Guild Wars 2

I just cannot understand why people consider the “Zerk Meta” a problem. It is fast, it is efficient, it is fun to play with and it do not work on every situation – sometimes you have to adapt to the content. Oh, you don’t have enough diversity in builds? I beg to disagree, for you do, actually. Just because most of the itens people use have Zerk stats doesn’t mean that the builds are identical. Players use many different combinations of sigils, runes, traits and skills, and that alone creates new builds. That simple thought of “oh, I’m dying too easily in this type of boss, because of this I’ll change my X skill and maybe change my accessorys” – this alone is a new build. If you use the pure “meta” you won’t achieve the same effectiveness in a certain content than the guy who did those little adaptations. That is so true that you can see hundreds of videos of people soloing DGs where they change weapons and the whole trait setup for a single boss fight, and in a few of those videos the player change even the set in specific parts of the dungeon. Now, if that is not diversity, idk what it is.

Edit: and PLS do not bring the Trinity for GW2 because that sucks.

I use quite a diverse set of skills. I’ll just explain my Engi but I do similar things on each profession.

Utilities: General Damage “Zerk build” setup is Healing Turret, Nades, EG, FT, Supply Crate.
Toolkit- swapped for unblockable Magnet pull, Cripple uptime, and extra blocks, as well as confusion stacks which don’t hurt and can be pretty nice.
Bombkit – Swapped for Stealthing, mighting, Blinds, immob, or general larger radius attacks for say old Ice Elemental
Elixir U – Projectile Wall, with a side bonus of haste
Elixir S – Stealth and invuln for skipping/some tougher bosses (invuln is amazing on PUG Lupi with lots of bubbles before the nerf to those things)
Elixir C – condi removal, rarer use but it’s a very potent tool
Net Turret – Immob heavy situations, Tar, Thaumanova Ooze, Ranged Mossman/archdiviner.
AED – Tricks, Orb in Arah, or Heat Room in Thaumanova
Elixir B – Stab, Aetherblade Fractal to help the guard for example, side bonus of might and such

THose would be my very regularly used utilities. AED, B, and C are a bit more rare as in a couple situations that I do quite regularly, but most of those tools have quite a few uses.

Traits: “Zerk build” is 66002 with static discharge. I’ll just list all the trait options I use
Speedy Kits – honestly almost never use SD as I find that perma swiftness too good to give up outside of organized groups who actually give eachother swiftness.
Fireforged Trigger – great with the EG/FT meta build, but also good for faster blinds on FT.
10% on explosions – forget name, but yeah meta trait for damage
Short fuse – basic replacement for that 10%er, great for more consistent blind fields or chills, gives faster smokebomb and flash grenade.
Hair Trigger – faster reuse on rifle skills giving more immob, great on a lot of fights
Longer Range rifle – again forget trait name, but good for ranged fights that you want immob, like ascalon fractal done PUG way (range) allows you to immob from afar.
Rifle Mod – more damage on rifle
Infused Precision – crit = swiftness, not great on it’s own but synergizes with the next trait
Invigorating Speed – swiftness = vigor, perma vigor is sweet.

So I don’t know, I think I have quite a list of diverse traits and utilities I swap around in my normal day of play. Honestly I’ve gone through fractals and used the majority of this list just in the one run.

If you equate build with gear, then sure you can claim that it isn’t diverse because the best is zerker/assassin hands down, but gear isn’t what creates a build.

edgarallanpwn.8739:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

edgarallanpwn.8739:

NoTrigger.8396:

edgarallanpwn.8739:

In other games like WoW, there are required classes for fights and dungeons, raids, etc.

No matter how wow plays, ALL roles get a piece of the pie.

Here, everyone goes zerker, because its what’s best, but at least in WoW, you can BE a tank, and that’s a good thing.

In gw2 if you’re a tank, it just “slows the team down”

Condition builds(Like dots builds in WoW), aren’t effective here. Thus is only power zerker builds.

I want to see variation increased as a whole in gw2, so that way other roles are more accepted, and useful.

The way to fix this is…. to fix what makes zerker so viable. And dodging/ boss attacks are part of that.

there arent tanks in gw2 and thats why a player who wants to roleplay a tank will slow everything down.
and everyone is supporting each other. every single meta build is a support build.

Exactly my point. Why even offer build diversity at this point?

Azure The Heartless.3261:

edgarallanpwn.8739:

In other games like WoW, there are required classes for fights and dungeons, raids, etc.

No matter how wow plays, ALL roles get a piece of the pie.

Here, everyone goes zerker, because its what’s best, but at least in WoW, you can BE a tank, and that’s a good thing.

In gw2 if you’re a tank, it just “slows the team down”

Condition builds(Like dots builds in WoW), aren’t effective here. Thus is only power zerker builds.

I want to see variation increased as a whole in gw2, so that way other roles are more accepted, and useful.

The way to fix this is…. to fix what makes zerker so viable. And dodging/ boss attacks are part of that.

You’re trying to fix an issue with inefficacy of holy trinity roles in a game that not only does not have them, but does not use a normal aggro table to even begin to support roles.

Guild wars 2 doesnt need tanks. you can be support just as well by being a decent guardian. The other specs are to compensate for builds that lack mobility or deal certain damages.

