Guild Wars 2

Vayne.8563:

But that’s true in any game. Every game has farmers. Anet gave them places to congregate and they do. What’s wrong with that?

You;re being disingenuous there you well know that once it attracts too many farmers it will be nerfed for one thing. Its already been nerfed at least once.

I don’t really care about the grind what is galling is anet nerfing farming as soon as a spot becomes popular, plus the unfairness over the whole RNG thing.

Vayne.8563:

Oh look. Another person quoting the manifesto out of context. Quoting an almost three year old video out of context doesn’t win arguments. It just makes you look like you were too lazy to actually pay attention to everything else Anet said about the game.

Oh look Vayne defending the manifesto again despite being proved wrong. And we were paying attention to everything anet said about the game at that time its why we know they have backtracked on their original vision for the game.

morrolan.9608:

Vayne.8563:

Oh look. Another person quoting the manifesto out of context. Quoting an almost three year old video out of context doesn’t win arguments. It just makes you look like you were too lazy to actually pay attention to everything else Anet said about the game.

Oh look Vayne defending the manifesto again despite being proved wrong. And we were paying attention to everything anet said about the game at that time its why we know they have backtracked on their original vision for the game.

I haven’t been proved wrong and the fact that you’ve said so now, more than once, shows your complete lack of understanding of the issues. If your’e going to repeat that I’ve been proved wrong (and many people have agreed with me), then you should back it up with some evidence.

But you don’t have any evidence because it doesn’t exist. I think you should look up proof in the dictionary. I’m not sure it means what you think it means.

Edit: Anyone with even a basic knowledge of English should acknowledge that once a word is defined a document, the second usage of the same word right after in the same paragraph will retain that definition. Why is that so hard for you to understand?)

Saelune.5316:

Mkalafut.1273:

Saelune.5316:

GW2 doesnt require grinding. ALL grinding in this game is optional. If you want a legendary, you might need to grind, but you dont need a legendary. If you want ascended gear, you might need to grind, but you dont need ascended gear. Grinding is only an issue if you need to grind to advance, which you dont.

That argument is becoming tiresome. And yeah OP I agree – it’s very annoying trying to do Jormag when like 90% of the people there are farming for lodestones with magic find gear and boosts on instead of actually fighting the dragon.

People complaining about things that arent wrong is also tiresome.

I have no opinion in the matter. All I said was that it’s annoying when people farm the mobs at Jormag rather than kill the boss.

Tl;dr
Find yourself a server that has mainly people with 10+h time difference with low population and have fun failing at Jormag by your own.
They said it’s for both type of player, those who grind and those who don’t. You don’t have to grind to enjoy the first 9 lvl of fractal, it’s like the lvl 80 but easier. And you can get the Best In Slot quite easily compared to any other MMO, tell me one MMO where you can get the BIS in barely a month where you play around 10h a week NOT farming, just walking by event, doing a different dungeon once a day, tanning on the LA’s beach while looking at a RP event.

morrolan.9608:

Oh look Vayne defending the manifesto again despite being proved wrong. And we were paying attention to everything anet said about the game at that time its why we know they have backtracked on their original vision for the game.

You are wasting your time discussing it, just ignore him. There’s a great topic about the things ArenaNet mentioned and that were eventually changed before release.

The manifesto intended players to not have to grind levels. In some mmo’s you have to grind the same monsters, sometimes competing with others for the same spawns to earn levels. It is this kind of grinding Anet has eliminated.

I’m getting to the point where I’m not sure what’s worse.

• People thinking that there would ever be an MMO where rewards did not require some repetition (or a lot) of content.
• People trotting out the Manifesto, as if trying to rub ANet’s nose in it to prove that they should be rewarded ASAP with things put into the game to provide longer term goals.

The Manifesto never promised no grind with regard to access to rewards — such as skins, titles and achievements. A look into what it took to acquire skins and titles in GW should have told people what to expect. If anything, GW2 is more lenient than GW in that regard. However, the Manifesto’s promise was that you would not have to grind to get to the point you could have fun. The whole game experience was designed to be fun. However, no game is going to hit the sweet spot that spells fun for every player.

IndigoSundown.5419:

I’m getting to the point where I’m not sure what’s worse.

• People thinking that there would ever be an MMO where rewards did not require some repetition (or a lot) of content.
• People trotting out the Manifesto, as if trying to rub ANet’s nose in it to prove that they should be rewarded ASAP with things put into the game to provide longer term goals.

