Guild Wars 2

The fundamental question that one should ask is, are we suppose to be running diverse builds in the game? If no, why are the so many different stat combinations in the game? If yes, why are we inherently limited by the process of gearing?

The idea that you can roll a guardian, level him up and try out different stat combinations and builds to tackle content sounds nice and to a limited extent it is what we do.

But if I wanted to mix and match berserker, knights and soldiers gear, how does the game help me do this? It doesn’t, because I need to get every single piece for each stat totalling up to 42 pieces of gear not even counting variations on runes, in order to try the combinations.

Now in practice this is stupid because you can use a website like intothemists.com to calculate the stats with different gear. But this raises another question, is it intended for players to externally rather than in game?

Every time I think of a build, I’m reluctant to try it, not because I don’t want to grind the gear but because I need more bank space just to store the gear for that build. It makes more sense to have “one build for all” rather than many different specialised builds because in the latter, you storage will be littered with gear.

This to me is the biggest disincentive. I currently use soldiers armour with berserker trinkets in WvW on my warrior. I have theory that valkyrie armour with cavaliers trinkets will get me more burst damage but I don’t want to try it, why? More storage is needed, unless I plan to salvage my first set. The more builds I want to try, the more storage I need for the gear. And because of this I’m less likely to try.

I’m reluctant to grind for that many armor pieces. In fact I don’t want to grind at all for my build diversity. This is one thing I find difficult to understand about Guild Wars 2 due to how ANet learned to implement build diversity into the original. Who actually wants to waste time grinding to make a build as effective as it can be? Isn’t it obvious that people want to be able to get instant results out from their theory crafting and not have to wait to grind for exotics/ascended? Vertical progression is the dumbest waste of time I’ve ever experienced. There’s nothing I’ve experienced in game design that is more frustrating.

You can test stats, runes and sigils with different builds in the Heart of the Mists for free. Crossed sword icon upper left on your screen. There’s golem targets, profession targets and even a boss to try it on. Or you can jump in a hot join match to see how it plays live against other players.

Hope that helps!

Heart of the Mists is inadequate because if I where to ask you to find me a setup that replicates, Berserker chest, leggings and shoulders, Knights helm, gloves and boots. You won’t be able to because sPvP doesn’t give such fine flexibility. Knights stat is also had vitality instead of toughness in sPvP so you are already limited there.

Plus you can’t actually test it in real scenarios in WvW or PvE

defrule.7236:

Heart of the Mists is inadequate because if I where to ask you to find me a setup that replicates, Berserker chest, leggings and shoulders, Knights helm, gloves and boots. You won’t be able to because sPvP doesn’t give such fine flexibility. Knights stat is also had vitality instead of toughness in sPvP so you are already limited there.

Lets give all players all they want.. Because they are inclined to play the game their way. I WANT 3 LEGENDARIES NAOW.

Anet Why do I have to even play you’r game? Why are you forcing me to play this game?

This attitude, really… I get it for accesories. But armor? Really?

In GW1 we still had gear but it wasn’t nearly as influential as gear in GW2. In GW1 build experimenting largely involved changing your skill bar. Worse comes to worse if your build fails at least your skill bar didn’t take up inventory space.

Here in GW2 it’s different. Want to try a healing build guardian? You need clerics or magi gear.
The build works great! Another set of gear to store in the bags.
The build is crap! Either keep the junk taking up space or salvage the hours you spent getting the gear.

defrule.7236:

In GW1 we still had gear but it wasn’t nearly as influential as gear in GW2. In GW1 build experimenting largely involved changing your skill bar. Worse comes to worse if your build fails at least your skill bar didn’t take up inventory space.

Here in GW2 it’s different. Want to try a healing build guardian? You need clerics or magi gear.
The build works great! Another set of gear to store in the bags.
The build is crap! Either keep the junk taking up space or salvage the hours you spent getting the gear.

I would love to see GW1 reskinned as GW2, but it’s not. It’s a new game. Thinking about GW1 makes me sad when I play GW2…

You can try the different specs in PvP, asking anything more than that.. I think is unreasonable, IMO.

