Guild Wars 2

Behellagh.1468:

Ayrilana.1396:

And the problem with using steam is that it only gives you players who use that service and actually took the survey. Not to mention it’s based on whatever they consider to be “active”.

Survey is simply permission but at least that sample starts with those who game on PCs rather than using every PC on the planet as a starting point. Since nearly all new PCs ship with 10 that skews the “adoption rate”.

It can be tracked between those that upgrade vs those that simply get a new PC. The adoption rates for all PC users towards Win10 should be relatively comparable to that of gamers.

Not really. I know some prominent Twitch streamers don’t don’t play on 10. Maybe due to stream software compatibility issues. Even here we have a weekly thread in Technical asking about Win 10 and this game.

Until we are have a series of predominate games that show significant improvement with Dx12, we aren’t going to see a rush to upgrade.

Behellagh.1468:

Ayrilana.1396:

And the problem with using steam is that it only gives you players who use that service and actually took the survey. Not to mention it’s based on whatever they consider to be “active”.

Survey is simply permission but at least that sample starts with those who game on PCs rather than using every PC on the planet as a starting point. Since nearly all new PCs ship with 10 that skews the “adoption rate”.

you say it is simple permission. yes from the user but there is confidentiality agreement connected to this. it is like anet in your bug report the system info are collected and they have those system information but it is confidential. you did not see people complain and being afraid that windows 10 collect some data? it is not only windows 10 all system do even the web does collect info. what is sure is that all that have windows 7 and up will upgrade to windows 10. even if some does not upgrade with the free upgrade and want to stick to their old os. eventually they will change pc and buy a new one. same for people that have older os. look on the market share of os. and compile all the windows os together. that will be windows 10 os market share in the future world wide. and yes steam survey give you a good idea of what pc os are use by gamers. gamers usely go with performance machine. the prefer os right now is windows 10. of course it brings dx 12 multithread solve the overhead issue and gives your pc more graphic power under the hood if you have more then 1 graphic card on board like sly or cross fire. but better since it takes all capacity or brand. and all the new pc with a intel ship all ready have some hd graphic power apart from the NVidia or amd or other brand graphic card that the gamer put to play game since the fps is higher on those card for gaming per pace. hard ware is at a limit right now. the time of making cpu smaller to get more speed (ghz) is pretty much over with the technology that we use today intel as laid off employee recently because of that. moore’s law is ending.
http://www.cnet.com/news/end-of-moores-law-its-not-just-about-physics/ onless they find new process or new material to keep on going smaller and faster. evolution of cpu will stay the same. look at cpu heat issue after 4.3 ghz. that is why they came out with multicore in the first place. and yes I can understand that anet did not follow that since when they started double core cpu they add some issue it was new and communication between core and the splitting of the task and reassemble of the task together was crippling the benefit of having 2 core(you would have minimal gain of having 2 core at that time). so many at that time have stick with the old way of putting more ghz to solve the problem, but now multicore as evolve the communication and process work better then in its start and you now have quad core, 4 core per cpu. so the cpu can now make 4 time more work with out the need to go high in ghz to do that work. just like having 4 employee to work on the same job does the job done faster then having only one. another example could be of having a car on the road to make delivery having 4 car on the road to make the delivery go faster. of course it is more complex for writing the software to use that hardware. before there was 1 place to send the data in now there is 4 so you need to program your data smarter.

Behellagh.1468:

Not really. I know some prominent Twitch streamers don’t don’t play on 10. Maybe due to stream software compatibility issues. Even here we have a weekly thread in Technical asking about Win 10 and this game.

Until we are have a series of predominate games that show significant improvement with Dx12, we aren’t going to see a rush to upgrade.

Yeah, that’s why I think more devs may be into vulkan, since it can run on Windows 7 machines.

Didn’t GW2 just recently stop using DX 9 and and we are on 10 now?

crepuscular.9047:

Behellagh.1468:

Not really. I know some prominent Twitch streamers don’t don’t play on 10. Maybe due to stream software compatibility issues. Even here we have a weekly thread in Technical asking about Win 10 and this game.

Until we are have a series of predominate games that show significant improvement with Dx12, we aren’t going to see a rush to upgrade.

Yeah, that’s why I think more devs may be into vulkan, since it can run on Windows 7 machines.

After just a year and a half, AMD appears to be sunsetting its “revolutionary” original Mantle gaming API as we know it, according to a blog post written by Raja Koduri, VP of Visual and Perceptual computing at AMD.

“…[I]f you are a developer interested in Mantle “1.0” functionality, we suggest that you focus your attention on DirectX 12 or GLnext,” Korduri writes.

Korduri said AMD will no longer release Mantle 1.0 as a public SDK as originally intended, which many will take to mean that that is the end of it as an alternative to DirectX12 and the new OpenGL standards.
you can read it : http://www.pcworld.com/article/2891672/amds-mantle-10-is-dead-long-live-directx.html

This thread keep getting more replies, even if developers said that GW2 won’t ever support multithreading or DX upgrades or any kind of new engine.
They even crushed our hopes for GW3 to come out with better graphic and overall optimisation.

Note from futue: It’s 2025, we still have DX9c, game is still CPU heavy, it can’t utilize GPU or CPU to max performance.

ShinyDay.5349:

This thread keep getting more replies, even if developers said that GW2 won’t ever support multithreading or DX upgrades or any kind of new engine.
They even crushed our hopes for GW3 to come out with better graphic and overall optimisation.

Note from futue: It’s 2025, we still have DX9c, game is still CPU heavy, it can’t utilize GPU or CPU to max performance.

If GW3 uses the same crap engine that GW2 uses, I will not buy it. its not 2004 anymore, its time to retire old technology.

The DX 11 / 12 debates have been going on for ages, I believe a poll will does more justice!

http://www.strawpoll.me/10292457

PS: Please don’t merge this with DX 11 / 12 thread or this poll will be buried.

Edit: To clarify. DX12 has improved pc cores to gpu cores communications but whatever, higher drawcalls is more understandable

Jon Olson.8439:

Our recent response regarding rendering api changes.

What more do you need to know than that it is not going to happen?