The Manifesto never promised no grind with regard to access to rewards — such as skins, titles and achievements. A look into what it took to acquire skins and titles in GW should have told people what to expect. If anything, GW2 is more lenient than GW in that regard. However, the Manifesto’s promise was that you would not have to grind to get to the point you could have fun. The whole game experience was designed to be fun. However, no game is going to hit the sweet spot that spells fun for every player.

Exactly. It was the same with GW1. You were able to get everything done in the game and not miss out on anything by not farming or grinding. However optional achievements / rewards were available for those who wanted to put the extra time and effort into the game.

IndigoSundown.5419:

I’m getting to the point where I’m not sure what’s worse.

• People thinking that there would ever be an MMO where rewards did not require some repetition (or a lot) of content.
• People trotting out the Manifesto, as if trying to rub ANet’s nose in it to prove that they should be rewarded ASAP with things put into the game to provide longer term goals.

I know what’s worse:

• People unable to understand the concept that not all MMORPGs need grind.

The irony in seeing comments claiming that all MMOs need content to artificially keep people playing longer is how ArenaNet itself talked about that, here:

The answer can be found in the mechanics and choices made in subscription-based MMOs, which keep customers actively playing by chasing something in the game through processes that take as long as possible. In other words, designers of traditional MMOs create content systems that take more time to keep people playing longer. If this is your business motivation and model so you keep getting paid, it makes sense and is an incredibly smart thing to do, and you need to support it.

(…)

But what if your business model isn’t based on a subscription? What if your content-design motivations aren’t driven by the need to create mechanics that keep people playing as long as possible? When looking at content design for Guild Wars 2, we’ve tried to ask the question: What if the development of the game was based on…wait for it…fun?

I’m rather sure the answer a lot of people here would offer to that question is, “It’s not possible because fun is subjective, so you need to have grind anyway”. Which, in many ways, is exactly the blindsided point of view that claims all MMOs need the holy trinity, or raids, and so on.

Mkalafut.1273:

However optional achievements / rewards were available for those who wanted to put the extra time and effort into the game.

The flaw in your assumption is that you believe grind deserves a reward. It doesn’t. Grind is easy – it’s the kind of mindless activity that bots do better than human beings. Someone who accepts doing content he/she does not enjoy just to get a shiny reward in the end is not only lowering himself/herself to the level of a Skinner rat, but also telling game developers that they don’t need to work making fun content, since some people are willing to play whatever just to get a prize in the end.

It’s nice to see how there is no real life equivalent to grind. All options are either things people avoid, or so ridiculous to not even be feasible to be used as arguments. Yet, in MMOs, people have become so used to the system employed by pay to play games – that tend to be mediocre, for the records – that they believe grind is not only a good thing, but also a required thing.

It’s not. And Guild Wars 2 would be a better game without it.

I never said grind deserves a reward. I said that Anet designed GW1 to give players extra titles and rewards (ie: HoM) by doing so. There was no assumption with my post either, so I’m not sure how or why you’re saying that I made an assumption.

All I said was that they designed the game similar to how they designed GW1. The manifesto was explaining the design philosophies to those not familiar with those of GW1.

Mkalafut.1273:

All I said was that they designed the game similar to how they designed GW1. The manifesto was explaining the design philosophies to those not familiar with those of GW1.

You mean, the same Guild Wars that had “skill > time spent” as one of its main design philosophies?

Erasculio.2914:

Mkalafut.1273:

All I said was that they designed the game similar to how they designed GW1. The manifesto was explaining the design philosophies to those not familiar with those of GW1.

You mean, the same Guild Wars that had “skill > time spent” as one of its main design philosophies?

I’m not sure why they have to be mutually exclusive. As if players who spend a lot of time in a game aren’t able to be skilled at the same time. That’s one thing that all the forum…goers (to avoid an infraction) say that really irks me.

Fey Zeal.7032:

The manifesto intended players to not have to grind levels. In some mmo’s you have to grind the same monsters, sometimes competing with others for the same spawns to earn levels. It is this kind of grinding Anet has eliminated.

Thanks for this. This is precisely what Anet was talking about. That and not having to get to “end game” to have fun encounters. It’s been explained so many times, it’s hard to imagine anyone can believe otherwise…unless they’re just saying it to further an agenda.