Edit; Haha wonder how much whining it would be if we had the same skills as GW1 in GW2, them RA matches with Necro’s and mesmer while playing anything melee based:D

if you’re min/max’ing in GW2, you’re going to have a bad time.

Pandeh.5248:

defrule.7236:

Heart of the Mists is inadequate because if I where to ask you to find me a setup that replicates, Berserker chest, leggings and shoulders, Knights helm, gloves and boots. You won’t be able to because sPvP doesn’t give such fine flexibility. Knights stat is also had vitality instead of toughness in sPvP so you are already limited there.

Lets give all players all they want.. Because they are inclined to play the game their way. I WANT 3 LEGENDARIES NAOW.

Anet Why do I have to even play you’r game? Why are you forcing me to play this game?

This attitude, really… I get it for accesories. But armor? Really?

You are not interpreting my thread right, no one is asking for anything right now. I just want flexibility on the things I acquire.

Did you know on my guardian, I have many sets of gear.

1. Soldier’s armour with soldier runes
2. Soldier’s armour with boon duration runes
3. Knight’s armour with soldier runes

1. Soldier trinkets with ruby orbs
2. Ascended celestials

1. Soldier greatsword with sigil of fire
2. Soldier greatsword with sigil or perception
3. Knights greatsword with sigil of accuracy
4. Berserker greatsword with sigil of fire
5. Soldier staff of (endurance on kill)
6. Berserker hammer of fire
7. Knights hammer of perception

Getting tedious? No?

Happyfool.8951:

if you’re min/max’ing in GW2, you’re going to have a bad time.

It’s not about min/maxing, it’s more about having the right gear for the right purpose.

A player who likes to PvE and WvW for instance needs at least two sets of gear and that is assuming there is only one style of play for each game mode.

They are already planning to add stat changing flexibility to legendaries. If only they could add the same feature to other parts of gear but with some form of earning system it would be great. You would still have to get the gear but it just means you have an easier time experimenting.

I’ve wondered this since day 1. A majority of the stat points are dedicated to gear while only a minimal amount are dedicated to traits yet we are advised that trait selection along with weapon type is where the build diversity lies.

On top of that we are charged for trait respeccing.

And people wonder why players default to the same meta builds and feel a lack of diversity. They are encouraged by game mechanics not to change.

defrule.7236:

Happyfool.8951:

if you’re min/max’ing in GW2, you’re going to have a bad time.

It’s not about min/maxing, it’s more about having the right gear for the right purpose.

A player who likes to PvE and WvW for instance needs at least two sets of gear and that is assuming there is only one style of play for each game mode.

They are already planning to add stat changing flexibility to legendaries. If only they could add the same feature to other parts of gear but with some form of earning system it would be great. You would still have to get the gear but it just means you have an easier time experimenting.

Well, so it all comes down to inventory space?

1 greatsword in inventory; Right click; change skin; change stats.

Can’t really see them doing this for all items. Even if you have to buy the certain stats and skins.

Would been nice though.

I have felt limited in build diversity for other reasons. If you want to change stats after you start the ascended gear grinding you are ‘out of luck’. That is a lot of wasted time if you realize your build has been neutered/negated in the last balance patch. Or you just feel it’s boring and would like to try out new builds. The Heart of the Mists is a good place to get familiar with it, but not a proper substitute.
BUT did you see the mention of Legendary armor. Colin said it wouldn’t be implemented anytime soon. Quote:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Is-legendary-armor-coming-out/first
“You won’t see legendary armor any time soon, you will see Ascended Armor in 2013 for sure though, yes.”

However, when it is, how much do you want to bet that the stats can be changed just like the legendary weapon’s stats? At that point it’s only a matter of switching out your runes.
As someone that hasn’t gotten even close to a legendary though I began at head-start; I won’t be getting legendary armor either. Just thought I’d mention that legendary armor is in the game database and is on the table for the future. If you like to switch out your stats, well then there is your pinnacle of armor. Whether it actually makes it in, is anybody’s guess.

