Guild Wars 2

Ravenmoon.5318:

Ansau.7326:

@ravenmoon That was a UI bug fixed in a very recent patch, it’s not a valid point to argue about performance issues, as the problem has only existed for a few days in the whole game history, and it was a bug.
About the cpu, there’re 2 things why 2500k struggles a little bit. First is single core performance, haswell has ~13% more power, and second is pcie speed, which gw2 really takes advantage of it (z77 is limited to 2.0 x16).

And why people keep mixing things? This goes for you Scoobaneic.
Just because a frog is an amphibious doesn’t mean a horse is able to breath in the water.
The same happens to game engines. Just because a single player non-online game has acces to it’s code (so people can make mods, adapt it to newer apis…), doesn’t mean a mmo game, like gw2, can.
If you want to make a point, tell me which mmo have open code,so people can play with it…

Its still active. Just popup full inventory and let me know if you get any FPS hits.
Also, I’m playing every other MMO on ultra graphics with my machine at 60+ fps
Battlefield and Dragon Age: Inquisition go with more than 120 fps.

Don’t compare my CPU to stock clock Haswell please. With turbo boost it goes even further than 4.5GHz. The liquid cooling keeps the thermals low.

Also, there is no consumer GPU available today that can max out PCIe 2.0 x16, even though they make them PCIe 3.0. I made the research before sinking $500 for R9 290X. It is not being bottlenecked by my chipset. There’s no difference in 290X running on 3.0 or 2.0.

Again, WoW is using proprietary engine. They’ve updated their renderer. It didn’t const them an arm and a leg.

Either way, in long term, old renderer is only going to cost them more. You know, taking their time to optimize stuff, it adds up to cost. I can’t begin to fathom how many iterations of HoT maps they’ve done before they had something that gives decent FPS. And that costs time, and time is money.

Regardless, adding another rendering pipeline would greatly benefit the game IMO. Many people agree with me. If they write abstract code, it should be easy for them to at least get Dx 11 running. Which does have multi-threaded renderer setting. Which would greatly benefit the more powerful machines.

If people get only 15 fps improvement, it will be wort it. The difference from 25 to 40 fps is HUGE and quite noticeable.

P.S: There is a time in programming where you just have to bite the bullet and upgrade your tech. Because maintaining old tech, more often than not, gets more expensive as the time goes.

This guy took the words right out of my mouth, GW2 would definately benefit from a 64 bit client and obviously modern API i can’t count how many times ive tried to get the dev’s attention about this but its about time people started saying somthing we’re not in the late 90’s anymore kids windows xp is no longer and anyone who games on xp should be shot and kittened on because of their own stupidity. it isnt an excuse anymore guys.

Exiled Dbl.9035:

Ravenmoon.5318:

Ansau.7326:

@ravenmoon That was a UI bug fixed in a very recent patch, it’s not a valid point to argue about performance issues, as the problem has only existed for a few days in the whole game history, and it was a bug.
About the cpu, there’re 2 things why 2500k struggles a little bit. First is single core performance, haswell has ~13% more power, and second is pcie speed, which gw2 really takes advantage of it (z77 is limited to 2.0 x16).

And why people keep mixing things? This goes for you Scoobaneic.
Just because a frog is an amphibious doesn’t mean a horse is able to breath in the water.
The same happens to game engines. Just because a single player non-online game has acces to it’s code (so people can make mods, adapt it to newer apis…), doesn’t mean a mmo game, like gw2, can.
If you want to make a point, tell me which mmo have open code,so people can play with it…

Its still active. Just popup full inventory and let me know if you get any FPS hits.
Also, I’m playing every other MMO on ultra graphics with my machine at 60+ fps
Battlefield and Dragon Age: Inquisition go with more than 120 fps.

Don’t compare my CPU to stock clock Haswell please. With turbo boost it goes even further than 4.5GHz. The liquid cooling keeps the thermals low.

Also, there is no consumer GPU available today that can max out PCIe 2.0 x16, even though they make them PCIe 3.0. I made the research before sinking $500 for R9 290X. It is not being bottlenecked by my chipset. There’s no difference in 290X running on 3.0 or 2.0.

Again, WoW is using proprietary engine. They’ve updated their renderer. It didn’t const them an arm and a leg.

Either way, in long term, old renderer is only going to cost them more. You know, taking their time to optimize stuff, it adds up to cost. I can’t begin to fathom how many iterations of HoT maps they’ve done before they had something that gives decent FPS. And that costs time, and time is money.

Regardless, adding another rendering pipeline would greatly benefit the game IMO. Many people agree with me. If they write abstract code, it should be easy for them to at least get Dx 11 running. Which does have multi-threaded renderer setting. Which would greatly benefit the more powerful machines.

If people get only 15 fps improvement, it will be wort it. The difference from 25 to 40 fps is HUGE and quite noticeable.

P.S: There is a time in programming where you just have to bite the bullet and upgrade your tech. Because maintaining old tech, more often than not, gets more expensive as the time goes.

This guy took the words right out of my mouth, GW2 would definately benefit from a 64 bit client and obviously modern API i can’t count how many times ive tried to get the dev’s attention about this but its about time people started sayhing somthing we’re not in the late 90’s anymore kids windows xp is no longer and anyone who games on xp should be shot and kittened on because of their own stupidity. it isnt an excuse anymore guys.

Im using windows 7 im not going to spend 300$ to upgrade because they no longer support backwards compability also windows xp is my second favourite OS.
I dont know why this is such a big deal either i were running directx 11 in archeage but i coulden’t see any difference at all and people were experiencing memory leaks so most people were using standard dx9c anyway.

tom.7468:

Exiled Dbl.9035:

Ravenmoon.5318:

Ansau.7326:

@ravenmoon That was a UI bug fixed in a very recent patch, it’s not a valid point to argue about performance issues, as the problem has only existed for a few days in the whole game history, and it was a bug.
About the cpu, there’re 2 things why 2500k struggles a little bit. First is single core performance, haswell has ~13% more power, and second is pcie speed, which gw2 really takes advantage of it (z77 is limited to 2.0 x16).

