Guild Wars 2

I’m using the Claw of Jormag event as an example.

I know the event is optional — I’ve seen those words a billion times on this forum before. That’s my problem. Why would people do this to themselves for something that’s optional?

The moment I enter Frostgorge, I feel like I throw down my weapons and replace them with a shovel and plough. I respect the actual people that spend their time out in the fields in the sun, mud and the snow. But in a fantasy game environment, I find it extremely hard to believe anybody having any fun at all spending two hours fighting the same enemies for a tiny chance at getting anything good.

I’m here to play a game and kill me a dragon. I’m tired of feeling like the old couple in the painting below. I really don’t think this sort of “gimme your items” behavior belongs in a fantasy setting such as Tyria. It’s not heroic at all. The second you kill Zhaitan is the second you become an assembly line worker.

I hesitate to mention the Manifesto, but like, we’re totally grinding.

Wrong. You’re grinding. I’m having fun and being rewarded while doing what I want to do. Funny how opinions work, huh.

We want you to do whatever you want. We have spoken.

15 characters..

Jrunyon.3012:

Wrong. You’re grinding. I’m having fun and being rewarded while doing what I want to do. Funny how opinions work, huh.

Yeah it’s my opinion.
Explain to me how you’re having fun in an event that could potentially last 2 hours? Killing the same bad guys. I’m demoralized by it. I would like the actuall event if people wouldn’t draw it out trying to get yellows and such. I really, really, really, really do not want to sound mean — it just feels out of place and strange to me that people sit there for that long doing the same thing.

GW2 doesnt require grinding. ALL grinding in this game is optional. If you want a legendary, you might need to grind, but you dont need a legendary. If you want ascended gear, you might need to grind, but you dont need ascended gear. Grinding is only an issue if you need to grind to advance, which you dont.

By the same rational grinding is optional in every game.

Saelune.5316:

GW2 doesnt require grinding. ALL grinding in this game is optional. If you want a legendary, you might need to grind, but you dont need a legendary. If you want ascended gear, you might need to grind, but you dont need ascended gear. Grinding is only an issue if you need to grind to advance, which you dont.

I’m just having a really hard time understanding something here. For instance: have you seen the list of materials a legendary weapon needs? I understand that they are all optional, but I can’t seem to figure out why someone spend two hours fighting the same mobs to work towards that. I wanna play the RPG that ArenaNet made, not FarmVille. Like, the actual method of obtaining a legendary is the complete antithesis of what they said in the manifesto video. It’s like the shining example of what grinding is.
It’s boggling my mind.

Essence Snow.3194:

By the same rational grinding is optional in every game.

That would be true of content wasn’t gated by grinding. But aside from the higest level fractals, which was designed for those who like grind, you don’t need ascended gear to play anything in this game. You can WvW, SPvP and do anything else but high level fractals in PvE.

I was playing Rift and I couldn’t queue for a dungeon because I didn’t have enough focus. The game itself wouldn’t let me queue. I had to go farm that gear to participate.

That’s why it’s optional to farm/grind in Guild Wars 2.

You seem to think everyone fghts the Claw of Jormag all the time. I don’t. There are tons of events in this game that have nothing to do with fighting the Claw. If you choose to fight the Claw of Jormag (one of the 1500 plus events in the game) then you deal with the consequences.

There are very few events in this game that work like the Claw. Half a dozen maybe? A dozen. I guess the other 1500 events don’t count. Or the dungeons. Or the fractals. Or the living story. Or WvW.

There’s stuff to do. If some people find it fun to farm that stuff, let them farm that stuff. But if you don’t enjoy it, don’t farm that stuff yourself.

Vayne.8563:

You seem to think everyone fghts the Claw of Jormag all the time. I don’t.

I’m only listing this specific event as an example of what I’ve observed. I only ever do this event once, as well. But every time I do, without fail, the farmers are there to draw things out with an insatiable thirst for loot.

lolstabz.7026:

Vayne.8563:

You seem to think everyone fghts the Claw of Jormag all the time. I don’t.

I’m only listing this specific event as an example of what I’ve observed. I only ever do this event once, as well. But every time I do, without fail, the farmers are there to draw things out with an insatiable thirst for loot.

You’ve only ever done Jormag once, but every time you’ve done it, without fail, people are farming it.

So… you’ve done Jormag once…
The one time you were doing Jormag…
People were there…

Would you rather do Jormag solo?

Vayne, I think your attempt to discredit lol is disingenuous. You know what he means. It’s why we have sites like gw2stuff and massive lagfest events that test the stability of the servers. Of the 1500 events, there are roughly 1% that are frequented by, from my two world completion travels, likely 80-90% of active players at any moment.

It’s ridiculous to see large groups just standing at these events… It used to be a social environment, but now, very few people even have conversations beyond meow meow meow where is messy shadow b why is he late ? Meanwhile, a couple of well meaning souls, who still care to complete the pre events, make sure the lazy entitled masses get their Rares.

This is what we get from guaranteed rare chests at these events and literally meow all at everywhere else.

