Guild Wars 2

Miellyn.6847:

They have 3 LS teams, a raid team and a fractals team. Rewards are most likely produced by a team that interact with all 3 areas.

There is also the sPvP team, and the WvW team. Then the balance team that does the class changes. I believe there is also a economy team (the guys that do the rewards and control crafting) Oh and the storywriters.

Also the “teams” things as far as I know only refers to the designers. The artists and programmers that actually produce the content are separate and probably jump around between projects. (assuming Anet works like most software companies)

Crinn.7864:

Miellyn.6847:

They have 3 LS teams, a raid team and a fractals team. Rewards are most likely produced by a team that interact with all 3 areas.

There is also the sPvP team, and the WvW team. Then the balance team that does the class changes. I believe there is also a economy team (the guys that do the rewards and control crafting) Oh and the storywriters.

Also the “teams” things as far as I know only refers to the designers. The artists and programmers that actually produce the content are separate and probably jump around between projects. (assuming Anet works like most software companies)

The raid and fractal teams have their own programmer, they write occasionally on reddit. I think LS and WvW have their own programmers too.

Here is the real issue as I see it.

When they added raids with a singular, restrictive mode, they essentially forced (or strongly pushed) people to conform to playing that mode one way.

For people that treat the game as a mathematical sport – min/maxing and constantly grinding for new stat sets – this was a non-issue.

But for many of those that play the game for the experience of being a hero in a fantasy world, it breaks the illusion that they matter in the game.

• That Nomad Guardian that acts as the bulwark between evil and good – that uses his shield to protect his friends – he has no place in raids.

• That monster-inspired Necromancer, swinging his sword and chilling his foes – he is a joke next to the “real monsters.”

• That tricksy mesmer using illusions to misdirect, confuse and torment his opponents – he is nothing compared to his boon sharing bot friends.

• That revenenant channeling the power of Tyria’s greatest heroes – he might as well be channeling Rachel Ray.

• The scrapper powering up his hammer to shred through his opponents – again, no real power at all.

• (and pretty much any other build that isn’t close to the “meta”)

Before, even with the existence of lvl 100 fractals, these players could feel like the hero – they could still face down Mai Trin (at a lower level) with their friends, achieving that feeling that they were a hero in the world of Tyria – that they repelled the threat.

Raids – because they have an single, restrictive tier, change that.

The difficulty of raids are nothing more than this simple equation:

• Copy/Paste Build + Memorize/Mimic dance = dead raid boss

They aren’t really difficult – as long as you are willing to compromise the identity of your character. What they are is restrictive and sucking the fun out of the Tyrian experience for any that don’t want to conform to cookie cutter builds and playstyles.

People don’t want to play as the hero that faces everything down except for XYZ threat. And many don’t want to cater to the stepford wife style that the current raiding model pushes on people. These are the players most affected by raids – that are growing more and more disillusioned with the game.

That is why the simple addition of raids (with a singular difficulty mode) has such a negative impact on the game’s identity – because it damages the player’s self identity. It breaks the illusion of being the hero in a game that is all about being the hero.

Or you know those people could form a group, with other people that don’t care what build is being run, and take on that challenge.

I run my necromancer, power or condi, but I adapt to the situation and I can play the class well enough that I am consistently towards the top of my group in dps (the role I am there to fulfill). So yes, they can group up, and go work on killing that boss. They may fail for hours at a time, but they can improve and eventually kill that boss (with 2 maybe 3 exceptions, out of 13 potential bosses). The point is, that they can run what ever they want, and if they improve enough, they can beat it.

Maybe that is the underlying issue, people don’t want to improve their gameplay, or feel that they have to improve to complete said boss, which is honestly just sad.

Also, anyone that joins a “Team” based event, and doesn’t wish to adapt to the needs of the team, isn’t a team player.

TL:DR: the only thing preventing those players from enjoying the content, is themselves.

Fatalyz.7168:

Or you know those people could form a group, with other people that don’t care what build is being run, and take on that challenge.

I run my necromancer, power or condi, but I adapt to the situation and I can play the class well enough that I am consistently towards the top of my group in dps (the role I am there to fulfill). So yes, they can group up, and go work on killing that boss. They may fail for hours at a time, but they can improve and eventually kill that boss (with 2 maybe 3 exceptions, out of 13 potential bosses). The point is, that they can run what ever they want, and if they improve enough, they can beat it.

Maybe that is the underlying issue, people don’t want to improve their gameplay, or feel that they have to improve to complete said boss, which is honestly just sad.

Also, anyone that joins a “Team” based event, and doesn’t wish to adapt to the needs of the team, isn’t a team player.

TL:DR: the only thing preventing those players from enjoying the content, is themselves.

Once again, you are looking at it from only one side of the issue. I strongly suggest trying to think about it from a big picture perspective.

Yes, groups that have mastered the raid can pretty much bring whatever they want. To say that is true of everyone else is shortsighted, imo.

The point is, you have people disillusioned with the game for the reasons I list above. That is an issue that the developers need to acknowledge and address.

No one is advocating for the removal or even watering down of difficult content. That is not the argument here. This is about developing (adding to existing) content that appeals to more people and (VERY IMPORTANTLY) doesn’t actively damage how people perceive their characters in game.

Are you arguing that people shouldn’t have to get better at their class and master the mechanics of the fight to be able to pass it?

Your argument that people shouldn’t have to conform to a specific build is easily proven otherwise. The only thing left to figure out, how much work are those people willing to put in to clearing the content, and a vast majority do not want to put in much effort at all. Given that Raids sole development purpose is as Challenging Group Content, it does that, and offering watered down versions does not. In their current iteration, as Challenging Group Content, Anet has set a clear barometer for what they want Raids to be.

Or perhaps people are arguing to have Anet make Raids their main form of end game PvE content, instead of Open World. However, it’s been made clear that Anet wants Open World to be their main form of delivering end game content and story. Or maybe people are asking to have both as the main form of pve end game content and story, which honestly doesn’t seem feasible given their current structure and release cadence.

Blaeys.3102:

Here is the real issue as I see it.

When they added raids with a singular, restrictive mode, they essentially forced (or strongly pushed) people to conform to playing that mode one way.

For people that treat the game as a mathematical sport – min/maxing and constantly grinding for new stat sets – this was a non-issue.

But for many of those that play the game for the experience of being a hero in a fantasy world, it breaks the illusion that they matter in the game.

• That Nomad Guardian that acts as the bulwark between evil and good – that uses his shield to protect his friends – he has no place in raids.

• That monster-inspired Necromancer, swinging his sword and chilling his foes – he is a joke next to the “real monsters.”