And why people keep mixing things? This goes for you Scoobaneic.
Just because a frog is an amphibious doesn’t mean a horse is able to breath in the water.
The same happens to game engines. Just because a single player non-online game has acces to it’s code (so people can make mods, adapt it to newer apis…), doesn’t mean a mmo game, like gw2, can.
If you want to make a point, tell me which mmo have open code,so people can play with it…

Its still active. Just popup full inventory and let me know if you get any FPS hits.
Also, I’m playing every other MMO on ultra graphics with my machine at 60+ fps
Battlefield and Dragon Age: Inquisition go with more than 120 fps.

Don’t compare my CPU to stock clock Haswell please. With turbo boost it goes even further than 4.5GHz. The liquid cooling keeps the thermals low.

Also, there is no consumer GPU available today that can max out PCIe 2.0 x16, even though they make them PCIe 3.0. I made the research before sinking $500 for R9 290X. It is not being bottlenecked by my chipset. There’s no difference in 290X running on 3.0 or 2.0.

Again, WoW is using proprietary engine. They’ve updated their renderer. It didn’t const them an arm and a leg.

Either way, in long term, old renderer is only going to cost them more. You know, taking their time to optimize stuff, it adds up to cost. I can’t begin to fathom how many iterations of HoT maps they’ve done before they had something that gives decent FPS. And that costs time, and time is money.

Regardless, adding another rendering pipeline would greatly benefit the game IMO. Many people agree with me. If they write abstract code, it should be easy for them to at least get Dx 11 running. Which does have multi-threaded renderer setting. Which would greatly benefit the more powerful machines.

If people get only 15 fps improvement, it will be wort it. The difference from 25 to 40 fps is HUGE and quite noticeable.

P.S: There is a time in programming where you just have to bite the bullet and upgrade your tech. Because maintaining old tech, more often than not, gets more expensive as the time goes.

This guy took the words right out of my mouth, GW2 would definately benefit from a 64 bit client and obviously modern API i can’t count how many times ive tried to get the dev’s attention about this but its about time people started sayhing somthing we’re not in the late 90’s anymore kids windows xp is no longer and anyone who games on xp should be shot and kittened on because of their own stupidity. it isnt an excuse anymore guys.

Im using windows 7 im not going to spend 300$ to upgrade because they no longer support backwards compability also windows xp is my second favourite OS.
I dont know why this is such a big deal either i were running directx 11 in archeage but i coulden’t see any difference at all and people were experiencing memory leaks so most people were using standard dx9c anyway.

I played Archeage since beta and for almost a year after with my SLI 760’s on DX 11 and a oc’ed and delidded 3570k 4.5Ghz and the difference between it and gw2 as far as fps drops and big events was like night and day stop support lazy dev’s that can not and will not take the time to update the engine you guys make it out to seem like its to exspensive and to time consuming yet people this thread have shown you MANY examples of other games old or new that have done this without issues and it didnt cost them an arm and a leg.

Exiled Dbl.9035:

tom.7468:

Exiled Dbl.9035:

Ravenmoon.5318:

Ansau.7326:

@ravenmoon That was a UI bug fixed in a very recent patch, it’s not a valid point to argue about performance issues, as the problem has only existed for a few days in the whole game history, and it was a bug.
About the cpu, there’re 2 things why 2500k struggles a little bit. First is single core performance, haswell has ~13% more power, and second is pcie speed, which gw2 really takes advantage of it (z77 is limited to 2.0 x16).

And why people keep mixing things? This goes for you Scoobaneic.
Just because a frog is an amphibious doesn’t mean a horse is able to breath in the water.
The same happens to game engines. Just because a single player non-online game has acces to it’s code (so people can make mods, adapt it to newer apis…), doesn’t mean a mmo game, like gw2, can.
If you want to make a point, tell me which mmo have open code,so people can play with it…

Its still active. Just popup full inventory and let me know if you get any FPS hits.
Also, I’m playing every other MMO on ultra graphics with my machine at 60+ fps
Battlefield and Dragon Age: Inquisition go with more than 120 fps.

Don’t compare my CPU to stock clock Haswell please. With turbo boost it goes even further than 4.5GHz. The liquid cooling keeps the thermals low.

Also, there is no consumer GPU available today that can max out PCIe 2.0 x16, even though they make them PCIe 3.0. I made the research before sinking $500 for R9 290X. It is not being bottlenecked by my chipset. There’s no difference in 290X running on 3.0 or 2.0.

Again, WoW is using proprietary engine. They’ve updated their renderer. It didn’t const them an arm and a leg.

Either way, in long term, old renderer is only going to cost them more. You know, taking their time to optimize stuff, it adds up to cost. I can’t begin to fathom how many iterations of HoT maps they’ve done before they had something that gives decent FPS. And that costs time, and time is money.

Regardless, adding another rendering pipeline would greatly benefit the game IMO. Many people agree with me. If they write abstract code, it should be easy for them to at least get Dx 11 running. Which does have multi-threaded renderer setting. Which would greatly benefit the more powerful machines.

If people get only 15 fps improvement, it will be wort it. The difference from 25 to 40 fps is HUGE and quite noticeable.

P.S: There is a time in programming where you just have to bite the bullet and upgrade your tech. Because maintaining old tech, more often than not, gets more expensive as the time goes.

This guy took the words right out of my mouth, GW2 would definately benefit from a 64 bit client and obviously modern API i can’t count how many times ive tried to get the dev’s attention about this but its about time people started sayhing somthing we’re not in the late 90’s anymore kids windows xp is no longer and anyone who games on xp should be shot and kittened on because of their own stupidity. it isnt an excuse anymore guys.

Im using windows 7 im not going to spend 300$ to upgrade because they no longer support backwards compability also windows xp is my second favourite OS.
I dont know why this is such a big deal either i were running directx 11 in archeage but i coulden’t see any difference at all and people were experiencing memory leaks so most people were using standard dx9c anyway.