Yargesh.4965:

Jon Olson.8439:

Our recent response regarding rendering api changes.

What more do you need to know than that it is not going to happen?

Demands drive changes. That’s how business works.

Wow, now if only there was some mega thread somewhere on this very forum where a handful of players demanding Anet cater solely to their needs and desires exists. Oh wait – IT’S ON THE VERY SAME PAGE AS THIS THREAD.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/DirectX-11-12-request-merged/first

sirsquishy.2619:

ShinyDay.5349:

This thread keep getting more replies, even if developers said that GW2 won’t ever support multithreading or DX upgrades or any kind of new engine.
They even crushed our hopes for GW3 to come out with better graphic and overall optimisation.

Note from futue: It’s 2025, we still have DX9c, game is still CPU heavy, it can’t utilize GPU or CPU to max performance.

If GW3 uses the same crap engine that GW2 uses, I will not buy it. its not 2004 anymore, its time to retire old technology.

There won’t be GW3.
They will just keep updating GW2 with new expansions like HoT for example.
There won’t be GW 2.5 or anything … just more updates to GW2.

And to update engine of game, they would need to rewrite almost all codes, so we can just forget about it.
I sometimes dream about GW2 running with Unreal Engine 4. Many orgasms.

ShinyDay.5349:

sirsquishy.2619:

ShinyDay.5349:

This thread keep getting more replies, even if developers said that GW2 won’t ever support multithreading or DX upgrades or any kind of new engine.
They even crushed our hopes for GW3 to come out with better graphic and overall optimisation.

Note from futue: It’s 2025, we still have DX9c, game is still CPU heavy, it can’t utilize GPU or CPU to max performance.

If GW3 uses the same crap engine that GW2 uses, I will not buy it. its not 2004 anymore, its time to retire old technology.

There won’t be GW3.
They will just keep updating GW2 with new expansions like HoT for example.
There won’t be GW 2.5 or anything … just more updates to GW2.

And to update engine of game, they would need to rewrite almost all codes, so we can just forget about it.
I sometimes dream about GW2 running with Unreal Engine 4. Many orgasms.

well they could package a new engine with a future Expansion. But as time goes on, if they leave it as it, the game will die off naturally as newer MMOs ship that offer the same features of GW2 with faster performance.

eventually (I will say with in 2 years) GW2 will need a new game engine to be competitive with other Games in the same Genre.

ShinyDay.5349:

sirsquishy.2619:

ShinyDay.5349:

This thread keep getting more replies, even if developers said that GW2 won’t ever support multithreading or DX upgrades or any kind of new engine.
They even crushed our hopes for GW3 to come out with better graphic and overall optimisation.

Note from futue: It’s 2025, we still have DX9c, game is still CPU heavy, it can’t utilize GPU or CPU to max performance.

If GW3 uses the same crap engine that GW2 uses, I will not buy it. its not 2004 anymore, its time to retire old technology.

There won’t be GW3.
They will just keep updating GW2 with new expansions like HoT for example.
There won’t be GW 2.5 or anything … just more updates to GW2.

And to update engine of game, they would need to rewrite almost all codes, so we can just forget about it.
I sometimes dream about GW2 running with Unreal Engine 4. Many orgasms.

from what we know there is 3 software component that needs to be added to the game engine. for the game engine it is a secret of state what they modified to make gw 2 possible, so they might have all ready some of the needed component to do the job but we do not know. and of couse for the content each thread of code will need to be modified to give them direction to where they are going at what time they will arrive etc… this after need testing to see if every thing is working properly, if not correct mistake . test again once it is working update. yes it is more job.

one dev as give word on this and I have ear that another one said it was not the gospel, for the moment they do not plan on doing it. it could be to soon for them to do it. it is like 64 bit they did not plan or see the advantage of it. but when hot expansion came out, and the game was crashing a lot. the 64 bit client came and it solved the game crashing issue. so I think that it solved the issue and there was advantage to implement it after all.

they plan another expansion more living world they started to put server together in wvw. the game with many animation happening at same time suffer from dx 9 limit. causing the fps drop. so it is only a matter of time before they need to add something that they did not plan to or did not see the advantage of it.

so maybe they will change their mind the future will tell.

FPS issue magically goes away when you reduce the number of player models on screen.

Ayrilana.1396:

FPS issue magically goes away when you reduce the number of player models on screen.

look if you do not believe what we say to you. what you can do go in wvw. on rush hours when there is lots of zerg happening. open the option panel look at the fps in the lower right corner then move on the map and look at the fps when you are alone when people or graphic npc comes near and when the big zerg 30+ comes over to fight another or 2 zerg of about the same size and keep your eyes on the fps. and you will see that many animation really does drop the fps. and when the animation go away from you it go back up again.

and to answer your answer no it is not magic it is the drawcall limit of dx 9. you have to understand that when the cpu is bound it cannot send the job fast enuff to the gpu to do the graphic on screen and that is when your fps start to drop. same as when you take your car and there is lot of traffic on the bridge. even if you put the speed limit higher on the bridge(cpu) it is jam so you will not go faster. there is a cop (api) that is stopping car on the other side of the bridge to regulate the traffic to gpu town. it cause over head. the over head cause the traffic on the bridge. even with a sport car you will get stuck on the bridge, you will arrive sooner in the trafic jam, it can help you clear the bridge a little faster once the bridge clear up. but it does not solve the traffic jam.

stephanie wise.7841:

Ayrilana.1396:

FPS issue magically goes away when you reduce the number of player models on screen.

look if you do not believe what we say to you. what you can do go in wvw. on rush hours when there is lots of zerg happening. open the option panel look at the fps in the lower right corner then move on the map and look at the fps when you are alone when people or graphic npc comes near and when the big zerg 30+ comes over to fight another or 2 zerg of about the same size and keep your eyes on the fps. and you will see that many animation really does drop the fps. and when the animation go away from you it go back up again.

and to answer your answer no it is not magic it is the drawcall limit of dx 9. you have to understand that when the cpu is bound it cannot send the job fast enuff to the gpu to do the graphic on screen and that is when your fps start to drop. same as when you take your car and there is lot of traffic on the bridge. even if you put the speed limit higher on the bridge(cpu) it is jam so you will not go faster. there is a cop (api) that is stopping car on the other side of the bridge to regulate the traffic to gpu town. it cause over head. the over head cause the traffic on the bridge. even with a sport car you will get stuck on the bridge, you will arrive sooner in the trafic jam, it can help you clear the bridge a little faster once the bridge clear up. but it does not solve the traffic jam.