• That tricksy mesmer using illusions to misdirect, confuse and torment his opponents – he is nothing compared to his boon sharing bot friends.

• That revenenant channeling the power of Tyria’s greatest heroes – he might as well be channeling Rachel Ray.

• The scrapper powering up his hammer to shred through his opponents – again, no real power at all.

• (and pretty much any other build that isn’t close to the “meta”)

Before, even with the existence of lvl 100 fractals, these players could feel like the hero – they could still face down Mai Trin (at a lower level) with their friends, achieving that feeling that they were a hero in the world of Tyria – that they repelled the threat.

Raids – because they have an single, restrictive tier, change that.

The difficulty of raids are nothing more than this simple equation:

• Copy/Paste Build + Memorize/Mimic dance = dead raid boss

They aren’t really difficult – as long as you are willing to compromise the identity of your character. What they are is restrictive and sucking the fun out of the Tyrian experience for any that don’t want to conform to cookie cutter builds and playstyles.

People don’t want to play as the hero that faces everything down except for XYZ threat. And many don’t want to cater to the stepford wife style that the current raiding model pushes on people. These are the players most affected by raids – that are growing more and more disillusioned with the game.

That is why the simple addition of raids (with a singular difficulty mode) has such a negative impact on the game’s identity – because it damages the player’s self identity. It breaks the illusion of being the hero in a game that is all about being the hero.

While that might be true for you and some few others, it is not true for me and for some few others. What you’ve described is raids-in-a-nutshell in every game they are features in. GW2 offers different endgame pursuits — a lot more than other MMO’s. MMO’s survive by offering different things to fulfill different desires. They cannot cater to the mindset that says, “I want to be able to do everything the game offers and all content has to be designed to fit my desires and comfort level, no matter how far from the mainstream those desires and comfort level lie.”

So, did GW2 change its identity by offering raids.? I think it’s closer to the truth to say that GW2 failed to live up to the design intent for its identity due to the failure of explorable dungeons to fill the coordinated, skilled content niche — and is now trying to address that deficiency.

Fatalyz.7168

“Maybe that is the underlying issue, people don’t want to improve their gameplay, or feel that they have to improve to complete said boss, which is honestly just sad.”

I love the fallacy that non-raiders are lazy players who don’t want to improve or work for their rewards continues to persist. Take a look at my comments on page 16, I’ve outlined valid numerous reasons why this statement isn’t true and the real reason is the unnecessary “social challenge” barrier.

“Are you arguing that people shouldn’t have to get better at their class and master the mechanics of the fight to be able to pass it?”

Nope, that’s not what Blaeys.3102 is saying. He wants challenging content which has low barriers of entry that pretty much anyone can get into, the only thing to should define success or failure is dedication. The irony with Raids, is that the “social challenge” element (and barrier of entry) actually hurts how “challenging” they can actually make Raids. Look at my comments on page 16 for more details.

As Blaeys.3102 has said

“The difficulty of raids are nothing more than this simple equation:

Copy/Paste Build + Memorize/Mimic dance = dead raid boss"

Now look at gold standard Action RPG games (Nioh, Dark Souls, Bloodborne), take a look at videos of boss fights from those games compared to GW2. The difference in quality of challenging content is staggering. Gold standard ARPG’s have excellent designed bosses, no barriers of entry (can try whenever you want, and not get leashed down by other people), personal skill is the determining factor not trying to get the highest dps numbers (ironically to speed up the fight and avoid boss mechanics).

How does GW2 try to make “challenging content”? By gating the learning experience behind group drama and dealing with unprofessional internet strangers, and when you get past the painful “training” phase. You find out the “challenge” of the content is to memorize formula, then mindlessly farm it. Try turning off your brain in games like Nioh and Dark Souls, doesn’t work.

Without the “social challenge” aspect of raids, there isn’t much challenge. Maybe that’s why Anet is afraid to implement heroes in this game. Because people like myself would clear their “challenging content” in a day, like I did for Hard Mode Slavers Exile, Domain of Anguish, The Deep, etc.

Chun.5827:

I love the fallacy that non-raiders are lazy players who don’t want to improve or work for their rewards continues to persist. Take a look at my comments on page 16, I’ve outlined valid numerous reasons why this statement isn’t true and the real reason is the unnecessary “social challenge” barrier.

That barrier is all on them, they can make friends or join a guild. The difference between can and can’t is the mind set.

Chun.5827:

“Are you arguing that people shouldn’t have to get better at their class and master the mechanics of the fight to be able to pass it?”

Nope, that’s not what Blaeys.3102 is saying. He wants challenging content which has low barriers of entry that pretty much anyone can get into, the only thing to should define success or failure is dedication. The irony with Raids, is that the “social challenge” element (and barrier of entry) actually hurts how “challenging” they can actually make Raids. Look at my comments on page 16 for more details.

Raids already have a low barrier of entry, willingness. If that is too much to ask, then leave those behind.

Chun.5827:

As Blaeys.3102 has said

“The difficulty of raids are nothing more than this simple equation:

Copy/Paste Build + Memorize/Mimic dance = dead raid boss"

If you want difficulty, run a non-meta comp. Meta comps increase the ease at which the encounter can be completed, those that want a challenge will find a way to beat the content outside that meta.

Chun.5827:

Now look at gold standard Action RPG games (Nioh, Dark Souls, Bloodborne), take a look at videos of boss fights from those games compared to GW2. The difference in quality of challenging content is staggering. Gold standard ARPG’s have excellent designed bosses, no barriers of entry (can try whenever you want, and not get leashed down by other people), personal skill is the determining factor not trying to get the highest dps numbers (ironically to speed up the fight and avoid boss mechanics).

How does GW2 try to make “challenging content”? By gating the learning experience behind group drama and dealing with unprofessional internet strangers, and when you get past the painful “training” phase. You find out the “challenge” of the content is to memorize formula, then mindlessly farm it. Try turning off your brain in games like Nioh and Dark Souls, doesn’t work.

Without the “social challenge” aspect of raids, there isn’t much challenge. Maybe that’s why Anet is afraid to implement heroes in this game. Because people like myself would clear their “challenging content” in a day, like I did for Hard Mode Slavers Exile, Domain of Anguish, The Deep, etc.

If you want games that cater towards hard-core raiding experiences, there are plenty of those out there on the market. Guild Wars 2 isn’t trying to be a hard-core raiding experience. It is trying to be an open world experience, that offers raids for those that want more challenging content in the game, and that is exactly what they are delivering on.