You CAN, but why? There’s literally no reason to. If you can dodge everything, go glass cannon and do everything exactly the same, why is there any reason to do anything else?

It has nothing to do with holy trinity, so that’s an invalid point. Please reread my comment. It has to do with offering different stats, and builds, and not having them be useful.

You have a game that offers build variability, with no way to support them, or make them viable. Having a better aggro table would be a good start.

In other games there’s a reason to be a tank, a reason to be ranged dps, a reason to etc. Here you get none of that. I understand how it CURRENTLY works, i just would like to see some change.

Now note i never said it SHOULD be required, or any of that, so please look at my point again.

?

But the builds are viable.

You can use whatever the hell you want in terms of gear, and if your build can make the best of it, it works.

Just because it’s viable does not mean it will be the best at doing everything, or even filling a requirement for a specific game mode.

I’m not sure I understand. Of course you arent asking for enforced roles; but are you asking instead for a system rework in which it doesn’t matter (or perhaps matters less re: damage) which stats you build with, in order to make all of the gear equally optimal in every situation?

Not equally optimal either, just MORE so than they are now. There’s such a big gap that now we have the zerker meta, and there’s no reason to go anything else. Yes meta’s form, yes metas are what;s optimal, but metas can change, and exist for a reason.

More along the lines of what tbone said.

nothing will ever be equally optimal, because its impossible.

you shouldnt forget that people ran the content for over 2 years now.
as soon as we see more challenging content 90%+ of the playerbase will stop using berserker gear because it will be too hard for them to beat the content in berserker.

edgarallanpwn.8739:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

edgarallanpwn.8739:

NoTrigger.8396:

edgarallanpwn.8739:

In other games like WoW, there are required classes for fights and dungeons, raids, etc.

No matter how wow plays, ALL roles get a piece of the pie.

Here, everyone goes zerker, because its what’s best, but at least in WoW, you can BE a tank, and that’s a good thing.

In gw2 if you’re a tank, it just “slows the team down”

Condition builds(Like dots builds in WoW), aren’t effective here. Thus is only power zerker builds.

I want to see variation increased as a whole in gw2, so that way other roles are more accepted, and useful.

The way to fix this is…. to fix what makes zerker so viable. And dodging/ boss attacks are part of that.

there arent tanks in gw2 and thats why a player who wants to roleplay a tank will slow everything down.
and everyone is supporting each other. every single meta build is a support build.

Exactly my point. Why even offer build diversity at this point?

Azure The Heartless.3261:

edgarallanpwn.8739:

In other games like WoW, there are required classes for fights and dungeons, raids, etc.

No matter how wow plays, ALL roles get a piece of the pie.

Here, everyone goes zerker, because its what’s best, but at least in WoW, you can BE a tank, and that’s a good thing.

In gw2 if you’re a tank, it just “slows the team down”

Condition builds(Like dots builds in WoW), aren’t effective here. Thus is only power zerker builds.

I want to see variation increased as a whole in gw2, so that way other roles are more accepted, and useful.

The way to fix this is…. to fix what makes zerker so viable. And dodging/ boss attacks are part of that.

You’re trying to fix an issue with inefficacy of holy trinity roles in a game that not only does not have them, but does not use a normal aggro table to even begin to support roles.

Guild wars 2 doesnt need tanks. you can be support just as well by being a decent guardian. The other specs are to compensate for builds that lack mobility or deal certain damages.

You CAN, but why? There’s literally no reason to. If you can dodge everything, go glass cannon and do everything exactly the same, why is there any reason to do anything else?

It has nothing to do with holy trinity, so that’s an invalid point. Please reread my comment. It has to do with offering different stats, and builds, and not having them be useful.

You have a game that offers build variability, with no way to support them, or make them viable. Having a better aggro table would be a good start.

In other games there’s a reason to be a tank, a reason to be ranged dps, a reason to etc. Here you get none of that. I understand how it CURRENTLY works, i just would like to see some change.

Now note i never said it SHOULD be required, or any of that, so please look at my point again.

?

But the builds are viable.

You can use whatever the hell you want in terms of gear, and if your build can make the best of it, it works.

Just because it’s viable does not mean it will be the best at doing everything, or even filling a requirement for a specific game mode.

I’m not sure I understand. Of course you arent asking for enforced roles; but are you asking instead for a system rework in which it doesn’t matter (or perhaps matters less re: damage) which stats you build with, in order to make all of the gear equally optimal in every situation?

Not equally optimal either, just MORE so than they are now. There’s such a big gap that now we have the zerker meta, and there’s no reason to go anything else. Yes meta’s form, yes metas are what;s optimal, but metas can change, and exist for a reason.

More along the lines of what tbone said.

Oh. Whatever then. I’m all for making gear not-useless.

@Notrigger

until they get used to it.

Could add secondary effects to the less-used gears, or add some kind of perk that enhances their usability without disrupting the state of zerker as it is. Forcing people to take damage when they otherwise wouldnt isnt the way to go; but allowing them to be usable (maybbbe in dungeons, Iunno how that would work) is all good.

for example. a build that does horrible damage but is incredibly fast (msi) could see dungeon use.

