Guild Wars 2

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/400463/Is-MMO-LvL-Progressions-too-fast.html

on MMORPG.com somebody made this thread talking about level speed.

Do you find some kind of relation to the MMO gamers in that discussion?

In other words, is leveling too fast for you?

If so, do you want slow grindy leveling?

If not, whats the cut off point of making leveling slower and more time consuming, yet not too slow and grindy?

Yah know… I can’t even say yes or no, and that’s just me talking.

Sometimes, I want to just push through leveling as fast as I can. Sometimes, I want to take my time and not worry about it.

It’s a bit of a Catch-22 from a developer’s perspective however, as most of your player base really just wants to get to max level and be done with it. As a result, it’s not really worth your time to invest too much assets making low and mid-level areas worth sticking around in because… well… your players aren’t going to want to stay there.

As a result, those areas tend to be the least fleshed out, prompting players to GTFO as fast as they can… and the circle continues.

For me it’s not so much “slow leveling” as it is “group gated leveling.” In the last MMO I played leveling was a chore because most of the population was at level cap and there was no one to do dungeons with to level up.

EDIT: It was LOTRO, in case anyone is wondering.

It depends. I hate leveling in games where I am constantly trying to get something that I am too low of a level to do/use yet. It feels like a chore that I have to go through before I can actually enjoy the game.

Others make it so you can be useful and have fun even if you have only been playing for a few weeks. Eve did this perfectly by not having levels at all and tying character power to skills you queue to level up on their own as you play. Everything has a certain time it takes to complete and while you can’t use the big complex ships for a while, they have a pvp system that actually encourages the use of cheap small newbie ships in a big way so you are never useless to anyone.

In short, I don’t mind slow leveling if I’m enjoying whats in arms reach instead of constantly staring longingly at the horizon. It should be part of the experience of the game, not a super boring training montage to the real fight.

I don’t play any other mmos anymore so I can’t comment on them but, in this particular game, I find leveling is a bit speedier than I’d like. I’ve slowed myself down by rotating through a roster of alts at different levels (6 at the moment). Grind is different for each individual and I’m finding, for me, that the six characters are feeling like a grind. Only a mild one but still grindy. I’m enjoying it though. When I get them to 80 I’ll start on four more and see if that feels any different.

Can you find your answers in this?

Leveling is totally useless imo. People who seek lore will discover them no matter questing exist or not. People who desire end-game will rush through low level content. So what is the point of leveling? To force player spend more time in game.

Ping.5739:

Leveling is totally useless imo. People who seek lore will discover them no matter questing exist or not. People who desire end-game will rush through low level content. So what is the point of leveling? To force player spend more time in game.

I don’t know… Leveling was some of my best experiences in GW2. It only really got to be a drag around level 70. But now that I am at end-game I just want to get alts to 80 as fast as possible.

I hate super slow leveling. It’s just too tedious. I really like the way Anet set up leveling in this game. It’s a reasonable pace and they offer multiple ways to level (pve, crafting, wvw). Plus no stupid leveling curve where it gets more and more horrible to level and you go on.

Yes, IMO. I mean thats the whole point of having levels, enjoying the progression through the game as you level up. Obtaining new and more awesome gear, etc etc. That’s essentially what keeps you playing.

Ping.5739:

Leveling is totally useless imo. People who seek lore will discover them no matter questing exist or not. People who desire end-game will rush through low level content. So what is the point of leveling? To force player spend more time in game.

I can quite honestly say that I’ve never played any sort of RPG that did not involve some sort of leveling. What should they do instead? I’m pretty satisfied by the concept of levels and leveling.

Ping.5739:

Leveling is totally useless imo. People who seek lore will discover them no matter questing exist or not. People who desire end-game will rush through low level content. So what is the point of leveling? To force player spend more time in game.

QFT.

Guild Wars 2 is currently what I’d call a Retroactive Sandbox because of downscaling. Once you hit 80, the game becomes excellent if you ignore rewards (which is unfortunately a difficult task for the average player). IMO, the game would have been better if it had been a full sandbox with no vertical progression at all. All content would have been equally playable and rewarding. All experiences in the beautiful world of Tyria would have been entirely up to the player. All that would have been lost is artificial numbers.