Well it’s a good thing that the most you’ll need unless you’re a min-maxer like me is two armour sets

I think I get what you’re after OP. You want to go back to the GW1 style where the main chunk of the armor stats where done with runes and insignia, and weapons had prefix, suffix, and inscription mods. Things you could easily find or buy the upgrade component for and swap out, either by overriding it or by using a perfect salvage kit to remove it and not lose it or the item it came off of.

While that system was nice, and very flexible in GW1 (although we didn’t have perf salvage until EotN), I don’t think it works here. It would sort of bone crafting. Not to mention that there is a little ‘more’ to stats on the armor in this game than there was in GW1.

I don’t min-max and I don’t have this problem. I really wonder how much of an issue it is for the entire playerbase.

I agree with the OP to a point. I do think Guild Wars 2 discourages experimentation. You have to go to some NPC, reset your traits, and even change your armor and jewelry at times.

The only thing I disagree with here is that the OP says you need full sets of armor to try stuff out. This I disagree with.

I generally look at the totals of my stats and I generally weight them. On some of my characters I’ll weight to power, precision and crit damage, on other characters, power, toughness vitality, depending on their ability to survive. When I want to change stuff, I don’t worry about exactly numbers, I slowly change one piece at a time, raising on stat at time.

Because the truth is, you’re never going to KNOW that this is absolutely the best thing it can be. This isn’t a game of exacts. It’s a game of approximates. As long as I lean toward what I’m trying to do, my builds work fine, without specifically have X or Y.

I think your best on equipment going all zerker and if you need something different adjust your traits, its the cheaper option, than changing your equipment.

When it comes to games, you quickly find that design and implementation are 2 different things.

GW2 was designed to have multiple useful builds which would allow people to be creative and have diverse teams. GW2 was implemented so that everyone should run zerker gear with builds that compliment that gear at all times.

I think that it’s not that the devs intended it to be this way… it’s just how it happened :-\

Meglobob.8620:

I think your best on equipment going all zerker and if you need something different adjust your traits, its the cheaper option, than changing your equipment.

Sadly that seems to be the truth. I say sadly because this is what actually limits diversity.
Character classes in this game are mostly fluff and because of that it’s turned into a one-size-fits-all situation. Which is too bad because it actually takes a lot of diversity out of the game.

Gehenna.3625:

Meglobob.8620:

I think your best on equipment going all zerker and if you need something different adjust your traits, its the cheaper option, than changing your equipment.

Sadly that seems to be the truth. I say sadly because this is what actually limits diversity.
Character classes in this game are mostly fluff and because of that it’s turned into a one-size-fits-all situation. Which is too bad because it actually takes a lot of diversity out of the game.

You could just test builds using greens… you take a known build using greens and use that as your baseline… test it out, see how it feels, how difficult content seems to be. Then try out your new build, if it is as difficult or less, than you know your build with that gear is good (otherwise it’s not and not worth the investment). Things don’t need to be measured for their true value so to speak, just measured comparatively.

Well there’s not much PvE diversity, true, but all the other gear types see a ton of use in PvP and WvW.

GW2 is about gear, not fun.
GW1 was about fun, not gear.

Castaliea.3156:

GW2 is about gear, not fun.
GW1 was about fun, not gear.

You might think that’s the case, but I don’t find it so. I find both games to be fun and I don’t overly worry about gear.

Agreed OP. A lot of the direction your build goes comes from your equipped gear. I’d like to experiment with different builds sometimes, but I don’t want to get new (expensive) gear to do so. As others mentioned it distracts from the fun and forces you to keep extra gear in inventory. They are planning implement out of combat stat changes for legendaries in the future so clearly the technical ability will be there. Why not extend that functionality to all gear?

Castaliea.3156:

GW2 is about gear, not fun.
GW1 was about fun, not gear.

So you can’t have good gear and have fun?

colesy.8490:

Castaliea.3156:

GW2 is about gear, not fun.
GW1 was about fun, not gear.