Not just dodge but, as others have stated, also blind, blocks, and CC’s. Having damage negation and your finger tips is a wonderful thing. Its because of all those it its viable. Those who blame the zerker meta for everything do it because they can not utilize these or their environment properly. If u can’t dodge anymore or block the damage try hiding behind a rock. Guess what! OBSTRUCTED! The entire game utilizes these ideas in all of its content. There are a a couple places where having some toughness or condi helps such as staying alive on a switch or enemies with low hp but high armor (husks).

Those who can Do; those who can’t complain.

the real question is: do you want to sit 1-3 hours in LFG looking for healer and tank?

because this is exactly what happens in wow and other classic mmorpgs….

i certanly don’t want so called holy trinity

besides i don’t think you understand what impact it would have on classes that are squishy even if they go full tank (mesmers/thieves)…. if anet really focused more on tankiness we would see massive survival buffs to those classes which would lead to huge imbalance in wvw/pvp…

just because you want to equip some armor and afk at boss while spamming 1 and soaking up all dmg, doesn’t mean that everyone wants it too…

I’m posting a lot here, but the viability of the zerker mechanic is not a bad thing. If anything it is a sign of proficiency. I’m all for making other builds more optimal for certain situations, but trying to take apart the fact that people have gotten good enough to run zerker by throwing obstacles in their path in an effort to slow them down so (perhaps) they’d be more compelled to run with more toughness and thus accept people that also run with more toughness for speed runs (because that is the only place I can even fathom where someone else’s build causes one to give two kittens)(Is that the line of reasoning here?), is just petty.

I use toughness as a stat placeholder. It can be anything not damage oriented.

maha.7902:

because this game is balanced around pvp where multiple gear stats are actually used?

“don’t see any use”?

please at least do some research before making bold claims like that.

Not really, pvp uses like 2-3 amulets. Mostly celestial and berserker’s. I’m wondering why…? Maybe AI isn’t strong enough.

rotten.9753:

maha.7902:

because this game is balanced around pvp where multiple gear stats are actually used?

“don’t see any use”?

please at least do some research before making bold claims like that.

Not really, pvp uses like 2-3 amulets. Mostly celestial and berserker’s. I’m wondering why…? Maybe AI isn’t strong enough.

The majority of people in pvp know their classes well enough to not care about taking damage, or have builds oriented around outlasting berserker (which also shows proficiency).

Then there are the condi builds that use rabid and carrion.

Then there are knight/valk amulet warriors/thieves, respectively..

What’s this talk about AI not being strong enough?

rotten.9753:

maha.7902:

because this game is balanced around pvp where multiple gear stats are actually used?

“don’t see any use”?

please at least do some research before making bold claims like that.

Not really, pvp uses like 2-3 amulets. Mostly celestial and berserker’s. I’m wondering why…? Maybe AI isn’t strong enough.

have you checked pvp lately? it flooded with turret engis….

Azure The Heartless.3261:

The majority of people in pvp know their classes well enough to not care about taking damage, or have builds oriented around outlasting berserker (which also shows proficiency).

Then there are the condi builds that use rabid and carrion.

Then there are knight/valk amulet warriors/thieves, respectively..

What’s this talk about AI not being strong enough?

I’m talking about spvp, the meta is simple and it’s celestial plus berserker’s. There is only one condie spec that could be considered meta and it’s not used in any tournament anymore (it also uses carrion, not rabid).

I mentioned AI because a lot of people seem to be under an assumption that making AI smarter will completely change meta.

Cynz.9437:

the real question is: do you want to sit 1-3 hours in LFG looking for healer and tank?

because this is exactly what happens in wow and other classic mmorpgs….

i certanly don’t want so called holy trinity

besides i don’t think you understand what impact it would have on classes that are squishy even if they go full tank (mesmers/thieves)…. if anet really focused more on tankiness we would see massive survival buffs to those classes which would lead to huge imbalance in wvw/pvp…

just because you want to equip some armor and afk at boss while spamming 1 and soaking up all dmg, doesn’t mean that everyone wants it too…

I played dps and my ques were never more than 20-30m at MOST even in lfr.

HUGE overstatement.

Also has nothing to do with holy trinity. And if you think a thief/Mesmer would be going tank.. then i’m not sure you understand the mechanics properly.

Thiefs have tons of dodge mechanics and evasion built in specifically because they’re dps only.

Mesmers have dodge, and clones to dash around and dodge dmg.

“ust because you want to equip some armor and afk at boss while spamming 1 and soaking up all dmg, doesn’t mean that everyone wants it too…”

Since when does a tank afk in wow? In WoW tanks are crucial. They hold aggro, and keep the bosses and mobs from wiping the team. they have to learn to rotate cooldowns, rotate aggro, position the bosses in phases and much more.

Cynz.9437:

have you checked pvp lately? it flooded with turret engis….

Em, the analogy is between AI in pve (your enemy) and sort-of-AI in pvp (players). No need to bring kitten to this already fruitless discussion.

edgarallanpwn.8739:

I played dps and my ques were never more than 20-30m at MOST even in lfr.

HUGE overstatement.

And now you wait a couple of seconds in a game which has much lower population.