I played Archeage since beta and for almost a year after with my SLI 760’s on DX 11 and a oc’ed and delidded 3570k 4.5Ghz and the difference between it and gw2 as far as fps drops and big events was like night and day stop support lazy dev’s that can not and will not take the time to update the engine you guys make it out to seem like its to exspensive and to time consuming yet people this thread have shown you MANY examples of other games old or new that have done this without issues and it didnt cost them an arm and a leg.

It cost money to buy the new OS and it takes time to get used to it
and setup you’re system. Im not going to do that just to play gw2.

I wouldn’t go as far as claiming that Gw2 devs are lazy. That’s far from the truth. If anything they are understaffed. Gw2 is one of the major MMOs today, while having a rather smaller dev team compared to other AAA games. Gw2 is an AAA game. And the optimizations they’ve pulled on Gw2 is amazing. I respect them for that. But they are hitting the limit. You can only optimize so much without graphics vendors fixing their drivers for you…

@tom – Win10 will be free to all windows 7 users o.O

@Ravenmoon I don’t have the problem, maybe you have fps issues and that’s why you have such a bad experience, but that doesn’t mean the game runs really crappy.
Also, I was talking performance at same speeds. Your 2500k at 4.5GHz is like a 4690k at 3.8GHz.
And about the rest, that shows how little you know about improving fps. Yes, pcie speed increases fps (tested). Yes, ram speed increases fps (tested). Yes, some graphic options have massive cpu load with minimum graphic increase.

If I have time this Easter I’ll do some tests in my desktop about all this kind of things.

I think this game would be a FANTASTIC candidate for DX12, knowing what we know so far.

GW2 is a game that seems to get severely bottlenecked by DX9.

However, we can’t say with any certainty whether Anet will commit. It can be a really daunting thing to work in a big upgrade, and we have no idea how it would effect them or their codebase.

lordkrall.7241:

Still doesn’t answer how much you are willing to pay for all the work required to get DirectX 12 available for GW2.

No matter how much you try to twist and turn it, it will be a rather massive cost and it will take rather large amount of time and they will need to hire more people.

Never gonna happen,,more likely a GW3 will be running on Dx12..if ever.

Caedmon.6798:

lordkrall.7241:

Still doesn’t answer how much you are willing to pay for all the work required to get DirectX 12 available for GW2.

No matter how much you try to twist and turn it, it will be a rather massive cost and it will take rather large amount of time and they will need to hire more people.

Never gonna happen,,more likely a GW3 will be running on Dx12..if ever.

Oh, I am fully aware that it is extremely unlikely, but the OP kept talking about being prepared to pay good money for it, so I questioned how much he would actually be willing to pay.

Arenanet needs to take engine creation classes from CryTek Team, and of course the CryEngine itself. You wanna talk optimized and modern API and taking every edge of performance a high end pc can dish out and that engine will take it and run like glass. It’s a Beautiful thing

firstly, let me say that the reason why it already took me a long time to go from XP to WIN7 is because i hate the whole “let’s change everything and restrict access” crap.
also, as long as any of the newer wins are made for tablets and NOT for the PC it’s a no go, keep your android on the phone, i want an actual windows OS.(and one that doesn’t use up over 2GB RAM space, win XP only used 450-500MB including my own programs in the background)

secondly, DX isn’t something you can just put in the game overnight, it’s an integrated system specifically made for the engine.
if an engine is based on 1 certain DX, making it compatible for a newer version means they need to completely rewrite the core of the engine.
if you have a car engine and there is a different engine with better performance, the only way to improve the car is to completely remove the old engine and place the new and improved one, you can’t just put parts of the new engine an the old one because it simply doesn’t fit.
it works exactly the same way in game engines, an engine build around DX9 can only handle DX9, anything newer doesn’t work.

sorudo.9054:

firstly, let me say that the reason why it already took me a long time to go from XP to WIN7 is because i hate the whole “let’s change everything and restrict access” crap.
also, as long as any of the newer wins are made for tablets and NOT for the PC it’s a no go, keep your android on the phone, i want an actual windows OS.(and one that doesn’t use up over 2GB RAM space, win XP only used 450-500MB including my own programs in the background)

secondly, DX isn’t something you can just put in the game overnight, it’s an integrated system specifically made for the engine.
if an engine is based on 1 certain DX, making it compatible for a newer version means they need to completely rewrite the core of the engine.
if you have a car engine and there is a different engine with better performance, the only way to improve the car is to completely remove the old engine and place the new and improved one, you can’t just put parts of the new engine an the old one because it simply doesn’t fit.
it works exactly the same way in game engines, an engine build around DX9 can only handle DX9, anything newer doesn’t work.

LOL coming from somone who works on Old Muscle cars with his Dad and is very well Mechanically Inclined i will inform you an engine swap can be done in a weekend you make it sound like its a Year long job LMFAO. also its not the same thing.

I have a friend who around 6 year ago was working as programmer for small game developer. They were using really old engine which was still using DirectX 7 and was told by his lead to take a look at DirectX 9 documentation and see if it’s possible to add it to engine.

He alone was able to add DirectX 9 render to this engine in less than 6 months time.

Engine != renderer guys. Engines can support more than one render without major changes to engine itself. I’m working for quite big game studio (not as big as Arena) and our in-home made engine supports: DirectX9, 11 and OpenGL, PS3, PS4, Xbox360, Xbox One and WiiU and I’m pretty sure that render team is already looking into DX12.

Chimera.8263:

I have a friend who around 6 year ago was working as programmer for small game developer. They were using really old engine which was still using DirectX 7 and was told by his lead to take a look at DirectX 9 documentation and see if it’s possible to add it to engine.

He alone was able to add DirectX 9 render to this engine in less than 6 months time.

