Guild Wars 2

DegoLocc.5976:

Treeline.3865:

Progression != Grind

No progression=bored at endgame, move on to another game, which is what casuals tend to do anyway.

The whole world is your endgame.

Actually I don’t play WOW, but played the other three you mentioned, and they all had stat progression, where higher level players with high level gear would pwn your face. AND for DAoC TOA brought stat changes? LOL, I played DAoC from beta, and there was ALWAYS stat progression, don’t know what you’re talking about, hell frontiers expansion wasn’t even the first to have stat progression. Realm Rank? Stat progression before that too. What are you on about? I think someone thinks they know something they really don’t.

So, um, forgive me, but Realm Ranks were gained how again? Oh do you mean FROM JUST PLAYING THE GAME? I didn’t have to change my playstyle one single bit to gain realm rank, I just had to go out and kill players….wow big change there. If anything this would be on par with leveling, not gear grinding.

So how about you give me some details about the “stat progression” of Daoc prior to ToA. Give me some details on how I was apparently forced to go do something other then RvR, which is what that game was about back then, that forced me to stop RvRing and go monster bashing endlessly in order for me to compete?

Because Prior to ToA, I do recall running about in pretty much the same exact gear I wore from the day I hit 50. The only time I ever remember changing my gear out was if my the points I gained from RR made a skill go over the useful cap, so I would remake a piece or 2 with new gems, and I hardly call that a gear grind.

Nothing in SI was ever added to the game that became a “must have” because caps were caps back then.

Bread.7516:

vince.5937:

So I name an MMO with no gear grind and DegoLocc continues to tell us we’re looking for casual games in the wrong genre? Looking for an argument much?

imo there seems to be a very different understanding of “hardcore” in mmos. They seem to think grinding and farming a lot means hard core; I dont think this is the case. In gaming, universally – i think hardcore applies to people who strive to improve their skill in a game, time investment comes hand-in-hand with it but improving oneself in the game is what makes a player hardcore

I’ll agree with you wholeheartedly on that. In CoH, there was a definite power plateau that came with every player’s personal playstyle. The “crappy” power selections were godlike hammers in the right hands. The “uber” power selections could be worthless if you didn’t know how to play. Did the Invention Enhancements make it easier to play through some content? Yes. Was that content walled off if you weren’t super tricked out? No. You simply expanded outward rather than upward. It was casual MMO gaming at its finest.

I do adore dego’s logic, it’s like if we went back to Doom’s day. He’d be blasting FPS do not have jumping and anyone who tries to add jumping isn’t making an FPS as FPS’ do not have jumping so we’re all obviously wrong and stupid.

I won’t lie that at the moment I can’t. That being said, a few probably will (I really do not feel like booting up MMOdatabase and spending half an hour arguing with you here). That said, minecraft doesn’t have tier progression. Neither did the sims. Amongst the best selling games ever, right?

Or how about the face book games that rank up millions upon millions of players a month despite basically being filler with no tier progression other then cool/pretty items? (Yes, you can technically argue that farmville has tier since I think you at some point unlock a 3×3 plow from what I saw my mom play of it, but it looked like you could buy that early – that’s not progression, that’s annoying you into buying it. Please don’t be stupid enough to argue this without understanding it). Holy crap, that’s more then a lot of the none-world of war craft MMOs combined! In a game with no tiers! Holy shnazz!

This game promised us no gear tiers, was doing well, and could have added stuff like guild halls to keep us happy and busy. Instead, nexon deceided to buy it out, change the game’s progress completely, and well . . . I don’t have the metrics, but from what I noticed logging into random locations, it looks like LA is filled with more people yet the rest of the world has dropped. The overall looks like more people dropped then joined.

Time will tell won’t it? I predict F2P by next years unless Nexon lets go and ANet can do some damage control.

“You guys can’t name any other TRUE MMO, that have gear stat progression, because there are none. "

I would like to point out that the reason for that is simple, and the very same reason that until jumping became standard FPS didn’t bother adding it.

It’s par the course. They can get away with it, but guess what? Wow, 30% subscription loss. Name me another MMO with over 3 million players, look at facebook and tell me the 6~ multi game million players you see there isn’t that same.

I also assume you think PS2 isn’t a real MMO.

There are MMOs before Wow that had no gear treadmill, it was only when Wow came it popularize the gear treadmill to the point people equate MMO = gear treadmill, and hence alot of people equate any MMo with gear treadmill to be more or less Wow clone.

If I wanted to play a MMO with gear treadmill, I might as well go to the one that is the best and spent years refining the treadmill system.

Uh oh, the semantics of whether GW1 is or is not an MMO. Does it really matter? Really now?