Also has nothing to do with holy trinity. And if you think a thief/Mesmer would be going tank.. then i’m not sure you understand the mechanics properly.

Thiefs have tons of dodge mechanics and evasion built in specifically because they’re dps only.

Mesmers have dodge, and clones to dash around and dodge dmg.

Because when you evade you usually can’t be hit?

maha.7902:

because this game is balanced around pvp where multiple gear stats are actually used?

“don’t see any use”?

please at least do some research before making bold claims like that.

clearly this thread is about pve and not pvp so you should probably read the thread before telling me to do my research.

edgarallanpwn.8739:

Since when does a tank afk in wow? In WoW tanks are crucial. They hold aggro, and keep the bosses and mobs from wiping the team. they have to learn to rotate cooldowns, rotate aggro, position the bosses in phases and much more.

Surely, but here your typical tanks just afk.

rotten.9753:

edgarallanpwn.8739:

Since when does a tank afk in wow? In WoW tanks are crucial. They hold aggro, and keep the bosses and mobs from wiping the team. they have to learn to rotate cooldowns, rotate aggro, position the bosses in phases and much more.

Surely, but here your typical tanks just afk.

Yes.

Again, aggro table. If anything shows what the intent of the gameplay was, it’s how the monsters prioritize targets.

No offense meant, but it seems a bit rude to ask them to change that, besides.

edgarallanpwn.8739:

And if you think a thief/Mesmer would be going tank.. then i’m not sure you understand the mechanics properly.

Thiefs have tons of dodge mechanics and evasion built in specifically because they’re dps only.

Mesmers have dodge, and clones to dash around and dodge dmg.

Probably off topic and apropos of nothing, but if GW2 had the trinity and a group was looking for a tank, it could do much worse than adding a thief. A sw/pistol thief is the best face-tanking class that I have played in GW2. Pistol whip ftw.

edgarallanpwn.8739:

Cynz.9437:

the real question is: do you want to sit 1-3 hours in LFG looking for healer and tank?

because this is exactly what happens in wow and other classic mmorpgs….

i certanly don’t want so called holy trinity

besides i don’t think you understand what impact it would have on classes that are squishy even if they go full tank (mesmers/thieves)…. if anet really focused more on tankiness we would see massive survival buffs to those classes which would lead to huge imbalance in wvw/pvp…

just because you want to equip some armor and afk at boss while spamming 1 and soaking up all dmg, doesn’t mean that everyone wants it too…

I played dps and my ques were never more than 20-30m at MOST even in lfr.

HUGE overstatement.

Also has nothing to do with holy trinity. And if you think a thief/Mesmer would be going tank.. then i’m not sure you understand the mechanics properly.

Thiefs have tons of dodge mechanics and evasion built in specifically because they’re dps only.

Mesmers have dodge, and clones to dash around and dodge dmg.

“ust because you want to equip some armor and afk at boss while spamming 1 and soaking up all dmg, doesn’t mean that everyone wants it too…”

Since when does a tank afk in wow? In WoW tanks are crucial. They hold aggro, and keep the bosses and mobs from wiping the team. they have to learn to rotate cooldowns, rotate aggro, position the bosses in phases and much more.

it really depends on dungeon, it is already hard to find people to run lv 50 fractals for example… even now

and there were indeed times when it took really long to get a tank or healing for dungeon run in wow….i personally sat an hour sometimes as dps….
not to mention that wow actually always had holy trinity so people were at least prepared… what do you think will happen to gw2 if anet suddely expected people to tank encounters… where majority don’t run tanks/healers?

thieves have as many dodges as any other class unless they specifically trait/build for it which means they have to drop a lot of dmg for it…. why would i run thief then if i could run warrior, be tanky and still dish out a lot of dmg?

clones don’t stop aoe dmg…. also isn’t this thread specifically about making dodges less viable? why do you bring up thief/mesmer dodge if it won’t be as viable? pointless isn’kitten

and please, don’t tell me that tanking in wow isn’t brainless; i had my share of playing blood dk in raids/dungeons~ even in encounters with difficult mechanics it is still a lot up to gear you are wearing and maybe pressing CD…. don’t even make me start on dungeons…..

im sorry this thread is too funny. This is hilarious. its so funny because ive been playing since around release and for the longest time everyone keeps saying go zerk or go home, hop into a dungeon everyone dies and people still say go zerk or go home. Others and I have been kicked quite a few times just for being a necro why? because apparently we can’t zerk like the other classes.

The zerk culture is really so silly. You want to know what is optimal? its not a 5 man zerk squad, there should be at least one slightly tanky person to rez and pull aggro when necessary. Like the OP says, dodge makes zerk viable, but its not just dodge because not every class has high endurance regeneration. Can you completely avoid or severely reduce damage for a long time with zerk? if not go home or run something else.

Its probably time to stop forcing people to use high damage builds

Its a good thought but I dont think there should be attacks that cant be dodged perhaps attacks that cant be blocked used by intelligent AI.

How KungFu master became a Master? He is able to defeat enemy in a shortest period of time, by being so skillful that he can’t be hit but he will hit your with a lot of power. This is in parallel of what Zerkers’ like in GW2.