Come to think of it, much of Guild Wars 1 was effectively sandbox content. After Cantha was added, you could hit max level within hours and the addition of Hard Mode allowed all content to be challenging and rewarding – much like our downscaling. Guild Wars 1 had next to no gear grind, rendering its vertical progression almost non-existent. Interestingly enough, it’s PvE was viable – and even popular – until they stopped releasing expansions.

In games that have done expansions over the years, I enjoy leveling. Many, many levels were meant to be “endgame” and offer interesting and challenging content for that level, even it is not current “endgame”

In EQ2, “endgame” was level 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 92 and now 95. On alts I have yet to exhaust the ability to experience “new” content on a character 9 years after I started playing. Largely because.. all that content is still there to BE experienced from the perpective of different character paths and choices. I have several max level characters there. I also have a level 42 that is 4 years old.. because I level lock her every 5 levels to try and do every level appropriate quest and zone at every level. It is a monumental project.

I do content because content is fun. Regardless of level. Skipping content in a rush to endgame, to me, equals skipping “fun”.

Which is why I have a huge problem with GW2 and temporary content in place of expansions. This is a “do once” game that force focuses you on staying endgame
current on limited characters.

I also enjoyed the GW1 model, where 1-20 was basically a “tutorial”, and then you played the real game. 3 different expansions, new profs, so many possible prof combines and HM kept that game viable over many many years (and alts) without going stale.

I have 2 accts in EQ2 with a total of 16 characters. I have 2 accts in GW1 with a total of 21 characters. I see little reason for me to ever have a 2nd GW2 acct, and TBH, most of my 9 characters here log in and out at Ori nodes.. with little other reason to exist at this time.

I didn’t play Guild Wars 1 to level up, I don’t like leveling at all honestly. I am not playing Guild Wars 2 to level up either. It’s an unnecessary time gate preventing me from learning how to play a profession to it’s fullest potential, which is what is required to do the content that ANet wants people to repeatedly consume.

Finnway.2183:

Ping.5739:

Leveling is totally useless imo. People who seek lore will discover them no matter questing exist or not. People who desire end-game will rush through low level content. So what is the point of leveling? To force player spend more time in game.

I don’t know… Leveling was some of my best experiences in GW2. It only really got to be a drag around level 70. But now that I am at end-game I just want to get alts to 80 as fast as possible.

Yeah it was kinda fun for the first toon since everything was new to me. After that I realized it is the same press 1/F and press1/F again like another other mmorpgs out there. After playing so many mmorpgs, I have to say no matter how good the quests are, I hate leveling the most.

zenleto.6179:

Ping.5739:

Leveling is totally useless imo. People who seek lore will discover them no matter questing exist or not. People who desire end-game will rush through low level content. So what is the point of leveling? To force player spend more time in game.

I can quite honestly say that I’ve never played any sort of RPG that did not involve some sort of leveling. What should they do instead? I’m pretty satisfied by the concept of levels and leveling.

So why not try no leveling at all? It might break the current system and discover something new, right?

I could also guess why you are satisfied with leveling: feel of progression. One thing I need to point out is that the feeling can be obtained from various other activities. If you want to learn how to use the skills, an arena could do the job just fun. If you want to make friends, end-game content will have them waiting for you. If you want story and lore, doing it without such leveling system will yield the same result. This is why I don’t really see the point of have leveling system at all.

Someone mentioned EVE system for progression above, and I don’t really like it that much. Although the idea behind such skill tree is good, investing real time is just another way to “negatively” make players spend more time in the game(I do love using small ships that could have a big impact, but sometime I just feel size does matter and want to cruise a Battleship/Dreadnought in Jita).

I know that people see leveling as a common sense for mmo and I totally understand it since I am also a “victim” from WoW. My point actually is: if a mmo is immersive and interesting, it could do just well without such leveling mechanism.