Engine != renderer guys. Engines can support more than one render without major changes to engine itself. I’m working for quite big game studio (not as big as Arena) and our in-home made engine supports: DirectX9, 11 and OpenGL, PS3, PS4, Xbox360, Xbox One and WiiU and I’m pretty sure that render team is already looking into DX12.

We aren’t disagreeing that you can add another render path.

Also you need to realize that Dx7 to Dx9, both single thread restricted APIs isn’t as great of a change as altering the renderer to get the most out of Dx11/12. A major portion of performance gain from Dx9 to Dx11 is due to the thread safe nature of Dx11 which allows the renderer to be coded to scale with the number of cores available. The gains from Dx12 however comes from reducing the setup overhead needed to call the Dx3D API.

Ansau.7326:

@Ravenmoon I don’t have the problem, maybe you have fps issues and that’s why you have such a bad experience, but that doesn’t mean the game runs really crappy.
Also, I was talking performance at same speeds. Your 2500k at 4.5GHz is like a 4690k at 3.8GHz.
And about the rest, that shows how little you know about improving fps. Yes, pcie speed increases fps (tested). Yes, ram speed increases fps (tested). Yes, some graphic options have massive cpu load with minimum graphic increase.

If I have time this Easter I’ll do some tests in my desktop about all this kind of things.

I have i5 4690k overclocked to 4,6ghz and i experience fps drops for no reason and overall performance is bad. All maxed except shadows on medium, culling on lowest i still have troubles keeping this joke at 60 fps. So if you dont have any problems you must be running on minimal..

Haven’t said I run the game at 60 fps in zergs. Don’t know where you read that. Haswell oc isn’t able to do it, even oc skylake won’t probably be able…

Here is a test from myself. All information is into the description:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XSvcnLcmwI

You can see the only the last battle is where I struggled a lot, but the rest it was quite quite smooth.

Scoobaniec.9561:

Ansau.7326:

@Ravenmoon I don’t have the problem, maybe you have fps issues and that’s why you have such a bad experience, but that doesn’t mean the game runs really crappy.
Also, I was talking performance at same speeds. Your 2500k at 4.5GHz is like a 4690k at 3.8GHz.
And about the rest, that shows how little you know about improving fps. Yes, pcie speed increases fps (tested). Yes, ram speed increases fps (tested). Yes, some graphic options have massive cpu load with minimum graphic increase.

If I have time this Easter I’ll do some tests in my desktop about all this kind of things.

I have i5 4690k overclocked to 4,6ghz and i experience fps drops for no reason and overall performance is bad. All maxed except shadows on medium, culling on lowest i still have troubles keeping this joke at 60% fps. So if you dont have any problems you must be running on minimal..

with DX9 you are more often then not (does not apply to all games), going to run the game better on a OC’d dual or quad core then a 6-8 core that is twice as powerful. Reason is that DX9 doesn’t allow for usage of more then 4 cores (it can with tinkering, it just does it insanely poorly)

Ansau.7326:

@Ravenmoon I don’t have the problem, maybe you have fps issues and that’s why you have such a bad experience, but that doesn’t mean the game runs really crappy.
Also, I was talking performance at same speeds. Your 2500k at 4.5GHz is like a 4690k at 3.8GHz.
And about the rest, that shows how little you know about improving fps. Yes, pcie speed increases fps (tested). Yes, ram speed increases fps (tested). Yes, some graphic options have massive cpu load with minimum graphic increase.

If I have time this Easter I’ll do some tests in my desktop about all this kind of things.

This post shows how little you know about hardware and how much you are willing to spent over marketing.

Newsflash, there is NO difference between dual/quad channel ram running at 1600MHz or 2133MHz in DDR3. Infact, 2133 has higher latency. Google what that means, or if you are too lazy, check out the benchmark made by linustechtips at youtube, not going to do it for you. Faster ram means jack kitten in gaming. Period. If anything it can slow you down.

There is virtually NO difference between PCIe 2.0 x16 and PCIe 3.0 x16 in gaming
http://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Impact-of-PCI-E-Speed-on-Gaming-Performance-518/#Conclusion

Got you a link that autoscrolls to the conclusion.

Now if you are done spreading bullkitten can we please continue the conversation without derailing.

Oh and changing a renderer does not mean rewriting the core of the game of whatever jokes you guys came up with. You all should buy this book and read it cover by cover

http://www.amazon.com/Engine-Architecture-Second-Jason-Gregory/dp/1466560010/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1427839661&sr=8-1&keywords=game+engine+architecture

The guys explains pretty well what an engine consists of and how hard it is to abstract the rendering calls. Voodoo i tell you.

P.S: The problem Gw2 is facing is that it can’t feed the GPU fast enough because its rendering through a single core. Certain thread locking occurs when the scenes get intense. Thus you start generate frames slower because your CPU can’t finish sending the previous frame buffer.

Exiled Dbl.9035:

sorudo.9054:

firstly, let me say that the reason why it already took me a long time to go from XP to WIN7 is because i hate the whole “let’s change everything and restrict access” crap.
also, as long as any of the newer wins are made for tablets and NOT for the PC it’s a no go, keep your android on the phone, i want an actual windows OS.(and one that doesn’t use up over 2GB RAM space, win XP only used 450-500MB including my own programs in the background)

secondly, DX isn’t something you can just put in the game overnight, it’s an integrated system specifically made for the engine.
if an engine is based on 1 certain DX, making it compatible for a newer version means they need to completely rewrite the core of the engine.
if you have a car engine and there is a different engine with better performance, the only way to improve the car is to completely remove the old engine and place the new and improved one, you can’t just put parts of the new engine an the old one because it simply doesn’t fit.
it works exactly the same way in game engines, an engine build around DX9 can only handle DX9, anything newer doesn’t work.

LOL coming from somone who works on Old Muscle cars with his Dad and is very well Mechanically Inclined i will inform you an engine swap can be done in a weekend you make it sound like its a Year long job LMFAO. also its not the same thing.

an engine swap in a car is done in a week because all the parts are universal, game engines are everything except universal.
you make it sound like you even have the slightest idea what i am talking about, i never said switching an engine takes a long time, i said it’s not possible to just slam 2 different engines in to one.
point<- …………………………………………………………………………… →you

Strangely, gw2 is no like other game.