I am working on my third legendary, at a meager 100g/week, but tonight I went on WvW because, well seeing the KA guild event in Iron Marches where there were 10-15 commander tags gave me a good picture of what is happening in PVE.

I’m not leaving the game, I’m not complaining .. I’m saying lol has a valid question.

For me, 32 years of gaming has taught me: no matter what anyone tries, all games are a grind. ANet’s idea of continuously updating content is the best approach I’ve seen. Perhaps what the game needs is to have ALL content by temporary.,.The Claw of Jormag just got killed? Guess what.. He’s DEAD. No repeats of the event.

If ANet can keep up with that type of update schedule, we may have our first truly grind-free game.

As it is, I see the base events in the same light as the storyline. They are a warmup to the living story.

Living story events are a grind? Yes! Do I think that it will always be that way? No! But, it will take time for the teams to ease players into a new way of thinking.

Me, personally, I want to have a high score. I have a lifetime of that built into me..these many achievements are our score. Humankind had evolved because of that competitive desire (not only, but a big part of). If that wasn’t the case, the USA would not be the leading country that it is (I am not American.)

Back to the question…

I don’t feel that ANet WANTS us to grind as much as we, regardless of what our conscious minds contradict, are conditioned in games and real life, to grind.. And it will take time to wean us out of that rut.

(Why do I write these on my iPad?? It takes just as long to correct)

lolstabz.7026:

Vayne.8563:

You seem to think everyone fghts the Claw of Jormag all the time. I don’t.

I’m only listing this specific event as an example of what I’ve observed. I only ever do this event once, as well. But every time I do, without fail, the farmers are there to draw things out with an insatiable thirst for loot.

But that’s true in any game. Every game has farmers. Anet gave them places to congregate and they do. What’s wrong with that?

Allisa Wonderland.8192:

Vayne, I think your attempt to discredit lol is disingenuous. You know what he means. It’s why we have sites like gw2stuff and massive lagfest events that test the stability of the servers. Of the 1500 events, there are roughly 1% that are frequented by, from my two world completion travels, likely 80-90% of active players at any moment.

It’s ridiculous to see large groups just standing at these events… It used to be a social environment, but now, very few people even have conversations beyond meow meow meow where is messy shadow b why is he late ? Meanwhile, a couple of well meaning souls, who still care to complete the pre events, make sure the lazy entitled masses get their Rares.

This is what we get from guaranteed rare chests at these events and literally meow all at everywhere else.

I am working on my third legendary, at a meager 100g/week, but tonight I went on WvW because, well seeing the KA guild event in Iron Marches where there were 10-15 commander tags gave me a good picture of what is happening in PVE.

I’m not leaving the game, I’m not complaining .. I’m saying lol has a valid question.

For me, 32 years of gaming has taught me: no matter what anyone tries, all games are a grind. ANet’s idea of continuously updating content is the best approach I’ve seen. Perhaps what the game needs is to have ALL content by temporary.,.The Claw of Jormag just got killed? Guess what.. He’s DEAD. No repeats of the event.

If ANet can keep up with that type of update schedule, we may have our first truly grind-free game.

As it is, I see the base events in the same light as the storyline. They are a warmup to the living story.

Living story events are a grind? Yes! Do I think that it will always be that way? No! But, it will take time for the teams to ease players into a new way of thinking.

Me, personally, I want to have a high score. I have a lifetime of that built into me..these many achievements are our score. Humankind had evolved because of that competitive desire (not only, but a big part of). If that wasn’t the case, the USA would not be the leading country that it is (I am not American.)

Back to the question…

I don’t feel that ANet WANTS us to grind as much as we, regardless of what our conscious minds contradict, are conditioned in games and real life, to grind.. And it will take time to wean us out of that rut.

(Why do I write these on my iPad?? It takes just as long to correct)

I’m not being disingenuous at all. I really think you’re confusing your feelings about this with what the OP is actually asking. I answered what he asked, not what you said.

Yes, the meta events have been totally screwed by the current reward system. I knew it would happen as soon as Anet started giving better rewards. But then, the rewards before were completely unappealing and people were saying that they weren’t good enough which was also true. I’m not so sure there’s an easy answer to that.

But no, I wasn’t being disingenuous. If the OP meant what you said, it’s not what I got from his post.

Vayne.8563:

lolstabz.7026:

Vayne.8563:

You seem to think everyone fghts the Claw of Jormag all the time. I don’t.

I’m only listing this specific event as an example of what I’ve observed. I only ever do this event once, as well. But every time I do, without fail, the farmers are there to draw things out with an insatiable thirst for loot.

But that’s true in any game. Every game has farmers. Anet gave them places to congregate and they do. What’s wrong with that?

Man, I can see it now! Get your drops in Super Mario Bros! Shadow Broker’s up in ten minutes! I’m not expecting single-player quality here, but for a company that says they want to innovate — where is it? People are doing the same thing they would be doing in a different MMORPG and that’s getting drops. ArenaNet is on to something with these Living Stories and I hope we get something more than just a few sentences out of Ellen Kiel and then move back to the grinding. Because at the moment, role playing is hard in this game. No one cares about the events. No one seems to care that it’s a dragon attacking; I’m not even sure the event can fail.

lolstabz.7026:

Saelune.5316:

GW2 doesnt require grinding. ALL grinding in this game is optional. If you want a legendary, you might need to grind, but you dont need a legendary. If you want ascended gear, you might need to grind, but you dont need ascended gear. Grinding is only an issue if you need to grind to advance, which you dont.