Cynz.9437:

edgarallanpwn.8739:

Cynz.9437:

the real question is: do you want to sit 1-3 hours in LFG looking for healer and tank?

because this is exactly what happens in wow and other classic mmorpgs….

i certanly don’t want so called holy trinity

besides i don’t think you understand what impact it would have on classes that are squishy even if they go full tank (mesmers/thieves)…. if anet really focused more on tankiness we would see massive survival buffs to those classes which would lead to huge imbalance in wvw/pvp…

just because you want to equip some armor and afk at boss while spamming 1 and soaking up all dmg, doesn’t mean that everyone wants it too…

I played dps and my ques were never more than 20-30m at MOST even in lfr.

HUGE overstatement.

Also has nothing to do with holy trinity. And if you think a thief/Mesmer would be going tank.. then i’m not sure you understand the mechanics properly.

Thiefs have tons of dodge mechanics and evasion built in specifically because they’re dps only.

Mesmers have dodge, and clones to dash around and dodge dmg.

“ust because you want to equip some armor and afk at boss while spamming 1 and soaking up all dmg, doesn’t mean that everyone wants it too…”

Since when does a tank afk in wow? In WoW tanks are crucial. They hold aggro, and keep the bosses and mobs from wiping the team. they have to learn to rotate cooldowns, rotate aggro, position the bosses in phases and much more.

it really depends on dungeon, it is already hard to find people to run lv 50 fractals for example… even now

and there were indeed times when it took really long to get a tank or healing for dungeon run in wow….i personally sat an hour sometimes as dps….
not to mention that wow actually always had holy trinity so people were at least prepared… what do you think will happen to gw2 if anet suddely expected people to tank encounters… where majority don’t run tanks/healers?

thieves have as many dodges as any other class unless they specifically trait/build for it which means they have to drop a lot of dmg for it…. why would i run thief then if i could run warrior, be tanky and still dish out a lot of dmg?

clones don’t stop aoe dmg…. also isn’t this thread specifically about making dodges less viable? why do you bring up thief/mesmer dodge if it won’t be as viable? pointless isn’kitten

and please, don’t tell me that tanking in wow isn’t brainless; i had my share of playing blood dk in raids/dungeons~ even in encounters with difficult mechanics it is still a lot up to gear you are wearing and maybe pressing CD…. don’t even make me start on dungeons…..

Its apparent you didn’t read the post that i replied to then, which if you had spent 2 seconds doing so your question would be answered. Also, playing probably what amounts to the easiest self healing tank in the game since release, in normal content not at a challenging pace, would be your problem. Unless you were doing mythic content right away(which i doubt you were as there were not many people for a while)

William Bradley Knight.2609:

edgarallanpwn.8739:

And if you think a thief/Mesmer would be going tank.. then i’m not sure you understand the mechanics properly.

Thiefs have tons of dodge mechanics and evasion built in specifically because they’re dps only.

Mesmers have dodge, and clones to dash around and dodge dmg.

Probably off topic and apropos of nothing, but if GW2 had the trinity and a group was looking for a tank, it could do much worse than adding a thief. A sw/pistol thief is the best face-tanking class that I have played in GW2. Pistol whip ftw.

This is only feasible due to the fact that all the PVE here is predictable, dodgeable, or evadeable making it easy to avoid almost all damage.

You couldn’t do that in WoW I mean the game is how it is, there’s no changing that, but it still doesn’t change that a lot of the stats in game are useless because of this

Ragion.2831:

im sorry this thread is too funny. This is hilarious. its so funny because ive been playing since around release and for the longest time everyone keeps saying go zerk or go home, hop into a dungeon everyone dies and people still say go zerk or go home. Others and I have been kicked quite a few times just for being a necro why? because apparently we can’t zerk like the other classes.

The zerk culture is really so silly. You want to know what is optimal? its not a 5 man zerk squad, there should be at least one slightly tanky person to rez and pull aggro when necessary. Like the OP says, dodge makes zerk viable, but its not just dodge because not every class has high endurance regeneration. Can you completely avoid or severely reduce damage for a long time with zerk? if not go home or run something else.

Its probably time to stop forcing people to use high damage builds

Its a good thought but I dont think there should be attacks that cant be dodged perhaps attacks that cant be blocked used by intelligent AI.

Necros aren’t excluded from meta groups because they don’t have high damage, their damage is fine. They are excluded from meta groups because they lack support.

The zerk culture is really so silly. You want to know what is optimal? its not a 5 man zerk squad, there should be at least one slightly tanky person to rez and pull aggro when necessary.

feel free to link any dungeon world record with a “slightly tanky person to rez and pull aggro”.

you know, since we’re talking about optimal.