So you can’t have good gear and have fun?

They’re making more and more content which requires, or at least tries, to make you change up your builds and experiment with different play styles. You add that with incredibly time gated gear and between skill updates, content, and additional characters yes, the game is about gear.

Vayne.8563:

I generally look at the totals of my stats and I generally weight them. On some of my characters I’ll weight to power, precision and crit damage, on other characters, power, toughness vitality, depending on their ability to survive. When I want to change stuff, I don’t worry about exactly numbers, I slowly change one piece at a time, raising on stat at time.

Except it doesn’t work at all when you want to try some completely different build like going from a direct damage to a condition damage build. The later will feel completely useless until you’ve replaced the majority of your gear.

Ideally a feature I would like to see is one where you get the stats and it can be put into a “right-click menu” as someone suggested above. The more stats you collect, the bigger your “right-click menu” will become so it’s a bit like the upcoming Legendary system but lesser in that you need to acquire the stats manually.

So think about it this way, you right-click on your weapon, there are three menu items, one to change skin, one to change stat and another to change rune or sigil. They could even make this feature gem based.

Think as an analogy about dyes. You might buy a dye for 50g and find you regret it, but at least it isn’t a physical item clogging up space in your inventory. Suppose that it was a physical item, you are left with a choice of leaving it or deleting your 50g investment.

The very thing happens with gear, things simply get tedious when you play more and more setups. In practice players usually have a manageable number of sets so the problem doesn’t really show itself but nonetheless, the system should scale. If the game mechanics support so many different combinations, the gearing system should have provisions to complement it.

I think skins are basically the exact same problem in a different context. With many different skins being released with living world updates, players are finding it hard to collect the skins. Maybe they expect us to have the same weapons with different skins littered in our inventory but obviously this is tedious and is why threads have popped up on this issue.

they should add gear templates, even if payed cash.
they should burn trait npc and make it work like infinite salvage kit, Xc per respec.
they should make most skins far more hard to get but make them feely swappable (ya know they are skins not gear!).
they hould stop to rely on drops while give us something to unlock

and i just started a month ago to play gw1 so i’m not a nostalgic fanboy is just common sense.

all this options, ofc, i mean as cash shop features.
i wouldn’t mind to pay few dollars for such features, definetly .
i won’t pay for a greatsword that looks like a “kitten machine” (adults will understand what i’m refering to lol).
and for abbadon sake don’t you dare releasing another quaggan backpice!

Castaliea.3156:

colesy.8490:

Castaliea.3156:

GW2 is about gear, not fun.
GW1 was about fun, not gear.

So you can’t have good gear and have fun?

They’re making more and more content which requires, or at least tries, to make you change up your builds and experiment with different play styles. You add that with incredibly time gated gear and between skill updates, content, and additional characters yes, the game is about gear.

I disagree completely. On my main, I have 9 armorsets. Each one is different (although I have 2 berserker sets and 1 valkyrie set). While I have made each of them for different purposes, I’m always drawn back to my Giver’s set. Not because it has useful stats (no, it has the worst stat spread out of all my sets) but because I enjoy the runes and the look. In fact, I have created a special “pug runner” build to compliment this specific armorset.

It doesn’t deal direct damage. It doesn’t deal condition damage. It does, however, allow me to utilize my utility (hah, utilize utility) to the fullest I possibly can. In fact, with my traits, I can be a near-perma stealther. I can be a boon sharer (25 stacks of 20 seconds of might). I can be a mantra-healer. I can be a glamour build (without the conditions attached).

So why do I wear it? Because I like running around with 76% boon duration (before food and utilities, which could potentially bring it to 126% if I had a warrior with me). Because I like the way it looks. Because I don’t particularly care about wearing full zerker in a situation that doesn’t require me to do so (aka not CoF p1).