Substance E.4852:

Others make it so you can be useful and have fun even if you have only been playing for a few weeks. Eve did this perfectly by not having levels at all and tying character power to skills you queue to level up on their own as you play. Everything has a certain time it takes to complete and while you can’t use the big complex ships for a while, they have a pvp system that actually encourages the use of cheap small newbie ships in a big way so you are never useless to anyone.

That doesn’t sound very perfect. That sounds like anyone who started playing the game earlier will be more or less automatically better than anyone who started playing later. That is worse than anyone who plays more being automatically better than someone who plays less.

As for the leveling rate. In GW2 it seems fine. In theory you should be spending the time leveling learning how to handle the class but it doesn’t work out that way.

I certainly do not miss spending month getting from max-1 to max level.

I don’t think levels are necessary but there would need to be either a very extensive tutorial or some other way to indicate “you probably shouldn’t try this until you are a bit more experienced”.

Khisanth.2948:

Substance E.4852:

Others make it so you can be useful and have fun even if you have only been playing for a few weeks. Eve did this perfectly by not having levels at all and tying character power to skills you queue to level up on their own as you play. Everything has a certain time it takes to complete and while you can’t use the big complex ships for a while, they have a pvp system that actually encourages the use of cheap small newbie ships in a big way so you are never useless to anyone.

That doesn’t sound very perfect. That sounds like anyone who started playing the game earlier will be more or less automatically better than anyone who started playing later. That is worse than anyone who plays more being automatically better than someone who plays less.

As for the leveling rate. In GW2 it seems fine. In theory you should be spending the time leveling learning how to handle the class but it doesn’t work out that way.

I certainly do not miss spending month getting from max-1 to max level.

I don’t think levels are necessary but there would need to be either a very extensive tutorial or some other way to indicate “you probably shouldn’t try this until you are a bit more experienced”.

Not at all. Some high tier ship classes can take months to train the specific skill lines for and are often too expensive for most combat where the risk of death is high enough to not warrant bringing in a ship worth so much.

It’s the cheap to produce mid level ships that are the backbone of most large scale fleet combat. Newbies are useful because fast, cheap to replace ships are perfect for snaring larger ships and the small cheap fast ship is the first real one you get as a new player. Not only can they do it out of the box, but it’s an essential role that you can’t do without or people could just warp away and you’d never kill them.

The other side of it being that the lowest level ore is the most used in the game so it always has a value to it so no matter your level you can make money with resource collecting if that’s your thing.

Things may have changed since i left but it’s a game where you can make money how you want while you play how you want as the skills you want train in the background independently.

It’s not a perfect game but it’s the only one I have ever run across besides GW1 that tried practical alternatives to the level/gear grind that every other MMO seems to think is mandatory these days. and is still chugging along years later and probably employs half the population of Iceland by now.

There are some achievements that can be only done with more than one toon. I happened to level a second toon to lvl 80 and I still need to do more events to get that achievement. Games are meant to kill time. How one kills time should be left up to each player.

Carnius Magius.8091:

There are some achievements that can be only done with more than one toon. I happened to level a second toon to lvl 80 and I still need to do more events to get that achievement. Games are meant to kill time. How one kills time should be left up to each player.

Games are mean to practice skills and to have fun with friends… I do not know what get you to thinking you will spend money on something that solely design for wasting your time. You could’ve earn more cash if you work on those hours, and maybe, find a good game that makes you happy by using the extra money you got.

I personally prefer a slower leveling process. I get more time to understand the mechanics of the game and the profession. I do not like a leveling curve, on the other hand. I want to spend (around) equal amounts per level. So, I think Anet did right there.

At least in GW2 it doesn’t really matter how fast you level. You can always go back and do something meaningful in lower level areas. I’ve played Aion and loved some of the lower leveled areas, but going back there simply made no sense. The only reason to back was to enjoy the view. And to grieve the lower level players because you were so overpowered you could simply one-shot all foes…

I certainly do not miss spending month getting from max-1 to max level.

I spend about 4 months to get my first character to lvl80… And loved every single minute of it…

Well my opinion is that levels are just about as kittenatan himself.