Edit: To further add, Raids in this game are a niche offering that caters to a select crowd, people feel left out, and to that I say “Oh well, there are numerous ways that they can take part, and that if they feel left out, it’s all in their own head”.

Chun.5827:

Without the “social challenge” aspect of raids, there isn’t much challenge. Maybe that’s why Anet is afraid to implement heroes in this game. Because people like myself would clear their “challenging content” in a day, like I did for Hard Mode Slavers Exile, Domain of Anguish, The Deep, etc.

I take it this means that you have solo’d Cairn?

Fatalyz.7168:

Guild Wars 2 isn’t trying to be a hard-core raiding experience. It is trying to be an open world experience, that offers raids for those that want more challenging content in the game, and that is exactly what they are delivering on.

Care to give an official source on it?

Rednik.3809:

Fatalyz.7168:

Guild Wars 2 isn’t trying to be a hard-core raiding experience. It is trying to be an open world experience, that offers raids for those that want more challenging content in the game, and that is exactly what they are delivering on.

Care to give an official source on it?

Nope.

“Raids already have a low barrier of entry, willingness. If that is too much to ask, then leave those behind.”

Really now? Where is my team of heroes, so that I am in control of all aspects of the raid? I’ll be more than willing to take part.

“Oh well, there are numerous ways that they can take part, and that if they feel left out, it’s all in their own head”.

Tell me about the “numerous” ways to take part. List at least 3 different reasonable ways. “if they feel left out, its all in their head”, basically translated to your not one of us, get out? Its all in your head, so whatever you say doesn’t matter? Does that sound about right? Do you take that philosophy into life as well? I hope you don’t work in a professional environment regulated by a professional association (Engineering, Medicine, Psychology). Professional companies and clients don’t like working with people, with attitude issues. Especially professions that rely on on their members with high ethical standards, to maintain the reputation of their trade.

People with your attitude are exactly why the Raiding scene is poisoned. If there was a Professional Association of Raiders, that regulates the practices of raiders. Unprofessional attitude would be stamped out. Good conduct and practice would be enforced. Unfortunately, such a association does not exist. The “social” aspect of the Raiding is off putting because of unprofessional amateurish conduct from the raiding community.

Also, your comment about soloing Cairn? Have you ever heard of “Bestheda Difficulty”. Its essentially cheap artificial difficulty where you fight massive damage sponge, that do large damage to the player. That’s not fair, ingenious, challenging content. Take a look at Dark Souls, Bloodborne and Nioh. Real challenging content, takes much more effort than simply changing number values to favor the boss.

I want casual challenging content that I can easily leave and enter, at any time, with emphasis on skill and dedication, without being disadvantaged. Its a game, why do I care about hardcore? I am not going to waste my time arranging my schedule with 9 other players, and not get paid. The only things worth going hardcore about, involve a paycheck, and professional ethical co-workers.

At this point, I think gw1 is the better game and that’s sad.

There has been a strong trend to serve the highest end players.

Another trend has been to simplify and consolidate the classes. Chronomancer is more-or-less a light armored warrior.

I think both are mistakes. Raids please elite players, until they get bored, like dungeons before them. I struggle now to get a party to run dungeons even though I do teaching runs and sometimes take players 10 levels below the recommended. Raids and high level fractals will see the same fate.

One of the primary attractions of GW2 was it’s diversity. That’s being steadily shaved away.

Chun.5827:

“Raids already have a low barrier of entry, willingness. If that is too much to ask, then leave those behind.”

Really now? Where is my team of heroes, so that I am in control of all aspects of the raid? I’ll be more than willing to take part.

Why? So you are not forced to play with other people?

Chun.5827:

“Oh well, there are numerous ways that they can take part, and that if they feel left out, it’s all in their own head”.

Tell me about the “numerous” ways to take part. List at least 3 different reasonable ways.

- open LFG and look for one of the many training runs
- look for a training raid guild that teaches every mechanic, explains builds and strategies
- join a raiding guild and only raid with this guild. In raiding guilds things like optimal classes and builds are less important since you form a static group and in that group different compositions are possible. If you are pugging you need everyone to be optimial since you don’t know each other

Chun.5827:

“if they feel left out, its all in their head”, basically translated to your not one of us, get out? Its all in your head, so whatever you say doesn’t matter? Does that sound about right?

Where did you read THAT? If they feel left out its, its all in their head obviously means that they need to change their attitude to do this content. Every game mode needs an special attitude to play it with. PvP, WvW, Fractals and Raids have all different mindsets.

Chun.5827:

Also, your comment about soloing Cairn? Have you ever heard of “Bestheda Difficulty”. Its essentially cheap artificial difficulty where you fight massive damage sponge, that do large damage to the player. That’s not fair, ingenious, challenging content. Take a look at Dark Souls, Bloodborne and Nioh. Real challenging content, takes much more effort than simply changing number values to favor the boss.

So every hard game YOU beat is now the benchmark for challanging content. Different people think differently about challange.

Chun.5827:

I want casual challenging content that I can easily leave and enter, at any time, with emphasis on skill and dedication, without being disadvantaged. Its a game, why do I care about hardcore? I am not going to waste my time arranging my schedule with 9 other players, and not get paid. The only things worth going hardcore about, involve a paycheck, and professional ethical co-workers.

Raiding in generell might not be the right thing for you.

Fatalyz.7168:

3) Yes I am like this is real life, no I intentionally avoid professional careers because I don’t like people, and yet even I was able to find a group of 9 other people I can be 2 times a week for a couple of hours each time.

9 other people who also want to raid…

Djinn.9245:

Fatalyz.7168:

3) Yes I am like this is real life, no I intentionally avoid professional careers because I don’t like people, and yet even I was able to find a group of 9 other people I can be 2 times a week for a couple of hours each time.

9 other people who also want to raid…

fixed

the introduction of Raids is where GW2 lost its identity. welcome back holy trinity.

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

the introduction of Raids is where GW2 lost its identity. welcome back holy trinity.

Literally only in raids. And not even on all raid bosses.

Though I am starting to be less surprised about what the forums discuss these days, we got players complaining about Floppy Fish so I suppose anything can be complained about.

I don’t think the game “lost” it’s identity, I think Anet beat it to death with a stick.

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

the introduction of Raids is where GW2 lost its identity. welcome back holy trinity.

In fairness, they seem to be backing off reliance on tank/healer/dps, even in raids. Most fights no longer require a tank.

That said, raids – in the form they chose to introduce them – were definitely the primary catalyst behind the shift in how the game plays and is perceived (and not in a good way).

Specifically, raids have moved endgame to a more mathematical, rather than character or experience based, style of play. While some people enjoy that, it most definitely isn’t what we saw in the first 4 years of the game. For many, that is depressing.