I run Arah paths daily (at least, I used to until these past few days where I’ve burned out) with pugs. Which set do I run with? That’s right, my terrible, terrible Giver’s set with the terrible, terrible runes attached. Why? Because I’m running with PUGs. I don’t expect the group to be about the super speed run. I expect all groups to take 2 hours for each path ankitten ot surprised when they are done faster.

The game is only what you make it to be. If you look at the game as a grind, then it will be a grind. If you look at the game as a failure, then it is a failure. If you look at the game as a success, then it is a success. If you look at the game as fun, then it is fun.

callidus.7085:

Gehenna.3625:

Meglobob.8620:

I think your best on equipment going all zerker and if you need something different adjust your traits, its the cheaper option, than changing your equipment.

Sadly that seems to be the truth. I say sadly because this is what actually limits diversity.
Character classes in this game are mostly fluff and because of that it’s turned into a one-size-fits-all situation. Which is too bad because it actually takes a lot of diversity out of the game.

You could just test builds using greens… you take a known build using greens and use that as your baseline… test it out, see how it feels, how difficult content seems to be. Then try out your new build, if it is as difficult or less, than you know your build with that gear is good (otherwise it’s not and not worth the investment). Things don’t need to be measured for their true value so to speak, just measured comparatively.

You are talking to the wrong person. I am just saying that it’s sad that there is one set of stats that’s best for all…I am not concerned about the investment.

If anything it would be better if you needed to invest in armour for various builds, but as those builds are not as strong most people don’t care and it all seems a bit pointless to do so.

Esplen.3940:

Castaliea.3156:

colesy.8490:

Castaliea.3156:

GW2 is about gear, not fun.
GW1 was about fun, not gear.

So you can’t have good gear and have fun?

They’re making more and more content which requires, or at least tries, to make you change up your builds and experiment with different play styles. You add that with incredibly time gated gear and between skill updates, content, and additional characters yes, the game is about gear.

I disagree completely. On my main, I have 9 armorsets. Each one is different (although I have 2 berserker sets and 1 valkyrie set). While I have made each of them for different purposes, I’m always drawn back to my Giver’s set. Not because it has useful stats (no, it has the worst stat spread out of all my sets) but because I enjoy the runes and the look. In fact, I have created a special “pug runner” build to compliment this specific armorset.

I think you missed “time gated”.

/thread

Castaliea.3156:

Esplen.3940:

Castaliea.3156:

colesy.8490:

Castaliea.3156:

GW2 is about gear, not fun.
GW1 was about fun, not gear.

So you can’t have good gear and have fun?

They’re making more and more content which requires, or at least tries, to make you change up your builds and experiment with different play styles. You add that with incredibly time gated gear and between skill updates, content, and additional characters yes, the game is about gear.

I disagree completely. On my main, I have 9 armorsets. Each one is different (although I have 2 berserker sets and 1 valkyrie set). While I have made each of them for different purposes, I’m always drawn back to my Giver’s set. Not because it has useful stats (no, it has the worst stat spread out of all my sets) but because I enjoy the runes and the look. In fact, I have created a special “pug runner” build to compliment this specific armorset.

I think you missed “time gated”.

/thread

Oh, I have full Ascended and a Celestial armorset, I also blew 190 Laurels on unidyes instead of getting more trinkets since I don’t care to fill my inventory/bank with even more items.

When I did run Conditions with one of my Condition sets, I ran with Masterwork (green) trinkets and did just fine.

If we do the math on Masterwork Condition Damage Trinkets, we can see the difference in damage.

Each Ring is 55 stats (110 total).
Each Accessory is 46 stats (92 total).
The Backpiece is 18 stats (18 total).
The Necklace is 73 stats (73 total).

The jewel can be a masterwork or exotic jewel. In regards to Masterwork it would be 18. If it were Exotic, it would be 25. Let’s do the math for both.

110 + 92 + 18 + 73 + 18 * 6 = 401
110 + 92 + 18 + 73 + 25 * 6 = 443

With 0 Condition Damage…
Bleeding will deal 43/stack/second
Burning will deal 328/second
Poison will deal 84/second
Confusion will deal 130/stack/skill
Torment will deal 32 or 65 depending on movement per stack per second.