I’ll go along with GW1 not being an MMO in the sense that a Mac is not a PC (personal computer, irrespsective of OS). Even though by dictionary defintion, both items fit their respective categories, they do not meet the typical defintion per common usage. A better description for GW1 would be a Diablo-like game with horizontal progression and GUIs instead of text menus for the game lobby. Note that Diablo itself is heavily based on gear progression, much more so than your average MMORPG.

Just because no MMO that I know of has used horizontal progression doesn’t mean that GW2 shouldn’t have done it. If we stuck with only doing things that had been done before, we would all still be living in caves huddled over fires. Doing new things is necessary for any kind of evolution to take place.

Seriously suggesting League of Legends though? It has no PvE component and has a very rigid format. It fits into the e-sport theme quite well because of this, and has aspects that ANet should take note of should they truly want to develop the PvP into an e-sport. However, it really doesn’t seem relevant to discussions about the PvE portions of GW2.

Derk.3189:

DegoLocc.5976:

Treeline.3865:

Progression != Grind

No progression=bored at endgame, move on to another game, which is what casuals tend to do anyway.

Oh, but almighty GW2 is ALL endgame, right from the get go. You love adhering to what the company says SO much so you better believe this too.

I have been playing and enjoying MMO’s that play this way for almost 2 decades. Nobody tells me how to feel what to like. I play what I like, and don’t play what I don’t like. It’s simple.

Point is, I have seen this dog and pony show many times before, and you guys and all your complaints, will never change the fact that this game will always have some form of progression, where the guy with the uber stuff has an advantage on those who don’t. So go get your uber stuff so you can be viable, or be like me and don’t bother, just play how you want, and when you do beat someone who out gears you, you can then know the bliss that I play for.

Go underdogs. Down with bland arcade predictable variable-less mindless gameplay.

I guess it’s just too hard for some people to understand what is actually progression and endgame.And they are too close minded for new KIND of things.

If you only played games with gear grinding on it’s endgame , this doesnt mean this will always have to be that way.

This is just being close minded for new things.You will never achive better things with sticking up to oldies.Not even in real life.Sry but that’s how it is.Poor thing is poor.

DegoLocc.5976:

Point is, I have seen this dog and pony show many times before, and you guys and all your complaints, will never change the fact that this game will always have some form of progression, where the guy with the uber stuff has an advantage on those who don’t. So go get your uber stuff so you can be viable, or be like me and don’t bother, just play how you want, and when you do beat someone who out gears you, you can then know the bliss that I play for.

Your bliss is our misery and/or frustration.

I’ve already given you the name of a true casual MMO with no gear treadmill, so please, do as you said you would and stop force feeding us your beliefs as to what GW2 should be.

DegoLocc.5976:

And there isn’t anything you, or extra credit helium voiced badly drawn cartoons can tell me about power creep being bad. I love the power creep, gives me something to try and kill for sport.

You´re kinda missing what powercreep is…like, by a mile.

Powercreep is basicly when new content give bigger numbers, those numbers raise on both you and your foes, therefore you won´t be any more challenged than previously, you´re just seeing bigger numbers. What it does however is obsolete all the older content in the long run.

…powercreep give somtehing to kill for sport…yea right

DegoLocc.5976:

Derk.3189:

DegoLocc.5976:

Treeline.3865:

Progression != Grind

No progression=bored at endgame, move on to another game, which is what casuals tend to do anyway.

Oh, but almighty GW2 is ALL endgame, right from the get go. You love adhering to what the company says SO much so you better believe this too.

I have been playing and enjoying MMO’s that play this way for almost 2 decades. Nobody tells me how to feel what to like. I play what I like, and don’t play what I don’t like. It’s simple.

Point is, I have seen this dog and pony show many times before, and you guys and all your complaints, will never change the fact that this game will always have some form of progression, where the guy with the uber stuff has an advantage on those who don’t. So go get your uber stuff so you can be viable, or be like me and don’t bother, just play how you want, and when you do beat someone who out gears you, you can then know the bliss that I play for.

Go underdogs. Down with bland arcade predictable variable-less mindless gameplay.

You love gear grinds, why did you buy this game again? Or am I to believe you bought this game last week?

and LMFAO. Ascended gear does NOTHING to change the gameplay. It ticks your numbers up a notch. NO new effects. Agony is a simple on off switch. At least WoW’s gear treadmill was actually GOOD.

Anyhow, its quite clear now you have no idea what you’re on about anyways, as most people in this topic have pointed out already.

DegoLocc.5976:

It’s simply not enough, and I bought this game because despite what their “manifesto said” I new the moment they announced that they would raise level cap down the road that this game would be your standard grind. And that is good for the games longevity.

You guys can’t name any other TRUE MMO, that have gear stat progression, because there are none. If it didn’t have that no one would play for years and years and years. GW1 was a fluke, it wasn’t an MMO and there is no other game like it. Either move on, or go back to playing it. And just accept what most MMO’s players want because that is who Anet is wisely after.