Google can tell me whatever it wants. But I tested 1333 vs 2400 and there’s a difference. I tested x8 vs x16 and there’s a difference. And no other game has been able to put my cpu at 80ºC when OC.

Lets see if all you theory beats my real footage I will try to do.

Ravenmoon.5318:

Newsflash, there is NO difference between dual/quad channel ram running at 1600MHz or 2133MHz in DDR3. Infact, 2133 has higher latency. Google what that means, or if you are too lazy, check out the benchmark made by linustechtips at youtube, not going to do it for you. Faster ram means jack kitten in gaming. Period. If anything it can slow you down.

Oh, there’s a difference, just not a great enough difference to justify the cost of ultra high speed memory. Note that this is at a low resolution so the GPU doesn’t bind up. The later chart shows at a higher resolution that the bottle neck caused by the GPU virtually wipes any performance advantage of very high speed, very expensive memory. But remember, we aren’t GPU bound but CPU.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/memory/display/haswell-ddr3_7.html

DDR3-2133 may have a higher Cas cycle count but it’s also clocked faster. Cas divided by speed is a rule of thumb when comparing two sticks with both different Cas and clockspeed to get an idea which has lower latency. Otherwise with the same speed, lower Cas is better.

But as pointed out in this paragraph, it’s improvements in the whole memory subsystem from the memory controller though the various on chip caches that mask a great deal of latency.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/memory/display/haswell-ddr3_4.html#sect1

Haswell and Ivy Bridge run hot, its not the game. Gw2 is the only game that keeps my PC silent. ANY other game and its as if I’ve turned on a hairdryer. Not to mention the simple thermal paste they use under the lid, forcing people to delid their CPUs. Well at least the ones that need some extra heatroom for overclocking that is.

Googled it for you. Be thankful. The speed improves are relatives. Certain applications even get slower.

P.S: Thank you for derailing my thread with your uneducated answers. Most of you at least.

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=valve-lunarg-vulkan&num=1

There are your “millions of dollars”. Took Valve 4 months to port the whole kitten thing.
Education, i know its hard, but you have to do it.

P.S: Writing anything graphical under linux is pure hell, because of the drivers mess there is. These guys did it in 4 months.

P.S.S: And good guy Valve will release the whole thing as open source, once Vulkan launches. And I highly doubt Mantle/Dx will be that much different to write against. Valve did the heavy lifting that y’all have been afraid of.

P.S.S: Now that I think about it, praise Gaben really has his aim at Microsoft Windows and proprietary walled gardens :O

Look dude/dudette, this game looks FFing amazing as is; if you want to tweak the appearance then down load GemFX which puts the load on the Video Card (if you want the game to look like a Wooden potatoes video.).

Oldirtbeard.9834:

Look dude/dudette, this game looks FFing amazing as is; if you want to tweak the appearance then down load GemFX which puts the load on the Video Card (if you want the game to look like a Wooden potatoes video.).

This must be a troll post that doesnt udnerstand what discussion is all about. Unless youre trying to imply that GemFX will fix my fps issues due to poor dx9?

Ravenmoon.5318:

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=valve-lunarg-vulkan&num=1

There are your “millions of dollars”. Took Valve 4 months to port the whole kitten thing.
Education, i know its hard, but you have to do it.

P.S: Writing anything graphical under linux is pure hell, because of the drivers mess there is. These guys did it in 4 months.

P.S.S: And good guy Valve will release the whole thing as open source, once Vulkan launches. And I highly doubt Mantle/Dx will be that much different to write against. Valve did the heavy lifting that y’all have been afraid of.

P.S.S: Now that I think about it, praise Gaben really has his aim at Microsoft Windows and proprietary walled gardens :O

Note: You need to copy/paste the link, the forum’s redirector mangles the URL.

Valve.

The owners of Steam.

The creators of the cross platform Source Engine that they sell to 3rd parties. An engine already supports an OpenGL pipeline.

The company that Gabe Newell owns that made him a billionaire.

The company isn’t exactly paupers and since they sell their engine it’s important to keep up with their competitors in the game engine market.

Versus

ArenaNet, a company with less than 600 million in sales in it’s lifetime. Who doesn’t sell their home grown engine to anybody.

Nice attempt to equate the two companies there mate.

i see my post was deleted for no reason

It was confirmed that expansion will not get any dx 10,11,12 update so no need to buy a new video card. Source: video from press even at Anet office . Of course things are always subject to change.
it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2dBqAw7C3U at 7min 25 sec

If anet added dx12, gw2 would benefit 10 fold from the upgrade in many aspects the dx 12 has to offer. IMHO by not taking advantage of the newer tech is holding them back with what they can can do with the game as well performance since gw2 still has performance issues to date.

As for windows 10, Windows 10 on pirated versions won’t get you a valid license, MS misspoke http://www.neowin.net/news/upgrading-to-windows-10-on-pirated-versions-wont-get-you-a-valid-license

JediYoda.1275:

i see my post was deleted for no reason

It was confirmed that expansion will not get any dx 10,11,12 update so no need to buy a new video card. Source: video from press even at Anet office . Of course things are always subject to change.
it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2dBqAw7C3U at 7min 25 sec

If anet added dx12 gw2 benefit 10 fold from the upgrade in many aspects the dx 12 has to offer. IMHO by not taking advantage of the newer tech is holding them back with what they can can do with the game as well performance since gw2 still has performance issues to date.