With 401 Condition Damage…
Bleeding: 63
Burning: 428
Posion: 124
Confusion: 190
Torment: 47 or 95

With 443 Condition Damage…
Bleeding: 65
Burning: 439
Posion: 128
Confusion: 196
Torment: 49 or 98 (both rounded up)

With full Exotics, you’re looking at 508 Condition Damage which would convert to
Bleeding: 68
Burning: kitten
Poison: 135
Confusion: 206
Torment: 51 or 102

With full Ascended, you’re looking at 570 Condition Damage which would convert to
Bleeding: 71
Burning: 471
Poison: 141
Confusion: 216
Torment: 53 or 107 (rounded up)

Looking at full Ascended to Masterwork side by side:
Bleeding: 63 vs 71
Burning: 428 vs 471
Poison: 124 vs 141
Confusion: 190 vs 216
Torment: 47 or 95 vs 53 or 107

The damage is negligible.

So please, stop throwing around time-gated as if it’s the advent of the apocalypse. Also, Celestial gear (which is time-gated) is so defined in it’s use (yea, the set that uses everything has very few uses) that it’s hardly fair to call it unfair time-gating as you’d need to theorycraft your build to accommodate the gear, not just slap it on and then start tweaking your build.

In fact, a lot of your gear-related problems can be solved if you just sat down with a calculator and did the math on what gear you should wear before buying it all. You can make slight modifications afterwards (when you’re actually working for your gear).

Oh, that reminds me, if you are going to sit down and theorycraft a build, when you start working for your gear, don’t just buy it off the TP or craft it. Make it through dungeon tokens (if you can). This lets you test your build even if you don’t have the appropriate gear. You will make tweaks to it, I assure you.

EDIT:
/thread

Are you running naked? Where are the stats from your armor and weapon? You only mentioned the condition damage you get from trinkets.

stof.9341:

Are you running naked? Where are the stats from your armor and weapon? You only mentioned the condition damage you get from trinkets.

Because my, specifically, armor was Exotic in all test-cases and therefore I ignored it. If you would like to do the math on full-Masterworks vs full-Exotic, feel free to do so.

Additionally, the main beef people have with time-gated is Ascended, which is not available on armor (yet). Exotic armor is ridiculously easy to obtain, and, in my gearing of alternate characters, trinkets are the part that I dread.

defrule.7236:

Pandeh.5248:

defrule.7236:

Heart of the Mists is inadequate because if I where to ask you to find me a setup that replicates, Berserker chest, leggings and shoulders, Knights helm, gloves and boots. You won’t be able to because sPvP doesn’t give such fine flexibility. Knights stat is also had vitality instead of toughness in sPvP so you are already limited there.

Lets give all players all they want.. Because they are inclined to play the game their way. I WANT 3 LEGENDARIES NAOW.

Anet Why do I have to even play you’r game? Why are you forcing me to play this game?

This attitude, really… I get it for accesories. But armor? Really?

You are not interpreting my thread right, no one is asking for anything right now. I just want flexibility on the things I acquire.

Did you know on my guardian, I have many sets of gear.

1. Soldier’s armour with soldier runes
2. Soldier’s armour with boon duration runes
3. Knight’s armour with soldier runes

1. Soldier trinkets with ruby orbs
2. Ascended celestials

1. Soldier greatsword with sigil of fire
2. Soldier greatsword with sigil or perception
3. Knights greatsword with sigil of accuracy
4. Berserker greatsword with sigil of fire
5. Soldier staff of (endurance on kill)
6. Berserker hammer of fire
7. Knights hammer of perception

Getting tedious? No?

Ascended armor is going to be a blast, no?

Nice selective math you have there. You say 63 vs 71 is negligible for bleeding? How about a 200 damage per tick? Because that’s the difference when you’re talking about 25 stacks. Expect that to more than double once you add armor weapon and runes. That is not negligible, period. /thread (lol at tryhards who actually use that like it means something.)