I’m just having a really hard time understanding something here. For instance: have you seen the list of materials a legendary weapon needs? I understand that they are all optional, but I can’t seem to figure out why someone spend two hours fighting the same mobs to work towards that. I wanna play the RPG that ArenaNet made, not FarmVille. Like, the actual method of obtaining a legendary is the complete antithesis of what they said in the manifesto video. It’s like the shining example of what grinding is.
It’s boggling my mind.

I hear quite often that there are tons of better equipment than legendaries anyways that dont require the grind. Just because there is something in the game that gears towards grinding, doesnt mean the whole game has a grinding issue. People here have a hard time accepting that the whole game is not designed solely for that one person. (Apparent by all the complaints about WvW, achievement chests, team oriented dungeons, etc) I like collecting achievements. To actually get them all is rather grindy, but I dont have to get them. I certainly dont have to get them all, as there are tons of choices. In the end though, people need to realize even if they never get a legendary, or all the achievements, or something, they can still have a good time in the game. I think the real issue is people dont try to have fun in this game, or they think “if I have that sword, I will have fun” but its not.

lolstabz.7026:

Vayne.8563:

lolstabz.7026:

Vayne.8563:

You seem to think everyone fghts the Claw of Jormag all the time. I don’t.

I’m only listing this specific event as an example of what I’ve observed. I only ever do this event once, as well. But every time I do, without fail, the farmers are there to draw things out with an insatiable thirst for loot.

But that’s true in any game. Every game has farmers. Anet gave them places to congregate and they do. What’s wrong with that?

Man, I can see it now! Get your drops in Super Mario Bros! Shadow Broker’s up in ten minutes! I’m not expecting single-player quality here, but for a company that says they want to innovate — where is it? People are doing the same thing they would be doing in a different MMORPG and that’s getting drops. ArenaNet is on to something with these Living Stories and I hope we get something more than just a few sentences out of Ellen Kiel and then move back to the grinding. Because at the moment, role playing is hard in this game. No one cares about the events. No one seems to care that it’s a dragon attacking; I’m not even sure the event can fail.

You’re still only talking about a handful of events out of a whole game.

lolstabz.7026:

I’m using the Claw of Jormag event as an example.

I know the event is optional — I’ve seen those words a billion times on this forum before. That’s my problem. Why would people do this to themselves for something that’s optional?

The moment I enter Frostgorge, I feel like I throw down my weapons and replace them with a shovel and plough. I respect the actual people that spend their time out in the fields in the sun, mud and the snow. But in a fantasy game environment, I find it extremely hard to believe anybody having any fun at all spending two hours fighting the same enemies for a tiny chance at getting anything good.

I’m here to play a game and kill me a dragon. I’m tired of feeling like the old couple in the painting below. I really don’t think this sort of “gimme your items” behavior belongs in a fantasy setting such as Tyria. It’s not heroic at all. The second you kill Zhaitan is the second you become an assembly line worker.

I hesitate to mention the Manifesto, but like, we’re totally grinding.

No one told you to grind. No one required you to grind.

Ask yourself, why do you want to do it? If you have an answer, then ask yourself again – are you required to do it/have it?

If you answered yes on the last question, I want to know what is it that needs to be done/you need to have that requires grind. (take note, “need” not “want”)

If you answered no on the last question, then you can only blame yourself.

lolstabz.7026:

I hesitate to mention the Manifesto, but like, we’re totally grinding.

I agree. Considering the Manifesto’s claim about how they didn’t want us to grind, the amount of rewards focused on grinding in the game is staggering.

However, I’m not sure that was the opinion of the entirety of ArenaNet. You can easily see how they mentioned systems with less grind, and had those replaced by more grindy ones before release. For example, the dye system – it was originally meant to be account bound, and later it was changed to character bound. The dungeon token system – at first we were told we would get one armor piece per run, and later the system was changed so we would get only some tokens after a run.

I think not everyone in ArenaNet had the same opinion about how healthy grind is for a game. Unfortunatelly, those responsible for the reward system and for the crafting system were those who love grind, hence the amount of rewards for grinding being significantly higher than the rewards for everything else.

Erasculio.2914:

lolstabz.7026:

I hesitate to mention the Manifesto, but like, we’re totally grinding.

I agree. Considering the Manifesto’s claim about how they didn’t want us to grind, the amount of rewards focused on grinding in the game is staggering.

However, I’m not sure that was the opinion of the entirety of ArenaNet. You can easily see how they mentioned systems with less grind, and had those replaced by more grindy ones before release. For example, the dye system – it was originally meant to be account bound, and later it was changed to character bound. The dungeon token system – at first we were told we would get one armor piece per run, and later the system was changed so we would get only some tokens after a run.