I’m not disputing that when there are more things to process that it affects the FPS. It was actually implied with my single sentence post. I actually just now tested it on full settings with two zergs in EB. I was getting about 20 FPS and then it increased to around 53 FPS when I reduced the player model count to the lowest setting.

The “like magic” comment was sarcasm. But it does increase your FPS when you set it to the lowest setting. You can easily test this out at Jormag and Maw. Most definitely Maw as the entire map is stacked on one location. Your FPS magically increases once you set the setting to lowest.

Hello,

I haven’t read all this discussion because it is very long, sorry.

I totally agree with makes Guild Wars 2 runs with DirectX 11 and/or 12. (And I want the launcher also on the Windows Store!) DirectX 11 and upper are made for multithreading, that is the case for all new processors.
Helpdesk have responded me that Guild Wars 2 currently use DirectX 9. So ArenaNet must add this task to the most important projects. I greatly encourages developpers to do this!! It isn’t easy but if community wants it, they may be encouraged!

I’m french, sorry for my bad english. I try to be comprehensible as possible!

We could always hope…..

The posters who are all ‘We want DX12..Blah Blah’ Have no idea what they are talking about and are misdirecting the root issue with the game.

We should be demanding that the games control engine be moved from Single Threaded to 2+ threads.

that will solve 99% of this with out even touching DX12.

sirsquishy.2619:

The posters who are all ‘We want DX12..Blah Blah’ Have no idea what they are talking about and are misdirecting the root issue with the game.

If you’re talking to me, I don’t really want DirectX 12: I think it is not an obligation. I think that DirectX 11 can be sufficient because it is made for multithreaded rendering. And it avoid to have to maintain 2 versions: DirectX 11 mode (for Windows Vista (that are up to date) and later) and DirectX 12 (Windows 10 only).
However, Guild Wars 2 is a MMO and DirectX 12 may offer optimizations. Due to this type of game, computer must render a lot of character, and it can be interresting to optimize the way that characters are rendered. But yes, I don’t know DX12 and it is suppositions.

But I agree to you: it’s not 2004, and it is not like if Windows XP support was ended!

sirsquishy.2619:

The posters who are all ‘We want DX12..Blah Blah’ Have no idea what they are talking about and are misdirecting the root issue with the game.

We should be demanding that the games control engine be moved from Single Threaded to 2+ threads.

that will solve 99% of this with out even touching DX12.

not really since the over head is cause by the api. and only dx 12 solve this. also only dx 12 use multiple core. dx 11 still use only one core and does not solve the over head issue. of course using more then one core would help the game. but to do that it seams they need to add couple of component to the engine. and write the content code smarter to use multiple core. so more job more testing. to give example: it is like a bridge(cpu) with 4 lane but your car know only to use 1 lane. and on the other side of the bridge you have a cop(api) doing the traffic on street corner. and car stop and ask him am I going to gpu city do I have the right direction. the cop need to validate the info and tell them where they are going. of course if the car would know where they are going in the first place and would not ask the cop. it would make a lot less over head. and of course if all those data car could use 4 lane on the bridge(cpu) that is what dx 12 brings to the table but it means more job and testing done by the devs also more responsibility to the dev because the cop(api) will not direct the lost data car that do not know where they are going.

And to repeat this, yet again, for this game, it’s NOT the DirectX API overhead that is impacting performance at times when performance is at it’s worse.

You seem to not to be able to acknowledge that even when a dev who works on the game engine said so.

You are the armchair car guy who insists that what the car needs to perform better is low profile racing tires and a spoiler while ignoring the limitations in the existing drive train.

stephanie wise.7841:

sirsquishy.2619:

The posters who are all ‘We want DX12..Blah Blah’ Have no idea what they are talking about and are misdirecting the root issue with the game.

We should be demanding that the games control engine be moved from Single Threaded to 2+ threads.

that will solve 99% of this with out even touching DX12.

not really since the over head is cause by the api. and only dx 12 solve this. also only dx 12 use multiple core. dx 11 still use only one core and does not solve the over head issue. of course using more then one core would help the game. but to do that it seams they need to add couple of component to the engine. and write the content code smarter to use multiple core. so more job more testing.

How many games currently/have utilized multiple cores in the past? The number of cores used doesn’t depend on which version of DX is used.

You also keep ignoring something that gets highlighted to you time after time;

Which brings us to GW2. GW2 does a lot of processing, and much of it is done on the main thread. That is also where its bottleneck tends to be: The main thread. There are conscious efforts in moving things off the main thread and onto other threads (every now and then a patch goes out that does just this), but due to how multi-threading works it’s a non-trivial thing that take a lot of effort to do. In a perfect world, we could say “Hey main thread, give the other threads some stuff to do if you’re too busy”, but sadly this is not that world.

As for DX9 and 32bit: Moving off of DX9 wouldn’t buy us a whole lot performance wise, as all interaction with DirectX is happening on the render thread, which is generally not the bottleneck. Moving from 32-bit to 64-bit also does not really buy us a lot performance-wise. There are some optimizations the compiler is able to do with 64-bit that it can’t do otherwise, but the actual FPS gain is minimal at best.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3ajnso/bad_optimalization_in_gw2/csdnn3n

Kodiak.3281:

Honestly it’s the lack of a 64 bit client but the ability to go over 4GB of Memory that’s simply atrocious at this stage.

Either limit it back to where the client can’t go over 4GB of Memory or give us a 64 bit client.

Crashing on huge raid bosses is simply terrible.

There IS a 64bit client.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/64_bit_beta_client
It works very very well.

Ayrilana.1396:

stephanie wise.7841:

sirsquishy.2619:

The posters who are all ‘We want DX12..Blah Blah’ Have no idea what they are talking about and are misdirecting the root issue with the game.