And could you specify exactly why it matters that gw1 is not an mmo?
Both gw and gw2 are onlinemultiplayer titles.

I told earlier.He just doesn’t know the actual meaning of most of the words he is trying to use.

Derk.3189:

DegoLocc.5976:

Derk.3189:

DegoLocc.5976:

Treeline.3865:

Progression != Grind

No progression=bored at endgame, move on to another game, which is what casuals tend to do anyway.

Oh, but almighty GW2 is ALL endgame, right from the get go. You love adhering to what the company says SO much so you better believe this too.

I have been playing and enjoying MMO’s that play this way for almost 2 decades. Nobody tells me how to feel what to like. I play what I like, and don’t play what I don’t like. It’s simple.

Point is, I have seen this dog and pony show many times before, and you guys and all your complaints, will never change the fact that this game will always have some form of progression, where the guy with the uber stuff has an advantage on those who don’t. So go get your uber stuff so you can be viable, or be like me and don’t bother, just play how you want, and when you do beat someone who out gears you, you can then know the bliss that I play for.

Go underdogs. Down with bland arcade predictable variable-less mindless gameplay.

You love gear grinds, why did you buy this game again? Or am I to believe you bought this game last week?

and LMFAO. Ascended gear does NOTHING to change the gameplay. It ticks your numbers up a notch. NO new effects. Agony is a simple on off switch. At least WoW’s gear treadmill was actually GOOD.

yeah at least 20% better is insignificant. chuckle. that’s before infusion which have their own stats, and before the gear inflation to come. But, nope not significant. Lol.

DegoLocc.5976:

Go underdogs. Down with bland arcade predictable variable-less mindless gameplay.

…apparently chess is mindless game too.
Aguess RTS´ are all mindless games by your definition. Oh and mobas too, they require no skill at all, and are bland as hell, right? no tactics involved.

I´m not even sure how to respond anymore….it´s starting to dawn on me that i´m feeding a troll….

Arenanet marketed this game as one that would not have “gear stat progression.” It had horizontal progression.

They planned to make it an ever changing game by introducing better gear (no new stats just better looks), new content areas, more dynamic and group events, more skill-based character progression, etc. Not the lateness and greatness new gear with more stats. The president of Arenanet stated for years that he wanted a game based on fun and gear distinction based on looks only. He has also stated that he hates the “gear progression” approach. He is a former Blizzard employee that was a part of the team that made WOW classic.

They have changed their core product design after 3 months and $2 million in sales. I know that I bought the game because they said “no stat gear progression.” Many others bought the game for the same reason.

Why did you buy this game? Why do you believe it is okay for you to want a company to change its core product design?

Would you be happy if a traditional MMO like WOW eliminated raids because some people hate them?

One could technically argue Halo multiplayer or any game where you can connect with any number of uniquely grouped players to be an MMO; if you want to go based on the English definitions of the words alone that is. Gw2, WoW, TERA, etc. are technically OWMMORPGs: Open World Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games. GW1 and most free to plays like Vindictus and Dragon Nest are COpMMORPGs: Cooperative Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games… technically =/

Personally, I’m no longer amused with these seemingly incestuous, inbred ideologies. There are plenty of game genres out there that allow for horizontal progression that would be perfectly viable for an open world MMO.

If they really wanted to add a new tier of gear that badly they could have made ascended a tier higher than legendary (still no stat increases, but maybe some unique skills or mechanics?) and added legendary sigils to them that would be just plain epic (maybe something like a larger spin on the Sigil of Fire; modify the flame blast a bit to look more unique, have it last a second longer, and the AOE be like 10 times the size of the superior version). Then, drop the current legendaries requirements a tad to “bridge the gap” between exotics.

I could spin off twists and new ideas all day, all week long, probably even all year long that could have been better than an aging treadmill system.

They said they were trying to bring elements of many different genres into the design of Gw2, but if they even attempted to follow through with that; they did a piss poor job of it.

Many players that complain do like the game still, but I know for at least me it’s frustrating being on the outside (well that should change here in about 2 years once I’m done with school at least; then I can be frustrated coming up with solutions to problems ).

Gw2 is a highly polished game world, but it lacks strength in many areas that it should be a lot stronger in.

I love how he says “go underdogs get rid of the bland gameplay” when GW2 went from an independent (enough) 3 man startup, to a ground breaking MMO maker. . .

To World of Guildcraft 2 : Grind kittens. And it’s the last part, when they became the bland normalcy we see everywhere that cannot innovate or make fun, that he says it’s not unique.

Reminds me of the time I hosted a DnD game and got yelled at for making men-wolf and wolf-men when I should have been original and make shape shifting were wolves that used the lunar cycle and were vulnerable to silver.

Original!