As for windows 10, Windows 10 on pirated versions won’t get you a valid license, MS misspoke http://www.neowin.net/news/upgrading-to-windows-10-on-pirated-versions-wont-get-you-a-valid-license

Windows 10 will get pirated like 8 anyway, nothing to worry about at this point

Scoobaniec.9561:

JediYoda.1275:

i see my post was deleted for no reason

It was confirmed that expansion will not get any dx 10,11,12 update so no need to buy a new video card. Source: video from press even at Anet office . Of course things are always subject to change.
it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2dBqAw7C3U at 7min 25 sec

If anet added dx12 gw2 benefit 10 fold from the upgrade in many aspects the dx 12 has to offer. IMHO by not taking advantage of the newer tech is holding them back with what they can can do with the game as well performance since gw2 still has performance issues to date.

As for windows 10, Windows 10 on pirated versions won’t get you a valid license, MS misspoke http://www.neowin.net/news/upgrading-to-windows-10-on-pirated-versions-wont-get-you-a-valid-license

Windows 10 will get pirated like 8 anyway, nothing to worry about at this point

I’m aware of that, I was clarifying above post

Behellagh.1468:

Ravenmoon.5318:

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=valve-lunarg-vulkan&num=1

There are your “millions of dollars”. Took Valve 4 months to port the whole kitten thing.
Education, i know its hard, but you have to do it.

P.S: Writing anything graphical under linux is pure hell, because of the drivers mess there is. These guys did it in 4 months.

P.S.S: And good guy Valve will release the whole thing as open source, once Vulkan launches. And I highly doubt Mantle/Dx will be that much different to write against. Valve did the heavy lifting that y’all have been afraid of.

P.S.S: Now that I think about it, praise Gaben really has his aim at Microsoft Windows and proprietary walled gardens :O

Note: You need to copy/paste the link, the forum’s redirector mangles the URL.

Valve.

The owners of Steam.

The creators of the cross platform Source Engine that they sell to 3rd parties. An engine already supports an OpenGL pipeline.

The company that Gabe Newell owns that made him a billionaire.

The company isn’t exactly paupers and since they sell their engine it’s important to keep up with their competitors in the game engine market.

Versus

ArenaNet, a company with less than 600 million in sales in it’s lifetime. Who doesn’t sell their home grown engine to anybody.

Nice attempt to equate the two companies there mate.

one thing you may have missed is that, the work they just did to get this working will be released as open source.

P.S: If it wasn’t Steam, Valve would be dead. The Source engine is also – free. But even if it wasn’t, there aren’t many companies using it atm, outside of Valve. Mobile is dominated by Unity3D, AAA is dominated by UE/CryEngine/Frostbite/“Homebrew”

P.S: Source Engine didn’t have OpenGL rendering pipeline until Gaben decided they’ll push for linux through SteamOS. After that they ported most of their games.

Funfact: A game can be made without the use of a sophisticated multi-purpose graphics engine, you know, kinda like they used to do them in the 90s But hey, if swapping a renderer means rewriting the game to you guys, by all means, ignore this comment, we have nothing to talk about. I have nothing to talk about with you You clearly don’t see the difference.

The URL again: http://tinyurl.com/n6d2ndu

WoW managed to make the jump from DX9 to DX11 so I don’t know why GW2 can’t do the same, I gained 25fps when Blizzard updated their engine and client to 64bit. It would be a massive improvement to the game.

Doesn’t matter if Source 2 is free, ANet isn’t going to abandon their engine and move everything over to it. The work involved to do so certainly isn’t “free”. Plus while the engine is free for development, games developed with it must be tied to Steam.

OpenGL support in Source has been around for some time.

Titanfall is Steam. DOTA 2 is Steam. Not just old games or Valve games.

Also note that it’s not being back ported to the original Source engine, only the new Source 2 one.

Guild Wars 2 uses ANet’s own engine. An engine that uses a single threaded Dx9 rendering design. An engine based on the original Guild Wars engine. Adding additional rendering pipelines to support Dx11, Dx12, Mantle and Vulkan efficiently will require rewrites. Adding multithreaded renderer support requires a rewrite. If you want the advantages that these modern APIs provide, you will need a rewrite.

We aren’t talking about scripts in a game engine or adding in additional assets or writing a mod for an existing game but the under the hood, hidden from the content developer code that makes the game go. You have trivialized the work required like some middle manager or marketing lead with no coding experience.

Ravenmoon.5318:

About the money I would pay, is the same money for any other Dx 12 game out there. In the case of Gw2 though, I see myself going for collectors edition pricing. Because I love the game.

Here is the problem … perhaps you and many others would pay for a Dx12 upgrade but many others would not. That would mean you pay more for your DX12 upgrade than the ‘same’ money for other DX12 game out there. So, unless you have a real dollar amount you say you would be willing to pay, it’s all words. I would guess to recoup their costs, Anet would have to charge in the $150 or more range for the upgrade.

Bottomline: ROI is crap on an upgrade like that.

Frankly, I wouldn’t pay cent for a DX12 upgrade. I’m not convinced I need it or it would make the game better for me. I don’t think I’m alone when I say that.

MrH.2591:

WoW managed to make the jump from DX9 to DX11 so I don’t know why GW2 can’t do the same, I gained 25fps when Blizzard updated their engine and client to 64bit. It would be a massive improvement to the game.

If we assume WoW currently have 7 million subscribers.
Each paying $15 per month. That means a guaranteed income of AT LEAST 105 MILLIONS every MONTH.

ArenaNet is most likely not even close to that level of income. Thus it is rather silly to compare them.

MrH.2591:

WoW managed to make the jump from DX9 to DX11 so I don’t know why GW2 can’t do the same, I gained 25fps when Blizzard updated their engine and client to 64bit. It would be a massive improvement to the game.

Always funny those “even WoW did it”. Sounds as if Blizzard is a poor
garage company with 5 people that still live in moms basement.

If even WoW can do it, YOU can do it also .. just buy ANet, implement DX12 and
then give it free to us all .. its really easy as that if even Blizzard can do it

lordkrall.7241:

MrH.2591:

WoW managed to make the jump from DX9 to DX11 so I don’t know why GW2 can’t do the same, I gained 25fps when Blizzard updated their engine and client to 64bit. It would be a massive improvement to the game.