I think not everyone in ArenaNet had the same opinion about how healthy grind is for a game. Unfortunatelly, those responsible for the reward system and for the crafting system were those who love grind, hence the amount of rewards for grinding being significantly higher than the rewards for everything else.

For the 87th time, the manifesto was talking about grinding to get to the fun stuff. It SAYS that. Then recalled the word grind a couple of lines later.

It’s clear as day. As long as people keep taking that line out of context, I’ll keep calling them on it.

Vayne.8563:

For the 87th time, the manifesto was talking about grinding to get to the fun stuff. It SAYS that. Then recalled the word grind a couple of lines later.

Irrelevant. You have been stating it over and over, trying to twist ArenaNet’s words to excuse how they went back on their design philosophy about the game. As much as I listen to your opinion regarding some other topics, I’ll continue ignoring your excuses about the Manifesto as sycophantism.

But that’s true in any game. Every game has farmers. Anet gave them places to congregate and they do. What’s wrong with that?

I’m not sure where Anet wants farmers to congregate. I like to farm every once in awhile.

Erasculio.2914:

Vayne.8563:

For the 87th time, the manifesto was talking about grinding to get to the fun stuff. It SAYS that. Then recalled the word grind a couple of lines later.

Irrelevant. You have been stating it over and over, trying to twist ArenaNet’s words to excuse how they went back on their design philosophy about the game. As much as I listen to your opinion regarding some other topics, I’ll continue ignoring your excuses about the Manifesto as sycophantism.

I’m speaking English, yoiu’re taking one line out of context. There’s no other way to describe taking one line out of the paragraph and refusing to acknowledge the preceding line. I’ve talked to a whole lot of people about this…people with no agenda whatsoever.

Anet defined what it meant by grind then used the word grind again. If you ignore how they first defined it (and subsequently explained it) then you’re just being disingenuous.

And here is another complain post with absolutely no suggestions or intellegent solutions to the OP’s percieved problem.

Another post where the OP for some reason thinks this MMO should play like Skyrm or The Last of Us or some other single player game with a progressing story line that goes start to finish with no real need to ‘grind’ or deviate from that story line at all.

I start to wonder if the people who make this complaint have ever played an MMO before. It is not how an MMo work.

You keep going back to the Manifesto and because it mentions in there that we shouldn’t have to ‘grind to the fun stuff’. It doesn’t really matter how you interpret this the fact is there is some ‘grind’ in all MMO.

The use of the word has changed over the years. I can’t imagine any of the players complaining about grind now having ever played games like Asheron’s Call.

The fact is, there is no such thing as an MMO with out grind, especially when you start referring to any repeatable content as a grind.

I ran the sanctum sprint 50+ times. You might call that a grind, I was just playing the game.

I do many of the world events once per day. You may call that a grind, I call it my daily events.

You can call dungeons a grind because you have to do them more then once to accumulate tokens.

So I guess I’ll take the liberty of answering the OP’s question. YES, you have to grind.

As for the manifesto, personally I say who cares what it says, or more accurately, what it said. I really find it funny the people that seem to have the manifesto printed out and framed hanging above their computer monitor and scrutinize every piece of content against it and then come to their forms like they think they’ve ‘caught’ A net on an infraction of some legally binding document.

I have news for you. The A Net devs aren’t doing that, so I am not sure why you are.

That being said, for many of us the manifesto rings true. It says something to the effect of ‘not having to grind to the fun stuff’. Key phrasing here is ’*TO* the fun the stuff.

To me leveling is fun, dungeons are fun, world events are fun. So from the time I started playing guild wars there was nothing I had to grind in order to access that fun content.

When I do encounter things that I don’t find fun, or don’t want to do, I just don’t do it. People seem to feel like they are ‘forced’ into content. That’s on you. I didn’t want to do the dragon ball even, I didn’t do it. I don’t want to go on the crystal hunt for the ‘lessons in the sky’ achievment. I’m not going to do it. I don’t find that fun, so I am not going to force myself to do it.

Will I miss out of those achievment points and rewards? Yes. That’s my choice. I’d rather run sanctum sprint another 50 times.

CryxTryx.9208:

I start to wonder if the people who make this complaint have ever played an MMO before. It is not how an MMo work.

True. But then again, other MMOs “work” by catering to addicts who have more free time than brains to figure out that they are no better than Skinner rats.

By claiming to be a “MMO for people who don’t like MMOs” (Manifesto, remember?), the idea behind GW2 is that it would not work like the other MMOs do. Which is good, considering how mediocre the MMORPG genre has been.

In that, ArenaNet failed, though. The GW2 community is still filled with the grinders, farmers, addicts and exploiters that make the majority of other MMOs’ communities.

so in any RPG sorta game where levels are a key machanic there will always be a grind for such levels. Although it may not seem like it when ur leveling u are in fact grinding for those levels albeit faster than many MMO’s out there. past the level cap and map complete what is there left to really do? gear up and make money. this leads to more grinfing anyway. This game CANNOT have no grind. stop complaining and get real. The manifesto is not just a statement from Anet its also PR. and PR is not always the truth.

as for me i like to grind. i can stand it for a reasonable time. It does not bug me because although this is an MMO its also an RPG. in RPG’s i can accept the grind.

