

I don’t really have problems with people saying they don’t feel the game lived up to the manifesto. My main grievance is with people saying that Anet lied….straight out lied.

I don’t see the lie and I’ll fight that particular bit of hyperbole because in order to say they lied, you have to prove intent to deceive.

Living up to it, that’s very much a matter of opinion.

And here is the exact quote the grind comment came from

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/ArenaNet's_MMO_Manifesto_trailer
Colin Johanson: “When you look at the art in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s visually stunning. I’ve never seen anything like that before,’ and then when you play the combat in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s incredible. I’ve never seen anything like that.’ In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, occasionally, that you get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. ‘I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again.’ That’s great. We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun. We want to change the way that people view combat.”

You have to take the quote as a whole. Taking one sentence out and putting your interpretation on it and not his meaning, is not accurate.

He was talking about grind as it relates to combat. Specifically grinding to level. He was not talking about any other type of grind. GW as always had a lot of grind. But for vanity items, titles, armor, etc. He never said there was no grind for that.

does it even matter lol, there a list as long as my arm of issues this game has that aren’t even touched on in the manifesto that really its just the tip of the iceberg.

and tbh holding them to goals set before the game went live is pointless. thing change, and they tend to do so far faster when experience is put into practice. we should hold far more scrutiny over there current goals/ successes and failures.

It did for me, I never felt like I was grinding for anything, the game leaves me free to play the content I want to play and still make progress towards the reward I feel like. I like that aspect very much. I quit many MMOs once I got to max level simply because they meant repeating the same dungeons over and over again, I hate that find that grindy. Never had to do that in Gw2… plenty of stuff to explore and 2 week content practically guarantees I never have to grind anything which is great.

Change I totally agree with OP… Dynamic events are amazing. Their attention to detail is astounding… NPC needs to call a caravan to transport some artifacts? That NPC called in a pigeon, leaned to tie a message to that pigeon’s foot and then the pigeon flew off. The caravan then arrives a few minutes later. Its great to see things happening in front of you in a logical way. I came in this game with really high expectation with regards to dynamic events, I was sure they were going to let me down cause I couldnt believe how anything could live up to what I imagined. The first time I followed an NPC after an event to see what would happen I realized Arenanet not only lived up to my expectations… they exceeded them!

Well would you look at that, another manifesto thread. The dead horse metaphor inadequately describes this particular topic by now…

Look, ANet clearly went another way. Living Story has practically become the heart of this game, and a year ago that concept wasn’t even around, I doubt even the devs wanted to go into this direction back then. Most importantly, what I wanted out of the game a year ago is completely different from what I’m expecting of the game now.

If they get Living Story right — which I still feels need to be realized — as pointed out in the second half of the year blog, then this game can reach new heights. Sure, GW2 has its share okittenks, but living up to the manifesto pipe dream is no longer the objective.

Here’s what I think… screw the manifesto, and get over it.

Azjenco.9425:

Here’s what I think… screw the manifesto, and get over it.

+1

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Since there is already an existing thread regarding this issue this thread will now be closed. Please visit this thread instead: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Manifesto-Clarification