I know a lot of people will say that “you just dont have to do raids,” but I think that is shortsighted. As I explained above, players need to feel like the hero of the story. When you take that away from them, the game is going to feel less exciting – thus the “identity change.”

(and, to anticipate the typical response – it has been taken away unless you are willing to compromise how you enjoy playing – basically the core identity of your character)

Fatalyz.7168:

Rednik.3809:

Fatalyz.7168:

Guild Wars 2 isn’t trying to be a hard-core raiding experience. It is trying to be an open world experience, that offers raids for those that want more challenging content in the game, and that is exactly what they are delivering on.

Care to give an official source on it?

Nope.

So, it’s just your personal opinion. Okay.

Blaeys.3102:

players need to feel like the hero of the story.

It’s true that Anet did try to give that feeling, but I did always find that a little silly. All these stories where you are the center of attention. We all know everybody gets exactly that same story so it feels fake.

I much rather see them going fore the ‘you are one of the explorers’ approach and you all make your own story based on the things you do. Instead of this single story where we all are the hero.

Anyway, what I don’t get is how ‘the trinity’ would make that you are less of a hero or how ‘the trinity’ would make it feel more like mathematical.

Builds have always been a thing in GW2 and that is the mathematical part of the game. Also not my favorite, but it’s unrelated to a ‘trinity’. Raids push everything to the limits so including the mathematical part, but that’s about it.

And if anything a trinity makes you feel MORE like a hero (but in a good way, not in a story way) because now your contribution does matter. Without a system like that you could simply be tagging along, it would just be a big mess of DPS and you did not really have any specific role. Your role did not matter because you did not have a role.

Now lets say you are a tank and you manage to keep the boss aggro to you, you do your task well, leaving the other group to kill him. Your role / contribution clearly matters.

Same for the other roles. That was something GW2 was lacking.

Also I put the trinity between quotes because a trinity refers to tank, healer, DPS. And while roles became more of a things in GW2 with raids, they are not just the trinity. There are different type of roles. That was in fact the way Anet always intended it. They never said no roles, they said no trinity.

However that did not really worked out as planned and it turned in to full DPS. What they fixed in raids.

What I find most interesting about this thread is how people keep blaming Raids. Raids did not make that much of a difference for the game as a total, it just added a new gameplay as end-game.

The problem this game has, it had from the beginning. And it’s something that gets people bored overtime. HoT should have fixed that to keep peoples attention, but HoT did not fix it. That is why many people might feel not like playing anymore. Now that might mean it feels like it ‘lost it identity’ but in reality you simply got tired of the game. And like I said before, the reason for that was in GW2 from the beginning.

The only thing Anet / HoT did not do correct if it comes to this matter, is addressing and solving that issue. And now you are simply bored by the game and might not feel like playing. That however is not because the game has lost it’s identity. It’s because you got burned out by the game.

Rednik.3809:

Fatalyz.7168:

Rednik.3809:

Fatalyz.7168:

Guild Wars 2 isn’t trying to be a hard-core raiding experience. It is trying to be an open world experience, that offers raids for those that want more challenging content in the game, and that is exactly what they are delivering on.

Care to give an official source on it?

Nope.

So, it’s just your personal opinion. Okay.

You didn’t ask if it was my opinion. You asked if I cared to. No, I didn’t care to, and still don’t.

Fatalyz.7168:

You didn’t ask if it was my opinion. You asked if I cared to. No, I didn’t care to, and still don’t.

You made a statement, and unable to prove that this statement is something more than your personal opinion. So, it is your personal opinion. Simple.

Blaeys.3102:

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

the introduction of Raids is where GW2 lost its identity. welcome back holy trinity.

In fairness, they seem to be backing off reliance on tank/healer/dps, even in raids. Most fights no longer require a tank.

That said, raids – in the form they chose to introduce them – were definitely the primary catalyst behind the shift in how the game plays and is perceived (and not in a good way).

Specifically, raids have moved endgame to a more mathematical, rather than character or experience based, style of play. While some people enjoy that, it most definitely isn’t what we saw in the first 4 years of the game. For many, that is depressing.

I know a lot of people will say that “you just dont have to do raids,” but I think that is shortsighted. As I explained above, players need to feel like the hero of the story. When you take that away from them, the game is going to feel less exciting – thus the “identity change.”

(and, to anticipate the typical response – it has been taken away unless you are willing to compromise how you enjoy playing – basically the core identity of your character)

And yet, it has been proven that it is not as mathematical as you make it out to be, see people low-manning or running in Green gear. Yes, they have mastered the mechanics of the raid, as well as their class, that is the point. You are intended to master your class and the mechanics of the raid, to beat it.

Are you suggesting people shouldn’t have to master their class (however they choose to play it) and master the mechanics?

Rednik.3809:

Fatalyz.7168:

You didn’t ask if it was my opinion. You asked if I cared to. No, I didn’t care to, and still don’t.

You made a statement, and unable to prove that this statement is something more than your personal opinion. So, it is your personal opinion. Simple.

I never said I was unable to prove my statement.

Again, you only asked me if I cared to. Me not caring to, does not equal inability.

Fatalyz.7168:

Blaeys.3102:

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

the introduction of Raids is where GW2 lost its identity. welcome back holy trinity.

In fairness, they seem to be backing off reliance on tank/healer/dps, even in raids. Most fights no longer require a tank.

That said, raids – in the form they chose to introduce them – were definitely the primary catalyst behind the shift in how the game plays and is perceived (and not in a good way).

Specifically, raids have moved endgame to a more mathematical, rather than character or experience based, style of play. While some people enjoy that, it most definitely isn’t what we saw in the first 4 years of the game. For many, that is depressing.

I know a lot of people will say that “you just dont have to do raids,” but I think that is shortsighted. As I explained above, players need to feel like the hero of the story. When you take that away from them, the game is going to feel less exciting – thus the “identity change.”

(and, to anticipate the typical response – it has been taken away unless you are willing to compromise how you enjoy playing – basically the core identity of your character)

And yet, it has been proven that it is not as mathematical as you make it out to be, see people low-manning or running in Green gear. Yes, they have mastered the mechanics of the raid, as well as their class, that is the point. You are intended to master your class and the mechanics of the raid, to beat it.

Are you suggesting people shouldn’t have to master their class (however they choose to play it) and master the mechanics?

It is mathematical, its just that the required minimum numbers arent as high as some believe.

Ashen.2907:

Fatalyz.7168:

Blaeys.3102:

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

the introduction of Raids is where GW2 lost its identity. welcome back holy trinity.