We should be demanding that the games control engine be moved from Single Threaded to 2+ threads.

that will solve 99% of this with out even touching DX12.

not really since the over head is cause by the api. and only dx 12 solve this. also only dx 12 use multiple core. dx 11 still use only one core and does not solve the over head issue. of course using more then one core would help the game. but to do that it seams they need to add couple of component to the engine. and write the content code smarter to use multiple core. so more job more testing.

How many games currently/have utilized multiple cores in the past? The number of cores used doesn’t depend on which version of DX is used.

DirectX 11: Your CPU communicates to the GPU 1 core to 1 core at a time. It is still a big boost over DirectX 9 where only 1 dedicated thread was allowed to talk to the GPU but it’s still only scratching the surface.

DirectX 12: Every core can talk to the GPU at the same time

http://www.littletinyfrogs.com/article/460524/DirectX_11_vs_DirectX_12_oversimplified

You also keep ignoring something that gets highlighted to you time after time;

Which brings us to GW2. GW2 does a lot of processing, and much of it is done on the main thread. That is also where its bottleneck tends to be: The main thread. There are conscious efforts in moving things off the main thread and onto other threads (every now and then a patch goes out that does just this), but due to how multi-threading works it’s a non-trivial thing that take a lot of effort to do. In a perfect world, we could say “Hey main thread, give the other threads some stuff to do if you’re too busy”, but sadly this is not that world.

As for DX9 and 32bit: Moving off of DX9 wouldn’t buy us a whole lot performance wise, as all interaction with DirectX is happening on the render thread, which is generally not the bottleneck. Moving from 32-bit to 64-bit also does not really buy us a lot performance-wise. There are some optimizations the compiler is able to do with 64-bit that it can’t do otherwise, but the actual FPS gain is minimal at best.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3ajnso/bad_optimalization_in_gw2/csdnn3n

look this is not new in dx 9 there is only 1 core. we are talking about the game optimization to dx 12 multiple core.

DirectX 9, the CPU, being 1 core in those days, would talk to the GPU through the “main” thread.

DirectX 10 improved things a bit by allowing multiple cores send jobs to the GPU. This was nice but the pipeline to the GPU was still serialized. Thus, you still ended up with 1 CPU core talking to 1 GPU core.

yes thread 0 look at example of the thread in dx 11 and dx 12. this should explain all you need to know. follow this link and look in the middle of the page. picture with thread http://www.trustedreviews.com/opinions/directx-12-vs-directx-11-what-s-new

You know, some posters always know better than the Devs themselves. That’s why they own and run multi-m/billion dollar game companies. I’m sure they just want to share their expertise in development and running such companies.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

You know, some posters always know better than the Devs themselves. That’s why they own and run multi-m/billion dollar game companies. I’m sure they just want to share their expertise in development and running such companies.

Just because you own something doesn’t make you an expert at with it. and really multi billion now that’s funny as kitten.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

You know, some posters always know better than the Devs themselves. That’s why they own and run multi-m/billion dollar game companies. I’m sure they just want to share their expertise in development and running such companies.

Not every developer knows everything about everything. They are not gods. They are people like you.

I’ve seen many knowledgeable customers actually lecture developers over the years. And sometimes they even listen and improve the game with such advanced feedback.

If that wasn’t the case, you wouldn’t see third party fixes to games riddled with bugs or for bad ports with poor performance fixing everything the developers didn’t fix.

Just in my Steam library I have quite some games that won’t run properly, or look like crap, or may stall or become unplayable or have parts of its content unfinishable or inaccessible unless such third party fixes and community patches are applied. And none of them are indie games. They are AAA games like TES:Oblivion and Just Cause 2.

Wow. Guess my post was confusing.

When stating “that’s why they own multi-m/billion game companies”, I was referring to the armchair devs (forum posters) who know best.

Perhaps the poster(s) in this thread who have superior knowledge can get a job at ArenaNet or merge their companies.

Sorry for the confusion.

But people are reading articles on Dx12 and not understanding what it actually does and how it goes about impacting performance. They are also ignoring or writing off the game engine dev who stated the thing that is primarily limiting performance isn’t where the game is calling Direct X.

Dx12 is not some silver bullet that would automagically fix the game’s performance issues or let you get 120 fps if you drop a GTX 1080 into your system.

This game engine did not start as a First Person Shooter game engine where frames per second is all that matters. Those engines are very dependent on GPU performance and you can significantly improve performance with a faster GPU or by adopting a multithreading friendly, CPU optimized graphics API which will help on systems with lower performing CPUs. That’s why GPU cards use them for benchmarking and why those game engines, and 3D APIs, use GPU cards to benchmark against one another.

sirsquishy.2619:

If GW3 uses the same crap engine that GW2 uses, I will not buy it.

LOL now it’s even a crap engine.

If the Devs added use of DX11/12 to GW2 without forcing current users of DX9 to upgrade or quit like what Zenimax just did with ESO, then it wouldn’t bother me in the slightest to have to d/l a new client or massive patch. If some Players would benefit I’m all for it.

Frankly I think the current graphics are just fine for my tastes and I am tired and feedup with the planned obsolescence nonsense in PC gaming and the entire computer industry in general. To me that is all it is and I have had my fill of it.

If they want to add support and utilization for DX11/12 cool… add… not force.

Don’t have a problem with that either. It’s just not as easy as adding Dx11/12 but a revamp of the management thread that’s limiting performance.

SkyShroud.2865:

The DX 11 / 12 debates have been going on for ages, I believe a poll will does more justice!

http://www.strawpoll.me/10292457

PS: Please don’t merge this with DX 11 / 12 thread or this poll will be buried.

Edit: To clarify. DX12 has improved pc cores to gpu cores communications but whatever, higher drawcalls is more understandable

29 voted!

24% voted for no!
76% voted for yes!

Whoa, 29 out of several million keys bought for the game. Great statistical significance there.