Mkalafut.1273:

I’m not sure why they have to be mutually exclusive. As if players who spend a lot of time in a game aren’t able to be skilled at the same time. That’s one thing that all the forum…goers (to avoid an infraction) say that really irks me.

Because it’s a matter of priorities. Right now, GW2 has a lot of reward for people who spend a lot of time playing, even if they have little skill (which is one of the reasons why forum goers keep mentioning it). There are very few rewards for skilled players, especially those who do not spend a lot of time playing. From ArenaNet’s past design philosophies, one would expect the opposite.

Erasculio.2914:

Mkalafut.1273:

All I said was that they designed the game similar to how they designed GW1. The manifesto was explaining the design philosophies to those not familiar with those of GW1.

You mean, the same Guild Wars that had “skill > time spent” as one of its main design philosophies?

Except that Guild Wars 1, for the most part, didn’t reward skill…at least not in PvE. Just about every dungeon could be run by someone. So someone with no skill could get the same rewads/titles etc. You could buy many if not most achievements.

You could get survivor as a title by grinding wurms that appear before you first reach the Eye. No danger at all, just a lot of grinding.

You could easily grind Luxon, Sunspear and lightbringer points in areas that were easy.

So what’s this mythical reward for skill people keep talking about?

I honestly don’t know what they want. But I do know that I want to grind on you.

Mkalafut.1273:

Saelune.5316:

Mkalafut.1273:

Saelune.5316:

GW2 doesnt require grinding. ALL grinding in this game is optional. If you want a legendary, you might need to grind, but you dont need a legendary. If you want ascended gear, you might need to grind, but you dont need ascended gear. Grinding is only an issue if you need to grind to advance, which you dont.

That argument is becoming tiresome. And yeah OP I agree – it’s very annoying trying to do Jormag when like 90% of the people there are farming for lodestones with magic find gear and boosts on instead of actually fighting the dragon.

People complaining about things that arent wrong is also tiresome.

I have no opinion in the matter. All I said was that it’s annoying when people farm the mobs at Jormag rather than kill the boss.

Then why quote me? Id be annoyed too if people would hold off an event just to farm.

Vayne.8563:

Fey Zeal.7032:

The manifesto intended players to not have to grind levels. In some mmo’s you have to grind the same monsters, sometimes competing with others for the same spawns to earn levels. It is this kind of grinding Anet has eliminated.

Thanks for this. This is precisely what Anet was talking about. That and not having to get to “end game” to have fun encounters. It’s been explained so many times, it’s hard to imagine anyone can believe otherwise…unless they’re just saying it to further an agenda.

I agree. I’m always surprised by what people call ‘grinding’ in this game because its usually just playing the game – and the game is laid out open to you with many, many different routes to take. People just seem to make choices to do the same things over and over again, and sometimes they do it even when they don’t enjoy it, which I find rather silly. But the game doesn’t force it, players just get caught up chasing a reward and forget to have fun playing the game.

When I imagine grinding I think of City of Heroes where you look down a city street at group after group of enemy mobs, and all you did was move from one group to the next to the next to the next in order to level up….and that was pretty much it and on to the next zone where you looked down a city street at group after group of enemy mobs. That was a grind.

Saelune.5316:

Mkalafut.1273:

Saelune.5316:

Mkalafut.1273:

Saelune.5316:

GW2 doesnt require grinding. ALL grinding in this game is optional. If you want a legendary, you might need to grind, but you dont need a legendary. If you want ascended gear, you might need to grind, but you dont need ascended gear. Grinding is only an issue if you need to grind to advance, which you dont.

That argument is becoming tiresome. And yeah OP I agree – it’s very annoying trying to do Jormag when like 90% of the people there are farming for lodestones with magic find gear and boosts on instead of actually fighting the dragon.

People complaining about things that arent wrong is also tiresome.

I have no opinion in the matter. All I said was that it’s annoying when people farm the mobs at Jormag rather than kill the boss.

Then why quote me? Id be annoyed too if people would hold off an event just to farm.

I accidentally quoted the wrong thing. I meant to quote the post where the OP addressed the same thing.

Mkalafut.1273:

Saelune.5316:

Mkalafut.1273:

Saelune.5316:

Mkalafut.1273:

Saelune.5316:

GW2 doesnt require grinding. ALL grinding in this game is optional. If you want a legendary, you might need to grind, but you dont need a legendary. If you want ascended gear, you might need to grind, but you dont need ascended gear. Grinding is only an issue if you need to grind to advance, which you dont.