In fairness, they seem to be backing off reliance on tank/healer/dps, even in raids. Most fights no longer require a tank.

That said, raids – in the form they chose to introduce them – were definitely the primary catalyst behind the shift in how the game plays and is perceived (and not in a good way).

Specifically, raids have moved endgame to a more mathematical, rather than character or experience based, style of play. While some people enjoy that, it most definitely isn’t what we saw in the first 4 years of the game. For many, that is depressing.

I know a lot of people will say that “you just dont have to do raids,” but I think that is shortsighted. As I explained above, players need to feel like the hero of the story. When you take that away from them, the game is going to feel less exciting – thus the “identity change.”

(and, to anticipate the typical response – it has been taken away unless you are willing to compromise how you enjoy playing – basically the core identity of your character)

And yet, it has been proven that it is not as mathematical as you make it out to be, see people low-manning or running in Green gear. Yes, they have mastered the mechanics of the raid, as well as their class, that is the point. You are intended to master your class and the mechanics of the raid, to beat it.

Are you suggesting people shouldn’t have to master their class (however they choose to play it) and master the mechanics?

It is mathematical, its just that the required minimum numbers arent as high as some believe.

Thank you, this was a better way of phrasing what I was attempting to get across. There is still math, but the required numbers are lower than people believe.

Fatalyz.7168:

I never said I was unable to prove my statement.

Again, you only asked me if I cared to. Me not caring to, does not equal inability.

In that case – why anybody should take your empty assumptions as something more than opinion?

Rednik.3809:

Fatalyz.7168:

I never said I was unable to prove my statement.

Again, you only asked me if I cared to. Me not caring to, does not equal inability.

In that case – why anybody should take your empty assumptions as something more than opinion?

Why would you take something that was never proposed as something more than opinion, as more than opinion?

Fatalyz.7168:

Ashen.2907:

Fatalyz.7168:

Blaeys.3102:

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

the introduction of Raids is where GW2 lost its identity. welcome back holy trinity.

In fairness, they seem to be backing off reliance on tank/healer/dps, even in raids. Most fights no longer require a tank.

That said, raids – in the form they chose to introduce them – were definitely the primary catalyst behind the shift in how the game plays and is perceived (and not in a good way).

Specifically, raids have moved endgame to a more mathematical, rather than character or experience based, style of play. While some people enjoy that, it most definitely isn’t what we saw in the first 4 years of the game. For many, that is depressing.

I know a lot of people will say that “you just dont have to do raids,” but I think that is shortsighted. As I explained above, players need to feel like the hero of the story. When you take that away from them, the game is going to feel less exciting – thus the “identity change.”

(and, to anticipate the typical response – it has been taken away unless you are willing to compromise how you enjoy playing – basically the core identity of your character)

And yet, it has been proven that it is not as mathematical as you make it out to be, see people low-manning or running in Green gear. Yes, they have mastered the mechanics of the raid, as well as their class, that is the point. You are intended to master your class and the mechanics of the raid, to beat it.

Are you suggesting people shouldn’t have to master their class (however they choose to play it) and master the mechanics?

It is mathematical, its just that the required minimum numbers arent as high as some believe.

Thank you, this was a better way of phrasing what I was attempting to get across. There is still math, but the required numbers are lower than people believe.

This is a fair point.

That said, I think there is still a point where the math becomes untenable for many players – where it overshadows the experience of the game.

I realize that isnt the case for everyone – that many enjoy the calculator style play that is common with min maxing and raids.

But, it isn’t what we came to expect from GW2. It shifted the feel of the game and, while that is mainly limited to raids, it has an affect on the feel of the entire end game as players feel excluded unless they shift how they like to play. That, for me, is at the heart of the identify shift and is something I think they need to address.

Blaeys.3102:

Fatalyz.7168:

Ashen.2907:

Fatalyz.7168:

Blaeys.3102:

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

the introduction of Raids is where GW2 lost its identity. welcome back holy trinity.

In fairness, they seem to be backing off reliance on tank/healer/dps, even in raids. Most fights no longer require a tank.

That said, raids – in the form they chose to introduce them – were definitely the primary catalyst behind the shift in how the game plays and is perceived (and not in a good way).

Specifically, raids have moved endgame to a more mathematical, rather than character or experience based, style of play. While some people enjoy that, it most definitely isn’t what we saw in the first 4 years of the game. For many, that is depressing.

I know a lot of people will say that “you just dont have to do raids,” but I think that is shortsighted. As I explained above, players need to feel like the hero of the story. When you take that away from them, the game is going to feel less exciting – thus the “identity change.”

(and, to anticipate the typical response – it has been taken away unless you are willing to compromise how you enjoy playing – basically the core identity of your character)

And yet, it has been proven that it is not as mathematical as you make it out to be, see people low-manning or running in Green gear. Yes, they have mastered the mechanics of the raid, as well as their class, that is the point. You are intended to master your class and the mechanics of the raid, to beat it.

Are you suggesting people shouldn’t have to master their class (however they choose to play it) and master the mechanics?

It is mathematical, its just that the required minimum numbers arent as high as some believe.

Thank you, this was a better way of phrasing what I was attempting to get across. There is still math, but the required numbers are lower than people believe.

This is a fair point.

That said, I think there is still a point where the math becomes untenable for many players – where it overshadows the experience of the game.

I realize that isnt the case for everyone – that many enjoy the calculator style play that is common with min maxing and raids.

But, it isn’t what we came to expect from GW2. It shifted the feel of the game and, while that is mainly limited to raids, it has a affect on the feel of the entire end game as players feel excluded unless they shift how they like to play. That, for me, is at the heart of the identify shift and is something I think they need to address.

Who says you need to enjoy calculator style play and min max to enjoy raids in this game?

Raids are easy enough in this game that they can already easily be enjoyed by most groups. Those that want to min-max to the teeth, down to the person that wants to play his tank Dragonhunter and protect his allies from harm. Both groups still have to understand the mechanics of the fight to pass, both have an equal chance of success. One group will probably clear the content faster than the other, but at the end of the day, does it matter how fast content is completed, if you are having fun?

Fatalyz.7168:

Blaeys.3102:

Fatalyz.7168:

Ashen.2907:

Fatalyz.7168:

Blaeys.3102:

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

the introduction of Raids is where GW2 lost its identity. welcome back holy trinity.

In fairness, they seem to be backing off reliance on tank/healer/dps, even in raids. Most fights no longer require a tank.

That said, raids – in the form they chose to introduce them – were definitely the primary catalyst behind the shift in how the game plays and is perceived (and not in a good way).