If we assume WoW currently have 7 million subscribers.
Each paying $15 per month. That means a guaranteed income of AT LEAST 105 MILLIONS every MONTH.

ArenaNet is most likely not even close to that level of income. Thus it is rather silly to compare them.

So you think the upgrade costed blizz 105 mil? The cost for the upgrade goes into salary. Nothing else should be revamped. They dont need art team for this upgrade. They dont need sound team, they dont need a story team. What they need is a few hard working devs (programmers) and 5 months. After that some QA. But I can be a beta tester for that if they dont want to pay for QA. Hell I’ll bring all my friends to QA Dx 11/12 for free. xD

So if 10 devs can make millions for 5 months working at ANet, I’m so passing my CV to them lulz xD

@Obtena – Yes the ROI is negative for this upgrade. But single-threaded DirectX 9 is forcing them to work more at the moment to optimize for this old renderer. Eventually those overwork hours will cost them more than the update itself. They can double the draw calls with Dx 11. Even moreso with Dx 12/Vulkan. Its basic economics. In the long run, this DirectX 9 is going to raise the prices of everything. In the long run, they might even find it hard to find devs that know how to work with Dx 9. Keep in mind that good developers are in limited supply. And some good developers just don’t want to go through the hassle of supporting old technology. And they don’t even look at these gigs.

Beldin.5498:

MrH.2591:

WoW managed to make the jump from DX9 to DX11 so I don’t know why GW2 can’t do the same, I gained 25fps when Blizzard updated their engine and client to 64bit. It would be a massive improvement to the game.

Always funny those “even WoW did it”. Sounds as if Blizzard is a poor
garage company with 5 people that still live in moms basement.

If even WoW can do it, YOU can do it also .. just buy ANet, implement DX12 and
then give it free to us all .. its really easy as that if even Blizzard can do it

I already gave an example earlier on this thread where a single person, on his free time, without getting paid even 1$, made a DX10 renderer for various Unreal Engine 1 games, a DX6-7 engine btw, 3-4 generations behind.

Now, Anet is obviously a big company, not as big as Blizzard, but still they have more man power and more money than a single person who did it as a hobby.

We have two options here:
a) Anet doesn’t care about new DirectX versions because their metrics show that the vast majority of players play GW2 on toasters
b) Their engine is not very well made and doesn’t have an easy way to use a different renderer

For the first part, it might be true since we don’t have access to those metrics. For the second part though, keep in mind that GW1 wasn’t DirectX 9.c ready when it was released, yet they upgraded the renderer later on, which means their engine can indeed take different renderers.

Here’s a question. How many people, when thinking about buying a game, will choose not to simply because it doesn’t support Dx11/12? Sure, once they have a game they may desire Dx11/12 on the grounds they believe that will lead to better performance but whose to say that’s the limiting factor here.

We’ve been in crowds of NPCs without the slowdown we get with crowds of players. That should indicate the fault isn’t in the rendering but the additional code dealing with players.

Behellagh.1468:

Here’s a question. How many people, when thinking about buying a game, will choose not to simply because it doesn’t support Dx11/12? Sure, once they have a game they may desire Dx11/12 on the grounds they believe that will lead to better performance but whose to say that’s the limiting factor here.

We’ve been in crowds of NPCs without the slowdown we get with crowds of players. That should indicate the fault isn’t in the rendering but the additional code dealing with players.

That’s true and the best place to “test” this is Claw Island where it’s full of NPCs, big World-boss crowd, yet there is little to no lag.

The main reason for npcs not counting for lag, is because they use a Global Skill Cooldown on NPCs. NPCs in this game “think” every ~2 seconds, so they require a minimal amount of resources to maintain. However, unlike other MMORPGs, there is no Global Skill Cooldown on players (thank god, I hate GSCs!) so the server needs to poll ALL players every couple of milliseconds to accurately get what are they doing each time. This results in insane lag when loads of players are on-screen.

Having a more efficient / faster renderer could in fact speed up the game for everyone. Take a look at anti-aliasing injectors that allow you to “inject” FXAA in Guild Wars 2, for example, SweetFX, among other things, can allow GW2 to use FXAA. The game uses the old MSAA which is much slower and you WILL see an improvement in FPS if you use FXAA over MSAA

The game has FXAA by default. They use SweetFX to allow other AA modes since FXAA is a post process filter that has the problem with blurring textures not on true edges. Now SweetFX may allow you to tweak their FXAA parameters to find a better compromise.

Ravenmoon.5318:

@Obtena – Yes the ROI is negative for this upgrade. But single-threaded DirectX 9 is forcing them to work more at the moment to optimize for this old renderer. Eventually those overwork hours will cost them more than the update itself. They can double the draw calls with Dx 11. Even moreso with Dx 12/Vulkan. Its basic economics. In the long run, this DirectX 9 is going to raise the prices of everything. In the long run, they might even find it hard to find devs that know how to work with Dx 9. Keep in mind that good developers are in limited supply. And some good developers just don’t want to go through the hassle of supporting old technology. And they don’t even look at these gigs.

Could be, but using DX9 already factors into their business model on what the game costs to make and how it makes money. The fact that DX12 is faster to develop to save money is balanced by the cost to upgrade. Therefore, they simply aren’t going to upgrade until they HAVE to, which will be determined by the point where DX gives a net benefit. There is no way they are even close to that net benefit yet.

If they do decide to upgrade regardless of the ROI, it’s going to cost YOU and other people ‘willing’ to pay a fortune to fund it.

I would also love for Anet to join us in the wonderful year of 2015 and update their game to run an API that is not over a decade old.

People in this thread who are pretending like implementing a Dx12 version of the game would mean that the devs would have to redesign the game engine from scratch are insane.

World of Warcraft has a Dx11 and Dx9 mode and the Dx11 mode runs MUCH better, up to 50% improvement in frame rate, and the devs didn’t have to stop remake their engine and the Dx9 client didn’t have to be scrapped and thrown away.

But hey, you guys can believe what ever nonsense you like.