I dislike how people think there is only one way an MMO should be. Your way is not wrong, but it’s not the only way. Guild Wars 2 is a perfect example…excuse me, was a perfect example…

GADefence.5634:

I do adore dego’s logic, it’s like if we went back to Doom’s day. He’d be blasting FPS do not have jumping and anyone who tries to add jumping isn’t making an FPS as FPS’ do not have jumping so we’re all obviously wrong and stupid.

I won’t lie that at the moment I can’t. That being said, a few probably will (I really do not feel like booting up MMOdatabase and spending half an hour arguing with you here). That said, minecraft doesn’t have tier progression. Neither did the sims. Amongst the best selling games ever, right?

Or how about the face book games that rank up millions upon millions of players a month despite basically being filler with no tier progression other then cool/pretty items? (Yes, you can technically argue that farmville has tier since I think you at some point unlock a 3×3 plow from what I saw my mom play of it, but it looked like you could buy that early – that’s not progression, that’s annoying you into buying it. Please don’t be stupid enough to argue this without understanding it). Holy crap, that’s more then a lot of the none-world of war craft MMOs combined! In a game with no tiers! Holy shnazz!

This game promised us no gear tiers, was doing well, and could have added stuff like guild halls to keep us happy and busy. Instead, nexon deceided to buy it out, change the game’s progress completely, and well . . . I don’t have the metrics, but from what I noticed logging into random locations, it looks like LA is filled with more people yet the rest of the world has dropped. The overall looks like more people dropped then joined.

Time will tell won’t it? I predict F2P by next years unless Nexon lets go and ANet can do some damage control.

“You guys can’t name any other TRUE MMO, that have gear stat progression, because there are none. "

I would like to point out that the reason for that is simple, and the very same reason that until jumping became standard FPS didn’t bother adding it.

It’s par the course. They can get away with it, but guess what? Wow, 30% subscription loss. Name me another MMO with over 3 million players, look at facebook and tell me the 6~ multi game million players you see there isn’t that same.

I also assume you think PS2 isn’t a real MMO.

Farmville, Minecraft, and The Sims aren’t really Primarily PVP games are they, I really don’t know, I don’t get into those games. Those games are about building stuff right? So how are those games anything like GW2? Apples and oranges if you ask me.

PS2 is an MMOFPS, a bad one, but it’s an MMO nonetheless. With gear progression to boot :P

DegoLocc.5976:

Or for that matter, just name one true MMO that there is no gear progression, and all players are equal.

You talked about “proven experience and evidence” supporting your claim that gear progression is bad for MMO’s. So let’s see it? I’ll wait.

You seem unaware that many people bought this game because Anet hyped no gear progression, and all players are equal. Apparently, there is a large audience this concept appeals to. Including me. I LOVED the thought of wvw and pvp that was skill based and not gear based.

In other games, I’ve been the player in crap gear and the player in top tier gear. The difference top tier gear made was astounding. I don’t care how skilled you were, I could own a lower geared player without thought or effort. Gear always makes a difference. And before you say Ascended gear won’t make a difference, keep in mind the developer comment that Ascended gear will not be available in pvp, so as not to upset the pvp balance. Might hurt tournaments/e-sports, and we can’t be having that.

DegoLocc.5976:

Take gear progression out the game, might as well take gear out the game, and then what do you have? Super smash bros on a large scale? Another arcade beat em up. Stat progression with gear, gives battles interesting variables.

Skill vs. skill gives battles interesting variables, not gear vs. gear. I can go anywhere for that type of play, and have. I bought GW2 based on the amazing concept of skill vs. skill. Although naked wvw could be interesting.

Merthax.5172:

Uh oh, the semantics of whether GW1 is or is not an MMO. Does it really matter? Really now?

I’ll go along with GW1 not being an MMO in the sense that a Mac is not a PC (personal computer, irrespsective of OS). Even though by dictionary defintion, both items fit their respective categories, they do not meet the typical defintion per common usage. A better description for GW1 would be a Diablo-like game with horizontal progression and GUIs instead of text menus for the game lobby. Note that Diablo itself is heavily based on gear progression, much more so than your average MMORPG.

Just because no MMO that I know of has used horizontal progression doesn’t mean that GW2 shouldn’t have done it. If we stuck with only doing things that had been done before, we would all still be living in caves huddled over fires. Doing new things is necessary for any kind of evolution to take place.

Seriously suggesting League of Legends though? It has no PvE component and has a very rigid format. It fits into the e-sport theme quite well because of this, and has aspects that ANet should take note of should they truly want to develop the PvP into an e-sport. However, it really doesn’t seem relevant to discussions about the PvE portions of GW2.

It’s about having enough common sense and foresight to see that for most ppl, cosmetic player growth is simply not enough. Long term players want stats. People who don’t are for the most part not long term players, but the flavor of the week, entitled casuals.