Esplen.3940:

Castaliea.3156:

Esplen.3940:

Castaliea.3156:

colesy.8490:

Castaliea.3156:

GW2 is about gear, not fun.
GW1 was about fun, not gear.

So you can’t have good gear and have fun?

They’re making more and more content which requires, or at least tries, to make you change up your builds and experiment with different play styles. You add that with incredibly time gated gear and between skill updates, content, and additional characters yes, the game is about gear.

I disagree completely. On my main, I have 9 armorsets. Each one is different (although I have 2 berserker sets and 1 valkyrie set). While I have made each of them for different purposes, I’m always drawn back to my Giver’s set. Not because it has useful stats (no, it has the worst stat spread out of all my sets) but because I enjoy the runes and the look. In fact, I have created a special “pug runner” build to compliment this specific armorset.

I think you missed “time gated”.

/thread

Oh, I have full Ascended and a Celestial armorset, I also blew 190 Laurels on unidyes instead of getting more trinkets since I don’t care to fill my inventory/bank with even more items.

When I did run Conditions with one of my Condition sets, I ran with Masterwork (green) trinkets and did just fine.

If we do the math on Masterwork Condition Damage Trinkets, we can see the difference in damage.

Each Ring is 55 stats (110 total).
Each Accessory is 46 stats (92 total).
The Backpiece is 18 stats (18 total).
The Necklace is 73 stats (73 total).

The jewel can be a masterwork or exotic jewel. In regards to Masterwork it would be 18. If it were Exotic, it would be 25. Let’s do the math for both.

110 + 92 + 18 + 73 + 18 * 6 = 401
110 + 92 + 18 + 73 + 25 * 6 = 443

With 0 Condition Damage…
Bleeding will deal 43/stack/second
Burning will deal 328/second
Poison will deal 84/second
Confusion will deal 130/stack/skill
Torment will deal 32 or 65 depending on movement per stack per second.

With 401 Condition Damage…
Bleeding: 63
Burning: 428
Posion: 124
Confusion: 190
Torment: 47 or 95

With 443 Condition Damage…
Bleeding: 65
Burning: 439
Posion: 128
Confusion: 196
Torment: 49 or 98 (both rounded up)

With full Exotics, you’re looking at 508 Condition Damage which would convert to
Bleeding: 68
Burning: kitten
Poison: 135
Confusion: 206
Torment: 51 or 102

With full Ascended, you’re looking at 570 Condition Damage which would convert to
Bleeding: 71
Burning: 471
Poison: 141
Confusion: 216
Torment: 53 or 107 (rounded up)

Looking at full Ascended to Masterwork side by side:
Bleeding: 63 vs 71
Burning: 428 vs 471
Poison: 124 vs 141
Confusion: 190 vs 216
Torment: 47 or 95 vs 53 or 107

The damage is negligible.

So please, stop throwing around time-gated as if it’s the advent of the apocalypse. Also, Celestial gear (which is time-gated) is so defined in it’s use (yea, the set that uses everything has very few uses) that it’s hardly fair to call it unfair time-gating as you’d need to theorycraft your build to accommodate the gear, not just slap it on and then start tweaking your build.

In fact, a lot of your gear-related problems can be solved if you just sat down with a calculator and did the math on what gear you should wear before buying it all. You can make slight modifications afterwards (when you’re actually working for your gear).

Oh, that reminds me, if you are going to sit down and theorycraft a build, when you start working for your gear, don’t just buy it off the TP or craft it. Make it through dungeon tokens (if you can). This lets you test your build even if you don’t have the appropriate gear. You will make tweaks to it, I assure you.

EDIT:
/thread

Completely missed the point. That’s normal though.

vox.5019:

Nice selective math you have there. You say 63 vs 71 is negligible for bleeding? How about a 200 damage per tick? Because that’s the difference when you’re talking about 25 stacks. Expect that to more than double once you add armor weapon and runes. That is not negligible, period. /thread (lol at tryhards who actually use that like it means something.)