Yargesh.4965:

Whoa, 29 out of several million keys bought for the game. Great statistical significance there.

well most people do not know what is the difference between the dx version and what it means for the game in the first place. so to have a big number of people to vote on this with out knowing what it is about is kind like of hard. you would have to first explain that the games run on dx 9 what is the drawcall limit and limitation of dx 9. then do the same with dx 12 and what it would help the game with like the cpu bound issue. when there is lots of animation in big zerg fight or big meta event in the game. when the fps drops pretty low. some see dx 12 as something new that they might not be able to follow with their current hardware. but the free upgrade to windows 10 ends in 2 month from now and the only thing is the graphic card. you need one that is not more old then 6 years ago NVidia and asus have the list of compatible graphic card I have all ready posted this before.. and even if you have one that is to old it does not mean that you cannot upgrade it price of old graphic card from 6 year ago have drop a lot. will also say that pc are not eternal and eventually you will need to change your pc so your old xp or vista system will need a replacement in the near future. the only people that cannot upgrade to windows 10 right now seams to be people that have Samsung device Samsung are late on compatible driver. was on the news this week. for those old system they could still run the old version of the software for the time being. they all ready have a 32 bit and 64 bit client and are able to support both. and lets face it 32 bit will eventually go away. if you look in the past you add 16 bits system after 32 bit system and after 64 bit system. do you still see many 16 bits system on the market? the next one to come out will probably be 128 bit since it usually double. 64 bit is not so recent it was out in 2005 on windows xp pro system. 64 bit is all ready 11 years old. same for os the free upgrade to windows 10 is to have only 1 os to support in the future. also pc are slowing down in hardware improvement making component smaller and smaller to have more speed and power as reach the limit. most improvement that will come now is mostly software related(bug fix, smarter software, better way to do the same thing that we are doing, coding that require not as many line of code to do the same thing ). good example of that is dx 12, asms.js,html5. what it means for people with pc you can expect the hardware to not change much in the coming year and the software will evolve faster. so someone that will need a new system can expect to keep it for a longer time.

also for some other people technical stuff is like Chinese to them ( expression meaning a language that they do not talk or understand) so you will probably never get them to come try to understand this and vote on it.

Behellagh.1468:

But people are reading articles on Dx12 and not understanding what it actually does and how it goes about impacting performance. They are also ignoring or writing off the game engine dev who stated the thing that is primarily limiting performance isn’t where the game is calling Direct X.

don’t forget the other devs said that what the first devs said is not the gospel. will also say that in gw 2 gaming review they state that the game suffer from cpu bound issue. you can also see it in the game in big zerg fight and big meta event where the fps drops. will also say that dx 12 is very good for game that suffer from cpu bound issue.

Dx12 is not some silver bullet that would automagically fix the game’s performance issues or let you get 120 fps if you drop a GTX 1080 into your system.

dx 12 is a very big improvement. nope it is not magical people have work to make dx 12 happen and devs that will code game to use dx 12 will have more work to do dx 12 give more control to the devs for them to write smarter code it also means more responsibility and testing.

This game engine did not start as a First Person Shooter game engine where frames per second is all that matters. Those engines are very dependent on GPU performance and you can significantly improve performance with a faster GPU or by adopting a multithreading friendly, CPU optimized graphics API which will help on systems with lower performing CPUs. That’s why GPU cards use them for benchmarking and why those game engines, and 3D APIs, use GPU cards to benchmark against one another.

actually dx 12 help more game that are very complex with many character game that suffer from cpu bound issue mmo more like gw 2. as for faster cpu or faster graphic card it does not solve the issue. the issue is the api doing the communication between the cpu and gpu. that is why the cpu gets a big load and the gpu is waiting on the job. that you get a faster cpu or gpu will give minimal gain in that scenario. just like when there is a traffic jam on a bridge cause by a street corner cop directing the traffic. putting a higher speed limit on the bridge or after the bridge will not solve the issue.

@ Stephani Wise: (and others)

Direct x 12 =/= performance for older applications, DX 12 is completely the wrong thing to ask for. You need a new game engine. And it will (most likely) NOT be made.

This game’s engine was written with CPU speed in mind: This is also why at present this game can run faster on a 4.6-5.0 Ghz OC-ed Pentium G3258 with 2 cores then on a i7 3930K hexcore at stock (3.2ghz). The engine doesn’t need the threads just pure core speed. And as it is developed for DirectX 9 all videocards for DX 10(+ ) tend to be OP.

Lastly upgrading the engine w-/could force players to a new computer if the present set isn’t up to spec.

Guild wars 2 consists of many parts.

But in general you have 3 main parts of this game
1) being the program itself: gw2.exe the use of the objects ingame, the interaction, movies, database, security, and 2d flats, like the character select and the character build screens, I/O for map placement, and gamecontrols, like volume and so on.
You are interacting with this part, this part also needs to process all network data and provide the engine data to build the screen.

2) the 3D engine ( whcih is creating your landscape from mesh/ or other graphicshapes, placing 2d and 3d elements, placing objects & characters) being an old modified engine being an extremely customized version of the Unreal Engine whcih was dx 7.0/8.0 but modified to dx 9.0c, it uses an Havok add on to create physics effects (waves, wind, knockbacks, and so on, waving of armor and gear)
You are looking at this part. It builds your screen…

3) I/O with the databases and synchronisation of the game. (network services)
The servers regulate your placement and interaction with others in the game, this requires network communications. You only make use of the small bits of data you need to be able to interact with others, but this info is used by the Game executable.
This is neccesary to make your RPG into a MMO-RPG

Then there is the OS with directX which have nothing to do with the game

1) The OS makes the computer run and provides you with an interface to use it.
2) DirectX will allow programmers to write code which is universal and makes sure different components will function with the game… This is mostly hardware support.