You can disagree, but it is, what it is.

Strang.8170:

DegoLocc.5976:

It’s simply not enough, and I bought this game because despite what their “manifesto said” I new the moment they announced that they would raise level cap down the road that this game would be your standard grind. And that is good for the games longevity.

You guys can’t name any other TRUE MMO, that have gear stat progression, because there are none. If it didn’t have that no one would play for years and years and years. GW1 was a fluke, it wasn’t an MMO and there is no other game like it. Either move on, or go back to playing it. And just accept what most MMO’s players want because that is who Anet is wisely after.

And could you specify exactly why it matters that gw1 is not an mmo?
Both gw and gw2 are onlinemultiplayer titles.

If you read the thread from the beginning (unless the mods have had their way with rude posts) You’ll see why I even made the comparison, I can’t be bothered to repeat myself, but your more than welcome to re read and try and keep up with the conversation.

DegoLocc.5976:

It’s about having enough common sense and foresight to see that for most ppl, cosmetic player growth is simply not enough. Long term players want stats. People who don’t are for the most part not long term players, but the flavor of the week, entitled casuals.

You can disagree, but it is, what it is.

You =/= most people. For you cosmetic growth is not enough. For others it is. People have stuck with GW1 for 7 years with cosmetic growth. Millions of people. People have purchased this game because for them cosmetic growth was enough.

You only speak for yourself, not most people.

I don’t see how this is difficult to understand. Before this event, we have many path to exotics. We can play many races/professions at leisure without the feeling of “left behind”. Now there is only 1 path to the gears with best stats. And toying with anything but your main character feels like a waste of time. This is very bad.

This game was not static, but now it is.

“PS2 is an MMOFPS, a bad one, but it’s an MMO nonetheless. With gear progression to boot :P”

Sorry, there is no gear grind. There’s “play until this unlocks or pay us now”, which is similar but not the same. Gear grind keeps your playing until you can unlock it and gives you insane bonuses, those give you light bonuses you unlock while playing or can pay for.

But wait, ascended is light too! Not really, see. . . Everyone knew it would take 1~ week to get max level at a good play rate so they didn’t care. That’s the same as unlocking a good gun with a all your core class updates. The rest is variation. Variation can take time, and guess what – holy kitten horizontal progression ZOMG.

And yes I will admit PS2 is crap right now. Too big and too few players, but it’s also launch night and I heard a high % of player got locked out since their discount “on sale launch bundle” caused played to get locked out of their accounts.

Sai of Winter.2539:

I dislike how people think there is only one way an MMO should be. Your way is not wrong, but it’s not the only way. Guild Wars 2 is a perfect example…excuse me, was a perfect example…

Funny, I dislike when casual players come and try to make my favorite genre something it isn’t or wasn’t never meant to ever be. Want to complain until the thing is a step away from an arcade beat em up, so everyone feels fair. 8v8 are there, and they are fair for a reason. Same reason they grow repeative and tiresome. The charm of MMO’s is the brutality of trying to stay current. And if you fall behind a bit, playing the underdog until you catch up. Life isn’t fair, we can’t all be winners. Victory wouldn’t be as sweet if that was the way.

I’m sorry you guys feel lied to or whatever, I really am. But you should have seen the writing on the wall, with this being a MAJOR MMO release. And figured out how it was gonna end from there.

I’m not trying to be rude, I am just tired of kiddies crying. Be constructive that’s fine, a good amount of you arguing don’t even know the facts, or remotely what Anets plans are, they made this awesome game, let’s thank them for that, and respect what they are trying to do with it, and hear them out.

Regardless, all of you have gotten your 60 bucks worth of playtime and content. So even if you do leave, leave on good terms, and don’t burn bridges out of heat of the moment, overreacting childish rage, and threats.

Have a nice day, I’m finally off to play the real game, no more forum PVP for me tonight, but was fun. Good luck to you all in what you do.

GW1 (whether you say its an MMO, CORPG or a kitten is entirely irrelevant) proved that you dont need stat increases for people to play and pay for your game – in fact to pay enough to warrant a sequel – a better GW1! That s what we were promissed. Not WoW clone nr.435.

Everyone loves new areas, dungeons, mobs… that s what makes the game, not ever increasing stat increases so a few elite can feel better about wasting all their time in a game.

DegoLocc.5976:

Sai of Winter.2539:

I dislike how people think there is only one way an MMO should be. Your way is not wrong, but it’s not the only way. Guild Wars 2 is a perfect example…excuse me, was a perfect example…

Funny, I dislike when casual players come and try to make my favorite genre something it isn’t or wasn’t never meant to ever be. The charm of MMO’s is the brutality of trying to stay current. And if you fall behind a bit, playing the underdog until you catch up. Life isn’t fair, we can’t all be winners. Victory wouldn’t be as sweet if that was the way.