Its probably time to stop forcing people to use high damage builds

nobody is forcing people to use high damage builds

people just don’t want to make their own groups

Its a good thought but I dont think there should be attacks that cant be dodged perhaps attacks that cant be blocked used by intelligent AI.

there are already attacks that can’t be blocked

there’s nothing “intelligent” about it, they just can’t be blocked

edgarallanpwn.8739:

Its apparent you didn’t read the post that i replied to then, which if you had spent 2 seconds doing so your question would be answered. Also, playing probably what amounts to the easiest self healing tank in the game since release, in normal content not at a challenging pace, would be your problem. Unless you were doing mythic content right away(which i doubt you were as there were not many people for a while)

well i am certanly confused because
1. you answered to my post…. if anything
2. certanly idk what mythic content is as i quit wow during mop and back then hardest content was heroic raids; me playing blood dk or not doesn’t change the point that
a) forcing players into holy trinity just causes unnecessary long queue times
b) tanks, just by definition, are still stand and soak dmg builds… yes some bosses mechanics require tank to pay attention, but most of content doesn’t so it is most boring job along with healer that most players won’t be willing to play

and don’t make me start on whole tanks asking for payment to even tank for the groups because people would rather not sit in queue for 40+ min; or the whole griefing/verball abuse comming from tanks/healers because they knew you need them as dps

this is one of the thing i will never miss from wow, ever

back to topic: as far as ussability of stats goes, i also would like to mention that certanly zerkers are prefered in dungeons… but you need a lot of players running condi builds for tripple wurm for example and wvw is filled with condi/soldier/tank builds

pvp is being run by bruisers

so i wouldn’t say that all stats are obsolete they are just more usefull in other areas of the game

I actually feel for the most part 5 man dungeons or 5man fotm 50 done in the most optimal way requires very little player skill. Player skill is a bit subjective so I will define what I think is “skill” and what is not. First being able to speed run is not very skillful. Memorizing encounters and knowing what skills to use can be taught easily. I think coming up with the strategies to make these encounters trivial is skillful theory crafting but anyone who just copies the strategy are not skillful. Berserker gear/traits actually makes dungeon/fotm trivial. In most dungeons, the general strategy at the moment is run to boss, stack 25might, glyph of storm(25 vuln) and icebow 5/4/3 boss, rinse and repeat. The DPS output of a full berserker team is so high that a boss will usually not do anything before it dies.

Ragion.2831:

You want to know what is optimal? its not a 5 man zerk squad, there should be at least one slightly tanky person to rez and pull aggro when necessary. Like the OP says, dodge makes zerk viable, but its not just dodge because not every class has high endurance regeneration. Can you completely avoid or severely reduce damage for a long time with zerk? if not go home or run something else.

How is that optimal lol?

Ever hear of active defense besides dodging before? I’m guessing not.

Well in GW2 you can reflect, provide aegis, deep freeze, bring stability, clear conditions and much more. You should probably inform yourself a bit more about the combat system so that you can relieve yourself of the terrible notion that in this game you have to have someone tanking to be optimal. It’s not true in the least bit and if you want to be taken seriously I suggest you look up some information about what the many classes in this game can provide in parties before posting.

This entire thread premise is like saying a car’s steering system allows auto accidents to happen…..
Please never attempt to teach logic to children….

Brother Grimm.5176:

This entire thread premise is like saying a car’s steering system allows auto accidents to happen…..
Please never attempt to teach logic to children….

nah i think its like saying a car’s steering system allows people to avoid auto accidents….so we should get rid of it

EcoRI.9273:

I actually feel for the most part 5 man dungeons or 5man fotm 50 done in the most optimal way requires very little player skill. Player skill is a bit subjective so I will define what I think is “skill” and what is not. First being able to speed run is not very skillful. Memorizing encounters and knowing what skills to use can be taught easily. I think coming up with the strategies to make these encounters trivial is skillful theory crafting but anyone who just copies the strategy are not skillful. Berserker gear/traits actually makes dungeon/fotm trivial. In most dungeons, the general strategy at the moment is run to boss, stack 25might, glyph of storm(25 vuln) and icebow 5/4/3 boss, rinse and repeat. The DPS output of a full berserker team is so high that a boss will usually not do anything before it dies.

Good luck on Mai Trinn.

maddoctor.2738:

A mechanic that allows skilled players to defeat content is a good mechanic for an action based game. This is by design to allow actual skill to play an important role in fights instead of relying on gear.

That’s nice and all when 2 dodges wre actually something instead of inflating dodges with permavigor and sigils of energy.

Zenith.7301:

maddoctor.2738:

A mechanic that allows skilled players to defeat content is a good mechanic for an action based game. This is by design to allow actual skill to play an important role in fights instead of relying on gear.

That’s nice and all when 2 dodges wre actually something instead of inflating dodges with permavigor and sigils of energy.

in both cases you are giving up something to achieve more survivability. Which shows that it isnt really all about dps, people are sacrificing for survival, its just an active defense, where you chooise when to reap the benefits.

If the content is too easy for the power available, thats a content problem, not a problem with dodge.

The problem isn’t that it’s impossible to avoid everything significant, it’s that it’s easy to. Make the AI less predictable, and you’ll see more diversity. Berserker wasn’t even the most commonly seen set in the last PVP tournament, people were switching to celestial for the added durability, condition damage, and healing power.

Eponet.4829:

The problem isn’t that it’s impossible to avoid everything significant, it’s that it’s easy to. Make the AI less predictable, and you’ll see more diversity. Berserker wasn’t even the most commonly seen set in the last PVP tournament, people were switching to celestial for the added durability, condition damage, and healing power.

if i wanted pve to be as boring as pvp id simply play pvp.