That argument is becoming tiresome. And yeah OP I agree – it’s very annoying trying to do Jormag when like 90% of the people there are farming for lodestones with magic find gear and boosts on instead of actually fighting the dragon.

People complaining about things that arent wrong is also tiresome.

I have no opinion in the matter. All I said was that it’s annoying when people farm the mobs at Jormag rather than kill the boss.

Then why quote me? Id be annoyed too if people would hold off an event just to farm.

I accidentally quoted the wrong thing. I meant to quote the post where the OP addressed the same thing.

Oh. Ok.

Vayne, all I said was that the philosophies by which GW2 were founded on are the same of GW1.

I have 50/50 and I found everything to be just time consuming – very few were particularly challenging. Sure you could farm wurms or farm kilroy or something, sure. I don’t see the point to ‘earning’ an achievement that way, but nothing was in the game to prevent that and it was an easy way to achieve an otherwise challenging title. Some people chose to do it that way, who cares?

The only exception to this would be RA – which wasn’t skill based at all, but more of how lucky you were to get a monk and also have a team without one.

Erasculio, that has nothing to do with how they have to be mutually exclusive. When you provide me with legitimate reasoning as to why people can’t play the game a lot and possess skill, I will entertain your argument.

I’d also like to know some examples of what you feel should be rewarded that is solely skill based and has nothing to do with any amount of time dedication to the game whatsoever. Don’t even say acquiring a legendary or I’ll disown you.

People always gripe about rewarding time spent rather than skill as if one HAS to exist without the other. Anybody who puts 1,000+ hours into a game can’t possibly be skilled at it too, am I right? Oh.. wait….

I noticed you guys were both in the other similarly themed thread but I am not replying to both. I will leave this reply here and that’ll be it because I’m done talking this topic to death.

Nobody has yet to provide reasonable examples of “rewarding skill instead of time spent.” Also I won’t even mention how every time an achievement is introduced into the game that requires individual skill in a dungeon or something (takes a look at Aetherblade Retreat achievements) everyone says that they’re too hard or impossible to get.

Erasculio.2914:

CryxTryx.9208:

I start to wonder if the people who make this complaint have ever played an MMO before. It is not how an MMo work.

True. But then again, other MMOs “work” by catering to addicts who have more free time than brains to figure out that they are no better than Skinner rats.

By claiming to be a “MMO for people who don’t like MMOs” (Manifesto, remember?), the idea behind GW2 is that it would not work like the other MMOs do. Which is good, considering how mediocre the MMORPG genre has been.

In that, ArenaNet failed, though. The GW2 community is still filled with the grinders, farmers, addicts and exploiters that make the majority of other MMOs’ communities.

Well, yeah, but they didn’t want to appeal to the people who didn’t like MMOs to the exclusion of those who did. So I don’t think they failed on that point. I hated the very thought of MMOs, but love GW2. But I also know some people who played and liked other MMOs and play GW2. So I don’t think they failed at all. They DO have a game that appeals to people who don’t like MMOs.

A MMO without grinding, not even remotely possible. sure you can control it in some small degree but it will always been there.

I don’t understand why people fight Jorlag 2 hours a day every day neither..
Like if you want to grind, then run CoF in the same time it takes you to kill Jorlag you would have made around 10g doing CoF compared to the 16s rare boots you’ll most likely get from that event.
Mind = Boggled.

Erasculio.2914:

Mkalafut.1273:

I’m not sure why they have to be mutually exclusive. As if players who spend a lot of time in a game aren’t able to be skilled at the same time. That’s one thing that all the forum…goers (to avoid an infraction) say that really irks me.

Because it’s a matter of priorities. Right now, GW2 has a lot of reward for people who spend a lot of time playing, even if they have little skill (which is one of the reasons why forum goers keep mentioning it). There are very few rewards for skilled players, especially those who do not spend a lot of time playing. From ArenaNet’s past design philosophies, one would expect the opposite.

Considering none of the rewards you speak of give any kind of advantage to the skilled players with lots of time, I have a hard time agreeing with the premise that skilled players without lots of time are disadvantaged comparatively.

I think any game expecting longevity needs to give some kind of perk to those that put in more hours; perks that don’t disadvantage others, but definitely perks that set them apart. That’s par for the course.