Oh. You’re that kind of player.

Move along people, this thread won’t go anywhere.

*DegoLocc Attention DegoLocc Come In DegoLocc*

Ahem.

Kindly explain why you think lack of vertical progression is alright in a persistent, online-only, multiplayer RPG with a limit of 8-16 players per combat instance, and why it is not alright in a persistent, online-only, multiplayer RPG with a limit of 100-300 (however many are allowed before an Overflow opens up) players per instance. (Note that I have helpfully bolded the word “why”, multiple times.)

Please note that the following are not, in any way, shape, or form, explanations:
– “Every other MMO has vertical progression.”
– “People expect vertical progression in an MMO.”
– “That’s just the way it is.”
– “I just like it.”

Minecraft pvp maps have some of the most innovative pvp designs i´ve seen in a while…just sayin.

And now i´m pretty sure it´s a case of troll….severe one.

DegoLocc.5976:

Sai of Winter.2539:

I dislike how people think there is only one way an MMO should be. Your way is not wrong, but it’s not the only way. Guild Wars 2 is a perfect example…excuse me, was a perfect example…

Funny, I dislike when casual players come and try to make my favorite genre something it isn’t or wasn’t never meant to ever be. The charm of MMO’s is the brutality of trying to stay current. And if you fall behind a bit, playing the underdog until you catch up. Life isn’t fair, we can’t all be winners. Victory wouldn’t be as sweet if that was the way.

Gaming is not life. Gaming is an escape, and we should aim to be fair. Guild Wars is not any other MMO, it is, well Guild Wars, different, unique. And that is (was) the product’s value proposition to many of us who don’t give a crap about any other MMOs, but pay full price for this game and had intended to pay for all future expansions at launch…… until now.

DegoLocc.5976:

Merthax.5172:

Uh oh, the semantics of whether GW1 is or is not an MMO. Does it really matter? Really now?

I’ll go along with GW1 not being an MMO in the sense that a Mac is not a PC (personal computer, irrespsective of OS). Even though by dictionary defintion, both items fit their respective categories, they do not meet the typical defintion per common usage. A better description for GW1 would be a Diablo-like game with horizontal progression and GUIs instead of text menus for the game lobby. Note that Diablo itself is heavily based on gear progression, much more so than your average MMORPG.

Just because no MMO that I know of has used horizontal progression doesn’t mean that GW2 shouldn’t have done it. If we stuck with only doing things that had been done before, we would all still be living in caves huddled over fires. Doing new things is necessary for any kind of evolution to take place.

Seriously suggesting League of Legends though? It has no PvE component and has a very rigid format. It fits into the e-sport theme quite well because of this, and has aspects that ANet should take note of should they truly want to develop the PvP into an e-sport. However, it really doesn’t seem relevant to discussions about the PvE portions of GW2.

It’s about having enough common sense and foresight to see that for most ppl, cosmetic player growth is simply not enough. Long term players want stats. People who don’t are for the most part not long term players, but the flavor of the week, entitled casuals.

You can disagree, but it is, what it is.

So you speak for most long term players accross gaming or only mmo players?

DegoLocc.5976:

Merthax.5172:

Uh oh, the semantics of whether GW1 is or is not an MMO. Does it really matter? Really now?

I’ll go along with GW1 not being an MMO in the sense that a Mac is not a PC (personal computer, irrespsective of OS). Even though by dictionary defintion, both items fit their respective categories, they do not meet the typical defintion per common usage. A better description for GW1 would be a Diablo-like game with horizontal progression and GUIs instead of text menus for the game lobby. Note that Diablo itself is heavily based on gear progression, much more so than your average MMORPG.

Just because no MMO that I know of has used horizontal progression doesn’t mean that GW2 shouldn’t have done it. If we stuck with only doing things that had been done before, we would all still be living in caves huddled over fires. Doing new things is necessary for any kind of evolution to take place.

Seriously suggesting League of Legends though? It has no PvE component and has a very rigid format. It fits into the e-sport theme quite well because of this, and has aspects that ANet should take note of should they truly want to develop the PvP into an e-sport. However, it really doesn’t seem relevant to discussions about the PvE portions of GW2.

It’s about having enough common sense and foresight to see that for most ppl, cosmetic player growth is simply not enough. Long term players want stats. People who don’t are for the most part not long term players, but the flavor of the week, entitled casuals.

You can disagree, but it is, what it is.

The stat increase is a illusion. Enemies that require the new items are just as easy for you to kill. You not gaining skill only numbers.

Stats are just a number to me that gates content. Cosmetic player growth are real progression I can see. Other things like houses, mini-games, guild halls are going to be part of horizontal progression.

let’s say during launch all this ascended gear was presented, i do not think many gw1 players will really be against it.