They want you to keep playing whether you grind or not. That much is clear. However, OP, that is a question you should ask yourself not ANET.

Erasculio.2914:

CryxTryx.9208:

I start to wonder if the people who make this complaint have ever played an MMO before. It is not how an MMo work.

True. But then again, other MMOs “work” by catering to addicts who have more free time than brains to figure out that they are no better than Skinner rats.

By claiming to be a “MMO for people who don’t like MMOs” (Manifesto, remember?), the idea behind GW2 is that it would not work like the other MMOs do. Which is good, considering how mediocre the MMORPG genre has been.

In that, ArenaNet failed, though. The GW2 community is still filled with the grinders, farmers, addicts and exploiters that make the majority of other MMOs’ communities.

What you fail to understand is that this is STILL an MMO. You can’t create an ‘MMO for people who don’t like MMo’s’ with out still making in an MMO. There are some intregal things an MMO must have.

It is very simple really. An MMO akittens base functions is a persistant world with a player base; some of whom log in daily and consume content.

The Story begins, but it doesn’t end, yet there is still content being consumed every day. In order for everything not to come to a screeching halt, this requires repeatable content, which some of you are labeling grind. So then let me rephrase to suit your definition of the word. This requires..grind.

GW2 has eliminated many of the things that players do not like about the traditional MMO design structure in order to be ‘the MMO for people who do not like MMO’s.

Vertical Gear progression to give an obvious example, but there are many to choose from.

You seem like you read the manifesto and thought it meant they were goign to redesign the MMO design structure and recreate the genre.. nay create a new genre!

They didn’t promise that, they promised you an MMO.

TDLR: – GW2 is an MMO and so by definition, by design, by ne·ces·si·ty requires repeatable content grind.

Erasculio.2914:

CryxTryx.9208:

I start to wonder if the people who make this complaint have ever played an MMO before. It is not how an MMo work.

True. But then again, other MMOs “work” by catering to addicts who have more free time than brains to figure out that they are no better than Skinner rats.

By claiming to be a “MMO for people who don’t like MMOs” (Manifesto, remember?), the idea behind GW2 is that it would not work like the other MMOs do. Which is good, considering how mediocre the MMORPG genre has been.

In that, ArenaNet failed, though. The GW2 community is still filled with the grinders, farmers, addicts and exploiters that make the majority of other MMOs’ communities.

The game didn’t fail because a bunch of people don’t change. The game succeeded by offering gamers like me something different…and it IS different.

If it wasn’t, why would so many people be complaining about the lack of gear progression as just one example.

CryxTryx.9208:

TDLR: – GW2 is an MMO and so by definition, by design, by ne·ces·si·ty requires repeatable content grind.

MMOs need grind as much as they need the holy trinity.

Which is to say, they don’t.

People are so used to mediocre MMOs that they cannot see the difference between the flaws in current MMOs and the flaws of the genre. ArenaNet could and was trying to do something about them, but they didn’t dare to go all the way out there.

As to why MMORPG players think MMOs need to have grind, I have writen about that here, so I won’t repeat myself.

Vayne.8563:

Erasculio.2914:

By claiming to be a “MMO for people who don’t like MMOs” (Manifesto, remember?), the idea behind GW2 is that it would not work like the other MMOs do. Which is good, considering how mediocre the MMORPG genre has been.

In that, ArenaNet failed, though. The GW2 community is still filled with the grinders, farmers, addicts and exploiters that make the majority of other MMOs’ communities.

The game didn’t fail because a bunch of people don’t change. The game succeeded by offering gamers like me something different…and it IS different.

Reading comprehension, buddy. When I say “In that, ArenaNet failed”, I’m not saying Guild Wars 2 failed, I’m saying ArenaNet failed at the goal I had mentioned in the previous line, being a MMO for people who don’t like MMOs.

After all, I’m speaking English, yoiu’re taking one line out of context. There’s no other way to describe taking one line out of the paragraph and refusing to acknowledge the preceding line.

Erasculio thank you for not continuing to repeat yourself.

You can’t have a persistant world with content being consumed at the rate which it is with out having repeatable content othwise every would do it all once, log off and never log back on.

If you could only do dungeons once, only do world events once, ect. There would be nothing left to do. You simply can’t create content as fast as it is consumed. That is what you fail to understand.

You say that is a design flaw but offer no suggestion to the alternative.

Erasculio.2914:

CryxTryx.9208:

TDLR: – GW2 is an MMO and so by definition, by design, by ne·ces·si·ty requires repeatable content grind.

MMOs need grind as much as they need the holy trinity.

Which is to say, they don’t.

People are so used to mediocre MMOs that they cannot see the difference between the flaws in current MMOs and the flaws of the genre. ArenaNet could and was trying to do something about them, but they didn’t dare to go all the way out there.

As to why MMORPG players think MMOs need to have grind, I have writen about that here, so I won’t repeat myself.