Specifically, raids have moved endgame to a more mathematical, rather than character or experience based, style of play. While some people enjoy that, it most definitely isn’t what we saw in the first 4 years of the game. For many, that is depressing.

I know a lot of people will say that “you just dont have to do raids,” but I think that is shortsighted. As I explained above, players need to feel like the hero of the story. When you take that away from them, the game is going to feel less exciting – thus the “identity change.”

(and, to anticipate the typical response – it has been taken away unless you are willing to compromise how you enjoy playing – basically the core identity of your character)

And yet, it has been proven that it is not as mathematical as you make it out to be, see people low-manning or running in Green gear. Yes, they have mastered the mechanics of the raid, as well as their class, that is the point. You are intended to master your class and the mechanics of the raid, to beat it.

Are you suggesting people shouldn’t have to master their class (however they choose to play it) and master the mechanics?

It is mathematical, its just that the required minimum numbers arent as high as some believe.

Thank you, this was a better way of phrasing what I was attempting to get across. There is still math, but the required numbers are lower than people believe.

This is a fair point.

That said, I think there is still a point where the math becomes untenable for many players – where it overshadows the experience of the game.

I realize that isnt the case for everyone – that many enjoy the calculator style play that is common with min maxing and raids.

But, it isn’t what we came to expect from GW2. It shifted the feel of the game and, while that is mainly limited to raids, it has a affect on the feel of the entire end game as players feel excluded unless they shift how they like to play. That, for me, is at the heart of the identify shift and is something I think they need to address.

Who says you need to enjoy calculator style play and min max to enjoy raids in this game?

Raids are easy enough in this game that they can already easily be enjoyed by most groups. Those that want to min-max to the teeth, down to the person that wants to play his tank Dragonhunter and protect his allies from harm. Both groups still have to understand the mechanics of the fight to pass, both have an equal chance of success. One group will probably clear the content faster than the other, but at the end of the day, does it matter how fast content is completed, if you are having fun?

Once again, you’re coming in with the perspective of someone who has, most likely, mastered the raids already. You put in the math (or more likely, copy/pasted a build from somewhere) – and now that you know the fights backwards and forwards, could do them on pretty much anything.

Im very glad the game gives you that opportunity. But, the idea that the experience is anywhere near that easy for someone coming in fresh with a build that is significantly outside of the meta – that isn’t as supported by the math – simply doesnt hold up when put to the test in game.

I strongly encourage anyone feeling differently to put that to the test in game. Take the character you most enjoy and just see how you are treated by pugs for one week – or, alternatively, pull together a group of like minded individuals and see how the raids feel. I think most of us already know how that will work out for 9/10 players.

Blaeys.3102:

Once again, you’re coming in with the perspective of someone who has, most likely, mastered the raids already. You put in the math (or more likely, copy/pasted a build from somewhere) – and now that you know the fights backwards and forwards, could do them on pretty much anything.

Or rather, I hopped on my necro, joined a pug, killed VG and Gors, and went from there? You are assuming I put in math and did a copy/paste on build. I didn’t. Yes I know the fights backwards and forwards, which means that I can probably bring any build that I want. It is unreasonable to expect people to not get better at the content and their class, in order to pass it.

Blaeys.3102:

Im very glad the game gives you that opportunity. But, the idea that the experience is anywhere near that easy for someone coming in fresh with a build that is significantly outside of the meta – that isn’t as supported by the math – simply doesnt hold up when put to the test in game.

No one is suggesting that you can go in with no knowledge of the fights and no knowledge of your class, and have it be easy. We are saying that if the effort is put in, it will be easier than they are making it out to be. And no, not everyone is saying that they should go run a meta build. Will a meta build make things easier to learn and pick up, most likely. But if you don’t have fun with that build, you can literally take any other build and succeed, you just have to learn, and that is not unreasonable to ask for or expect.

Blaeys.3102:

I strongly encourage anyone feeling differently to put that to the test in game. Take the character you most enjoy and just see how you are treated by pugs for one week – or, alternatively, pull together a group of like minded individuals and see how the raids feel. I think most of us already know how that will work out for 9/10 players.

Raids by themselves were never designed to cater to pugs, they were designed to cater to coordinated groups who wanted a challenge.

You have a lot of arguments for why easy mode should be implemented, and almost every single one of them already has an in-game solution and counter-argument. The one thing that the game does not have a solution for, is poor attitude (the I can’ts of the world), and it shouldn’t.

Devata.6589:

However that did not really worked out as planned and it turned in to full DPS. What they fixed in raids.

If anything, raids enshrined the “max dps” approach, not weakened it. Yes, you use roles that aren’t dps based, but there’s not only no incentive to go beyond that required minimum – quite the opposite, you are strongly penalized for doing that. Something that simply wasn’t true in group instanced encounters until raids appeared.

Astralporing.1957:

Devata.6589:

However that did not really worked out as planned and it turned in to full DPS. What they fixed in raids.

If anything, raids enshrined the “max dps” approach, not weakened it. Yes, you use roles that aren’t dps based, but there’s not only no incentive to go beyond that required minimum – quite the opposite, you are strongly penalized for doing that. Something that simply wasn’t true in group instanced encounters until raids appeared.

That isn’t something that can be fixed. Maximizing DPS is the optimal way to do any content where your objective has a numerical health pool. It’s why even in games like Battlefield you still see people talking about DPS.

The fact of the matter is that the optimal way to do every piece of content in every single game ever is to take the minimum required amount of sustain and put everything else into DPS.

Blaeys.3102:

Im very glad the game gives you that opportunity. But, the idea that the experience is anywhere near that easy for someone coming in fresh with a build that is significantly outside of the meta – that isn’t as supported by the math – simply doesnt hold up when put to the test in game.

I strongly encourage anyone feeling differently to put that to the test in game. Take the character you most enjoy and just see how you are treated by pugs for one week – or, alternatively, pull together a group of like minded individuals and see how the raids feel. I think most of us already know how that will work out for 9/10 players.

That is actually false – well for the most part.
If your objective is to learn raids – your build is not that important. The important part is learning the mechanics. If you and every memeber of the group knows the mechanics very good – the build is just secondary. You will run into the enrage timer probably but if you are really good at the mechanics youll find a way to still do it.

Its true that pugs won’t be patient with you if you don’t run meta. But pugging isnt the best way to learn raids. Better join a training guild or raiding guild

OniGiri.9461:

Blaeys.3102:

Im very glad the game gives you that opportunity. But, the idea that the experience is anywhere near that easy for someone coming in fresh with a build that is significantly outside of the meta – that isn’t as supported by the math – simply doesnt hold up when put to the test in game.