NoTrigger.8396:

Eponet.4829:

The problem isn’t that it’s impossible to avoid everything significant, it’s that it’s easy to. Make the AI less predictable, and you’ll see more diversity. Berserker wasn’t even the most commonly seen set in the last PVP tournament, people were switching to celestial for the added durability, condition damage, and healing power.

if i wanted pve to be as boring as pvp id simply play pvp.

Well he does have a point and thats exactly what they’re supposed to do with HoT, adding in better ai. But yeah it shouldnt push players away from berserker but instead towards becoming better players.

The new pvp meta most people would argue is a bad thing not a good one. Celestial is a somewhat broken amulet allowing people to take a fair amount of hits and deal pretty great damage especially with might. If anything that is a worse meta than having to either sacrifice survivability or sacrifice damage. If cele became meta in pve people would stack even more and just not dodge….

(altho i still think pve is more boring than pvp)

Some things to think about:

1. MMO’ are nothing but time sinks. This is especially true of PvE.
2. Content is incentivized by virtual rewards.
3. Players are happier when the virtual rewards come faster. We live in the age of instant gratification.
4. The purpose of mobs is to be defeated, preferably using the abilities the game provides so that there is some vestige of engagement on the part of the players.
5. Active defense abilities are the centerpoint of this game. There is more skill in correctly timing a dodge, block or interrupt than there is in pressing a button to attack (notice I said more skill, not absolute skill, have that debate on your own dime).
6. Actively engaging with mobs is by its very nature more engaging than passively engaging mobs.
7. In most MMO’s, characters stand in front of mobs and trade blows (the alternative to the use of active defense is passive defense).
8. This game offers both passive and active defense.
9. Just like those other games, in GW2 you can gear for passive defense, but do so at the expense of passive offense.
10. In those other games, no one thinks twice about this trade-off.
11. Just think about what happened when those other games created the QoL feature of dual spec. Virtually everyone leveling a tank or healer had a dps spec for leveling and dailies. Why? Faster fights, pure and simple.
12. This thread’s premise is that active defense enables glass gear use. This premise is flawed, because every single active defense option available to glass wearers is also available to bulky gear wearers.
13. With enough sustain, bulky gear wearers can survive through an insane amount of mob damage.
14. The primary reason for anti-glass gear threads is a desire for trinity, or something like it.
15. The next most popular reason is that players want faster kill times for defensive stats. Think about that one.
16. The third most popular reason is a dislike for skipping and stacking in dungeons. The problem there is that skipping is a product of desire for speed, which is an artifact of dungeons being farm content. Stacking is a product of buff distance, and the apparent fact that the PuG meta has not gotten the memo about FGS nerf.
17. If there were no dodging (or other active defense options) in GW2, then mobs would be different. In fact, GW2 would be a lot more like other MMO’s. Mob damage would be tuned differently. Glass gear would still kill faster than bulky gear.
18. Some posters make the contention that there is too little risk for the reward with glass gear. Yet, no one actually makes their case with numbers. The last time I saw a numbers comparison between Berserker and Soldier’s gear (it was presented by, iirc, Bri, but I don’t trust my memory and forum search works so well). His conclusion was that those two sets were about equally balanced to each other. To my knowledge, no one has ever countered this information — and since this was (again, iirc) before Ferocity, the numbers are probably more in favor of Soldier’s now.
19. Since no one offers numbers to prove their assertions, I default to the explanation which makes the most sense, that ease of use for glass gear in dungeons is fueled by extreme familiarity with the content.
20. Finally, I’d ask, “How difficult are the dungeons in other games after three years of constant play-throughs?” However, those games don’t seem to expect dungeon lifetimes to be that long.

Nyx.7342:

NoTrigger.8396:

Eponet.4829:

The problem isn’t that it’s impossible to avoid everything significant, it’s that it’s easy to. Make the AI less predictable, and you’ll see more diversity. Berserker wasn’t even the most commonly seen set in the last PVP tournament, people were switching to celestial for the added durability, condition damage, and healing power.

if i wanted pve to be as boring as pvp id simply play pvp.

Well he does have a point and thats exactly what they’re supposed to do with HoT, adding in better ai. But yeah it shouldnt push players away from berserker but instead towards becoming better players.

The new pvp meta most people would argue is a bad thing not a good one. Celestial is a somewhat broken amulet allowing people to take a fair amount of hits and deal pretty great damage especially with might. If anything that is a worse meta than having to either sacrifice survivability or sacrifice damage. If cele became meta in pve people would stack even more and just not dodge….

(altho i still think pve is more boring than pvp)

Celestial is only good for classes with access to might stacking.

Let’s not confuse “classes” with engi and ele and possibly warrior. Ranger, necro, mesmer, and guardian are not using celestial. That’s more classes not using celestial than classes using it.

People just like to whine about celestial because some of those builds hardcounter their precious berzerker/condi bunker builds.

“Make attacks faster” – not a good idea given that a lot of people experience lag in this game. You could make the bosses doing attacks that lower the endurance regeneration of the players, with the same effect. But there are plenty of people in this game; a lot of them haven’t played for 2+ years and I don’t think that something like that would encourage them to dodge more.

Zenith.7301:

Celestial is only good for classes with access to might stacking.