Vayne.8563:

Erasculio.2914:

By claiming to be a “MMO for people who don’t like MMOs” (Manifesto, remember?), the idea behind GW2 is that it would not work like the other MMOs do. Which is good, considering how mediocre the MMORPG genre has been.

In that, ArenaNet failed, though. The GW2 community is still filled with the grinders, farmers, addicts and exploiters that make the majority of other MMOs’ communities.

The game didn’t fail because a bunch of people don’t change. The game succeeded by offering gamers like me something different…and it IS different.

Reading comprehension, buddy. When I say “In that, ArenaNet failed”, I’m not saying Guild Wars 2 failed, I’m saying ArenaNet failed at the goal I had mentioned in the previous line, being a MMO for people who don’t like MMOs.

After all, I’m speaking English, yoiu’re taking one line out of context. There’s no other way to describe taking one line out of the paragraph and refusing to acknowledge the preceding line.

I still disagree. Anet didn’t fail. They’ve provided a game for people who want to play this sort of game. That’s not failure, that’s success. If they now go and make this game a full on gear grind, then they would have failed.

Edit: I don’t like other MMOs. I pretty much can’t stand them. This one I like. Ergo Anet didn’t fail. Maybe they failed for you, personally, but plenty of people I know that don’t like MMOs do like Guild Wars 2.

CryxTryx.9208:

Erasculio thank you for not continuing to repeat yourself.

If you continue mentioning the same (failed) arguments, I won’t bother repeating myself, I’ll just link to my previous reply.

CryxTryx.9208:

If you could only do dungeons once, only do world events once, ect. There would be nothing left to do. You simply can’t create content as fast as it is consumed. That is what you fail to understand.

Wrong, as expected. You are using excuses to justify mediocre content, assuming there is no other option. There is, in fact, and more than one.

This game is boring.
i have more excitement playing PS1 Rayman…
or Mario Kart.

id call this game a Slow, repetitive, buggy version of an MMO.

would it kill them to put something hillairous in there…… like Random Lion Arch Raids from the Skritt..
who wield Fish as Swords…

not these predictable Events that you can see in the top right hand side of your screen.

lolstabz.7026:

I’m using the Claw of Jormag event as an example.

I know the event is optional — I’ve seen those words a billion times on this forum before. That’s my problem. Why would people do this to themselves for something that’s optional?

The moment I enter Frostgorge, I feel like I throw down my weapons and replace them with a shovel and plough. I respect the actual people that spend their time out in the fields in the sun, mud and the snow. But in a fantasy game environment, I find it extremely hard to believe anybody having any fun at all spending two hours fighting the same enemies for a tiny chance at getting anything good.

I’m here to play a game and kill me a dragon. I’m tired of feeling like the old couple in the painting below. I really don’t think this sort of “gimme your items” behavior belongs in a fantasy setting such as Tyria. It’s not heroic at all. The second you kill Zhaitan is the second you become an assembly line worker.

I hesitate to mention the Manifesto, but like, we’re totally grinding.

Having seen the word “optional” doesn’t mean you understand what it means. Even if you understand them, there is also a chance of different interpretation.

For example, you say you find it hard to believe people having fun killing Claw. I don’t really understand why you said that, so I will just assume (not saying you are) for lack of data, that you don’t find killing Claw as fun. That’s where your fault lies, you thought everyone is like you. Again, this is just assumption, basing on your post about having a hard time believing others are having fun, while you may not.

Another flaw is that, you may have assumed (again for lack of data), that the people doing them are the same people doing them 3hrs ago, or 6hrs ago, or 12hrs ago even. Has it occurred to you that maybe, new players just discover that place? Or that a guild is doing it as an activity? or that, old players coming back and having fun again? Unless you tag each and every player, and follow them around, you can’t be sure that they are the same people doing it again and again and again. Claw has a really long re-spawn timer, and there’s a big chance that next time it spawn, that a different set of players are playing.

I am not sure what you are looking for a game, you mentioned it’s not Heroic, but you are one, in your own personal story.

Zardul.3952:

This game is boring.
i have more excitement playing PS1 Rayman…
or Mario Kart.

id call this game a Slow, repetitive, buggy version of an MMO.

would it kill them to put something hillairous in there…… like Random Lion Arch Raids from the Skritt..
who wield Fish as Swords…

not these predictable Events that you can see in the top right hand side of your screen.

There’s a solution to that. Play Rayman or Mario Kart instead.

Seriously people, if you’re having such a bad time playing GW2 just stop playing. It’s not like you pay a sub fee.

Erasculio.2914:

CryxTryx.9208:

Erasculio thank you for not continuing to repeat yourself.

If you continue mentioning the same (failed) arguments, I won’t bother repeating myself, I’ll just link to my previous reply.

CryxTryx.9208:

If you could only do dungeons once, only do world events once, ect. There would be nothing left to do. You simply can’t create content as fast as it is consumed. That is what you fail to understand.

Wrong, as expected. You are using excuses to justify mediocre content, assuming there is no other option. There is, in fact, and more than one.

This will be my last response to you.