I strongly encourage anyone feeling differently to put that to the test in game. Take the character you most enjoy and just see how you are treated by pugs for one week – or, alternatively, pull together a group of like minded individuals and see how the raids feel. I think most of us already know how that will work out for 9/10 players.

That is actually false – well for the most part.
If your objective is to learn raids – your build is not that important. The important part is learning the mechanics. If you and every memeber of the group knows the mechanics very good – the build is just secondary. You will run into the enrage timer probably but if you are really good at the mechanics youll find a way to still do it.

Its true that pugs won’t be patient with you if you don’t run meta. But pugging isnt the best way to learn raids. Better join a training guild or raiding guild

In almost every case, the first thing “training” guilds do is push players toward meta builds – which is pretty much the opposite of the points we’re trying to make here. It’s about realistically (important word) opening the experience to more playstyles and builds.

This isnt about hard walls or extremes. It is about degrees and the point at which content is unnecessarily restrictive and creates a Stepford Wife syndrome in the game – one in which every player either plays to the mold or gets left behind.

I’ve played gw2 since it’s beta, I’ve taken a year hiatus. I dislike raids. I loved dungeons, there was this whole other world behind an instance. Yes, they became repetitive but that’s just how dungeons are. They can be changed with events, like Christmas for example: attacking snowmen/ snow trolls etc. add humor to it. Halloween, as Ascalonian ghosts, fire imps. Holiday events doesn’t just have to be stuck to one human city in a tiny district in an even smaller neighborhood. You reading this Anet devs? I had a guild of 140 people who loved dungeons, these 140 people no longer get on. They’re all in my friends lists and we were like a family and loved helping others. I remember the first day, playing an elementalist and really getting into my character. I felt like I was actually helping the townsfolk, waving my scepter and fighting bees. Now it’s washed out. You saw players who’s characters looked like knights, sorcerers & hunters. Now you get rainbow winged clowns with magical effects. PvP feels unbalanced and is highly toxic. It feels like that’s where the focus has shifted, to a toxic community. With HoT, it was a definite change, I loved the newness of it but it came abit too late for most people. GW2 is now like a jack of all trades but a master of none.

Blaeys.3102:

OniGiri.9461:

Blaeys.3102:

Im very glad the game gives you that opportunity. But, the idea that the experience is anywhere near that easy for someone coming in fresh with a build that is significantly outside of the meta – that isn’t as supported by the math – simply doesnt hold up when put to the test in game.

I strongly encourage anyone feeling differently to put that to the test in game. Take the character you most enjoy and just see how you are treated by pugs for one week – or, alternatively, pull together a group of like minded individuals and see how the raids feel. I think most of us already know how that will work out for 9/10 players.

That is actually false – well for the most part.
If your objective is to learn raids – your build is not that important. The important part is learning the mechanics. If you and every memeber of the group knows the mechanics very good – the build is just secondary. You will run into the enrage timer probably but if you are really good at the mechanics youll find a way to still do it.

Its true that pugs won’t be patient with you if you don’t run meta. But pugging isnt the best way to learn raids. Better join a training guild or raiding guild

In almost every case, the first thing “training” guilds do is push players toward meta builds – which is pretty much the opposite of the points we’re trying to make here. It’s about realistically (important word) opening the experience to more playstyles and builds.

This isnt about hard walls or extremes. It is about degrees and the point at which content is unnecessarily restrictive and creates a Stepford Wife syndrome in the game – one in which every player either plays to the mold or gets left behind.

So, if someone doesn’t think training guilds should push new players towards meta builds, why don’t they join a training guild that doesn’t? If they are unable to find one, why not create one? Those are all solutions the issues you listed, that already exist in the game.

Again, the “problems” you list, already have solutions in game. If that is too much for someone to ask, then yes, it is acceptable for them to be left out (because again, them being left out is entirely on them, not the game).

People really need to stop looking for something to blame and start taking responsibility for their own actions.

Back at the days when GW2 was still in betatest phase, it was advertised (of course among many other words) as a “Game of Freedom”. Freedom to do what you want, freedom to walk where you want, freedom to change your armor style/colors etc. Now, more and more aspects of the game are either time-gated (i.e. crafting) or locked behind elite content (i.e. legendary armor from Raids). But thats not the main change. The worst change is that more and more things are NON-tradeable (account-bound or even soul-bound). This is a huge loss for the game freedom and enjoyment.

A game where you cannot trade half of your inventory is not “Game of Freedom” anymore.

elrin.4750:

I’m a new player, don’t have an 80 yet. Reading the forums and reddit it seems HoT is ‘L2P or GTFO’.

Still enjoying the core game, but not looking forward to HoT.

It’s not as disastrous as people claim it to be. Fractals are a very fun way to play 5-man content at max level, and raids are there for those that want to pursue it. The game is so lax’ed in design that I think it’s humorous people would suggest that this game’s community has become like every other MMO’s.

The beautiful part that most forget is that nothing in Guild Wars 2 is mandatory. Achieve what you want to set out to achieve, skip whatever you dislike. Be free.

Crinn.7864:

Astralporing.1957:

Devata.6589:

However that did not really worked out as planned and it turned in to full DPS. What they fixed in raids.

If anything, raids enshrined the “max dps” approach, not weakened it. Yes, you use roles that aren’t dps based, but there’s not only no incentive to go beyond that required minimum – quite the opposite, you are strongly penalized for doing that. Something that simply wasn’t true in group instanced encounters until raids appeared.

That isn’t something that can be fixed. Maximizing DPS is the optimal way to do any content where your objective has a numerical health pool. It’s why even in games like Battlefield you still see people talking about DPS.

The fact of the matter is that the optimal way to do every piece of content in every single game ever is to take the minimum required amount of sustain and put everything else into DPS.

No. Maximizing DPS being the “optimal way” was how it worked for dungeons and fractals. In the case of raids however, going non-optimal does not mean that the fight will get longer. It means that it gets progressively harder (and in some cases just plain impossible).
Thus, raids not only not fixed the “max dps” approach, but enforced it with actual mechanics.

Fatalyz.7168:

So, if someone doesn’t think training guilds should push new players towards meta builds, why don’t they join a training guild that doesn’t?

Because those are not succesful.
It’s not the guilds that push the players towards those builds. It’s the game itself that does.

Astralporing.1957:

Crinn.7864:

Astralporing.1957:

Devata.6589:

However that did not really worked out as planned and it turned in to full DPS. What they fixed in raids.