And how often can you hold 25 stacks of Bleeding? If you’ve already crafted your build to be able to maintain 25 stacks of Bleeding, then you should be working on your Ascended trinkets, not dillydallying in the sand with your Masterworks.

I’ll say it plainly for you to understand:

Use Masterwork items to test your build and refine your stat selection.

Use Exotics/Ascended once you’re comfortable with your build and selection.

What’s that, you say you can’t maintain 25 stacks of bleeding without being fully geared? Oh look at that, another point made for the other side, thank you very much.

And I feel so very sorry for anybody you pug with in masterworks and especially with the attitude that it is the way things should be done.

Not everyone enjoys champ farming all day for gold. Inflation is skyrocketing while gold income from sources other than zerg chains is hardly going up. Dungeon tokens are now time-gated to 180 per day and to be honest it’s more like 120 since most dungeons have that path that nobody wants to do.

But hey, it’s cool, you’re rich, you have your gear and plenty of tokens for new sets. Anybody who doesn’t is just wrong in their opinions and should be wearing VENDOR TRASH.

Esplen.3940:

If you’ve already crafted your build to be able to maintain 25 stacks of Bleeding, then you should be working on your Ascended trinkets, not dillydallying in the sand with your Masterworks.

This is the last post in the argument. (All you’ve resorted to now.)

And your point is ad hominem. I guess that puts us at an impasse until you decide to bring up a valid point.

I’d say the same to you. Let’s be clear on this, I rebuffed your number filled tryhard post by pointing out that your conclusion (that the difference is negligible) is actually incorrect. You countered with “if you have gear you should work on better gear.” How is that in any way relevant to the discussion? Mind blown buddy… mind blown…

Esplen.3940:

vox.5019:

Nice selective math you have there. You say 63 vs 71 is negligible for bleeding? How about a 200 damage per tick? Because that’s the difference when you’re talking about 25 stacks. Expect that to more than double once you add armor weapon and runes. That is not negligible, period. /thread (lol at tryhards who actually use that like it means something.)

And how often can you hold 25 stacks of Bleeding? If you’ve already crafted your build to be able to maintain 25 stacks of Bleeding, then you should be working on your Ascended trinkets, not dillydallying in the sand with your Masterworks.

I’ll say it plainly for you to understand:

Use Masterwork items to test your build and refine your stat selection.

Use Exotics/Ascended once you’re comfortable with your build and selection.

Two points:
1) How often do you only hold one bleeding stack? The damage difference is somewhere between 200 and 8 depending on the stacks. I would say it will usually be around 64-100 / second.

2) We don’t know what ascended armor will look like. But right now, trinkets make up a little less than half of all the stat points. So it’s reasonable to assume that ascended weapons and armor will make a bleeding tick difference increase from 8 to 16ish. or 16-400 / second. Probably somewhere between 128 and 200 typically.

You are being reasonable TooBz but I think your low end is too low. I can’t speak for all classes but I know that for mine 8 stacks is too low on anything but trash. Even without condition build or weapons that are made to apply conditions, 8 stacks is about what I maintain. In a condition setup the low end is more like 16-18 stacks.

The damage difference between a fully stacked Bleed stack (assuming you’re the one to own all 25 stacks) is 200 dps.

Full damage bleed stack differences are (since you guys are so keen on this point and this point only):
Bleeding 25 stacks: 1575 dps vs 1775 dps

Esplen.3940:

The damage difference between a fully stacked Bleed stack (assuming you’re the one to own all 25 stacks) is 200 dps.

Full damage bleed stack differences are (since you guys are so keen on this point and this point only):
Bleeding 25 stacks: 1575 dps vs 1775 dps

It’s more that I’m trying to figure out why I’m reluctant to view greens as a reasonable substitute for ascended gear during a testing and development phase of a build. (Bleeds are just an easy way to look at it.)

Looking at what you’ve said so far, it seems like 8 pts / tick difference or about 12% in overall damage.

Of course, the next question is, is that 12% significant enough to mess up testing.