My post was not an argument, it was an explination. The fact that you did not understand it does not make it argument or opinion. It is likely you have similar ‘arguments’ about taxes and war and equally likely your level of understand on those topics is similiar. You probably also don’t think you should have to stand in line at theme parks and think it is a ‘scam’ that the price of gasoline goes up during the weekend.

Just because an MMO is a game doesn’t mean it is not a complex system.

You linked to a brilliant thread of your own as if temporairy content was your idea. It is also exactly what guild wars is doing. This doesn’t however disprove my explination on the necesity of repeatable content in an MMO.

I’ve already completed the Bazaar content. In fact I had my personal node on day 2. Before you accuse me of being a ‘no life grinder’, I work full time, I only play after work and on my days off.

I’ve consumed this content well before the next scheduled release and so I have gone back to the repeatable content the game offers. Dungeons, Dailies and jumping puzzles, ect.

So one last time, it is simply not realistic to even attempt to create content as fast as it can be consumed.

CryxTryx.9208:

My post was not an argument, it was an explination. The fact that you did not understand it does not make it argument or opinion. It is likely you have similar ‘arguments’ about taxes and war and equally likely your level of understand on those topics is similiar. You probably also don’t think you should have to stand in line at theme parks and think it is a ‘scam’ that the price of gasoline goes up during the weekend.

And your current post is also not an argument, it’s just an ad hominem. Congrats!

You are still hiding under the “need” of grind as an excuse to justify how other MMOs are basically mediocre games catering to grinders. The fact is that GW2 has one of many possible models to keep players around without the need for grind, by continually and periodically releasing content. You have exhausted all content in this release? Good for you, but even ignoring how you are not everyone, the fact you played the new content is enough to show how new releases can keep people interested.

The idea that people need to be playing a MMO 24 hours per day, 7 days a week is just an excuse to hide what is closer to being an addiction than a game. There is nothing bad in players leaving GW2 for a few days, and coming back to play the game as soon as new content is released, which in GW2 means once every two weeks. This is a perfectly viable model that makes grind irrelevant.

Saelune.5316:

GW2 doesnt require grinding. ALL grinding in this game is optional. If you want a legendary, you might need to grind, but you dont need a legendary. If you want ascended gear, you might need to grind, but you dont need ascended gear. Grinding is only an issue if you need to grind to advance, which you dont.

corection: if u want a legendary you MUST grind. no other option.

“we don’t want you to grind”… yeah, right.

Yeah, grind is optional. You don’t have to grind if:

- You don’t want a legendary
- You don’t want best in slot gear
- You don’t care about effective varied builds (having multiple gear to support multiple builds)
- You don’t want to be competitive in WvW (varied bis sets, and WvW abilities)
- You don’t want to craft for yourself as you level (bc you have to farm mats or to buy mats. But who cares about crafting, it’s broken anyway)
- You don’t want dungeon skins.
- You don’t want any cool-looking Mystic Forge skins
- You don’t want high tiered PvP skins
- You don’t mind being short on gold all the time
- You don’t want some festival rewards (250 this, 100 that. Most are not grindy though)

While grind is not absolutely mandatory as in many other mmos, like not grinding turning you into a “second-rate citizen” and severely locking you out of content, if you don’t wanna grind in GW2 you are not allowed to WANT to do a lot of things as well. But it’s way better than other mmo’s at least. Not as bad, but it’s there. Thing is, there will be a lot of grind depending on what goals people set for themselves in the game.

While the whole game is not grindy it has artificially bloated parts that shouldn’t be there and serve only to slow people down.

I have a good example.

I am at work and I go to a coworkers desk and see that he is working in excel transferring information from one spreadsheet to another. The list seemed to go on forever so I say “Wow you must be bored out of your mind”. He replies “Actually no. It’s not exciting or anything but It doesn’t really require any thought. I can just put in my headphones and relax” I didn’t say this but I thought that I could relate.

After 8 hours of work sometimes I don’t want to have do something that requires alot of attention. I just want to do something for myself that is relaxing. So I turn on the Pandora and wreak havoc on some unsuspecting centaurs. Now you are right It’s not epic but it is nice, and its even better when you can be rewarded for it.

Erasculio.2914:

Vayne.8563:

For the 87th time, the manifesto was talking about grinding to get to the fun stuff. It SAYS that. Then recalled the word grind a couple of lines later.

Irrelevant. You have been stating it over and over, trying to twist ArenaNet’s words to excuse how they went back on their design philosophy about the game. As much as I listen to your opinion regarding some other topics, I’ll continue ignoring your excuses about the Manifesto as sycophantism.

Please, Vayne, c’mon. ¬¬

It’s not only the manifesto that contains the no grind talk, It’s all over the pre-release material. And that was A LOT of material. Some of those blog posts even got deleted. Wonder why?

Some people inside ANet decided to tune up the grind right during launch. The more blantant examples being lolgendaries and dungeon tokens. Not to mention ascended later on. There were even talks of “single drop skins in dungeons” and whatnot. They just couldn’t deliver it. The adjustments in their grind philosophy are a very dead cold horse, but don’t say there weren’t very significant “amendments” to the initial vision. It’s way clear there were.