Naminator.9316:

I would also love for Anet to join us in the wonderful year of 2015 and update their game to run an API that is not over a decade old.

People in this thread who are pretending like implementing a Dx12 version of the game would mean that the devs would have to redesign the game engine from scratch are insane.

World of Warcraft has a Dx11 and Dx9 mode and the Dx11 mode runs MUCH better, up to 50% improvement in frame rate, and the devs didn’t have to stop remake their engine and the Dx9 client didn’t have to be scrapped and thrown away.

But hey, you guys can believe what ever nonsense you like.

You clearly didn’t read the post above you…

Obtena.7952:

Ravenmoon.5318:

@Obtena – Yes the ROI is negative for this upgrade. But single-threaded DirectX 9 is forcing them to work more at the moment to optimize for this old renderer. Eventually those overwork hours will cost them more than the update itself. They can double the draw calls with Dx 11. Even moreso with Dx 12/Vulkan. Its basic economics. In the long run, this DirectX 9 is going to raise the prices of everything. In the long run, they might even find it hard to find devs that know how to work with Dx 9. Keep in mind that good developers are in limited supply. And some good developers just don’t want to go through the hassle of supporting old technology. And they don’t even look at these gigs.

Could be, but using DX9 already factors into their business model on what the game costs to make and how it makes money. The fact that DX12 is faster to develop to save money is balanced by the cost to upgrade. Therefore, they simply aren’t going to upgrade until they HAVE to, which will be determined by the point where DX gives a net benefit. There is no way they are even close to that net benefit yet.

If they do decide to upgrade regardless of the ROI, it’s going to cost YOU and other people ‘willing’ to pay a fortune to fund it.

Its laready been shown dx 12 gives a net benifit also you dont know if they are or not close to net benifit yet in your own words. At 24:15 shows where Anet still struggeling with performance issues on one map as an expanple for gdc.

http://gdcvault.com/play/1016640/Guild-Wars-2-Programming-the

DirectX 12 is meant to also harness the CPU’s full capabilities (all cores), allowing multiple commands to be sent to the GPU simultaneously and allow for more efficient communication between these two crucial components.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2015/03/26/directx-12-delivers-amd-nvidia-and-intel-hardware-tested-with-awesome-improvements/

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2903586/directx-12-will-goose-gpus-too-amd-says-unlocking-the-potential-of-its-graphics-cards.html

I don’t understand the big deal. The game is fine as is. Real mmo gamers know that gameplay trumps pretty graphics.

Naminator.9316:

I would also love for Anet to join us in the wonderful year of 2015 and update their game to run an API that is not over a decade old.

People in this thread who are pretending like implementing a Dx12 version of the game would mean that the devs would have to redesign the game engine from scratch are insane.

World of Warcraft has a Dx11 and Dx9 mode and the Dx11 mode runs MUCH better, up to 50% improvement in frame rate, and the devs didn’t have to stop remake their engine and the Dx9 client didn’t have to be scrapped and thrown away.

But hey, you guys can believe what ever nonsense you like.

Nobody is saying the entire engine needs to be scraped or that we would lose Dx9 support. But adding Dx11 or 12 support is not trivial either. And stop using the multi-billion dollars in cumulative income WoW as an example how easy it was. You have no idea how many developers they hired to add Dx11 support or exactly how long it took to develop it. The point being they had more than enough money to through a ton of people to exclusively work on it. Actual programmers. Not artists or map designers or script writers. Actual programmers.

Cazamar.7148:

I don’t understand the big deal. The game is fine as is. Real mmo gamers know that gameplay trumps pretty graphics.

how is the game fine? it still has many issues and some of which would be alleviatede by dx 12.

I think a lot of players are running the game with a kittenty processor and then blame ArenaNet for poor performance .

Cazamar.7148:

I don’t understand the big deal. The game is fine as is. Real mmo gamers know that gameplay trumps pretty graphics.

Better graphics APIs don’t improve graphics, they improve performance, and this is what people are asking for.

In order to actually get the new pretty graphics, they will have to do changes to their actual content, nobody asks for that, just a new API that better utilizes the graphics capabilities of current systems.

It has absolutely nothing to do with adding new pretty graphics in the game, just performance gains

Behellagh.1468:

Naminator.9316:

I would also love for Anet to join us in the wonderful year of 2015 and update their game to run an API that is not over a decade old.

People in this thread who are pretending like implementing a Dx12 version of the game would mean that the devs would have to redesign the game engine from scratch are insane.

World of Warcraft has a Dx11 and Dx9 mode and the Dx11 mode runs MUCH better, up to 50% improvement in frame rate, and the devs didn’t have to stop remake their engine and the Dx9 client didn’t have to be scrapped and thrown away.

But hey, you guys can believe what ever nonsense you like.

Nobody is saying the entire engine needs to be scraped or that we would lose Dx9 support. But adding Dx11 or 12 support is not trivial either. And stop using the multi-billion dollars in cumulative income WoW as an example how easy it was. You have no idea how many developers they hired to add Dx11 support or exactly how long it took to develop it. The point being they had more than enough money to through a ton of people to exclusively work on it. Actual programmers. Not artists or map designers or script writers. Actual programmers.

Although a lot of people keep posting about how Blizzard created a DX10/11 renderer for WoW, it’s not the only company that has done so. Turbine created a DX11 renderer for Lotro and DDO, CCP for EVE and many many others. Did they all have way more money than Arenanet to hire actual programmers to work on that?

Also, I posted earlier about the Unreal Engine 1 Directx10 renderers, how a free mod allows super old games to use DX10 and have much better graphics. Here, have another one: http://www.danielsoltyka.com/older-personal-works/directx-10-rendering-engine/

This is a Direct X 10 rendering engine created from scratch in ~3 months by a single person. A whole 3D rendering engine in 3 months, without having a DX9 version to work with beforehand.

Stop saying it takes a whole lot of time or money to make a new renderer. It’s just not high priority enough for Anet, nothing more, nothing less.