In my opinion, i think what arenanet stepped on was more fundamental than “gear treadmill” whatever reasons it may be. They stepped on the trust that guild wars 1 players were expecting.

I personally cannot trust arenanet with any of their words or uphold their principles

Bread.7516:

let’s say during launch all this ascended gear was presented, i do not think many gw1 players will really be against it.

Yes it makes the exotics useless. Even old items should still have a use.

A game dont need MANDATORY grind to be interesting and not static.

See GW1 living up since 2005, and if you have GW2 its because it live pretty nicely ( maybe not like the Stupid WoW, but still )

Also, its not a “mmo” like you are used to, but its still a MMOs = massive multiplayer online game, Right ?

It never have been static ANY single second.
Also, there wasnt any mandatory grind, yes really, you didnt had to grind anything to enjoy all the content you wanted to.

I cant believe there is plow like you who are brainwashed with grinding mmo like WoW / Aion, or whatever stupid korean mmo, who cannot imagine that a mmo cant be fun and interesting without any sort of mandatory grind
( its a bit like people who think that FPS = COD with a PAD, and nothing else, for god, buy a brain instead of game, it wouldnt hurt you )

And that’s what people complain about. The Mandatory of the LONG ascended gear farming.
No one say that the game never have to change or evolve, you understand everything just totaly wrong with your very limited thinking.

pathetic.

Onshidesigns.1069:

Bread.7516:

let’s say during launch all this ascended gear was presented, i do not think many gw1 players will really be against it.

Yes it makes the exotics useless. Even old items should still have a use.

I think you misunderstood, i was saying what if ascended tier was already present from the beginning.

I do agree that exotic would be useless/disposable, such as rares right now are only for disposable gear, ectos, or maybe forge food. If ascended gear was present at the beginning i would not have bothered to gear up all my characters with exotic accessories with different build specs for each one.

lol’d at people saying GW1 is not MMO game… get your term right kiddo. it is also CORPG, which is another branch of MMO…. but it is still an MMO game.

DegoLocc.5976:

Funny, I dislike when casual players come and try to make my favorite genre something it isn’t or wasn’t never meant to ever be.

“Your favorite genre” “Casuals come”

We bought a product that the seller said would not have “gear stat progression.” We did not buy it then make them change it. However, the people who like “vertical gear progression” did. People like you knew that this was not in the game. Then you complained after playing supposedly all the content and stated that “its boring now that I am lvl 80. it needs vertical progression.”

This may be your favorite genre but you do not own it. If a company wants to do something different, they have that right. If they make money off of it good. Arenanet said that their box sales exceeded projections. Since this is not a sub-based game, box sales is a key financial indicator.

The only other revenue stream for them right now is cash shop sales. Are you planning to keep this game afloat with cash shop purchases?

Me, yes I did and yes I was planning to spend more. Others that liked horizontal progression had done the same. I wanted Arenanet to know that I liked what they had to offer and their decision to offer something new in the MMORPG genre.

DegoLocc.5976:

Basically they like the idea of MMO’s but don’t like the grind. So they want a more arcade type game.

I think they should play games more suited for them, ie: league of legends, and fighter beat em ups, where there is no gear.

They forget, if we all had the same gear out the gate, what’s the point of even having gear? Cosmetics? Yea we’ll see how long that holds your average MMO player.

Something a lot of ppl miss is that games like that have there own grind its a skill mostly but its task you must do over and over until you get good at it LoL is a very skill / info base game if you do not have them you have a bad time and lose. Most fighter beat am ups have so much depth to them now that you must live the game to get good so i am not sure where ppl are getting that gaming over all is not a grind.
I just do not get it there just so much self denial going on in the gaming community (saying what they do not like but crying tears of joy when a game has the very thing they hate).

DegoLocc.5976:

Basically they like the idea of MMO’s but don’t like the grind. So they want a more arcade type game.

I think they should play games more suited for them, ie: league of legends, and fighter beat em ups, where there is no gear.

They forget, if we all had the same gear out the gate, what’s the point of even having gear? Cosmetics? Yea we’ll see how long that holds your average MMO player.

Skill>Patience to Grind

I played GW1 for 6 years & LOVED being able to come back and still be evenly matched with everyone (gear-wise). If I lost a fight, it wasn’t because I had crappy gear, but because that person was more skilled than me and knew how to approach me. Or they just had a build that made mine worthless (blind spam mes QQ)

DegoLocc.5976:

gw1 was not an MMO

Ah, here it is again.

Guild Wars is indeed an MMO. It meets the fundamental criteria:
- Hosted, online
- Persistent world (yes, the hubs count, sorry)
- Large number of concurrent users (thousands or more)

The website for the title describes the game as an MMO that avoids “some of the more tedious aspects” of the genre. Also from the website (emphasis mine):

“Like existing MMOs, Guild Wars is played entirely online in a secure hosted environment. Thousands of players inhabit the same virtual world. Players can meet new friends in gathering places like towns and outposts where they form parties and go questing with them.”