Let’s not confuse “classes” with engi and ele and possibly warrior. Ranger, necro, mesmer, and guardian are not using celestial. That’s more classes not using celestial than classes using it.

People just like to whine about celestial because some of those builds hardcounter their precious berzerker/condi bunker builds.

Thief and Guard are the only classes that dont use cele in the meta. The other three classes use celestial and all three were on the final teams in the last tournament. People “whine” about celestial because its a boring and stagnating meta, not everyone likes reward without risk.

Anyways my point was that celestial amulet’s use in pvp isnt really a great sign for how ai can change the meta. Celestial amulet is boring in pvp and will be even more boring in pve where mistakes arent punished as much. Anet’s plan to change ai could either force tankier builds on people or make people wish they had tankier builds because the content is that difficult. If content is difficult but still can be completed with any class and any build that is a sign of good design and a real challenge. Needing to take a tankier stat doesnt make it challenging just costly.

Eponet.4829:

The problem isn’t that it’s impossible to avoid everything significant, it’s that it’s easy to. Make the AI less predictable, and you’ll see more diversity. Berserker wasn’t even the most commonly seen set in the last PVP tournament, people were switching to celestial for the added durability, condition damage, and healing power.

Zerker is rather rare in wvw/pvp anyway, the only thing that pushed zerker in these game modes was the zerker nerf last year, before that you would hardly meet a zerker.
To be honest; I think you guys don’t know what you’re asking for.

Jana.6831:

“Make attacks faster” – not a good idea given that a lot of people experience lag in this game. You could make the bosses doing attacks that lower the endurance regeneration of the players, with the same effect. But there are plenty of people in this game; a lot of them haven’t played for 2+ years and I don’t think that something like that would encourage them to dodge more.

by make attacks faster, they mean make enemies attack more often than once every 4 seconds. perhaps once per second, or once every two seconds.

They arent saying they should have faster animations alone.

phys.7689:

Jana.6831:

“Make attacks faster” – not a good idea given that a lot of people experience lag in this game. You could make the bosses doing attacks that lower the endurance regeneration of the players, with the same effect. But there are plenty of people in this game; a lot of them haven’t played for 2+ years and I don’t think that something like that would encourage them to dodge more.

by make attacks faster, they mean make enemies attack more often than once every 4 seconds. perhaps once per second, or once every two seconds.

They arent saying they should have faster animations alone.

Okay, maybe they meant it like that, but the faster attacks can also be a problem, I still haven’t figured out the right time to dodge the usual jungle wurm as the time from red circle to attack is maybe 0,5 seconds.
A game that’s build around dodging won’t work if you nerf dodging there are a lot of attacks one has to “double dodge” make it triple and I’m dead, no matter whether I’m zerker or soldier’s or celestial.

Eponet.4829:

The problem isn’t that it’s impossible to avoid everything significant, it’s that it’s easy to. Make the AI less predictable, and you’ll see more diversity. Berserker wasn’t even the most commonly seen set in the last PVP tournament, people were switching to celestial for the added durability, condition damage, and healing power.

And they love it so much.

Jana.6831:

Zerker is rather rare in wvw/pvp anyway, the only thing that pushed zerker in these game modes was the zerker nerf last year, before that you would hardly meet a zerker.
To be honest; I think you guys don’t know what you’re asking for.

Zerker is hardly rare, it’s usually 2/5 people running a rare stat combo.

rotten.9753:

Jana.6831:

Zerker is rather rare in wvw/pvp anyway, the only thing that pushed zerker in these game modes was the zerker nerf last year, before that you would hardly meet a zerker.
To be honest; I think you guys don’t know what you’re asking for.

Zerker is hardly rare, it’s usually 2/5 people running a rare stat combo.

I was talking about wvw and pvp and zerker is rather rare in wvw – it’s mostly for roamers if they aren’t eles or necros or engis or mesmers.
And even 2 out of 5 in an organized team is not that common as it was sound to be.

Jana.6831:

And even 2 out of 5 in an organized team is not that common as it was sound to be.

It’s 2 zerkers and 3 celestials most often. There’s no gear stats diversity in PvP so I have no clue why anyone would ever say there is.

rotten.9753:

Jana.6831:

And even 2 out of 5 in an organized team is not that common as it was sound to be.

It’s 2 zerkers and 3 celestials most often. There’s no gear stats diversity in PvP so I have no clue why anyone would ever say there is.

i doubt this, condition builds are real threats in spvp. then tere are often tank style players

Nyx.7342:

Brother Grimm.5176:

This entire thread premise is like saying a car’s steering system allows auto accidents to happen…..
Please never attempt to teach logic to children….

nah i think its like saying a car’s steering system allows people to avoid auto accidents….so we should get rid of it

Yep. Force people to crash. Thatll teach them not to drive without seat belts.

100% accurate, denouttaden.

phys.7689:

i doubt this, condition builds are real threats in spvp. then tere are often tank style players

You can remain doubtful after watching weekly esl cup, pure condition builds are almost not existant.

rotten.9753:

phys.7689:

i doubt this, condition builds are real threats in spvp. then tere are often tank style players

You can remain doubtful after watching weekly esl cup, pure condition builds are almost not existant.

just because nobody uses them in the cup doesn’t mean they arent good.