Harbard.5738:

Some people inside ANet decided to tune up the grind right during launch. The more blantant examples being lolgendaries and dungeon tokens. Not to mention ascended later on. There were even talks of “single drop skins in dungeons” and whatnot. They just couldn’t deliver it. The adjustments in their grind philosophy are a very dead cold horse, but don’t say there weren’t very significant “amendments” to the initial vision. It’s way clear there were.

One interesting thing, that I’m sure a lot of people don’t remember, is that the recipe for Legendaries has been changed since beta. It used to be that each Legendary required only two Gifts (like the Gift of Ice and the Gift of Metal), the precursor and a single Bloodstone Shard. This was seen in Beta, and was referenced in multiple places (here, here, here, here, they were mentioned as being reworked later on here). I was around at the time, and I remember it too.

The current system was implemented later on, and is significantly more grindy. I wonder if it is any better, though.

They were not meant to be farmed, even if people insist on doing it. The treasure chest merely recuperates the trouble you spent getting there, and a bit more to cover your travel costs.

Grinding world bosses is extremely inefficient unless you’re jumping at the map at the right times with robot like efficiency. What? 3g an hour if you are lucky and 100% efficient?

Just join a dragon fight with the intent of fighting the dragon and the occasional drop. If you go in there to “grind”, it will only lead to disappointment.

Personally, I think it’s best when you’re running around Lion’s arch and an announcement comes in. World bosses are best played as a “tourist”, not as a janitor. I avoid any activity in which the reward comes first. Dailies too cumbersome? I just don’t bother at all, etc

Erasculio.2914:

Harbard.5738:

Some people inside ANet decided to tune up the grind right during launch. The more blantant examples being lolgendaries and dungeon tokens. Not to mention ascended later on. There were even talks of “single drop skins in dungeons” and whatnot. They just couldn’t deliver it. The adjustments in their grind philosophy are a very dead cold horse, but don’t say there weren’t very significant “amendments” to the initial vision. It’s way clear there were.

One interesting thing, that I’m sure a lot of people don’t remember, is that the recipe for Legendaries has been changed since beta. It used to be that each Legendary required only two Gifts (like the Gift of Ice and the Gift of Metal), the precursor and a single Bloodstone Shard. This was seen in Beta, and was referenced in multiple places (here, here, here, here, they were mentioned as being reworked later on here). I was around at the time, and I remember it too.

The current system was implemented later on, and is significantly more grindy. I wonder if it is any better, though.

Yeah. That’s why I mentioned lolgendaries as a blatant example. It’s good to have people like you to remind people, Erasculio. I mean, that, the dungeon tokens and ascended later on was just a in-your-face change of plans regarding grind. Like it or not, good or bad, it happened. Just wish people would accept the fact it happened and stop the nonsense.

Saelune.5316:

GW2 doesnt require grinding. ALL grinding in this game is optional. If you want a legendary, you might need to grind, but you dont need a legendary. If you want ascended gear, you might need to grind, but you dont need ascended gear. Grinding is only an issue if you need to grind to advance, which you dont.

That argument is becoming tiresome. And yeah OP I agree – it’s very annoying trying to do Jormag when like 90% of the people there are farming for lodestones with magic find gear and boosts on instead of actually fighting the dragon.

PetricaKerempuh.7958:

Saelune.5316:

GW2 doesnt require grinding. ALL grinding in this game is optional. If you want a legendary, you might need to grind, but you dont need a legendary. If you want ascended gear, you might need to grind, but you dont need ascended gear. Grinding is only an issue if you need to grind to advance, which you dont.

corection: if u want a legendary you MUST grind. no other option.

“we don’t want you to grind”… yeah, right.

If you want a legendary tomorrow maybe. I aspire to make my own legendary one day, but I am in no rush. I expect to be playing this game for years. I am doing things to get the parts for a legendary, but Im not focusing all my time and effort into it. Sure, this means I wont get one for awhile, but it doesnt mean I wont get one. And if I never get one, then so be it. Id rather have fun, than have a legendary.

Mkalafut.1273:

Saelune.5316:

GW2 doesnt require grinding. ALL grinding in this game is optional. If you want a legendary, you might need to grind, but you dont need a legendary. If you want ascended gear, you might need to grind, but you dont need ascended gear. Grinding is only an issue if you need to grind to advance, which you dont.

That argument is becoming tiresome. And yeah OP I agree – it’s very annoying trying to do Jormag when like 90% of the people there are farming for lodestones with magic find gear and boosts on instead of actually fighting the dragon.

People complaining about things that arent wrong is also tiresome.

PetricaKerempuh.7958:

Saelune.5316:

GW2 doesnt require grinding. ALL grinding in this game is optional. If you want a legendary, you might need to grind, but you dont need a legendary. If you want ascended gear, you might need to grind, but you dont need ascended gear. Grinding is only an issue if you need to grind to advance, which you dont.

corection: if u want a legendary you MUST grind. no other option.

“we don’t want you to grind”… yeah, right.

Oh look. Another person quoting the manifesto out of context. Quoting an almost three year old video out of context doesn’t win arguments. It just makes you look like you were too lazy to actually pay attention to everything else Anet said about the game.