Please note that the aforementioned qualifying elements of an MMO are all mentioned in that quote. Please also note that if the game was not recognized as an MMO by those who designed it, language such as “like existing MMOs” wouldn’t have been incorporated into their product descriptions.

Furthermore, the industry has considered it an MMO (and an MMORPG). Game journalists have routinely referred to it as an MMO (and an MMORPG), and such quotes from those journalists can be found on the title’s website.

Guild Wars was marketed as a Cooperative Online Roleplaying Game in order to distinguish it from many of the common conventions of the MMORPG subgrenre (not MMOs in general). “CORPG” is not a separate genre, because one title does not a genre make. But even if it were a genre, it would be a counted as a subgenre of the MMO genre category.

MMO and MMORPG are not synonymous. I made a lengthy post about this very subject a couple of days ago.

But even if, after all this, you still want to claim that “Guild Wars is not an MMO”, that does not preclude the translation of its gear model to the MMORPG genre.

As for the design element of vertical gear progression (VGP), there have been many MMORPGs, past and present, that have either not had this element or did not make this element central to the design. The enhancement system of City of Heroes would barely qualify. It did not drive play or serve as a draw, as a “traditional” VGP is expected to do. Ultima Online didn’t have VGP for many years, nor did, I’m given to understand, Dark Age of Camelot.

What’s interesting about these particular titles, though, is that they all added VGP later in their development, and it was considered by many to be a mistake in all three cases. It certainly didn’t have any notable effects on their numbers.

Anarchy Online still, to my knowledge, does not have VGP. Does EVE? I’m not certain about that one. Don’t think The Secret World has it. In any case, over the past 20 years, there have been literally hundreds of MMORPG titles. I’m sure quite a few without VGP can be found.

Is VGP a common convention of the genre? Yes, especially since the rise of World of Warcraft. But convention is not the same thing as fundamental attribute.

DegoLocc.5976:

Strang.8170:

DegoLocc.5976:

Take gear progression out the game, might as well take gear out the game, and then what do you have? Super smash bros on a large scale? Another arcade beat em up. Stat progression with gear, gives battles interesting variables.

Cosmetic progression(it´s enough, and frankly i don´t know why you bought the game if it´s not…), horizontal progression: trying out new playstyles (without it taking weeks to regear), trying out new professions(without it taking months to level and gear them up), actualy experiencing the whole world (i call bullkitten on many of the players claiming to have done all the content)…vertical gear treadmill is not the one and only way of making progression.

We give the game a power plateu, we have a massive persistent ever changing world where the character you created and the amount of skill you can play with it determine outcome of your battles. Where you as a players are what matters, instead of data on a spreadsheet.

It’s simply not enough, and I bought this game because despite what their “manifesto said” I knew the moment they announced that they would raise level cap down the road that this game would be your standard grind. And that is good for the games longevity.

You guys can’t name any other TRUE MMO, that doesn’t have gear stat progression, because there are none. If it didn’t have that no one would play for years and years and years. GW1 was a fluke, it wasn’t an MMO and there is no other game like it. Either move on, or go back to playing it. And just accept what most MMO’s players want because that is who Anet is wisely after.

Guild Wars 1: 6.5 Million Copies sold; including all expansions. Guild Wars 2: 2 Million Copies sold. Guild Wars 1 invented and followed the model of ‘No Grind’. Guild Wars 2 sold under that same model.

Last time I checked, Guild Wars One was 2nd in sales as an MMO. Besides WoW, who is trumping GW2 in sales? I mean, Anet did make if very clear that its not another WoW or grind based gear… yet it still trumpts all others besides WoW.

A game doesn’t become casual just because players want different mechanics than “burn this much time into farming for this item.” It also doesn’t mean that it automatically has to be easy either.

Personally, I wish the content was more difficult; however, difficult and becoming purely gear reliant are two completely different things. I want challenging gameplay and a variety of it too(in dungeons as well):

*Jump Puzzles (I love them)
*Massive Labyrinths (Not the kiddy Sharks maw kind; although that was a neat spot)
*Spatial Reasoning Puzzles
*Etc.

The enemy AI attacks could be better as well; combos, better telegraphing, etc.

DegoLocc.5976:

“Funny, I dislike when casual players come and try to make my favorite genre something it isn’t or wasn’t never meant to ever be.”

Post a screen shot of your Arah set, Legendary (or Progress of Legendary), and Achivements. Lets see how… Hard Core you are.

Due to the inflammatory tone of this thread, it will be closed. Please keep in mind that if you want to discuss issues on our forums, you have to do it in a constructive way.