If anything, raids enshrined the “max dps” approach, not weakened it. Yes, you use roles that aren’t dps based, but there’s not only no incentive to go beyond that required minimum – quite the opposite, you are strongly penalized for doing that. Something that simply wasn’t true in group instanced encounters until raids appeared.

That isn’t something that can be fixed. Maximizing DPS is the optimal way to do any content where your objective has a numerical health pool. It’s why even in games like Battlefield you still see people talking about DPS.

The fact of the matter is that the optimal way to do every piece of content in every single game ever is to take the minimum required amount of sustain and put everything else into DPS.

No. Maximizing DPS being the “optimal way” was how it worked for dungeons and fractals. In the case of raids however, going non-optimal does not mean that the fight will get longer. It means that it gets progressively harder (and in some cases just plain impossible).
Thus, raids not only not fixed the “max dps” approach, but enforced it with actual mechanics.

You seem to misunderstand. There are two reasons why maximizing dps is the sole optimal in all content that ever existed.

1) Time is a commodity is that is universally valued by all players. Nobody wants to spend any more time on a fight than is necessary. This is why zerker gear is the goto for open world players and not just raiders.
Now many players do start out valuing their tankiness over their deeps, but you’ll find that most players regardless of casual open worlder or hardcore raider will tend towards methods that decrease their time investment as they become more experienced in the game.

2) Math. Any fight where damage is being dealt to you, you will take less (and have less chance of dying) the faster the source of damage is removed. Now you could just make defensives mechanics overscale to where they are better, but then we get back to rule 1 about Time being valuable.

Astralporing.1957:

Yes, you use roles that aren’t dps based, but there’s not only no incentive to go beyond that required minimum – quite the opposite, you are strongly penalized for doing that. Something that simply wasn’t true in group instanced encounters until raids appeared.

Also as per rule 2 all fights get harder the longer they go on. That’s not specific to raids. It’s also why mmorpgs as a whole are trending towards shorter encounter times, since developers have realized that fatigue is a real thing.

Astralporing.1957:

No. Maximizing DPS being the “optimal way” was how it worked for dungeons and fractals. In the case of raids however, going non-optimal does not mean that the fight will get longer. It means that it gets progressively harder (and in some cases just plain impossible).
Thus, raids not only not fixed the “max dps” approach, but enforced it with actual mechanics.

Being able to ignore every mechanic and challenging content doesn’t go well together. Either you force players to do mechanics or they will just ignore them because they are ‘tendious’.
DPS makes every boss easier, as mechanics appear less often or can be ignored like the ventilators at the golem in uncategorized fractal.
There is only raidboss that scales with time, KC. All other bosses remain the same during the respective phase.

Because those are not succesful.
It’s not the guilds that push the players towards those builds. It’s the game itself that does.

Raids have been cleared in green equipment. There is enough room to take some defensive equipment/traits with you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9CKhI_g7ng
But I doubt you will find PUGs that will do this with you. You can clear the entire wing in the same time.

Crinn.7864:

1) Time is a commodity is that is universally valued by all players. Nobody wants to spend any more time on a fight than is necessary. This is why zerker gear is the goto for open world players and not just raiders.

Rubbish. My time in the game is time I already gave up on. If I want to use it “efficiently” I wouldn’t be spending it on light entertainment. Time I spend on gaming only needs to meet 1 criterion for me to consider it well-spent: it needs to be time spent enjoying myself. Shaving seconds off of fights doesn’t even rank in what I find enjoyable.

Blaeys.3102:

In almost every case, the first thing “training” guilds do is push players toward meta builds – which is pretty much the opposite of the points we’re trying to make here. It’s about realistically (important word) opening the experience to more playstyles and builds.

This isnt about hard walls or extremes. It is about degrees and the point at which content is unnecessarily restrictive and creates a Stepford Wife syndrome in the game – one in which every player either plays to the mold or gets left behind.

This hung up about changing your gear and build because of raids seems so fake to me.

I’m a warrior main.
When i started doing dungeons back in the day i had to change my gear and playstyle to zerker so i could pull my weight in the encounter and be able to join more pug groups.

When i started doing fractals about 2,5 years ago i had to change my build and utilities to phalanx strength so i could be as usefull as possible in the encounter and be able to join more pug groups.

Its no different with raids. This is truely no argument for an identity change for guild wars 2.

Maybe the time has come to close this thread. We are at the point were its exlusivly a thread complaining about “why i don’t like guild wars 2 raids”.

OniGiri.9461:

Blaeys.3102:

In almost every case, the first thing “training” guilds do is push players toward meta builds – which is pretty much the opposite of the points we’re trying to make here. It’s about realistically (important word) opening the experience to more playstyles and builds.

This isnt about hard walls or extremes. It is about degrees and the point at which content is unnecessarily restrictive and creates a Stepford Wife syndrome in the game – one in which every player either plays to the mold or gets left behind.

This hung up about changing your gear and build because of raids seems so fake to me.

I’m a warrior main.
When i started doing dungeons back in the day i had to change my gear and playstyle to zerker so i could pull my weight in the encounter and be able to join more pug groups.

When i started doing fractals about 2,5 years ago i had to change my build and utilities to phalanx strength so i could be as usefull as possible in the encounter and be able to join more pug groups.

Its no different with raids. This is truely no argument for an identity change for guild wars 2.

Maybe the time has come to close this thread. We are at the point were its exlusivly a thread complaining about “why i don’t like guild wars 2 raids”.

It’s different with raids, because dungeons never had an enrage timer. That’s what makes the entire situation different.

Could I beat a dungeon with an entire team of people in soldier’s gear? Sure I can. Because it doesn’t matter if I take longer. It’s fine. There’s nothing wrong with it.

I run a super casual guild and we run dungeons for years including Arah. When people were killing lupi in a minute, it took us ten. Didn’t matter. We could spend as much time as we wanted. We weren’t hurting anyone. We were having fun.

The enrage timer changes all that. You have to do more DPS so you have to have enough people with the right builds. It means vetting people in my guild. Telling them they have to play a different way.

You say it’s not different from dungeons, but it is, because it was possible to beat dungeons without changing builds. That’s not always the case for raids.

Astralporing.1957:

Fatalyz.7168:

So, if someone doesn’t think training guilds should push new players towards meta builds, why don’t they join a training guild that doesn’t?

Because those are not succesful.
It’s not the guilds that push the players towards those builds. It’s the game itself that does.

If they are not successful, then they need to work on mechanics (depending on fight, some fights do have hard time limits, but those are generally pretty lenient on dps requirements to begin with).

Yes, Raids are easier with an optimal comp, but not impossible, you just may have to practice more. If you failed with a sub-optimal comp, it is more likely that mechanics were failed than anything else.