Problem with the GW2 engine is

The game has problems to construct enough character models and effects in crowded area’s mostly because the engine was originally used to be used for up to 10-16 people. GW2 as a game is now cramming 100 people in a map and in WVW 200 even, this overstresses the game and communication to the servers. Which in turn bottlenecks the game executable, which bottlenecks the engine. The GPU and the CPU have no real problems and still have additional power, as seen by the fact the game uses only 2 cores (likely 1 for the excutablke and the handling of I/O and 1 for the Graphics) and a few added support apps (network services)

Problem is the old graphics engine of the game CANNOT HANDLE "MULTI"THREADED operation and/or communications as it was never a problem when the engine was developed. (We are talking a few days ago here)

Timeline:

1998 (Unreal v1.0 optimized for 3dfx., various versions of Direct3d 6.0+)
2000 (directx 8.0)
2001 32 bit single core CPU’s @ ~1-2 Ghz, 256Mb-1Gb Ram just so you know
2002 (directx 9.0)
2002 (Unreal v 2.0 @ dx9)
2003 (64 bit CPU’s) (AMD)
2004 (dual cores)
2004 (directx 9.0c)
2004 (unreal v3.0 @ dx9.0c)
2005 (release of GW1) I have no clue which engine they use but my best guess would bea derivative of Unreal v2.0 modified, though talk was heard they changed a lot to fit a nwer engine whcih could have been the unreal 3.0, whcih was modded.
2006 (quad cores)
2007 (release of EotN)
2007 (windows vista,directx10)
2008 (windows 7, directx 11)
2008 (windows vista SP1, directx 10.1)
2011 (windows 8, directx 11.1)
2012 (release of GW2)
2012 (Unreal v 4.0, Dx 11&12) <- you need an engine availalble to create your game, as the game has had a development track Unreal 4.0 was to late. Actually gw2 was pretty late itself… and thus the previously used gw1 engine was stripped and upgraded.
2013 (windows 8.1, directx 11.2)
2015 (announced: directx 11.3)
2015 (windows 10, directx 12)
2015 (release of GW2:HoT) Problem is an engine upgrade would have been nice, but extremely costly… we should feel lucky as the sales of HoT were lower then expected and it could have been a deathblow for the game….
2015 Unreal 4.0 engine made avaialable for free…. so no initial buy, but use is costly… I do not want to pay a monthly fee to be able to use DX 12. Would you?

As Multithreading isn’r an option and upgrading is not possible to allow for directx and multithreads and thus the game is only able to deliver 1 thread.
The question if a upgrade from directx9 to directx 12 is worthwhile is eaily handled:

1) It’s useless and a waste of time and development at this time to allow the use of DX 12.
2) The first change which should be made is a rebuild of a newer UNREAL engine to a new Guild Wars 2 engine to allow allow for multithreaded CPU rendering use and multithreaded GPU calls this asks a complete rebuild of the heart of the guild wars 2 program which might be worthwhile in a long run, but would be extremely costly due to the changes being horrendously timeconsuing and the neccesity to reverse engineer the old engine and rebuild the new engine to allow for multithreaded use and DX 12. 1 remark: the cost of using a new engine like Unreal 4.0 is free (since 2015), however a percentage of all PROFIT needs to be paid when using it! For a company completly reliant of gamestore purchases this could be a bit much…. And when they are modding it, it isn’t instantly a MMO as GW2… It is a FPS engine…

Investments to make a new game engine will run into multiple, likely even dozens of, millions of dollars, even if the engine itself has no cost. For this game it is a bit over the top… And how much you may want this change, it is most likely not happening. Devs already stated it isn’t that easy and you should consider the fact DX 12 is NO PART OF ANY GAME. It allows for easier use of available hardware, but in the case of GW2 all hardware it needs is accessed already by directx 9. The old engine cannot make use of more.

DirectX is used by programmers to allow a program to work on different build computers, but using directx12 on a PC doesn’t allow a directX 9 program to work miracles. In effect the new features directx12 provides isn’t compatible and/or neccesary and therefore not used and only the legacy directx 9 components will be used.

SO:
We have the game in 32 and 64 bit which accesses a game engine to create graphics
We have a really old game engine, updated, but still LEGACY! running on directx 9.0c
We will not have an updated game-engine anywhere soon (well likely, as devs said so) and thus we will be locked into directx 9.

We might have acces to directx 12 compatibility on computers 2-4 years old, allowing for partial directx 12 support but not by default
We might have acces to directx 12 True on computers 1 -2 year old for full directx 12 support, but not by default
We have acces to directx 12 software when running Windows 10, by default.
Direct X 12 only helps with the acces and ways to acces hardware, but if the program doesn’t use the features, any investments into allowing DX12 compatibility is/are useless…
Even if we have DX12 in all previous 3 questrions the game still is DX9 due to its game engine and it will stay directx 9.0….for now.

The End. At least for now.

Would utilizing a VM to create 2 virtual cores (from the 6 physcial or 12 virtual ones in my PC) work to improve performance? and have a virtual machine handle the datastreams?

let’s say that anet is willing to make an engine upgrade with upgrade we mean rewrite in a modern engine to use dx11-dx12. they lack the manpower tho and we will have another lack of content and prob none will like that. remember that they put legendaries in hiatus cause of that.

Well a specialized team would need to rewrite this. Those people aren’t the ones creating content, different skill sets.

The question is what does it buy ANet, beyond some good will from some players who get bent out of shape because frame rate drops below some arbitrary number that they rarely see on their rig in other games. They aren’t going to sell that many more copies by advertising “now frame rate doesn’t suck in crowds”.

And as far as the Wikipedia knows, the original Guild Wars engine was totally proprietary and not some variant on a old version of UE. Perhaps a very early version of GW that was shown off at an event was UE based for demo purposes but I don’t think it ever shipped.

I’m just trying to say that right now anet can’t spare people right now in rewriting the engine. They need them elsewhere. If they manage to spare some people to work on that in the future is more than welcome but for now they are not gonna do it and it’s not in their plan as they stated in January’s ama

And my point is that the devs working on the content aren’t the kind of devs that work on game engines. Devs, a broad range of professions including animation, 3D modeling, audio as well as programming (and not all programmers have the same skill sets), and the bulk of those 300 devs aren’t the ones you would ever let near game engine code.

A better engine will simply means that anet will be less restricted by the type of contents and bling bling they can introduce to the game. Furthermore, they can advertise gw2 having improved graphic since dx11 or 12 does have better graphical capability than dx9.