Raph Koster put up a nice article about it, and I agree with most of this reasoning:
http://www.raphkoster.com/2005/12/16/do-levels-suck/
http://www.raphkoster.com/2005/12/22/do-levels-suck-part-ii/

While Guild Wars 2 has addressed some of the problems with levelscaling, the most fundamental problems still remain. To be honest, there aren’t any good reasons to keep leveling and progression-through-stats in the game. I think that’s an even bigger problem: Items with increasingly better stats being added. Both levels and items can be removed in my opinion, and should be replaced by horizontal progression only (variation is skills for our characters to use, etc, like GW1).

Finnway.2183:

For me it’s not so much “slow leveling” as it is “group gated leveling.” In the last MMO I played leveling was a chore because most of the population was at level cap and there was no one to do dungeons with to level up.

EDIT: It was LOTRO, in case anyone is wondering.

I had the same feeling with Lotro, stopped playing somewhere level 30, level 40.

If levels are meaningful, they should remove. MMORPGs go the fast, steady leveling so you get that positive feedback that keeps people playing. And I absolutely hate it. Either don’t have levels at all, or if you do make it so that every single level is massively important (like in d20 style games).

If I am to decide, the leveling system in Guild Wars 1 was the best of all. All you had to do in order to level was complete the primary quests and the storyline. You could feel really useful and important, because your story evoluted and your character with it. There was also a ton of variety because of certain choices you could make AND the story itself was the main aspect of the game, meaning they had invested a lot of time in the story, making it 10x better than GW2 story. Also, 80 levels is waaay too much.

Guild Wars 1 leveling was excellent indeed. I do find the speed a little slow in Prophecies but perfect in Cantha. The latter leveling part was an extended tutorial. Leveling is fine IMHO in a tutorial since it allows the players to learn little by little about the game without getting overwhelmed with all the features at once from level 1.

Guild Wars 2 is I’d say guilty of failing that. Leveling is too long for little good reason and new players get overwhelmed with nearly everything at once before they even reach level 10.

stof.9341:

Guild Wars 1 leveling was excellent indeed. I do find the speed a little slow in Prophecies but perfect in Cantha. The latter leveling part was an extended tutorial. Leveling is fine IMHO in a tutorial since it allows the players to learn little by little about the game without getting overwhelmed with all the features at once from level 1.

Guild Wars 2 is I’d say guilty of failing that. Leveling is too long for little good reason and new players get overwhelmed with nearly everything at once before they even reach level 10.

That’s the point, I always enjoy the first 10 levels on new characters, the leveling speed seems to be a lot higher and you unlock new things all the time: weapon skills, weapon swaps, utilities, heals, you name it. Problem is, by the time I reach 20 I am an adept with that class already. I have leveled 8 characters to 80, 5 others in a range from 30-60.
It’s really boring after the initial rush.

i don’t like levels, i don’t see the point in them, it’s just lazy design to add levels to keep people playing and the more levels there are and the grindier they become just puts me off playing.

i’d rather see a good story than +1 level.

I never minded slow grindy leveling for years (when I was like 14 – 18). Hell I used to play MMOs that you’d spend months trying to get a level (eventually they updated and experience was lots easier). But the reason I did that? Because I had friends I enjoyed playing with and it made the experience more fun.

Nowadays though, I can’t even conceive the idea of doing that again. Maybe its because I’m older and have less time to sit around and do that, or don’t have as many friends to level with, etc. But its not something I enjoy to see if it occurs.

In comparison to my past experiences I think GW2 leveling speed is quite good considering the amount of levels you have to do. You can get experience in multiple ways and doing almost anything and it scales to your level to some degree so you are not really ever losing out. Where in a lot of older MMOs if you out level and area its a waste of time to even touch it.

I will agree that always in comparison another character is usually going to feel slow, and alt leveling is boring to some degree. I don’t think that is something any MMO can avoid entirely I don’t think.

In the long run I enjoy levels in RPGs and character development. But I don’t really think its always necessary either. I like ARPGs that give you hundreds of levels to eventually grind out on a character (though its very rare that people actually get that far before starting new characters), but I also like games like GW1 and others that have very few levels, and more story then the character development. I also enjoy RPGs that give you no levels entirely but more of a horizontal approach in multiple ways.