Currently, HOT maps compare to the Tyria maps have way more bling bling and stuffs going on. Likewise, desert borderland map (excluding the blobs) too reported by players having performance issue on it.

Anet has to think about the performance issue if they want to continue adding more blings bling into the game.

Doesn’t have to be dx12, dx11 itself is a significant leap forward from dx9.

They do have people working on engine but performance enhancement isn’t the priority. The engine is being improved to handle more game features, most likely for the next expansion.

Behellagh.1468:

And my point is that the devs working on the content aren’t the kind of devs that work on game engines. Devs, a broad range of professions including animation, 3D modeling, audio as well as programming (and not all programmers have the same skill sets), and the bulk of those 300 devs aren’t the ones you would ever let near game engine code.

i know man. i’m not arguing with you after all i studied some developing languages i wanted to say that right now anet don’t have the manpower in that team. they have some to make adjustments in performance but not enough to rewrite the engine

SkyShroud.2865:

Anet has to think about the performance issue if they want to continue adding more blings bling into the game.

Doesn’t have to be dx12, dx11 itself is a significant leap forward from dx9.

They do have people working on engine but performance enhancement isn’t the priority. The engine is being improved to handle more game features, most likely for the next expansion.

and yeah the game to improve the performance if they want to continue make large scale events. overclock can’t be the solution to that (and i’m not willing to oc my cpu i already changed one when i burned it with so many oc’s when i could change a cpu anyway. now i can’t)

SkyShroud.2865:

A better engine will simply means that anet will be less restricted by the type of contents and bling bling they can introduce to the game. Furthermore, they can advertise gw2 having improved graphic since dx11 or 12 does have better graphical capability than dx9.

Currently, HOT maps compare to the Tyria maps have way more bling bling and stuffs going on. Likewise, desert borderland map (excluding the blobs) too reported by players having performance issue on it.

Anet has to think about the performance issue if they want to continue adding more blings bling into the game.

Doesn’t have to be dx12, dx11 itself is a significant leap forward from dx9.

They do have people working on engine but performance enhancement isn’t the priority. The engine is being improved to handle more game features, most likely for the next expansion.

well the thing is dx 11 does not solve the cpu bound issue dx 12 does. dx 12 is the big leap that was needed. if they really are going to upgrade they should do it to dx 12. dx 12 is what is going to be in use. dx 9 was in use in 2003 the game age of mythology was using it. yes people always want more content and more stuff. hot needed to have 64 bit to run properly. and before they saw no need to have 64 bit saying it will not improve the game. it seams that it does after all. now it is the same scenario with dx 12. they plan more living world and another expansion so more blings, bling like you said.

that is why I think that optimize the game to dx 12 would help this game a lot, they could put more blings, bling in to it. and it will run better(no fps drop). and since that dx 12 is less fault tolerant means that the devs will need to do more testing to solve error before they release new content. so that also means for us that we should not have any crash of the game since it will be tested to be bug free before release. so that the user can get the best experience out of it. the game will probably be in use a longer time. meaning we will enjoy playing it for a longuer time also and since it put back some limitation for the devs they can bring more blings , bling and people like new blings, bling more content and wounderful graphic art. is it worth it for anet to invest in the success gw 2 is I think so.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

@ Stephani Wise: (and others)

---

Direct x 12 =/= performance for older applications, DX 12 is completely the wrong thing to ask for. You need a new game engine. And it will (most likely) NOT be made.

This game’s engine was written with CPU speed in mind: This is also why at present this game can run faster on a 4.6-5.0 Ghz OC-ed Pentium G3258 with 2 cores then on a i7 3930K hexcore at stock (3.2ghz). The engine doesn’t need the threads just pure core speed. And as it is developed for DirectX 9 all videocards for DX 10(+ ) tend to be OP.

Lastly upgrading the engine w-/could force players to a new computer if the present set isn’t up to spec.

---

Guild wars 2 consists of many parts.

But in general you have 3 main parts of this game
1) being the program itself: gw2.exe the use of the objects ingame, the interaction, movies, database, security, and 2d flats, like the character select and the character build screens, I/O for map placement, and gamecontrols, like volume and so on.
You are interacting with this part, this part also needs to process all network data and provide the engine data to build the screen.

2) the 3D engine ( whcih is creating your landscape from mesh/ or other graphicshapes, placing 2d and 3d elements, placing objects & characters) being an old modified engine being an extremely customized version of the Unreal Engine whcih was dx 7.0/8.0 but modified to dx 9.0c, it uses an Havok add on to create physics effects (waves, wind, knockbacks, and so on, waving of armor and gear)
You are looking at this part. It builds your screen…

3) I/O with the databases and synchronisation of the game. (network services)
The servers regulate your placement and interaction with others in the game, this requires network communications. You only make use of the small bits of data you need to be able to interact with others, but this info is used by the Game executable.
This is neccesary to make your RPG into a MMO-RPG

Then there is the OS with directX which have nothing to do with the game

1) The OS makes the computer run and provides you with an interface to use it.
2) DirectX will allow programmers to write code which is universal and makes sure different components will function with the game… This is mostly hardware support.

---

Problem with the GW2 engine is

The game has problems to construct enough character models and effects in crowded area’s mostly because the engine was originally used to be used for up to 10-16 people. GW2 as a game is now cramming 100 people in a map and in WVW 200 even, this overstresses the game and communication to the servers. Which in turn bottlenecks the game executable, which bottlenecks the engine. The GPU and the CPU have no real problems and still have additional power, as seen by the fact the game uses only 2 cores (likely 1 for the excutablke and the handling of I/O and 1 for the Graphics) and a few added support apps (network services)

Problem is the old graphics engine of the game CANNOT HANDLE "MULTI"THREADED operation and/or communications as it was never a problem when the engine was developed. (We are talking a few days ago here)

---

Timeline:

---

1998 (Unreal v1.0 optimized for 3dfx., various versions of Direct3d 6.0+)
2000 (directx 8.0)
2001 32 bit single core CPU’s @ ~1-2 Ghz, 256Mb-1Gb Ram just so you know
2002 (directx 9.0)
2002 (Unreal v 2.0 @ dx9)
2003 (64 bit CPU’s) (AMD)
2004 (dual cores)
2004 (directx 9.0c)
2004 (unreal v3.0 @ dx9.0c)
2005 (release of GW1) I have no clue which engine they use but my best guess would bea derivative of Unreal v2.0 modified, though talk was heard they changed a lot to fit a nwer engine whcih could have been the unreal 3.0, whcih was modded.
2006 (quad cores)
2007 (release of EotN)
2007 (windows vista,directx10)
2008 (windows 7, directx 11)
2008 (windows vista SP1, directx 10.1)
2011 (windows 8, directx 11.1)
2012 (release of GW2)
2012 (Unreal v 4.0, Dx 11&12) <- you need an engine availalble to create your game, as the game has had a development track Unreal 4.0 was to late. Actually gw2 was pretty late itself… and thus the previously used gw1 engine was stripped and upgraded.
2013 (windows 8.1, directx 11.2)
2015 (announced: directx 11.3)
2015 (windows 10, directx 12)
2015 (release of GW2:HoT) Problem is an engine upgrade would have been nice, but extremely costly… we should feel lucky as the sales of HoT were lower then expected and it could have been a deathblow for the game….
2015 Unreal 4.0 engine made avaialable for free…. so no initial buy, but use is costly… I do not want to pay a monthly fee to be able to use DX 12. Would you?

---

As Multithreading isn’r an option and upgrading is not possible to allow for directx and multithreads and thus the game is only able to deliver 1 thread.
The question if a upgrade from directx9 to directx 12 is worthwhile is eaily handled:

1) It’s useless and a waste of time and development at this time to allow the use of DX 12.
2) The first change which should be made is a rebuild of a newer UNREAL engine to a new Guild Wars 2 engine to allow allow for multithreaded CPU rendering use and multithreaded GPU calls this asks a complete rebuild of the heart of the guild wars 2 program which might be worthwhile in a long run, but would be extremely costly due to the changes being horrendously timeconsuing and the neccesity to reverse engineer the old engine and rebuild the new engine to allow for multithreaded use and DX 12. 1 remark: the cost of using a new engine like Unreal 4.0 is free (since 2015), however a percentage of all PROFIT needs to be paid when using it! For a company completly reliant of gamestore purchases this could be a bit much…. And when they are modding it, it isn’t instantly a MMO as GW2… It is a FPS engine…

Investments to make a new game engine will run into multiple, likely even dozens of, millions of dollars, even if the engine itself has no cost. For this game it is a bit over the top… And how much you may want this change, it is most likely not happening. Devs already stated it isn’t that easy and you should consider the fact DX 12 is NO PART OF ANY GAME. It allows for easier use of available hardware, but in the case of GW2 all hardware it needs is accessed already by directx 9. The old engine cannot make use of more.

DirectX is used by programmers to allow a program to work on different build computers, but using directx12 on a PC doesn’t allow a directX 9 program to work miracles. In effect the new features directx12 provides isn’t compatible and/or neccesary and therefore not used and only the legacy directx 9 components will be used.

SO:
We have the game in 32 and 64 bit which accesses a game engine to create graphics
We have a really old game engine, updated, but still LEGACY! running on directx 9.0c
We will not have an updated game-engine anywhere soon (well likely, as devs said so) and thus we will be locked into directx 9.

We might have acces to directx 12 compatibility on computers 2-4 years old, allowing for partial directx 12 support but not by default
We might have acces to directx 12 True on computers 1 -2 year old for full directx 12 support, but not by default
We have acces to directx 12 software when running Windows 10, by default.
Direct X 12 only helps with the acces and ways to acces hardware, but if the program doesn’t use the features, any investments into allowing DX12 compatibility is/are useless…
Even if we have DX12 in all previous 3 questrions the game still is DX9 due to its game engine and it will stay directx 9.0….for now.

The End. At least for now.

Would utilizing a VM to create 2 virtual cores (from the 6 physcial or 12 virtual ones in my PC) work to improve performance? and have a virtual machine handle the datastreams?

you say that this game was made for speed in mind in the ghz of the processor. I do not agree with that. since multithreading and multiple core was out when the game was release. cpu heat problem was all ready know before that. I can understand that they said the new dual core as communication issue and does not solve the speed issue. and they have continue to build it single core. I don’t think that they have not plan a head and say what if we need a multicore engine in the future and made the engine to be able to be upgraded since the industry was moving in that direction when they where building gw .2. and the cpu communication with the gpu is the api. that is what dx 12 will fix. since the devs will write smarter code that will not have to stop at the api to be validated since the devs will have validated it before it reach the api. that is the improvement that dx 12 brings. better communication between cpu core and gpu core. less slow down and cpu bound issue do to less job on the api. right now the api need to validate the code and direct it. same as a cop(api) doing traffic that would have some car stopping to ask him if they are going at the right place. and would need to validate all the info and send them in the right direction. by removing that job from the api there is less slow down and having multiple cpu core to multiple core gpu communication also help the flow of information. of course the complexity for the devs is higher and the responsibility also will be higher since the api will not validate the code of the devs, the devs will validate is own code before hand. meaning more testing.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Wow. Guess my post was confusing.

When stating “that’s why they own multi-m/billion game companies”, I was referring to the armchair devs (forum posters) who know best.

Perhaps the poster(s) in this thread who have superior knowledge can get a job at ArenaNet or merge their companies.

Sorry for the confusion.

I.. don’t know what to say. Your post was fine. And funny. I can’t believe it caused confusion. Guess it’s not safe to joke without using the ‘/s’ anymore. O_o

stephanie wise.7841:

well most people do not know what is the difference between the dx version and what it means for the game in the first place. so to have a big number of people to vote on this with out knowing what it is about is kind like of hard. you would have to first explain that the games run on dx 9 what is the drawcall limit and limitation of dx 9. then do the same with dx 12 and what it would help the game with like the cpu bound…..
WALL OF TEXT
WALL OF TEXT
WALL OF TEXT

Seriously Stephanie.. you need to format your posts better. I can’t read them as they are, and apparently they’re full of fantasy that I’m missing out on. I like fantasy.